From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #120 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, February 16 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 120 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- NJC Latest Stryngs news [Chris Marshall ] Re: change of mind NJC [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: sad day NJC [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: Chomsky homophobic? njc [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: Chomsky njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Chomsky njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: war (njc) [sl.m@shaw.ca] this flight tonight and taylor ham ["Nikki Johnson" ] Re: My Joni Valentine - NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] RE: self-confession njc [sl.m@shaw.ca] RE: feb 12!!!! njc ["Nikki Johnson" ] Re: change of mind NJC [sl.m@shaw.ca] Lhasa Apso links NJC [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: change of mind njc [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: self-confession njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Chomsky (njc) [dsk ] Re: Lhasa Apso links NJC [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: The vinyl verdict ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] Re: Lhasa Apso links NJC [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: Lhasa Apso links NJC [colin ] War question NJC [David Marine ] Re: sad day NJC ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] Re: Lhasa Apso links NJC [sl.m@shaw.ca] taylor ham/flight tonight ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: question NJC [vince ] lyric question 100% JC!! (This Flight Tonight), short ["Jim L'Hommedieu \] Re: War question NJC [sl.m@shaw.ca] re: joni's piano music [Howard ] Re: change of mind NJC [dsk ] re: njc war to go [cul heath ] Re: change of mind NJC [colin ] Re: sad day NJC [colin ] njc call the UN ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] Re: Joni's guitars ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] Re: Joni's guitars/Now with 29 Skaters on Wolman Rink [KJHSF@aol.com] Re: Chomsky (njc) ["kasey simpson" ] online friends NJC [colin ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 18:14:45 +0000 From: Chris Marshall Subject: NJC Latest Stryngs news For those that are interested, a bit more news on our album. We're mixing now, with 8 songs out of 12 done and dusted. The rest should be complete real soon now, and if I can get the artwork sorted in time, we should be in manufacture within about two weeks, with finished shrink-wrapped CDs about two weeks after that. This is so exciting!!! Finally, over a year's work is coming to fruition, and we're all bursting with pride. Can't wait to share the finished thing with you all. Website is below, as usual, with MP3 and Windows Media samples. They're pre-mix, but give a good feel for what we're about nonetheless. Regards, - --Chris Marshall chrisAThatstand.org (AIM: Chr15Marshall) "If you're ever lost, I'll beat the world to finding you" Stryngs, "Bobblehats and Beer" Band website, with downloads, at http://www.stryngs.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 12:58:07 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: change of mind NJC Colin, that was a brave and honest post. For me, one of the worst things about the left opposing this war, is it means not enough people are keeping a close eye on what will happen in Iraq AFTER the war. The Bush administration is torn in two over who to support. The CIA wants to support certain old Iraqi nationals who they have come to trust over the years - this is the "Saddam-lite" version - another dictator, just a bit better than Saddam. The CIA and M16 in the UK, and most of the academic Arabists, say that to hope for a democracy in Iraq is naive, and their views become very racist when you listen to them -- they say Iraqis are primitive, it's a primitive society, they need a brutal dictator to stop the country from sinking into civil war. On the other hand, there is a huge democratic movement in Iraq, led by Ahmed Chalabi of the Iraqi National Congress, based in London. He promises a secular Iraq, with equal representation between all the religious factions, recognition for the Kurds, fair and free elections. He would be the champion of the left, if the left wasn't opposed to war. But because they are, he is left with little support, although I believe the Pentagon now supports him, but when you read the newspapers, it's a case of they support him on Monday, then on Tuesday something is done to undermine him, so it's hard to see what's going on. The point is - the Iraqi people need outside intervention or Saddam will just go on and on, and when he dies, it'll be one of the sons, who are even worse than Saddam. The Iraqi people need to be liberated. I don't know about George Bush's motives. I would think that Tony Blair's motives are honourable (and I don't mean to insult Bush here; I'm just saying I don't know). Tony Blair IS an honourable man, and not a warmonger by any stretch of the imagination. For him, this is a moral crusade. But regardless of motives, this war could achieve so much good and the way they are planning to fight it, it could happen with very little loss of life. I think the war is going to happen now no matter what anyone says or does. In fact, it has started. US and UK aircraft have been heavily bombing anti-aircraft equipment in Iraq for days now. They have dropped millions of leaflets all over southern Iraq, asking people not to fight, and giving them instructions about how to tune their radios so they can hear the Americans speaking directly to them. The leaflets also tell Iraqi that the argets will be military installations, so they should stay away from these as far as possible. I wish the peace movement would turn its attention to something the public really COULD have an effect on - to ensuring that Bush and Blair support the democratic movement in post-war Iraq. Just imagine - a democratic Iraq supporting a democratically elected Palestinian leader, who Israel agrees to deal with, the two sides making concessions, reaching an agreement. Is this naive? Yes, but it is possibly within reach for the first time in the history of the Middle East. A war to liberate the Iraqi people is the first necessary step, but the second necessary step is to install a democratic regime. I would say we need to take seriously two things that Tony Blair said yesterday. He first said, of the peace marchers in London, if there are one million of them there, that is still fewer than the number of people who have died in wars started by Saddam Hussein. And secondly, he said that, if we don't go to war, there will be victims, and thousands of them - that just because we won't see them, because they won't appear on our television screens, does not mean that the no-war option would be bloodless. Sarah At 1:47 PM +0000 02/16/2003, colin wrote: >I HATE the idea of this war. I HATE war.I HATE suffering. I HATE to >see others suffering while the rest of us do nothing. > >This is a sad time and frought with danger. And I think we are >going to have to do what needs to be done. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 13:00:20 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: sad day NJC Colin, if you were to get him neutered, and then find a home for him where there are no dogs or young children? Often the neutering itself works. What kind of dog is he again? Is he a Lhasa Apso? There's a rescue network for Lhasa and shi tzus. I will look it up - don't do anything too soon. Sarah At 1:53 PM +0000 02/16/2003, colin wrote: >It is with great with regret that i have made the desion to put my >dog, Kevin, to sleep. His behaviour is becoming more and more >erratic and dangerous. This morning he nearly killed on of my girls, >Martha, fo no obvious reason. Besides, he shouldn't do it anyway and >it is most unusaul for a male to attack a female like this anyway. >He cannot be trusted with children and he must be kept on a short >tight lead when out because he lunges at people and dogs. >Upon consultation with my vet and a behaviourist, I have come to the >conclusion that he must be put to sleep, i mean killed. Awful and I >so wish there was another way. But there isn't. He can live a very >restricted lfe, spending most of his time in a cage. Or i can pass >the problem on to somoene esle.Niether of these is a good or >honorouble alternative. > >shit > >bw >colin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 13:01:17 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Chomsky homophobic? njc No, not Chomsky - Christopher Hitchens. ;-) Sarah At 9:45 AM -0500 02/16/2003, AzeemAK@aol.com wrote: >This doesn't seem very likely, and would be completely out of keeping with >his liberal views, which are not exactly secret! I seriously doubt he's a >homophobe, especially in the absence of any evidence. > >The quote below, while incomplete and not properly referenced (I couldn't >find the actual citation, although it came up in an article on the subject of >homophobia), seems to ring more true. The point is, even if it's an >inaccurate quotation, I couldn't find any quotes or even credible references >that would support the allegation that he is homophobic. > >"Homophobia inhibits appreciation of other types of diversity, making it >unsafe for ... immigrants and aliens, the more you control all the people.b >-Noam Chomsky ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 14:06:03 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Chomsky njc davidmarine@mindspring.com writes: << Self-confessed IS a word, and was properly used. >> Really? I always thought "self-confessed" was incorrect, or redundant at best. Now if only I had spent more time self-concentrating in school instead of self-masturbating . . . --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 14:12:02 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Chomsky njc Sorry two different versions of my response were posted. AOL kept telling me "The AOL system has not responded." Time for me to self-choose another ISP! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 13:23:21 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: war (njc) But Anne, how do you educate people for democracy while they're living under a dictatorship? The Iraqi National Congress have been preparing for this for years, and they've made good alliances with the Kurdish groups, and with groups representing the shia majority, and they do seem to have support within Iraq. I think it could work. The point about destroying infrastructure - the Americans will be using electromagnetic bombs which destroy computers, phone lines, electrical supplies and car engines. So the point will be to disable to country, without killing people (except of course for Saddam and cronies). They have already released millions of leaflets all over southern Iraq, explaining to the Iraqi people what will happen, and how to protect themselves, and they've set up a radio frequency where Iraqis can tune in and hear directly from the American government. You asked about the troops - the British and Americans have sent in troops because after disabling Iraq as a fighting force, they intend to invade and hold power for, I believe, at least one year. I agree with what you wrote about intentions, but I wouldn't say they don't matter at all, just that they're not the be and end all (which is my argument against the "it's all about oil" position). Iraqi society is not like America before the revolution, where people could take up arms and fight. The oppression inside Iraq is 100 per cent. No-one can speak their mind, no-one can do anything. I think maybe it's hard to understand just what a hell it us. When they're liberated, then we'll hear from them. Until then, we have to trust we can do it, and trust that they're worth it, which I think they are, both in and of themselves, but also because it could have a knock-on effect in the Middle East, and could democratize other movements and governments, and I'm thinking particularly of the Palestinians, another group of people badly in need of (and deserving) democracy. Sarah At 8:20 AM -0800 02/16/2003, anne@sandstrom.com wrote: >Democracy requires education. From what I understand, >the country (Iraq) is not at a point politically or >socially where democracy would succeed. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 14:28:50 -0500 From: "Nikki Johnson" Subject: this flight tonight and taylor ham Well I just wanted to say that I also took this semi-literal...one of Joni's talents is to mix metaphors and create these kind of double meanings where you can take what she says literally and it makes sense or you peel back the shades of meaning and find many more. I think this line from This Flight Tonight is an example of that. And I wanted to commend MG for successfully working Taylor Ham into at least two posts this week ;-) I don't think anyone else would have that talent. Love Nikki np: Patty Griffin - Tomorrow Night Now MG: For a long time, I always view that line as semi-literal and took "falling star" to mean a once famous persona and "Las Vegas Sands" to mean quite literally the Sands Resort in LV. Thus, "I saw a falling star burn up above the LV Sands" hit my head as "above" being the marguee where the headliners are the lead neon names and then there's smaller and smaller print until you see: "And playing in our Taylor's Ham Lounge: Tony Orlando and Dawn." Then again, this is the gal who thought that Brooks Robinson and Frank Robinson of MLB fame were twin brothers......... MG ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 22:04:14 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: This Just In Jazz Fest Schedule (LONG) njc hi >>> paz wrote >>> Here is what we know so far: For a more complete list of what is happening more complete list!!!! isnt that enough??? our prime jazz fest - the north sea jazz fest (i have no idea how they got that name!!) has just announced their line up: Deodato, Isaac Hayes, Osibisa, North Sea Jazz Super Band, Andreas Vollenweider with special guest Pops Mohammed, Jonas Gwangwa, India.Arie, Archie Shepp Quartet feat. Amina Meyers, Marcus Wyatt, John Scofield \berjam, Jabu Kanyile feat. Bayete, Eric Vloeimans, Yusef Lateef, Adam Rudolph Duo with special guest Zim Ngqawana, Mukta, Pieces Of A Dream featuring Gerald Veasley, Allou April, Relax, Herbert, Moses Khumalo, Floetry, Bugge Wesseltoft with special guest John Scofield, The Standard Bank Jazz Orchestra and Andile Yenana. & im waiting & hoping that india arie will be doing a concert up here, as the nsjf headliners normally do, otherwise its a 2,000 mile trek to go see her....... ron np - buddy miller - i'm pretending ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 14:31:21 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: My Joni Valentine - NJC Muller writes: << Bob, very impressed that you ended your note with a Joni record title! >> Well, Bob, my humor has its hits and misses but I am always trying to bring a little smile to this dog eat dog world. Thanks again. --Bob PS: "I did that." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 13:34:00 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: RE: self-confession njc Wally, we would never say a "confessed alcoholic". We'd say "he confessed to being an alcoholic" meaning - he confessed it to someone else (and with this comes a sense of shame, of the confession having been dragged out of him perhaps, and heads hanging low.) But "he's a self-confessed alcoholic" means "he has admitted it to himself", and this has much less of a sense of shame, and possibly none. He confessed it to hiimself (and to us only as a by-product), voluntarily, shamelessly, perhaps even happily or defiantly. Does the confusion stem from the fact that "to confess" can be transitive and intransitive? In the case of "confessed alcoholic" it would be transitive, so it would have to be "confessed-to someone-else alcoholic" or "confessed-to-self alcoholic". Sarah At 6:13 AM -0300 02/16/2003, Wally Kairuz wrote: >but isn't that the definition of *confess* (if we know that someone is a >self-confessed something, then the confession is or has been made public, >not only to oneself, so i find the prefix superfluous). ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 14:39:01 -0500 From: "Nikki Johnson" Subject: RE: feb 12!!!! njc I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who wished me a happy birthday...I have been trying to keep up with the mail and there were a lot of messages. I hope everyone is also doing well. I had a nice laid back birthday and now am sitting here in my annual post-birthday blizzard...lol. Love Nikki np: Patty Griffin ~ Moses -----Original Message----- From: RoseMJoy@aol.com [mailto:RoseMJoy@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 7:58 PM To: michael@thepazgroup.com; humblepi@voicenet.com; joni@smoe.org; NortheastJonifest@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: feb 12!!!! njc Happy belated Birthday Nikki!!!!! We'll celebrate both our birthdays with Cagno on February 27th ;~) For the Northeasters.....Gregg will be playing at Godfrey Daniels coffee house in Bethlehem, PA http://www.godfreydaniels.org/ come join us Thu 8:00 pm gregg cagno An old friend of Godfrey's, Gregg Cagno returns with his laid-back soul and an open-tuned mind and guitar. Gregg is a journeyman acoustic troubadour who has been spreading his grooves, words, melodies and spontaneous stories across North America. Named "Songwriter of the Year" in 2002 by the Courier News, Gregg is joined tonight by his compadre on keyboards Karl Dietel and other special guests. "He's got the groove..." - Tom Prasada-Rao. Better ask questions before you shoot Deceit and betrayal's bitter fruit It's hard to swallow, come time to pay. That taste on your tongue don't easily slip away Let Kingdom come. I'm gonna find my way Through this lonesome day Better ask questions before you shoot Deceit and betrayal's bitter fruit It's hard to swallow, come time to pay. That taste on your tongue don't easily slip away Let Kingdom come. I'm gonna find my way Through this lonesome day ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 13:50:12 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: change of mind NJC There's an article in today's Observer that talks about the democracy issue in post-war Iraq, and it's exactly what everyone has feared - that the Americans are going to screw it up under the influence of the CIA. See http://www.observer.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12239,896611,00.html The article is by an Iraqi democrat, Kanan Makiya, author of the famous "Republic of Fear", the first expose of the torture in Iraq, which he had to publish initially using a false name. He's a great Iraqi thinker, exactly the type of person the American government should be promoting. More on Makiya at http://www.observer.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,714231,00.html, and more on the Iraqi National Congress at http://www.observer.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,684005,00.html. The latter two are written by Nick Cohen, a leading leftwing journalist in the UK who is pro-war and pro-democracy. Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 13:56:38 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Lhasa Apso links NJC Colin, here are two links to organizations that might help. The shih tzu groups usually deal with lhasas too. If I was there, I'd take him myself. Is there anyone on the list in the UK who could look after Colin's dog Kevin until a permanent home can be found? Sarah http://www.lhasarescue.org/ Lhasa Apso rescue UK http://www.bakalo.co.uk/shihtzunewsuk/rescue/ Southern Shih Tzu rescue UK ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 14:13:00 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: change of mind njc Sorry to bombard those of you not interested with links, but for those who are, another two from today's Observer, including another excellent Nick Cohen article on the anti-war movement in the UK, and with a good quote from an Iraqi democrat: "Salih. . . had little time for those who say war should be opposed because 'it's all about oil'. "So what? he asked. 'Iraqis know that their human rights have too often been ignored because Iraqi oil was more important to the world than Iraqi lives. It would be a good irony if at long last oil becomes a cause of our liberation - if this is the case, then so be it. The oil will be a blessing and not the curse that it has been for so long... So to those who say "No War", I say, of course "yes", but we can only have "No War" if there is "No Dictatorship" and "No Genocide".' " Nick Cohen piece called "The Left isn't Listening" at http://www.observer.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12239,896659,00.html and good Observer backgrounder on the CIA and the Iraq democratic movement at http://www.observer.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12239,896778,00.html What will happen if the Bush adminstration is not very careful, is that the Kurds will go their own way, as they've been practising democracy for years and they're not going to go back to dictatorship. If that happens, they'll take the Turkish Kurds with them, then America would have to choose whether to side with Turkey (which it's obliged to do under NATO) or the pro-democract Kurds. Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 15:26:57 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: self-confession njc sl.m@shaw.ca writes: << we would never say a "confessed alcoholic" >> Why not? There's absolutely nothing wrong with that usage of the word. << We'd say "he confessed to being an alcoholic" meaning - he confessed it to someone else (and with this comes a sense of shame, of the confession having been dragged out of him perhaps, and heads hanging low.) >> Who is this "we," and where did they come up with this tie-in to "shame" and "dragged out" admissions and hanging heads in defining this word? To me, a confession always involves at least two parties. So what you call "self-confessed" -- in the sense of confessing something to oneself -- is what I would call acknowledged, avowed, admitted, professed . . . But "self-confessed" is just weird usage as far as I am concerned. "Self-proclaimed" and even "self-acknowledged," "self-avowed," and "self-professed" all make more sense to me. "Self-confessed?" No thanks. I wouldn't use it. Not just because I was taught that it was wrong, either. But because it makes no sense to me. And if it's one of those things that has become acceptable because of constant misuse, what's next? Irregardless? --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 15:47:04 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Chomsky (njc) kasey simpson wrote: > > Debra, > You write opinions all the time based on what people > think and feel. Just recently you wrote about Chaney, > and said it was reported.....by who? Left wing writers? CNN, NBC, ABC, NYTimes, 1010 WINS radio... right-wingers might think of those mainstream sources as left-wing. I don't. Those are the only sources I was listening to after Sept. 11, and I heard that information several times. I deliberately chose not to pay attention to left-wing sources then because I didn't want the thought-provoking challenges I knew I'd find there, not while I was in such mourning and distress. Chomsky's writings are extensive and readily available. Passing off opinions from a right-wing think tank is not the same as telling us what Chomsky wrote. Bottom line is... reader beware. > You say how Kakki passes along bias right wing opinions > as the truth, and yet you do the same thing. People in > glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Geezs! I realize you want to support everything Kakki (and Sarah) have to say, and constantly needle me every chance you get. Both attitudes are a bit simple-minded, don't you think? Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 15:13:39 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Lhasa Apso links NJC Colin, I don't know Kevin, but I'm just wondering about neutering. That can change a dog's personality. I'm supposed I'm saying - please don't give up on him. If I found someone to take him, would you consider it? Sarah At 9:04 PM +0000 02/16/2003, colin wrote: >this is very thoughtful Sarah, but not an option. It was my first >thought. This dog is unstable and cannot be trusted. I have had >problems with him fork when I firts got him He went for me within >the first few days. He knows he can't get a way with it with me. >Howevrer, other people, children and dogs are a different matter. He >would one, be very unlikely to be able find somone who could cope >with him and 2, would live a very restricted life, and 3 would be a >sewrious liabbility and end up being destroyed anyway after more >trauma for him. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 16:16:55 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Re: The vinyl verdict Andrew, I'm am shocked. I am deeply disappointed in your decision to reject vinyl in favor of that upstart CD format. heh heh NOT! I agree with you about the LP cover art though and suggest that you can often pick up a lot of 5 Joni LPs at a time on ebay, for next to nothing- just for the cover art! The current CD players have come a long way. They can now convey the complexity without portraying it as "grit" or white noise. CDs themselves have also come a long way. At least in the USA, all of Joni titles (except for "Both Sides Now" and "Travelogue" I think) are HDCD remasters. "Travelogue" has no trouble at all at recreating a very big and detailed sound within that little 44/16 red book CD specification, probably because the whole chain is using modern digital equipment instead of the early dreck. (At one time I had a CD copy of "Trio" that made Dolly and Emmylou both sound like white noise. The soprano vibrato was just gritty static. The vinyl is better but still not perfect.) I know what you mean about the big sound of "The Hissing Of Summer Lawns". On the big stereo, "Harry's House/Centerpiece", really shines. Lama Andrew said, >>>Having said that, I love the big sound of the big speakers - it's a more dense, heavy sound. I also love the large cover, which is the colour it was intended to be.>>> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 15:23:34 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Lhasa Apso links NJC Colin, my Mary was like that with other dogs, although not children. But dogs, she couldn't stand; in fact, anything not human she couldn't stand. She once chased a swan in Kensington Palace gardens, a huge thing that could have broken Mary in two in a second, and she also chased the military horses that run in Hyde Park - enormous horses. They'd give her a sideways glance full of contempt and the soldiers would be nearly falling off laughing, because Mary was so tiny, but full of life, and she ran after them as fast as she could doing that annoying high-pitched shih tzu howl. When we were on the promenade or beach I always had her off-leash, and she'd check out other dogs (massive alsatians etc) to see whether they were on the lead, and if they were, she started circling them, barking, howling, teeth showing. Sometimes I'd say to the owners (if the dog looked placid) - do me a favour, will you, let your dog briefly off the lead, and when they did, Mary would do a quick about-turn and come howling back to me, stand up on her hind legs, and paw me to pick her up. It used to make all the tourists crack up. But she always loved children. She saw herself as one of them, not one of those four-legged beasts. Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 21:27:21 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Lhasa Apso links NJC i appreciate your concern. this decison has not been taken lightly. both the vet, his breerd, the beahvouirst and myself allt hink we have made the right decision. Finding an other home would just be passing the buck and poor Kevin would be traumatised by the moveand never be able to live a normal life anyway. he is a dangerous dog, not just an inconvenience. I ahve had this happen once before, 12 years ago. I did not put thedog down and I had him neuittred. It made no difference. In fact he still bred bitches whent hey wree season., he maimed another dog, killed a cat and finally bit me me severely. I was did not do the repsobible thing back then and am not about to make the same mistake again. That dog as it turned out, had a brain problem and it seems very likely Kevin does too. Either way, he is dangerous. Dangerous dogs are a danger to themselves and to others. I am just thankful that the litter i was expecting from him didn't materialise. I am very upset about this and I do appreciate your concern but please can you drop it now? All avenues have been explored and as awful as the decison is, it is the right one. sl.m@shaw.ca wrote: > Colin, I don't know Kevin, but I'm just wondering about neutering. > That can change a dog's personality. I'm supposed I'm saying - please > don't give up on him. > > If I found someone to take him, would you consider it? > > Sarah > > > At 9:04 PM +0000 02/16/2003, colin wrote: > >> this is very thoughtful Sarah, but not an option. It was my first >> thought. This dog is unstable and cannot be trusted. I have had >> problems with him fork when I firts got him He went for me within >> the first few days. He knows he can't get a way with it with me. >> Howevrer, other people, children and dogs are a different matter. He >> would one, be very unlikely to be able find somone who could cope >> with him and 2, would live a very restricted life, and 3 would be a >> sewrious liabbility and end up being destroyed anyway after more >> trauma for him. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 13:47:14 -0800 From: David Marine Subject: War question NJC Hey list -- It seems that after the protests, the rhetoric surrounding the coming war is now focused on regime change. I have heard the arguments that if we simply take out Saddam, an equally distasteful despot will emerge from his posse. But how can we know unless we try? I have also heard that we can't "find" Saddam, that he is always on the move. This confuses me (and I admit here that I may be obtuse). Why can't we find him and assasinate him? How did the Vatican representative find him last week? Best, David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 16:52:30 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Re: sad day NJC I'm sorry to hear about this. I hope your dog Kevin's suffering is short and that he left lots of happy pups. Lama np: "Darlington County" from the anthology set. You wrote: >>Upon consultation with my vet and a behaviorist, I have come to the conclusion that he must be put to sleep, i mean killed. Awful and I so wish there was another way. But there isn't. He can live a very restricted life, spending most of his time in a cage. Or i can pass the problem on to somoene esle.Niether of these is a good or honorouble alternative.>> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 15:54:54 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Lhasa Apso links NJC Yes fair enough Colin. I can see it must be very upsetting for you. Sarah At 9:27 PM +0000 02/16/2003, colin wrote: >i appreciate your concern. this decison has not been taken lightly. >both the vet, his breerd, the beahvouirst and myself allt hink we >have made the right decision. Finding an other home would just be >passing the buck and poor Kevin would be traumatised by the moveand >never be able to live a normal life anyway. he is a dangerous dog, >not just an inconvenience. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 18:56:47 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: taylor ham/flight tonight LOL!!! i was thinking about how taylor ham seems to come up whenever MG is going back east!!! as to this flight tonight, i always thought that joni was referring to herself 'burning up' on that plane. she uses the image in lesson in survival too. wallyK, doing all kinds of bad things today, such as drinking coffee, smoking, typing without my contacts on and sitting in a draft. - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Nikki Johnson Enviado el: Domingo, 16 de Febrero de 2003 04:29 p.m. Para: joni@smoe.org; mgval@aol.com Asunto: this flight tonight and taylor ham And I wanted to commend MG for successfully working Taylor Ham into at least two posts this week ;-) I don't think anyone else would have that talent. Love Nikki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 17:00:35 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: question NJC David Marine wrote: >Why can't we find him and assasinate him? How did the >Vatican representative find him last week? > > > We did such a good job finding Bin Laden dead or alive that of course this administration can deliver on any promise, c'mon David, you know that. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 17:00:58 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: lyric question 100% JC!! (This Flight Tonight), short Ain't metaphor grand? Lama np: "Hungry Heart" from the live box set MG said, >>For a long time, I always view that line as semi-literal and took "falling star" to mean a once famous persona and "Las Vegas Sands" to mean quite literally the Sands Resort in LV. Thus, "I saw a falling star burn up above the LV Sands" hit my head as "above" being the marquee where the headliners are the lead neon names and then there's smaller and smaller print until you see: "And playing in our Taylor's Ham Lounge: Tony Orlando and Dawn." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 16:06:14 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: War question NJC David, the problem in Iraq is the Baath Party. They are a pan-Arabist party, operating mainly in Syria and Iraq, secular, ruthless, fascistic, anti-semitic, a bit like the Nazi party - they see Arabs as superior beings to everyone else and want to see a united Arabia, but united under them, not democratic. Everyone in a position of power in Iraq and Syria is a member of the Baath Party. So if we did find a way to assassinate Saddam, another member of the same party would take over, and there would be no change. This is what the democratic movement in Iraq is arguing against - the so-called "Saddam-lite" that the CIA wants. The CIA plan is to remove only the top two officials in all depts. The Iraqi democratic opposition groups say this means the despotism will continue. As for finding Saddam, obviously he'll make himself available to visiting politicians, but I don't think we could persuade a Vatican representative to go in with a machine gun. ;-) And anyway, everyone who visits Saddam no matter how important is subject to security checks to make sure they're not carrying anything that could shorten Il Duce's life. But the point is that it's not just Saddam the West wants to get rid of - it's the whole Tikriti clan of his: the sons, cousins etc. Even supposing you could send in SAS or US Marines to assassinate several score people, you're then left with the problem of how to run the country, because it would fall into anarchy without something to replace these people. Hence - an invasion. Sarah At 1:47 PM -0800 02/16/2003, David Marine wrote: >It seems that after the protests, the rhetoric surrounding the coming war is >now focused on regime change. I have heard the arguments that if we simply >take out Saddam, an equally distasteful despot will emerge from his posse. >But how can we know unless we try? I have also heard that we can't "find" >Saddam, that he is always on the move. This confuses me (and I admit here >that I may be obtuse). Why can't we find him and assasinate him? How did the >Vatican representative find him last week? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 17:54:51 +0000 From: Howard Subject: re: joni's piano music bernard giordano wrote: >Anybody know where to find sheet music (piano)for >these songs: Blue, Two Grey Rooms, Man From Mars, >Rainy Night House,Ethiopia? Songbooks seem to be >unavailable or out-of-print. Any leads will be >appreciated: benwhitley2001@yahoo.com The piano part for Blue is available from www.jmdl.com/guitar search for the song by name, or search for type "piano music". Howard ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 17:57:28 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: change of mind NJC colin wrote: > > I just realised I was being a hypocrite, I wanted nothing to be done > because of my own fear. That shames me. I have always stood and been > counted and exhorted others to do so when it comes to children. Now when > the chips are down, i do not keep my money where my mouth is. It just shows that it's a complex situation, Colin. Your fear for yourself and John, who spends time traveling or in London, doesn't mean you can't also think that mass bombings of Iraqis is unjustified. War advocates want you to believe it's one or the other; if you don't want war you don't want to help the Iraqis, and they use that argument to intimidate and shame people who do not agree with their solution. And to make their black/white thinking even more offensive, then claim the war will be bloodless. My advice, for whatever it's worth to you, is to resist such simplification, recognize this is a complex situation that will evoke many different feelings, and accept that your conflicting feelings are realistic. Rigid, either/or thinking in this situation (as in most situations in my opinion) is not helpful. It keeps other solutions from being found. I was at the peace rally in NYC yesterday and one of my simple thoughts as I looked at all the different signs ("empty warheads found in White House", with pictures of Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld) and different types of people, all ages, all backgrounds, from places throughout the country as well as NYC, and feeling grateful that such a demonstration is allowed in this country, was that everyone in the world ought to have the same right, and the Iraqis (and many others!) do not have that right. What can be done about that? Bombing Iraq still does not seem like an appropriate solution to me. I wonder about the world court in The Hague. Is it necessary that a leader be out of power before the world community can try someone for crimes against humanity? I'd say Saddam's mass murder of the Kurds is clearly such a crime. And if that had been dealt with in 1988 instead of ignored, perhaps the Iraqis would have had a new leader all this time. The world community knows how to deal with a country that invades another country. Somehow the world community has to find a way to stop leaders who kill their own people, a way that doesn't involve wars and bombs and killing those people who are already suffering. Sanctions aren't always the answer since, like bombs, they often end up hurting most the people already suffering, and the despotic leader goes free. How is it that a citizen of any country can be tried for murder, and a leader who's killed thousands never be brought to justice? I don't have any answers. I'm just wondering about possible ways for people in the world eventually to resolve conflicts rather than rely on bombing. And I don't know much about the world court except that the US doesn't back it up or think it's of any value, which isn't the final word for me. As far as immediately removing Saddam, I still think some type of covert action is the way to go, something that pinpoints him specifically, either removing him and his family and henchmen from the country and putting them on trial, or aiding Iraqis in the country in overturning him. War advocates say such aid has already been given. I'm not so sure about that. I think after all the bombing Saddam will still be alive, and a lot of Iraqis will be dead (and NOT shown on American tv). If he is killed by the US, he'll be another martyr for the terrorists. > I also pray that we in the west stop interfering in the ME, which is the > cause of all this in first place. Oh, no, Iraq is just the beginning... Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 14:56:21 -0800 From: cul heath Subject: re: njc war to go sarah wrote: "Hitchens was good during the first Gulf War. He had a brilliant exchange on CNN with Charlton Heston who for some reason had been wheeled out by the Republicans to defend the war. Hitchens said, well if you're going to bomb a country, the least you can do is know where it is. So, he asked Heston, where is Iraq? And then asked him to name all the countries Iraq shares a border with, and of course Heston couldn't do it, and sat there stuttering and going all red-faced with fury, waiting for the camera to be taken off him, but CNN kept filming and Hitchens kept saying: "well, okay, if you can't name them all, name three . . .er, two? . . .one??" I haven't laughed so hard in a long time. Reminded me of Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Thanx for that... cul ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 23:17:36 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: change of mind NJC dsk wrote: >. > >As far as immediately removing Saddam, I still think some type of covert >action is the way to go, something that pinpoints him specifically, >either removing him and his family and henchmen from the country and >putting them on trial, or aiding Iraqis in the country in overturning >him. > It seems to me that this would be done if it were possiblle. thos of ocurse maybe that is not want the West wants..... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 23:20:59 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: sad day NJC Jim L'Hommedieu (Lama) wrote: >I'm sorry to hear about this. I hope your dog Kevin's suffering is short > it will be. it is just an ijection of a drug and he goes to sleep and his heart wills top. painless. >and that he left lots of happy pups. > thank God he hasn't. > >Lama >np: "Darlington County" from the anthology set. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 18:34:52 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: njc call the UN Yes, please, by all means, call the UN and tell them you support the US resolution to restore sane government in Iraq, by force if necessary. I don't understand the timing of the US actions, but if we're ready for action, I'm in. There's no doubt to me that Hussein has committed ethnic cleansing, fired missiles on Israel, and ran over his neighbor, Kuwait. Let's clean up Iraq before this temporary nationalism flickers out, along with our passion for creating sane leadership. Hey, we set the guy up, so who can argue if we invite him out? If we have any guilt over what he's done with the weapons that we sold to him, here's a way to fix a bad situation, giving the Kurds some breathing room. I'd say WE OWE THE KURDS THAT MUCH. Spring cleaning: bring it on. Lama Vince said, >>> Let these governments know that you support the use of the veto to thwart the US push for war. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 19:05:28 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Re: Joni's guitars Huh. I thought these sales were handled by discreet phone calls. I don't know about collectible guitars but I can tell you that, among camera collectors, the experienced people usually don't telegraph their interest, nor their top bid, until the final seconds. I suspect that ebay isn't the right forum for collectors of this uh... social strata. Therefore, I predict that the reserve price (hidden until the end of the auction) will not be met. Unless it is. :) It could be that Rebecca Romaine-Stamos is having a boring week in the Philippines, waiting out a monsoon in a hotel room, and is cruising ebay from a laptop. If someone like that bids $15,000 for it, that might do it. I'll bet $20,000 would do it. I'd make damn sure that no one ever takes the luggage tags or the tablature off it! The neck may be warped from her Martian tunings but then, expecting it to hold a tune is a bit like asking the Queen to hike up her dress to show a bit of leg, isn't it? It just now occurred to me that this is one more scary move from Norma. The writing stops. She agrees to a hits package. The first-ever sequel. She says "yes" to a documentary. She sells some guitars. Did you see in the ad that "she's asked Fred to sell this guitar ***AND SEVERAL OTHERS*** for her." This is not... good. Not good at all. Lama Paul (@anglesnet.com) wrote > You can find her Ibanez George Benson, complete with tablature, at: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2508437444. > Bob S. said I have never bought anything on e-bay, and am not a collector. But this guitar has to be pretty much way up there on a JM fan/collector's wish list. Can anyone out there give me some idea of how this "usually" works on e-bay (i.e., when do the serious bids typically come in ?) and if there are any collectors out there, what kind of order of magnitude (i.e., multiple of market price for a random guitar of the same make) might be expected at the end of the day? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 19:34:35 EST From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's guitars/Now with 29 Skaters on Wolman Rink In a message dated 2/16/2003 7:07:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, jlamadoo@fuse.net writes: > Did you see in the ad that "she's asked Fred to sell this guitar ***AND > SEVERAL OTHERS*** for her." > This is not... good. Not good at all. > I thought that in the initial reporting of the sale of her guitars, it was said that she was getting rid of these old instruments and was purchasing new guitars. Did I imagine this? Have I been erroneously imagining that Joni was returning to the acoustic guitar for another round? Also, there was a segment about Wolman Rink on the Discovery Channel Today. Apparently, it was closed in 1980 for a 12 million dollar renovation. Six years later, with the money spent, the city of New York had not completed the project, and the work that had been done was a shoddy mess. Donald Trump stepped in and brokered a deal to complete the project for 3 million. The planned 4 month renovation was completed in 3 months and under budget at 2.25 million! He owns the rink concession rights, but donates those profits to charity. He said he took on the project so that his children would be able to enjoy the fun of ice skating before they got too old. Wonder if Joni ever skates there when she's in NYC. Ken np:that real, real quiet it gets when you've been blessed with 10 inches of newly fallen snow whoo-hoo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 20:52:53 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Re: Chomsky (njc) CNN, NBC, ABC, NYTimes, 1010 WINS radio... right-wingers might think of those mainstream sources as left-wing. I don't. Those are the only sources I was listening to after Sept. 11, and I heard that information several times. I deliberately chose not to pay attention to left-wing sources then because I didn't want the thought-provoking challenges I knew I'd find there, not while I was in such mourning and distress. I watched these also, and I don't remember them saying that Chaney was thinking about getting the oil from Iraq. That is what you said. Chomsky's writings are extensive and readily available. Passing off opinions from a right-wing think tank is not the same as telling us what Chomsky wrote. Bottom line is... reader beware. I believe Kakki said she had read some of his works. I realize you want to support everything Kakki (and Sarah) have to say, and constantly needle me every chance you get. Both attitudes are a bit simple-minded, don't you think? See again you assume. You realize nothing. Mind reading again? I do agree with Kakki, and Sarah on many things, not all. I wasn't trying to support Kakki as much as I was trying to hold up a looking glass for you. You are doing much of what you accuse others of. KaseyGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 02:15:56 +0000 From: colin Subject: online friends NJC The net really is a great place. An hour or so ago, laying on my couch listening/wathcing Susan Sarandon talking about the war, i suddenly started to experience pain in my arms and chest. So I wlaked upstairs to see if it got worse. the pain didnt but then i started to feel nauseous. By this time, I was also feeling very frightened and my bowells went on me. This is it I thought. I then went downsstairs and by this time i was panicing. Instead of calling for help, i got on the phone to my friend in NJ who is an md and a grandmother. Once she got over her disappointment that the havey breather was not an admirier, she relaised it was me and talked me down. Being an md she has seen lots of heart attacks and panics too. and I met this lady on the net! We share a comkmon interest or obsssion, whatever you like to call it. I haven't had one of these attacks since I left London and this one really took me by surprise.It started differently-very differentyl. The reason for the arm and chest pains was that I had been hyperventilaiting for a while, whilst watching Susan, without me even being aware of it! know why,i ahve done my usual of shtuting down when faced with somthing painful. Anyway, the hyperventilaiting cause the blood gases to get wonky and bob your uncle, you are feelign ill and your bRAIN starts to fog and your thinking goes haywire. Sounds so simple in writing but i can ssure you not so simple when in the midst of it. And then of course there was this new body aroma I had suddnely acquired which I then had to deal with. yuk. I hate to admit this , but in common with manymen, i find it ver diffiuclt to let go and cry. thus I get this instaed. or at elast that is one of the reasons. But htreimprtnat thing, is that this the first in 4 years and the net is the nmber 1 reason. seriously. An amzing source of info. An amazing tolol for communictaion. An amazing 'friend' service. i know people, and know them well, all over the planet. Many i have spoken to and met. and now I even have my own perosnal physician for free! And I get to watch blood sports most days on the JMDL. What could be more fun and more cheap than that? John called, and he says Miniapolis is still fucking cold. (no i didn't fill him in on home life) of course, the down side is having my fiends live in this 17" space. Upside is being able to shut you up by flicking a switch! ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #120 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)