From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #125 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, February 18 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 125 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Open email to the peace movement NJC [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: Anti war in SF njc [Richard Goldman ] Re: change of mind NJC [Randy Remote ] Father writes about soldier son NJC [sl.m@shaw.ca] Another rare Joni ebay item [Randy Remote ] Re: change of mind NJC ["mike pritchard" ] crash njc [colin ] Re: change of mind NJC [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: change of mind NJC [AzeemAK@aol.com] RE: crash njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Joni on Tracey Takes On... [Chihuahua50@aol.com] Getting one's socks knocked off njc [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Joni on Tracey Takes On... [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: NJC Kerry if you like Comedy [Freddyb4@aol.com] Re: Joni on Tracey Takes On.../Beck on Letterman [Murphycopy@aol.com] Kakki/Sarah NJC ["kasey simpson" ] RE: Kakki/Sarah/ etc... NJC ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: Kakki/Sarah NJC ["kakki" ] Re: Kakki/Sarah NJC ["kasey simpson" ] Re: change of mind NJC [sl.m@shaw.ca] njc Regime Change made simple ["Lavieri, Vince [185776]" ] Joni retires . . . 33 years ago! [Murphycopy@aol.com] 'Blue' on DVD Audio ["Stephen Toogood" ] NJC - Beck . . . Scientologist? - NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Kakki/Sarah NJC [Jenny Goodspeed ] Re: 'Blue' on DVD Audio [Gerald Notaro ] Re: Anti war in SF njc [FredNow@aol.com] Big Yellow Taxi ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: njc Regime Change made simple ["kakki" ] blurb on Wall to Wall Joni [Deb Messling ] New musical featuring Joni songs [Deb Messling ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 02:10:18 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Open email to the peace movement NJC Hi Ron, Tony Blair talked yesterday about the thing you mentioned: that first it was weapons of mass destruction, and now suddenly it's liberation. He said the reason for the war is the weapons issue, not the liberation of the Iraqi people, because if we went to war over every tyrant, we'd be at war with half the world. But he said to remember that liberation will be a by-product, and that makes the war for him a matter of morality. In the same way, Churchill didn't go to war to liberate the Jews, but the Jews were liberated and so that good thing came of the war. I've never argued that America's motives are pure. All the people who argue that America created Saddam are 100 per cent right. Saddam was supported by America (and armed) as a bulwark against Islamic fundamentalism, particularly against Iran. Osama bin Laden was supported to fight the Russians in Afghanistan. This is a perennial American problem, which Randy rightly pointed out today could happen again if the West supports the wrong person to take over Saddam. For me, the bottom line is that the Middle East is a mess, largely of Britain's making because of drawing up maps with no respect for tribal differences, in order to reward warlords who had helped the British in some way, and then giving land to Israel -- which, whether you agree with it or not, has caused massive problems, and I wonder whether the British had the moral right to do it - no offence intended, Laurent. But now that it's there, it has to be defended. We can't expect the Israelis to go throw themselves in the sea. We've got pretend kings in Saudi Arabia, Jordan (which many would argue is where Palestine should be), and the other Gulf states. Some countries rich from oil, some countries very poor. Massive human rights violations wherever you look. The cauldron of Islamic fundamentalism constantly threatening the internal stability of all these countries, because of poverty, lack of due process, lack of representation, and no trust in their governments. So the West looks at this chaos, and thinks - the last thing we want to do is change anything - if there's a vicious dictator, at least he's keeping a lid on things. But as we've seen, it doesn't work - even tightly closed lids will bubble open if enough pressure builds up, and now with al-Qaeda, Islamic fundamentalism seems to have become a threat to everyone - the West AND the Arab world. But at last someone is suggesting radical root and branch change, and I know it's surprising that it's George Bush, and this makes people suspicious of his motives. But regardless of motives, there's a real chance here for a secular democratic regime to be installed in Iraq - the first in the Arab world, and for Saudi oil to become less important, thereby weakening that regime. And maybe the Palestinians would be encouraged by that change to make changes of their own - remember they started out as a secular, democratic movement (or at least they wanted to be) - the involvement of the PLO with Islamic fundamentalists is relatively recent. It IS idealistic - but if no-one is idealistic, how is this kind of change ever going to happen? The Arabs are a great people, although often their own worst enemy, but I think if they could ever embrace democracy and accept Israel, Arabia could be a very great and enlightened nation. And as Arab nations have been some of the main sources and supporters of global terrorism since the 60s, it's in everyone's interests to help solve the problems of that region. As I see it, the peace protesters have their faces turned in the wrong direction. They're not going to stop the war, but they could have an effect on whether Bush and Blair support the pro-democracy movement, or whether some other old fascist, perhaps less inclined to torture, is installed. But not enough people are watching that, so there's no pressure, and it's starting to look as though the Iraqi democrats will be let down again. If that happens, they will turn on the Americans, as will the Kurds, and what with the problems faced by the Kurds in Turkey as well as Iraq, there could be a horrible revolution inside Iraq which could spill over the borders. This is all speculation, but it's possible, so I hope Bush does support the democrats, even if, as you say Ron, it could mean a long period of uncertainty. But I feel that people have the right to be self-determining, even if they make mistakes. Sarah At 1:10 AM +0200 01/01/2000, ron wrote: >the problem that i have with the sudden "liberation" theory is how its been >neatly dusted out & put on display now that the "weapons of mass >destruction" thing seems to have lost popular favor. > > >>>>>You said Iraqis would probably be worse off if liberated. How >could they be worse off? > >go ask the people of zimbabwe, namibia, zambia, mocambique, nigeria, kenya, >zaire, mali, ivory coast, uganda. (and im sure many people could add >numerous other examples to this list) they all thought they were getting a >bargain when they got "democracy". they all came horribly, horribly short. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 00:20:14 -0800 From: Richard Goldman Subject: Re: Anti war in SF njc Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. I arrived from a lot closer, I live in SF, got off the local Rapid Transit and took 3 hours to slowly walk to the Rally. It was a glorious day. Bonnie sang Steve Still's "For What It's Worth" and thousands of people sang along. She did another blues song and saving Mother Earth, don't recall the name, her solo acoustic guitar and voice were phenomenol. She lifted the crowd so high. Joan came onstage and said most of the people at the Rally didn't know who she was, and that was a good thing! And that ... this felt so much better than the anti-war protests in the '70's because...this time it actually felt like we could stop something before it began. Then she read a poem of 'Bush-isms' she's been collecting, called: "Pile the Pie Higher". It was amazing. And she sang Steve Earle's "Jerusalem". And then she brought Bonnie out and together they did an acapella song the name of which escapes me. They were stupendous and made us cry with their beauty. The spirit of the March and Rally was infused with a Peace vibe I have not felt in this world . . . since the '60's. March 1, at 12 noon in San Francisco, and at 3pm in Washington DC, there will be another "Convergence" (that's what the organizers, I think it's still www.internationalanswer.org) are calling it. Richard in San Francisco > >Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 23:51:53 -0800 >From: Randy Remote >Subject: Anti war in SF njc > >Well, I got up at 5 am to jump on a bus with about 100 other >people who made it down to the anti-war march in SF on Sunday >(it was moved from Saturday in deference to the annual Chinese >New Years celebration, which is a big event in SF). The crowd >was exuberant, even joyful. Up to a quarter of a million people, from >old people that could barely walk, to couples pushing strollers, >all races, nuns, transexuals, you name it (one favorite sign carried >by a sixty-ish couple "Average people against the war"). Street >theater. A man standing on a wall, short hair, dressed in a suit >covered with blood and a sign saying "Everything is All Right", >exhorting people to "go home, everything is all right, you don't >need to be here today! Go home and watch your TV!". A small >brass band I could hear but not see playing "Give Peace A Chance". >A man holding a placard that just said "Imagine". Wonder Woman. >Bush and Saddam kicking each other in the butt, then kissing. >The slow walk to the city hall. Every five minutes or so you would >here this cheer coming towards you from the front, pass through >you and keep going onward behind you. We listened to Joan >Baez and Bonnie Raitt singing together on KPFA's live broadcast >as our bus pulled away early so as to get us home at a reasonable >hour. I was thinking of my web friends and the discussions >that have been taking place. >Some of my favorite signs: >War! Good God Y'all! >Bush Gives Vegetation a Bad Name >Collateral Damage Has a Face (Pic of a Middle Eastern Child) >First Strike Makes Us Terrorists >Not With My Taxes >Got Blood? >Stop Mad Cowboy Disease >If War is Inevitable, Start Drafting SUV Drivers >Save 2 Schools $3.5M....1 F22 Bomber $153M >How Did Our Oil Get Under Their Soil? >War Kills The Poor >Drop Bush Not Bombs >Blix Not Bombs >Bongs Not Bombs >(Flag) These Colors Don't Run Everything >George, Why Don't You Send The Twins? (Bush Girls Pic) >Who Would Jesus Bomb? >Impeach The Son of a Bush >God Bless The Rest of the World, Too >This is My Patriot Act >Resistance is Fertile >The King is a Fink >Fight Plaque Not Iraq ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 00:22:40 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: change of mind NJC Interesting article. As to your original point that the war is inevitable and the left should concern itself with the outcome, it seems unlikely that the US gov't would listen to the people's opinion about who to install in Iraq when they won't listen to them on the larger issue of going to war in the first place. Joan Baez said Sunday that people had been asking her how the new peace movement differed from the 60's version. She said it was larger, better organized, funnier and more creative, and that unlike the sixties, it had a chance of stopping the war before it began. RR sl.m@shaw.ca wrote: > I'd urge you to read Nick Cohen's > article at > http://www.observer.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,684005,00.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 02:34:01 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Father writes about soldier son NJC Moving article written by a British man whose 21-year-old son has gone off to war. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7-581431,00.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 00:49:42 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Another rare Joni ebay item Another rare Joni item, it is a photo "collage" by Graham Nash of Joni (which I have never seen) on which Nash has signed and hand written the lyrics to "Our House". Starting bid is $12,500. The bidder, whose identity is protected, is from Lihue, Hawaii. Lihue is the capital city of the island of Kauai, where Nash has a home. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2509512580&category=29893 It's a pretty cool looking photo. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 10:05:43 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: change of mind NJC >>Wouldn't it be a good thing if Iraqi oil meant we were less dependent on Saudia Arabia and OPEC?<< Good thing for who? The USA? The 'West'? Who is 'we'? And even if it WERE a good thing, this is not reason enough to invade and destroy a country in order to get 'our' hands on the oil that clearly belongs to another sovereign state, or am I thinking/talking like a communist again? mike in bcn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:16:05 +0000 From: colin Subject: crash njc my pc crashed. had to do destructive restore, no choice. all my back disc is stufffed too so have lost all my files, icluding all my DAK knitwear designs. Not happy. so have lost all emails etc have no addresses so sorry if you have had no rpelies to mail sent. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 03:44:14 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: change of mind NJC Mike, by "we" I meant the West but I believe it would benefit more of the world than just the West to be less dependent on the leaders of the oil rich states. I didn't say it was a good enough reason to invade -- I don't believe it's the reason for the invasion. And you say "to invade and destroy" - the intention is to invade and rebuild. But on the question of who the oil belongs to: Saddam Hussein nationalized it, by which I understand it's supposed to belong to the Iraqi people, but they have never seen the benefit of it, although Saddam and his family have, even with the sanctions. A democratic Iraqi government might de-nationalize it, and then the profits might benefit the Iraqi people. Whether they denationalize it or not, the Iraqi people have a right to some benefit -- they're living in what could be a wealthy country, yet there's a huge amount of poverty, and always has been under Saddam, which is absurd. Sarah At 10:05 AM +0100 02/18/2003, mike pritchard wrote: > >>Wouldn't it be a good thing if Iraqi oil meant we were less dependent on >Saudia Arabia and OPEC?<< >Good thing for who?. . . And even if it WERE a good thing, this is >not reason enough to invade and destroy a country in order to get >'our' hands on the oil that clearly belongs to another sovereign >state, ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 05:57:20 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: change of mind NJC sl.m@shaw.ca wrote: > I'd urge you to read Nick Cohen's > article at > http://www.observer.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,684005,00.html OK, another article in favour of war from the political left. Nick Cohen is a splendid scourge of the government's hypocrisy, which is his specialist area. I actually found this article woolly and unclear, and it didn't address what seem to me to be the main issues - I couldn't do better than Randy's list yesterday, and to repeat what I've already said. What doesn't seem to be mentioned enough is the flip side of the pro-war argument that it is incumbent on the West to relieve the suffering of the Iraqi people (which we have blithely tolerated for many years, as has been widely observed) by *bombing them*. I would ask those who are in favour of waging war to consider the effect of war on a people who are already frightened and politically subjugated. IT WILL MAKE THEIR LIVES EVEN WORSE. The talk is of destroying infrastructure, so in addition to the inconscionable numbers of civilians who will be killed, maimed, orphaned, widowed and made homeless and jobless, their basic everyday requirements (electricity, sanitation etc) will be worse, no matter how bad they are now. At the risk of stating the obvious: war is hell. Most of the people on this list have probably not lived through a war, in the sense of living in a city that was being bombed, and would want it to stay that way. As someone who has lived through that experience, which will stay with me forever, I can't accept the same horror being visited on another nation, especially on such sp ecious and flimsy grounds. And this was a fairly short war, which did not involve the sort of monstrous high-tech weaponry which will be deployed in the coming onslaught. Let's remember, whenever the weasel words "weapons of mass destruction" rear their head, who invented most of them, who has the most of them, who has used them while decrying their use by others, and who is directly responsible for people like Saddam Hussein getting hold of them. Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 08:55:28 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: crash njc baby, this seems to be happening to all of us all of a sudden. here's a post from me so that you can have my address again. you can also write to wallykai@yahoo.com love, w - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de colin Enviado el: Martes, 18 de Febrero de 2003 06:16 a.m. Para: joni Asunto: crash njc my pc crashed. had to do destructive restore, no choice. all my back disc is stufffed too so have lost all my files, icluding all my DAK knitwear designs. Not happy. so have lost all emails etc have no addresses so sorry if you have had no rpelies to mail sent. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:22:19 -0500 From: Chihuahua50@aol.com Subject: Joni on Tracey Takes On... Has anyone noticed the posters and album covers on the walls in some of the pieces in Tracey Takes On.....? Last night the topic was lying and in the teenage character's bedroom there was a poster from Taming the Tiger. In a recent episode where the faded rock star from the 60s character was trying to have a reunion concert, there was a poster of Joni on the dressing room walls that looked like it came from the Hejira period. With Tracey's great attention to detail, I'm sure Joni must mean something to Tracey. Frank ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 10:50:08 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Getting one's socks knocked off njc It's not that often that I hear someone on the radio and think I MUST make a note of that name; I've just heard a song by Aim, featuring a Canadian singer called Kate Rogers, and I was bowled over by her voice, a very beautiful, yearning, pure instrument. Sounded like a good song too, although I was so mesmerised by the singing that I didn't really take in the words. I think MP3s are available, check her out folks. Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 10:51:31 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni on Tracey Takes On... Frank writes: << Has anyone noticed the posters and album covers on the walls in some of the pieces in Tracey Takes On.....? >> Hey, Frank! Thanks for the heads-up. This info should be in Joni in Fiction. One question: What is Tracey Takes On? Is it a TV show? On cable? In the US? Thanks, --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 11:14:03 EST From: Freddyb4@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Kerry if you like Comedy Kerry If you want to watch some thing really funny, watch "Dinnerladies" Victoria Woods comedy which also stars her mate Julie walters and her wonderful group of characters. Set in a factory canteen, Tony is in charge, once he was moaning about having to listen to "woman talk" PMT etc.. and someone mentioned multiple orgasms, Tony turns to one of the women "Hey Jean, have you had any multiple orgasms lately" Jean "Multiple orgasms, I havent even sneezed since Wednesday. In one episode Julie Walters who plays Victoria Woods mum is knocking off a 16 year old boy in her caravan in the factory car park, and the boys mum comes looking for her in the canteen. Victoria (Bren) says "can I help you," and the mum says "Have you seen my Clint" Victoria pauses and has a great puzzled sort of look on her face just long enough to stretch the joke, before saying, "Sorry" mum "Clint, my son" " Oh Clint ! no , not seen him " "Coupling" a sort of British "Friends" (better I think) is worth a look, wonderful Welsh character played by Richard Coyle ? "Happiness" has the great Johnny Vegas, and "The Book Club" is growing on me, couple of American/Canadian girls in that, their accents sound authentic. You may need subtitles in order to understand the regional accents, but the comedy would lose without them. Here is one to get you going ! When "King of the Hill" came to our screens, everybody loved it, a critic in the "Mail" said that the characters are more real than any of the humans we see in most Americans series, do you in North America agree. Do you agree that TV and Film does not represent the ordinary/ average American well, or at all ???? ( I can almost understand one or two words that Dale says.) And why did they cancel "Bob, The Devil and God" James Garner gave a wonderfully dry voice over as God, the excuse was that it was to keep sponsors happy, but there was nothing offencive about it, you are in the land of the free, and that series said more about religion than any church, I hate commercial TV and Radio, Did the series survive and carry on anywhere on independant channels ?? I loved "Smek" the Devils side kick, brilliant !!!! Kerry your list of goodies, what about Branston Pickle and don't forget "Faggots and Sticky Buns" Adverts "From breakfast Barney to the sign off prayer" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:03:56 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni on Tracey Takes On.../Beck on Letterman I wrote: << One question: What is Tracey Takes On? Is it a TV show? On cable? In the US? >> Hmm. Looks like four questions to me . . . Also, Beck was on the tube again last night, on Letterman's show. I am loving his new stuff, although he always seems to have hat hair lately. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:06:03 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Kakki/Sarah NJC Kakki/Sarah, I think the reason you are being accused of saying people are anti-American is because of the information you post. Both of you give specific links to and on information you present here. It's to hard to argue against the information so instead people choose to argue against you. It takes the focus off the links, and information you provide. I have found myself bogged down by the amount of information presented here, and am still trying to keep up with all the links. Sometimes I have to go back and read them a second time to keep them straight. I think it was Patrick that said 43 people feel that Kakki has called them anti-American, I've only seen 5 post to this effect, however he did include privet post, so out of 800 that's 5% of the listers. I think most understand where you are coming from. Kasey Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:35:43 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: RE: Kakki/Sarah/ etc... NJC I think it was Patrick that said 43 people feel that Kakki > has called them anti-American Actually, I think the "43" number was a technical glitch that came after Bush due to some font problem...I don't think Patrick was giving any kind of specific number... Me...I am finally at home in my new apartment and beginning to unpack boxes and organize. I had spent several days in Asheville recording and also performing. The venue I played in was a very nice and fancy(yet cozy and rustic) restaurant surrounded by vineyards. It almost felt like being in central France. I had a very nice dinner on the house..roasted Elk which I had never tried but found very tasty...and Creme Brulee which was to die for. Did three sets, a mixture of originals and covers (lots of Van and JT) until later in the evening, a table of drunken people invited to over to their table and kept handing me tips as I played "Sweet Baby James", "Carolina", "Free Man in Paris" as they all wildly sang along. I even got a free bottle of wine at the end of the night. I try to stay updated on current events by listening to NPR and occasionally glancing at the evening news but I avoid getting bogged down in it all as I am almost 3/4 through recording "Parsonage Lane", getting to some critical stages, and wish to keep a clear mind. The JMDL/jonifests have for sure been a big part of this whole process, which has come so far from when I went to see Joni Mitchell on her birthday in '98, with a stuffed tiger and flowers in my hand. Personally, I delete all posts regarding politics and war as I come here for the haven and the community of like minded musical/creative people that this list has always been for me. There is enough conflict in the world that permeates everything already. I would rather participate in ways that bring people together rather than ways that create divisions, accusations, finger pointing, and major rifts that are not easily overcome. I remember when joining this list in early '99, apart from a few specific people, for the most part, there was a much stronger feeling of lightheartedness, creativity, and friendship through the music of Joni Mitchell...you could always count on a funny post from Don Rowe/Larry Klein, and interesting insight from Ange in Sydney. I'm not saying that doesn't exist now though it seems a little harder to find. Victor in Decatur, home for a couple of weeks NP: Avril Lavigne "I'm With You" (this girl rocks!) - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 10:09:32 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Kakki/Sarah NJC Kasey, thanks for your support. Patrick actually said this "each of us who has posted criticism of bush 43 has felt accused by kakki of anti-Americanism." I think he was referring to Bush, who is the 43rd president. His father is sometimes referred to as "Bush 41." Then again he may feel there are 43 people who feel I have called them anti-American, too. I have been surprised by the many people who have called and written to me over this. I don't think any of them have the same politics as I do, but all said they never felt I have done what I have been accused of. That's not to deny others' feelings, but it made me feel that I haven't been as despicable as has been presented. I have my own theories on why some people have antipathy towards me here, and I have to confess (self-confess?) that I probably make people uncomfortable if I post a link that refutes their allegations. I don't feel good about doing that, but it gets to the point where I feel so assaulted by the rhetoric that it is the only way for me to deal with it. I better leave it at that for now. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 14:03:49 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Re: Kakki/Sarah NJC My apologies to Patrick for MY misinterpretation of his post. Thanks to all who brought this to my attention. I do not wish to attribute false statements to anyone. Patrick, please accept my apology. Kasey Kasey, thanks for your support. Patrick actually said this "each of us who has posted criticism of bush 43 has felt accused by kakki of anti-Americanism." I think he was referring to Bush, who is the 43rd president. His father is sometimes referred to as "Bush 41." Then again he may feel there are 43 people who feel I have called them anti-American, too. I have been surprised by the many people who have called and written to me over this. I don't think any of them have the same politics as I do, but all said they never felt I have done what I have been accused of. That's not to deny others' feelings, but it made me feel that I haven't been as despicable as has been presented. I have my own theories on why some people have antipathy towards me here, and I have to confess (self-confess?) that I probably make people uncomfortable if I post a link that refutes their allegations. I don't feel good about doing that, but it gets to the point where I feel so assaulted by the rhetoric that it is the only way for me to deal with it. I better leave it at that for now. KakkiGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 13:42:45 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: change of mind NJC Azeem, we haven't just tolerated the suffering of the Iraqi people, we've caused much of it by (a) propping up Saddam Hussein and supporting his wretched war with Iran and then (b) with the economic sanctions after the invasion of Kuwait. I'm opposed to using economic sanctions as a political tool, because it's always the ordinary people who suffer and the leaders who find ways round them. There's a horrible article in today's Times about an Iraqi gravedigger who's keeping track of the children he's had to bury since sanctions began. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-581867,00.html The situation has to be sorted out and I agree that it's incumbent upon the West to do it. But if not with an invasion, then what? Sarah At 5:57 AM -0500 02/18/2003, AzeemAK@aol.com wrote: >What doesn't seem to be mentioned enough is the flip side of the >pro-war argument that it is incumbent on the West to relieve the >suffering of the Iraqi people (which we have blithely tolerated for >many years, as has been widely observed) by *bombing them*. I would >ask those who are in favour of waging war to consider the effect of >war on a people who are already frightened and politically >subjugated. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 15:03:28 -0500 From: "Lavieri, Vince [185776]" Subject: njc Regime Change made simple For 45 years this nation viewed the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc nations as this intensely formidable enemy that had far greater military might and total control than anything dreamed of in Iraq. Want regime change? End the sanctions. Flood Iraq with all the trade and cultural ties and commerce and humanitarian assistance and everything that we can. Allow the people of Iraq unfettered by sanctions to take control of their own fate. Military might cannot withstand the will of the people. Idealistic and silly? That is how the government of the USSR, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Poland, East Germany, Hungary, Czecholslovkia, Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria and every eastern Eurpopean people threw off Communist rule without recourse to war. That is how China went from a Maoist state to a vastly improved climate from its Maoist days. That is how Vietnam evolved into a healthier place. War is not the answer. However, it seems nothing can withstand the will of the peopole combined with good old American consumerism. Call me silly (hey, silly!) but I do believe the Berlin Wall fell without a shot. In early 1989 who would have bet on that? Maybe only those of us who believe that war is not the answer to anything, that violence begats violence, and the people have the right to self determination and they will exercise that when they are ready. We cannot pick who the Lech Walesa is who will jump over the wall of the Gdansk shipyard, the people must do that themselves. And they will, if we enable them rather than attack them. End the sanctions and swamp them with US goods, humanitarian aid, commerce, and contacts. Be a friend, not a bully. Which is how the Eastern Bloc Communist nations all became members of NATO with no shots being fired. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:39:20 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: beck njc got to the website at last! he was on letterman last night & his website says he will be on it again tonight http://www.beck.com/news/index.php ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world, indeed it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 15:48:38 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Joni retires . . . 33 years ago! From << http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030214/ap_wo_en_ge/na_fea_ a_e_cel_us_entertainment_flashbacks_1 >> AP World - General News That Was the Week That Was Thu Feb 13,10:22 PM ET By The Associated Press Entertainment highlights during the week of Feb. 16-22: In 1968, John Lennon, George Harrison and their wives traveled to India to study transcendental meditation with the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Later, Ringo Starr and his wife and Paul McCartney and his fiancee joined them. In 1970, singer Joni Mitchell announced her retirement from live performances. She was back to doing shows within the year. In 1974, Cher filed for separation from Sonny Bono after 10 years of marriage. In 1978, The Police starred in a TV commercial for Wrigley's chewing gum. The ad was made a few months before the band's single "Roxanne" was released in the United Kingdom. In 1979, The Clash kicked off its first United States tour in New York. In 1989, the first heavy metal Grammy was given out. Jethro Tull won. In 1990, Milli Vanilli won a Grammy for best new artist. The duo later gave up the Grammy after a lip-synching scandal. In 1992, fans rushed the stage at a New Kids on the Block concert in Seoul, South Korea (news - web sites), crushing people at the front of the crowd. A 17-year-old girl died the next day of injuries suffered in the stampede. The singers were not injured. In 1995, Motley Crue drummer Tommy Lee and "Baywatch" star Pamela Anderson ( news - web sites) married on a beach in Cancun. The bride wore a white bikini. They've since divorced. In 1997, Farrah Fawcett and Ryan O'Neal announced they were ending their 15-year relationship. Also in 1997, the Trinity Broadcasting Network canceled Pat Boone's "GospelAmerica" show after viewers complained about Boone's appearance on the American Music Awards. He'd been promoting his "In a Metal Mood" album by wearing a dog collar and black leather. The show later was reinstated. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 20:57:40 -0000 From: "Stephen Toogood" Subject: 'Blue' on DVD Audio I was reading a merchandising magazine at work the other day and they had a whole section on DVD Audio's to be released. Anyway among the list was Joni Mitchell's 'Blue'! Anyone else heard about this? I know BSN was also released in this format, but what was on the disc apart from the music because it's not like she had any music videos from either of those albums. What's the sound like on those things as well? STEVE T. NP: 'Hand Full Of Pills' by Stryngs ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 16:04:59 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: NJC - Beck . . . Scientologist? - NJC What is the attraction of Scientology for entertainers such as Tom Cruise, John Travolta and now Beck? I know very little about the religion (or is it more of a belief system?) except that someone I knew 15 years or so ago successfully sued the organization to get her inheritance back. Plus, Scientologists used to be all over Cambridge, Massachsetts and Boston's Back Bay offering "free personality tests." From << http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/pagesix/20030218/en_pagesix/wha t_blizzard_ >> BECK and his new girlfriend, actress Marissa Ribisi, braved the blizzard Sunday night to hit the Luca Lounge in the East Village for designer Rebecca Minkoff's fall collection party. Ribisi, twin sister of actor Giovanni Ribisi , is said to share a passion for Scientology with the pop star. The pair partied with Minkoff, one of Marissa's close pals, and "That '70s Show" star Danny Masterson, another Scientology enthusiast. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 13:05:38 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: Kakki/Sarah NJC Been watching the discussion on war (actually it's more a debate, than a discussion) from the sidelines these days, but I wanted to comment on this. I realize, Kasey, your note was for Kakki and Sarah, but since you posted to the list, I'll chime in and say I think it is unlikely that people make "personal" arguments because it is hard for them to make arguments against the links to articles that people provide. For every article/opinion piece that non joni-onlies read supporting the war on Iraq, there is another out there presenting equally compelling information against it. Now granted not everyone has the time or inclination to post links to articles they found informative or compelling, but I don't think this is the reason someone would accuse Kakki of calling people anti-american. Give people some credit. Some people have an emotional response to having their views challenged. Some people are having emotional responses to the war outside of JMDL and so when they read a note from someone presenting an opposing view they bring to the table all those other feelings and crap they've been bombarded with outside the list and could interpret things in a way that was not intended by the writer. Jenny (Enjoying the first "snow day" she's had in years) kasey simpson wrote:Kakki/Sarah, I think the reason you are being accused of saying people are anti-American is because of the information you post. Both of you give specific links to and on information you present here. It's to hard to argue against the information so instead people choose to argue against you. It takes the focus off the links, and information you provide. I have found myself bogged down by the amount of information presented here, and am still trying to keep up with all the links. Sometimes I have to go back and read them a second time to keep them straight. I think it was Patrick that said 43 people feel that Kakki has called them anti-American, I've only seen 5 post to this effect, however he did include privet post, so out of 800 that's 5% of the listers. I think most understand where you are coming from. Kasey Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 16:12:44 -0500 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: 'Blue' on DVD Audio I have BSN on DVD-Audio. OK. This gets confusing, so stick with me. It has two formats recorded on it: DVD-Audio, DVD-Video (a real misnomer), and no cd recording. Any DVD player will play the dvd video tracks, which have no video on them, but a 5.1 dvd audio track on it. It sounds just great in 5.1 sound. My dvd player does not play the DVD-Audio format, so I haven't heard it. I imagine it is awesome. I have Blue in both HDCD (which my dvd player DOES decode) and the Gold DCC disc. Both are superb. I would probably buy the DVD-Audio disc to hear the 5.1 recording remastered. Now for the quiz ............ Jerry NP: Beth Nielsen Chapman - You Turn Me On I'm a Radio Stephen Toogood wrote: > I was reading a merchandising magazine at work the other day and they had a > whole section on DVD Audio's to be released. > Anyway among the list was Joni Mitchell's 'Blue'! > Anyone else heard about this? > I know BSN was also released in this format, but what was on the disc apart > from the music because it's not like she had any music videos from either of > those albums. > What's the sound like on those things as well? > > STEVE T. > > NP: 'Hand Full Of Pills' by Stryngs ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 16:13:33 -0500 From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Anti war in SF njc That's a beautiful dream, Randy. Wish I could have been there. Back in the 60s I had a button that read: Brahms, not bombs. Today our Glorious Leader said he wouldn't be deterred by global protests against war. "Democracy is a beautiful thing," Bush said, adding that "people are allowed to express their opinion." Not that he's listening. - -Fred Randy Remote writes: >Well, I got up at 5 am to jump on a bus with about 100 other >people who made it down to the anti-war march in SF on Sunday >(it was moved from Saturday in deference to the annual Chinese >New Years celebration, which is a big event in SF). The crowd >was exuberant, even joyful. Up to a quarter of a million people, from >old people that could barely walk, to couples pushing strollers, >all races, nuns, transexuals, you name it (one favorite sign carried >by a sixty-ish couple "Average people against the war"). Street >theater. A man standing on a wall, short hair, dressed in a suit >covered with blood and a sign saying "Everything is All Right", >exhorting people to "go home, everything is all right, you don't >need to be here today! Go home and watch your TV!". A small >brass band I could hear but not see playing "Give Peace A Chance". >A man holding a placard that just said "Imagine". Wonder Woman. >Bush and Saddam kicking each other in the butt, then kissing. >The slow walk to the city hall. Every five minutes or so you would >here this cheer coming towards you from the front, pass through >you and keep going onward behind you. We listened to Joan >Baez and Bonnie Raitt singing together on KPFA's live broadcast >as our bus pulled away early so as to get us home at a reasonable >hour. I was thinking of my web friends and the discussions >that have been taking place. >Some of my favorite signs: >War! Good God Y'all! >Bush Gives Vegetation a Bad Name >Collateral Damage Has a Face (Pic of a Middle Eastern Child) >First Strike Makes Us Terrorists >Not With My Taxes >Got Blood? >Stop Mad Cowboy Disease >If War is Inevitable, Start Drafting SUV Drivers >Save 2 Schools $3.5M....1 F22 Bomber $153M >How Did Our Oil Get Under Their Soil? >War Kills The Poor >Drop Bush Not Bombs >Blix Not Bombs >Bongs Not Bombs >(Flag) These Colors Don't Run Everything >George, Why Don't You Send The Twins? (Bush Girls Pic) >Who Would Jesus Bomb? >Impeach The Son of a Bush >God Bless The Rest of the World, Too >This is My Patriot Act >Resistance is Fertile >The King is a Fink >Fight Plaque Not Iraq ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 16:25:33 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Big Yellow Taxi Big Yellow Taxi, the Counting Crows version, seems to be getting alot of airplay here in Atlanta. I've heard it several times, in the past few weeks, just flipping around. It's nice to hear a joni song frequently on the radio, even if it's not her. Victor NP: Jen Worthen "Don't Kiss Me Again" (one of the many fabulous Asheville musicians...she did "Help Me" at the end of her cd release party last week and nailed it!) - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 13:54:33 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: njc Regime Change made simple Vince wrote: > Want regime change? End the sanctions. > > Flood Iraq with all the trade and cultural ties and > commerce and humanitarian assistance and everything that we > can. I think that's a great idea but how does one get around Saddam to get it to them? Many countries have given them humanitarian aid and bought oil for food, etc., but all you see Saddam do with it is build more opulent palaces. What does go to help them does not seem to be reaching them. I had a long talk with an Iraqi exile here some years back. He was apoplectic in his opposition to Saddam but also wished that the sanctions would end because they were not hurting Saddam, but the people. > That is how the government of the USSR, Lithuania, Latvia, > Estonia, Poland, East Germany, Hungary, Czecholslovkia, > Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria and every eastern Eurpopean > people threw off Communist rule without recourse to war. Yes, but there were many decades where those people were executed, imprisoned or rolled over by tanks if they resisted. I think the advent of TV really helped made a difference in bringing down the Soviet empire. Despite the government's attempts at censorship and control, people were eventually able to get a view into the outside world. They could see the prosperity of much of the rest of the world and realized that they were being fed propaganda all those years that their system was somehow superior. The USSR at some point could not control its (mostly more industrious and prosperous) satellites, nor its own people. Remember toward the end the reports of no one going to work anymore and sitting around drinking vodka all day? Lech Walesa was a brave man and what he started eventually snowballed into mass resistance in the other countries. But it took a long time to evolve. > End the sanctions and swamp them with US goods, > humanitarian aid, commerce, and contacts. Be a friend, > not a bully. I'm all for it if we can find a way to bypass Saddam and his power structure. I'm no expert on Iraq, but do remember reading general interest/travel magazines/National Geographic stories over 20 years ago and way back before I believe Saddam went off the deep end. Maybe the stories I read were propaganda, but they did paint a picture of a thriving, modernized country with many educated people. How awful it must be for those Iraqi people who remember the times when life was normal and prosperous to then have been thrown backward into a sort of dark ages world. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 16:40:43 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: blurb on Wall to Wall Joni Got this from Google News: JONI MITCHELL TRIBUTE "Wall to Wall," the annual day-long free concert celebrating the work of a single artists, will examine the songwriting of Joni Mitchell at New York's Symphony Space March 22. The 12-hour marathon will feature more than 100 performers, including Laurie Anderson, Joan Osborne and the Mingus Big Band. The concert will be presented in association with WFUV, Public Radio from Fordham University, which will broadcast the entire program live, along with a live audio stream on wfuv.org. The 33rd annual Wall to Wall will explore in-depth this extraordinary artist's continuing legacy. Participants are drawn from diverse backgrounds including pop, jazz, classical/new music, international music, cabaret, poetry, as well as the contemporary singer-songwriter scene. The 12-hour presentation is divided into four three-hour segments. Each segment will afford the listener a chance to hear some well-known favorites, like "Circle Game" and "Both Sides Now," as well as music from her less well-known albums such as "Don Juan's Reckless Daughter" and "Night Ride Home." Mitchell's output, 21 albums over 30 years, is widely regarded as one of the most significant and consistent collections of work by an artist of her generation. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.445 / Virus Database: 250 - Release Date: 1/21/03 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 16:43:36 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: New musical featuring Joni songs Ed Begley, Jr. Pens and Directs New Musical Cesar and Ruben in CA By Ernio Hernandez 11 Feb 2003 Actor Ed Begley, Jr. directs the world premiere of his musical celebration Cesar and Ruben at North Hollywood's El Portal Theatre. The debut will play at the California venue March 7-April 6. Cesar and Ruben celebrates the life and work of labor leader Cesar Chavez and the award-winning Los Angeles Times columnist Ruben Salazar, who wrote about him. Chavez was he founder of the United Farm Workers union in 1962. The musical features songs by Ruben Blades, Peter Gabriel, Joni Mitchell, Carlos Santana, Enrigue Iglesias, David Crosby and Carmen Moreno. Steven Orich acts as musical director for the production. Erik Sterling, Jason Winters and Jon Carrasco executive produce with producer Stephen Roseberry. The cast of 15 features Robert Alcazar and Tony D'Arc in the title roles as well as Marta Dubois, Danielle Barbosa and Edward Albert. The world premiere, endorsed by the Chaves family and the Cesar Chavez Foundation is presented in conjunction with Cesar Chavez Day (March 31) and the U.S. Postal Service's release of a Cesar Chavez Stamp on April 23. Begley, Jr. is best known for his performance as an actor in the television series "St. Elsewhere." His film credits include "This Is Spinal Tap," "The Accidental Tourist" and "Transylvania 6-5000." He has also made a number of appearances as recurring characters on TV in "7th Heaven," "Providence" and "Six Feet Under." Tickets to Cesar and Ruben at El Portal Theatre, 5269 Lankershim Blvd. in North Hollywood, CA, can be purchased through Ticketmaster at (213) 480-3232 or online at www.ticketmaster.com. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.445 / Virus Database: 250 - Release Date: 1/21/03 ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #125 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)