From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #240 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, April 14 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 240 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #234 -- NAMBLA, etc. NJC [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: The hissing njc JMDL Digest V2003 #232 ["kakki" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #234 -- NAMBLA, etc. NJC [colin ] Re: i as a boy NJC [colin ] Re: The "real" Joni ["kakki" ] Re: Joni and the young women folk ["kakki" ] Re: spirituality & Joni [Jerry Notaro ] suburbs [Dave Cuneo ] RE: i as a boy NJC ["Lucy Hone" ] Re: I's A Muggin' [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: spirituality & Joni [SoulQuest7@aol.com] Re: Joni and the young women folk [Jerry Notaro ] Re: suburbs [Little Bird ] Re: suburbs/davies lyrics -- NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: suburbs/davies lyrics -- NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] Meaningless s3x (Was RE: i as a boy) NJC ["Chris Marshall" ] sexual awareness NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: sorrow and affectation [magsnbrei ] kittys njc ["ron" ] RE: kittys njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: sexual awareness NJC ["Lori Fye" ] Re: sorrow and affectation [Little Bird ] Re: i as a boy NJC ["Blair Fraipont" ] Re: sorrow and affectation [FMYFL@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 03:03:51 EDT From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #234 -- NAMBLA, etc. NJC I didn't mean to imply any person or persons on this list are homophobic. My point was that society in general would, to a degree, see the NAMBLA situation through a homophobic filter. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 23:48:03 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: The hissing njc JMDL Digest V2003 #232 Eryl wrote: > kakki wrote: > > > "Grass is preferred" > > Typical of Americans. The Mediteranian style garden with gravel and succulents > and other drought tolerant plants would need a lot less maintanance wnd would > be more environmentally friendly. Well on second thought, people in SoCal aren't all that horrible environmental-wise. Most of the older houses come with grass, but the yards are not large like in other parts of the country. I'd say a good deal of the homes have a healthly quantity of succulents and rocks and concrete and definitely follow the Mediterranean style because of the climate. My parents' (always pesticide free) small yards had a just a bit of grass and the rest was rocks, succulents, palm and eucalytus trees (but they also splurged a bit on flowers). During one drought back in the 80s, there was a drive to get people to convert to drought tolerant landscaping. I know of people in Northern Cal who also changed their landscaping at the time. And the water bills are not cheap! Kakki (likes the term "typical American" when it is a positive connotation ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 00:15:31 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Joni on American Masters ... Lama wrote: > By pausing on Mr. Guerin, Lacy *did* give us HOSL. I've never heard a > thread about what Guerin brought or didn't bring to the stew. We've never > discussed him like we have the CSN(Y) vowels, the JT angle as "Boston Jim", > the Don Alias quote "Don & me we look up on the awning- it says "Pork Pie > Hat Bar'." > > Is Guerin a jazzer? I posted about meeting him at a small show here a couple years ago. He is just about the most incredible drummer I have ever seen/heard. He's a jazzer and everything else. We talked at the bar during the break. He sort of bragged about co-writing Hissing - I gathered that the music side was pretty much all his on that song. (And now, writing like Kakki ;-) I wasn't very impressed with him on the Joni content side. Didn't give much credit to Joni and gave the impression that her output during that time was all because of him. But he is an astounding drummer and musician. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 08:39:11 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #234 -- NAMBLA, etc. NJC BRYAN8847@aol.com wrote: > I My point was that society in general would, to a degree, see the > NAMBLA situation through a homophobic filter. that is certainly true, Bryan. > > > Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 08:42:50 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Subject: joni connections njc Lama-Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: >Or as Colin himself might say, "Yes it's true. I mate dogs. Professionally." > > > although I am a professional in terms of knowledge and how I care for them, my dogs are a hobby, my passion, my love. I don't make any money whatsoever form them. Their upkeep costs me more than i ever get back. It is of ocurse possible to make money from them-have loads of bicthes bred twice a year, and not give a damn who you selel the offspring too, put the too ldd bitches down, don't do testing for genetic faults, don't care which two dogs you mate together etc. they are claled Puppy Farms(or mills) or backyard breeders who have a litter to buy a new washingmachine.... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 08:46:04 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: i as a boy NJC Wally Kairuz wrote: > me a reputation as a >disturbed person or a degenerate. > I didn't read antyhing here that would elad me to that conclusion, Wally. Having read it, I can see your feelings clearly. I am still glad this man was responsible and didn't abuse you. I do wonder how you knew about the sex stuff at this age. love colin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 01:37:31 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: The "real" Joni Andrew wrote: > Famous people don't owe us anything just like we don't > owe it to them to be forever loyal. And assuming we > could ever know the "real" Joni is a bit far fetched. Great points. I don't know how I'd feel if she acted arrogant or rude the first time I saw her perform live. I probably would be disappointed. Most artists I've seen have seemed naturally engaged with their audience or at least put up a good front. Quite a few people on the list have either known her or met her in the early days or have met her in the past few years at her art shows, after concerts or here and there. Every account written here has been 100% positive and consistent as to her approachability, warmth and friendliness. She does like to talk a lot and I have always thought the reason she sometimes might sound arrogant in written interviews is because only snippets of her conversation get included and are often probably reported out of context. She also comes across as honest, witty and has a sense of humor. I think a lot can get lost in interpretation if one only reads the words but can't see the twinkle in her eye or hear the joking tone in her voice. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 02:25:48 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Joni and the young women folk Kate wrote: > shawn colvin is up there, imo...i don't know if joni ever has said anything > about shawn but she contributed a teensy bit to shawn's fat city album (with > klein producing) She has spoken very positively about Shawn a few times in interviews. She also likes Julia Fordham and helped set her up with Klein as a producer. And recall that she recently gave big kudos to Norah Jones, too. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 08:53:35 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: spirituality & Joni I think she mentions all these influences because she reads so much about philosophy and theology. But I don't think she follows any of them as a regimen. Jerry SoulQuest7@aol.com wrote: >I've heard spirituality mentioned a few times on this since I joined a week >ago. I'm very interested in the topic of pop music and spirituality. Does >anyone know what Joni is into? I just watched some Joni videos sent to me via >the Joni tree, and I heard her mention influences such as Krishnamurti (an >independent philosopher who was raised in the Theosophica Society), Chungyo >Trumpa (the Tibetan Buddhist teacher who inspired Allen Ginsberg), and Joseph >Campbell (a mythologist interested in interfaith studies). I even heard her >make an odd reference to Scientology in one of her early appearances on the >BBC. Was she ever involved in that sect? If anyone knows anything, let me >know. ==- om==- Nick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:11:08 -0400 From: Dave Cuneo Subject: suburbs Ciao Joniphiles, I grew up in New York City and now live in the "suburbs" of Wilmington, DE. I love it! I hate the city. I love having a garage with an automatic opener, a lawn and garden, a house that is way too big for just me, a cellar where I can keep all my vino. Suburbs rule, dudes. "But I love that Joni spears that perfect suburban image and roasts it on her patio BBQ for everyone to see! By 1975 it was about time..." Hey, the Monkees beat her to it with "Pleasant Valley Sunday" and the Kinks did an early song about this topic too but I don't remember the name of it. Ciao, dave. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 14:32:23 +0100 From: "Lucy Hone" Subject: RE: i as a boy NJC Wally you are so very brave and so very honest. Your own account of your own feelings is very moving and you argue your case eloquently and with passion. May I just say you were never on trial... not in my book.... My off list reply to you, I hope, explains to you my feelings about sexuality and children and why I hold the stance I do. Your own story is exactly that, and your own feelings of peace about how things were does give pause for thought and reflection, but I can only say that you are, in my experience, in the minority. I could be proven wrong.. but I still have to acknowledge that for the majority of young people the involvement of an adult in their sexual life below the age of consent is usually one of abuse or of less than honest and loving intent. What hangs in the air here is that the issue is gargantuan and open to personal experience and debate. But what also must be paramount is that children be allowed to be children and not be burdened with the manipulative and clever attentions of the depraved and vile desires of the truly despicable peadophile community. I do agree that children need to be able to discuss their sexual feelings openly and in our household that is a subject that is not taboo, but neither do we have scheduled "time to discuss where you are with your sexuality". My children both know I am open to talk and debate and they can, and do, talk to me about everything. They are well aware of the dangers out there and, thus armed with the knowledge that life can be rather dangerous if you are not careful and informed enough to say NO and keep safe, I feel fairly hopeful that they will have a healthy and happy attitude to sex. Lets face it, sex is a great thing to share with someone whom you really like. But let it be a kind and happy thing, not some debased and debauched act for the sexual gratifiaction of others. Mutuality, respect and a duty of care from one to the other should be the minimum benchmark, and no bounds gone beyond without those three things in place... TO Empower young people with that sense of self would be a good place to be in society ... how the hell do we get there? Wally you are a valuable and wonderful person... and of your entire and wonderful post this is what touched me START QUOTE "i would never be so stupid as to make a generalization or attempt to change the rules of the world because of my case. but my case counts, and as it was, the loss of this man marked my soul forever in a way that was painful and permanent. EDIT i only know about the way i love and the way i have loved. wally END QUOTE Maybe he did you a favour in that you recognise love and emotional feelings rather than just lust...... Lucy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:36:52 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: I's A Muggin' Hell writes: << I was browsing the JMDL articles today, and found something interesting (at least I thought it was.....) >> Darn you to heck, Hell! I just "discovered" the same thing last week, but hadn't written about it! But my source for the photo was the Sue Mingus book about Charles. (I think it's called "Every Night at Noon.") Take care, --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:37:04 EDT From: SoulQuest7@aol.com Subject: Re: spirituality & Joni In a message dated 4/14/2003 5:57:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time, notaro@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu writes: > < about philosophy and theology. But I don't think she follows any of them > as a regimen.>>> > Yes, but reading a lot about theology says a lot about her spirituality, especially if Joseph Campbell is a major influence. He was very influenced by the Upanishads, a set of Hindu scriptures that he said placed the emphasis on internal mystical experience. He believed, in a similar way to people like Aldous Huxley and Huston Smith, that there was a core wisdom to many world religions, and that at the point of mysticism they converge. This would make sense considering the comments I heard by Joni on the TV show. In fact, she seem to be saying basically the same thing. I'll have to listen to it again at some point, and will quote it on the list. -=== om--- Nick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:41:32 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Joni and the young women folk kakki wrote: > > >She has spoken very positively about Shawn a few times in interviews. She >also likes Julia Fordham and helped set her up with Klein as a producer. >And recall that she recently gave big kudos to Norah Jones, too. > > This is wonderful to know, Kakki. I have often heard Shawn speak in the most glowing terms about Joni. Julia is a fave of mine and she played for our Pridefest here last year. And I'm glad that Norah gets the nod from Joni, considering all the hype, hoopla, and chart success surrounding her. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 10:03:18 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: suburbs -- NJC << the Kinks did an early song about this topic too but I don't remember the name of it. >> Hmm. Seems to me the Kinks did lots of songs about (British) middle-class issues. (And even more about working-class stuff.) Ray Davies is always sadly overlooked -- in my opinion -- whenever great modern lyricists are discussed. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 10:25:27 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: suburbs -- NJC Now Ray Davies In a message dated 4/14/2003 9:03:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, Murphycopy writes: > Ray Davies is always sadly > overlooked -- in my opinion -- whenever great modern > lyricists are discussed. You're very right, Bob...The Beatles & Stones get the lion's share of the attention, but Ray Davies & The Kinks are right up there with them imo. Of my many favorites of Davies' work is a later song called "Art Lover", which sort of dovetails with the pedophile threads of late. At first it appears to be another leering dirty old man song, until the hook lines which I marked with **, after which it proves to be very touching, though I suppose that could vary depending on one's interpretation of the lyric. Sunday afternoon there's something special It's just like another world. Jogging in the park is my excuse To look at all the little girls. I'm not a flasher in a rain coat, I'm not a dirty old man, I'm not gonna snatch you from your mother, I'm an art lover. Come to daddy, Ah, come to daddy, Come to daddy. Pretty little legs, I want to draw them, Like a Degas ballerina. Pure white skin, like porcelain, She's a work of art and I should know I'm an art lover. Come to daddy, And I'll give you some spangles. Little girl don't notice me Watching as she innocently plays. She can't see me staring at her Because I'm always wearing shades. She feeds the ducks, looks at the flowers. I follow her around for hours and hours. I'd take her home, but that could never be, She's just a substitute ** For what's been taken from me. ** Ah, come to daddy, come on. Sunday afternoon can't last forever, Wish I could take you home. So, come on, give us a smile Before you vanish out of view. I've learned to appreciate you The way art lovers do, And I only want to look at you. Bob NP: Joni & Klein, "Lakota", San Remo, Italy 10/22/88 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 08:33:30 -0600 From: twoshoes@sasktel.net Subject: Gertrude Stein of music from Les's interview with Joni: > But arrogance? No, I think it could be better described as confidence. Mmm hmmm. Confidence in a woman is often construed as arrogance. Confidence in a man is simply expected. There was talk of the few women in Joni's life, how she likes to be one of the boys. This could be an unconscious aligning with the sex that is seen as more powerful, more highly regarded, etc., and is quite common. Homey example: For a feminist daughter, "You are just like your dad!" is seen as a compliment, because what males have/had/are in this culture is considered worthy. "You're just like your mom" would be much less desirable. I was one of those daughters, before I realized why I was thinking that way. Who wants to be like a woman, without the power and respect men claim(ed) without question in a society like ours? For a woman to be 'one of the boys' and admired and respected by them is/was considered (especially in Joni's generation, though this wouldn't always be a conscious attitude) a step up on the rung of social position. Boys are still commonly insulted by being called a 'girl.' But it doesn't work the other way around. Exceptions abound, of course. But this is what I think every time I see Joni seeming to be proud to be 'one of the boys.' No offence fellas, but that should not be a compliment to any woman. Have you ever heard of a man who bragged about being 'one of the girls'? I haven't. Kate - -- http://xoetc.antville.org Who does she think she is, Anaos Nin? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 10:44:11 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: Gertrude Stein of music In a message dated 4/14/2003 9:33:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, twoshoes@sasktel.net writes: > Have you ever heard of a man who bragged about being 'one > of the girls'? > > I haven't. Then you haven't been on THIS LIST long enough, Kate - LOL!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 10:44:22 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: Gertrude Stein of music In a message dated 4/14/2003 9:33:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, twoshoes@sasktel.net writes: > Have you ever heard of a man who bragged about being 'one > of the girls'? > > I haven't. Then you haven't been on THIS LIST long enough, Kate - LOL!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 07:47:09 -0700 From: "theodore" Subject: RE: suburbs -- NJC "Well he got his job got drunk and then he stumbled down the stairs, from that day our boy has had a bit more than his share ... one of these days I'm going to knock him off his throne, he's got a house in the country and a big sports car" House in the Country "I won't take clothes that are hand me downs, I don't smile cause I wear a frown, Once I get going you can't hold me down, Once I get started I go to town, Cause I'm not like everybody else, No I'm not like everybody else ...and I don't want to sit and cry like everybody else, and I don't want to go through life like everybody else, cause I'm not like everybody else." Everybody Else " yes yes yes It's my autumn almanac" "I was born lucky me, in a land that I love, in this land I am free, Victoria was my queen." Victoria "let's all drink to the death of a clown." "come on let the music get you moving, come on let me see that you're not losing, check the clock is getting late now, get your coat and fix your face... and come on now, baby come on now, its getting late we better go" "I got a girl and she is fine, she's got everything, pretty ribbons in her hair, crazy clothes and she don't care, what's she got everything. All of the guys just stop and stare, she's got everything, I ain't got a dime and she don't care, sh's got everything, what she got? everything." "I get up and I see the sun, and I feel good cause my life has begun, you and me we're free, we do as we please, from morning til the end of the day." "it is time for you to laugh instead of crying, it is time for you stop all of your sobbing, if there's one thing you gotta do, to make me still want you ... gotta stop sobbing, now." Oh yes my friend I am a very big fan of the kinks. The tune he was thinking of was "well respected man." You can't plug Ray like that without mentioning his brother Dave. You Really Got Me, I Need You, this is just intense frenzied lead guitar work, no one has ever come close to. Dave's driving, relentless rhythm's were almost directly responsible for the sexual revolution in Britain, the man broke new ground and expanded people's minds. Even listening to these songs today they warp your reality and let you glimpse a realm only Dave Davie's can channel. Ted "And I don't need no friends, as long as I gaze on waterloo sunset, I am in paradise, jenny, jenny, it's evening time, waterloo sunset's fine." - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com] On Behalf Of Murphycopy@aol.com Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 7:03 AM To: CuneoDM@XYMID.com; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: suburbs -- NJC << the Kinks did an early song about this topic too but I don't remember the name of it. >> Hmm. Seems to me the Kinks did lots of songs about (British) middle-class issues. (And even more about working-class stuff.) Ray Davies is always sadly overlooked -- in my opinion -- whenever great modern lyricists are discussed. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 08:08:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: suburbs Dave wrote: "Hey, the Monkees beat her to it with 'Pleasant Valley Sunday' and the Kinks did an early song about this topic too but I don't remember the name of it." Hence the reason we all know that Joni did it best! love Andrew Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:20:26 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: suburbs/davies lyrics -- NJC Some Ray Davies lyrics about the middle class: SHANGRI-LA Now that you've found your paradise This is your Kingdom to command You can go outside and polish your car Or sit by the fire in your Shangri-la Here is your reward for working so hard Gone are the lavatories in the back yard Gone are the days when you dreamed of that car You just want to sit in your Shangri-la Put on your slippers and sit by the fire You've reached your top and you just can't get any higher You're in your place and you know where you are In your Shangri-la Sit back in your old rocking chair You need not worry, you need not care You can't go anywhere Shangri-la, Shangri-la, Shangri-la The little man who gets the train Got a mortgage hanging over his head But he's too scared to complain 'Cos he's conditioned that way Time goes by and he pays off his debts Got a TV set and a radio For seven shillings a week Shangri-la, Shangri-la, Shangri-la, Shangri-la, Shangri-la, Shangri-la And all the houses in the street have got a name 'Cos all the houses in the street they look the same Same chimney pots, same little cars, same window panes The neighbors call to tell you things that you should know They say their lines, they drink their tea, and then they go They tell your business in another Shangri-la The gas bills and the water rates, and payments on the car Too scared to think about how insecure you are Life ain't so happy in your little Shangri-la Shangri-la, Shangri-la la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la Put on your slippers and sit by the fire You've reached your top and you just can't get any higher You're in your place and you know where you are In your Shangri-la Sit back in your old rocking chair You need not worry, you need not care You can't go anywhere Shangri-la, Shangri-la, Shangri-la, Shangri-la, Shangri-la, Shangri-la OKLAHOMA USA All life we work but work is bore, If life's for livin' what's livin' for, She lives in a house that's near decay, Built for the industrial revolution, But in her dreams she is far away, In Oklahoma U.S.A. With Shirley Jones and Gordon McRea, As she buys her paper at the corner shop, She's walkin' on the surrey with the fringe on top, Cos in her dreams she is far away, In Oklahoma U.S.A., She walks to work but she's still in a daze, She's Rita Hayworth or Doris Day, And Errol Flynn's gonna take her away, To Oklahoma U.S.A., All life we work but work is a bore, If life's for livin' then what's livin' for. SHE BOUGHT A HAT LIKE PRINCESS MARINA She's bought a hat like Princess Marina's To wear at all her social affairs She wears it when she's cleaning the windows She wears it when she's scrubbing the stairs But you will never see her at Ascot She can't afford the time or the fare But she's bought a hat like Princess Marina's So she don't care He's bought a hat like Anthony Eden's Because it makes him feel like a Lord But he can't afford a Rolls or a Bentley He has to buy a secondhand Ford He tries to feed his wife and his family And buy them clothes and shoes they can wear But he's bought a hat like Anthony Eden's So he don t care Buddy can you spare me a dime My wife is getting hungry And the kids are crying This poverty is hurting my pride Buddy can you spare me, buddy can you spare me a dime She's bought a hat like Princess Marina's And her neighbors think it suits her a treat But she hasn't any food in the larder Nor has anybody else in the street But to look at her you'd think she was wealthy 'Cos she smiles just like a real millionaire 'Cos she's bought a hat like Princess Marina's So she don't care, she don't care, she don't care, she don't care SUNNY AFTERNOON The tax man's taken all my dough, And left me in my stately home, Lazing on a sunny afternoon. And I can't sail my yacht, He's taken everything I've got, All I've got's this sunny afternoon. Save me, save me, save me from this squeeze. I got a big fat mama trying to break me. And I love to live so pleasantly, Live this life of luxury, Lazing on a sunny afternoon. In the summertime In the summertime In the summertime My girlfriend's run off with my car, And gone back to her ma and pa, Telling tales of drunkenness and cruelty. Now I'm sitting here, Sipping at my ice cold beer, Lazing on a sunny afternoon. Help me, help me, help me sail away, Well give me two good reasons why I oughta stay. 'Cause I love to live so pleasantly, Live this life of luxury, Lazing on a sunny afternoon. In the summertime In the summertime In the summertime Ah, save me, save me, save me from this squeeze. I got a big fat mama trying to break me. And I love to live so pleasantly, Live this life of luxury, Lazing on a sunny afternoon. In the summertime In the summertime In the summertime ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:32:45 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: suburbs/davies lyrics -- NJC And here's one from the Moody Blues that always seemed as if it had been written by Ray: LAZY DAY Lazy day, Sunday afternoon, Like to get your feet up, watch T.V. Sunday roast is something good to eat, Must be lamb today 'cause beef was last week. So full up, bursting at the seams, Soon you'll start to nod off, happy dreams. Wake up, for tea and buttered scones Such a lot of work for you Sunday moms. It's such a crying shame Week after week the same. Today's heaven-sent and you're feeling content, You worked all week long. Still, it's quite sad tomorrow's so bad And I don't feel so strong. Lazy day, Sunday afternoon, Like to get your feet up, watch T.V. Sunday roast is something good to eat, Now it's almost over till week. That's how your life goes by Until the day you die. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 17:45:13 +0100 From: "Chris Marshall" Subject: Meaningless s3x (Was RE: i as a boy) NJC Lucy wrote:- > Lets face it, sex is a great thing to share with someone whom > you really like. But let it be a kind and happy thing, not > some debased and debauched act for the sexual gratifiaction > of others. > > Mutuality, respect and a duty of care from one to the other > should be the minimum benchmark, and no bounds gone beyond > without those three things in place... I'm dragging this slightly off-topic now, but what you've just written resonates very strongly with me. I've only recently discovered how good it can be with those three things in place, my past being a somewhat threadbare affair consisting of a few random meaningless flings and a touch of being taken advantage of while in a very drunken and fairly-newly-come-out-state. I've always thought that the serial-meaningless-encounter brigade on the gay scene were a bit sad, but I only now have the right perspective on that. They're really missing a trick, and it's a shame as well as scary that some of these people I see (and know) don't seem to realise this. I'm not making this up: I've seen and met people who are always on the prowl for the next conquest - and I plain don't understand how it can be anything but empty, ultimately. Are they too scared to *feel*? Too scared that by getting involved that they might end up hurt? Plumping for the next best thing in the form of a shag wihout all the good stuff that's supposed to go with it? Ultimately I've come to the conclusion that I'd rather not be in bed with someone at all, if all it's about is an orgasm. Even several orgasms! Or perhaps I'm thinking too hard about this? Rgds, - --Chris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 10:50:28 -0600 From: twoshoes@sasktel.net Subject: sorrow and affectation > From: colin > Today we went up north to collect a bitch for Harvey to shag, Lovely, Austin. > From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" > Subject: weird joni pronunciation. > I think these are artful affectations. Exactly what I think when I watch her perform. Only Canadians (half-joking here) can't STAND affectations, so when I watch Joni sing it almost irritates me / though I'm not so sure her way of twisting a word at the end of a line is really an affectation, for her; it just looks like one. > s-oh-rr-oh. Now THAT'S sad. It IS sad. When she sings this word at the end of Little Green (on Blue), it breaks my heart for her. I know she is talking about herself and her own loss, and it's exactly because she sings it the way she does that I am sure of this. Talk about heartfelt. This is no affectation on Joni's part. SORE-OH is how we pronounce it in Sask. And that's how it sounds to me when she sings it, though she draws it out. > From: "Kate Bennett" > to alleviate any misunderstandings, i just thought i'd point out to any > newcomers that colin raises dogs... Ah!! That's better. Kate - -- http://xoetc.antville.org Who does she think she is, Anaos Nin? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 12:50:12 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Meaningless s3x (Was RE: i as a boy) NJC Chris Marshall wrote: >I'm dragging this slightly off topic now, but what you've >just written resonates very strongly with me. > >I've only recently discovered how good it can be with those >three things in place, my past being a somewhat threadbare >affair consisting of a few random meaningless flings and >a touch of being taken advantage of while in a very drunken >and fairly-newly-come-out-state. > >I've always thought that the serial-meaningless-encounter >brigade on the gay scene were a bit sad, but I only now >have the right perspective on that. They're really missing >a trick, and it's a shame as well as scary that some of these >people I see (and know) don't seem to realise this. I'm not >making this up: I've seen and met people who are always on >the prowl for the next conquest - and I plain don't understand >how it can be anything but empty, ultimately. Are they too >scared to *feel*? Too scared that by getting involved that >they might end up hurt? Plumping for the next best thing in >the form of a shag wihout all the good stuff that's supposed >to go with it? > >Ultimately I've come to the conclusion that I'd rather not >be in bed with someone at all, if all it's about is an >orgasm. Even several orgasms! > >Or perhaps I'm thinking too hard about this? > No. I have come to the same conclusion. Luckily, though, not until I was 50. Jerry :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 12:02:44 -0500 From: "Cynthia Vickery" Subject: Re: Meaningless s3x (Was RE: i as a boy) NJC those of you who know me well are laughing, because *of course* i'd delurk long enough to talk about sex, BUT - chris wrote: <> and i respond: no no no, chris, i think you've absolutely got it. i've long thought that sex with someone that i don't care for a *great deal* (though who's to say what constitutes *enough*, right?) is just excrutiatingly complicated masturbation. seems to me that meaningless sex (the highly touted "zipless fuck") is just another symptom of our short attention spans and of our great greed as human animals to consume. more, just because there's more of it, isn't always better. the best sex isn't even half about genitals, anyhow, now is it? cindy (but - just for the record - i'm as greedy as the next fool sometimes, despite myself. dammit.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 13:32:51 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: sorrow and affectation (now NJC) Kate wrote: > This is no affectation on Joni's part. SORE-OH is how we pronounce it in > Sask. And that's how it sounds to me when she sings it, though she draws it > out. > Saturday night, I almost fainted when, in the middle of singing a song in performance, (in the band I am in) I sang SORE-OH. I've been hanging around Canada so much, I have the DAMN ACCENT!!! ACK!!! Please someone kick me when I start saying "ay" at the end of my sentences. Hugs, Ashara {sah-roh, sah-roh, sah-roh, sah-roh, sah-roh, sah-roh} ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 10:48:50 -0700 From: "theodore" Subject: FW: Gertrude Stein of music - NJC My favorite Gertrude Stein quote: "there is no repetition, only insistence." I read this sometime in High School and it really changed my thinking. I love being one of the girls! What the hell would you want to hang out with a bunch of guys for? I never do the guy thing unless I get stuck having to. I don't think girl is the insult of the day anymore. Yeah, you might throw like a girl, but, most kids call each other gay. That's gay. You're gay. Being called a pussy is more common than being called a "girl." This is just my take on it, but, American guys are very afraid of being called gay because so much of what American manhood boyhood consists of is thinly veiled homo erotic activity and spectacle. Look at wrestling, football, the military, I always thought our gym coaches were sadistic fags, they wanted to look to see if you were wearing your jock strap, freaks. The worst is when guys want you to go to a strip club with all guys. No thanks. Or they put on a porno movie and go "dude check this out." Even worse when they insist on giving you blow by blow descriptions of their sexual conquests. What would make you think I want to hear that? What are you seeking from me, by sharing this? All this macho shit isn't for the girls, it's to take back to the boy's and brag about. The women are presented a different set of behavior and language. It's an act. The whole point of wanting to score is to score with the guys. One reason is because these relationships with the frat guys, or the football team, or the rock band, if you get in on that you get access to the girls who go to the keggers, or want to party backstage. The most common way that girls are scored in these situations is to get them as drunk as possible and by the end of the night when they are dropping like flies and can't get home by themselves, viola, score. Scenario number two, the party is at her house or someone else's, do not leave until all the females are gone and only guys remain, the guys will sit and wait for the last drunk chick to finally be scored. Scenario three, you are at a bar or a club, get the women drunk, be careful, 12 am to 2 am is your time, if you get them too drunk too early you'll get them sick and either appear to be a total asshole or be obliged to tend to some drunk , puking woman all night while she stupidly, slurs apologies for ruining your fun, so 12 - 2, the next step is to get them out of the club usually if it's a group of guys, group of girls, girls are not going to go to a club alone, if they don't' have a date they will go with a girlfriend, you have to work this friend very carefully she could be less desirable than her friend, but, at 2am she has got to be on your side. Anyway the point is if you want "score" in America, the secret is to not fight fair, and, then of course to deny everything. I have seen a lot of bar fights in my time and none have been "fair." Here is how to "win." These things always start with name calling, shoving, stare downs, as soon as this starts there will be a fight, two guys dumb enough to get to this point are too dumb to back off half way. If you want to win throw the first blow when the other isn't looking or not expecting it, keep swinging until the bouncers pull you off, you win, you kicked that guy's ass. I am a guy. I've done my time. It seemed to me, the guy reading Gertrude Stein in high school, it wasn't a great way to attract girls. The rock band thing worked better. No shortage of girls, then. And isn't it interesting that in that time the style was longer hair for guys, songwriting, poetry, more feminine things. So who didn't want to be like dear old dad? Who wanted to explore a truer aspect of power? You could read into Joni's affinity for wanting to be part of the band a number of things, they were doing the same thing she was, she felt she had something to bring to the table as a whole bunch of men started trying to express themselves and move others through the power of music and words, she wanted her shot up in front of the audience, she wanted to be in that circle of people that were doing it, and, it takes talent, and, it takes getting backstage, going to the parties, kissing asses, she wanted that because she thought she deserved it. You wonder why when they ask what she thinks of this singer or that she doesn't gush praise? Then I don't think you understand what they are asking her is "are you here kissing the same ass everyone else is?" in case you haven't noticed Rock is a guy dominated genre, there have been great women in rock but, the great number of acts are guys. It is usually not your teen age daughter that wants to be in a rock band. OK, what is a woman doing back stage at my show, where we are tuning, or bitching at each other or trying to figure out who stole our shit, and, of course trying to impress the women that somehow weaseled their way into our den. Joni had to negotiate that situation, and, not be perceived as a groupie. The first thing I'm thinking is sure you play a little guitar, what am I going to insult the girl, no I'll humor her, "I've been trying to find someone to collaborate ,blah blah ..." I'm thinking she comes over we play some get high and fuck ... so you see ... getting that kind of respect where guys in bands aren't just blowing smoke up your ass and trying to get in your pants, very crucial. Other women that were backstage, why does my girlfriend want to be backstage, at practice, etc? She misses me? I need her in case I get bored? I need her by my side at every waking moment because we are in love ... ? You do not want that groupie tag. One last reason, Joni was usually involved with one of the guys, so holding her position because she was Joni, and not so and so's old lady is something to negotiate. Read a book called "women" by Charles Bukowski, it might not be pleasant, but, Charles doesn't sugar coat the truth. Bukowski is a drunk and a bum. He starts writing poetry becomes a poet of some merit. The book chronicles the succession of women that fall in love with him even though he is a disgusting drunk, Being one of the women ain't looking like a real self esteem builder either. Ted "when god created you he came over the whole universe." Bukowski - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com] On Behalf Of twoshoes@sasktel.net Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 7:34 AM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Gertrude Stein of music from Les's interview with Joni: > But arrogance? No, I think it could be better described as confidence. Mmm hmmm. Confidence in a woman is often construed as arrogance. Confidence in a man is simply expected. There was talk of the few women in Joni's life, how she likes to be one of the boys. This could be an unconscious aligning with the sex that is seen as more powerful, more highly regarded, etc., and is quite common. Homey example: For a feminist daughter, "You are just like your dad!" is seen as a compliment, because what males have/had/are in this culture is considered worthy. "You're just like your mom" would be much less desirable. I was one of those daughters, before I realized why I was thinking that way. Who wants to be like a woman, without the power and respect men claim(ed) without question in a society like ours? For a woman to be 'one of the boys' and admired and respected by them is/was considered (especially in Joni's generation, though this wouldn't always be a conscious attitude) a step up on the rung of social position. Boys are still commonly insulted by being called a 'girl.' But it doesn't work the other way around. Exceptions abound, of course. But this is what I think every time I see Joni seeming to be proud to be 'one of the boys.' No offence fellas, but that should not be a compliment to any woman. Have you ever heard of a man who bragged about being 'one of the girls'? I haven't. Kate - -- http://xoetc.antville.org Who does she think she is, Anaos Nin? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 14:59:20 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: sexual awareness NJC maybe it's a cultural thing. we were very open about sex at home, despite our RC background. my family is italian-lebanese. maybe people from those places are more precocious or become aware of their sexuality earlier in life. i know people that became aware of their sexual needs much later in life. w - -----Mensaje original----- De: colin [mailto:colin@tantra-apso.com] Enviado el: Lunes, 14 de Abril de 2003 04:46 a.m. Para: Wally Kairuz CC: joni@smoe.org Asunto: Re: i as a boy NJC Wally Kairuz wrote: > me a reputation as a >disturbed person or a degenerate. > I didn't read antyhing here that would elad me to that conclusion, Wally. Having read it, I can see your feelings clearly. I am still glad this man was responsible and didn't abuse you. I do wonder how you knew about the sex stuff at this age. love colin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:02:22 -0700 (PDT) From: magsnbrei Subject: Re: sorrow and affectation This is no affectation on Joni's part. SORE-OH is how we pronounce it in Sask. And that's how it sounds to me when she sings it, though she draws it out. It's how I say sore-oh too. (born and raised in southern ontario and have lived east and west and do take note of the different Canadian accents..) I never noticed this is how I pronounce it until Ashara told me yesterday that she pronounces it sahroh. sahrry ... And for the record..when Joni sings that drawn out sorrow in Little Green, it breaks my heart too, every time. Mags, np: Deb Talan A Good Days Work. from Something Burning. You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:28:52 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: kittys njc hi >>>>janet wrote >>>>Deanna Ivy the Wonderkitty, who is somewhat more likely to respond to a cry of "fishies!" than to a bang... i think im in trouble...... i have a little cat that moved in with me my cat was a stray, and has apparently developed a taste for birds to judge by the regular piles of feathers i find around my downstairs neighbours have (had???) an african grey parrot yesterday there was a pile of grey feathers outside my door & all over my verandah today theres a note at the entrance to the complex where i stay offering a large reward for the return of one missing african gray parrot........... so my question to the list is do i come clean & tell my neighbour remove the feathers and say nothing return the feathers and claim the reward .... ron ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 15:38:08 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: kittys njc ron! what a dilemma! i'll use it as an essay topic with my harvard MBA candidates. wally - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de ron Enviado el: Lunes, 14 de Abril de 2003 03:29 p.m. Para: joni@smoe.org Asunto: kittys njc hi >>>>janet wrote >>>>Deanna Ivy the Wonderkitty, who is somewhat more likely to respond to a cry of "fishies!" than to a bang... i think im in trouble...... i have a little cat that moved in with me my cat was a stray, and has apparently developed a taste for birds to judge by the regular piles of feathers i find around my downstairs neighbours have (had???) an african grey parrot yesterday there was a pile of grey feathers outside my door & all over my verandah today theres a note at the entrance to the complex where i stay offering a large reward for the return of one missing african gray parrot........... so my question to the list is do i come clean & tell my neighbour remove the feathers and say nothing return the feathers and claim the reward .... ron ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:45:21 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: sexual awareness NJC > maybe it's a cultural thing. we were very open about sex at home, > despite our RC background. my family is italian-lebanese. maybe > people from those places are more precocious or become aware of their > sexuality earlier in life. i know people that became aware of their > sexual needs much later in life. Interesting, Wally. What you've written validates a certain stereotype that "Latin" people are more sexual, more horny. What is the attitude in Argentina about adults and children having sex? Curious, Lori ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 12:38:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: sorrow and affectation Doesn't everyone pronounce "Sorrow" as "sore-oh?" I can't think of any other pronunciation of that particular word. It's not Canadian, it's just plain english.... right? - -AN-DROO Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 15:41:23 -0400 From: "Blair Fraipont" Subject: Re: i as a boy NJC I must say, what a fucking brave post. I can imagine how hard that must have been. To have that yearning so young in life and to have a clear idea of what and who you wanted is astounding and not degenerative. I myself at that age was completely naieve to the idea of love or companionship and didn't start blooming until age 16. Some kids mature early and I think alot of parents/people can't accept that. Some kids are ready for more challenges at an earlier age, others like myself were lost in bliss/confusion/ignorance/prolonged childhood. Thank you for that post. Blair _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 15:57:59 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: sorrow and affectation In a message dated 4/14/2003 3:39:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, littlebird3333@yahoo.com writes: > Doesn't everyone pronounce "Sorrow" as "sore-oh?" I > can't think of any other pronunciation of that > particular word. It's not Canadian, it's just plain > english.... right? > I think it's just an accent thing Andrew. Down in the south, we pronounce it 'sar oh. Of course some of us crackers could stretch it into 3 or 4 syllabels :~) Jimmy ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #240 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)