From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #141 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, February 24 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 141 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #140 [Kardinel@aol.com] Re: State of the List (new members) [Little Bird ] Re: The State of the List [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: State of the List (new members) ["Victor Johnson" ] if it ain't broke don't fix it ["walterphil" ] Re: joni on CBC [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: joni on CBC ["Moni Kellermann" ] Re: liberalism, vertigo, njc [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #63 [Bobsart48@aol.com] What's she playing now? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: The State of the List [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: The State of the List [sl.m@shaw.ca] The State of the List [ReckersL@ebrd.com] Re: State of the List (NJC) ["Lori Fye" ] Re: The State of the List [colin ] State of the List [John Sprackland ] Re: The State of the List [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: The State of the List ["Happy The Man" ] RE: State of the List ["Kate Bennett" ] joni on cbc ["joe farrell" ] tenderness and respect [Mags N Brei ] Re: The State of the List [Murphycopy@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 11:20:08 EST From: Kardinel@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #140 I always looked forward to reading the posts but lately, I too, delete and go through most quickly because I need to get away from the state of the world. Not only that a lot of them are preachy and not very kind in tone. Maureen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 08:37:27 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: State of the List (new members) I think Laurent made an excellent point about the disappearance of new joiners to the list. I was made to feel extremely welcome by lots of people on this list. Even though we are not close friends, I still feel as if I am respected by most people on this list. I wonder, though, if it's the same for others who join and maybe fail to make a good first impression. Are they given a second chance? I have felt at times that I do not belong to that "inner circle" of elders on the list who have met in person, gone to Joni Fests and often meet up for Joni-related celebrations. I sometimes feel as if the people who have known Joni for longer sort of look down on new joiners - "Oh, what does HE know, he's just a kid. How could HE possibly understand?" Opinions are often discounted (not just my own) or outright ridiculed because of who the list member is or is not. This is not productive or particularly kind. Inside jokes and cliquish commentary that anyone else would find meaningless should probably not be posted on a public forum. This is a big turn-off and tends to breed lurking and skimming from new members who have not been made to feel particularly welcome or valued. I do think, though, that learning more about the people who join the list is as Joni-related as anything regarding her career. We have supported her, so are we not "JC" in and of ourselves? I guess basic respect for the nature of this forum is a must - respect for others, respect for the quality of the post and respect for new joiners who may not yet know or appreciate the subtleties of Joni's music. Embrace the new guy even if he may not know all there is to know about Ms. Mitchell! He or she will have lots to say if he or she is made to feel welcome and respected. If he's clueless, educate him! - -Andrew Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 08:56:18 -0800 From: Steve Dulson Subject: The State of the List WHAT I LOVE ABOUT THIS LIST I have met people who I consider (they might have a different opinion!) friends for life. I have travelled to Victoria, Vancouver, London, New Orleans, Santa Barbara, Los Angeles (and more, and more...) and had excellent friends to hang out with. They have stayed at my house. I've stayed at theirs. We've shared dinners, wine, hugs, music, stories. These are people I love. There are people on the list who I look forward to meeting, when our travels bring us together, because I KNOW that we are kindred spirits. WHAT I DON'T LOVE ABOUT THIS LIST I hate to see my friends arguing with each other. I don't mean that we can't disagree. I'm sorry to flog a dead horse here, but I've said, all along (and learned it from experience on this list) that as soon as you start discussing religion, sexuality and politics, someone is going to get hurt. And I hate to see my friends hurt. It bugs the heck out of me when I look at a digest table of contents and see that 90% of the posts are from two or three people. I'm really tired of having calls for moderation condemned as attempted censorship. I'm appalled that some listers post deliberately provocative statements to trigger arguments. I am saddened when listers don't have the sensitivity to take an argument between two people off list. That'll do for now.... - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:03:25 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: The State of the List Since you asked Les, I'll give my opinion. I've been on the list 5 yrs now and I've seen some changes, but nothing drastic. I first joined because of JM.Com. Wally B. had announced "the writers" contest, and you had to be a member of the JMDL to enter. Someone brought that up the other day, and I think it's a great idea (as I've mentioned almost every year). Anyway, Joni was going to be releasing TTT, then she was touring, then BSN and more touring. As we all know, Joni isn't doing very much lately, so it's difficult to discuss new subjects about her. It's been over 3 months since anything has been posted on JoniMitchell.Com. I enjoy talking about Joni, but I for one, get bored discussing what she meant by a particular lyric when it's been discussed over and over. That's why I like the NJC so much. The only thing that bothers me is all of the political/war discussions. There seems to be about 8 or 9 people who are consumed with these debates, but it's important to them. I use the delete key. I like when people post about new or even old artists. I like when people talk about their lives, their pets, their children, their encounters, and yes even circumcision. They may be banal posts to some, but they are light and usually quite amusing. I love it when everyone wishes someone a happy birthday, and they post it to the list. People feel special for that one day when they see that others have wished them a HB publicly. The same when a lister's loved one dies. When I see these public posts of sympathy, it makes me feel like I'm part of a loving and caring community. Like Colin said," Life ebbs and flows and the JMDL does too. I truly believe if left well alone, as it always been, it will flow again" You can look at the archives, and you'll see all of the political threads from the 2000 U.S Presidential election. People were sick of reading them, but those who posted were going by the rules. I just deleted them. I still do, and it's no big deal for me. I still think you do a great job Les, and just by your post alone, I think the list will thrive. Thanks Les, you rock! Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:5:35 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: State of the List (new members) I don't believe there is any inner circle and have never felt a part of one. And for the most part, I don't think anyone is looked down upon. Bob M. and Mags in particular have always been very welcoming to new people. The thing is, you don't just become part of a close knit group of people over night. When I first joined this list I didn't feel so close to so many people. In fact, the very first time I posted I was attacked immediately by someone who shall remain nameless. Other times over the past four years I have drifted away but I always return. Even at Pazfest, on Saturday night at Michael's house, I felt really overwhelmed and had a really difficult time that night though most people are probably not aware of that. But I've stuck it out and now can't imagine not being a member of this group. The biggest project I've ever done in my life is completely intertwined with this group. It's never easy to become more deeply involved in any kind of a relationship and it shouldn't be. It can be very difficult at times and occasionally you may just want to throw the towel in. But ultimately, if you stick it out, than you will find the sense of belonging that you are seeking. And the other thing is, not everyone wants a close relationship with this list. Some people may just want to check their mail periodically and remain anonymous. And that is fine. Some people may simply not be able to come to Jonifest, in spite of a scholarship fund...maybe its just not possible and that's okay too. I think that these different groups of people are simply going to have to coexist together. And sometimes people may feel left out if they don't have that sense of familiarity that many do. I don't think that anyone who has been to jonifest is trying to snub any new people or make them feel that they don't matter. I can see how it might be construed that way but knowing the people I do, I just don't think that is the case. If you really want to get to know some of these people better then make that extra effort. Is it easy? No...But then there are very few things in life that are very easy. In many ways, to pull this cd project together, I've felt at times that I've had to walk through the nine planes of hell. But somehow I manage to keep going. Victor in Decatur > I have felt at times that I do not belong to that "inner circle" of elders on the list who have met in person, gone to Joni Fests and often meet up for Joni-related celebrations. I sometimes feel as if the people who have known Joni for longer sort of look down on new joiners - "Oh, what does HE know, he's just a kid. How could HE possibly understand?" Opinions are often discounted (not just my own) or outright ridiculed because of who the list member is or is not. This is not productive or particularly kind. - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:17:11 -0500 From: "Lavieri, Vince [185776]" Subject: Re: State of the List (new members) Andrew wrote: "I have felt at times that I do not belong to that "inner circle" of elders on the list who have met in person, gone to Joni Fests and often meet up for Joni-related celebrations. I sometimes feel as if the people who have known Joni for longer sort of look down on new joiners - "Oh, what does HE know, he's just a kid. How could HE possibly understand?" I felt the same way when I first joined eons ago, back in 98. I spent months lurking because of that, afraid to post. Once I started posting however it all changed as I felt very welcome. Yeah, some people know each other and are very tight but that to be expected given they have known each other for many years and are indeed close friends. And friends have a bond that shows; how could it not? I have actually met only a few JMDLers as I have never been to a JoniFest. But I don't think anyone is excluded or looked down on - as I said, I know the feeling, but once I entered in, that disappeared. And I feel very close to people whom I have never met, or just met once, because the JMDL is that type of place. I think everyone gets welcomed and what we do after that is up to the poster. If a person wants to make friends here, it is very easy to do, and it goes both ways. No one to my knowledge has their opinion looked down on because they are new or young. If that has happened, I am very sorry that it has felt that way. But no one is going to agree with someone because they are young or new. However, I think young posters are very intriguing because they come to Joni from a different place than a lot of us old people, and that is always fascinating how that happened. Andrew also opined: Opinions are often discounted (not just my own) or outright ridiculed because of who the list member is or is not. This is not productive or particularly kind. my response: I do not feel that that happens. I may have missed something or been insensitive. But who a person is, or is not, is not a factor that I have seen. Sometimes an opinion is not agreed by some with regardless of who posts it. No one can afford to be too sensitive. One of my first posts I remember compeltely missing the point of a Joni lyric (I quoted a part to mean one thing and totally failed to read the next line of the lyric... opps...) and that got pointed out to me - but as someone said, life is for learning. If a new poster feels ridiculed, I have missed that and I hope to hell it has not happened. Sometimes between long time JMDLers, what may appear to be very direct is really the frank exchange of good friends. The reason that I am repsonding to this is because I identify with the feelings of wow, this is some group that is too tight, I can never enter in - it took me a long time to figure out all the HOSLs and NRHs and everything - I didn't have all the albums then and wasn't used to talking in that shortheand - it seemed so closed - but once I entered, I found the reality different. But agreed very much that it can all appear very intimidating. I have found that in several of the other internet communities in which I dwell as well. The only thing that I can suggest is enter in freely and it all happens. Thanks for sharing, thank you very much. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:28:17 EST From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Re: The State of the List Being a Joni-only, I haven't been affected by the political debate, but have noticed a real drop in in JC posts. I would be interested in receiving off JC posts, except for those of a political nature. Since the state of those posts has turned so much of the list off, maybe something should be done, such as moving the political discussion off-list or tagging them with a PC. Otherwise, I feel the list is fine. I've corresponded with some wonderful people, discovered Kate Bennett's beautiful CD through our correspondence, and got to enjoy Bree's heavenly chocolates at Christmas! I have enjoyed off list correspondence with a few members, "magsnbrei" gave me an excellent movie recommendation last evening (My Wife Is An Actress, which was charming), and Mitch in NY was a real inspiration during a particularly rough Valentine's Day. I had the pleasure of being able to get some out of print Joni piano music sent off to Sarah in Scotland, and Bob was so kind to take the time to send me The Hissing Demos and some rare Buckingham/Nicks stuff. There are others, too that I check in with periodically, Kev and Mack, and those friendships are special to me. So these are just a few examples of the goodness that the list creates. The posts may be fallow at times, but I think the community is wonderful as ever. If something could be done about the political discussion, I would not hesitate to switch my status from Joni only. I am not trying to stifle those who are politically passionate, it's just that I have never known much to be accomplished by political debate other than the polarization of people across a borderline. Ken ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 18:39:16 +0100 From: "Moni Kellermann" Subject: Re: The State of the List I have joined this list only a few months ago and have enjoyed most of the NJC postings until the political (and personal) discussions among very few members here started to dominate everything else. I cannot describe how much energy I spent on NOT replying to some postings because I knew they were meant to provoke and lead nowhere. That doesn't mean I am not interested in knowing other members' opinions on politics in general. I also wish it were possible to discuss interesting personal things (whatever that is :)) without everything being archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/joni@jmdl.com/ which is the reason why postings show up as Google search results. As an additional way of communication I offer to compile a buddy list of AIM/AOL users and mail it to anyone interested off-list. That way you could import that list and see whether anyone from this list here is online and maybe in the mood for a little chat. AIM offers the ability to send instant messages as well as create chat rooms. To use AIM, you simply have to get a free user name. It doesn't require AOL membership. More info here: http://www.aim.com/help_faq/starting_out/getstarted.adp AIM also has a "talk" function, i.e. if you have loudspeakers and a microphone or a headset, you can talk to other members. You can also directly send files etc. etc. So anyone interested please send your AIM/AOL name to me off-list. Addition of the country you live in would be nice, too. moni (AIM: kellerfrau) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:49:20 -0500 (EST) From: "walterphil" Subject: if it ain't broke don't fix it relatively newish here (a year or two) who can keep track of time anymore? yes i think the list develops and changes but i'm still happy (and grateful) for it. i think its fun to get a little joni present every morning. i just don't read the downer stuff this ain't the place for it (but i dont think people should be censored either.) i think they should just come to their senses and stop posting unrelated joni stuff. as far as community i dread running into any of you much less hanging out or something! (shudder) (ok kidding kidding) in the meantime i just scroll right past the downers. (war crappola, positive dog eat dog reviews...etc.) and delight in whatever li'l joni tidbit i can savor ps. am i the only one that hates those abbreviations for joni album titles? everytime i see STAS i have to stop and say what the fuck is that?? i personally think my messages are pure delights. full of witty insights and wonderful rich humor. cmon you naysayers you won't know what you got till its gone. lets applaud this wonderful and unusual list. and the great guy that keeps it running xxx walt The most personalized portal on the Web! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 11:52:09 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: joni on CBC Thanks Moni, I'll try to make two recordings of the Joni program then, and I'll send one to someone in the U.S. who wants it, and one to someone in the UK, and then those people can distribute them from there hopefully. Thanks for the info. Sarah At 8:41 AM +0100 02/24/2003, Moni Kellermann wrote: >The TAPES are the same = VHS tapes. >What you record on them is different. >US/Canada = NTSC format >UK = PAL format ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 19:00:21 +0100 From: "Moni Kellermann" Subject: Re: joni on CBC - ----- Original Message ----- From: > Thanks Moni, I'll try to make two recordings of the Joni program > then, and I'll send one to someone in the U.S. who wants it, and one > to someone in the UK, and then those people can distribute them from > there hopefully. As I tried to explain, the person in the UK then would need TWO NTSC vcrs to be able to make more copies. Or you would have to make one recording in PAL, which I doubt is possible. moni ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:02:03 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: liberalism, vertigo, njc But Laurent, does this lack of puritanism apply to the women too? Or are the women the only ones who are expected to be flexible and understanding? ;-) Sarah At 12:08 PM +0000 02/24/2003, Laurent Olszer wrote: >It was Frangois Mitterrand. At his funeral were standing side by side the >widow, the mistress, and the adulterous daughter. I don't think the french >have more mistresses and lovers than americans. It's just we're less >puritan about it. That's why France never understood the fuss about the >Clinton-Levinsky business. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 13:04:42 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #63 Laurent wrote " 1 track out of the Blue era: California where Joni plays lap steel. I had no idea all these years that Joni used a lap steel for this. Although when I watched it was right on. I assume it's in open tuning? So my question is: in what other songs, from Blue or else, has Joni played an instrument other than guitar, piano or cigarette machine?" As far as I know, Joni played the dulcimer on All I Want, Carey, California and A Case of You, all from Blue, of course. That has been widely documented, and she discussed the origins of her instrument on more than one occasion captured for posterity. Bob Sart ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 13:23:28 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: What's she playing now? In a message dated 2/24/2003 1:04:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bobsart48 writes: > As far as I know, Joni played the dulcimer on All I Want, > Carey, California > and A Case of You, all from Blue, of course. Of course...also, she plays the ukelele, at least that's what she started on. Don't know as she ever recorded anything with it. And I won't get into her "oboe" playing again! ;~) Bob NP: Eric Clapton, B.B. King, "I Wanna Be" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:48:54 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: The State of the List Bob, you mentioned the idea of taking the topic of Iraq off-list because only half a dozen or so people write about it on-list. But this doesn't take into account the number of emails I receive off-list from people who don't want to post on-list about it because they feel intimidated. These are posts encouraging the conversation to continue, and I get large numbers of them. So what you wrote, Bob, that "obviously, if no one else is chiming in, no one else is interested," isn't true - it should be, but it isn't. This list can be intimidating because of the level of personal abuse that gets sent around - on and off list - and because of the number of personalized messages that get sent to the list, which not everyone understands. These two things combine to make people unable or unwilling to participate. It's not just politics that stirs things up. People were getting upset with each other, at a personal level, over who didn't or didn't like Travelogue. Colin, you said the flavour changed after September 11. I did an archive search and saw that just before September 11, the list was in uproar because someone received what they took to be a rude private email from a jmdl-er. This person posted it to the list, and people took sides and started sending each other offensive emails. The argument even went on through September 11 and beyond (which I find incredible) with the person perceived to have been rude being kicked off the list, and even his friends being attacked for being his friends. So this kind of thing precedes September 11 unfortunately. I agree with three of the remedies others have suggested: 1) that Les clamp down hard on people who resort to personal insults. Then people would not feel intimidated about joining in. 2) that people be asked to limit the number of posts on any NJC thread per day, and once that number has been reached, take the discussion off-list. This would not limit the overall number of posts they can send in, but would limit their posting to, say, four on politics, four on a non-Joni music topic, unlimited on Joni, numbers and topic categories to be decided. It wouldn't have to be rigidly adhered to, because I don't think anyone wants Les (himself included!) to become a strict moderator, but people could be asked to bear in mind that the suggested limit on any given non-Joni topic is, say, four per person per day, and could be asked to stick to the spirit of the proposal at least. 3) that people not post emails to the list that contain lots of personal references, as that's another thing that puts newcomers off and gives the list its cliquey feel. Sarah At 8:33 AM -0500 02/24/2003, scjoniguy@aol.com wrote: >Additionally, if a topic becomes dominated by 2 or 3 people, take it >offlist. Obviously, if no one else is chiming in, no one else is >interested. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 13:01:49 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: The State of the List Les, as well as having the computer pick up NJC content, could it also pick up PC (political content)? In other words, could the computer create three categories of subscriber? The full list, which would include all posts - NJC and PC posts (as well as unlabelled ones i.e. Joni content) A second list, which would include unlabelled and NJC posts, but would exclude PC posts A third list which would be Joni-only - no NJC or PC posts That way, people who didn't want to read the political posts wouldn't have to go to Joni-only, and those who want the political posts would be able to continue reading/writing them without needing to set a daily limit. Then we'd only have to remember to label them, but if (note, if) we can remember to write NJC, we can also remember NJCPC. Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 19:37:43 -0000 From: ReckersL@ebrd.com Subject: The State of the List Les, thank you so much for posing this question! In the last few weeks, I have become really worried about the list. It did not feel good any more. So much personal sniping, so much impersonal posting of endless articles, so much point scoring... Like many who replied to you still believe, I also used to think it would sort itself out. But then when I found out that many were leaving the NJC list, I knew this was different. How can we have a proper NJC list without Bob Mueller's messages about Steely Dan, or without Bob Murphy's sense of humour? Will we just be left with a political list? For goodness sake, see the list of topics that Mark (so nice to see you back, Mark!) gave that he asked to be copied on while he was on Joni-only! This is crazy, he should be on the NJC list and not have to hide from the barrage of arguments on this NJC list! I do understand Colin and many others pleading for "no rules and no censorship", I feel that would be the ideal too, but I fear, as some others said, that this list will not always automatically recover from everything. Yes, it may survive, but as what? When all the Bobs and Marks and Magses are gone, what will we be left with? Maybe, like any human community, we do need a few laws. I am not pleading for a list without politics. I was one of those arguing against a separate "political" list, because that way we would draw such a drastic line that we (those left on the general list) would lose too much. Politics are part of our life, why partition it off? And then, do we allow circumcision or abortion or any other topics? The diversity of subjects has been wonderful on this list, we've all learnt and laughed so much, we need to find a way to preserve it! I totally agree with what most people have said: self discipline is crucial. What I mean is this: 1) People should be able to make their point, but this endless hammering with more arguments (and this has definitely happened both ways!) is not in the spirit of a friendly chat. Ditto for just posting long articles. I'm sure there must be political debating lists for that, if that's what you want. And maybe they hold elections that can award you scores depending on how good your quote or argument is! 2) I love good arguments myself, but it is crazy to expect that anyone is going to "win the argument". If we try to do that, we end up inevitably hitting out at others and becoming personal. There have been some terrible personal attacks, with the attacker always believing that they were doing it for the right reason, that they had the truth behind them! I think that if everybody actively kept this in mind, then we would not have a problem. But I do think that we cannot be sure that it will happen this way. So maybe we do need an "emergency procedure", a bit like what we already have to exclude individuals who go too far with personal attacks (and I think that a few people should have been given those warnings recently!). So Les, I know you need concrete proposals. Doing nothing is also concrete, and it may cost us too much. So I will stick my neck out and propose something. It could be further refined, but I think it has potential. 1. All subjects are allowed (with NJC of course). 2. We all bear in mind (and maybe this should be repeated in an automatic monthly reminder message) that any posts, political or otherwise, should be in the spirit of sharing personal feelings and opinions, not of winning a battle of minds. 3. As and when any particular topic has been running for a good while and particularly if it is among the same posters, then maybe some "panel" could decide that it is time to take it off-line. Sorry to sound so bureaucratic, but I am trying to save Les from playing sole judge or policeman which I know would be painful for him. I am thinking of a panel made up of, say, Les, Ashara and the 2 Bobs (M). They are all in the States and so could contact each other within the same timespan and agree if it's necessary to send out a message. That message would simply ask for that topic to be taken off line. This means that the people who want to continue the conversation make themselves known and continue among themselves. I know it all sounds a bit unpleasant but I think it could work without too much bad feeling. Hopefully it will also encourage people to address a lot more messages off list to begin with, which is something I have always done and it works well. Just to end on a positive note: I feel that the various replies you have received, Les, are an indication of the love we all have for our community, and I hope so very much that we manage to keep steering it in the right direction before it drifts off the cliffs somewhere... Lots of love, Lieve. ______________________________________________________________ This message may contain privileged information. If you have received this message by mistake, please keep it confidential and return it to the sender. Although we have taken steps to minimise the risk of transmitting software viruses, the EBRD accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by computer viruses and would advise you to carry out your own virus checks. The contents of this e-mail do not necessarily represent the views of the EBRD. ______________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:23:04 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: State of the List (NJC) Laurent wrote: > What struck me when I first joined is the number of personal messages > and inuendos that one can only grasp after being on the list for a > while. Now I'm used to it, but I can see how it would make new > members feel this is a very select club that's hard to enter. That's a very good point, and here's a suggestion (or two or three) to "fix" it: We could refrain from the innuendo, although I think that might detract from the spirit of the list and the friendships made over the last 6 years. We have a "Member Profiles" section (http://www.jmdl.com/gallery/profiles.cfm). Perhaps we can update our profiles to reflect a little membership history? Also, I would encourage everyone who feels comfortable to create a profile for herself or himself. There is also a "Meet the Staff" section (http://www.jmdl.com/staff.cfm), which could also be updated similar to the above. We can perhaps promote both of these sections in the introductory letter that new subscribers receive. (0r perhaps that's already happening?) And/or ... we could perhaps create a new page to include some of the innuendo and history, etc., where new folks could go to figure out, for example, the difference between the Bobs (Muller and Murphy) and why they "dis" each other all the time, or the story of Alison and Stephen's "marriage." Much of that stuff is in the JoniFest pages, but it might be nice to have a "summary" page of history and stories. (As if you need something else to do, Les!) Just my 2 cents at the moment. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 20:43:20 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: The State of the List sl.m@shaw.ca wrote: > > > Colin, you said the flavour changed after September 11. I did an > archive search and saw that just before September 11, the list was in > uproar because someone received what they took to be a rude private > email from a jmdl-er. This person posted it to the list, and people > took sides and started sending each other offensive emails. The > argument even went on through September 11 and beyond (which I find > incredible) with the person perceived to have been rude being kicked > off the list, and even his friends being attacked for being his > friends. So this kind of thing precedes September 11 unfortunately. > Sarah-there is so much more to the 'uproar' you read only a small bit of. The situation you speak of was much more serious than that. It is not a good idea to bring it up again especially when one does not undertsand what went on. people do not get thrown off for being rude. if that was the case, many of us would not be here! Many of us have been rude, either deliberately or inadvertantly. As far as I know, only three people have been asked to leave. One is back. One because they had a problem and posted unintelligble posts and is not back. The other for stuff I am sure none of us want brought up again. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 20:58:07 +0000 From: John Sprackland Subject: State of the List Hi, I think this list is just fine and you should all relax. I don't know what its been in the past (I'm one of those 'new members') but its served me well enough - I've posted a couple of times and had some useful and whole-hearted responses, which is all I can expect. Sure there are things I want to skip over - some tedious discussion that well over-stays its welcome (step forward the Joni's Gay Fans thread!), some people who try to use the list to peddle their political hobby-horses (sorry guys, I spot it a mile off and skip straight over) and I've been tempted, as I think others are, to play the whole list thing as some sort of points-scoring game (the longer the thread you spin, you more points you score!). I know that there are groups within the list who are close buddies - I love that, I don't feel left out because I'm not one of them. Generally, I think there is just TOO MUCH! Even if they were all fascinating,I could never really read that much email. So, personally, I'd welcome more concise postings... but then again, hell, when you're excited about your new vinyl copy of 'Blue' you have to tell SOMEONE! Its fine, just fine... just ignore the bits you don't dig and cherish the diamonds in the rough. John ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 15:02:50 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: The State of the List Hi Colin, my point was not to rehash something I wasn't part of and don't know the background to, just to make the point that the personal attacks on the list seem to have a long history, and I wish they would stop, regardless of any other changes, and regardless of causes. Sarah At 8:43 PM +0000 02/24/2003, colin wrote: >Sarah-there is so much more to the 'uproar' you read only a small >bit of. The situation you speak of was much more serious than that. >It is not a good idea to bring it up again especially when one does >not undertsand what went on. people do not get thrown off for being >rude. if that was the case, many of us would not be here! Many of us >have been rude, either deliberately or inadvertantly. As far as I >know, only three people have been asked to leave. One is back. One >because they had a problem and posted unintelligble posts and is not >back. The other for stuff I am sure none of us want brought up again. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 15:16:41 -0600 From: "Happy The Man" Subject: Re: The State of the List Hey all! Les posted that alone deserves a look. Now all we need is Simon and we know this discussion has been ordained. Not speaking for anyone but myself (but maybe presumeing) this list was designed to create community. I loved my neighborhood growing up but I did not get along with a few of them and sometimes we fought over the stupidest stuff that seemed so important at the time (understanding that was children and we are not children anymore?). Well every week we had a pickup game of baseball in the Homblads backyard (60's Like Sandlot) and those who I had differences with became friends because of a common interest. I still counted them all friends even though I did not hangout with them or accidently got beat up by Candy for pulling her hair. When I was growing up I was really into some cool music and some crap. My best friend Dave and I would listen to Yes, Genesis, Queen, Boston, etc. but he would not listen to Neil Young, Cat Stevens, Elton John with me but we were best friends. His sister Cam introduced me to Joni right after MOA and I was hooked, I knew who Joni was but did not like the scary chick music of the time and finally after listening to C&S was hooked and went backward from there until I was converted. That's what communities do, their a group of people with a common interest (musical, location, faith, etc.) that somehow for the sake of sanity don't all believe in the same thing or agree on everything. But gosh darnit in a way we are family and sooner or later we drop our guard down and say something that is on our heart that someone else might not agree with and then Katie barr the doors the attacks begin or we grow. But I am thankful, I loved to be stretched. I joined the list because I like discussing things about Joni. I can't play her music or sing her songs (bass 2 here and I don't care how many cigs she smokes she ain't gittin this low) but always love to here them done. I've enjoyed the one meeting with Lori and Neil so I know I exist. I get hyped like the rest of you when the new albums come out and sometimes I DON'T LIKE A SONG JONI DOES. I have wanted for years to hook up at a JoniFest. During the summers I was usually booked carting high school kids all over the country. Then came the divorce and a year of being broke (still flirting with that one) and this is going to be the year. I feel ashamed not being able to commit to JoniFest but first priority is a bed for my 16 year old son so when he comes over he doesn't have to sleep on the couch. But I am planning on coming and I am looking forward to meeting up with Les and give him a hug like old friends do even though I have not met him personally. I look forward to Kate or Paz's music. I regret not ever meeting Kenny and especially have to live with the fact I could not make a connection with Wally back in 97 but I prayed for him daily and thank God for the impact he made. In regards to business: Love one another. Think before you speak. Be thankful that we have different opinions or maybe someone would have not introduced us to Joni. Don't hate what you don't understand spend sometime figuring IT out and where IT came from (the story). Peace to you all, Craig NP: Bonnie Raitt - Wounded Heart Donovan - Catch the Wind ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 13:14:33 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: State of the List les, thank you for your extreme patience & for asking these questions... it seems to me that over that past day or so that things have eased up & the discussions have started to reflect a wider range of subjects...maybe this is the natural course of things working their way back into balance... over the past month or more while the vast number of posts have been politically orientated (although i contributed, many i skimmed over due to details or length) imo, it has all been worth it to have inspired such beautifully written pieces such as those of bob murphy & lucy... it is so hard to limit discussions here to no politics because the definition of what would fall under this category is so vague...for instance could jenny have posted about the frontline show that i was unaware of? could people talk about issues surrounding children or animals or gay rights or any number of things that have elements of politics in them?...sometimes a post about an issue, when posted here, brings someone who has been mostly lurking, into the discussions with some incredible insights... however there is a big difference between people discussing issues & people spending days 7 weeks & large amounts of bandwith trying to convince others of their opinion on an issue...however, self regulation is key here...i agree that it would be a tough position to put les in, to ask him to step in & stop a conversation if it was going too far, but if he decides to do that i would respect his wishes... some have mentioned that they want less of the little personal 'in the know innuendo' posts that make it seem like a club here...however, it is precisely these kinds of posts that create such a unique culture here...i will never ever forget the jimmy olympic ice skating post that fooled a few newcomers...as they say in that commercial- priceless... basically i guess i am saying leave things as they are with the caveat that we all need to regulate ourselves better as to the nature, length & number of posts one of the things i value most about this list is the dissussion of world issues as well as music, movies & books etc from so many different perspectives & locations around the world... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world, indeed it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 22:02:16 -0000 From: "joe farrell" Subject: joni on cbc Thanks Sarah and Catherine for your response to the request for tapes of Joni on cbc. Lets hope we can get it organised through the list. Regards, Joe. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 13:34:05 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: tenderness and respect FMYFL@aol.com wrote: <<>> Jimmy, I love what you said so Im picking up some of the threads of your words in agreement and support. So many have offered up wonderful thoughts and ideas.... so here is some of what I feel .... Just like you, I love the NJC part of the list which I was a part of for the three years, jumping over to Joni only in the most recent weeks. More on that later. Why do I love being here? A myriad of reasons. Ive learned so much .. not only about Joni herself, Ive lived into what it means to be a part of a real community comprised of intelligent, funny, warm, sexy, sassy, sweet people from all over the world. Ive made life long friends. Ive found the love of my life...and trust me when I say, I did not come looking for that when I joined in the chorus of all things Joni. There is something to be said for being at the right place at the right time though. ;-) I sit back and listen to the voices on this list and this is part of what Ive heard and seen. Ive seen the baring of souls , expressions of love, demonstrations of courage, passion, compassion, fire, fireworks, heat, humility, humour, caring and sharing of personal lives ... I love that Ive been stretched in ways that have made me sit up and think and think some more. within our community you can find the most generous, loving, caring people on our planet. I have grown along with this community and have gained so much by being here. Much, much more than I ever dreamed possible. When the trickles of political posts turned into streams and then rivers and then tempests, I decided that instead of drowning, I had to take a rest. For me. Nothing personal, I needed a break. I respect the fact that some people need to 'talk politics' here, with a view to sharing their ideas and opinions with people they have come to know and respect. (who am I to say what should or should not be discussed when my feelings and experiences have come to light on more than one occasion). I dont believe that we need censorship..I do believe that a little self moderation is a good idea. If you feel so passionate about a discussion and it ends up rising up between one or two or three people..then as someone suggested, how about taking it off list? I even wrote to some people off list that I was going to try Joni only because I didnt want to miss out on something important within the scope of the NJC list which I was no longer getting..I didnt want to make a big deal out of that.. and I certainly dont like being the centre of attention..Id much rather do things in 'a silent way'. And sometimes I cant be silent. And sometimes Ive learned that I need to just sit still and breathe and wait out the rising of adrenalin that has in the past made me vent a little this or that when I probably should have held off. again, what I see in your writing, all of you, is passion and caring and so much more. I understand. I do. When you feel so strongly, so moved, and even angry, sometimes you cannot help but share it with the people you have grown to love and trust. there are as many reasons as to why people are 'here' as there are members. The love and caring and friendships and every kind of relationship under the sun can be found here and they are real. how many places in your life do you have a sense of community? think about it? this IS the best internet list because WE... all of us.. you , me .. every single one of us has had something to do with that. yes things have changed... as they say, that's the one of the things we can count on in this life... change. Change is a good thing, change means flexibility, fluidity. I dont have the answer(s) as to how to 'fix' the list. I think it is wonderful that many have stepped forward to express how much the list means to them. I know that some of us have made this space a part of our lives. Nothing wrong with that. Had I not been here in the first place....hell, Id still be in Canada ;-) seriously... Ive met the most wonderful friends who I consider my family. I extend my compassion to all of you who are struggling with the state of the world today. These are troubled times indeed. So sad. And yet, I continue to shine my light across this world and send out deep feelings of peace and hope that this may make a difference in some small way. in closing, I will offer up two songs that played over and over in my head as I was trying to figure out what to say in response to Les' question 1. try a little tenderness and 2. show a little r-e-s-p-e-c-t sending you all tonnes of love and hope for peace on the inside as well as on the outside. Mags. You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 16:50:53 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: The State of the List Lieve writes: << In the last few weeks, I have become really worried about the list. It did not feel good any more. So much personal sniping, so much impersonal posting of endless articles, so much point scoring... >> Except for one point, which I will get to later, Lieve made many good suggestions, IMO. Here's some of what I am thinking: POLITICS I prefer not to post political stuff here, but I don't mind that others do . . . up to a point. The political content has grown so much and has gotten so personal that, like Lieve, I agree that reading the list doesn't feel good anymore. When I am in a social situation and the political discussion gets heated, I always suggest that we change the subject by reminding people about that old chestnut that says that friends shouldn't talk about politics, sex or religion. If that doesn't work, I have been known to excuse myself and seek my fun elsewhere. One can argue that these are dire times, and that important issues such as Iraq need to be discussed here and now. But you know what? Any time is always "dire times" for somebody. There are people here who are, for example, vegetarians and post about that subject from time to time, which is fine, of course. But what would we do if radical PETA members joined the list and were relentlessly pushing their views here -- on the Joni Mitchell Discussion List! -- day in and day out? And what if they were constantly engaged in debate by the list's meat-eaters? Well, then we'd have the exact same situation we have now, but with a different topic. My suggestion? Self-control. Post political content moderately. If this doesn't work for a predetermined period of time -- say three months -- then I'd hope that Les might think of adding the PC tag so that people who don't want to read political content can be spared having to wade though all the poop that gets posted. I would join that list today if it became available. Lieve also said: << I am thinking of a panel made up of, say, Les, Ashara and the 2 Bobs (M). >> Thanks, Lieve, for that vote of confidence in my policing abilities! I have often been told I look like a cop! ;-) I have to tell you though, I HATE THIS IDEA! And that's not just because Les (list owner), Ashara (JMDL/JoniMitchell.com fundraiser and NE Jonifest planner), Bob Muller (covers king) and I (Joni in Fiction) all have other duties here. I seriously doubt that anyone on the list wants to become Director of Joniland Security! So . . . INCLUDE ME OUT! CLIQUES/IN-HUMOR/ALLEGED INNER CIRCLE John S wrote: << I know that there are groups within the list who are close buddies - I love that, I don't feel left out because I'm not one of them. >> Amen. If I can't post about Jimmy's next water ballet or Ashara's tofu habit or Kakki's martinis or Bree's chocolate gifts, then I don't want to be here. I was once a newbie and I couldn't understand half of what I read here . . . what the hell Bob Muller's covers were all about, or when certain people were serious or joking . . . but I stayed around. That's part of the discovery and adventure of trying something new. If I moved to some small town in Finland tomorrow I wouldn't expect to be able to speak the language right away, or to know the local celebrities, politicians and other characters that make up my little village! But I would get myself a little phrase book, get the papers, listen to my new neighbors and then PARTICIPATE in my new life. Also, I didn't come here nearly three years ago looking for this pastime . . . I was trying to sell extra tickets to a Joni concert. But I stayed because I was interested in what was going on, not because I "got it" right away. The subject of the "inner circle" comes up from time to time, and if there is one, *I* haven't been asked to join. (Go ahead, Muller. Say something mean!) What is perceived to be an inner circle is in fact Joni fans who happen to be Internet users who have struck up friendships and relationships here by corresponding with each other and/or by meeting at Jonifests or through travel. That's it. As always, THANK YOU, LES, for putting up with us. Sometimes I really do feel bad for you because you generously let us all swim in your wonderful pool even though so many of us have been known to pee in it! Take care, --Bob ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #141 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)