From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #129 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, February 20 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 129 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: To Debra NJC and long ["kakki" ] Blues [John Sprackland ] Re: Ben Taylor Band njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Philip Larkin poem NJC [sl.m@shaw.ca] [none] [AzeemAK@aol.com] WORDMAPS NJC ["Lucy Hone" ] Napalm etc NJC [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: e-bomb (njc) ["kakki" ] Re: Blues [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: WORDMAPS NJC ["Lucy Hone" ] Re: Naming names (NJC) Clarification [MGVal@aol.com] Joni's guitars ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: Naming names (NJC) ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Tlog mix [Steve Polifka ] names NJC [MGVal@aol.com] Re: Tlog mix [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Naming names (NJC) [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: T'log mix [Little Bird ] Re: WORDMAPS NJC [colin ] Calling UK John Martyn fans, njc ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: names NJC ["Lori Fye" ] Bit about Joni in today's Inside Entertainment [sl.m@shaw.ca] Anti-war slogans (NJC) ["Lori Fye" ] Affirmative Action Case at UMich (NJC) ["Lori Fye" ] searching!!!! njc [colin ] Re: To Debra NJC [dsk ] Re: Anti-war slogans (NJC) [dsk ] Re: politics NJC ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: WORDMAPS NJC [Susan Guzzi ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 00:18:15 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: To Debra NJC and long Debra wrote: > I do know and have come to expect that Kakki is usually the first (and sometimes only) > person to use the word Marxist or communist when making observations, > sometimes with the implication that people on this list are one of those > trouble-causing, anti-American communists. I sometimes wonder if you actually read my posts or just peruse them to see what you can belabor against me, Debra. I don't want to repost everything and the reason why once again here. You can look at the posts in the archives on the subject from around 1/16/03 - 1/20/03. It started off with me mentioning to Sarah about the ANSWER/IAC group which is openly and actively a Communist/Marxist group. Four or five people questioned me extensively at the time as to whether I was calling anti-war protestors Marxist and I repeated that I was not and that I was sure many people who protested the war were not aware of ANSWER's background. I am not just saying ANSWER is of that ideology to slander them. That is what they openly profess. They actively support Marxist groups around the world including support of North Korea. They also happen to be the first and largest organizer of the anti-war protests since 9/11. That is just fact reported in all the mainstream media. I don't think it is some far out there reaction to be curious about ANSWER's intentions and why they were so organized right away but that is about them and NOT the many other groups or individuals who are protesting based on their individual conscience or pacifist beliefs. > Who on the list has labeled themselves a Marxist or a communist? No one, as far as I know. No one as far as I know, either, and I don't care if some are. >To be a liberal or left-wing or look critically at or make negative comments > about the way the US government does things is NOT necessarily to be a > Marxist or communist. Something you'd probably say you agree with, > Kakki, and yet you imply differently. No, but here is where I get confused sometimes. My example the other day - what if I posted a bunch of articles from for example, KKK website to support tax reform? Would it be extraordinary for someone else here to point out that my sources are racist? No. Then what if I and some of my friends here all protested that someone was calling me a racist. What if I posted articles from Jerry Falwell here in a discussion on Christian scripture. Would it be extraordinary for someone else to point out that the person I quoted does not represent their idea of a good Christian? No. Then I come back and say you are bashing me as a Christian. One does not always follow the other, and I tend to assume most people here can parse it out. > I always see that "Marxist around every corner" paranoia as basic > right-wing thinking, which is where you start from, Kakki, even if you > don't think so. That is really kind of funny to me. I grew up through all those "Red scare" days and used to alternately laugh or be a little scared of the John Birchers. I thought it was all paranoia, too. But when I see this large ANSWER group proudly waving the banner and marching in the street with their Workers World Party placards and pamplets supporting North Korea and Maoist terrorist groups after all these years, I do kind of think "holy shit!" > I'm glad my actions and words fit my core beliefs enough > for someone to "label" me. It doesn't mean that on some issues my > beliefs might not fit that label, just that many of them do. And this is where I have come to think there is a fundamental difference between some of the left and those on the right. My ideologies do not control my every move every waking minute. They are not set in stone (because life and issues are fluid and ever changing) and it is not the only thing that influences who I am. In fact, I kind of dislike the word ideology because it implies that I am controlled by some proscribed set of beliefs that all come from some central clearinghouse, rather than developed and evolved from my own experiences and beliefs. I get the impression from some on the left that they really do think of those on the right as an enemy, that they must crusade against at all times. I see it differently - that we are all Americans and, in the larger sense, we are all people, not enemies divided by political ideologies. I don't feel I have to fight against people all the time in order to stand by my beliefs and opinions. That's why I probably naively jump into some discussions here thinking people can give and take, or at least be respectful. I have not had a full appreciation that maybe some people think that now it's ideological war time and they start firing off the big guns. That's why sometimes I have felt a bit singed. I have also noticed a big difference in the way people from different political parties interact with each other in Southern California vs. the Northeast. My experience in Cal. is that people (moreso Native Californians) are pretty laid back about it all. They don't get so agitated about the differences and would never say "I will no longer have friends who are not of the same belief as me." But I have to say that the people from the Northeast seem to be much more adamant in their politics. I'm not picking those people out here in particular. I noticed it years ago from my non-Republican relatives who live in the Northeast. They just hammer and hammer away and never give one inch in discussing politics and also tend to get more personal about it all. I am not saying that is wrong. It's just an observation that I have pondered trying to understand the dynamics of the whole thing, > The second characteristic of right-wing thinking is to rely on FACTS, as > though objective, beyond-human viewpoint, absolute right/wrong > information exists. Belief in that usually comes across as "I have the > FACTS, and you don't", which is something we've seen on the list also. > The more right-wing the person, the fiercer they are about that > assumption. I think the "right-wing" has felt barraged for years at the many lies slammed against them. That is why they have become so defensive and wanting, sometimes compulsively, to go to the facts. If someone says "Bush is a crazy, stupid imperialist oil czar who is bent on taking over the free world for those New World Order boys and look at all these connections that prove it. His father advises the Carlyle Group, and he is the cause of the ENRON scandal, too" is it so wrong for someone on the right to say, "here are facts which refute that?" If someone on the right were saying that about a left-wing representative, don't you think left-wing supporters might do the same thing? You can boil it down to you defending a friend against a false accusation made by another. Perfectly human behavior done everyday in all kinds of situations. > And the third characteristic of right-wing thinking is to basically > believe what the US government says. I don't know if that's a belief in > all authority or if it's specifically trust in the US government (at > least when the conservatives are in charge) because to not trust the > government is to be unpatriotic. And no right-winger wants to think of > himself or herself as unpatriotic. That equals un-American, which may > equal Marxist, and that's very very bad. And that is just what you say, a characture painted by the left since, it seems time, immemorial. I remember the comedians way back in Nixon's day playing it up to the hilt. Of course, it was those same right-wingers who came personally to show Nixon the door when his illegal actions were revealed. No excuses for him, no spin or cover-up. He could no longer be trusted and it was time for him to go. True conservatives are all for as little authority from the state as possible and I've also observed them to be much more highly critical of their own than those on the left. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 08:30:03 +0000 From: John Sprackland Subject: Blues More on the subject of the relative merits of different recordings of Blue and the CD v vinyl debate, I've just acquired a copy of the limited edition 180g audiophile vinyl version of Blue - wow! Its a gorgeous great slab of vinyl. The depth and warmth of the music is awesome - this is an album I must have heard 1000 times over the past 25 years but its like hearing it again for the first time. You can hear Joni breathing and I didn't realise before how long she sustains the quiet low dying notes of songs (such as the final 'sorrow' of Little Green...). And I've never even noticed the drumming on California before! I've only recently purchased the CD version but this beats it hands down, no question. Its not perfect - there are some glitches, which I think may be on the recording and shown up by the high quality reproduction. And, most oddly for a limited edition collectors pressing, it comes just in a single sleeve - no lyrics or details! Maybe they just assumed you'd already have the original sleeve to put it into... Can anyone tell me whether any other Joni albums were issued on audiophile vinyl - if I could replace my worn thin vinyl copies of HOSL and FTR I think I'd die happy! Incidentally, I thought I might be being extravagant owning three copies of Blue until I read last week's Guardian newspaper - in 'The Questionnaire' Adam Duritz of Counting Crows listed his greatest extravagance as 'owning NINE copies of Joni Mitchell's Blue'! Can anyone beat that?! John - -- John Sprackland ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 00:32:38 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Ben Taylor Band njc fipping to leno at the end of his show to see who the musical guest might be & it only took one note & one look to know that it must be james's son...wow...ben sounds & looks so much like his dad which in one way is a very good thing but i wonder if it is hard for him to sound & look so similar, as he makes his own way in the music biz... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world, indeed it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 03:23:41 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Philip Larkin poem NJC I was reading Philip Larkin tonight and came across this poem, which made me think of some of the disputes on the list, so I thought I'd send it along: The Mower The mower stalled, twice; kneeling, I found A hedgehog jammed up against the blades, Killed. It had been in the long grass. I had seen it before, and even fed it, once. Now I had mauled its unobtrusive world Unmendably. Burial was no help: Next morning I got up and it did not. The first day after a death, the new absence Is always the same; we should be careful Of each other, we should be kind While there is still time. Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 06:00:39 -0500 From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: [none] Sarah wrote: << The Americans are planning to use so-called E-bombs. They emit a high energy pulse that destroys electronic equipment. They're going to be used to isolate Saddam's command and control centres from his army, and also to destroy the electronics he will need to launch his weapons of mass destruction. >> I assume this is a reference to the High Powered Microwave bomb. I recently read a piece about these in the guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,896930,00.html An extract from this article is below: << in the past few weeks, it [HPM bomb] has been sold to the American public as a weapon of mass non-destruction - the Mother Teresa of bombs. "What's good about it," the Pentagon says, "is that it doesn't harm people." Regurgitating PR releases, the American press has hailed HPM as a humane "wonder weapon". The only danger, apparently, is to those with pacemakers or on life-support systems. [...] Although not primarily an anti-personnel device, those who have been exposed to HPM report that its effect is agonising. The radiation penetrates below the skin, boiling nerve cells. It can blind. It induces uncontrollable panic (early research into HPM was as a crowd control agent). >> Still, at least it doesn't harm people, eh? Any side in a war will seek to minimise the more horrifying aspects of its arsenal, whether it's the UK, the USA or Iraq. Information about this is extremely closely guarded, for good reasons. Otherwise, the truth about "gulf war syndrome" would be known by now - and yet it isn't, save for dark mutterings about depleted uranium. Few people involved want to raise their heads above the parapets. I have spoken to a doctor who worked in a hospital in Saudi Arabia during the last Gulf War; the hospital dealt with a lot of casualties from the war, particularly those exposed to chemical/biological weapons. All the medical staff were sent on extra training to recognise and learn how to deal with injuries caused by exposure to such weapons. This doctor told me that the USA dropped napalm during that war, and that he had personally treated its victims. I had no reason to believe he was lying. It is pretty much accepted that reporting on the Gulf War was controlled to an unprecedented degree by the military; the "pool system" employed to give journalists access to any sort of news ensured that it was extremely difficult and dangerous for any journalist to deviate from the party line by attempting to strike out on their own and find out what was really happening. That is why there was such a striking lack of dead bodies (of any side) in news footage - this went to cement the myth of a war of few casualties. It only came out later that the reason so few Iraqi casualties had been found was that thousands of bodies had been buried by bulldozers along the road to Basra (some of them quite possibly still alive). All this to say something very simple: if people in the West were told about and shown the carnage wrought on civilians by war, fewer people would support it. Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 11:38:52 -0000 From: "Lucy Hone" Subject: WORDMAPS NJC Within these virtual wordmaps of this list, the landscape convolutes on turns of phrases by pedantics driven by semantics. Misinterpretations in the onrush to make a point, to underscore belief, to heave a breath, and re-affirm that we know the truth. (the ONLY truth) For me, some sideline scavenger I sit, the room lit. by the pale glow of the screen, whilst the pixellated arguments, erudite and passionate, flicker before me. And in some desert, or on some boat the "just" armies wait. Few signed up for "THIS". Some distant war. Sure in the knowledge that their standard issue guns and footwear have already been proven as unsuitable for the terrain. And will they die? and will they return in body bags? Will they return as heros or villains. And in some desert or in some mountain pass their men wait too. their questions the same but uttered in different tongues, equally worried about their loved ones and the future. Wormaps of the powerful have convoluted their terrain, whilst we sit and pick the fluff from our jumpers or pace the room wondering how to make a point, to silence an opponent. And I feel lost and I feel scared and I feel thoughtful for the future. This world, will have a different meaning a different construct in all our understandings... after the arguments, after the forceful rhetoric, after the final words are given.... And the old wordmaps are destroyed. I have been silent for a while but I have been thinking a lot. I have found the war theme tiring (but admire those who can engage so deeply with the various articles) I am tired because we all know...... and you can do what ever you want with facts and figures, old discoveries of mis-deeds and corporate links, and all the shitty stuff that is what being in power is about... it will make no difference. This is a conveyor belt driven from all sides by all sorts of things, about which we can really do nothing. the term CORPOROCRACY was a wonderful term and should become part of the English Language. It sums up this careless unthinking world better than any other word I can think of. It matters not what language we speak, what party we vote for (even communist) it is money that drives everything and kills the heart of humanist actions. Every thing has a VALUE placed on it, everything has a price...... I feel this proposed war is one price that is far too high for the world to pay..... by that I mean ALL our worlds, our personal worlds, regardless of the god we worship, the colour of our skin, the language we speak, the job we do, the music we listen to and the hopes we have. Anyway that is my bit and I feel a bit more peaceful having said it.... Lucy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 05:45:16 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Napalm etc NJC Hi Azeem, What you say about the E-bomb and the napalm is very interesting - there are too many people suffering from Gulf War Syndrome for it to be a cooincidence. Just one point about not much footage being shown of bodies during the last Gulf War. There was footage taken, but it was not shown on television or used much in the newspapers. These were decisions taken by the news organizations - not wanting to upset viewers. Sarah At 6:00 AM -0500 02/20/2003, AzeemAK@aol.com wrote: >It is pretty much accepted that reporting on the Gulf War was >controlled to an unprecedented degree by the military; the "pool >system" employed to give journalists access to any sort of news >ensured that it was extremely difficult and dangerous for any >journalist to deviate from the party line by attempting to strike >out on their own and find out what was really happening. That is >why there was such a striking lack of dead bodies (of any side) in >news footage - this went to cement the myth of a war of few >casualties. It only came out later that the reason so few Iraqi >casualties had been found was that thousands of bodies had been >buried by bulldozers along the road to Basra (some of them quite >possibly still alive). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 04:25:16 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: e-bomb (njc) Good points from the article, Azeem. Perhaps many have not considered this aspect: > The only danger, apparently, is to those with pacemakers or on life-support systems. [...] > Otherwise, the truth about "gulf war syndrome" would be known by now - and yet it isn't, save for dark mutterings >about depleted uranium. I thought that the illness from depleted uranium in warheads was connected with the war in Bosnia. I had not heard about this in connection with the gulf war syndrome. Maybe you or Sarah can point me to the info. > All this to say something very simple: if people in the West were told about and shown the carnage wrought on >civilians by war, fewer people would support it. Many people in the west, particularly in the U.S,. were shown it every night TV for about 10 years during the Vietnam war and I think it left most with an utter dread and abhorrence of war. Many of those same people also watched live on TV the mass murder and carnage of thousands of innocent people on 9/11/01 and were left with an utter fear and dread of it ever happening again. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 07:54:07 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Blues In a message dated 2/20/2003 3:30:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, john@sprackland.demon.co.uk writes: > Can anyone tell me whether any other Joni albums were issued on > audiophile vinyl - if I could replace my worn thin vinyl > copies of HOSL > and FTR I think I'd die happy! John, the only other audiophile vinyl I'm aware of is the Nautilus vinyl release of Court & Spark. I'm certain that there were no special audiophile releases of FTR/HOSL. Also in regards to Blue, there was an audiophile "gold" release of it on CD. I've not heard it, but my bro Brei said the same thing you did, that it sounded like the "veil had been lifted". Bob NP: RLJ, "Last Chance Texaco" (live) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 13:33:56 -0000 From: "Lucy Hone" Subject: Re: WORDMAPS NJC Thank you Catherine. who has e-mailed me in response to my WORDMAPS NJC posting. > > Nicely said, Lucy. That pretty much sums up the way I > feel too. When will they STOP? This kind of thing has > happened on the list before, but has never gone on so > long and unrelentlessly - it is very tiring! > My further reply..... I have begun to open my mails with something approaching apprehension. (and I try to skip what fails to interest me) Whilst I know we ARE a community and everything can be discussed from circumcision to abortion to hot food for cold days, to the interpretation of lyrics, to the authenticity of guitars offered for saile of e-bay, to caring that colin has had to make a very touch decision about his dog, to wheat free cooking, to wally going to America, to OH Hey, you name it its welcome... but the sheer relentless to-ing and fro-ing of who said what, when and about whom and whether being anti-war = being communist or Anti-American and all the getting personal and all the personal affront that seems to be taken is just soooooo depressing and ultimately futile. We have no power and the smirking faces who decryed the protesters will one day rue their holding of high and cold-blooded office. I really do admire those who can spend their days finding THE article to link in to the mails, but to me it is feeding the beast rather than calming the heart or giving strategies for coping with the absolute certainty that if war does happen it will errupt in our own cities.....we have Poked the sleeping lion at our own risk. The UK has lived with constant knowledge that we are targets for bombs for years and years and years courtesy of the IRA..... We have had enough of that but it will be terror groups from Islamic fundamentalists next and they will not use bombs or if they do they will be like nothing else we have ever experienced. THE USA has had its share of whacko people who have bombed and poisoned and killed. If the events of 11th Sept were the beginning you can be sure there are people in place to back up any retaliation..... Sadly I feel that the West has arrogantly set themselves up for this, by persuing aggressive corporate strategies that hinge on arms and oil and propaganda. I am sure my view point will be shot to pieces and I will be sent evidence that we are kindly and benevolent and always "just" but do you know what, Catherine,.... these are my own feelings and I do not have to justify them nor defend them.... I stand by my humanist feelings that all war is wrong., By sending aid, and not arms or soldiers, we would be far better in a position to understand the world we and others live in. I am reminded daily of the good that can be done... I ran an appeal in a school that sits in the middle of a huge and failing estate. Many of the children come from families that have huge financial problems and constraints on their time and ability to take part in fundraising. I banked well over a thousand pounds from that school and those families. They bothered to look outwards, away from their petty concerns to help children whose lives are not so very different from their own.... makes you think a bit doesn't it. Lucy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 08:41:52 EST From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Naming names (NJC) Clarification In a message dated 02/19/2003 9:55:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, kakkib@vzavenue.net writes: > Hope you enjoy your little victory. > > Kakki, I should have made myself more clear in my post. I did not mean that it was okay for you to be exposed in ways that you did not wish to be. Because Lori had said something like "or anyone else," made me think that others would be lulled into a false security with regards to what personal information gets revealed on this list. I can't begin to guess why Patrick would post your full name. Maybe he forgot about your issues, maybe he felt it was no longer an issue, maybe in the heat of the moment, he slipped. He may have a sharp tongue but I find it hard to believe that he would ever intentionally put you in danger. My point and my opinion was simply: a person runs quite a few risks when they belong to a public Internet list. Your personal information is only as safe as the information that you chose to reveal; either off list or on list. And because so many people have personal identification information posted, if one is not thinking it out, it may not seem like a big deal to use it. From my perspective, using one's full name is not the gross misconduct that posting one's social security number or credit card number would be. That's all. I apologize for seeming as though I was defending any actions that put you in danger. It was not my intent at all. You have provided me with much education from your posts about everything from economics to politics to religion to say nothing of the pure entertainment value of your "brushes with stardom" encounters. So I am very sorry that you felt I was trying to have a victory over you in any way. Sincerely, MG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 14:27:16 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Joni's guitars > From: Dan Olson > Not to belabor the point, but the blond one at > http://www.anglesnet.com/jonimitchell02/JM04-7.JPG appears to say "JONI > MITCHELL" instead (it's difficult to read - I missed it at first). > Yes it does and that's a custom feature, made for Joni. I was responding to another poster who thought the George Benson inlay on the other one meant it was George's personal guitar, which it is not. Regarding the blonde one, keep in mind the pickguard is disintegrating and has released acid fumes which have corroded the pickups. The pickguard must be thrown away as it will soon turn into dust and oxydize all metal parts if left on. And cleaning the corrosion on the pickups will also remove the gold plating. It's happened to me before. "Nothing can be done" Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 06:05:51 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Naming names (NJC) MG, it's always good to *see* you around these parts! : ) Just a couple of things ... You wrote: > So many list members post from work with their full names or have > their home email with their names or use their full names and phone > numbers as signature lines. And that's their choice. I don't post from work because my company's network has enough traffic and the problems/viruses that come with it, but I use my full name from my personal email account. However, you'd be hard pressed to find my home number or address unless you really dig around. There's at least one reason for that (her name is Jesse). But since this discussion started specifically with Patrick's reference to Kakki's (incorrect) full name, I feel I must point out that in the 5.5 years I've been on this list, I've NEVER seen Kakki post from work or post under anything other than "Kakki." MG, you've been around long enough to know at least one of the reasons for this. (xhohx? wasn't that Chris's email name?) And I'm pretty sure that Patrick (who I love dearly) has been around long enough, too. > Given names are also thrown around off list and for various fests, so > it can be hard to keep in mind which person wants what known. Again, pertaining to Kakki, I don't recall her given name being thrown around off list or at any fest (although I've attended only two, and Kakki was present at only one of those). I can't think of anybody who calls Kakki anything other than Kakki. I seriously doubt that Kakki's given name has ever been on any of her official JoniFest nametags, because Ashara and Heather have always been very conscious and respectful of people's wishes. > While it can be poor etiquette, I don't see it as falling into the > way out of line category. Perhaps in a lot of cases it doesn't, but in this particular case it does. Nobody - not even Les - knows who really belongs to this list, who reads what, or the "hacking" abilities of anyone. Of our 800 members, maybe 150 of us actively post. That leaves 650 people we don't know very well (although we'd like to!) - and can we say we *do* know the 150 well? Some we do, some we don't. All that aside, I don't know if "xhohx" is still hanging around here, but I do remember that just before I joined this list, he sent some very disturbing emails to Kakki and Susan L.A. (and you know there may be more). > I'm concerned that thinking otherwise lulls people into a false > security. By now I would hope that no one has a false sense of security about the internet. A person would have to be brand new to it, or be truly naive, to believe they're really "safe" online. However, let's at least respect the measures people take to feel a small sense of security, however fleeting it may be. Kakki wrote: > I guess it's a moot point now and some of you who have always tried > to fight me on this one have finally won. Hope you enjoy your little > victory. Nah, Kakki ... that wasn't even your last name! Peace, Lori ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 09:24:08 -0600 From: Steve Polifka Subject: Re: Tlog mix Thanks Michael! I think I'm going to try this incarnation myself- nice set order, BTW. Steve At 05:55 PM 2/19/03 -0500, you wrote: >I must be the last person on this list to get Tlog. Like many others , I feel >that Tlog is very uneven and way too long. But since it does have its moments, >I decided it would be fun to make my own cut. I made a little 60-minute tape >of may favorites, that I call Tlog plus. The songs work well together and fit >nicely into the thirty-minute format of each side of the tape. Try this for a >Joni fix: > >Side A >Amelia >Refuge >You Dream >Borderline >Both Sides Now > >Side B >Dawntreader >Last Time >A Case Of You >Hejira >Love > >I must say Refuge has taken on new life for me in this latest incarnation. > >Michael in Quebec >NP : Peggy Lee - You're my Thrill > > Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 10:28:22 -0500 From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: names NJC Lori, You are absolutely right about Kakki and her problems. I did re-post a clarification about names and how they are used on the Internet. As I said, I meant it more with regards to the "anyone else" part of your post. I do think that in this day and age and the horror stories one read about regarind the Internet, people still DO feel somewhat safe. People still do get more relaxed than what they should be. And if you've never been through the horrors of a stalker, it's hard to imagine the precautions that are necessary. Once again, my apologies for not making myself more clear. MG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 10:34:01 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Tlog mix In a message dated 2/20/2003 10:24:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, polifkas@milwaukee.tec.wi.us writes: > I think I'm going to try this incarnation myself- nice set > order, BTW. It was an interesting mix, Michael...seems to me like you skimmed the cream of T'log off the top pretty well. I'm wondering how the orchestrations of BSN sound compared to those of T'log when they're played one after the other like that. It seems to me like they would have a different feel...wondering what you thought. Bob NP: Rickie Lee, "Skeletons" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 10:55:14 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Naming names (NJC) Just one other thing to add for people concerned about their identity. It's not just the list members of the JMDL who can read your mail. You can do a google search using your email addy, and it will bring up posts you've sent on the JMDL. I'm not sure if this works for everyone, but I know when I do a search for FMYFL@AOL.COM, I can see a post from 8-1-2001 on feline orgasms (typical JMDL topic). Jimmy (and my real name is Sandra) :~) ps I don't mean to take away from the seriousness of the subject ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 08:43:14 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: T'log mix Interesting selection, Michael, but you missed Be Cool - probably the album's most relevant and exciting track. I have to say you were more generous than I would have been. It's occurred to me recently that Travelogue really doesn't have that many tracks with lasting power. I only listen to Otis & Marlena, Amelia, Flat Tires, Be Cool and Hejira on a regular basis. The rest I never listen to. It doesn't have longevity, probably because it consists of songs that we've lived over and over again in past lives. And there is something a little bit pretentious about the project, a little bit bloated and overworked that becomes more apparent the more you listen to it. It takes itself a little too seriously. Travelogue is nearing the end of its cycle for me. It will soon be tucked away for a long, long nap. - -Andrew Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 17:20:13 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: WORDMAPS NJC Lucy Hone wrote: > I am sure my view point will be shot to pieces and I will be >sent evidence that we are kindly and benevolent and always "just" but do you >know what, Catherine,.... these are my own feelings and I do not have to >justify them nor defend them.... > wow! and I thought your poem was good! Inspiration doesn't come my way very often Lucy. thank you. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 18:44:46 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Calling UK John Martyn fans, njc > Hi, just to let you know that John Martyn will be on 'The Whistle Test Years' tonight (Thursday 20th). It's on BBC2 at 11.50 pm. and is a recording from 1973. If anybody manages to tape it, I'd be interested in a trade please. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 11:21:17 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Naming names (NJC) > Just one other thing to add for people concerned about their > identity. It's not just the list members of the JMDL who can read > your mail. You can do a google search using your email addy, and it > will bring up posts you've sent on the JMDL. Good point, Jimmy. When I wrote my post this morning, I wanted to verify that my memory was "on" about Heather being the other person responsible for JoniFest nametags. So I did a Google search using these terms: heather joni nametags The very first item that appeared was: jmdl.com - JONIFEST: ... so cool-looking; Gina-let's promise to talk more next time; Katie- your Joni Trivia Game enhanced by a wig was brilliant; *Heather-great nametags, Anne-enjoyed ... www.jmdl.com/jonifest/jf990904.cfm - 101k - Cached - Similar pages The terms Joni, *Heather, and nametags were, of course, in bold type. Just a word to the wise ... Lori, who shall now direct Jimmy to this link to answer his "other" (off list) question (about the marathon): http://www.mail- archive.com/joni@jmdl.com/msg28865.html P.S. to Paz: > And you neveer called me and I was trying to get you guys all > weekend. I hope you had a good time and I am sorry you had problems, > but am happy you tried and hope I get to see you tomorrow b4 you go. Dear Michael, I did not have your home or cell phone numbers, and you apparently aren't listed in the local White Pages. Did you try to call my hotel? Sorry I missed you, too! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 11:23:02 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: names NJC Hi MG! > I did re-post a clarification about names and how they are used on > the Internet. As I said, I meant it more with regards to the "anyone > else" part of your post. Yes, I saw it just after I hit "Send." We must have been composing at almost exactly the same moment! All is well. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 13:37:22 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Bit about Joni in today's Inside Entertainment There's a nice photo of Joni, taken in Los Angeles 1970, in Canada's Inside Entertainment March edition, which came out today distributed with the National Post newspaper. It's just a small bit of blurb, although they've given her the whole page: "Pausing for a pensive moment in her woodsy Laurel Canyon home, Albert's Roberta Joan Anderson had, at age 26, already rechristened herself Joni, given birth to a daughter, married and split from fellow folk singer Chuck Mitchell and earned her first Grammy for the seminal Clouds. Arguably the most impressive and influential singer-songwriter Canada has ever produced, Mitchell has since won four more Grammys and was, just a year ago, voted a Lifetime Achievement Award. At the time, she told a Rolling Stone reporter she got her start imitating Judy Collins and Joan Baez "just to get money to smoke". Is she still smoking? Indeed. Still sizzling, too." Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 11:53:01 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Anti-war slogans (NJC) I so enjoyed the recent list of anti-war slogans/bumperstickers that I went looking for my favorite from that list: "How did our oil get under their sand?" I found this link: http://maritimes.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=4066&group=webcast Some of them are repeats (I guess folks are adding to the list without reading everything), but many are REALLY good! Lori ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 12:01:30 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Affirmative Action Case at UMich (NJC) http://www.msnbc.com/news/874808.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 14:02:18 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Each to his/her own NJC Lucy, what you wrote about not needing to justify your feelings or beliefs (I accidentally deleted your post so can't quote from it) has to work both ways. No-one on this list should be advised by other list members what they should and shouldn't discuss IMO. But I agree, of course, about the personal abuse. That is not justifiable, and I think almost everyone wishes it would stop. Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 14:03:52 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Naming names (NJC) Lori, regarding what you wrote about people's posts coming up in Google searches, some of the profiles do too, with pics. Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 20:41:06 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Calling UK John Martyn fans, njc I don't have any new tapes but I can still record it on a tape that is not very old(from xmas time). i'd be happy to send it to you. I assume you have the same system as us? Laurent Olszer wrote: >>Hi, just to let you know that John Martyn will be on 'The Whistle Test >> >> >Years' tonight (Thursday 20th). It's on BBC2 at 11.50 pm. and is a recording >from 1973. >If anybody manages to tape it, I'd be interested in a trade please. > >Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 20:59:14 +0000 From: colin Subject: searching!!!! njc goish you are right. id id a search using my very first email addy and loads of posts came up! all form smoe or listbox(old jonilist). not from any other list. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 16:05:40 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: To Debra NJC kakki wrote: > > I sometimes wonder if you actually read my posts or just peruse them to see > what you can belabor against me, Debra. That's a surprising "wondering". I think my recent responses are the first time I've said anything directly about any of your messages, so I don't know where you get the idea that I wish to "belabor" anything against you. Not so. I am, however, able to remember whatever anyone's said if it strikes me as a pattern, or conversely, is completely out of character. And I think Patrick has a valid point. And the many people here who keep saying some version of "disagreeing with what the government is doing is not being unpatriotic or anti-American" have a valid point also. Why do you think that's said here so often? Maybe not just because of your posts, but yours do add to that feeling that it's wrong to criticize the US government. Bush and his handpicked Congressional members were extremely successful in the last election by expressing that very same attitude. It's not surprising to see it here. Now that it's being openly discussed, perhaps it will not be taken so seriously next time it shows up on the list, or can be discussed specifically rather than in this general way, which is always difficult. > And this is where I have come to think there is a fundamental difference > between some of the left and those on the right. My ideologies do not > control my every move every waking minute. Yes, this is a fundamental difference in the way we see things. To me, one's politics come from the inside, from one's deep-seated core beliefs. Since those beliefs are not easily changed (although they can and I'd hope for every thinking person, do, evolve), it makes sense to me that one's politics do not easily change either. I don't see that as a characteristic of left-wing thinking. Bush's actions flow from his core beliefs, and those beliefs probably have not changed very much during his life, and I don't get the impression he questions them much now (which is perhaps part of his appeal for some people). Other people, and I'm speaking generally here, see politics as something like a coat you put on, different day, different coat, it doesn't really matter since "all politicians are saying the same thing anyway", so just vote for whoever seems like the nicest guy. What's important is just to get along, not work through differences because we're not even going to bother recognizing those, and we'll just aim for (superficially) getting along. It's that attitude, and ignorance and laziness, from my point of view, that has resulted in Bush being president. He blurred the genuine philosophical differences between the parties (and since he's extremely conservative those differences were much wider than in some other elections), acted like Mr. Moderate and promising he'd work with both sides of the aisle, and claimed he really just wants to help everybody. That got him a lot of votes. Now that he's in, the only people he really wants to help are other conservatives. Forget about his words, it's his actions that tell the tale. It makes me furious that we are stuck with him as president because so many people didn't mind being "dumbed down." And, of course, if I was a conservative I wouldn't mind that at all, if I could even recognize there had been a "dumbing down." (And, no, Kakki, that is not a comment about you. I'm speaking generally.) > I have also noticed a big difference in the way people from > different political parties interact with each other in Southern California > vs. the Northeast. My experience in Cal. is that people (moreso Native > Californians) are pretty laid back about it all. They don't get so agitated > about the differences and would never say "I will no longer have friends who > are not of the same belief as me." But I have to say that the people from > the Northeast seem to be much more adamant in their politics. Yes, I agree with that general observation. People who've lived in California and returned to New York tell me that people here tend to read more and be more intellectual. One friend who'd spent five years in LA said he was so glad he could have in-depth conversations again, with almost anyone, because people here are more aware of and interested in what's going on in the world, and that includes politics. (Obviously, Kakki, he never ran into you.) The difference in the weather probably causes some of that difference in attitude. If it was mild and sunny year-round as it is in California and people could go outside anytime and be active, it's less likely people would be indoors, reading, pondering or discussing things heatedly, as people in New York tend to do. And in the whole Northeast there's a long-standing tradition of the importance of politics, so yes people here can have very strong feelings about them. > True conservatives are all for as > little authority from the state as possible and I've also observed them to > be much more highly critical of their own than those on the left. I did mention that those were general observations and that there would be exceptions. In an earlier message, you said something about your opinions holding no value for me. That's not correct, and it's unfortunate if that's all I've shown. This will not replace the sting my earlier words may have had, but in addition to those I also want you to know this: I'm most impressed when you're writing about your personal experiences and are able look at those experiences in all different ways and come to, usually, very gentle conclusions. Your recent post about your encounters with different religions and your father's ranting and raving and yet still believing in the Church was one such post I greatly appreciated. I never got around to telling you that. And there have been many such personal observations from you over the years that I've appreciated and enjoyed reading, and wouldn't even consider disagreeing with. How could I? They are your truth. I think it's brave of you to share with us such close-to-the-heart information. Contrasted with that, though, when discussing world issues such as politics, we think so differently, Kakki, we'll probably always disagree, so 'nuff said by me about those areas for now. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 16:17:21 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Anti-war slogans (NJC) Yes, I saw a lot of those at the rally in NYC. A couple of my favorites that are not on the list are: "Empty warheads found in White House" (with pictures of Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld with tops of their heads tilted back and with nothing inside) "Hell no we won't go, We won't fight for Texaco" (with the red Texaco logo in place of the word) That last one is very good chanting at a protest material. Debra Shea Lori Fye wrote: > > I so enjoyed the recent list of anti-war slogans/bumperstickers that I > went looking for my favorite from that list: "How did our oil get > under their sand?" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 16:22:52 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: politics NJC > Contrasted with that, though, when discussing world issues such as > politics, we think so differently, Kakki, we'll probably always > disagree, so 'nuff said by me about those areas for now. Since this is so clear, that most people are never going to agree, I'm left kind of wondering what the incentive is for such in depth discussions all relating to politics and war. I know when I get together with friends in Atlanta we don't sit around and discuss war and politics, or religion for that matter. Yes, I know I can simply delete posts I don't want to read but when I'm deleting most of them and reading only a few, I wonder a little bit what list I'm on. Victor in Decatur NP: Beck "Sea Change" - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 13:40:21 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: WORDMAPS NJC Hello Lucy, Amongst so many things you said and along your beautiful poem, I too feel more peaceful, thank you. Lucy wrote: > Anyway that is my bit and I feel a bit more peaceful having said it.... > Lucy I have been very busy with work and with play and have little time to do anything here but read, for the most part. Sometimes, here and there I do see wounds healing on the list ... or the beginnings of that ... a change in tone or a more questioning disagreement in an attempt to understand, things like that. Occassionally, we still see the flames fly from both sides - each in their own way - but this is not an easy spot for the world and humanity right now. So we must understand ahead of time, the possibility of nerves being tested. and take the time to breathe and not to hit send, until we are sure we are making the best move, although I would NEVER suggest we attempt to censor anyone. I KNOW, I have a draft box full of unsent anger! LOL! But I think & form my personal philosophies by leading with my heart, followed by my morals, my ethics and the facts as I believe them to be and somewhat with my suspicions. Whatever recipe we all use, for who we are and what we believe, I have faith in the people here, for the overwhelming majority and the most part ... and especially for those who speak and are vocal, to eventually get back to some semblance of civility. And as the arguments retire and we move back to the real reason we are here and the reasons that have spawned from being here, we realize we are all more good than bad and we have a certain affection more than distaste for eachother. It would be nice if it never got out of control, it would also be unrealistic. It is better that we are stimulated and lively than passive and apathetic. As for my view personally in this war discussion, I do feel more peaceful and hopeful. Due to the events this past weekend all over the world; marches, rallies, etc. The polls showing for the most part a split down the middle and I believe people in the middle, changing everyday. And even Dubya in one report I saw, stretching the time out before striking out, to find a solution or give Saddam more time. Hope is more powerful than you may think, I know first hand - it saved my life. Hopefully, it can save the world from itself. Thanks again Lucy, for your thoughts. Peace, Susan Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #129 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)