From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #235 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, April 12 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 235 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: joni and tori nexus [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Ginsberg, NAMBLA, njc [David Marine ] (NJC) Stryngs CD [AsharaJM@aol.com] Re: hissing of the summer lawns ["ron" ] Re: Joni, Norah and other femmes, Ginsberg and NAMBLA ["Larry D." ] Re: Desert Island Discs [PassScribe@aol.com] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #127 [PassScribe@aol.com] Re: Joni walking off during show [PassScribe@aol.com] Re: Suburbia [PassScribe@aol.com] RE: Ginsberg, NAMBLA, njc ["theodore" ] Re: Childhood Sexuality NJC ["PAUL PETERSON" ] Re: hissing of the summer lawns [Randy Remote ] re your nambla post [cul heath ] Re: Ann Marie McDonald/Hommage reviews [magsnbrei ] Re: Chicago njc [TerryM2222@aol.com] re your jmdl post [cul heath ] The "real" Joni [Little Bird ] re gay men not speaking up [cul heath ] Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #234 -- NAMBLA, etc. NJC [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #234 -- NAMBLA, etc. NJC [colin ] RE: Childhood Sexuality NJC ["theodore" ] re: the hissing [=?iso-8859-1?Q?Emiliano_Pati=F1o?= ] Re: Joni's "praise" of Laura Nyro [Bobsart48@aol.com] (no subject) [bra811@aol.com] Joni and the young women folk [emil thompson ] Re: hissing of the summer lawns [Catherine McKay ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #127 [Catherine McKay ] RE: snow and other smells..NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 14:35:07 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: joni and tori nexus In a message dated 4/12/2003 1:32:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, davidsapp@peoplepc.com writes: > Chaka Khan does backup on DJRD - can't remember I think it is on Dreamland. > And Wendy & Lisa from Prince's band provide back-up vocals on "Tea-Leaf Prophecy"...Karen Perris (The Innocence Mission) does back-up vocal on "Cherokee Louise". But all in all, very few females on Joni's records. I think she just prefers the company of men. Bob NP: Yvette In English ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 12:07:10 -0700 From: David Marine Subject: Re: Ginsberg, NAMBLA, njc Hi Colin -- You said: > "it can discuss anything it wants but to pretend it doesn't want to > legalise adults having sex with children, ie adults abusing children, > adults preying on children, is naive." > I am no expert on NAMBLA, and I realize that the mere mention of the acronym is enough to sicken most. Perhaps the majority of its members are in fact abusers or potential abusers. I honestly don't know, although I always believed that abusers tended not to publicize their abuse. But I do think that in a free society it is valid to discuss a paradigm that has existed in many cultures, even if the culture we now live in rejects it. I also believe, for example, that consensual sex between an adult and, say, a 16 or 17 year old is not necessarily a horrible thing, although it is considered to be statutory rape in the US. So there may be some validity to an organization that questions sex laws in the US. However, I admit that I may simply be naive. I said: >> I can tell you now that all of you on this list who consider >> yourselves gay owe a huge debt of gratitude to Ginsberg, > You replied: > "really? I wonder about the children abused by people he gave support > to? Not saying here he told these people to abuse but he seems to be > arguing(or you do) that he gave support to the idea." Ginsberg was explicit in his condemnation not only of abuse of children, but abuse of any kind. Yes, really, as a free gay man, you DO owe a debt of gratitude to Ginsberg. The freedoms you now enjoy would not exist without people like him, who took the blows for speaking his mind, and whose work was key to the sexual revolution and gay rights movement. His decision to join NAMBLA was, according to him, a response to what he perceived as a witch-hunt by the Reagan administration. I suspect he saw in this a reflection of the ruination of the lives of many who were members of the Communist party. As a youth, he witnessed this destruction first-hand and I think it greatly informed his political decisions. That being said, he may simply have been wrong. In his later life he freely admitted that some of his advocacy was wrong-headed, misguided, or simply stupid. He was consistently honest, even about his own mistakes. Your points are certainly well-taken, and I believe that if Ginsberg had discovered that his political advocacy had brought harm to a child, he would have been horrified. Best, David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 15:08:56 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: (NJC) Stryngs CD OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Is $22.00 a lot to pay for a CD??? You bet your sweet ass, but this CD is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO damn good, it is worth twice the price!! I had the priveledge to hear Stryngs live last summer when I was in England, but OMG, OMG, OMG this is GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!! I highly recommend paypaling some money to Chris right away and getting your very own cpoy, not to mention supporting a fellow JMDLer. Hugs, Ashara wow ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 21:51:56 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: hissing of the summer lawns hi >>>>>les wrote >>>>>>>Prepare to be disappointed! If you can believe what Miss Mitchell says, that is... :-) ah waddoes she know abouddit??? thats what she *thought* she meant. actually, thanks les - i will now have to go and re adjust my ideas of the last 20 years. :-) and anyhow, its still a truly brilliant album. even after all these years it still moves me to tears just by the sheer beauty of the music alone. then you start listening to the lyrics...... ron ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 13:23:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "Larry D." Subject: Re: Joni, Norah and other femmes, Ginsberg and NAMBLA I recall several years ago reading a magazine interview with Joni in which she said something like, "it's difficult seeing your imitators succeed". I wonder if she (rightly or wrongly - you be the judge) sees most of the younger generation of female pop musicians as her imitators. As for Norah Jones, here's my two cents: I think she's a beautiful, talented young woman, but I also think her recent success is so vast and so fast that a backlash was inevitable. Personally, I prefer John Mayer and I think he deserved the best new artist grammy. But I begrudge Ms. Jones nothing - she is quite good. I bought her album over a year ago and by the time she was scooping up multiple grammy awards, I had pretty much been there and done that. Re: Ginsberg and NAMBLA. While I certainly acknowledge Ginsberg's artistry and his pioneering work for gay rights, the fact is that NAMBLA is an organization by for and about adult men who (at least) want to have sex with boys. Ginsberg made the choice to align himself with that group and I'm not surprised if that makes some people uncomfortable. BTW, pardon the naive question, but are there a whole lotta gay dudes on this list? Peace y'all. Larry D (the small and meek, who considers himself gay) www.larry-d.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 21:28:53 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Joni, Norah and other femmes, Ginsberg and NAMBLA Larry D. wrote: > >BTW, pardon the naive question, but are there a whole >lotta gay dudes on this list? > LOL! welcome to the club, Larry D.(not poking fun at you) > >Peace y'all. > >Larry D >(the small and meek, who considers himself gay) > >www.larry-d.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 21:37:18 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Ginsberg, NAMBLA, njc David Marine wrote: > Yes, really, as a free gay man, I wouldn't say I was 'free'/ yes thing sare different but we are still not eqaul in law. > you DO owe a debt of gratitude to Ginsberg. In the UK that goes to Wolfeden and the Earl of Arran-they were theones who cleared the way and changed the law. > > > > > That being said, he may simply have been wrong. In his later life he > freely admitted that some of his advocacy was wrong-headed, misguided, > or simply stupid then i am sure he would think this of his support of NAMBLA. Having said all that, my major beef is that anyone could support NAMBLA. No one is perfect and Ginsberg, like anyone else, is entiteld to be wrong. > . He was consistently honest, even about his own mistakes. Your points > are certainly well-taken, and I believe that if Ginsberg had > discovered that his political advocacy had brought harm to a child, he > would have been horrified. What i don't understadn is how an intelligent person could have made such a mistake. it doesn't take a genius to understadn what NAMBLA wnats-and it has precious little to do with poltical freedom, equality, or anything high minded. It's members/advocates to be able to fuck with boys with impunity. simple. It is also importnat to point out that to cite 16-17yr olds having sex with 19-20 year olds is NOT the issue, and is just a diversionary tacting that will not work. > > > Best, > > David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 16:42:16 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: Desert Island Discs In a message dated 4/12/03 3:01:53 AM, les@jmdl.com writes: << From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Joni's idiosyncratic pronunciation I was listening to David Gilmour on Desert Island Discs this morning. >> I've heard of this before but don't know if we get it in NYC area; where's it from and when is it broadcast? Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 16:42:18 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #127 In a message dated 4/12/03 3:01:53 AM, les@jmdl.com writes: << From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #126 I am not sure what is so controlled about the living spaces in the suburbs, either. Has this been your experience, living in the suburbs ? Bobsart Bob; I've lived in the suburbs ever since getting married and I'd have to say that they are definately "controlled living spaces." Many communities on Long Island (NY) have these cookie-cutter appearance since so many areas were developed at the same time. I live in one such area now that was built in the '40's and, if it wasn't for so many people renovating & expanding their houses, you could easilly have walked into the wrong one some time. Even today, when developers build in an area that was formerly a factory site or a school that was closed, they only offer several different types of homes and everybody has nearly the same size lot, etc. Often, even the streets imply a controlled envionment (our developement has all girls' names; I live on Erma, down the block is Ava, around the corner is Dorothy, etc., and a little bit further over is a different development with streets named after cars.) Then, take into account that certain roads become the busy ones where all the stores and malls are located and it goes on from there. Each mall has its large (anchor) stores and all the smaller ones; at least one pizzeria, one Chinese take-out, one electronics/appliance-type store, etc. I think in more rural areas, things are more open and less structured although each town usually has a business district (which makes sense.) Even in New York City (Manhattan), as controlled a living space as it might seem, there may be less structure than in suburbia. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 16:42:21 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni walking off during show In a message dated 4/12/03 3:01:53 AM, Jim writes: << I was livid, and lost a great deal of respect for Joni as "a person" that night. Much like Bob Murphy suggested, I felt so betrayed by her lack of professionalism and respect for her devoted audience that I have had a VERY hard time getting over it. I didn't play her music for close to a year, I don't believe, and have never truly forgiven her. Had I been Bob's friend - instead of already having 15 years of rabid fandom under my belt at that time - I would never have wanted to hear her name again, either. In the years since, thanks to interviews she has given, etc., I have come to view Joni (as "a person") as an egotistical prima donna. I have had to overcome that view to remain the fan that I am, since I've always liked my heroes to be, first and foremost, "nice people." I've been successful, though, which explains my continuing presence here. Best, (formerly Boston) Jim I've always had mixed feelings about wanting to meet some of the artists I'd loved over the years, thinking that I might not like them as "a person" and possibly being turned off of their music as a result. Unfortunately, this has never been a problem since I never really met any of my heroes. But, I talked to Todd Rundgren on the phone once during a Todd fan gathering and we all thought he was fabulous (answering our questions & chatting about any subject we wanted) on a call that was over a speaker so we all could hear everything. Likewise, other members of his band (at the time) Utopia. I have a good friend (gal) who was "in love" with Johnny Mathis many years ago (his biggest fan) and she got a friend of hers (who worked at a radio station) to arrange an interview (he almost never granted interviews at the time) and this friend of mine went along as "the photographer".... with a freakin' INSTAMATIC! Mathis was VERY kind to them, saw right through their ploy and still treated them wonderfully; even gave them each a kiss (my friend didn't wash her face for a week!) Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 16:42:20 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: Suburbia I << From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #126 Randy wrote: > These neighborhoods are mostly white, all rich, yards groomed, > everything under control. These things it shares with middle-class > suburbia. There are many well-maintained suburban communities on Long Island which are predominantly black or hispanic; others, which are predominantly white middle-class or others that are mostly Jewish or "upscale" (more professionals including all types of people.) Is the "all rich" juxtaposition with "middle class" not an oxymoron ? >> I don't think so. While most suburban communities on Long Island are composed of people who have something in common, I don't think "middle class" and "all rich" are the same thing. I consider myself "middle class" but I'm surely not "rich" by any stretch of the imagination. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 13:58:16 -0700 From: "theodore" Subject: RE: Ginsberg, NAMBLA, njc I really did not want to weigh in on this being a straight guy, but, it seemed to me if these guys have a public web site and possibly some organization, it is most likely better than having a lot of fear and repression and forcing them so deep into the closet that they wind up being abusers. Like this Westerfield case, I feel, not know, but would suspect, that he has been turned on by kids for a long time, and, did not dare let anyone know. He keeps jerking off and being torn by shame, one day he goes to far and acts out the sex part, he then does the murder to cover it up, because the 1st crime is so reprehensible to us, no one must ever know. I think that part is the greatest danger. He didn't kill the kid by screwing her, or whatever, it's bad but she would have survived, I think we all learn a lesson to try and be open and honest and let these guys come clean, so we can try to deal with it before it manifests itself so horribly. I think it's kind of whacky to be gay. I'm not saying I think it's wrong or anything bad really. It's just hard for me to imagine getting off like that. I tried it, and, it was not happening. I loved my friend but I didn't get any pleasure from fooling around with him, in fact it was horrible because it made him feel bad. Anyway, I don't understand what motivates these guys, but, if they could just fuck women and be happy, I don't think they would risk so much negativity and repression just to be weird. I guess what I am saying is yes, on the surface this seems to be something intolerable, but, stand back a second. They are coming clean with this website, at least by presenting a public forum. Maybe if you take advantage of their willingness to be honest and contact someone who can better answer your concerns and provide insight. You may be able to make a positive change. Right now you are at the worst case scenario almost total lack of understanding or compassion for these guys. Even if this is true and they are the enemy, knowing your enemy and keeping him close is the best way to defeat him. Ted Ps. Please don't email calling me a molester and what not, ok ... I didn't even go to the site and read this crap, just trying to take a sad song and make it better. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com] On Behalf Of David Marine Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 12:07 PM To: colin Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Ginsberg, NAMBLA, njc Hi Colin -- You said: > "it can discuss anything it wants but to pretend it doesn't want to > legalise adults having sex with children, ie adults abusing children, > adults preying on children, is naive." > I am no expert on NAMBLA, and I realize that the mere mention of the acronym is enough to sicken most. Perhaps the majority of its members are in fact abusers or potential abusers. I honestly don't know, although I always believed that abusers tended not to publicize their abuse. But I do think that in a free society it is valid to discuss a paradigm that has existed in many cultures, even if the culture we now live in rejects it. I also believe, for example, that consensual sex between an adult and, say, a 16 or 17 year old is not necessarily a horrible thing, although it is considered to be statutory rape in the US. So there may be some validity to an organization that questions sex laws in the US. However, I admit that I may simply be naive. I said: >> I can tell you now that all of you on this list who consider >> yourselves gay owe a huge debt of gratitude to Ginsberg, > You replied: > "really? I wonder about the children abused by people he gave support > to? Not saying here he told these people to abuse but he seems to be > arguing(or you do) that he gave support to the idea." Ginsberg was explicit in his condemnation not only of abuse of children, but abuse of any kind. Yes, really, as a free gay man, you DO owe a debt of gratitude to Ginsberg. The freedoms you now enjoy would not exist without people like him, who took the blows for speaking his mind, and whose work was key to the sexual revolution and gay rights movement. His decision to join NAMBLA was, according to him, a response to what he perceived as a witch-hunt by the Reagan administration. I suspect he saw in this a reflection of the ruination of the lives of many who were members of the Communist party. As a youth, he witnessed this destruction first-hand and I think it greatly informed his political decisions. That being said, he may simply have been wrong. In his later life he freely admitted that some of his advocacy was wrong-headed, misguided, or simply stupid. He was consistently honest, even about his own mistakes. Your points are certainly well-taken, and I believe that if Ginsberg had discovered that his political advocacy had brought harm to a child, he would have been horrified. Best, David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 16:58:52 -0400 From: "PAUL PETERSON" Subject: Re: Childhood Sexuality NJC Someone wrote that gay JMDL'ers have been silent on this issue. Well here's an opinion from a gay man. I think the issue of whether one is pro or anti NAMBLA obfuscates a larger and much more essential issue: whether children of any age should be permitted to experience sexual pleasure without interference from adults.I believe they should. I believe that the concept that children are physically ready but not emotionally ready for sex is completely wrong. Biology determines physical as well as emotional maturity. The only reason the two seem to be at odds is that our society with its sex negative methods of child rearing prevent children from expressing their love and sexuality together until years after they are physically ready to do so. This gap creates all the guilt, frutrations and fears that young adults eventually have to overcome. If adults would support their children's sexual experimentation instead of prohibiting it, the children would not become the easy prey of criminal pedophiles. Why? Because pedophiles use children's fear and anxiety about sexuality in order to seduce them and depend on children's shame about sexual pleasure in order to keep them silent. As for NAMBLA my guess is that it's a mix of men who have a genuine loving sexual feeling for boys and wouldn't think of forcing any child to engage in sex and probably an equal number of dreadful seductive users who are caught up in a cycle of guilt and exploitation and are using the organization as just one of many ways to get at children sexually. But i don't think focusing on NAMBLA as the root of child exploitation makes much sense. The way to protect children is to support their genuine sexual feelings and experiences so that they will have no trouble saying no to an adult who doesn't have their best interests in mind. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 14:15:11 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: hissing of the summer lawns Also in this interview is another topic we've been discussing. I assume it the same show in Boston: Q:Was there an instance when you walked offstage after two songs? Joni: There was one time that I was onstage for one song. And I left. I felt very bad for the audience. It was impossible for me to continue. There's that old show-business axiom that the show must go on. But if I listed for you the strikes that were against me that night, I think that you could dig it. It's not easy to leave an audience sitting there. I was still in bad health from going out on Rolling Thunder, which was mad. Heavy drama, no sleepa circus. I'd requested before the show went on to get out of it. But it was too late. I had bronchitis. A bone in my spine was out of place and was pinching like crazy. So I was in physical pain. I was in emotional pain. I was going with someone in the band, and we were in the process of splitting up. We were in a Quonset hut, and the sound was just ricocheting. And I just made the decision. Concerning other women: I have a few good women friends. I like them and I trust them. But generally speaking, I'm a little afraid of women. and I would love to make new women friends, but I hardly have time to do justice to the ones I have. RR Les Irvin wrote: > At 4/12/2003 12:56 AM, ron wrote: > >and if it really is about sprinklers im gonna be really, really disppointed. > > Prepare to be disappointed! If you can believe what Miss Mitchell says, > that is... :-) > > From the 1979 Rolling Stone interview: > > "The basic theme of the album, which everybody thought was so abstract, was > just any summer day in any neighborhood when people turn their sprinklers > on all up and down the block. It's just that hiss of suburbia." > > http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=946 > > Les... by way of your friendly neighborhood JMDL search engine. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 14:27:12 -0700 From: cul heath Subject: re your nambla post Hi Wally, May we call this a brave post? I think so. i really don't know how to compose this post without getting into trouble with a lot of list members but i'll try. And a good try it is...nevertheless: Its also socially suicidal because the topic is so emotionally charged that it is rarely discussed sans hysteria of one sort or another. Hence the great American Sexual Dysfuction continues unabated, in no small measure exactly because these sorts of issues are boobytrapped in such a way that even showing interest in the questions raises suspicions that the asker has purient intertest as a motive. I rebuke all those sorts of intellectual dishonesty and would answer your questions (which are good and proper) in this manner: [All hail the Pendant!] my main question is whether it is possible that kids of say 12 or 13 could be ready and willing to have sex with older men and that in these situations intimacy may not constitute sexual abuse or child molesting. Yes it is possible. (I would lose the gender aspect though since the question really speaks to age differential and in any case applies to both sexes.) Context is everything. These things are culturally determined and are fluid across the centuries. And of course because we are relatively so short-lived we tend to adopt, or at least be shaped by, the mores of our time period and have a difficult time not thinking of them as "writ by the stars themselves". The fluidty is not apparent to us. It takes the greatest effort to liberate oneself from those things that are the most culturally given. In my estimation, even though it is quite possible for an 11 year old to have healthy inimate relations (sexual or not) with an 80 year old, our present culture is not capable (or even interested in becoming capable) in supporting or condoning such a relationship. We don't have the emotional or political language to construct a social contract to guarentee that such an arrangement would protect the child from the advantages of superior knowledge, experience and physicality possessed by the adult. In that these things are not infrequently used by adults to children's detriment even in situations not immediately in our focus, lends credence to societies position of erroring on the side of caution and opting for a blanket ban on such behavior. It is too utopian I think to assume otherwise. The biggest problem I have with how society reacts to discovering such relationships is that it is at least as socially destucutive all around as the questionable behavior itself. Making it purely a justice matter is a haphazard application of the wrong type of bandage and hence the penalties are more a product of the hysterical dimension than any rational aim at harm reduction. [All Hail the Pendant's Egress!] I had an earlier coming out as it were and I can assure you that the relationships I had with older boys and men were no more harmful than those I have had as an adult. Talk to Joni about it...man to man to man to man...strung out on another man... and they wonder why we faggots are so Mitchell prone. Because she speaks our language, silly. Congrats on a great post. be well, cul Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 05:05:38 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: nambla njc i really don't know how to compose this post without getting into trouble with a lot of list members but i'll try. i have always been very interested in nambla. i am not familiar with it or its guiding principles. i know that the ilga didn't accept nambla as a member organization for a long time (i don't know whether this situation has changed) and that its existence has caused a lot of controversy in the gay political arena. my main question is whether it is possible that kids of say 12 or 13 could be ready and willing to have sex with older men and that in these situations intimacy may not constitute sexual abuse or child molesting. in my experience, i was very much in love with an older man and ready for intimacy when i was 11. if i had had sex with him, would that invariably have hurt my psyche or development? what are the bases on which the age of consent is determined? i assure you all that these questions are made honestly and respectfully. wally ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 14:28:07 -0700 (PDT) From: magsnbrei Subject: Re: Ann Marie McDonald/Hommage reviews AsharaJM@aol.com wrote: >At one point, I posted a long article reviewing the whole Hommage, and >that info would be there. Les put it up on the website, but I can't seem >to find it now. Les? Then Les wrote: <>" http://www.jmdl.com/performances/docs/011019.cfm>> Yep, thanks Les. There ya go, Mags. All your questions answered. thanks Ashara & Les for the help/info. We've now seen both the Canadian and the American productions (two countries in one household sure does help eh? :P) tks for the envelope Ashes I look forward to reading the link. Mags, just back from a very hairy day driving to nyc (waved at patrick leader et al ..then to newark&back then out to see Tom Rush tonight with honeyboi. You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 17:28:35 EDT From: TerryM2222@aol.com Subject: Re: Chicago njc Don't feel bad, Azeem. I didn't like it either. Guess we're quite the minority! Terry www.addconsults.com > > Just goes to show how much I know, eh? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 14:39:09 -0700 From: cul heath Subject: re your jmdl post Great post...very rational, very adult. :) cul >Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 10:11:14 EDT >From: SoulQuest7@aol.com >Subject: Re: Ginsberg, relevant Joni content at the end > >Interesting debaste on sex and age-of-consent laws, but not very Joni-ish. >Age of consent laws have always fluctuated throughout history from culture to >culture, and vary from state to state. At one point in West Virginia it used >to be legal for women to marry at age 14, and no one thought that was bizarre >in certain segments of the population. Remember the "scandal" that erupted >with Jerry Lee Lewis married his thirteen year old cousin before he divorced >his last wife? Think about it-- Jerry was caught off guard by the scandal. >Most of our modern views of sex come from our beliefs about education-- it's >no mere coincidence that the typical age of consent, 18, is after high >school. Yet how many of us violated that law? It a 19 year old has sex with >a 17 year old, that could be statutory rape in some states, yet how many of >us would consider it rape if it was voluntary? I know older men who have >wives and lovers that are young (yet legal age), and the same is true of some >gay relationships. Big deal. Grow up. Love happens, and not always in the >tidy constraints that some people would like. However, I think there is a >logical reason for age of consent laws and support them, but I think 18 is >bit ridiculous considering the experiences of most of the people I know. >Maybe 16 would be more realistic? I also think Allen Ginsberg is a pivotal >person in the counterculture, although like most articulators of the 60s >ethos, he often took things to far!! I don't anything about NAMBLA or it's >beliefs, so I can't comment on that. =-- Jai Ma-== Nick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 14:42:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Little Bird Subject: The "real" Joni I don't know if you can assume that the famous performer who walks off stage or the person you see being difficult in an interview is the "real" person at all. There is a huge amount of artifice to playing the fame game. Plenty of famous people over the years have detested giving interviews or have been reluctant performers, but that does not necessarily reflect on them as everyday people. A famous person who walks off stage during a concert or gives an arrogant-sounding interview could go home and be the most loving parent, the most attentive lover, the most kind and generous friend. There is an inability on the part of a lot of fans to appreciate this dynamic, this difference, between the famous artifice and the actual human being behind it. We, as fans, hold them to standards they may not feel comfortable with. The media, too, applies their own rules to the famous people who waltz onto their spot-lit stages. If they don't conform, they are "difficult to interview" or are "arrogant and dismissive." But at the dinner table they may tell dirty jokes, or may tuck their kids in at night. They may wash their own cars and be the most approachable human being you could ever hope to meet. Put them in an interview situation or on a stage where they don't feel comfortable and you get a different side. Famous people don't owe us anything just like we don't owe it to them to be forever loyal. And assuming we could ever know the "real" Joni is a bit far fetched. - -Andrew Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 14:48:55 -0700 From: cul heath Subject: re gay men not speaking up As to the lack of gays responding to the recent nambla centered posts...for my part it was because I just saw the conversation immmediate to my posts. I only get digests and have a rather nonchalant attitude toward checking my email mail... i'm the same way with answering the phone. Yet I can understand reticence on the part of many gay men when this topic arises...its just too loaded for the most part because of the archetype of gay=molester laid on us by the great collect for so many years. Me? I couldn't give a fuck about what society thinks. Society is one mighty stupid beast if you ask me. Get a room of 100 brilliant folk together and they still tend to build a reactionary and panic driven gestalt. cul ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 17:55:57 EDT From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #234 -- NAMBLA, etc. NJC Why can't a gay man publicly speak out against this issue and gain some integrity and respect still baffles me If a gay man did speak out publicly against "man-boy love" or against those who advocate it, do you think anyone would broadcast, publish or give a flying rat's behind about it? No, the news/entertainment industry is far more interested in putting the spotlight on those who advocate the "deviant" point of view in the first place....way more sensational and interesting and comforting for the oceans of people who think all gay men are deviant anyway. I marched in my first gay pride march in Washington DC in 1978 and was uncomfortable then, as I am now, with the inclusion of NAMBLA in the gay movement (if there is a gay movement, but that's another discussion). When I was in college and active in the gay student group, one of the school's tenured faculty members got into hot water because he was found to be molesting, on an ongoing basis, the nine-year-old son of a lesbian friend. It caused all sorts of fraction and friction in the community as some gay men rallied round the guy because he was "just expressing his love" and had long been an active community volunteer and leader. But I think we all knew that something sickening and wrong had happened and that the woman and her son had been terribly used. But, getting back to today's NAMBLA discussion, I want to point out that there is some homophobia in all of this....if an organization of straight people wanted to change the age of consent to 14 for heterosexual relationships (and legal marriages), most people would object, but not with the degree of disgust and anger aimed at the gay pedophiles of NAMBLA. I'm sure a lot of you disagree with that, but I think it's true. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 00:21:11 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #234 -- NAMBLA, etc. NJC BRYAN8847@aol.com wrote: >.if an organization of straight >people wanted to change the age of consent to 14 for heterosexual >relationships (and legal marriages), most people would object, but not with >the degree of disgust and anger aimed at the gay pedophiles of NAMBLA. I'm >sure a lot of you disagree with that, but I think it's true. > well bryan, thinking something is true does not make it so. the idea of any adult str8 or gay, having sex with children, or wnating such acts to be legal is abhorrent to me. Accusing people of nbeing homophobic for expressing their disgust is rather silly, as well as just another way of avoiding the rela issue here-the children. > >Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 00:24:40 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Childhood Sexuality NJC PAUL PETERSON wrote: > Because pedophiles use children's >fear and anxiety about sexuality in order to seduce them and depend on >children's shame about sexual pleasure in order to keep them silent. > > this is ignorant crap!!!! Adults who use children in this way rely on FEAR and POWER. Children keep quiet out of fear and sahem -but the shame has nothing to do with sexaul pelasure. i can assure you a baby or a 5 year old has no concept of sexual pleasure to feel ashamed of. god, id espair of our socety when such ignorant runbbish is still perpertuated by so called rtaional intelligent people. No wonder children are not safe. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 16:46:44 -0700 From: "theodore" Subject: RE: Childhood Sexuality NJC Ok people do this to other people too, and they are not pedophiles. I thought that pedophiles and rapist's were different. Isn't there a percentage of people that are pedophiles. I don't know. I do not think it's cool to fiddle around with little kids. I guess what I'm saying if you have the misfortune to be born a pedophile are you doomed. This stuff is common, 1 out of 7 kids is a victim of incest. I find it hard to believe these people are all pedophiles. It's interesting how much we don't know. And I don't believe it's because we want to make excuses or we are just dumb. This stuff is not readily talked about. A great deal of people have some sexual issue in their past that is unresolved. 1 out 3 women in this country has been a rape victim. That's a lot of negative stuff going around. I understand your emotions on this, it is fairly weird to me I can't really imagine the motivation, but, your feelings I think are clouding the issue. If you have better info there is obviously a genuine concern here that people want to address in the interest of being part of the solution. Do you think it's ok to fuck the dead? Ted - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com] On Behalf Of colin Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 4:25 PM To: PAUL PETERSON Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Childhood Sexuality NJC PAUL PETERSON wrote: > Because pedophiles use children's >fear and anxiety about sexuality in order to seduce them and depend on >children's shame about sexual pleasure in order to keep them silent. > > this is ignorant crap!!!! Adults who use children in this way rely on FEAR and POWER. Children keep quiet out of fear and sahem -but the shame has nothing to do with sexaul pelasure. i can assure you a baby or a 5 year old has no concept of sexual pleasure to feel ashamed of. god, id espair of our socety when such ignorant runbbish is still perpertuated by so called rtaional intelligent people. No wonder children are not safe. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 02:12:38 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Emiliano_Pati=F1o?= Subject: re: the hissing - --- mia ortlieb wrote: > As a child, I used to be somewhat of a tomboy, and I > played outside in the > trees, fields, and parks alot. (then I grew up and > discovered insects, yuk!) > I remember having intensely humid, hot summers > sometimes here in Wisconsin, > and I remember laying on the ground level with the > grass and actually seeing > the grass sizzle and steam under the heat.. it did > sort of make a "hissing" > sound to me. It may have just been my wild > imagination, or perhaps it is > along the lines of "hearing the humming in the wires > in the walls".....which > I used to hear, as well. and Catherine wrote: > You're not the only one, Mia. I swear to God, between > the heat and the bugs and stuff just growing, that > summer lawns do hiss. And I hear humming in the walls > too (now that could be tinnitus, or schizophrenia, but > I think not - wires do hum.) being myself an urbanite but countrylover, I agree with you at the factual hissings and hummings of material (that's why it's *no* schizophrenia, uf, relieving, LOL) things in summer... on certain quiet nights one almost audibily feels the celestial vault, the heavens above... If it shoulld be the beginning of *real* age of aquarius (as you find, I've been listening "Hair" after sodomy's lost thread) no doubt the strongest, the more terrifical (no more helicopters, no more gun mach.s) sound that *all-of-we" could hear: the drums of "Slouching towards Bethlehem" Yeah! yours: Emiliano from Galicia NP again and again and again "Slouching towards Bethlehem" (at last I've got NRH!!!) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 02:33:04 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Emiliano_Pati=F1o?= Subject: NRH... what's exxon blue? Hi, dears JMDLers! I'm living the cheerfully hipnotic "Passion Play (When All The Slaves Are Free) and wondering: what means "Exxon blue"? Is there some blue sign asociated with that oil company? (I do not recall by now that signs... and you should drive me to a psychiatrist if I would be in the mood, at night, to visit its web page..... Internet is dedicated exclusively to Joni tonight). Or there is some association with the blue flame that makes burning gasoline? hmmm... NP: really nothing as I write (no muzak here) setting pause off: Cherokee Louise ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 20:34:27 -0400 From: "Rache A" Subject: Re: weird joni pronunciation I've been really busy and haven't had much time at all to check email...still getting caught up. The pronunciations I've noticed are in early songs she pronounces 'neon' like 'nayon' (on The Dawntreader & Carnival in Kenora), but later she pronounced it normally. Also one she still does, on T'log, 'percolator' like 'perculator' (from The Last Time I saw Richard - all 3 recordings I believe). And i know one a lot of people say, though I've always been taught otherwise, 'bury' like 'burry', on Sex Kills (on TI). i know this isn't going to put a space in, though i'll still try, I'll just type ... Last summer when I went to the rock 'n' roll hall of fame, I had written down those lyrics from My Old Man, but I can't find the paper (it's probably on my desk, which means no chance of finding it) and I can't remember the lyrics, something about London & rock 'n' roll, children, rock 'n' roll sundays? anyone have these? bye, Rache NP: Emmylou Harris and the Nash Ramblers at the Ryman (out of print but if you can find it it's well worth it!) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 20:47:37 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's "praise" of Laura Nyro Heather wrote: > When you compare this statement from Joni about Laura with the others on the > jacket of Kort's book ... Rickie Lee Jones, Donna Summer, Rosanne Cash, > Mary > Travers, Suzanne Vega ... Joni statement seems lack luster. > Perhaps that all makes sense, though. When you compare the position from which those other (lackluster, relative to Joni) "artists" speak, that is. Again, everyone on the PGA tour sings Tiger's praises, and I am sure many of the lesser lights are effusive about David Toms and Mike Weir, who are wonderful players. But you will not hear Tiger gushing over those guys - it would sound phony. Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 21:25:31 EDT From: bra811@aol.com Subject: (no subject) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 02:29:03 +0100 From: emil thompson Subject: Joni and the young women folk I just wanted to offer my tuppence happeny worth to this thread about Joni's somewhat dismissive approach towards other younger female artists. For my money, none of them actually touch her in terms of musicality and lyrical content, not to mention the ability to move the feelings as she does (witness the musical tour de force that is Paprika Plains, who else has done anything close to that ?) also what is bass playing without Jacko ?, and I would agree that Billie is in touch with the spirit more so than any of the others of her era, she gives me the hairs on the neck vibe. In the modern genre Ricki Lee comes about the closest to the musical and emotional excellence of Joni. What ever happened to Ricki Lee ? Obviously, at the end of the day it's all a subjective discussion but for me, well, I know what's a soul song when I hear it. love to all emil ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 22:44:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: hissing of the summer lawns --- Les Irvin wrote: > At 4/12/2003 12:56 AM, ron wrote: > >and if it really is about sprinklers im gonna be > really, really disppointed. > > Prepare to be disappointed! If you can believe what > Miss Mitchell says, > that is... :-) > > From the 1979 Rolling Stone interview: > > "The basic theme of the album, which everybody > thought was so abstract, was > just any summer day in any neighborhood when people > turn their sprinklers > on all up and down the block. It's just that hiss of > suburbia." > > http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=946 I think Joni was pulling someone's leg. Maybe her own. Yes, she's talking about the sprinklers, but she's also talking about the dark underbelly of all that apparent perfection - whether she realizes it or not :) ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 23:00:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #127 --- PassScribe@aol.com wrote: I've lived in the suburbs ever since > getting married and I'd have to > say that they are definately "controlled living > spaces." Many communities on > Long Island (NY) have these cookie-cutter appearance > since so many areas were > developed at the same time. I live in one such area > now that was built in > the '40's and, if it wasn't for so many people > renovating & expanding their > houses, you could easilly have walked into the wrong > one some time. > Even today, when developers build in an area > that was formerly a factory > site or a school that was closed, they only offer > several different types of > homes and everybody has nearly the same size lot, > etc. Often, even the > streets imply a controlled envionment (our > developement has all girls' > names; I live on Erma, down the block is Ava, around > the corner is Dorothy, > etc., and a little bit further over is a different > development with streets > named after cars.) The neighbourhood I lived in in my teens had streets with names that all sounded somewhat autumnal or vaguely Indian. My street was Golden Orchard Drive; others were Lonefeather Crescent, Cedartree Crescent, Burning Elm, Hollow Log, and so on. Another subdivision nearby had streets named after ships (the builder's name was Shipp). And so on. When we moved into that neighbourhood, there were certain things you weren't "allowed" to do - the one that stands out most for me was, you weren't allowed to have a clothesline, because they were too unsightly or something. All the cable and phone lines were buried underground, so they didn't want any lines and wires messing things up. You were allowed to have one of those rotary things that turn around like a pinwheel, but no clothesline. There were a few other stupid and snooty things, but I don't remember them much now and I'm talking about local neighbourhood "rules" as opposed to municipal bylaws, some of which can also be pretty weird in some communities. Then again, there are neighbourhoods where even the colours you use to paint your house have to be approved. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 00:20:33 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: snow and other smells..NJC oh yes, catherine, i can smell snow. it smells metallic and a little bit like bleach too. i can sense snow too. i can usually predict the first snow. we seldom get snow in buenos aires because the combination of temperature and pressure is almost never right. when the pressure is right it is too cold to snow and when the temperature is right the pressure is too low. but it does snow a little further south in the buenos aires province and i usually get there an hour or so before it starts. i always loved joni's line "geared to changing weather" because that's the way i am. i think it must something atavistic and we human animals have a weather sense too. i am very deeply affected by weather phenomena. the beginning of spring depresses me, may be because of the sudden lengthening of the days. this is weird because it should be the opposite. the moments before a storm i become very tense and irritable, and then the storm soothes me completely. wally ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #235 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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