From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #234 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, April 12 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 234 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- nambla njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: FROG LOAN - njc and completely stupid [colin ] Re: Ginsberg, relevant Joni content at the end [colin ] Jokes you can sing with a Rolling Stone thread NJC ["Gillian Apter" ] RE: nambla's aim NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: hissing of the summer lawns (Ron) [cul heath ] Brilliant Blue Tapestry [John Sprackland ] snow and other smells..NJC ["Lucy Hone" ] Re: joni's blue on the life and times / woman of heart and mind [AsharaJM] Joni on American Masters ... [Don Rowe ] Stryngs (NJC) [Gertus@aol.com] re: Joni on American Masters [SoulQuest7@aol.com] was...Joni on AM, now...message for Joni... Completion [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: Joni on American Masters ... [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Ginsberg, relevant Joni content at the end [SoulQuest7@aol.com] weird joni pronunciation. [anne@sandstrom.com] Re: Ginsberg, relevant Joni content at the end njc ["mack watson-bush" <] Re: hissing of the summer lawns [Les Irvin ] RE: joni and tori nexus ["Heather" ] Re: hissing of the summer lawns [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: hissing of the summer lawns ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: Ute and Joni [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: nambla njc ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: Joni on American Masters ... [Dflahm@aol.com] Re: nambla njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] richie havens njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: joni and tori nexus ["J.David Sapp" ] Re: nambla njc ["Lori Fye" ] Re: joni and tori nexus [Little Bird ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 05:05:38 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: nambla njc i really don't know how to compose this post without getting into trouble with a lot of list members but i'll try. i have always been very interested in nambla. i am not familiar with it or its guiding principles. i know that the ilga didn't accept nambla as a member organization for a long time (i don't know whether this situation has changed) and that its existence has caused a lot of controversy in the gay political arena. my main question is whether it is possible that kids of say 12 or 13 could be ready and willing to have sex with older men and that in these situations intimacy may not constitute sexual abuse or child molesting. in my experience, i was very much in love with an older man and ready for intimacy when i was 11. if i had had sex with him, would that invariably have hurt my psyche or development? what are the bases on which the age of consent is determined? i assure you all that these questions are made honestly and respectfully. wally ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 09:06:42 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: FROG LOAN - njc and completely stupid Catherine McKay wrote: >Nice try, Colin. I make no secret of my nasty habits. >Now where'd I leave that gin bottle? > > > right next to the keyboard? Blink your eyes a few times, they will focus, and you will see it.... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 09:20:55 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Ginsberg, relevant Joni content at the end David Marine wrote: > Hey list -- > Ginsberg was an activist, and at the time he joined NAMBLA, the > Reagan administration was on a witch-hunt. NAMBLA's charter > specifically states that it is NOT in favor of any illegal sexual > activity, but rather a discussion of the laws that dictate what sexual > practices are allowed. It wants to change the law to allow sex adults to have sex with children. I find that abhorrent and cannot udnerstand how an intelleigent adult would support such a thing. > For example, In Hawaii a 14-year-old boy is free to choose his sex > partners, male or female? Even if so, an adult should not be having sex with a 14 year old(boy or girl). the power diferrential is too great. Even if the 14 year old is 'willing',it is still abuse. > NAMBLA works to address these discrepancies. just the name/acronym NAMBLA makes it clear what this is about. > No doubt there are evil predators in NAMBLA, but that does not mean > the group should not be free to have an open discussion of sexuality > and the laws that govern sexuality. it can discuss anything it wants but to pretend it doesn't want to legalise adults having sex with children, ie adults abusing children, adults preying on children, is naive. > > > This advocacy of Ginsberg's is in keeping with his life's work, which > openly and fearlessly challenged government oppression of free speech > and consensual sexuality. there can be no consent between and adult and a child. despite the fact peodophiles use this 'defense' all the time.(i.ebut the child consented.) > I can tell you now that all of you on this list who consider > yourselves gay owe a huge debt of gratitude to Ginsberg, really? I wonder about the children abused by people he gave support to? Not saying here he told these people to abuse but he seems to be arguing(or you do) that he gave support to the idea. > as regards art, art is art regarless of the morals etc of the person who created it. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 09:29:10 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: nambla njc Wally Kairuz wrote: >i really don't know how to compose this post without getting into trouble >with a lot of list members but i'll try. > >i have always been very interested in nambla. i am not familiar with it or >its guiding principles. i know that the ilga didn't accept nambla as a >member organization for a long time (i don't know whether this situation has >changed) and that its existence has caused a lot of controversy in the gay >political arena. > lets hope the situationhas not changed. There are enough people who think gay men want sex with boys without giving them ammunition. > >my main question is whether it is possible that kids of say 12 or 13 could >be ready and willing to have sex with older men and that in these situations >intimacy may not constitute sexual abuse or child molesting. > no. not just in my opinion but also inthe opion of the experts in achild abuse and chldren. > in my >experience, i was very much in love with an older man and ready for intimacy >when i was 11. if i had had sex with him, would that invariably have hurt my >psyche or development? > yes but because oyu didn't, how would you know for sure? > > Apart form that, there would be something seriously wrong with the psyche of the man who would wnat to have had sex with you at 11. 11 year olds are CHIDLREN and regardless of your desires, no ADULT should be having any sort of sexual relationship with you. Quite simply no matter how provocative or enticing or flirtatious a child is, it is the adults responsability to say NO. Also it would suggest a serious lack of love and support on the life of the 11 year old who would want this. Sexual beahviour bewteen children is a different matter,is common, and is not abuse because ofthe ages involved. However, if the sexual behaviour wasbetween say an 11 year old and a 7 year old,then that would be an abusive situation. there is plenty of exceelnt information available on this subject and it is easy to educate oneself about this subject, and to get a good understanding of the rpoblems in herent in adult/child sexual abuse. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 10:32:29 +0200 From: "Gillian Apter" Subject: Jokes you can sing with a Rolling Stone thread NJC Catherine wrote: "The bank manager looks back at her and says... "It's a knickknack, Patty Whack. Give the frog a loan. His old man's a Rolling Stone." (You're singing it, aren't you?!! - - - I knew you would be.) OK, Catherine, here's another joke punchline you can sing. What's the difference between a Scottish farmer and Mick Jagger? The farmer sings... Hey! MacCloud! Get off of ma ewe! (sorry) gill in madrid ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 09:55:46 +0100 From: colin Subject: nambla's aim NJC This is from the NAMBLA website. there is no doubt this a 'peodophile charter', byt people whbo have no understandign of the dynamics involvde and whose only interest is being able to have sex with children without fear of punishment by the law. I have no respect for any argument that suggest it isotherwise. If Ginsberg supported this group, he was at best a fool, at elast in this area, and ignorant of the needs of children. In short this 'charter' that follows is big load of crap and is nothing more than a bunch of poedophiles trying to legitimaise their sick needs at the expense of the children they prfoess to 'love' they quite obviously do not know the meaning of the word. I would have serious doubts about the motives of anyone who supports their aims. Certainly,it would show how ignorant they are at the very least. People who truly love children, respect them, guide the, value them and DON NOT USE THEM FOR THEIR OWN GRATIFICATION. WELCOME! The North American Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) was formed in 1978. It was inspired by the success of a campaign based in Boston's gay community to defend against a local witchhunt. NAMBLA's goal is to end the extreme oppression of men and boys in mutually consensual relationships by: * building understanding and support for such relationships; * educating the general public on the benevolent nature of man/boy love; * cooperating with lesbian, gay, feminist, and other liberation movements; * supporting the liberation of persons of all ages from sexual prejudice and oppression. Our membership is open to everyone sympathetic to man/boy love and personal freedom. NAMBLA calls for the empowerment of youth in all areas, not just the sexual. We support greater economic, political and social opportunities for young people and denounce the rampant ageism that segregates and isolates them in fear and mistrust. We believe sexual feelings are a positive life force. We support the rights of youth as well as adults to choose the partners with whom they wish to share and enjoy their bodies. We condemn sexual abuse and all forms of coercion. Freely-chosen relationships differ from unwanted sex. Present laws, which focus only on the age of the participants, ignore the quality of their relationships. We know that differences in age do not preclude mutual, loving interaction between persons. NAMBLA is strongly opposed to age-of-consent laws and all other restrictions which deny men and boys the full enjoyment of their bodies and control over their own lives. NAMBLA does not provide encouragement, referrals or assistance for people seeking sexual contacts. NAMBLA does not engage in any activities that violate the law. We call for fundamental reform of the laws regarding relations between youths and adults. Today, many thousands of men and boys are unjustly ground into the disfunctional criminal justice system. Blindly, this system condemns consensual, loving relationships between younger and older people. NAMBLA's Prisoner Program, with limited resources, works to provide a modicum of humanity to some of these people. Click here to find out more. NAMBLA is a political, civil rights, and educational organization. We provide factual information and help educate society about the positive and beneficial nature of man/boy love. Become an active member! You can help in this historic struggle ! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 05:59:51 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: nambla's aim NJC colin, thank you for your comments and for the link. i will read everything very carefully and think about this issue. love, wally ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 03:38:20 -0700 From: cul heath Subject: Re: hissing of the summer lawns (Ron) Hi Ron, [Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 08:56:43 +0200 From: "ron" ....and if it really is about sprinklers im gonna be really, really disppointed.] Don't be disappointed, Ron...while the surface image IS referencing those spinning sprinklers, to my lights, they are being used because they are an icon for the suburban lifestyle and, further, life artifically maintained...and in general, artifice [...like everything looks smooth and green and uniform, and "no colour no contrast" but if you listen closely you can hear the hissing of snakes and evil and also just the basic primitive urges of mankind going on under all that repression. hence the picture of the snakes and tribal people on the cover.] Perfectly said. The tune "Jungle Line" focuses specifically on those ideas and many of the other tunes on HofSL are thematically related to the idea of being existentially insulated from the "real" needs of life as a consequence of being emeshed in the artifical demands of modern urban life. I really like the idea too of the "primitives" carrying the snake up toward the church (which itself is located just outside the "city", core of all that is artificially constructed). cul ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 11:43:22 +0100 From: John Sprackland Subject: Brilliant Blue Tapestry Final reminder, folks, that Blue Tapestry are at Southport Arts Centre tonight (Saturday 12th) at 8pm... and if you're there don't forget to ask a member of staff to point me out to you and come and say hello! Cheers John Sprackland In message <200304110700.h3B70Ame003484@smoe.org>, onlyJMDL Digest writes >I'm so glad I managed to get to the Blue Tapestry gig last night because it >was a great night's entertainment. Support act was David Hughes who I had >never seen before but is an excellent singer songwriter guitarist and >humourist and set the evening up well for the appearance of the main act. >What strikes you about this band, as well as the huge talent of all 5 >members, is their collective love for the music of Joni Mitchell and Carole >King and they frequently referred to the thrill they got from performing such >great songs. For this tour they have added 12 new songs to the repetoire. One >of the highligts, for me, was Chris Whiles opening the second half with a >beautiful rendition of Fiddle and the Drum. Tracks from Blue, C&S, Hejira, >WTRF and LOTC were covered with both Martin Allcock and Pete Zorn >contributing great bass on the Coyote and Black Crow in turn. Both Chris and >Julie Matthews have great voices for this project. So - if you get the >chance to see this band play - GO! > >Jacky >NP David Hughes "Recognised" - -- John Sprackland ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 12:16:22 +0100 From: "Lucy Hone" Subject: snow and other smells..NJC Hi all, been very very busy so not posting but reading anyway and wishing I had more free time......... In a reply to Mia, Catherine wrote as follows............ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 20:49:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: re: the hissing EDITED ........... And I hear humming in the walls too (now that could be tinnitus, or schizophrenia, but I think not - wires do hum.) Can anyone else smell snow coming? END OF QUOTE..... Yes I can smell snow... it smells like cold steel wool to me..... slightly metallic... and leaves a taste in the air like when you bite on a piece of tin foil and it twinges your fillings!!! Thunder storms, too, have a pre-smell and make the air hum and also make the hairs on my arms stand up...as to the humming sounds in the wall....... I would be in two minds about thinking it could be schizophrenia.... :-) One smell I love is in the summer, after rain has fallen when there has been a drought.....and the streets ease off their dust and seem to sigh in relief ; and there hangs in the air a dusty moisture for just a short time before the drought resumes. well that is my two cents for now. I have a huge stack of admin to do and e-mail into work today so I hope to be re-joining the world of the JMDL again soon. Thanks for the kitty and puppy pics Colin.... Hugs to you all Lucy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 08:57:17 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: joni's blue on the life and times / woman of heart and mind In a message dated 4/11/2003 10:57:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, magsnbrei@yahoo.com writes: > She is a Canadian actor, among other things, and she participated in the > Hommage for Joni in Toronto, October 2001. I think she recited one of > Joni's songs however I can't remember which one..anyone know? At one point, I posted a long article reviewing the whole Hommage, and that info would be there. Les put it up on the website, but I can't seem to find it now. Les? Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 06:23:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Joni on American Masters ... Thought I'd chime in with my dos pesos on WOHAM. While it certainly had it's interesting moments, in the end, I was kind of disappointed that it was so "mainstream." To an extent, that's understandable of course, since most of the planet isn't quite as closely focused on the minutae of Joni's life as we tend to be ... but not very much new light was shed on Joni's life and career. In the end it was pretty much a recitation of the chatper-and-verse POV. For instance: Joni appears on the music scene in the late 60s like some mythical Athena -- born fully formed from the skulls of Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young. We then spend nearly 1/3 of the film examining Joni's first four records, and her affair with Nash. By the time we get to Woodstock, there's barely an hour left to cover those 30+ "other years" ... Here's what really gets to me. HOSL isn't even mentioned ... then Hejira and DJRD are treated as merely a sort of dress rehearsal for Mingus. Then there's a 20 minute artistic rehabliltation of Mingus, so we can all be chastened about "not getting it the first time around." At least Herbie and Wayne's comments were salient. Here's where it gets really puzzling ... Joni puts out WTRF, marries Klein and then apparently takes the next 10 years off ... resurfacing only with the release of NRH. Honestly, if you didn't know the catalog, that's what this documentary would have you think. Which is tantamount to saying, "Don't get me started." ;-) Joni sings her swan song with TI, then sits down at her easel until her death. Oh, wait a minute, Joni's not dead -- but the film has this eeie quality about it that makes you feel like she is deceased. Part of this is created by the Ken Burn's pans-over-stills treatment a la "The Civi War". But the other thing that contributes is what sticks in my craw the worst. The talking heads ... "Nobody plumbed the depths of the soul, and did it with such honesty and integrity as ___________." Today, the NPR Program directors and New Yorker editors were called upon to fill in the blank with the name "Joni Mitchell." Never mind that these were the same folks who accused her of "navel gazing" and berated her lack of ability to write catchy melodies for 30 years. Tomorrow they'll be asked to fill the blank with ... Madonna, or Cher, or Kylie Minougue ... and will do so willingly. No wonder Joni's gotten cranky! Now before you call in the napalm, I will say that the film was obviously an homage ... lovingly executed and produced. But like any attempt to encapsulate as rich and diverse a career as Joni's ... it falls down on several counts. And now I believe I shall duck and cover! ;-) Don Rowe ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 09:27:23 EDT From: Gertus@aol.com Subject: Stryngs (NJC) Having met and heard Chris, Martin and Strings at various JMDL inspired adventures and listened to clips on the Stryngs web-site, it was no great surprise to me that their album which dropped through my letterbox about a week ago would be of an exceptional high quality. However, it occurs to me that most of you guys across the pond don't know anything about these people. Some of you will have met Chris at Jonifest and will appreciate his cool bass playing but that may be about it. Well I can't overstate how talented they all are. Indeed, it's positively unfair that Strings should have such an XS of talent. She recently qualified as a doctor and is working as a house officer in a London Hospital at present while at the same time writing the beautiful lyrics which she and Martin have set to music, singing and recording them for this album. 12 lovely songs, including the tear- jerking "Frank's Song" and my current favourites, "Convince" and "Handful of Pills" all impressively packaged with a booklet of lyrics and collage of pictures depicting band members in various states of alertness! So, in summary, if you are wondering whether you should contact Ashara and order a copy of Stryngs album,"The Thrill of Maintaining Momentum", it's definitely worth the money. Take care, Jacky ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 09:44:03 EDT From: SoulQuest7@aol.com Subject: re: Joni on American Masters I disagree with Don Rowe. The show was weighted quite fairly. You can't examine ALL albums in an artists 30 year career in a 90 minute documentary, it's just not possible. Don complains that so much time is spent on the early popular albums, then complains that a lot of time was spent focusing on her most obscure album, Mingus. That's contradictory. I think that is an absolutely normal pattern for a documentary on an artist-- why they were popular, why they lost popularity, what direction that went after that, etc. At least the filmmaker doesn't focus obsessively on the criticism of Mingus. On the contrary, she focuses on Joni's artistic courage to follow her instincts in spite of commercial concerns. I think that shows the film is made by a true fan, not just your average dumb rock journalist. =-- om===- Nick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 09:45:22 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: was...Joni on AM, now...message for Joni... Completion In a message dated 4/12/03 9:24:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dgrowe227@yahoo.com writes: > Now before you call in the napalm, I will say that the > film was obviously an homage ... lovingly executed and > produced. But like any attempt to encapsulate as rich > and diverse a career as Joni's ... it falls down on > several counts. > > And now I believe I shall duck and cover! ;-) > > no need to duck Don....we are just starving for anything Joni related...so whatever we get...is better than nothing...... and what I said about Joni's work being completed....I take it back.... I cast the coins of my I-Ching on this matter and here's what it said basically.... hexagram 63 Completion the course of your life has been fulfilled she must not STOP...do not look back Joni, sure you've had success...now you look back in hypnotic rapture....enjoy your moment of peace & perfection now...without regret and without looking back...Do not value the past over the difficult future or you may find yourself as brittle and immobile as Lot's wife. You must continue to move in your Tao or disaster will result. We need to hear from you Joni the world is changing...and YOU are part of it I hear & love u Joni rosie In the morning there are lovers in the street They look so high You brush against a stranger And you both apologize ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 09:53:44 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni on American Masters ... In a message dated 4/12/2003 9:24:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dgrowe227@yahoo.com writes: > And now I believe I shall duck and cover! ;-) > It may have had its flaws, Don, but it wasn't as bad as all that. As for the talking heads, they were all longtime Joni devotees and not superficial fill-ins...maybe I missed something, if you could be more specific. But you're right...the HOSL/Hejira/DJRD phase (possibly her most creative time) was sorely overlooked. As for the "10 years she took off" between WTRF & NRH, maybe that's just wishful thinking on Joni's part! :~) My turn to duck & cover...actually I'm going for a run on this beautiful SC day! Bob NP: Mingus Big Band, "Tonight At Noon" (picked this up after being so impressed with their appearance at W2W) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 10:11:14 EDT From: SoulQuest7@aol.com Subject: Re: Ginsberg, relevant Joni content at the end Interesting debaste on sex and age-of-consent laws, but not very Joni-ish. Age of consent laws have always fluctuated throughout history from culture to culture, and vary from state to state. At one point in West Virginia it used to be legal for women to marry at age 14, and no one thought that was bizarre in certain segments of the population. Remember the "scandal" that erupted with Jerry Lee Lewis married his thirteen year old cousin before he divorced his last wife? Think about it-- Jerry was caught off guard by the scandal. Most of our modern views of sex come from our beliefs about education-- it's no mere coincidence that the typical age of consent, 18, is after high school. Yet how many of us violated that law? It a 19 year old has sex with a 17 year old, that could be statutory rape in some states, yet how many of us would consider it rape if it was voluntary? I know older men who have wives and lovers that are young (yet legal age), and the same is true of some gay relationships. Big deal. Grow up. Love happens, and not always in the tidy constraints that some people would like. However, I think there is a logical reason for age of consent laws and support them, but I think 18 is bit ridiculous considering the experiences of most of the people I know. Maybe 16 would be more realistic? I also think Allen Ginsberg is a pivotal person in the counterculture, although like most articulators of the 60s ethos, he often took things to far!! I don't anything about NAMBLA or it's beliefs, so I can't comment on that. =-- Jai Ma-== Nick In a message dated 4/12/2003 1:22:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, colin@tantra-apso.com writes: > David Marine wrote: > > > Hey list -- > > Ginsberg was an activist, and at the time he joined NAMBLA, the > > Reagan administration was on a witch-hunt. NAMBLA's charter > > specifically states that it is NOT in favor of any illegal sexual > > activity, but rather a discussion of the laws that dictate what sexual > > practices are allowed. > > It wants to change the law to allow sex adults to have sex with > children. I find that abhorrent and cannot udnerstand how an > intelleigent adult would support such a thing. > > > For example, In Hawaii a 14-year-old boy is free to choose his sex > > partners, > > male or female? Even if so, an adult should not be having sex with a 14 > year old(boy or girl). the power diferrential is too great. Even if the > 14 year old is 'willing',it is still abuse. > > > NAMBLA works to address these discrepancies. > > just the name/acronym NAMBLA makes it clear what this is about. > > > No doubt there are evil predators in NAMBLA, but that does not mean > > the group should not be free to have an open discussion of sexuality > > and the laws that govern sexuality. > > it can discuss anything it wants but to pretend it doesn't want to > legalise adults having sex with children, ie adults abusing children, > adults preying on children, is naive. > > > > > > > This advocacy of Ginsberg's is in keeping with his life's work, which > > openly and fearlessly challenged government oppression of free speech > > and consensual sexuality. > > there can be no consent between and adult and a child. despite the fact > peodophiles use this 'defense' all the time.(i.ebut the child consented.) > > > I can tell you now that all of you on this list who consider > > yourselves gay owe a huge debt of gratitude to Ginsberg, > > really? I wonder about the children abused by people he gave support to? > Not saying here he told these people to abuse but he seems to be > arguing(or you do) that he gave support to the idea. > > > > as regards art, art is art regarless of the morals etc of the person who > created it. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 07:21:58 -0700 (PDT) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: weird joni pronunciation. There are a few words the Joni mispronounces that always annoy me... jewels/schools in For Free (as has been discussed here...) clandestine in Don't Interrupt the Sorrow toupe in Shiny Toys I always found these odd and jarring. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 09:46:53 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: Ginsberg, relevant Joni content at the end njc From my perspective I find that the organization NAMBLA encourages these kinds of relationships and I do find that very disturbing. Equally disturbing is the link that the so-called straight folk make automatically between groups such as these and run of the mill homosexuals, usually automatically concluding that we are all one and the same. As for the age and love and sex, I agree that parameters are placed on such matters that can be arbitrary. Throughout history there have been cases where underage, according to todays standards, women or girls, often as young as 13, married older men, some in their 20's, and were married for the rest of their lives. These days, that would be considered child abuse. I made the move into sex at age 15 and sought out sex with an older man. I was the aggressor and finally got what I wanted. Child abuse? Some might say so but the one person that should be the judge of that is me and he didn't abuse me, I abused him, to use those terms for the sake of this discussion, but there was no abuse. I would hate to think that he could be punished for helping me find out some things about myself and showing me that, yes, there were others out there like me. In some ways, I feel gratitude towards him. Touchy subject and that is only my experience. As for me going out and recruiting a young boy. Not gonna happen and I do find the idea rather repulsive. Also, have to give an organization that makes that kind of thing their clear aim the thumbs down. In my mind, they have no positives and should be put out of business permanently. mack ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 08:50:00 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Re: hissing of the summer lawns At 4/12/2003 12:56 AM, ron wrote: >and if it really is about sprinklers im gonna be really, really disppointed. Prepare to be disappointed! If you can believe what Miss Mitchell says, that is... :-) From the 1979 Rolling Stone interview: "The basic theme of the album, which everybody thought was so abstract, was just any summer day in any neighborhood when people turn their sprinklers on all up and down the block. It's just that hiss of suburbia." http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=946 Les... by way of your friendly neighborhood JMDL search engine. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 10:57:34 -0400 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: joni and tori nexus And even when Joni *tries* to give Laura Nyro a complement all she can come up with is (and I am re-writing what is on the back jacket of Michele Kort's biography of Laura Nyro): "Laura Nyro you can lump me in with, because Laura exerted an influence on me. I looked to her and took some direction from her." Come on Joni! You can let go ... say something nice! jaysus murphy! When you compare this statement from Joni about Laura with the others on the jacket of Kort's book ... Rickie Lee Jones, Donna Summer, Rosanne Cash, Mary Travers, Suzanne Vega ... Joni statement seems lack luster. Heather - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Catherine McKay Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 10:37 PM To: patrick leader; cul heath; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: joni and tori nexus --- patrick leader wrote: > it's quite logical to be a joni and a tori fan. and > tori worships joni, > although i'll bet joni would listen to tori and say > 'i did all that > already'. that's joni's well-known blind spot, when > she hears a younger > female musician, she usually only hears the > similarities, and the > differences escape her entirely. This is one thing that does irritate me about Joni. She rarely says anything good about other artists, especially female artists, and most especially younger female artists. She seems to be a bit of a misogynist that way. Likes to think of herself as "one of the boys". She's often quoted saying things like that. i wonder how much of it is taken out of context? She does admire some older female singers, like Billie Holiday. The only female contemporary I can think of that Joni has had anything good to say about is Laura Nyro. As for younger ones, I think she finds Bjork interesting (but that doesn't mean she likes her). Has she ever said anything about Tori Amos? ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 10:56:52 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: hissing of the summer lawns In a message dated 4/12/03 10:52:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ljirvin@jmdl.com writes: > "The basic theme of the album, which everybody thought was so abstract, was > just any summer day in any neighborhood when people turn their sprinklers > on all up and down the block. It's just that hiss of suburbia." > That's what I always imagined anyway.... rosie in nj, not disappointed NP:Joni, NRH.... Slouching Toward Bethlehem In the morning there are lovers in the street They look so high You brush against a stranger And you both apologize ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 10:01:41 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: hissing of the summer lawns heather informed: > "The basic theme of the album, which everybody thought was so abstract, was > just any summer day in any neighborhood when people turn their sprinklers > on all up and down the block. It's just that hiss of suburbia." > I love that, thoroughly. Will enjoy the album more now I do think. mack ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 10:03:29 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: hissing of the summer lawns Sorry Les. Les informed. heheh mack ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 11:10:47 EDT From: Rdalindley@aol.com Subject: Re: Ute and Joni There doesn't seem to be an Utelemper.com. I did a Google for her and came with a bunch of stuff - but no offical site that I could find. Rob - in the the blue tv screen light ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 11:25:31 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Ann Marie McDonald/Hommage reviews I wrote: >At one point, I posted a long article reviewing the whole Hommage, and >that info would be there. Les put it up on the website, but I can't seem >to find it now. Les? Then Les wrote: <http://www.jmdl.com/performances/docs/011019.cfm>> Yep, thanks Les. There ya go, Mags. All your questions answered. Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 08:35:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: nambla njc Well I am in freaking shock in one way and yet totally not surprised at all. This week I wrote off list to some friends here about my disgust with NAMBLA. Well Wally when I saw your post I was pleased to see someone, a gay man, addressing what pretty much goes silent in the gay community and thus accepted. Upon reading your post I can only say - No Wonder! I too had experiences sexually at a young age, but to advocate and say all children should be susceptible to an adults advances and to tie that into the lesbian/gay community's struggle for rights and acceptance is a sham. This is as Colin - the only gay man here to speak up, out and against this sick organization, nothing more than a groups of pedophiles searching for the right to pedal their deviations without repercussion! What is gay men's problem in general for NOT speaking out about this organization. What is your fear to be against rather than what I view as the greater fear - our community's acceptance of it. And thus our alienation from accepptance in general. What a price to pay!? BUt let me "TRY" to shame and embarrass you further. Speaking to the straight community, let me give you some background here. When I first came out. I would pick up the lesbian/gay papers and not only was this organization acceted, but most papers ran regular columns with prominent writers and men of the community! Yes it was considered an accepted and viable and a group we should be advocating. Well as disco kept me out of the gay life a few years longer, this almost made me go back in! What next ... please consider. A group of straight men _ let's call them "Lolitas United" advocating sex and the right to it with your daughter or your sons. Or what if some lesbians started a group "ODDYD" (old dykes digging your daughter). Sounds funny absurd and sick - huh? BUt when this group faded away for a time doors opened up for my community - hmm wonder if there was any coorelation - ya think? Imagine your neighborhood having a pedophile chapter meeting in your church basement. But our community at the time late 70's early 80's was at a turning point. When that group went away , clearly there was some aversion to it, things changed rapidly. This is not to say we are completely liberated as a community - who ever is? But I believe this to have been a major stumbling block to our marchin forward. My sadness comes as they seem now to be creeping back into our lives or out of the closet again. And my sputtering and stuttering at the apathy that continues amongst my gay brothers ASTOUNDS ME! The same segment of our community who now is adopting or having children raising lttle lives and we want this to go hand in hand with THAT! Come on Wally brilliant people like you and I may have the chutzpah to surpass some of the baggage that comes with having been participants in certain activities as young children but to say to open the door and let it them all in or out is pure idiocy. Why can't a gay man publicly speak out against this issue and gain some integrity and respect still baffles me. Is it soo uncool to be against this? Would it hurt yor sexlife if your partners knew this about you? I am at a loss as to why we as a community choose apathy and allow this black mark on our community rule us and thus keep us back from our goal of acceptance and eaquality. Because it does! It is fuel for the fires against us. I think most of you know I am surely no prude. I don't even say that there are exceptions Wally, where this has occurred. But to have an organized group and plead for and fight for under the cloak of gay rights is hurtful to all of us who must suffer for this DISEASE! I know I am all over the place in this rebuttal of this issue but forgive me as I am livid! When this issue disappeared from our agenda we as a community moved forward. This is not to say that we take everything off the table that the straight or mainstream community does not jive with. I am a huge supporter of the Leather/BDSM community's struggle for acceptance - but then that IS between consenting adults and yet they are continuously berated in the community. BUT THIS is WRONG! Again there have been instances where this may be okay, MAJOR exceptions, but please don't expect me to believe they are any more than that and ask me to promote basically a pedophiles agenda! And I am not meaning to brow beat my gay brothers but please - enlighten me ... why the virtual silence. And of course Colin I welcome your courage to say what you have said. But really should I have to point that out and why in the community at large and here have we gone silent? SILENCE = DEATH and in this case the death of our fight for equality and rights - give it up for the sake of all of us and be real men and take the stand publicly. AND get some professional help! I love my gay brothers, but this is a bone of contentionwith me and I really can't conceive this issue any other way. That it exists is one that we aloow it is another. Ready for all the defensiveness you can muster but I wont get into a long battle over this - because there is only one thing I can say no matter what you say - NAMBLA is so Freaking WRONG! Peace, Susan - --- Wally Kairuz wrote: > i really don't know how to compose this post without getting into trouble > with a lot of list members but i'll try. > > i have always been very interested in nambla. i am not familiar with it or > its guiding principles. i know that the ilga didn't accept nambla as a > member organization for a long time (i don't know whether this situation has > changed) and that its existence has caused a lot of controversy in the gay > political arena. > > my main question is whether it is possible that kids of say 12 or 13 could > be ready and willing to have sex with older men and that in these situations > intimacy may not constitute sexual abuse or child molesting. in my > experience, i was very much in love with an older man and ready for intimacy > when i was 11. if i had had sex with him, would that invariably have hurt my > psyche or development? what are the bases on which the age of consent is > determined? i assure you all that these questions are made honestly and > respectfully. > wally Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 12:03:24 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Ute and Joni THE BOTTOM LINE NYC http://www.bottomlinecabaret.com/ SAT APR 19 UTE LEMPER E-mail Reservations are being accepted for this performance One Show Only - Doors Open 6PM for 8PM Show All Seats $30.00 Any JMDLers up for this? Lemme know rosie in nj NP: DJRD In the morning there are lovers in the street They look so high You brush against a stranger And you both apologize ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 11:26:13 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: nambla njc Susan wrote: This is as Colin - the only gay man here to speak up - -No, I am homosexual and just posted I thought this group should be put out of business... > > What is gay men's problem in general for NOT speaking out about this organization. - -Putting this on the porch of gay men is exactly what society does in general. This is no more a gay man issue than an issue for anyone else. What is your > fear to be against rather than what I view as the greater fear - our community's acceptance of it. > And thus our alienation from accepptance in general. - -Exactly and yet you have done the very same thing in this post. > And my sputtering and stuttering at the apathy that continues amongst my gay brothers ASTOUNDS ME! - -I don't know your gay brothers but the gay men here on the JMDL do not advocate NAMBLA because they don't choose to discuss their feelings on the matter on the JMDL. Is it soo uncool to be against this? - -I haven't read one post here advocating NAMBLA. I do believe someone (forgive me whomever that was but I don't remember) was defending someone's association with the organization. Hardly a defense of the organization itself. Would it hurt yor sexlife if your > partners knew this about you? - -I have never met a homosexual that was pro-NAMBLA. I am at a loss as to why we as a community choose apathy and allow > this black mark on our community rule us and thus keep us back from our goal of acceptance and > eaquality. Because it does! It is fuel for the fires against us. > - -We, as a community, or me as a homosexual are no more responsible for NAMBLA than the general community and your entire post infers that not only are we, but gay men are specifically. > And I am not meaning to brow beat my gay brothers but please - enlighten me ... why the virtual > silence. - -Again, you put the entire responsibility of dismantling NAMBLA on gay men. A small percentage of perverted men that want to abuse young boys does not make it a gay man issue. It is a societal issue at large and most pedophiles are heterosexual and though I have no info on those of that group, and have no intention of researching them, I would imagine that most would abuse little girls too, if given the chance. > I love my gay brothers - -Again, I don't know your gay brothers but you can work against this group as effectively as anyone else and I take umbrage to your comments here as if we gay men on the JMDL are advocating sex with children or are the only ones responsible for stopping this disgusting organization, effectively stereotyping us as well, if not better, than the straight community. Ready for all the defensiveness you can muster but I wont get into a long battle over this - > because there is only one thing I can say no matter what you say - NAMBLA is so Freaking WRONG! - -I repeat, I think NAMBLA is very wrong and should be abolished. As for defensiveness, the only one that should be defensive on this issue, I suppose, are those involved with NAMBLA, and I don't believe that anyone here is. If they are, I don't want to know about it. mack ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 12:29:47 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni on American Masters ... While the show might have short-changed the mid-and-late 70s output, there was at least an explicit acknowledgement of Jaco Pastorius's impact on JM (the flip side of that: JM's openness to Jaco and his music.) DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 13:12:25 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: nambla njc Susan writes: << And I am not meaning to brow beat my gay brothers but please - enlighten me ... why the virtual silence. >> 1) I never assume that my silence -- or anyone's silence -- on any issue in this forum indicates a pro stance on the issue at hand 2) I have already been criticized this week for contributing to gay threads 3) I did choose to answer -- and praise -- Colin off list 4) The thread originally seemed to be about Alan Ginsburg and his affiliation with NAMBLA, and I really know nothing about that issue 5) I happen to think that murder is wrong, but as in the case of my dislike of NAMBLA, that also seems self-evident and no reason to use bandwidth 6) I abhor everything NAMBLA stands for, but I defend their right to exist, along with nutty American Nazi party members and other disturbed racists, wacko religious cults, and other fringe groups (Crack down on them and can the JMDL be far behind?) Don't worry, Susan, I still love you. But you did ask to be "enlightened" about my silence. --Bob PS: I spellchecked this post and for "wacko" the spellchecker offered "Waco!" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 10:17:52 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: richie havens njc > NPIMH - Richie Havens - Freedom > >>A wonderful song.<< yes, & a wonderful man! decades after seeing him at woodstock he played at a small festival near my house & i went to see him...stood in line for the meet & greet (rarely do i have patience for that anymore) & he was so gracious to all who wanted to say hi, in fact stating that he felt it was part of the deal of being a performer...he's my hero from waaaaaay back so i had to tell him...i bought his freedom shirt & he signed it 'friends forever'...lol...i need to hang it on my wall...btw, he sings & plays as well as he ever has!!! what a lovely man... www.katebennett.com "Lyrically, it's a work of art overall. Brilliant writing, absolutely." Indie-music.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 12:44:50 -0500 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: Re: joni and tori nexus Chaka Khan does backup on DJRD - can't remember I think it is on Dreamland. peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 11:04:31 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: nambla njc Here's the deal: Colin is right, children are CHILDREN. As adolescence begins and hormones start to rage, children may find themselves physically ready for sex. Few, if any, are emotionally ready, however. As adults -- straight, bi, gay, whatever -- it is our responsibility to help kids understand that, and to get through it and past it, until they really ARE emotionally ready. Regardless that pedophilia isn't a "gay" issue, many people think it is. Because lesbians, gays, bisexual and transgendered persons struggle enough to be accepted as normal, we MUST come out and declare - - - in no uncertain terms -- that NAMBLA and similar organizations are NOT ACCEPTABLE. Period. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 11:34:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: joni and tori nexus - --- "J.David Sapp" wrote: > Chaka Khan does backup on DJRD - can't remember I > think it is on Dreamland. Yes, and a teeny bit on The Tenth World. That was a great union. If it had been previously unnoticed before, the cross-over appeal of Joni's music was really solidified with DJRD, especially its acceptance by black musicians, like Charles Mingus. Having a woman known for disco/funk hits (I'm Every Woman) singing on an album as complex as DJRD really helped the mainstream see Joni's enormous appeal and diversity - that in combination with her unrelenting musical experimentation on that record. Folk singer? Not any more. - -Andrew Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #234 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)