From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #243 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, April 15 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 243 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Gertrude Stein of music NJC ["hell" ] Re: (no subject)njc [colin ] Re: NAMBLA, njc [colin ] RE: NAMBLA, njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] joni reference [colin ] Re: Ms & Ps NJC ["kakki" ] Re: men and boys... NJC [AzeemAK@aol.com] NJC: NAMBLA, ETC, OHMEOHMY [MGVal@aol.com] RE: Now, how is it Nambla & Joni are related?? ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: sorrow and affectation now njc because I'm sure the joni-onlies would hate this but who am I to speak for them? Nevertheless erring on the side of caution [] Re: Gertrude Stein of music NJC for sure [Susan Guzzi ] Re: quiltbear!!! njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: Now, how is it Nambla & Joni are related?? NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: Gertrude Stein of music NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: Now, how is it Nambla & Joni are related?? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: NJC: NAMBLA, ETC, OHMEOHMY ["Lori Fye" ] (NJC) If I were to join the JMDL today ... ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Gertrude Stein of music NJC for sure [colin ] Re: Now, how is it Nambla & Joni are related?? [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Wan 'o thu gurlz (NJC) [colin ] Re: how is Ginsberg, Dylan, & Joni are related?? [SoulQuest7@aol.com] Re: Gertrude Stein of music NJC for sure [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: I's A Muggin' ["chuty001" ] re Kids and Joni ["Lucy Hone" ] RE: how is Ginsberg, Dylan, & Joni are related?? ["Robert Argento" ] Re: Wan 'o thu gurlz (NJC) [magsnbrei ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #130 "Exxon Blue" [Wiloboy@aol.com] Re: NJC: NAMBLA/OHMEOHMY/NOW WITH CINNAMON ROLL CONTENT [KJHSF@aol.com] daniel lanois' "shine" on streaming audio NJC ["ron" ] Re: NJC: NAMBLA/OHMEOHMY/NOW WITH CINNAMON ROLL CONTENT ["Cynthia Vickery] Re: "Exxon Blue" (njc) ["Lori Fye" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:08:14 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: Gertrude Stein of music NJC Kakki wrote: > IMO, Cass (and Denny also) carried John and Michelle. They could have never > been what they were vocally without Cass. She was the strong voice that the > rest could follow and find inspiration from - indispensable in a group > harmony, and magical in their case. Maybe that's why Joni respected Cass. I certainly wouldn't under-rate John Phillips as a song-writer (not that you said that)! He penned a huge number of hit songs, several of which still get regular air-play 30 years later. He also arranged much of the parts and harmony for their performances - his musical ability was fairly impressive, IMO. But I agree with you on the basis of singing ability, and more so with Michelle! > I thought Kate du Nord's comments were very insightful. I've always been > just like Joni in the sense of always preferring male company. I recall > Joni saying in an interview that she always played with the boys in the > neighborhood from early childhood (but also had her friends Sharon and > Betsy). The two neighborhoods I grew had mostly boys and only one or two > girls. We were all friends but because the boys were in the majority, their > play activities kind of dictated ours on a daily basis. As an adult, I just > find men more fun to hang out with. They are adventurous and one doesn't > get bogged down in the petty competitive, scratchy stuff that a group of > women can sometimes get into. Men have a calming effect on me (maybe it's a > hormonal balancing ;-) I have lifelong best girlfirends, too, but they are > also "guy girls" like me. I had a similar childhood, in that I had very few girls as childhood friends - all the neighbouring kids were boys, so I did "boy" things too, although I preferred that to playing with dolls or any of the other recognised girls activities anyway! One of the biggest joys I can remember is when my mother FINALLY let me wear trousers to school, instead of skirts and dresses! I was also referred to as a tomboy, but I always considered it a good thing! I also have more male friends as an adult than I do female. I prefer the conversations on the whole, ie. sports, music, etc. whereas with the women I know, the conversation inevitably ends in talk about make-up, weddings, babies, fashion, etc. Boring! This can also be the source of some resentment and jealousy when I have such "easy-going" relationships with the guys, and as a result I don't tend to build close friendships with women either - I think they feel threatened, which is strange since I'm obviously not interested in the guys on a sexual level! Hell ___________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman Hell's Home Page - NEW & IMPROVED! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 09:08:03 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: (no subject)njc Aerchak@aol.com wrote: > Colin, > > There you go with your fucking biting sarcasm again . I simply said > that I found the neverending discussion tedious and having been abused > as as child I do not appreciate any amount of intellectualization on > the subject. you are not the only one who has been there. Some of us have intimate knowledge of the subjct and were not intellectualizing. > deciding to go back to joni-only has NOTHING the fuck to do with you. Oh, then why did you inform us? Perhaps, it might be an idea to look at what you write yourself, or how you wirte it. i certainly have never written a post tot he list likethis one,not like many of those you have written. You excused yourself once by saying you are like you are because of 'where you are from'. So it is okay for you to be abrasive and rude but not for nayone else to be gently sarcastic? Has it occurred to you how people may feel about your put downs of what they choose discuss? Probably won't make a jot of difference to you as you quite feel it okay to write in such a manner. bw colin > > > Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 09:11:33 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: NAMBLA, njc Wally Kairuz wrote: >why would oversized vaginas be an offensive thread? to whom would it be >offensive? why would anybody uns*b because of the oversized vaginas thread? >what is the point of your message, jim? >wally > > > more importnatly, wally, why is the subject of child abuse seen as a 'gay' thread? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 05:19:04 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: NAMBLA, njc oh yes, i missed that. w - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de colin Enviado el: Martes, 15 de Abril de 2003 05:12 a.m. Para: Wally Kairuz CC: _JMDL Asunto: Re: NAMBLA, njc Wally Kairuz wrote: >why would oversized vaginas be an offensive thread? to whom would it be >offensive? why would anybody uns*b because of the oversized vaginas thread? >what is the point of your message, jim? >wally > > > more importnatly, wally, why is the subject of child abuse seen as a 'gay' thread? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 09:27:53 +0100 From: colin Subject: joni reference William shrugged.'Oh, we've always been here. This used ot be a commune - - California-dreaming hippies, mind-altering drugs, Joni Mitchell music. Our Parents were hippies. We were isolated from other ways to live and think, so we depended on each toher. My brother and I are unbelievably close. But we're nothing really. we're here to serve the Sire.' Vilets Are Blue(C2001) James Patterson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 00:00:57 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Ms & Ps NJC Hell wrote: > I certainly wouldn't under-rate John Phillips as a song-writer (not that you > said that)! He penned a huge number of hit songs, several of which still > get regular air-play 30 years later. He also arranged much of the parts and > harmony for their performances - his musical ability was fairly impressive, > IMO. But I agree with you on the basis of singing ability, and more so with > Michelle! Absolutely! When I was recently up north visiting JMDL'er Darice she played a an incredible compilation CD of M&P hits and rarities that she got from a trader. It was such a rush - the songs are just as gorgeous today as they were back then. They hold up beautifully. John was definitely a genius that I don't think was fully appreciated until later years. > I had a similar childhood, in that I had very few girls as childhood > friends - all the neighbouring kids were boys, so I did "boy" things too, > although I preferred that to playing with dolls or any of the other > recognised girls activities anyway! I liked playing with dolls, but when the weather is good, why be stuck inside?! It was the boys who showed me the fun stuff like skateboarding, surfiing, skiing, playing cards, Frank Zappa albums.. ;-) > I also have more male friends as an adult than I do female. I prefer the > conversations on the whole, ie. sports, music, etc. whereas with the women I > know, the conversation inevitably ends in talk about make-up, weddings, > babies, fashion, etc. Boring! Some of my women friends are older and past that now but then seem to get stuck in ruts. I say they all need a pack of good male friends to put some snap back into their step! LOL Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 06:05:06 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: men and boys... NJC In a message dated 13/04/2003 10:33:07 GMT Daylight Time, lulu.hone@virgin.net writes: << My stance is always one of absolute concern for the child.. working for a charity that deals extensively with the after affects of abuse, and works hard at trying to prevent it from happening, there can be no excuse for any adult (male of female) to engage in sexual activity with underage children. >> Thanks for this wonderful post Lucy, you have hit every nail squarely on the head. I was uneasy about some of the posts on this subject: while I didn't believe that anyone was promoting sexual abuse of children, I though some of the arguments advanced were giving the benefit of the doubt to NAMBLA, where it seems obvious that, despite the guff about civil liberties and not wanting to stifle young people's sexuality, at the end of the day it is about adult men wanting to fuck young boys and get away with it. As for Allen Kinsberg, I can believe that he may indeed have been a gentle soul who didn't advocate harming anyone. He was certainly a libertarian, and I think libertarians sometimes lose sight of their moral compass, throwing out the baby of essential protection of vulnerable groups with the bathwater of social repression. Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 06:53:25 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: NJC: NAMBLA, ETC, OHMEOHMY My good buddy Lama writes: > Maybe we should start up a really offensive thread by and for heterosexuals. > Are there enough of us on the JMDL to support that? > Now before this goes off into a flame war and while I'm still full throttle into my morning, I'd like to just dash off this quick reply. Back off from this one: all people on all sides. Stop for a second and think that Lama's post is not inspired by a mean streak but more, perhaps, from exasperation. And now, take that one step further and spin it around, (not TOO hard because then you'll get dizzy, throw up and lose the whole thread), and see what we can learn. Welcome to the world of the oppressed! Sure, it may seem that gay threads get gross or go on ad nasuem. Maybe, maybe, this is one rare place that they can go on ad nauseum. Without fear of losing one's job or sullying up a neighborhood reputation. Maybe, maybe this is one rare place where they have the luxury of doing the same hasing/re-hasing that straights may do over their specific topic. Specifically, I think that the very insertion of "boy" in NAMBLA is a very tough area. You'll get survivors and those struggling to survive and those for, those against and those who think that NAMBLA may just be a new variation on the RHUMBA and those who aren't sure if it's the computer thing or the dance itself. The point is, once again, compassion and more compassion. Put it right out there full force if you sense someone who is struggling and maybe return a post with kindness. It seems to me that there are offensive threads based on somewhat inappropriate topics, (ie "how far can you stretch your ding dong without the creame filling messing up the carpet"), to that which is offensive on surface because it's an emotional issue. Certainly NAMBLA counts as in the latter category. Anyhow I've been around enough to know that this can be the start of a nasty backandforth. Wouldn't it be cool if we all stepped back and just went into the kitchen to make some cinnamon rolls? Neither side of the pu-pu platter means to be mean. MG - clearly ready for breakfast ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 07:07:51 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: RE: Now, how is it Nambla & Joni are related?? Can anyone connect Joni to NAMBLA? Six degrees of separation... Victor, just waking up and in need of coffee! Victor Johnson waytoblu@mindspring.com Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" this spring! Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios, Asheville ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 07:12:05 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC: NAMBLA, ETC, OHMEOHMY In a message dated 4/15/03 6:55:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, MGVal@aol.com writes: > Wouldn't it be cool if we all stepped back and just went > into the kitchen to make some cinnamon rolls? yep, that's were I'm headed.... ~rosie In the morning there are lovers in the street They look so high You brush against a stranger And you both apologize ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:15:34 +0100 From: Gordon Mackie Subject: Wan 'o thu gurlz (NJC) Hi Community, Well after reading thru some posts today (u can tell students are off on hols) I thought Id add my tuppence worth ! Re vowels, I'm always fascinated by their use across the world when the english language is used. In the west of scotland we use very hard, short, clipped vowels which most people outside that area have extreme difficulty undertantding. We also have the 'glotal stop' which means letters at the end of words disappear..usually a 't' . The title of the email is 'One of the girls' in west coast dialect. That's how it would sound in local 'speak'. Re being one of the girls, it was always made a probelm for me as a child cos' I always wanted to play with girls. Even as a 'man' I enjoy the social company of women better than men. I would say I have feminist beleifs (amongst other things). This manifests itself in the art I like and I beleive this influences my understanding and enjoyment of La Mitchell. Er..so there... end of what I think.... Gordon PS I also became fascinated by vowels when learning Italian ....i=ee, e= ay etc. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 07:27:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: sorrow and affectation now njc because I'm sure the joni-onlies would hate this but who am I to speak for them? Nevertheless erring on the side of caution --- kerry wrote: > Since spending lots of time with Hell, I've realized > that you can't just > refer to short or long vowels between people with > different accents. It's > also virtually impossible to write words (as you say > them) phonetically, > because they would be pronounced in different ways > depending on who's > speaking. Also the "o" in sorrow is an > "r-controlled" vowel, so it's > different than a short "o." Okay, I'll stop now! > (I deal with this every > day at work, so it's hard to turn off!) > Kerry - excellent point and one I was just thinking about as a matter of fact, geek that I am. English (maybe all languages) has too many differentiations in the way vowels are pronounced, not just from one country to another, but from one town to another, as Lucy recently pointed out. It's not a rigid system of five and only five vowels (and sometimes y). The /r/ in sorrow definitely does affect the vowel ahead of it. (In fact, /r/ is a whole different story.) The first /o/ is different from the second, which takes on a slight diphthong sound due to the /w/ sound (not necessarily the *letter* "w" which just happens to be in that word - rhe /o/ in "hello" is pronounced the same way) that English-speaking people use after the long /o/ (and the "oo" as we pronounce it; same as the long vowels for /a/ /ee/ and /i/ have a /y/ sound after them. There are symbols that linguists use to represent these vowels, but most people don't know them, wouldn't know how to pronounce them without a lot of training, and even they argue amongst themselves as to whether person A is saying it *this* way or *that* way, one of the reasons I gave up on studying linguistics at all, as it started driving me crazy after a while. The point is, we have a lot more than just so-called long and short vowels and these vary depending on where you learned to speak English, where you live, your social class and all kinds of things. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Gertrude Stein of music NJC for sure Ted errored in stating: So do mannish grrrls like susan just halfway kinda take the edge off? ... Ahhhh Teddy? What makes you think I am such a "manish" girl? Don't make me post those bridesmaids pictures of me! LOL! Actually, Tedddy Baby, I chase femmes and butches tend to chase me. This has been a bone of contention with me lately, having to fight for my butchdom, while others argue I am a "tweener" or somewhat (gulp) femme. It's tough being a pretty butch! ;-P And further with another attribute that makes some men go crazy! Actually and officially declaring myself "soft butch" and let let that be the end of that - I AM woman! Just educating the straight boy who is way too interested in my hormone levels! LOL & JK Ted! Peace, Susan oops late for work again ad I haven't even applied my eyeliner yet! LOL! The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 07:33:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Gertrude Stein of music SJC --- kakki wrote: I recall > Joni saying in an interview that she always played > with the boys in the > neighborhood from early childhood (but also had her > friends Sharon and > Betsy). Yes, but don't forget Gail and Louise in their push-up brassieres. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 07:36:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: quiltbear!!! njc --- Wally Kairuz wrote: > who are you quiltbear?? i loved that nickname! > wally LOL. It is very cute, isn't it? And so nice to hear someone pipe up out of the corner with a good post. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 07:40:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Now, how is it Nambla & Joni are related?? NJC Not really. Andrea has a point. Not that people should stop discussing certain things just because someone doesn't like the topic at hand, but I can see where she's coming from. Ironic though, because Colin has been through similar horrible experiences. People just react differently to things, and everyone has their trigger points, that's all. Speaking of poop juice (ick!), CT, your last post wasn't marked NJC so you're probably gonna catch it (catch sh*t) from an njc-er. --- Christopher Treacy wrote: > Geez, more messy stinky nasty poop juice all over > the jmdl. When it rains, > it pours! Stinky, nasty, messy...smelly. > > -CJT > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Cc: ; > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 11:59 PM > Subject: (no subject) > > > > Colin, > > > > There you go with your fucking biting sarcasm > again . I simply said that I > > found the neverending discussion tedious and > having been abused as as > child I > > do not appreciate any amount of > intellectualization on the subject. I > would > > not even dignify myself into entering a dialogue > with any anyone who > might > > think it is ok to have sex with kids. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 07:48:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Ms & Ps NJC --- kakki wrote: > > I liked playing with dolls, but when the weather is > good, why be stuck > inside?! It was the boys who showed me the fun > stuff like skateboarding, > surfiing, skiing, playing cards, Frank Zappa > albums.. ;-) Jeez, you can play with dolls OUTSIDE too, y'know? And what is a GI Joe if not a doll? As for me, I had dolls and a car (just one, but I loved it - I can't remember what kind of car it was - what do you expect from a girl? but it looked like a gangster-movie car). And I loved playing marbles (or allies, alleys?, as we sometimes called them - I was damn good at it too, and I'd often beat the boys at it). ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 07:52:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Gertrude Stein of music NJC --- hell wrote: > I also have more male friends as an adult than I do > female. I prefer the > conversations on the whole, ie. sports, music, etc. > whereas with the women I > know, the conversation inevitably ends in talk about > make-up, weddings, > babies, fashion, etc. Boring! This can also be the > source of some > resentment and jealousy when I have such > "easy-going" relationships with the > guys, and as a result I don't tend to build close > friendships with women > either - I think they feel threatened, which is > strange since I'm obviously > not interested in the guys on a sexual level! I'm in a quandary. I find talking about sports AND makeup and weddings and fashion boring. Who am I supposed to talk to? I guess that's where the jmdl comes in - we talk about everything, and nothing is sacred. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 07:56:23 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Now, how is it Nambla & Joni are related?? In a message dated 4/15/2003 9:07:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, waytoblu@mindspring.com writes: > Can anyone connect Joni to NAMBLA? Six degrees of > separation... From a Ginsberg Bio: "In the early sixties, Ginsberg threw himself into the hippie scene. He and Timothy Leary worked together to publicize Leary's new discovery, the psychedelic drug LSD, and Ginsberg attempted to turn on every famous cultural figure in his address book, including Willem De Kooning, Franz Kline, Dizzy Gillespie, Thelonius Monk, Robert Lowell and Jack Kerouac..." And Dizzy went on to record a nice version of "Both Sides Now". Bob NP: Joni, "Moon At The Window" KSCA 1994 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 05:21:05 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: NJC: NAMBLA, ETC, OHMEOHMY > The point is, once again, compassion and more compassion. Excellent post, Mary Grace. Thank you. > (ie "how far can you stretch your ding dong without the creame > filling messing up the carpet") And I LOVE a good double entendre! Lori ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 05:31:01 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: (NJC) If I were to join the JMDL today ... ... and started receiving the emails of the past few days, I would wonder: "What does any of THAT have to do with Joni Mitchell?" And then I would turn and run as fast and as far as I could in the opposite direction -- and consequently miss out on all the really wonderful people here, and JoniFests, and other good times. I've been here since 1997, and I've always been a huge supporter of the right to post NJC topics. But, keeping the new subscribers in mind, let's try to wander back to Joni, shall we? Surely we haven't exhausted the discussion of "Woman of Heart and Mind" yet! Lori, wanting to get back to the garden ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:49:54 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Gertrude Stein of music NJC I get on much better with women than men. always have done. women talk! and about anything and everything. even with my partner, converstaion can be diffiuclt. he is so economical with his words and sticks to point! veyr hard to keep a converstaion going beyond a few sentences wheeras with a woman we can start talking about, say, the colour of some garment to talking about world peace via sex, life after death, food, diets, sex, space, and men! bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:50:54 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Gertrude Stein of music NJC for sure Susan Guzzi wrote: > >Actually and officially declaring myself "soft butch" > i guess that makes me a hard femme! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 08:51:19 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Now, how is it Nambla & Joni are related?? In a message dated 4/15/2003 7:58:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, SCJoniGuy@aol.com writes: > And Dizzy went on to record a nice version of "Both Sides Now". > Good job Mr. Muller! I knew if anyone could six degrees Joni with NAMBLA, it would be you. I must admit I never had heard of NAMBLA, and when I saw it appear in the subject line, I thought it was an acronym for a Joni song........No Apologies something something something. Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:56:08 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Wan 'o thu gurlz (NJC) Gordon Mackie wrote: > > > Re being one of the girls, it was always made a probelm for me as a > child cos' I always wanted to play with girls. i wonder what would have happened to us boys if there were quite a few of us at the same time who preferred the company of girls. Would we have got on? I think so. As and adult, the best male friends I have had have been men who also preferred women. pity society is so hung up on playing the correct gender role....... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 09:03:23 EDT From: SoulQuest7@aol.com Subject: Re: how is Ginsberg, Dylan, & Joni are related?? In a message dated 4/15/2003 4:57:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time, SCJoniGuy@aol.com writes: > <<<<"In the early sixties, Ginsberg threw himself into the hippie scene. He > and Timothy Leary worked together to publicize Leary's new discovery, the > psychedelic drug LSD, and Ginsberg attempted to turn on every famous > cultural figure in his address book, including Willem De Kooning, Franz > Kline, Dizzy Gillespie, Thelonius Monk, Robert Lowell and Jack Kerouac...">> > I would go further than this. I wouldn't say Ginsberg just "threw himself into" in the hippie movement, I would say he was a prime articulator of hippie spirituality. It's not surprising he ended up with Chogyo Trumpa as a teacher (and as has been noted Joni spent time there as well) since his approach to tantric Buddhism found some sympathy with the counterculture lifestyle experiments. However, someone noted that Joni spent some time at Trumpa's school in Boulder as well, although I think they said that she left amid the controversies surrounding the school. Could that person be more specific? Also, I think that person said they spent some time at the school; any comments from your own personal experience? The school always had its share of controversy mixed in with the Tantric Buddhist teachings. I just thought of another connection. In the PBS documentary, Joni said she was highly influenced by Dylan's narrative lyrical style. She said, "this was the key; now we could write about anything." However, it seems obvious that Dylan was influenced by the Beat poets (Ginsberg, Keroreac, etc), and Ginsberg even did a cameo appearance in one of Dylan's early videos (title?). The Beat poets and novelists were the pioneers of an almost stream-of-consciousness style of writing that served to subversively (I use that term affectionately) inject taboo topics into the culture. Remember that Ginsberg was taken to court for obscenity after the publisher printed his epic poem "Howl." (Actually, it was probably the publisher that was taken to court, right? Ferlinghetti? ) =-= om==- Nick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 09:08:56 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Gertrude Stein of music NJC for sure In a message dated 15/04/2003 13:51:47 GMT Daylight Time, colin@tantra-apso.com writes: Susan Guzzi wrote: << Actually and officially declaring myself "soft butch" >> To which Colin added: << i guess that makes me a hard femme! >> Hmm, where does that leave me? I have more female friends than male, and like the fact that I can talk about all sorts of stuff with women that some men don't readily talk about. I can feel very intimidated by aggressively macho men. And since I got into the world of counselling (both as client and now as a practitioner) I am meeting more guys who can converse about matters of the heart, which is great - they do exist, even hetero ones, honest! At the same time, my girlfriend considers me rather dry! Then again, I also love sport, and sometimes pine for people I can natter with about cricket, rugby, football etc - the sort of sad people (like me) who might get up at 6.00am to watch a rugby match beamed live from New Zealand, and with whom I can debate whether Michael Holding or Dennis Lillee is the greatest fast bowler of my lifetime. So, let me see, I must be a soft-macho-touchy-feely-dry-guy. Aren't labels great?? Azeem in London NP: Morphine - Cure For Pain ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 09:25:15 -0400 From: "chuty001" Subject: Re: I's A Muggin' > I've done a couple of pictures/drawings using this method, ie. working from > a photograph, but I always felt it to be a little "plagiaristic" if I didn't > take the picture myself. Especially since I consider (as I assume most > people do) that photography is an art-form in itself. I guess if she had > the permission of the photographer it's OK, but where would you draw the > line? I know they're entirely different mediums, and the end results are > quite different, but the painting is definitely derived directly from that > photograph. > > Hell So if I write a song about the photo or an essay is this plagiarism? It's derived directly from the photo. If I take the photo and cut it into little pieces and glue it all back together in a random order is that plagiarism? I like to draw from photos, people tell me they look just like the photo, but if you put the photo and drawing side by each you will find they're very different. I've worked from many professionals photos some that I've known (I come from a family of photographers) I have never had a photographer that wasn't flattered by my work. The typical response I get from them is that I have far more freedom as an artist to capture the subject then they do. I've worked as a photographer and found it a pain to get the photo I was after, but I found it easy to take a photo I wasn't happy with and draw it the way I felt it should look. So Hell I'd say I draw the line where ever I please, and most are quite happy where ever I chose to draw it. Have a nice day Chuck ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:29:26 +0100 From: "Lucy Hone" Subject: re Kids and Joni My kids are really into music of all sorts but are starting to Joni it a bit. I was totally gratified to hear them slate the Counting Crowes version of BYT as no where near as good as the original done by "that woman you like so much mum".... YEAH! I will get them in the end! Lucy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 09:37:46 -0400 From: "Robert Argento" Subject: RE: how is Ginsberg, Dylan, & Joni are related?? When I said that Joni left the Naropa Institute in Boulder, I didn't mean to imply that she left because of contraversies. Many people passed through Boulder those days. Some stay and studied. Some of us just observed and moved on. Myself, I was sceptical to the Man and his way, thought not the basic philodsophy. There were, in MY eyes, a lot of excesses going on in which I saw inconsistancies with the teachings. Others, obviously, didnt agree. There is room for many different opinions in the World. Chvgyam Trumpa "held court" and people sat around and listened. Joni, being who she was, was obviously able to get up close for a while, faster than others who would have to work their way up through the theocracy. Why Joni left? I dont know. I get the feeling that she was just passing through. What she writes about it in Refuge of the Roads certainly doesnt express disappointment or bitterness - but merely "moving on". Check out the lyrics again. While I didnt meet Trumpa personally, I sort of got the same feeling when it was time for me to move on. If anyone really wants the answer, why not just ask Joni? Robban > -----Original Message----- > From: les@jmdl.com [mailto:les@jmdl.com] On Behalf Of > SoulQuest7@aol.com > Sent: den 15 april 2003 09:03 > To: SCJoniGuy@aol.com; waytoblu@mindspring.com; joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: how is Ginsberg, Dylan, & Joni are related?? > > > In a message dated 4/15/2003 4:57:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > SCJoniGuy@aol.com writes: > > > > <<<<"In the early sixties, Ginsberg threw himself into the hippie > > scene. He > > and Timothy Leary worked together to publicize Leary's new > discovery, the > > psychedelic drug LSD, and Ginsberg attempted to turn on > every famous > > cultural figure in his address book, including Willem De > Kooning, Franz > > Kline, Dizzy Gillespie, Thelonius Monk, Robert Lowell and > Jack Kerouac...">> > > > > I would go further than this. I wouldn't say Ginsberg just > "threw himself > into" in the hippie movement, I would say he was a prime > articulator of > hippie spirituality. It's not surprising he ended up with > Chogyo Trumpa as a > teacher (and as has been noted Joni spent time there as well) > since his > approach to tantric Buddhism found some sympathy with the > counterculture > lifestyle experiments. > However, someone noted that Joni spent some time at > Trumpa's school in > Boulder as well, although I think they said that she left amid the > controversies surrounding the school. Could that person be > more specific? > Also, I think that person said they spent some time at the > school; any > comments from your own personal experience? The school > always had its share > of controversy mixed in with the Tantric Buddhist teachings. > I just thought of another connection. In the PBS > documentary, Joni said > she was highly influenced by Dylan's narrative lyrical style. > She said, > "this was the key; now we could write about anything." > However, it seems > obvious that Dylan was influenced by the Beat poets > (Ginsberg, Keroreac, > etc), and Ginsberg even did a cameo appearance in one of > Dylan's early videos > (title?). The Beat poets and novelists were the pioneers of > an almost > stream-of-consciousness style of writing that served to > subversively (I use > that term affectionately) inject taboo topics into the > culture. Remember > that Ginsberg was taken to court for obscenity after the > publisher printed > his epic poem "Howl." (Actually, it was probably the > publisher that was > taken to court, right? Ferlinghetti? ) =-= om==- Nick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 10:19:44 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Now, how is it Nambla & Joni are related?? In a message dated 4/15/2003 7:51:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, FMYFL writes: > I must admit I never had heard of NAMBLA Nor had I, Jimmy...I was just trying to inject a bit o' Joni! And in reference to Lori's well-timed reminder about why we should be here in the first place, and since you have ALL 39 volumes of the covers series, what are some of your favorite BSN's? (Of course anyone can chime in...) It's hard to beat Lydia van Dam's for a quiet one, and I love Jason Faulkner's rowdy one. Bob NP: "Love's Cries/Crazy Cries Of Love" KSCA 10/25/94 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 10:45:16 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: I's A Muggin' Hell writes: << I find it interesting that Joni used this method, because it may mean she uses it quite frequently in developing her art-work/paintings. I always assumed she took photographs herself, and worked from those - meaning that she was "composing" the picture when she took it. >> I think she works both ways, Hell. For example: the painting of the burning WTC buildings. I seem to remember that Joni told Kakki and Stephen that she took photos first from her TV before painting that piece. But then at the time, photos of that scene were everywhere, so she could have used her photos and others. << But this one was obviously not taken by her (since she's in it) - I assume it was taken by Sue Mingus? >> That's right. --Bobi (my new persona) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 15:49:38 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Gertrude Stein of music NJC for sure AzeemAK@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 15/04/2003 13:51:47 GMT Daylight Time, >colin@tantra-apso.com writes: > >Susan Guzzi wrote: > ><< Actually and officially declaring myself "soft butch" >> > >To which Colin added: > ><< i guess that makes me a hard femme! >> > >Hmm, where does that leave me? > plain str8? I am sure I could discuss the attributes of NZ rugger players with you but I think we'd be coming from different perspectives.... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 10:57:26 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: sorrow and affectation - NJC Hell writes: << I won't mention "someone's" attempts at Jonifest 2001, to repeat a certain phrase about a dog-like Australian mammal and their dietary habits with regards to infants of human extraction..... >> Bette Midler? --Bobi ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 08:14:07 -0700 From: "theodore" Subject: FW: Gertrude Stein of music NJC for sure I got your tweener ... Have a good day, Souxsie, actually I don't do the chase thing, not my style, a boy's got to keep a little dignity, but, good luck with that, and don't "Teddy Baby" me I'm not one of your little femme bots, eyeliner! Do you pad your bra too? Respectfully yours, Mr.Friedman "button your lip baby, button your coat, let's go out dancing, let's rock and roll. Cause you're not the only ship adrift on this ocean, you're not the only one, with mixed emotions." Rolling Stones "asked my mother for 15 cents, to see an elephant jump the fence, he jumped so high, touched the sky, didn't get back until a quarter to five, walking the dog, just a walking the dog, if you don't know how to do it, I'll show you how to walk the dog." Some Old Blues Guy - -----Original Message----- From: Susan Guzzi [mailto:groovchacha@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 4:32 AM To: joni@smoe.org; theodore@buckfush.org Subject: Re: Gertrude Stein of music NJC for sure Ted errored in stating: So do mannish grrrls like susan just halfway kinda take the edge off? ... Ahhhh Teddy? What makes you think I am such a "manish" girl? Don't make me post those bridesmaids pictures of me! LOL! Actually, Tedddy Baby, I chase femmes and butches tend to chase me. This has been a bone of contention with me lately, having to fight for my butchdom, while others argue I am a "tweener" or somewhat (gulp) femme. It's tough being a pretty butch! ;-P And further with another attribute that makes some men go crazy! Actually and officially declaring myself "soft butch" and let let that be the end of that - I AM woman! Just educating the straight boy who is way too interested in my hormone levels! LOL & JK Ted! Peace, Susan oops late for work again ad I haven't even applied my eyeliner yet! LOL! The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 06:34:02 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Ms & Ps NJC Catherine wrote: > Jeez, you can play with dolls OUTSIDE too, y'know? My friend Ginny and I tried that a few times. The dolls ended up being taken hostage by the boys playing GI Joe and her dog thought they were chew toys. And I had one doll trunk run over by a lawnmower. ;-) We did dress up the cats occasionally, though LOL Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 09:35:44 -0700 (PDT) From: magsnbrei Subject: Re: Wan 'o thu gurlz (NJC) as wan 'o thu gurlz, i wore pants, i rode my bike, and dug down deep with my fingernails, into the corner of the back yard in search of other lands. i made roads and bridges out of dirt and played cars with my brothers. i ended up hanging out with the neighbourhood boys on the street too..they were more ruffNtumble .. like me, willing to get down and dirty at our play, rather than being stuck indoors playing dollies and tea set. *yawn* i spent my days running around, out and about in the fields or on my bike, riding into the wind. i wore scraped scabby knees like medals. a favourite haunt ... the vast lands that lay out for miles before me. the farmer's fields and especially the grand old barn on my aunt's farm. even went so far as to climb up and down the makeshift wooden ladders high up into the loft and jump off the edge, landing on mounds of freshly cut hay. i can still smell the sweet grass...mmmm. As i grew older, i did have a few girlfriends, but much like elaine in margaret atwood's cat's eye, i was often intimidated by them, silenced by them. i stood back and watched, and yet, i didnt understand the never ending changing of the rules...one minute they hated me, the next, they thought i was the best thing going .... i value the friendships i share with males so much. there is a very unique and special bond/dynamic between men and women who are friends, charged up with a little bit of electricity . today, i still wear pants. i also wear black doc marten boots (aka army boots :P) even in the summer months, and i'm often known to wear funky earrings ;P . i still have male friends and I love that. two of which ive been very close pals with since our 20's. a rare and special history shared there. like brothers and more. I love the gay male friends I have because the sexual attraction doesnt get in the way...there is a warmth and an affection that i hold near and dear to my heart. although, I have been attracted to gay males. ;-) It feels almost safer . (in my experience). last but not le! ast, my precious jewels, the amazing friendships i share with women, lezz, bi, straight and anything and everything inbetween... i wouldnt trade for all the tea in canada. and then there's the unique incredible combination of all of the above that i share with honeyboi . life is grand isnt it. there you have it...a little insight into La Mags. Gordon Mackie wrote:thanks Gordon for your inspiring post..... Re being one of the girls, it was always made a probelm for me as a child cos' I always wanted to play with girls. Even as a 'man' I enjoy the social company of women better than men. I would say I have feminist beleifs (amongst other things). This manifests itself in the art I like and I beleive this influences my understanding and enjoyment of La Mitchell. Er..so there... end of what I think.... You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:22:17 -0400 From: Wiloboy@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #130 "Exxon Blue" I enjoyed reading everyone's posts about Exxon Blue, Since Joni says it's not important what it means to her but what it means to the listener, I think all your interpretations are right! I just put the words "Exxon Blue" into google, not much came up, mostly "Passion Play" itself. Then I thought why not try "Esso Blue" Some of you may remember Exxon use to be called Esso. All kinds of stuff came up. Seems there was an industrial color called Esso Blue. It appears they even used it in their advertising. If I remember right their sign was a white oval outlined in blue with Esso in the middle also blue. Found this on Esso Ireland's page: "Throughout the years Esso has introduced a wide range of distinctive products to Ireland such as "Esso Blue" which was in fact paraffin, but the success of the advertising campaign was such that people no longer asked for paraffin, they asked for "Esso Blue"." Also found this tidbit on a Sting/Police discussion: "did anyone notice that the studio recording of "Message in a bottle" has an > official end? Turn the volume up and the instruments stop playing, then Sting > sings / says "sending out an S.O.blue". I don't know if I dreamt this but I > might have read somewhere that this was to be "Esso blue". Does anyone > remember any advertising that had this expression?" Thought you might find this interesting, Wil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:22:26 EDT From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC: NAMBLA/OHMEOHMY/NOW WITH CINNAMON ROLL CONTENT In a message dated 4/15/2003 6:55:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, MGVal@aol.com writes: > Wouldn't it be cool if we all stepped back and just went > into the kitchen to make some cinnamon rolls? Neither side of the pu-pu > platter means to be mean. > Just who the hell do you think you are bringing up cinnamon rolls so insensitively? I am a cinnamon roll addict survivor, and I can't believe your casual attitude in bringing this up. We used to be called cinnamon roll victims, but the politically correct term is "people living with cinnamon rolls." You really display a careless, callous attitude which I believe warrants being banned from the list. Don't you realize that I wake up every day thinking about cinnabuns and cinnamon rolls and those delicious Pillsbury cinnamon rolls with orange frosting that you bake yourself and that come out of the oven all hot and tasty and dripping with orange glaze and so you eat one and then the next and then the next and then all of a sudden, you realize that you've eaten them all. OK, just kidding. Actually, what is interesting to me is being able to sit back and observe these flare-ups on the jmdl. Sometimes, I become embroiled in them. But when I don't, it's fascinating to watch the archetypal behavior play itself out through other members. It gives you the opportunity to view your own behavioral patterns through an impersonal lens, and I find that fascinating. Ken PS I was really just kidding about the cinnamon roll stuff. really. I swear. I don't like them at all. Never touch em. Ever. Not once. I don't even know what they are. Honest. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 19:31:57 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: daniel lanois' "shine" on streaming audio NJC hi for those who may be interested and have the necessary bandwidth: daniel lanois' new album - "shine" is available on streaming audio at the following link: http://www.anti.com/news.php?newsid=86677 and can anybody that does listen to it, or has already heard it elsewhere please let the rest of us know how it is.......... and for anyone lese who may be interested - michelle shockeds reworked version of texas campfire tapes - now retitled texas campfire takes, remastered at the correct speed, and expaanded to a double album will also be released soon and can be pre ordered from www.villagerecords.com ron np - steve baker - pw botha a trance mix (got my whole desk rattling :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:24:47 -0500 From: "Cynthia Vickery" Subject: Re: NJC: NAMBLA/OHMEOHMY/NOW WITH CINNAMON ROLL CONTENT <> though ours is a program of attraction rather than promotion, i thought you might be interested in the following: http://www.CinnamonRollersAnonymous_12.com/ remember - "Easy Doughs It." cindy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 10:33:01 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: "Exxon Blue" (njc) > Some of you may remember Exxon use to be called Esso. I do, although I recall Esso stations being found mostly in Canada. "Esso" is phoenetic for S.O., or Standard Oil. The U.S. equivalent was Sohio, which had the exact same sign as Esso except the word in the center was Sohio (Standard of Ohio). Lori ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #243 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)