From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #237 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, April 13 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 237 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Response to Colin re: chldhood sexuality NJC [colin ] Re: NRH... what's exxon blue? [=?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Zubairi?= ] Re: rosanne cash njc [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Suburbia ["Blair Fraipont" ] RE: Suburbia ["theodore" ] Re: NRH... what's exxon blue? ["kerry" ] RE: snow and other smells..now with Joni content/question [Deb Messling <] Re: hissing of the summer lawns (Mondegreened) (NJC) [Catherine McKay ] Re: My last word on this topic NJC ["PAUL PETERSON" ] Re: men and boys... NJC [colin ] joni connections [colin ] Re: Suburbia now njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: hissing of the summer lawns (Mondegreened) (NJC) [AsharaJM@aol.com] Re: men and boys... NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: hissing of the summer lawns (Mondegreened) (NJC) [Catherine McKay ] Joni Smells [KJHSF@aol.com] re exxon blue [cul heath ] Re: Suburbia [KJHSF@aol.com] Re: re exxon blue [Catherine McKay ] RE: re exxon blue ["theodore" ] RE: hissing of the summer lawns (Mondegreened) (NJC) ["Maggie McNally" ] Re: NRH... what's exxon blue? [=?iso-8859-1?Q?Emiliano_Pati=F1o?= ] Joni on American Masters ... ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: re exxon blue ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Rickie Lee Jones ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: re exxon blue [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] weird joni pronunciation. ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: snow and other smells..now with Joni content/question ["Mark or Travi] Re: hissing of the summer lawns ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: hissing of the summer lawns (Mondegreened) (NJC) [AsharaJM@aol.com] Fwd: Rickie Lee Jones [KJHSF@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 08:55:17 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Response to Colin re: chldhood sexuality NJC PAUL PETERSON wrote: >> >> > >You see, you are making my point. How can you deny the sexual pleasure that >a five year old experiences? It's been a clinical fact for a hundred years >now. And yet it is precisely this denial that is at the root of most of the >sexual dysfunction in our culture. > So you really think that a 5 year old feels pleasure when it is molested/raped? You seriously think it is our denial of children feeling pleasure that is at the root of child abuse? No it is your attitude and ignorance on the is subjct that is one of the reasons child abuse is still so common. You are right-it is not more prevalent now thatn before-it is just less denied. if you had one little, tuiny, undertsanding of what abuse does to a child, you would not think what you wrote above and when you do decide to treally learn about the subject, you will be horrified that you could have thought what you now think. You are confusing people's embarassment/shame and denial over children's sexuality with the crime of sexually abusing. you seem to be implying that a child is onyl affected by an adult molesting/raping them because of people's denial of sexual feeling in children. this does not make sense. Althouhg it is an argument put foreward by those who wish to have sex with children.(not suggesting that is your motive here). MOST children who are abused sexually are raped/molested by their immediate family, father or mother, or another family member. The danger of strangers is not so great and is only so publicisied becausepeople wwish to deny the role of families in abuse. I too keep away from children for the every reasons you state. Society is full of ignorant people. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 10:33:48 +0100 From: "Lucy Hone" Subject: men and boys... NJC Dear Wally and Colin and JMDL-ers It is always difficult to post responses to mails that include other references to other posts so please excuse me if I misquote either of you.... My stance is always one of absolute concern for the child.. working for a charity that deals extensively with the after affects of abuse, and works hard at trying to prevent it from happening, there can be no excuse for any adult (male of female) to engage in sexual activity with underage children. Wally you have pointed out very very honestly on the list that you would have willingly had sex at 11 with an older man... What I would ask you to conisder is how that situation came to be... were you groomed, were you shown affection by this man, did he make you love him? Who initiated that sort of intimacy? or put you in the position where you, an 11 year old, would consider having sex... Please understand that there is absolutely no condemnation of you in these questions but real concern that you felt willing to allow something that could so physically damage you (if you meant full sex) at such a young age. Our work with abused boys (and girls) encompasses the recovery from anal and vaginal penetration. The physical damage can be extensive and, in some cases, irreversible. The young body is not capable to receive, without pain and real discomfort and risk, the attentions of older determined males or females. Females use all sorts of things to penetrate in case you are wondering... Children do go through the years of probably 9 to 14 with growing awareness of sexual feelings, I can remember my own pre pubescent crushes and feelings of nascent wonder at what my body felt at that time. However the idea of SEX was something nebulous and unformed. No real concept at all of what that would physically involve and this is the crux of the matter. Children can think they know and can be groomed to a point where their curiosity overflows their own boundaries and the opportunist adult takes advantage of that knowing full well what they are doing. The child thinks they know but actually don't. It is abuse, of trust, of their bodies and their future choices. I do not know a lot about NAMBLA but it seems to me that they are seeking to override the childs right to childhood by gaining tacit permission for sexual acts in order to validate their own interests. Ages of consent are put in place to protect children for a very good reason. Why these people need to glean their sexual pleasure from a younger age group is something to think about... Are the movers and shakers in this group also adults who were themselves introduced to adult child sex at an early age?. Colin makes the very valid point that it is difficult for gay men to avoid the tag of paedophile and here is a group who by their name alone recognise the MAN BOY difference, and would seemingly wish to have that taboo lifted... what happens when the boys are no longer boys? are they scrapped? From our work with boys who are on the rent scene that seems to be the case..girls too find it harder to work when they older... and lets not forget the risk of disease, mental and physical illness, drug and alcohol abuse and the social ramifications for these "once upon a time" children. As to sexual acts between children our work encompasses that too. Children who sexually abuse others is a hidden problem and is oftem a symptom of greater abuse further up the family tree. Not all children who abuse go on to become abusers in adult life but whilst they are being abused they often seek to perpertrate what is happening to them on younger children as it gives them a sense of control over what is happening to them. When this behaviour comes to light it is possible to deal with it and put the child back onto a course that is appropriate and help them to come to some point at which they can continue with a life that is devoid of abuse. Stopping abuse early is important and we work hard to allow children to have a future as unaffected by an abusive childhood as it is possible to be. You cannot remove what has happened, stopping it is only the first step, dealing with the after effects and helping the child to move on and leave the past behind is something we strive to do and our work is successful. The unique worth of every child must be recognised, their potential encouraged, their asiprations helped and their futures guided so that when they arrive at adulthood they can make all the choices they want to. Let them have whatever sexuality they want when they are old enough to make that choice, and make it freely. All adults have the right to love whom they choose to. I have quite a few gay and lesbian friends and I value them for the people they are; their sexual orientation is neither here nor there for me, they are great people. But they are adults who love other "over the age of consent" adults and do not seek to recruit from the nursery. It is good that in this world (for the main part) gay and lesbian people are much freer to love openly without the extreme sanction of previous decades. Adult child sex has always been forbidden (in our modern society) and should remain strictly an act that attracts legal sanction. Long may it be so. Colin's response to Wally is added below. Lucy Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 09:29:10 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: nambla njc Wally Kairuz wrote: >i really don't know how to compose this post without getting into trouble >with a lot of list members but i'll try. > >i have always been very interested in nambla. i am not familiar with it or >its guiding principles. i know that the ilga didn't accept nambla as a >member organization for a long time (i don't know whether this situation has >changed) and that its existence has caused a lot of controversy in the gay >political arena. > lets hope the situationhas not changed. There are enough people who think gay men want sex with boys without giving them ammunition. > >my main question is whether it is possible that kids of say 12 or 13 could >be ready and willing to have sex with older men and that in these situations >intimacy may not constitute sexual abuse or child molesting. > no. not just in my opinion but also inthe opion of the experts in achild abuse and chldren. > in my >experience, i was very much in love with an older man and ready for intimacy >when i was 11. if i had had sex with him, would that invariably have hurt my >psyche or development? > yes but because oyu didn't, how would you know for sure? Apart form that, there would be something seriously wrong with the psyche of the man who would wnat to have had sex with you at 11. 11 year olds are CHIDLREN and regardless of your desires, no ADULT should be having any sort of sexual relationship with you. Quite simply no matter how provocative or enticing or flirtatious a child is, it is the adults responsability to say NO. Also it would suggest a serious lack of love and support on the life of the 11 year old who would want this. Sexual beahviour bewteen children is a different matter,is common, and is not abuse because ofthe ages involved. However, if the sexual behaviour wasbetween say an 11 year old and a 7 year old,then that would be an abusive situation. there is plenty of exceelnt information available on this subject and it is easy to educate oneself about this subject, and to get a good understanding of the rpoblems in herent in adult/child sexual abuse. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 11:01:13 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Zubairi?= Subject: Re: NRH... what's exxon blue? Hi Emiliano I always thought that she was referring not only to the colour of the sign but also the colour the sea turned when the Exxon Valdez ran aground and spilled all it's oil out into the coast around Alaska, which happened in 1989. I'm not sure when she actually wrote the words to Passion Play but I think thy coincide. I think it it follows that she would refer to 'radiation rose' in the same way, the colour referring to the effect something has. I'm not explaining it properly but I hope you get what I mean. See:http://response.restoration.noaa.gov/spotlight/spotlight.html Much Joni Jamie Zoob Emilliano wrote: I'm living the cheerfully hipnotic "Passion Play (When All The Slaves Are Free) and wondering: what means "Exxon blue"? - --------------------------------- Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 05:22:52 -0700 (PDT) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: RE: snow and other smells..now with Joni content/question Not only can I smell the difference in the air when snow is on the way, I actually use the sense of smell when sailing. There's a subtle sweetness to a southwest breeze here in the Northeast U.S. An easterly smells salty. A northeasterly has a cold smell like a refrigerator, even on a warm day. On more than one occasion, I've used the sense of smell to determine if a shift in the breeze was constant or not. And, I can't think of any offhand, but how about smells Joni identifies in her songs? In fact, does she use the sense of smell at all? (all I can come up with are visual images, and some auditory ones.) lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 08:27:45 -0400 From: "Blair Fraipont" Subject: Re: The Real "jacko" NJC This made me think of the Lisa Marie Presley interview in Rolling Stone. About Michael Jackson she said that what initially attracted him to her was that he was a funny guy, who cursed and told dirty jokes and actually had a deeper voice than what we see in performance or in interview.. and that he had a whole different persona on stage. Now, this is a bit different from not seeing a performer for who they are completely. The way Lisa M. Presley described it, was that Michael Jackson almost created this "alter-ego" to obfuscate or to create some imaginary spectacle. Usually, in the past, I would have not bought this, but for some reason, it makes a whole lotta sense to me now. Blair NP: Satellite-John Coltrane > >But at the dinner table they may tell dirty jokes, or >may tuck their kids in at night. They may wash their >own cars and be the most approachable human being you >could ever hope to meet. Put them in an interview >situation or on a stage where they don't feel >comfortable and you get a different side. > >Famous people don't owe us anything just like we don't >owe it to them to be forever loyal. And assuming we >could ever know the "real" Joni is a bit far fetched. > >-Andrew _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 08:35:19 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: rosanne cash njc Evian from Prince Albert, SK asks: > If anyone comes across a > used "Interiors", let me know - I'll buy it from you. I have a used Interior "Designer", but he's not for sale :~) AND You let my secret out about Rosanne Barr!!!! Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 08:39:46 -0400 From: "Blair Fraipont" Subject: Re: Suburbia Hey, Well, I lived in Suburbia from birth to age 9 so what I recall really isn't that fuzzy. I suppose what I meant by my statement was not based on real life experiece, but this sort of cinematic-Edward-Scissor-Hands-esque-type of neighborhood.. I am sure there are very gossipy neighborhoods in the suburbs. The one I lived in wasnt that way, from how my mother describes it, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I suppose since the album is sort of cinematic, that is how I thought of hissing. But, I also thought of snakes, sprinkers, steam rising from concrete.. basically what everyone else has been saying, but to a lesser developed degree. Also, I agree in that I am sure Joni wasn't thinking about hissing women and men, but isnt it great how so many things can be brought up eventhough they weren't in the artist's original intentions. Blair NP: SUperwoman (where were you when I needed you)- Stevie Wonder > >Blair surmised: > > > > It could be the snide hissing of gossipy men and women living in the > > suburbs.... The way people talk about each other in such controlled >living > > spaces is usually not without a touch of cruelty.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I am somewhat experienced about living in the suburbs, having done so for >50 >of my 54 years. That has not been a particularly distinctive experience for >me. I can relate to Joni's "no color, no contrast" analogy, and to other >images and metaphors for such hissing, but I do not think that one is what >Joni was aiming at. Also there is a tendency to not even really know one's >neighbors in the burbs (perhaps from lack of contact). I am not sure what >is >so controlled about the living spaces in the suburbs, either. > >Has this been your experience, living in the suburbs ? > >Bobsart _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 06:47:50 -0700 From: "theodore" Subject: RE: Suburbia Ok I'm getting a little miffed about people bagging on the burbs. I'm from garage land. I've lived in the city, I've lived in a trailer, I lived in my friend's closet ... whatever, where the hell do you people live that is so cutting edge cool? Where people are so much more genuine. Where materialism is spurned, for the time tested traditions and simple pleasures we philistines here in the hissing abyss of petty jealousy and home improvement have all but laid to rest with our insatiable desire for bigger cheaper retail outlets. A soccer mom's Shangri-La of strip malls, weight loss centers, mini-vans and menstrual tension. Oops sorry be right back I got to go spy on the neighbors, if I can only catch him on video putting his recyclables in our recycle bin ... - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com] On Behalf Of Blair Fraipont Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2003 5:40 AM To: Bobsart48@aol.com; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Suburbia Hey, Well, I lived in Suburbia from birth to age 9 so what I recall really isn't that fuzzy. I suppose what I meant by my statement was not based on real life experiece, but this sort of cinematic-Edward-Scissor-Hands-esque-type of neighborhood.. I am sure there are very gossipy neighborhoods in the suburbs. The one I lived in wasnt that way, from how my mother describes it, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I suppose since the album is sort of cinematic, that is how I thought of hissing. But, I also thought of snakes, sprinkers, steam rising from concrete.. basically what everyone else has been saying, but to a lesser developed degree. Also, I agree in that I am sure Joni wasn't thinking about hissing women and men, but isnt it great how so many things can be brought up eventhough they weren't in the artist's original intentions. Blair NP: SUperwoman (where were you when I needed you)- Stevie Wonder > >Blair surmised: > > > > It could be the snide hissing of gossipy men and women living in the > > suburbs.... The way people talk about each other in such controlled >living > > spaces is usually not without a touch of cruelty.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I am somewhat experienced about living in the suburbs, having done so for >50 >of my 54 years. That has not been a particularly distinctive experience for >me. I can relate to Joni's "no color, no contrast" analogy, and to other >images and metaphors for such hissing, but I do not think that one is what >Joni was aiming at. Also there is a tendency to not even really know one's >neighbors in the burbs (perhaps from lack of contact). I am not sure what >is >so controlled about the living spaces in the suburbs, either. > >Has this been your experience, living in the suburbs ? > >Bobsart _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 08:54:19 -0500 From: "kerry" Subject: Re: NRH... what's exxon blue? > In a message dated 4/12/2003 8:34:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > emilianopd@mundo-r.com writes: > > > Is there some blue sign asociated with that oil company? > > Yes, the Exxon sign is red, white and blue. It's not really a unique or weird > shade, so I've never known why Joni describes it as Exxon Blue. > > I like your thought about the blue flame, it corresponds to radiation rose, I > think. > > Bob She says, "enter the multitudes," so I've always thought of it as a "multitude" of people in blue Exxon uniforms? Kerry NP - Sunday morning peace and quiet ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 10:04:26 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: RE: snow and other smells..now with Joni content/question How about this description of a ladies' room? Liquid soap and grass and jungle gardenia crash on Pine Sol and beer At 05:22 AM 4/13/2003 -0700, you wrote: >And, I can't think of any offhand, but how about smells >Joni identifies in her songs? In fact, does she use the >sense of smell at all? (all I can come up with are >visual images, and some auditory ones.) - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 10:09:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: hissing of the summer lawns (Mondegreened) (NJC) --- AsharaJM@aol.com wrote: > > Heard: "One that makes it easy" > Actual: "Wonder makes it easy" > From: The Hissing of Summer Lawns > > Heard: "With a joyfullness" > Actual: "With a joyful mask" > From: The Hissing of Summer Lawns You mean to say it's not "joyfullness"? I always thought that whole line was "One love makes it easy with her joyfullness." Never mind that that doesn't make a lot of sense - it sounds kind of nice, doesn't it? And never mind that the lyrics are always included with a Joni-album. Sometimes you hear what you want to hear and disregard the rest. (wrong lyricist, but who cares.) ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 10:30:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Suburbia now njc --- Blair Fraipont wrote: I am sure there are very gossipy > neighborhoods in the > suburbs. The one I lived in wasnt that way, from how > my mother describes it, > but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Gossip is there if you want it to be, no matter what neighbourhood you live in. Maybe in the suburbs back then, when most mothers stayed at home all day, it was a way of relieving some of the boredom - never mind that gossip itself is pretty boring IMO. Your mother probably just had enough sense to stay out of it. I've lived in the neighbourhood I'm in for almost five years now and have to admit, I hardly even know most of my neighbours and I'm not going to go out of my way to become best friends with them either. Not that I have anything against them - it's just that between work and everything else, you never even see them. Some of the people who live in this neighbourhood are older retired people who take off for Florida in the fall and only come back in the spring - we Canadians call them snowbirds. So half the time, some of the houses around here are deserted. I think Robert Frost was right when he said that a good fence makes good neighbours (although I guess he spelled it without the u.) ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 11:06:58 -0400 From: "PAUL PETERSON" Subject: Re: My last word on this topic NJC Thanks for acknowledging that you agree with at least some of what I wrote. I think you misunderstand my point which addressed the prevention of abuse, something we both can agree is a goal to be pursued. I do believe that a truly sex positive upbringing of children would empower them to resist, or at least inform on, adult abusers. And it would result in fewer children growing up to be abusers themselves. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 11:14:21 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Suburbia now njc In a message dated 4/13/2003 10:31:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, anima_rising@yahoo.ca writes: > Some of the people who live in this neighbourhood are > older retired people who take off for Florida in the > fall and only come back in the spring Catherine, we probably know the same people!!! My neighborhood is 20% Canadian during the winter. They're all starting to go back north now. Do you want me to tell them to bring you something? How bout an acronym or two? I know how much you love them :~) Jimmy in the burbs, and loving my new puppy (Jesse) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 17:16:01 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: My last word on this topic NJC I think I did misunderstand what you were saying. I don't disagrew with anything you are saying here. If children were taught more about sex and BOUDARIES, it would be more difficult to keep sexual abuseof chidlren secret. however, as most of it happens within the family, this education of children would not on it's own make a lot of difference. wghen it is a parent who abuses(as it is mostly),the secret is very much ahrder to tell. bw colin PAUL PETERSON wrote: >Thanks for acknowledging that you agree with at least some of what I wrote. I >think you misunderstand my point which addressed the prevention of abuse, >something we both can agree is a goal to be pursued. I do believe that a >truly sex positive upbringing of children would empower them to resist, or at >least inform on, adult abusers. And it would result in fewer children growing >up to be abusers themselves. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 17:16:53 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: men and boys... NJC Thank youlucy-I was hoping you would chime in on this. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 17:19:29 +0100 From: colin Subject: joni connections I ahev a habit of reading car numberplates as shorthand. Some are quite amusing. Today we went up north to collect a bitch for Harvey to shag, and on the return trip, the car in front had KFE in it's number plate which made me think of Gergia O' Keefe(is that her?) and then Joni. The next car had the silver letters TI on it's body work. That Joni gets her nose into everything. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 12:21:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Suburbia now njc --- FMYFL@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/13/2003 10:31:38 AM Eastern > Standard Time, > anima_rising@yahoo.ca writes: > > > Some of the people who live in this neighbourhood > are > > older retired people who take off for Florida in > the > > fall and only come back in the spring > > Catherine, we probably know the same people!!! My > neighborhood is 20% > Canadian during the winter. They're all starting to > go back north now. Do > you want me to tell them to bring you something? > How bout an acronym or two? > I know how much you love them :~) > > Jimmy in the burbs, and loving my new puppy (Jesse) > Just tell them to stop whining about their health coverage. These people can afford to have two homes and they want to have all the advantages of living in both countries, while being loyal to neither. I should be so lucky! New puppy? Awwwwww. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 12:33:14 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: hissing of the summer lawns (Mondegreened) (NJC) Catherine wrote: > And never mind that the lyrics are always included > with a Joni-album. Yeah, but I think you have actually *read* them to make it worthwhile. ;-) Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 12:39:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: men and boys... NJC --- Lucy Hone wrote: > Children do go through the years of probably 9 to 14 > with growing awareness > of sexual feelings, I can remember my own pre > pubescent crushes and feelings > of nascent wonder at what my body felt at that time. > However the idea of SEX > was something nebulous and unformed. No real concept > at all of what that > would physically involve and this is the crux of the > matter. Lucy, that was an excellent post (as always) - the whole thing. I remember well having "crushes" on adults, both male and female, at around this age. Was it sexuality? Not exactly, it wasn't well-formed. Maybe more like pre-sexuality and/or hero worship. I didn't particularly understand it and I found it kind of confusing and disturbing, and I thought I was the only weirdo in the world who felt this way. Of course, I wouldn't speak to my parents about these things. My Dad would probably have lectured me about self-control and not getting too "intimate" (what the hell did he he mean by THAT?); my Mum would have told me to pray or something, which was her answer to most of life's problems - and boy, was she relieved when she found out they were teaching us sex-ed in school, because she just didn't feel up to it herself. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 12:40:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: hissing of the summer lawns (Mondegreened) (NJC) --- AsharaJM@aol.com wrote: > Catherine wrote: > > > And never mind that the lyrics are always included > > with a Joni-album. > > Yeah, but I think you have actually *read* them to > make it worthwhile. ;-) > Yeah but, the thing is, I DID read them, but I still heard what I wanted to hear; and then again, there's that thing about the eyesight... ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 09:40:16 -0700 From: cul heath Subject: Re: "NJC" yes, I have been reminded by several good folk about that faux pas of late...thanx for the reminder cul Bobsart48@aol.com wrote: Without regard to the merits of your post, just a reminder about the etiquette of posting NJC in the subject line when it is really for all intents and purposes NJC. Thanks, Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 12:42:53 EDT From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Joni Smells In a message dated 4/13/2003 8:23:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, anne@sandstrom.com writes: > but how about smells > Joni identifies in her songs? "He picks up my scent on his fingers while he's watching the waitress's legs." Ken ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 09:46:51 -0700 From: cul heath Subject: re exxon blue In a message dated 4/12/2003 8:34:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, emilianopd@mundo-r.com writes: >> Is there some blue sign asociated with that oil company? Yes, the Exxon sign is red, white and blue. It's not really a unique or weird shade, so I've never known why Joni describes it as Exxon Blue. I like your thought about the blue flame, it corresponds to radiation rose, I think. Bob I always took exxon blue to mean "blue chip" hence the "corporate idea" cul ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 12:51:57 EDT From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Re: Suburbia Blair wrote: > Also, I agree in that I > am > sure Joni wasn't thinking about hissing women and men, I don't think this was her intention either. But she definitely carries the perception in this instance: "People like to talk, tongues are wagging over fences, wagging over phones." Ken ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 12:56:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: re exxon blue emilianopd@mundo-r.com asked: > Is there some blue sign asociated with that oil > company? One of the multitudes of Bobs replied: > Yes, the Exxon sign is red, white and blue. It's not > really a unique or > weird > shade, so I've never known why Joni describes it as > Exxon Blue. > > I like your thought about the blue flame, it > corresponds to radiation > rose, I > think. > And then --- cul heath wrote: > > I always took exxon blue to mean "blue chip" hence > the "corporate idea" This thread has come up a number of times over the years. There are many interesting theories about "Exxon Blue" and "Radiation Rose", one of which got into religious/bible territory that goes way over my head, but which was presented pretty convincingly, at least for this pea-brain. It would be there in the archives somewhere, but do you think I'm going to look? Hell, no! I'm way too lazy. But it's there somewhere. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 10:12:37 -0700 From: "theodore" Subject: RE: re exxon blue I wonder if she was thinking of the refinery in Downey. I could be wrong but I think it is Exxon, and, if I remember right it has big scary blue flame gas fire deal that gives the fair city of Downey a kind of post apocalyptic charm. Worth the 20 minute drive from Hollywood to bask in the potential disaster of the thing. Ted "the traffic lights, turn blue tomorrow, and shine their emptiness down on my bed, the tiny island sags downstream, because the life that they lived is dead ..." Jimi - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com] On Behalf Of Catherine McKay Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2003 9:57 AM To: cul heath; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: re exxon blue emilianopd@mundo-r.com asked: > Is there some blue sign asociated with that oil > company? One of the multitudes of Bobs replied: > Yes, the Exxon sign is red, white and blue. It's not > really a unique or > weird > shade, so I've never known why Joni describes it as > Exxon Blue. > > I like your thought about the blue flame, it > corresponds to radiation > rose, I > think. > And then --- cul heath wrote: > > I always took exxon blue to mean "blue chip" hence > the "corporate idea" This thread has come up a number of times over the years. There are many interesting theories about "Exxon Blue" and "Radiation Rose", one of which got into religious/bible territory that goes way over my head, but which was presented pretty convincingly, at least for this pea-brain. It would be there in the archives somewhere, but do you think I'm going to look? Hell, no! I'm way too lazy. But it's there somewhere. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 13:24:05 -0400 From: "Maggie McNally" Subject: RE: hissing of the summer lawns (Mondegreened) (NJC) Ashara heard on "Hissing": Heard: "Italians are paper minded males" Actual: "Battalions of paper minded males" From: Harry's House/Centerpiece LOVE IT!!!!!!! lol!!! What region of Italy do you think Joni had in mind? Let's start a thread on THAT one! Oops, she didn't say it. My bad. ;~) Maggie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 10:41:40 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: hissing lawns that is the description of my upbringing & back then, when the album was made, i'd describe that kind of hood as upper middle class...:~} >> These neighborhoods are mostly white, all rich, yards groomed, >> everything under control. These things it shares with middle-class >> suburbia. >My point was that the world Joni was describing was upper-class, not middle. Although it's all relative.< www.katebennett.com "Lyrically, it's a work of art overall. Brilliant writing, absolutely." Indie-music.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 19:45:41 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Emiliano_Pati=F1o?= Subject: Re: NRH... what's exxon blue? Bob says: > Yes, the Exxon sign is red, white and blue. It's not really a unique or weird shade, so I've never known > why Joni describes it as Exxon Blue. hmm, red, white and blue: what do recall me these colours? Kerry says: > She says, "enter the multitudes," so I've always thought of it as a > "multitude" of people in blue Exxon uniforms? Sure! I guess there are multitudes of "blue collar" employees working on E refineries and Jamie: > I always thought that she was referring not only to the colour of the sign but also the colour the sea turned when the Exxon > Valdez ran aground and spilled all it's oil out into the coast around Alaska, which happened in 1989. I'm not sure when she > actually wrote the words to Passion Play but I think thy coincide. > See:http://response.restoration.noaa.gov/spotlight/spotlight.html Uf! The E Valdez thing is very important to all of us, being people much worried about environment preservation (I profit to say that, IMO, Bush -what do you call *it*? Dubya?- government has "covered itself with shit" refusing to suscribe the Tokio's protocol). In fact, since the previous quoted web page has been updated in July 17, 2001, does not cover the recent tragedy in our beloved coasts of Galicia, caused by the Prestige's shipwreck. We're still working hard on it. Anyway: the blue of the sea is not caused by oil: oil sheens causes the sea to look dark grey, almost black. Many thanks to all of you for your kind attention Emiliano from Galicia NP: Slouching towards Bethlehem (again and again!) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 10:50:01 -0700 (PDT) From: "Larry D." Subject: Rickie Lee Jones Emil said, "In the modern genre Ricki Lee comes about the closest to the musical and emotional excellence of Joni. What ever happened to Ricki Lee ?" I encourage emil and anyone else who wonders, to visit www.rickieleejones.com Ms. Jones is still out there making very good music. BTW, anybody remember the little rhubarb Joni and Ricki Lee had years back (in the pages of Rolling Stone, I believe) about "living the jazz life?" Larry D www.larry-d.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 13:55:29 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Joni on American Masters ... Glossary for new folks: - -- WOH&M is an acronym for the documentary usually called "Joni Mitchell: A Woman Of Heart And Mind". HOSL is an acronym for "The Hissing Of Summer Lawns". JT is James Taylor. CSN(Y) is Crosby, Stills, Nash and (sometimes) Young. PBS is the Public Broadcast System in the United States of America. - -- In the WOH&M, Don Rowe noted, >>>>>> HOSL isn't even mentioned ... then Hejira and DJRD are treated as merely a sort of dress rehearsal for Mingus. >>>>>> Fair enough, Don. But consider this: I was surprised that Susan lingered a bit on John Guerin. When we all revisited "The Hissing Of Summer Lawns", I hauled out the album. Mr. Guerin co-wrote the title track. By pausing on Mr. Guerin, Lacy *did* give us HOSL. I've never heard a thread about what Guerin brought or didn't bring to the stew. We've never discussed him like we have the CSN(Y) vowels, the JT angle as "Boston Jim", the Don Alias quote "Don & me we look up on the awning- it says "Pork Pie Hat Bar'." Is Guerin a jazzer? Back to WOH&M, I guess Lacy did skip stuff. For better year-by-year detail, see the PBS website's Timeline, created by two insiders you already 'know': Simon Montgomery & Joel Bernstein. Here's a link to that forwards you to the Timeline: http://tinyurl.com/9exm If you haven't read it yet, you should if only to see how "Dog Eat Dog" has earned a footnote. The way I connect the dots, it provided the incentive to build a certain home studio in Bel Air. (Somebody stop me. I'm writing like Kakki! Just kidding doll. You know I love you, Kakki.) All the best, Lama ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 10:58:35 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: re exxon blue > >> Is there some blue sign asociated with that oil company? > > > Yes, the Exxon sign is red, white and blue. It's not really a unique > or weird > shade, so I've never known why Joni describes it as Exxon Blue. > > I like your thought about the blue flame, it corresponds to radiation > rose, I > think. > > Bob > > > I always took exxon blue to mean "blue chip" hence the "corporate > idea" > > cul To those of you who may or may not remember my take on this, my apologies for the redundancy. I think I've posted on this one more than once. 'Passion Play' is one of my favorites. I see a couple of possibilities here. I agree that Exxon was still very much associated with the Valdez disaster at the time this song was written. So Exxon kind of equates to big industry polluting the environment which goes with radiation rose rather well. You could take this further and say that Exxon is representative of the 'oppressors' who are going to have a shortage of people 'to do the dirty work when all the slaves are free'. The name of this song suggests a stage production ie: the passion plays that are staged annually in Germany and other places. I also think that she might be referring to stage lighting here and also putting the song in a contemporary context. Stage lights are frequently blue & rose colored. By using Exxon & raditiation as descriptions of these colors, she may be alluding to the gas leaks and oil spills that she later talked about in 'Sex Kills'. Oil spills, nuclear waster, carbon monoxide belching out of automobiles - it's a bleak view of an industrialized world where the ecological health of the planet has been largely ingnored. A world lit by blue neon and that rosy radioactive glow. Pre-apocalyptic here. Definitely moving into apolcalyptic in 'Slouching Toward Bethlehem'. Mark E in Seattle Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 11:03:29 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Rickie Lee Jones > BTW, anybody remember the little rhubarb Joni and > Ricki Lee had years back (in the pages of Rolling > Stone, I believe) about "living the jazz life?" > I have to confess I never read this but I heard about it and I held a grudge against Rickie Lee for years for daring to criticize my Joni. Then summer before last I saw Rickie in concert. Since then I have eaten a considerable amount of crow and ever since then have signed all my posts to the JMDL: Mark E. in Seattle (as in Mark E's in Love....with Rickie Lee, that is) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 14:07:55 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: re exxon blue In a message dated 4/13/2003 1:59:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mark.travis@gte.net writes: > The name of this song suggests a stage production ie: the passion > plays that are staged annually in Germany and other places. And the phrase "Enter the multitudes" is definitely a stage direction...and I'd never thought of the klieg lights as being the rose & blue references, but that's a keen observation, Mark. The cool thing about "Passion Play" is that it has such attention to detail...most writers would throw out a dismissive cliche, but you know that Joni is going deeper than that so it's fun to see the intricacies of even this subtle line. Bob NP: Mingus Big Band, "Sweet Sucker Dance" Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 14:12:13 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: weird joni pronunciation. Anne said, >>There are a few words the Joni mispronounces that always annoy me...jewels/schools>> I think these are artful affectations. Tools in a singer-songwriter's toolbox include phrasing, Time, pitch, word choice, multiple meanings, and pronunciation. Joni uses all of these tools and many more. Personally, I love the fact that she says "sorrow" with that sad, prairie "oh" sound. It's so much MORE sorrowful than the way Jackson Browne says it in his equally wonderful "Fountain of Sorrow". The way he says (and the way I say it) "sorrow" almost has a long "A" at the beginning. sarrow. That's not sad. It almost rhymes with sparrow. s-oh-rr-oh. Now THAT'S sad. On top of that, the prairie pronunciation has twin 'oh' vowels. This gives the word a symmetry that the midwestern USA version lacks. Give me artful mispronunciation any day. Lama ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 11:22:29 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: snow and other smells..now with Joni content/question > Liquid soap and grass and jungle gardenia crash on Pine Sol and beer > > I love this line. What a wonderful description. The two smells don't mingle. They *crash* on one another. Brilliant! I'm drawing a blank on specific references to smells but there are so many references in Joni's lyrics that *suggest* smells to me: Eating muffin buns and berries by the steamy kitchen window The taste of the spray he takes and he learns to give There was milk and toast and honey and a bowl of oranges too Fresh salmon frying and the tide rolling in She may bake some brownies today.....Annie bakes her cakes and her breads and she gathers flowers for her home Some get the gravy, some get the gristle I miss my clean white linen and my fancy French cologne (or are we supposed to say Freedom cologne now? ;-)) I wound up fixing dinner for them and Boston Jim Like magazines fading in dusty gray attics The Boticelli black boy with the fuschias in his hair is breathing in women like oxygen The wind is in from Africa You see that summer storm brewing in the southern sky (yes you can smell changes in the weather) The place where you can stand and press your hands like it was bubble bath in dust piled high as me (I love this line) And we all know there are many more... Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 14:28:36 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: hissing of the summer lawns No offense, Les, but Joni is full of crap. The title may refer to lawn sprinklers but the THEME is anything but pedestrian. THOSL may be the most cohesive, most artfully drawn concept album of her generation. She's wrestling with the Big Themes here. Maybe she's uncomfortable with these themes. In the liner notes she completely backs away from spelling it out. Maybe she thinks a rowdy songwriter/performer would look like a poser if she talked about it. Anyway, there are still many thousands of posts unwritten about how fun yet thoroughly cerebral THOSL is. Sure, she wants the public to think it's simple and fun. Then she slips that High Minded Poetry by 'em. It stays with 'em and they come back again and again. They're hooked for life. Ask me how I know. Not complaining though, Lama Les said,>> From the 1979 Rolling Stone interview: "The basic theme of the album, which everybody thought was so abstract, was just any summer day in any neighborhood when people turn their sprinklers on all up and down the block. It's just that hiss of suburbia." http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=946 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 18:53:05 +0000 From: "Clive Brothers" Subject: Blue Tapestry - Nettlebed Quite outstanding concert.The best versions of "This flight tonight" and "Woodstock" I've ever heard.Even better set than last year.The quality of these musicians is unparalleled.We took non-Joni friends who were absolutely thrilled by the experience.I can't praise Blue Tapestry enough for such pure entertainment value. The good news is that they have just announced an extra gig on 7th August at Nettlebed.Get down there if you haven't yet had a chance to see them.It's an unforgettable night. cbros _________________________________________________________________ Overloaded with spam? With MSN 8, you can filter it out http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&pgmarket=en-gb&XAPID=32&DI=1059 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 15:01:33 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: hissing of the summer lawns (Mondegreened) (NJC) In a message dated 4/13/2003 1:24:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, mm@celebrityseries.org writes: > Ashara heard on "Hissing": > > Heard: "Italians are paper minded males" > Actual: "Battalions of paper minded males" > From: Harry's House/Centerpiece > > LOVE IT!!!!!!! lol!!! What region of Italy do you think Joni had in mind? > Let's start a thread on THAT one! Oops, she didn't say it. My bad. ;~) > You know........the more I think about this, the more I just realized what I am sure is an absolute truth. All of you are jealous, because I heard all the *real* words in Joni's lyrics. You suckers all read the album jackets, and *believed* what you read on them, and never knew all about the Italians and probably never even *heard* of Robert Hayes, I bet!! Just little green-eyed monsters running around the JMDL.........I know it! Hugs, Mondegreen Maven Millie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 15:02:09 EDT From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Fwd: Rickie Lee Jones Return-path: From: KJHSF@aol.com Full-name: KJHSF Message-ID: <1d2.750dc6f.2bcb0cf2@aol.com> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 14:56:50 EDT Subject: Re: Rickie Lee Jones To: ukulelelarry@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/alternative by demime 0.97c X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain In a message dated 4/13/2003 1:50:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ukulelelarry@yahoo.com writes: > BTW, anybody remember the little rhubarb Joni and > Ricki Lee had years back (in the pages of Rolling > Stone, I believe) about "living the jazz life?" > I think the little flare-up was in Musician magazine, actually. I also think that the feud (the war of the berets) is over because I recall Rickie and Joni being signed to the same label in the nineties, and Rickie giving an interview in which, when given the opportunity, she spoke a little more kindly about Joni. I don't recall the actual text verbatim, but the interviewer asked Rickie about her and Joni being characterized as depressing, to which Rickie replied, "Well, we were sad girls back then." In any case, the tone was decidedly more kind than it had been previously. But when Sheryl Crow was mentioned, Rickie said, "I don't discuss Sheryl Crow." End of discussion. Rickie is incredibly talented. Quite temperamental in concert, from my experiences. Her website has TONS of downloads and "bootlegs" of live performances that you can purchase and for which she receives some financial reimbursement. I think Joni's site could profit from some of the same. I would love to be able to purchase copies of Joni's Jazz in NYC, for example, and it would be nice for Joni to see some royalty pennies for that. Ken ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #237 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)