From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #136 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, February 22 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 136 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Things I tried to ignore but couldn't #2 (NJC) [dsk ] Things I tried to ignore but couldn't #3 (sjc) Walecki ebay ["Kate Bennet] RE: Things I tried to ignore but couldn't #2 (NJC) ["Victor Johnson" ] magdalene sisters NJC ["Tamsin Lucas" ] Thank You! njc [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: Things I tried to ignore but couldn't #2 (NJC) [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: SUV's NJC [Randy Remote ] Re: NJC - Move over, Muller & Wally in Beantown [Murphycopy@aol.com] Vehicles: Big Yellow Taxi ["Timothy Spong" ] Newport Jazz Festival vs. Newport Folk Festival ["Timothy Spong" ] Re: NJC - Greetings from Wallyworld! - NJC [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: Joni's hypo box set [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: Newport Jazz Festival vs. Newport Folk Festival [KJHSF@aol.com] Re: trying Joni only and wall to wall (NJC) [dsk ] Re: the box set [vince ] Re: NJC -About a Boy [dsk ] Re: Newport Jazz Festival vs. Newport Folk Festival [Dan Olson ] Re: Liberalism NJC [Susan Guzzi ] Re: Re: Things I tried to ignore but couldn't #2 (NJC) [Darice ] Re: Liberalism NJC [sl.m@shaw.ca] Keyboardist and other celebrity encounters (NJC) [Darice ] Re: trying Joni only (a/k/a: He's ba-ack!!) ["Mary E. Pitassi" Subject: Re: Things I tried to ignore but couldn't #2 (NJC) Hi Darice, There's no arguing with anyone's feelings so thank you for sharing them. It's much better I think to have reactions "out there" instead of as little zingers later on that are confusing and start gumming up the works between people. Are you reacting to the exchange between Kakki and me regarding differences in the way people in different parts of the country seem to regard politics? (Sorry, Kakki, for again mentioning you; it doesn't seem avoidable here.) In that message, I made some GENERAL observations in response to Kakki's comment that PERHAPS people in the Northeast take politics more seriously than people in California. I relayed my friend's experience knowing that, of course, he was not speaking about everyone in California; my mention of him not meeting Kakki was an attempt to convey that and, yes, I know, Stanford is one of the toughest schools in the country to get into. Similarly, Kakki's specific example was mentioning her relatives in NJ who take politics very seriously and yet I know that not everyone here feels that way. Overall, I thought our conversation was more about GENERALITIES and POSSIBILITIES with a sense of WONDERING and MUSING and MAYBE about it all. I do accept that you took my comments as a personal insult, Darice. I don't even know where you live, though, so how can I be talking about you specifically? Again, I'm not saying it didn't feel that way to you, just that it was not my intent to cause you to feel that way. That (as I saw it) general conversation was much different (in my opinion) than the very specific negative labeling some people on list feel/felt targeted with, which is how that discussion got started in the first place. Also, wondering about the West/East coast differences is a topic that's been discussed before several times, and I don't remember anyone getting upset about it. Perhaps in the current atmosphere my comments came across as harsher and more judgmental than they would have during more relaxed times. Be that as it may, my words and intent were unclear and for that I apologize. There's always room for improvement in that area. Debra Shea Darice wrote: > > I am amazed that the listmembers who have had such a problem with generalizations of the American people, and who object to labeling or boxing others, have not responded to the idea that those of us who live on the West Coast, especially in California, are not as intellectual as those of us who reside in the Northeast, and NYC. > > I feel (there's that word again) as if I have been "labeled" a bleached blonde, bubble-headed surfer girl lying in the sun, while the others (more highly evolved) of the species migrate to the East Coast to offer their political "advice" to the rest of the world. > > I am deeeply offended by that statement which has been largely ignored by those on the list who have been so vocal on other subjects lately. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 09:02:48 -0000 From: "Lucy Hone" Subject: Re: Randy Remotes post on politics,Jackson Browne NJC Michael wrote to me, (thanks Michael) From: "Michael Paz" > Hi Lucy > I have been reluctant to post this but I know someone (very well) that is > family with Jackson Brown, who told me that the whole hoopla about the Joni > song about Jackson is BS and out of kilter with reality. SHE said that there > Were times when things were strained ugly and shit flying, but that he never > laid a hand on her. .................EDIT..........> Best > > Paz > P.S. People should NEVER take songs to be reality nor two dimensional > discussion to be the end all word on truth. Thanks My reply..... This is going to sound really really odd. I don't know what you mean about Jackson Browne and Joni.which song is it please and I can read the lyrics...... I have not read any biogs about Joni...though I think I should as I feel very ignorant...I was thinking in terms of when he (JB) was with Daryl Hannah....who voted with her feet about his (alleged) actions... I have to say I have not really read into the lyrics all I should, being anchored to fave albums (Blue, Court and Spark, Turbulent indigo and Hissing) ..and liking the others.... They play all the time on my computer as "writing" music and there are only about 10 of her songs I know the entire words to. I have always loved J B music. I think there is a sensitivity there that comes out in his words, he is very aware of environmental issues and in matters of the heart he seems to hit several nails on the head. THE PRETENDER is one of the songs that gets me for all that we seek in a life partner in a world that is fickle. I know a number of truly gifted artists/musicians who are driven by darker things and have character traits that are hard to support, but none the less they are wonderfully creative and sensitive people and I guess JB falls into this. Joni too, probably... I will have to break my own rule and read a biog won't I....... I liked your P.S.>>>>> P.S. People should NEVER take songs to be reality nor two dimensional > discussion to be the end all word on truth. Thanks........ I know I take song words to be what they are at the time I hear them . Their pertinancy changes as emotions ebb and flow. Moments of deja vu always seem to bring song words to my head......... and I tend to be able to fathom the feeling from the song... It is a beautiful Saturday (Chelsea type) morning here, I am hungover (I do not drink very much as a rule) and I have apologies to make to my neighbours for having left their house, last night, in a state of anger (this is soooo not me) but the conversation got onto the war and they cannot see how none of us can claim to know anything about what this is really about, nor the truth of this messy situation... OOOOPS.... I shall just eat humble pie for a week.........On the other hand...why should I.. could it be that I am getting balshy in my advancing years? Enjoy the day and smile....... Lucy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 09:39:25 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: jonifest sweater njc Michael Paz wrote: > (but >even so it would have been tooooooo fecking small for me) > > > well the one oyu saw belonged to maggie-made to her specs...so i'd be surprised if it fit you! The idea is that whoever won, it would be custom made for that person. I had not inteended the same sweater get passed from winner to winner each year like a Trophy! Mind you, that is a cheaper thought...... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 01:57:54 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Things I tried to ignore but couldn't #3 (sjc) Walecki ebay wow i must have missed that post darice so i'll chime in after you now...fred is everything darice said...integrity is his middle name...he is highly respected by everyone in the music biz.. >>There was a comment on the list about the correction post about the guitar listed on ebay by Westwood Music and FredWalecki.<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world, indeed it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 6:51:42 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: RE: Things I tried to ignore but couldn't #2 (NJC) California, a prophet on the burning shore California, I'll be knocking on the golden door Like an angel, standing in a shaft of light Rising up to paradise, I know I'm gonna shine You've all been asleep, You would not believe me Them voices telling me, You will soon receive me We're standing on the beach, The sea will part before me (Fire wheel burning in the air) And you will follow me, And we will ride to glory (Way up the middle of the air) And I'll call down thunder And speak the same And my word fills the sky with flame And might and glory gonna be my name And men gonna light my way -Estimated Prophet (Barlow) California Rocks!!!! Victor, planning to descend upon California this fall ps. I love New York too pps. Even still it was nice to see the Angels win the World Series and beat out the Yanks. ppps. Just in case anyone is wondering, we do read books and have intellectual conversations in Georgia :>} - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 05:32:36 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: JT summer concerts in NE And for you midwest fans and really in the midwest/CHICAGO ... James Taylor at the Allstate Arena 8/14/03. I have my tickets already thank you! MY best friend has the same affliction for James as we do for Joni. So she had me purchase these this week! I have not seen James since the show back in 1972 or 3, when Carly surprised everyone but me and came out to duet with James on a little thing called "Mockingbird." Was I really only 16 back then? Seems like yesterday. Peace, Susan - --- janine sherman wrote: > FYI JT fans. Good luck, Janine > > James Taylor > Montage Mountain Amphitheater Scranton, PA > Tue, 07/22/03 > On Sale Mon, 02/24/03 > > James Taylor > Tweeter Center At the Waterfront Camden, NJ > Wed, 06/25/03 > On Sale Mon, 02/24/03 > > James Taylor > Hersheypark Stadium Hershey, PA > Wed, 07/23/03 > On Sale Mon, 02/24/03 Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 15:20:21 +0000 From: "Tamsin Lucas" Subject: magdalene sisters NJC I have been away from my PC for a week with a dislocated shoulder. Blimey, that hurt. Still does, I'm not using that arm to type but it's really hard not to use it at all... I'm reading though the digests now. As my 1st trip out of the house for a while I'm being taken to see the Magdalene Sisters later on, anyone seen it yet? It got a good review in Sight and Sound _________________________________________________________________ Surf together with new Shared Browsing http://join.msn.com/?page=features/browse&pgmarket=en-gb&XAPID=74&DI=1059 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 11:29:43 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Thank You! njc Thanks to all who sent me Birthday wishes. I'm heading down I 95 to a south jersey style house party tonight. I've got to find a kewl keychain as a give away. xxoo rosie NP: Bruce/Candy's Room /Winterland one of my bd presents from killer joe Better ask questions before you shoot Deceit and betrayal's bitter fruit It's hard to swallow, come time to pay. That taste on your tongue don't easily slip away Let Kingdom come. I'm gonna find my way Through this lonesome day ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 11:40:20 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Things I tried to ignore but couldn't #2 (NJC) Darice writes: << I am deeeply offended by that statement which has been largely ignored by those on the list who have been so vocal on other subjects lately. >> Maybe the statement was ignored because people believe it's true, Darice? I once lived in Hawaii and later moved from there to NYC. I noticed a HUGE difference between the two places in terms of things "intellectual." In fact, no one ever raved about a book to me while I was in Hawaii, and if I wanted to see any foreign, non-mainstream Hollywood movies, the only choice was to go to the art museum on Wednesday nights. Hawaii had many wonderful things about it, but brainy people was not one of them! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 08:43:02 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: SUV's NJC The best is when you're driving a stick in SF and they put a stop sign right at the top of a really steep hill, then someone pulls up snug behind you! You Frisco people know what I'm talking about. MGVal@aol.com wrote: > My daughter and I were showing my sister and her daughter some of SF when I > stalled on a hill. Even worse, I got distracted, shifted into 3rd and went > nowhere. It took quite a few false starts before I was back in operation. The > rest of the evening was spent calculating my hill crest approach time to > allow minimal hill side stopping. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 11:51:13 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC - Move over, Muller & Wally in Beantown Julius writes: << It occurs to me that the book is actually non-fiction. Does that preclude it, dude? >> Julius! Good to hear from you! Sure, send me the info. Nick Hornby is the writer in Joni in Fiction with the most Joni mentions in his works -- two in novels and one in a collection of short stories he edited. Sometimes Joni in Fiction strays outside its own territory -- for example, Kerry sent info about Joni's inclusion in Bartlett's Quotations -- and I think this is another one of those occasions. Thanks, --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 17:01:01 +0000 From: "Timothy Spong" Subject: Vehicles: Big Yellow Taxi Sometimes the best place to hide something is out in plain sight. In the "vehicles" thread, no one has mentioned (throught the Saturday digest of Friday's posts) the Big Yellow Taxi, although someone did mention a school of yellow taxi fish. Tim Spong Dover, Del., U.S.A. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 17:02:52 +0000 From: "Timothy Spong" Subject: Newport Jazz Festival vs. Newport Folk Festival On the Saturday digest, there was a Friday post with a link to an article about Joni in the 1970s, which included, inter alia, a time when Joni said she planned to ride with Judy Collins to the "Newport Jazz Festival" and was stood up. Was this, possibly, a mistaken reference to the "Newport Folk Festival"? Tim Spong Dover, Del., U.S.A. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 12:04:15 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni on CBC I am praying with confidence that a nice copy of this will find its way onto a JM tape tree. Puleeeeeeeease ! > Subject: Joni on CBC March 4 and 11 > > CBC Life and Times has finally updated their schedule > > http://cbc.ca/lifeandtimes/mitchell.html > > Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 12:12:46 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: NJC - Greetings from Wallyworld! - NJC I saw our beloved part-time Birthday Fairy last night. He is fine, looks great, frisky as ever . . . he even started smoking cigs to be more like Joni! Anyway, if you'd like to see Wally, too, here's the plan . . . WHERE: Johnny D's in Somerville WHEN: Sunday, March 9 FOR WHAT: Jazz brunch! (Probably at noon, I'll find out more when making reservations) Please RSVP as soon as possible so I can reserve! Take care, --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 12:15:45 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: the box set In a message dated 2/21/2003 9:54:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, jll@tampabay.rr.com writes: > Yes, it would. (Where is the song poll archived?) I'm at my sister's this weekend, so I can't pull up the exact link, but it's at JMDL.com, in the member's section, under song/album polls...I look at the album poll every so often, but not the song poll as much. "Amelia" was at the top of the heap last time I looked. > > However, in the interests of JC why don't we take it an album at a time and > debate it? What songs are absolutely essential inclusions > from STAS? Yep...that would be a very interesting and lengthy discussion to be sure. Obviously, I also LOVED Patrick's idea of including covers that are/were significant. As much as we love Joni, I hazard to say that without the early success of her covers, her career may not have come to the fruition that it did. Bob NP: The Beatles, "Getting Better" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 12:27:13 -0500 From: "chuty001" Subject: Murry McLauchlan NJC Finally got a Murray McLauchlan tune off the web. I've been trying a long time. Always had a sweet spot for Murray people think I'm nuts when I start playing it but when I get a head full of that Honky Red... My Dad did the Cprints for one of his later albums, gave me a copy of the album and the original transparencies for my birthday one year. COOL Murray was doing a radio show called swing on a star late 80s early 90s and had Joni and Larry on as guests live in the studio. I have it on cassette some where. I was at work when it aired, as soon as he said and my guest Joni... I grabbed the nearest cassette tape jammed some paper in the safety slots and hit record. If I dig it up I'll see if I can't Digitize it. Chuck ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 12:31:47 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC - Greetings from Wallyworld! - NJC In a message dated 2/22/03 12:13:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, Murphycopy@aol.com writes: > I saw our beloved part-time Birthday Fairy last night. He is fine, looks > great, frisky as ever . . . he even started smoking cigs to be more like > Joni! > Give that Wally a BIG squeeze for me. Thanks for the bd wishes Smurfy Wish I could join u guys, but I'll probably be stuck somewhere in the swamps of Jersey rosie Prayers going out to all those families who lost loved ones in that horrible nightclub inferno in RI to think that this band Great White played at the Stone Pony on Valentine's Day and pulled the same pyrotechnic stunt Better ask questions before you shoot Deceit and betrayal's bitter fruit It's hard to swallow, come time to pay. That taste on your tongue don't easily slip away Let Kingdom come. I'm gonna find my way Through this lonesome day ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 12:32:53 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's hypo box set Bob Muller speculated > So how many tracks would be on a 4-CD set? Given the song lengths for Joni, > there would probably be about 12 tracks on a disc. What are the top 48 > songs at the moment in the JMDL's song poll? That might be a good place to > start. > > Bob I would be interested in seeing the results of a JMDL poll, where everyone lists their top 48, in order, with the results compiled. Perhaps an Excel spreadsheet, sent to each person, with us to enter our top 48 by number and return to a central source for compilation (not that many crazies on this list who would take the time to do that ? I'm not so sure). The scoring structure would be interesting to set up. For example, one could give 48 points to a first place vote, and 1 pont to a 48th place vote. However, I sense that that would overweight the occasional very high placing. Let's say, for example, that there are 160 Joni originals eligible (would we leave off covers and collaborations ?). Then, one might give 112 points for a 48th place vote (that song beat out 112 other songs on that person's list), and 159 points for a first place vote. That structure, in turn, would underweight some songs that most people like a lot but many of whom would list it just outside of the top 48. However, getting everyone to rank all 160 songs might be a bit ridiculous. I think this poll should not even be anonymous !!! (oops - NJC) I suppose I could even set this up, but I am fairly backward in these things. Who runs the current poll site ? Maybe they are better placed ? Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 13:01:36 EST From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Re: Newport Jazz Festival vs. Newport Folk Festival In a message dated 2/22/2003 12:03:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, tim_spong@hotmail.com writes: > a time when Joni said > she planned to ride with Judy Collins to the "Newport Jazz Festival" and > was > stood up. What is up with this story? Does anyone know why she stood Joni up? I read about this in People magazine back around the time of DED's release. Is Joni as unforgiving as I am about this? I recall the article saying that Joni was "uncharacteristically unkind" when speaking about Judy Collins. Ken ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 13:23:29 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: trying Joni only and wall to wall (NJC) Lori Fye wrote: > > Hmm ... I can foresee the need for a new filter: JOBWONJC (Joni only > but with occasional non-Joni content). Or how about a filter for Info Barrage (IB) or Link-a-Minute (L-A-M) for people who think we all need to know about every bit of information they find. People have always shared interesting info but the bombardment over the last three months has been... searching for a neutral word here... unusual. It's as though none of us could possibly find any information on our own. (Yes, I know, delete, delete, delete. I do, I do, I do.) Or a filter for You Must Believe This! (YMBT!) for those passionate political posts. I'd have to label a few of mine with that one. Those filters would remove about 75% of what's been on the list in the last few months, and then maybe the people visiting joni-only land would return. Debra Shea, who's about to enter "don't complain", "don't explain", semi-lurker territory (not quite joni-only but edging toward there) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 13:24:21 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: the box set SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: >Obviously, I also LOVED Patrick's idea of including covers that are/were significant. As much as we love Joni, I hazard to say that without the early success of her covers, her career may not have come to the fruition that it did. > > > Which is say, Judy Collins put Joni on the map. A lot of people first listened to Joni, myself included, because we were intrigued with who it was that wrote that beautiful song - which was beautiful in its day before it was done to death by everyone and almost become a clichi. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 13:36:21 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: NJC -About a Boy Kate Bennett wrote: > > woohoo julius, where have you been?! i have missed your presence here... Me, too. I was just thinking a couple days ago that it's been a while since hearing from Julius, and hoping all was well. > is "about a boy" a movie too? i seem to recall seeing it in the video > store...has anyone seen it? recommend it? I think it's Hugh Grant's best performance. His timing is perfect as always and he's still doing the crinkle face fluttering eyelash moves. In "About a Boy" that's to a minimum, though, and there are some extremely subtle and very touching moments in addition to the humor. One of my favorite bits early on was when the main character is being given a talking to by his friends, who are saying something like, "we know you're not really so callow, that underneath what you show there's a person of substance..." And his response was, "oh, no, I really am that superficial." Ya gotta love a guy who's so honest about himself. And the music was enjoyable, too. All new (I think) songs by Badly Drawn Boy written for the movie. It's one of those "want to own" movies for me. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 11:39:42 -0700 From: Dan Olson Subject: Re: Newport Jazz Festival vs. Newport Folk Festival I'd bet that they (she?) meant the Newport Folk Festival. Ironically, beginning in the mid-70's, the JAZZ festival would have been a more appropriate venue, but at some point, they stopped calling it the "Newport" jazz festival, in favor of KOOL, and later other corporate sponsors (JVC comes to mind). This reminds me of the typo in several photo captions in the "Joni Mitchell Companion", where it's referred to as the "Newport FALLS Festival". ~Dan At 05:02 PM 2/22/2003 +0000, you wrote: >On the Saturday digest, there was a Friday post with a link to an article >about Joni in the 1970s, which included, inter alia, a time when Joni said >she planned to ride with Judy Collins to the "Newport Jazz Festival" and >was stood up. Was this, possibly, a mistaken reference to the "Newport >Folk Festival"? > >Tim Spong >Dover, Del., U.S.A. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 10:49:31 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Another thought on Joni content Let the games begin, I think this is great Lori! Even minimal participation will certainly bring much Joni to the Joni List! Once that ball gets rolling it may become inspiring to others, not to mention what anything Joni tends to spawn new ideas and thoughts I dont see why more writers here don't just drop there works off here for our enjoyment anyway - Thanks Lucy for putting yours out here for our consumpation and of course there's always Smurph with his parodies ... and you know there may be more. Thanks Lori, good idea! Peace, Susan - --- Lori Fye wrote: > Several years ago the JMDL had a writer's contest. I think the only > real "rule" was that the composition had to incorporate Joni in some > fashion - does anyone remember if there was a limit on length? > > Anyway, in the interest of reviving JC on the list, who's up for it? > > Lori > > > ~ > http://lrfye.lunarpages.com > ~ Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 11:09:42 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Liberalism NJC Sarah and All, I think rather than get into a debate involving semantics, we should acknowledge that indeed it is s difference in our culture or politics that creates your questioning the use of "liberal." I have been here all m life and as Randy said the left is often considered the liberal and the right, conservative. Now, as I say we could go to the dictionary and look it up, but that's kind of like going to the bible and declaring an absolute. So I would suggest again that this has been the "tag" here for all of my life. Also, just a note about Conservative vs Liberal. Politics and sentiment are like the market, very cyclical. I will never forget the shame and pressure that was piled on me and fellow "liberals" in the 80's and how long it took some of us to proudly put that name tag back on. Now I am by no means saying what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I am just pointing out that that weight that "conservatives" may be feeling now will pass too. And that everything comes and goes .... Peace, Susan - --- sl.m@shaw.ca wrote: > But I wonder who you're saying isn't liberal? Maybe you use the > words differently in America. In Europe, liberalism is associated > with a certain set of ideas that might be held by any member of the > labour, liberal, environmentalist and conservative parties. There > are conservative labour party activists, liberal conservatives, > conservative environmentalists and so on. Many modern so-called > conservatives are much more liberal than traditional leftwing labour > activists. I see a lack of liberalism in some posts from jmdl > members who would call themselves leftwing, and I see liberalism in > posts from some people regarded as rightwing. The dialectic has > moved beyond these terms so they're obselete and misleading, and they > blind us to an individual's reasoning on any given point - they're > prejudicial labels, anti-liberal in fact. > > Sarah Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 13:32:55 -0700 (MST) From: Darice Subject: Re: Re: Things I tried to ignore but couldn't #2 (NJC) Debra, I hope that the point of my post, that I (or others)would and did take the post generalities as specific, came through. It really doesn't matter that I am a native Californian, but that, after such a sweeping statement (which I don't think had the many equivocating words,such as "wondering" "musing" "perhaps", etc., that there are people on the list that would make it known that they do not agree with these "sweeping generalizations". Thanks for clarifying your remark. Darice - -------Original Message------- From: dsk Sent: 02/22/03 01:03 AM To: Darice Subject: Re: Things I tried to ignore but couldn't #2 (NJC) > > Hi Darice, There's no arguing with anyone's feelings so thank you for sharing them. It's much better I think to have reactions "out there" instead of as little zingers later on that are confusing and start gumming up the works between people. Are you reacting to the exchange between Kakki and me regarding differences in the way people in different parts of the country seem to regard politics? (Sorry, Kakki, for again mentioning you; it doesn't seem avoidable here.) In that message, I made some GENERAL observations in response to Kakki's comment that PERHAPS people in the Northeast take politics more seriously than people in California. I relayed my friend's experience knowing that, of course, he was not speaking about everyone in California; my mention of him not meeting Kakki was an attempt to convey that and, yes, I know, Stanford is one of the toughest schools in the country to get into. Similarly, Kakki's specific example was mentioning her relatives in NJ who take politics very seriously and yet I know that not everyone here feels that way. Overall, I thought our conversation was more about GENERALITIES and POSSIBILITIES with a sense of WONDERING and MUSING and MAYBE about it all. I do accept that you took my comments as a personal insult, Darice. I don't even know where you live, though, so how can I be talking about you specifically? Again, I'm not saying it didn't feel that way to you, just that it was not my intent to cause you to feel that way. That (as I saw it) general conversation was much different (in my opinion) than the very specific negative labeling some people on list feel/felt targeted with, which is how that discussion got started in the first place. Also, wondering about the West/East coast differences is a topic that's been discussed before several times, and I don't remember anyone getting upset about it. Perhaps in the current atmosphere my comments came across as harsher and more judgmental than they would have during more relaxed times. Be that as it may, my words and intent were unclear and for that I apologize. There's always room for improvement in that area. Debra Shea Darice wrote: > > I am amazed that the listmembers who have had such a problem with generalizations of the American people, and who object to labeling or boxing others, have not responded to the idea that those of us who live on the West Coast, especially in California, are not as intellectual as those of us who reside in the Northeast, and NYC. > > I feel (there's that word again) as if I have been "labeled" a bleached blonde, bubble-headed surfer girl lying in the sun, while the others (more highly evolved) of the species migrate to the East Coast to offer their political "advice" to the rest of the world. > > I am deeeply offended by that statement which has been largely ignored by those on the list who have been so vocal on other subjects lately. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 13:38:12 -0700 (MST) From: Darice Subject: Re: Re: Things I tried to ignore but couldn't #2 (NJC) Vince, BE warned....DO NOT get me started on Nixon, Reagan etc. I am still feeling the after-effects of the Reagan governor years (in my pocketbook and in my daily life.) I managed (for years) while Nixon was president, to forget what he lokked like and ignore that, to the rest of the world, he represented the government of the US. Rather ostrich-like, I admit, but it made daily life sooooo much easier. As for Reagan.................................... Darice Original message attached. I am amazed that the listmembers who have had such a problem with generalizations of the American people, and who object to labeling or boxing others, have not responded to the idea that those of us who live on the West Coast, especially in California, are not as intellectual as those of us who reside in the Northeast, and NYC. That is bullshit, as you know. The East Coast only thinks it is intellectually above the rest of us. We humor them. Have you heard of UC Berkeley and the Free Speech movement? Stanford, UCLA (where AL Gore now teaches a class), and other great colleges and universities? I attended UCLA where Angela Davis was a teacher and her mentor Herbert Marcuse taught at UC San Diego. (Davis was fired by then-governor Reagan becuase she was a member of the Communist Party.) Don't brag in California too much though. I have just barely forgiven them for Nixon and Reagan. I feel (there's that word again) as if I have been "labeled" a bleached blonde, bubble-headed surfer girl lying in the sun, while the others (more highly evolved) of the species migrate to the East Coast to offer their political "advice" to the rest of the world. In California (and I thought in the US), one of the great freedoms was freedom of speech. And one of the great joys was discussion and the exchange of information. The myriad viewpoints of the people who comprise the United States, with the wealth of different cultures, is our strength. I am deeeply offended by that statement which has been largely ignored by those on the list who have been so vocal on other subjects lately. Darice, remember that everyone else is jealous of you all. I have searched for the words of one of the greatest philosophers of our generation, a Californian in fact, who said it best about the West being best: Well East coast girls are hip I really dig those styles they wear And the Southern girls with the way they talk They knock me out when I'm down there The Mid-West farmer's daughters really make you feel alright And the Northern girls with the way they kiss They keep their boyfriends warm at night I wish they all could be California I wish they all could be California I wish they all could be California girls ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 15:01:01 -0500 (EST) From: "walterphil" Subject: my joni box set update i did this a while ago i've changed it a bit (due to a few of your comments) while some say it should be limiyed to released material the early songs are just too important to skip xxx walt i remember reading a while back joni saying shed never release a greatest hits or a box set, because she felt people would stop buying her catalog. shed said shed seen it happen to others. but then, she released those hits and misses. well, hits was ok, but misses was a big pile o crap! Someone on this list made up her own version and it was infinitley better. never let an artist pick out their own best-ofs. they never have a clue. (witness laura nyros stoned soul picnic double cd.). the solution is simple. let me do it. i know whats best. period. so without further adieu, here is the definitive joni mitchell box set. ive given myself some restraints. i believe around 20 cuts per cd is a good average, less on later work, because most artists get more long winded. oh, and one more thing. joni CANT do the graphics. She is the worst painter. THE WORST. i willdo the graphics. basically it will be a TON of black and white high contrast photos spanning her entire career, tiny color pix of each album, all lyrics and recording dates, and an extensive recent, and (hopefully) non crabby interview with joni. disc one: early years 1. winter lady (from radio) (so pretty and sad) 2. eastern rain (radio) (an amazing song-should have been on STAS) 3. both sides now (radio) (tuneful-up and flowing) 4. good samaratin (early version of (sort of) this flight tonight) 5. get together (live from big sur) (with csny& sebation) 6. things go better (jonis coke commercial) (it rocks and is so funny) 7. marcie (her best early song) 8. michael from mountains(sounds like a spirit is singing this in an empty house) 9. night in the city (never ceases to get me up-it's joni's "Dowtown") 10. cactus tree (just the best the best the best) 11. chelsea morning (another getter upper-the epitome of early joni) 12. both sides now (tho a little dirgy compared to the bbc radio versions) 13. i think i understand (so simple so beautiful and so well sung) (and that hag b. streisand should just hang it up) 14. that song about the midway (so sophisticated-and yes, bonnie raitt's is equally as good) 15. dawntreader (such an exqusite melody) 16. the gallery (enough little melodic hooks in this one for 3 songs) (it's about warren beatty) 17. rainy night house (so wonderfully strange and mysterious) 18. woodstock (not my fave-prefer csny version) 19. circle game (ick-always disliked this one-but must be here, i guess) 20. morning morgantown (so perfectly sweet) 21. urge for going (b side of radio-just about perfect) 22. for free (bet cha never heard petula clark's version) disc two: acclaimed years 1. carey (love when she rocks) 2. case of you (everyones favorite-not mine tho) 3. california (simple summery perfection) 4. blue ( important song, but too down for me) 5. river (so unusual and strange) (i just hate downey's version--who ever said that guy could sing) 6. all i want (pop perfection) 7. electricity (one of my top 10 - i cant hear it enough) 8. cold blue steel (amazing amazing AMAZING) 9. woman of heart and mind (another top 10 - speaks volumes) 10. for the roses (joni was peaking here for me) 11. barangrill (magic-top 10) 12. down to you (everyones favorite-but i need more melody) 13. court and spark (this one always takes me right back) 14. peoples parties ( top 10 perfection) 15. free man in paris (exciting with a great tune) 16. help me (a lot love it but its blah to me) 17. jericho live (good song, exciting in a live performance) 18. love or money live (ditto) disc three: peak years 1. dont interrupt the sorrow (certainly my fave from hissing, maybe my fave joni song of all time) 2. boho dance (subtle and gets better each year) 3. jungle line (exciting and dense) 4. in france they kiss on mainstreet ( refreshing as a spring evening) 5. shades of scarlett conquering ( very cinematic-and none other than elvis c just loves it, for its outstanding lyrics) 6. song for sharon (top 10--maybe top 1) 7. refuge of the roads (sublime) 8. amelia-(outstanding song from an outstanding album) 9. coyote-(this one reads like a really good novel) 10. hejira (its like watching a beautiful movie--top 10) 11. dry cleaner from des moines (so rich and very funny- unusual for joni) 12. God must be a boogie man-(nice culmination of the mingus project) 13. otis & marlena-(just grows and grows on me) 14. overture/cotton avenue (i just couldnt seperate the 2) 15. don juans reckless daughter (ooooh top 10 top 10!) 16. hejira live (a nice winding down to the side- and a great (yet different) version) disc four: no comprimise 1. moon at the window (some REAL jazzy joni for a change) 2. chinese cafe (like her oldies selection-she must have had a great record collection) 3. impossible dreamer (a pretty gem plucked from the nadir of her career) 4. beat of black wings (strange-spooky-wonderful) 5. bird that whistles (overlooked gem-why doesnt anyone ever vote for this one on the song poll? unassuming and un pretentious) 6. slouching towords bethlehem (what a grabber- moves like a parade of camels) 7. passion play (so fresh and exciting-and joni sings here as well as ever) 8. night ride home (top 10 material here-just perfect) 9. two grey rooms (one of THOSE kind of joni songs -just great 10. sex kills (a little preachy and simplistic but killer hooks) 11. turbulent indigo (as good as anything she has ever done-top 10 for sure) 12. sunny sunday (whistful and fine) 13. the sire of sorrow (a quintissental and very cool song -well sung too) 14. no apologies (one of many great tunes from an underrated albun) 15. taming the tiger (very good and very brave) 16. face lift (have you listened to this lately?) 17. my best to you (heartbreakingly sad and beautiful) 18. both sides now (the ol girls been thru a lot- and it shows-but i mean that in a nice way though) 19. just like this train (i think this does a good job with an old song-something very unusual on that dreaded travelog) there no complaints hee hee xxx walt The most personalized portal on the Web! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 14:17:07 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Liberalism NJC Susan, in Europe the left has such a checkered history, it would be hard to attach the word "liberal" to them. Some are, some aren't. Many are nowadays in the UK under Tony Blair, but that's quite a recent phenomenon. Traditionally in post-war Europe, many on the left were Marxist-Leninist, extremely anti-liberal: they wanted workers' control of the means of production, big government etc. They would be tend toward suspicion of feminist politics, gay rights etc. I attended a Socialist Workers' Party meeting in London out of curiosity in 1989, and they were arguing that women should not be allowed to work so that there would be enough jobs in society for men - - in 1989! It was like stepping back into the dark ages. Yet this party is very influential at a grass roots level in far leftwing circles in the UK. I wonder if this confusion between definitions in America and Europe is what leads to some of the confusions over the peace marching, just to give one example. One of the main organizing groups in the UK was the Socialist Workers' Party, and they teamed up with some very extreme elements in the Muslim community - people who might rightly be called fascists. And it's this "meeting in the middle" of the fascist element with the extreme left in Europe that is always a worry that you don't find in America (at least not to my knowledge). Another example -- neo-Nazi skinheads were marching against war recently in Germany, supposedly in support of their Muslim brothers, as their placards put it. The neo-Nazis in Europe and the Holocaust revisionists in Europe and North America have teamed up with certain Muslim and Arab groups because of their shared hatred of Israel, and you'll find them all opposing the invasion of Iraq. So when I made the point about these terms (leftwing/rightwing and liberal/conservative) being difficult, I wasn't talking about semantics and dictionaries. I was trying to point out that the world is changing, and interesting and sometimes quite scary alliances are being formed. America has virtually no history of extremist politics, but Europe does, so Europeans, I would say, might tend to be more vigilant about extremism, and more aware of how it can worm its way into other agendas. This is why, even if I opposed the invasion of Iraq, I would not have attended any of those peace marches in Europe, because I know those groups were heavily represented there, both as participants and as organizers. To me, the term "liberalism" precludes extremism by definition. Not so, the term "leftwing" -- not in Europe anyway. Sarah At 11:09 AM -0800 02/22/2003, Susan Guzzi wrote: >I have been here all m life and as Randy said the left is often >considered the liberal and the >right, conservative. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 14:27:02 -0700 (MST) From: Darice Subject: Keyboardist and other celebrity encounters (NJC) See what happens when I start to post....I just can seem to stop. Earlier this week, I stopped by a new San Francisco radio station,KKDV, to drop off something for a DJ acquaintance. While driving in and parking, I was listening to Ray Manzarek of the 21st Century Doors in an on-air interview. Ray was leaving the studio as I was coming in and I had a brief, but pleasant conversation about his fiction book, the book signings,etc. Ray has aged elegantly, is friendly, and articulate. FLASH: the "new" Doors are slated to play "soon" in the San Francisco area. The Friday night, severely sleep deprived, I met listmember Richard at the Ben Taylor Band show. What an exceptionally entertaining evening!!!!! Richard had already met the band by the time I arrived and (found parking!!!) The show started LATE, 11:30pm( I had been awake for 22 hours by then) but I was in good company as the band was equally sleep-deprived and had already done two radio appearances after traveling from a show in Santa Ana the night before. The show was about 1 1/2 hours long, mostly original songs, but a great cover of Buddy Holly's (and then the Stones) Not Fade Away and a Taj Mahal song,as an encore. This band has depth, and a real charisma. I am sorry I won't be able to get to the Sweetwater on Sunday to see them again on Sunday. The one bummer of the evening was the very rude and loud crowd at Cafe du Nord. This made it hard to hear Ben's intros and some of the songs. check out www.bentaylorband.com for other venues and dates. Darice ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 16:31:02 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: [NortheastJonifest] NJC - Greetings from Wallyworld! - NJC I wrote: << Please RSVP as soon as possible so I can reserve! >> I should have said please RSVP to me at murphycopy@aol.com, not to the restaurant, of course! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 16:36:17 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: trying Joni only and wall to wall (NJC) Lori writes: << Jim, Bob, Bob (sounds like a good suthun name) - you are DEFECTORS, the entire lot of you! >> Yes, Lori, defectors from the petty wars . . . << P.S. - Smurf, I'll watch for Fiction and pass it to you. >> Thanks, Lori! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 16:36:20 EST From: Rusty10113@aol.com Subject: Re: my joni box set update Hi Walt, gotta tell you, I'd have that list on repeat day and night in my apt... great list for sure//but I'm so curious about songs such as Easter Rain, which I've never heard..am I missing so early gems, and how can I hear them? I had never heard Urge for Going until Hits came out, and it's one of my faves now... Mitch in NYC ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 22:08:20 -0000 From: "joe farrell" Subject: joni on CBC Just to endorse Bob's point on Joni on CBC March 4&11, hope one or more of our Canadian listers will tape the shows. It would be brilliant if the copies could be made into a video tree and made avalable to other listers worldwide subject to the usual terms. Really hope that this will happen as it sounds as if the shows have the potential to be really interesting Regards, Joe. NP Herbie Hancock Gershwin's World. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 15:39:06 -0600 From: "Mary E. Pitassi" Subject: Re: trying Joni only (a/k/a: He's ba-ack!!) Hey--I missed this the first time around! "> the publication of Mary Pitassi's new novel, 'A Life by the Lake' [. . . ]" And here I am, lazing away another cloudy February Saturday afternoon in Madison, WI. I'd better get cracking. ;-) Seriously, Mark: it's GREAT to have you back. You were missed. And Mary Predmore: welcome back to you, too! Good to see your name on my screen again (how long has it been?) - --That *other* Mary P. (who wanted to be known as the one-and-only, but who, I suppose, is technically not). P.S. Mark, we actually have FOUR lakes in this fair city, so maybe I've got a series in the works. ;-) ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #136 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)