From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #178 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, March 15 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 178 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Chinese Cafe [Mags N Brei ] Joni mention in G&M ["michael o'malley" ] Dark Cafe Days/Chicago Style [Susan Guzzi ] RE: Was "Talk to me"; now, JERKS!! (NCJ) ["Mary E. Pitassi" ] Back to T'log [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Please share with ... NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Chinese Cafe [colin ] Re: "Talk to me" now way njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: "Talk to me" NJC [dsk ] Re: Dark Cafe Days/Chicago Style [Catherine McKay ] RE: Please share with ... NJC ["Heather" ] RE: Please share with ... NJC ["Heather" ] Re: "Talk to me" NJC [Catherine McKay ] March 17 NJC [dsk ] RE: Please share with ... NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: Joni mention in G&M [Catherine McKay ] Re: Was "Talk to me"; now, JERKS!! (NCJ) [colin ] Re: Please share with ... NJC [colin ] Re: "Talk to me" NJC [dsk ] Re: "Talk to me" now way njc [colin ] percussionist in Joni's performances ["Rache A" ] Re: 'Talk To Me' ["Stephen Toogood" ] Re: "Talk to me" NJC [colin ] Re: Was "Talk to me"; now, JERKS!! (NJC) ["Mary E. Pitassi" ] Video's [emil thompson ] Re: Was "Talk to me"; now, JERKS!! (NJC) [Catherine McKay ] Re: Was "Talk to me"; now, JERKS!! (NJC) [colin ] Re: Please share with ... NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: Please share with ... NJC [colin ] Channel 5 rhymes with jive ["James Leahy" ] Re: Please share with ... NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: Channel 5 rhymes with jive [Catherine McKay ] Re: Back to T'log [Little Bird ] Laurel Canyon: the movie ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Chinese Cafe ["Mark or Travis" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 14:32:16 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: Chinese Cafe Colin, first of all, it's wonderful to see you back .. I hope you are feeling okay. secondly... Chinese Cafe does indeed make direct references to Joni's daughter... "my child's a stranger I bore her but I could not raise her . " I can certainly see why you would think that the lines you mention are a reference to Joni's daughter as well. sends shivers up my spine to hear her sing... "I need your love, God speed your love to me" **** ( that drawn out vowel sound gets to me every time). Ive always loved this song so much especially with unchained melody woven through Joni's words . mags xo colin wrote: I have always thought the song mixed with Unchained Melody(a beautiful song) was odd. Today I was listening to it on Travelogue. It suddenly occurred to me that she is singing the words of Unchained Melody to her daughter. I hunger for your touch-i pray god brings your love to me(or something like that). It makes sense to me anyway. You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 17:39:40 -0500 From: "michael o'malley" Subject: Joni mention in G&M There was a sweet little Joni moment in the Saturday Globe & Mail again. Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon is turning 30. This album remained on the Bilboard albums chart for 741 weeks ( ! ) beginning March 1973. Other Floyd trivia tidbits: Great Gig in the Sky was voted `Best Song to Make Love To` by Australian radio listeners in 1990 (ya gotta love 'em!) and Clare Tory's classic vocals on that track earned her the princely sum of 30 pounds for her contribution. Now for the Joni content: drummer Nick Mason told an interviewer that he was frankly stumped by the record's enduring popularity, adding `` there's no way this record is stunningly better than 20 or 40 of the great albums of the last two decades. Joni Mitchell's Court and Spark was more to Mason's preference.`` Michael in Quebec ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 15:21:22 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Dark Cafe Days/Chicago Style I offer up this challenge to any of you who have never attended a Jonifest, minifest, Paz fest or simply met up with any other list members ... JUST DO IT! I dare you not to have a great time and not feel a part of some secret society! Last night, I had the pleasure of meeting up with Kerry, Steve Polifka, Dennis and Jack! Along with these listers Dennis brought two friends AND my "older" cousin Kathy (snicker). Steve brought his sweet partner Jeff along for the adventure as well. While Dennis and his entourage met up elsewhere, Kerry, Steve, Jeff and I met at "The Closet." We began indulging in libations and were treated to a performance by my friend & bartender Lee. She performed her fan dance to the Madonna video, Vogue, flawlessly and to a huge round of applause, as per usual. We then mosied over to Davenports. We were greeted at the door by Dennis, who recognized us immediately. We then attemped to make our way to our seats. I was surprisingly greeted by both bartenders, who seemed to know me. Hmmm do I party too much? One was an old friend, Sue Who- as she is known. The other also mentioned her excitement at seeing my name on their reservation list for the evening - WHO WAS SHE!?? (shrug) Happily as we entered the cabaret room I saw my "older" cousin Kathy, sitting there. I am enjoying saying this as she is only 3 years older, but complained all night about my making that reference to our relationship. And since she is now threatening to join the list and attend a Jonifest, I hope she someday finds this post in the archives. Soon after Jack Merkel joined the table. The two owner of Davenports then came to the table, friends of Dennis and travel compaions of his on his trip to China. I also was surrised they remembered me from the old days. They were there to see the show for the first time themselves. The show began with the three performers stepping on to the stage and opening their set with "Raised On Robbery." Immediately the harmonies stood out for me and the tone of the night was set. This was not to be an imitation of Joni, but purely done in a cabaret, nightclubby short of flavor. As there has been some talk here latley of Joni's songs becoming standards , I found this style to the most advantageous to that accomplishment or goal. Both of the women, Anne & Allison :-P - had what I would say had medium to deeper voice ranges, definitely not meant to be mimicking "the chirp." Rob's voice may have been the highest but was not really meant to challenge the high notes, nor did he try. Next they did, again with great harmonies, "You Turn Me On ..." There was an initial fear they would stick to the really well known Joan and steer clear of some of her true treasures. With Allison :-P having the first solo, I was quickly corrected. She did a very nice rendition of "Barangrill." Anne who I think was the most stylistic and more the actress came up with, "The Last Time I Saw Richard" - maybe her weakest song of the night for me, although she was fab on several others. And Rob's first solo was "Help Me." Backed up by some sweet harmony, provided by Anne & Allison:-P. YES I am going to make that sign every time I mention her! The rest of the set went like this: Allison/Two Grey Rooms Anne/ Sunny Sunday Rob/In France They Kiss On Main Street During the evening Rob had some flubs of lines and thankfully Steve was in the audience to prompt him! Next came what may have been the best song of the evening, when Anne did her version of "The Gallery." You had to love this, even for those of you who may not love this song, she just really nailed it and beautifully. Then Allison :-P did the same with, the soon to be a standard, "Blue Motel Room." And Rob's best was next with "See You Sometime." So it was bang bang bang, with each giving their best and you had to be way into it now! They interjected some Joni facts or myths, depending on what your knowledge of Joan truly is. Rob in fact picked up and played the ukelele, mentioning this was Joni's first instrument. And later, there was a reference to Janis, the muppet, being created with Joni in mind. If anyone can confirm or disspell this rumor please let us know. And the set contuinued: All/Solid Love Rob/A Case of You All/Circle Game And the big finish was an acappella version, with finger snapping of "Big Yellow Taxi." Once again with super harmonies. The nearly full room was mostly on their appreciative feet, as they exited the stage. The name of this group is Foiled Again. They do have plans for a follow-up Joni show. And they are considering a special "Blue" show as we found out later. We then moved into the main bar to socialize and discuss the show. Here we mingled for the rest of the evening with the three performers and each other. I did finally realize that Renee, the other bartender was an acquaintance from my past - so whew, talk about saving face! And she really just exchanged numbers with me, to see about playing softball for me this summer. Cousin Kathy and I got to enjoy some quality time with each other for the first time in several years, so that was very cool. This all lasted until I had to drag Kerry & Jack out of the bar as we were in fact the last patrons. We all talked and got to know a little about each other, speaking of the listers. Again, as I have said sooo many times - I have found my people! Now as luck would have it I managed to be standing right next to Allison - ok, I'll stop that face thing. We talked mostly to her and Rob, who was fast becoming our bud. They were thrilled to hear about the list AND VERY excited about Jonifest. So they too, have ideas now about joining and going! We sang bits of songs and laughed a lot. Then, and I can never tell when it's going to come over me, Ethel entered! We all took turns singing different lines from Joni songs as Ethel, including Allison, Rob, Kerry, Jack & Steve. On second thought maybe we were channellng Smurph channelling Ethel? And you know there may have been more but I have trouble remembering things when I am channelling. So I would say Jonifest Chicago style was a great success and a splendid time was had by all. So happy to have been a part of this great group and encourage others to get together anywhere anytime - all in the name of Joni! Kerry is now on a train on her way back to Milwaukee and I am sure will have her own report to file, as well as the others. Love to my old friends and new, I wouldn't have missed this for the world! Peace, Susan Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 17:22:14 -0600 From: "Mary E. Pitassi" Subject: RE: Was "Talk to me"; now, JERKS!! (NCJ) Catherine wrote, and Colin responded: ">I'm like that too. I hate it. I always pick bastards. >What's my friggin' problem? > The problem does lie with you. Not that you only imagine them to be bastards but that you are attracted to and accept treatment/behaviour that is detrimental to you but that you are used to. Once we have learned to value our own selves, we cease to be attracted to those that don't value us. [. . . ]" OK. Colin, I get this; I really do. But doesn't at least some of the problem lie with the bastards for being. . .well, JERKS?? Obviously, we're responsible for a lot of the negativity we let into our lives. And yes, we can only control our own behavior, not anyone else's. But I can't help but think that some people put up with abuse because they are fundamentally loving and trusting. They believe, for too long, and against all evidence to the contrary, that the person they care about is basically good and decent, and/or will change. The result is bad, certainly, but is the hope? This line of thought also sometimes reminds me of the trend in some "New Age" thought to emphasize the power of positive thinking to counter life-threatening illnesses. . .with the very damaging flip side that, if the patient doesn't recover quickly or, God forbid, dies, they must not have been "positive" enough. It's his or her own fault. So to close: yes, I (or you) can let it in, or not let it in. But doesn't the ultimate root of the illness/negativity lie elsewhere? Mary P., rambling on on a Saturday afternoon, and wishing she lived in a world where all human beings took responsibility for their own Inner Jerkdom. ;-) After all (more seriously, now), peace begins at home. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 19:17:22 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Dark Cafe Days/Chicago Style In a message dated 3/15/2003 6:22:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, groovchacha@yahoo.com writes: > I offer up this challenge to any of you who have never attended a Jonifest, > minifest, Paz fest or > simply met up with any other list members ... JUST DO IT! I dare you not > to have a great time and > not feel a part of some secret society! > Thanks for your truly WONDERFUL report, Susie Guzzi! And you're dead on, I'm looking forward to my upcoming weekend with JMDL friends old & new. Don't know exactly what all I'm in for, only know it'll be great, and how cool is that? I loved the song selection that the performers did - they really picked some obscure songs from the Joni songbook! Bob NP: Jackson Browne, "Rock Me On The Water", live '73 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 21:18:50 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Please share with ... NJC heather!!!!! what wonderful news! and you'll be on the yale campus so you can track down tippy walker for me and tell her i am madly in love with her! her art gallery is called out of the blue. send me details :-) really really really happy and ready to translate any maya manuscripts for ya ;-) wally ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 19:30:07 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Back to T'log I really joined in again to see what the die-hards all thought, but things have been eerily silent on the subject. 'Cuz our Mama's taught us - "if you can't say something nice about something, don't say anything at all" ;~) OK, not totally true about the lackluster (to me) T'log. Firstly, it's disappointing to me that Joni must consider herself 'used up' to continue to recycle her old material. By doing so, she's just playing into the hands of the biz that says that when a performer hits 6-0 or thereabouts they're good for revues and that's about it. Personally I think Joni is capable of her best work yet, so I wish she would push herself harder than she's doing, working with the same songs, the same players, and adding Mendoza's predictable & mostly tiresome arrangements to some of her best work. On the upside, I LOVE what she does with "Flat Tires", she should have employed Billy Preston's organ-playing more than she does, and I also love her expansion of the audio colors on "Dawntreader". Both of these tracks hint at what a creative expression Travelogue COULD HAVE been, instead of the tedium that it actually is. Of course, lots of folks here love every nanosecond of it, and I couldn't be happier for them. Bob NP: Jackson Browne, "These Days", live '73 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 19:32:50 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Please share with ... NJC In a message dated 3/15/2003 5:17:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, colin@tantra-apso.com writes: > ps aren't you a little old for school? > This of course brings to mind the Dear Abby column where the lady wants to go to nursing school, but is worried that she'll be 50 when she graduates. Abby responded "...and how old will be then if you DON'T go to nursing school?" Anyway, congratulations Heather...very proud of your present & future accomplishments. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 00:48:37 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Chinese Cafe Mags N Brei wrote: > Colin, first of all, it's wonderful to see you back .. I hope you are > feeling okay. > thank you. 19lbs lighter, taken up yoga(which is fantastic) and down to 4-5 fags a day(from 30). the weather here is lovely and dry and has been for many weeks now, so have been getting many more walks with the dogs. > secondly... Chinese Cafe does indeed make direct references to Joni's > daughter... > > "my child's a stranger > > I bore her > > but I could not raise her . " > yes those words are obvious. > > > I can certainly see why you would think that the lines you mention > are a reference to Joni's daughter as well. > > sends shivers up my spine to hear her sing... > > "I need your love, > > God speed your love to me" > It just didn't gel with me before now that the UM words were also to her daugther.... > **** > > ( that drawn out vowel sound gets to me every time). > > Ive always loved this song so much especially with unchained > melody woven through Joni's words . > > mags > > xo > > colin wrote: ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 19:54:42 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: "Talk to me" now way njc --- colin wrote: > People are different, mrena nd women are different. > each deals wiht life > differently, feels differently and expresses life > differently.Quite > often we expect from others that which they cannot > give. We expect them > to be like us when they are not. Just ebcause a man > does not express > his feelings in the way we wuld wnat, does not make > them 'unfeeling'. To tell the truth, I'm usually the one that doesn't talk much. It seems like such a waste of time. My ex used to accuse me of being cold and unfeeling because I didn't emote all over the place like a prima donna (I didn't have to - he took care of that for both of us - meow!) The thing is, he just wouldn't shut up long enough for me to get a word in edgewise. Sometimes I thought I was the man and he was the woman. If I sang "Talk to me", I'd have to change the words. Just a bit. Heh heh heh. A parody is forming itself (nastily) in my mind even as we speak (so to speak). ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 19:59:09 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: "Talk to me" NJC Hi Colin, I'm so glad to see you back. I hope you're feeling better. colin wrote: > > ...people who ttreated me like those who brought me up. thus I > was always unhappy and always being mistreated.Then i wised up. I can relate to all of that. And, rather than get angry at myself whenever I end up saying "damn, I thought I'd learned that already!!", it's also important to realize that "wising up" is much easier said than done. Just when I think I've thoroughly learned the lesson on a particular issue, I encounter the same "thing to be learned" again, usually in a less drastic form, so I guess that's progress. I think of it as being on a spiral journey (rather than a circular one), so I pass by the same issues but with a slightly different viewpoint. > People are different, mrena nd women are different. each deals wiht life > differently, feels differently and expresses life differently.Quite > often we expect from others that which they cannot give. We expect them > to be like us when they are not. Just ebcause a man does not express > his feelings in the way we wuld wnat, does not make them 'unfeeling'. It > just emans they deal differently. True, although if there's a huge gap in the way people are communicating, then it's just not a good relationship "fit" and that needs to be recognized from the start. When I look back, I can always see the clues to how things turned out. I'd rather see and accept those clues from the start, and not do any ignoring of those little truthful whispery insights or do any hoping for change... although there is the "love is blind" effect, so who knows? We all do the best we can. Thinking of "talk to me" also reminds me of a discussion with a woman friend a long time ago. We started by talking about Sam Shepard and her saying she liked him so much because he seemed like the strong silent type. My reaction was first of all who knows what Sam Shepard's "really" like, and secondly that I didn't want anything to do with any strong silent type ever again! We'd just seen one of Shepard's plays, so obviously the guy has a lot to say and why would he be silent? That's just coldness and there's not necessarily anything strong about it. Anyway, we ended up agreeing to disagree about all that. That was even pre-"I hate 'talk to me'" and she and I were both surprised at my reaction to what she was saying. That strong silent stereotype for men has got to be a straitjacket for some of them. I'm glad it's not as popular a stereotype or expectation as it once was. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:01:22 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Dark Cafe Days/Chicago Style --- Susan Guzzi wrote: > > there was a reference to Janis, the muppet, being > created with Joni in mind. If anyone can > confirm or disspell this rumor please let us know. Can't do anything to confirm or deny, but, hey there is a resemblance. I think Joni would like that - Janis is a jazzer. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:08:44 -0500 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: Please share with ... NJC Well ... if a true confession must be revealed ... it WAS the nametags. I attached a copy of all the nametags with everyone's picture morphed with Joni. I can only think they were truly impressed at such wizardry. Either that or I scared them into thinking "if we DON'T accept her, this will happen to us!" Heather - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Ricw1217@aol.com Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 3:45 PM To: "Heather"; "Joni@Smoe. Org" Subject: Re: Please share with ... NJC CONGRATULATIONS HEATHER! i'm so proud of you and happy for you! what wonderful news! i bet it was the "make the jonifest name tags" on your resume that got you in!!! bless you, you little innyleckshuall! love, ric ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:11:43 -0500 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: Please share with ... NJC Thank you Colin. One is never too old for school :-) Though I sometimes feel the need for a bigger brain. Heather - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of colin Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 5:16 PM To: Heather Cc: joni Subject: Re: Please share with ... NJC I am so pleased for you heather. Congratulations. bw colin ps aren't you a little old for school? Heather wrote: >me my joy and excitement! I just received my acceptance letter to attend >Yale. I will be starting the masters program in archaeology and, hopefully, >specializing in archaeometallurgy. This is going to open a whole new life >for me! When I told my daughter she said she was going to get me an Indiana >Jones hat and whip. Gee ... what do I need with another whip? ;~) > >I'm just so excited! I had to share :-) > >Heather ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:14:01 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: "Talk to me" NJC --- dsk wrote: I think of > it as being on a spiral journey (rather than a > circular one), so I pass > by the same issues but with a slightly different > viewpoint. That's a really good way to express it. Most of us don't learn the whole lesson on one take. > Thinking of "talk to me" also reminds me of a > discussion with a woman > friend a long time ago. We started by talking about > Sam Shepard and her > saying she liked him so much because he seemed like > the strong silent > type. My reaction was first of all who knows what > Sam Shepard's "really" > like, and secondly that I didn't want anything to do > with any strong > silent type ever again! We'd just seen one of > Shepard's plays, so > obviously the guy has a lot to say and why would he > be silent? That's > just coldness and there's not necessarily anything > strong about it. Here's where I disagree (in part). Some people can express themselves very well in writing but have difficulty talking about things. A silent person isn't necessarily cold (nor is s/he necessarily strong for that matter.) If they're silent, but they write a good love letter, they're probably worth hanging on to. ;} ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:17:42 -0500 From: dsk Subject: March 17 NJC Beannachtam na Fiile Padraig oraibh! Happy St. Patrick's Day to you all! As you slide down the banisters of life may the splinters never point the wrong way. Take care everyone, Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:16:17 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: RE: Please share with ... NJC --- Heather wrote: > Thank you Colin. > > One is never too old for school :-) > Though I sometimes feel the need for a bigger brain. Your brain is big enough. You just have to remember where you left all those guldurn unused grey cells! ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:19:58 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Joni mention in G&M --- michael o'malley wrote: > Now for the Joni content: drummer Nick > Mason told an interviewer > that he was frankly stumped by the record's [Dark Side of the Moon's] enduring > popularity, adding `` > there's no way this record is stunningly better than > 20 or 40 of the great > albums of the last two decades. Joni Mitchell's > Court and Spark was more to > Mason's preference.`` The man has taste. As for me, I love both of them, so there you go. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 01:22:00 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Was "Talk to me"; now, JERKS!! (NCJ) Mary E. Pitassi wrote: > Catherine wrote, and Colin responded: > > ">I'm like that too. I hate it. I always pick bastards. > >What's my friggin' problem? > > > The problem does lie with you. Not that you only imagine them to be > bastards but that you are attracted to and accept treatment/behaviour > that is detrimental to you but that you are used to. Once we have > learned to value our own selves, we cease to be attracted to those that > don't value us. [. . . ]" > > OK. Colin, I get this; I really do. But doesn't at least some of > the problem lie with the bastards for being. . .well, JERKS?? No where was i suggesting that we are responsible for someone else's behaviour. not at all. We are however responsible for our own and what we allow.IF we allow others to treat us badly, then yes we are responsible for that. We have given our permission. A person with a good sense of self just does not allow themselves to be treated badly consistently. We cannot do much about random bad treatment from strangers but we can do much about bad treatment from those we have in our lives. > > But I can't help but think that some people put up with abuse > because they are fundamentally loving and trusting. Wouldn't it be nice if that were so? There are many people who are fundamentally loving and trusting who still value themselves and they don't take shit from people. > They believe, for too long, and against all evidence to the > contrary, that the person they care about is basically good and > decent, and/or will change. The result is bad, certainly, but is the > hope? yes because it is at their expense. besides, if someone is truly 'believing' for too long and despite the evidence, then love and trust is not the driving force. it is more likely fear, guilt, shame, a refusal to take responsibility, a refusal to see things as they are instead of how they want them to be. Also, one can believe on one level that one is being trusting and kind and loving and all those good things when actually what one is driven by is fear and guilt and shame. But they don't sound so good do they? > > This line of thought also sometimes reminds me of the trend in some > "New Age" thought to emphasize the power of positive thinking to > counter life-threatening illnesses. . .with the very damaging flip > side that, if the patient doesn't recover quickly or, God forbid, > dies, they must not have been "positive" enough. It's his or her own > fault. i find that appalling and have said so here before now. It is just another way of avoiding what we don't want to acknowledge, a way of kidding ourselves that we have power when we have none, another form of whistling in the dark. However, it is really not the same thing that we are talking about. > > But doesn't the ultimate root of the illness/negativity lie elsewhere? no. it lies with all concerned. Personal responsibility means us too! if we consistently allow, give someone permission to, behave badly, then yes, we are responsible too. Does our withdrawing our permission change that person? No. not if it is just us. They just latch onto someone else. However, if EVERYONE refused to accept the unacceptable, where would that leave the person acting out? No where to go, alone, isolated, fearful, and no audience. Their acting out would cease. So, as unpalatable as it feels, we are more responsible than we like to think. The fact that we are good people acting out of love and trust whilst they are the bad people, is really just a lie we tell ourselves to avoid having to see ourselves. This does NOT mean that vile behaviour and treatment is excusable or caused exclusively by us. As you know, I was in an abusive situation all thru my childhood. i was not responsible for that,i couldn't be, I was a child. HOWEVER, I am responsible for the fact I allowed it go on into adulthood. I am responsible for putting myself in harms way consistently. Did I do it out of love and trust? I thought so. But I came to realise I did it out of shame and guilt and fear(and in that particular situation because of one of the Commandments) and a refusal to accept my powerlessness and a fundamental lack of respect for myself. Not only that, I went on to repeat this same scenario with other people till, after a lot more anguish, i finally got it! People treated me badly because I let them. simple. I don't have people like that in my life anymore. i'd rather be lonely, be considered odd, be an outcast, be a loner, than to have my self abused again. I will not allow my compassion for someone, let me be abused again.I will not let my desire to be accepted and liked allow me to be abused again. None of it was easy to learn, let alone understand, and the truth of it is not what i wanted to hear. But the rightness of this understanding has born good healthy fruit, so it holds validity for me. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 01:23:54 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Please share with ... NJC > Abby >responded "...and how old will be then if you DON'T go to nursing school?" > >A > maybe abbey lacked a soh too. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:28:32 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: "Talk to me" NJC Catherine McKay wrote: > > Here's where I disagree (in part). Some people can > express themselves very well in writing but have > difficulty talking about things. A silent person isn't > necessarily cold (nor is s/he necessarily strong for > that matter.) If they're silent, but they write a good > love letter, they're probably worth hanging on to. ;} Oh, yes, that's true. Then maybe they could read their letter out loud :-) And there are people like Jackson Pollock, who couldn't express himself at all verbally and put most of his emotion into his paintings. I still don't like the silent type, but then maybe that's because there's more chance that information will be conveyed passively and I'd rather find out about things in a more straightforward way, which isn't always possible for anyone, depending on the situation. So, no one said love, or just plain old communicating, would ever be easy... Think of all the songs that would never have been written if it was. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 01:27:14 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: "Talk to me" now way njc >To tell the truth, I'm usually the one that doesn't >talk much. It seems like such a waste of time. My ex >used to accuse me of being cold and unfeeling because >I didn't emote all over the place like a prima donna > now imagine how a man would be slammed down for saying such a thing about women and their expression of feelings? Expressing of emotions and not doing so are different, not one good the other bad. >(I did The thing is, he just wouldn't shut up >long enough for me to get a word in edgewise. > > self centred? sounds it. a very difficutl situation to get by unless radical steps are taken by the self centred one to address ytha csue and by the perosn putting up with it addressing their reason too. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:35:55 -0500 From: "Rache A" Subject: percussionist in Joni's performances I read a little thing about a percussionist Vito Rezza who said he has performed with Joni. I've never come across his name before, and I'm wondering if anyone can help me out there. Rachel - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 01:38:30 -0000 From: "Stephen Toogood" Subject: Re: 'Talk To Me' 'Talk To Me' is to me one of the worst Joni songs! The lyrics sounds corny and the music sounds kind of samey. I do however know people who like it so the song is not wasted. Steve T ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 01:42:51 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: "Talk to me" NJC > That's >just coldness and there's not necessarily anything strong about it. > > forgive me for saying so, but the above is a stereo type! silent does not eqaul coldness. >That strong silent stereotype for men has got to be a straitjacket for >some of them. > it si a stereotype. It is natural for many men to be this way. It is juts a different way of dealing with things. It is really imortpant to not assume that ebcause peoople react differently that there is soemthing wrong with them. OR that there is a communication problem. Actually there often is, but it is not on the side ywe would tend to think! It is us more demonstraive, 'emotional' types that are fialing to undrstadn the communication! What we tend to mean when we say there are communication problems is that the other person is not communcating the way we want them too! I am the volatile type, my emtions are obvious, uusally. john is the silent type. John deals with shit in a toatlly different way. Me, i ahev to talk it over, and over, and over, and over , and over till I am done. He says what he has to say and puts it way and that is it. John is economical with his words. He thinks silenty. i think aloud. There have been comminaction problems and we learned from them. A classic example: watching tv, both on couch, I snuggle up for a hug and he says 'i'm watching this' and I get the hump. bastard!!! he rejected me. Why can't he watch tv and hug at the saem time? WHY? Because he thought I wanted sex! It took a long time before that one was understood. He would be baffled as to why I got the hump and I would be hurt because I misunderstood what he meant because he misunderstood what I wanted.(actually a common problem with men-thinking affection and closeness equals sex). On the other hand tho, it is true that men tend to not be so demonstraive physically. Men have been taught not to be form the eyar dot. They ahev beent aught to hide their feelings, to not show affection, because it is all girly stuff and well men just don't do that do they? And guess who has the greater part in their upbringing... which brings be back to us all being responbsible...... it is acceptabke now for men totake the rap to be balmed for the ills of the world and that women and are the poort hard done bys. it is all bullshit. we are all hard done by and we are all done by ourselves mostly. bw colin > I'm glad it's not as popular a stereotype or expectation >as it once was. > >Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 19:41:57 -0600 From: "Mary E. Pitassi" Subject: Re: Was "Talk to me"; now, JERKS!! (NJC) Colin wrote, among other things, in response to me: " But doesn't the ultimate root of the illness/negativity lie elsewhere? no. it lies with all concerned. Personal responsibility means us too!" Colin, I agree wholeheartedly with your last sentence. And I agree with much of what you wrote. My point is that sometimes the "jerks" get let off the hook a little too easily. I'd just like to see people take a little more responsibility, in general, for the effects of their behavior on others. It's on my wish list--just as my hope that this war can be averted is on my wish list. That doesn't mean I expect it to happen anytime soon. Mary P. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 01:44:28 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Please share with ... NJC Heather wrote: >Thank you Colin. > >One is never too old for school :-) >Though I sometimes feel the need for a bigger brain. > >Heather > > > I am sure your brain is big enough. we'd dead if too old to learn.... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 01:49:02 +0000 From: emil thompson Subject: Video's Hello All, I've never been on one of these lists before feels kinda strange talking to lotsa peeps at once. Massive Joni fan since I was a teenager (wanted to marry her an all that) anyway to cut to the chase I have a couple of neat Joni vids and an audio interview available. To check it out go here http://www.lessismore.co.uk all best to you all from the UK. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:49:41 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Was "Talk to me"; now, JERKS!! (NJC) --- "Mary E. Pitassi" wrote: > sometimes the > "jerks" get let off the > hook a little too easily. I'd just like to see > people take a little more > responsibility, in general, for the effects of their > behavior on others. I believe some people will never take responsibility for this because they're simply incapable of recognizing it. Maybe the "gee, what a jerk I am!" gene is missing in their makeup. Sometimes you have to let them off the hook to save your own sanity - but when you do, just make sure you fling them far enough out to sea that they'll never find their way back to you. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 01:50:51 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Was "Talk to me"; now, JERKS!! (NJC) Mary E. Pitassi wrote: > My point is that sometimes the "jerks" get let off the >hook a little too easily. > it certainly seems that way. I am sometimes eaten up by this thought-that people get away wtih stuff. In then end tho there is not much i can do. i can either think, well, they have got away with it, or believe that no they haven;t and what goes around comes around. Someone I know who brings out the worst in me, like murderous thoughts!, I know suffers because of their own self,and not just a bit either. that helps me deal with my feelings about them. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 01:52:16 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Was "Talk to me"; now, JERKS!! (NJC) Catherine McKay wrote: >> >> > >I believe some people will never take responsibility >for this because they're simply incapable of >recognizing it. > it is known as naricssism. Loads of them about. Look at our world. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 21:02:17 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Please share with ... NJC --- colin wrote: > > Abby > >responded "...and how old will be then if you DON'T > go to nursing school?" > > > >A > > > maybe abbey lacked a soh too. OK, I give up. What is a soh? Is it like "soul" with a speech impediment? ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 02:05:47 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Please share with ... NJC sense of humour(soh) Catherine McKay wrote: > --- colin wrote: > > Abby > > >>>responded "...and how old will be then if you DON'T >>> >>> >>go to nursing school?" >> >> >>>A >>> >>> >>> >>maybe abbey lacked a soh too. >> >> > >OK, I give up. What is a soh? Is it like "soul" with a >speech impediment? > > >===== >Catherine >Toronto > >______________________________________________________________________ >Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 21:10:07 -0500 From: "James Leahy" Subject: Channel 5 rhymes with jive I figured the only reason Joni chose "Channel Five" was because it rhymed with the previous line: "given some wisdom and a lot of jive." In fact, a lot of Joni's word choices are based on rhythm, cadence, and rhyme. Perhaps we could start a thread on some of Joni's lyrics that don't really mean anything but were chosen to fit a rhyme scheme. How about 'pachyderm' and 'germs'? My hunch about 'ghost of my old ideals' was that it was the Celebration at Big Sur film, especially the scene where she's talking about the whale that was beached up the day before. Trippy! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 21:14:20 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Please share with ... NJC --- colin wrote: > sense of humour(soh) > I just figured it was another case of Colinese. I kept trying to move the letters around to make a word out of it. Between your lousy typing and my intense dislike of acronyms (IDoA) I never would have figured it out. LOL ha ha ha. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 21:24:54 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Channel 5 rhymes with jive --- James Leahy wrote: > I figured the only reason Joni chose "Channel Five" > was because it rhymed > with the previous line: "given some wisdom and a lot > of jive." Oh, c'mon. don't be such a poop! She could've changed "jive" to rhyme with another number. Like this: - - lot of poo, channel two - - lot of pee, channel three (OK, enough toilet humour) - - wisdom and an unlocked door, channel four - - lot of sticks, channel six - - stairway to heaven, channel seven - - heavy date, channel eight - - Nine, ten, a big fat hen. In fact, a > lot of Joni's word choices are based on rhythm, > cadence, and rhyme. Perhaps > we could start a thread on some of Joni's lyrics > that don't really mean > anything but were chosen to fit a rhyme scheme. How > about 'pachyderm' and > 'germs'? Did somebody mention "pachyderm"? Are you trying to start something? ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 18:26:11 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: Back to T'log Thanks for getting back to Travelogue, Bob. My copy of it is now safely tucked away in the lower cabinet of my shelving unit. It's run its course with me. I'm not sure if Joni thinks she is all used up. Sometimes the muse abandons you (a fallow period) and yet the call of music is still intriguing so you do what you can to fufill your yearning to be musical, even if it means reworking old material. I think Travelogue is a valliant effort but I also think that, somewhere, Joni knew that it would be met with a lot of skepticism and criticism. I think she is probably proud of it but knows it's not one of her best efforts. I think the main problem is that it's too ambitious a project - too bloated and heavy. No one I know would ever go out and buy this album unless they were a fan of Joni's. Its audience is limited and even within this pool of fans there are detractors who think it's horrendous. If there were 10 or 12 songs it would be a bit more easy to take but when I think about sitting down to listen to the entire album I get daunted, like sitting down to read Chaucer or Milton. It feels like work to me. So I pluck the songs I like from it and leave the rest for others to enjoy. I'm glad I've got Be Cool, Flat Tires, Hejira, Refuge and Otis and Marlena, after all. The really big, epic songs like Sire of Sorrow and Slouching are too much. I expect a new album of fresh material from Joni will be on its way to us in due time. - -Andrew - --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > I really joined in again to see what the die-hards > all > thought, but things have been eerily silent on the > subject. > > > 'Cuz our Mama's taught us - "if you can't say > something nice about something, > don't say anything at all" ;~) > > OK, not totally true about the lackluster (to me) > T'log. Firstly, it's > disappointing to me that Joni must consider herself > 'used up' to continue to > recycle her old material. By doing so, she's just > playing into the hands of > the biz that says that when a performer hits 6-0 or > thereabouts they're good > for revues and that's about it. Personally I think > Joni is capable of her > best work yet, so I wish she would push herself > harder than she's doing, > working with the same songs, the same players, and > adding Mendoza's > predictable & mostly tiresome arrangements to some > of her best work. > > On the upside, I LOVE what she does with "Flat > Tires", she should have > employed Billy Preston's organ-playing more than she > does, and I also love > her expansion of the audio colors on "Dawntreader". > Both of these tracks hint > at what a creative expression Travelogue COULD HAVE > been, instead of the > tedium that it actually is. > > Of course, lots of folks here love every nanosecond > of it, and I couldn't be > happier for them. > > Bob > > NP: Jackson Browne, "These Days", live '73 Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 18:40:30 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Laurel Canyon: the movie haven't seen the movie but i watched 'city by the sea' & frances mcdormand is truly amazingly different looking than her previous roles in 'fargo' & 'almost famous'- reminds me of how daniel day lewis looks so different in different roles... >>the writer/director wasn't sure the actress was right for the part. "She got ahold of the script. "I thought it was an interesting idea, but I didn't realize that she looked the way she does now." Imagining the Coen brothers' sometime leading lady still looking like Marge Gunderson, the pregnant Midwestern cop in "Fargo," or the overprotective mom in Cameron Crowe's "Almost Famous," the San Fernando Valley native was unprepared for how perfect McDormand would turn out to be. << ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world, indeed it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:17:46 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Chinese Cafe It suddenly > occurred to me that she is singing the words of Unchained Melody to > her daughter. > I hunger for your touch-i pray god brings your love to me(or something > like that). It makes sense to me anyway. It makes sense to me too, Colin. 'Oh my love, my darling I've hungered for your touch A long lonely time Time goes by so slowly And time can do so much Are you still mine? I need your love I need your love God speed your love to me' Think about those lyrics in relation to Joni's giving up that child. It's been a long, lonely time since she carried that baby. Time has gone by and that baby is not a baby anymore. Time can do so much. Can she really say that the child is hers anymore? (Are you still mine?). She needs to be reconnected. She longs for that love that she's never known and prays she will have it one day. I completely agree with you, Colin. Mark E in Seattle - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.462 / Virus Database: 261 - Release Date: 3/13/2003 ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #178 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)