From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #118 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, February 16 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 118 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: war njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Chomsky njc [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: war njc [colin ] Re: war njc [colin ] miniapolis njc [colin ] RE: war (njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: war (njc) ["kakki" ] Re: war (njc) ["kakki" ] RE: war (njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] Chart success ["Paul Headon" ] NJC "10 cc said it" [Freddyb4@aol.com] RE: war (njc) [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: Chomsky njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Chomsky njc [David Marine ] No Juno for Joni [Little Bird ] The vinyl verdict [Little Bird ] Re: Give Peace a Chantz njc ["kakki" ] Re: war (njc) ["kakki" ] RE: self-confession njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: self-confession njc ["kakki" ] RE: NJC feb 16!!!!!! ["Wally Kairuz" ] Today in History: February 16 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Today's Library Links: February 16 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] apology njc ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: NJC feb 16!!!!! [Susan Guzzi ] Re: self-confession njc [David Marine ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 19:10:16 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: war njc Colin writes: << Have never seen you be rude on list. >> Thanks, Colin, but maybe you should check with Muller or the late Princess Margaret! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 18:17:58 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Chomsky njc Yes, Colin, that's Christopher Hitchens. He's a self-confessed homophobe - makes frequent reference to "faggots" etc. He used to be regarded as left, but has moved to the right of late, and now denounces the left because of their anti-war stance. Sarah At 11:53 PM +0000 02/15/2003, colin wrote: I think we aretalking about the same guy-quite tall, plummy voice, not blessed int he look depratmetn. Rampant homophobe, appears on tv quite often. Hvaenever heard him say anything I'd think of as left. But then i don't know my left from my right anyhow! Ijust know what i think seems right or wrong. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 00:40:34 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: war njc Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: >Colin writes: > ><< Have never seen you be rude on list. >> > >Thanks, Colin, but maybe you should check with Muller > i thought you too were just bantering. > or the late Princess >Margaret! > and we are all allowed an error aren't we? > > --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 01:00:07 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: war njc colin wrote: > >> >> > i thought you too were just bantering. or even you two..... > >> or the late Princess Margaret! >> > and we are all allowed an error aren't we? > >> >> --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 01:12:57 +0000 From: colin Subject: miniapolis njc i can go to bed now. john just called. he arrived safely. ia sked him what miniapolis was like. 'fucking cold' he replied. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 17:22:11 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: war (njc) kakki >>I don't want others to feel that everything and everyone in their government is so evil. I don't want them consumed with such negativity every day.<< what the h@#$ is the above sentence referring to? i apologize for loosing my patience but i am baffled as to who the "others" are that you are referring to- people here that have expressed their dissent with our (usa) government?...no one here has used such elementary words to explain their point of view & i am amazed that you continue to interpret the views of people who dissent in such offensive terms... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world, indeed it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 17:26:27 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: war (njc) Mary wrote > "Nihilists with an agenda"? Exactly who are you talking about, Kakki? If > it's leftists in general, most of them I know have as their purpose not > annihilation of anything for its own sake, but rather, restructuring and > starting again, with different and (from their point of view) better goals. > I'm just not sure who or what you're referencing. I'm not referring to leftists in general nor to anyone on the list. I would not get involved in a discussion here if I felt like attacking someone personally. I think there are people in this world who you can characterize as nihilistic, in that they want to tear down, by any means possible, that with which they disagree. What if I quoted someone here on something I supported, such as tax reform? What if the person I quoted was a grand wizard in the KKK? I would totally expect to hear a few voices here wondering where I was coming from. And if I did not know before that I was quoting someone from the KKK, I would certainly acknowledge others' valid and most likely strong reactions and disavow myself from person I quoted. > And who said "everything and everyone is [our] government is so evil?" First > of all, if that's true, then we should be talking about it, Pollyanna-ism be > damned. But I'm not hearing that from anyone on this list. Probably poorly stated by me and my point was lost. > It does seem to me that you brand EVERY attempt to criticize the > U.S. as "anti-American." I think I have only used that term here twice in the past couple of years to refer to articles being posted which were written by people who everything I read from them is, in my perception, unfairly critical and often slanderous, toward the U.S. You can break it down and say "but they are not criticizing the American people, but rather it's government." But where does one draw the line at some point? I don't want to get into the whole election debate again, but the U.S. is a democratic representative republic. The people in government who make policies have been elected by a representative majority. American people have the freedom to vote out representatives, impeach them, protest them, file lawsuits against them, etc. To hear people from other countries attack U.S. actions or policies and then say they are not attacking the American people does not end up being entirely true, unless they assume that American people are so ignorant to have voted for the people who represent them. What if I sent articles to the list on a regular basis that were virulently critical of, for example, President Chirac or Prime Minister Chretien and everyone in their political parties? And then I said "but this does not make me anti-French or anti Canadian." I have a feeling that at some point the French or Canadian listers here would start getting a bit irate about it. Afterall, at some point it's their country and I am indirectly criticizing them for their choices in who they vote in to represent them. And then when they got irate, I and a few others would start attacking them back, saying they have no right to be upset. The point is, if someone wants to present volatile material on the list, it is very oppressive to say that people who disagree with it or become upset with it are out of line. I hope this clarifies where I am coming from. As for the accusation that I cannot bear to hear anyone disagreeing with me. That's silly. Why would I subject myself to discussions here with so many who do if I couldn't bear it. I actually have enjoyed very much having discussions here with people whose perspective is quite different from mine, especially Randy, and often Mike. Kakki . ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 17:30:11 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: war (njc) Kate, I have nothing left to explain any longer. I'm sorry you attribute such motives to what I have said - they are not meant against you or those who dissent. It seems that I am unable to clarify what I mean to some people's satisfaction. That makes me feel that nothing I can say will help matters. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 17:42:30 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: war (njc) kakki>> I have nothing left to explain any longer. I'm sorry you attribute such motives to what I have said - they are not meant against you or those who dissent. It seems that I am unable to clarify what I mean to some people's satisfaction. That makes me feel that nothing I can say will help matters.<< okay i'm more baffled than ever...what motives have i attributed to you? here's the conversation: kakki >>I don't want others to feel that everything and everyone in their government is so evil. I don't want them consumed with such negativity every day.<< kate's response>>what the h@#$ is the above sentence referring to? i apologize for loosing my patience but i am baffled as to who the "others" are that you are referring to- people here that have expressed their dissent with our (usa) government?...no one here has used such elementary words to explain their point of view & i am amazed that you continue to interpret the views of people who dissent in such offensive terms...<< ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 01:42:02 -0000 From: "Paul Headon" Subject: Chart success Hi Joni Big Yellow Taxi enters the UK singles chart at No. 16 . You can't keep a good song down it seems :-) Best wishes, Paul Headon Wales - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.455 / Virus Database: 255 - Release Date: 13/02/2003 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 20:53:37 EST From: Freddyb4@aol.com Subject: NJC "10 cc said it" OK 10cc are singing about love but it could be politics, which at any time can become a love / hate relationship, we all have choices to make in life, some we will regret, but we should not dwell on these, just learn and move on (to our next mistake) and be happy that at least we had a choice. Watching TV last week there was a young reporter making a series called "The Axis of Evil" posing as a Holiday maker he visited North Korea and Iraq, in both Countries his minders were wonderful, but you can see in their eyes the pain of having to live a lie, the smiles and the embarassment as they avoid difficult questions. In the end people, are people, are people..... All they want is to be able to live a simple life and be free to talk, laugh, and smile, as freely as we can, but they are forced to live in fear, and that makes me angry. So those of us who are opposed to War, what can we do to help these people, or is it not our problem, is it just a case of time will bring the changes, thousands of young men who today would be my age died in Vietnam, now more than 25 years on people go there on holiday. So is that the answer, wait for change, even if it means several generations of people will have to continue to suffer and live in fear. So we as individuals will state our case, each Country will make a choice about war, and what will be, will be. But we must "Agree to disagree" and remain friends, to disband NATO or ignore the United Nations, would only tell the Saddams of this World that they can carry on. Ok the US may take out Saddam, but there will be others, and remaining united, by holding back now, can only help us in the future The Things We Do For Love 10cc (Deceptive Bends) Too many broken hearts have fallen down the river Too many lonely souls have drifted out to sea You lay your bets and then you pay the price The things we do for love (the things we do for love) Communication is the problem to the answer Youbve got her number and your hand is on the phone The weatherbs turned and all the lines our down The things we do for love (the things we do for love) ALL TOGETHER !!! Like walking in the rain and snow When therebs nowhere to go And youbre feeling like a part of you is dying And youbre looking for the answer in her eyes You think you wanna break up Then she says she wants to make up Ooh, you make me love you Ooh, youbve got a way Ooh, youbve had me crawling up the wall (solo) Like walking in the rain and snow When therebs nowhere to go And youbre feeling like a part of you is dying And youbre looking for the answer in her eyes You think you wanna break up Then she says she wants to make up Ooh, you make me love you Ooh, youbve got a way Ooh, youbve had me crawling up the wall A compromise would surely help the situation Agree to disagree, but disagree to part Well after all itbs just a compromise For the things we do for love (the things we do for love) the things we do for love (the things we do for love) the things we do for love (the things we do for love) (fade out) And off to bed FRED ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 20:03:11 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: RE: war (njc) The motives you attributed to Kakki were contained in your accusation that she continues "to interpret the views of people who dissent in such offensive terms . . . " I believe she has replied that she has no such motive, and that she is sorry you see things that way, and that her words are not meant as attacks against anyone. Pretty clear, I would say. Sarah At 5:42 PM -0800 02/15/2003, Kate Bennett wrote: >kakki>> >I have nothing left to explain any longer. I'm sorry you attribute such >motives to what I have said - they are not meant against you or those who >dissent. It seems that I am unable to clarify what I mean to some people's >satisfaction. That makes me feel that nothing I can say will help >matters.<< > >okay i'm more baffled than ever...what motives have i attributed to you? >here's the conversation: > >kakki >>I don't want others to feel that everything and everyone in their >government is so evil. I don't want them consumed with such negativity >every day.<< > >kate's response>>what the h@#$ is the above sentence referring to? i >apologize for loosing my patience but i am baffled as to who the "others" >are that you are referring to- people here that have expressed their dissent >with our (usa) government?...no one here has used such elementary words to >explain their point of view & i am amazed that you continue to interpret the >views of people who dissent in such offensive terms...<< ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 22:37:51 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Chomsky njc Sarah writes: << He's a self-confessed homophobe >> That's it . . . I have done my best to stay out of the latest political poop pile, but I can't maintain my silence with this "self-confessed" business. Has there ever been a confession that wasn't "self-confessed?" The word to use is "confessed," as in "He's a *confessed* homophobe." Why can't the English speak English? ;-) --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 20:20:47 -0800 From: David Marine Subject: Re: Chomsky njc Self-confessed IS a word, and was properly used. on 2/15/03 7:37 PM, Murphycopy@aol.com at Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: > Sarah writes: > > << He's a self-confessed homophobe >> > > That's it . . . I have done my best to stay out of the latest political poop > pile, but I can't maintain my silence with this "self-confessed" business. > Has there ever been a confession that wasn't "self-confessed?" The word to > use is "confessed," as in "He's a *confessed* homophobe." > > Why can't the English speak English? ;-) > > --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 20:59:11 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: No Juno for Joni Joni was not nominated for a Juno Award (Canadian equivalent of the Grammy Awards) this year, although I'm happy to say that Diana Krall was nominated for best jazz vocal album for Live In Paris. This one definitely sizzles! - -Andrew Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 21:20:10 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: The vinyl verdict Andrew's verdict is in and The Hissing of Summer Lawns on vinyl doens't measure up, on a sonic level, to the album on CD. I find the record too hissy (pardon the pun) and a lot of the subtlety of sound is lost. I also find some of the little pops and crackles distracting. Having said that, I love the big sound of the big speakers - it's a more dense, heavy sound. I also love the large cover, which is the colour it was intended to be. The CD jacket is a bit more washed out. So, I'm afraid I won't be rushing out to buy Joni's work on vinyl, as much as I love the nostalgia of it all. - -Andrew Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 21:43:00 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Give Peace a Chantz njc Hey Randy, Thanks for you post. I'm sorry if I ever made you feel that I felt you were anti-American for opposing the war. Geez, that would be a totally ridiculous stance for me to take. Any remarks I've made come from a larger perception - coming from larger outside sources in the world. I'm just seeking the truth like everyone else and trying to add my two cents. I'd much rather have a fruitful exchange of ideas than shut people down here with personal or implied name-calling. If I stand up for my country or my government or Bush or whoever, I'm not doing it to put someone else here down. Hey, and some have come at me here a few times with snide remarks about "patriotism" and "flag-waving" so there you go. I give people here a lot of credit for being intelligent and vocal. I take that to mean that we can disagree on issues strongly without being demonised or wedged into a box. I've certainly enjoyed my exchanges with you and am grateful that you have always been open in your responses and cool about it. Kakki . ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 22:14:17 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: war (njc) Susan wrote: >Who are you Kakki to save the world from it's own consciousness? You fancy yourself as a "Pollyanna" - and imply >that those against a war, display negativity, while those for one ... are what optimistic, hopeful, positive? You can't see what I meant and choose to personalize it. I was trying to defend where I am coming from since Mary was questioning me. When you have posted often about your motivations being love and peace and understanding, have I or others ever leapt out at you with outrage and said "who are you to accuse us who disagree with you of being hateful, warmonging peace-destroyers?" That would be off the chart now, wouldn't it? Not to assume to speak for you, but I think I can guess you would be baffled and feel very shut down by such a reaction. > How dare anyone imply that I am anti-American. For the 50th or so time, I do not think you or anyone else here protesting a war are anti-American. What I would consider anti-American sentiment would NOT be related Americans here dissenting war. Now if Osama himself was on here ranting "death to America," I would not feel it was improper to make the charge against him. Also certain journalists or writers or politicos at large in the world who have had a long-standing concerted opposition against America are, IMO, fair game for my dissent against them. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 03:27:18 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: self-confession njc i disagree. it is misusage. how can one confess something if one doesn't confess it oneself? can someone confess something for someone else? wallyK, wondering whether this chomsky person everybody's talking about is the famous linguist whose books i had to study in my youth. - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de David Marine Enviado el: Domingo, 16 de Febrero de 2003 01:21 a.m. Para: Murphycopy@aol.com CC: joni@smoe.org Asunto: Re: Chomsky njc Self-confessed IS a word, and was properly used. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 22:30:55 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: self-confession njc > wallyK, wondering whether this chomsky person everybody's talking about is > the famous linguist whose books i had to study in my youth. Yes, he is and I actually agree totally with his linguistic theories! I am sorry to hear about Hitchens being a self-confessed, confessed or professed homophobe. I did not know that. Just when I was enjoying my small crush on him. Damn. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 03:38:55 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: NJC feb 16!!!!!! happy birthday, Cindy!!!! see you in august, wonder girl! love, wally ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 02:01:51 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: February 16 1966: Chuck and Joni Mitchell perform at the Chess Mate in Detroit. 1972: Joni performed in Seattle 1974: Joni performed at the Spectrum in Philadelphia 1976: Joni performed at the Spectrum in Philadelphia - ---- For a comprehensive reference to Joni's appearances, consult Joni Mitchell ~ A Chronology of Appearances: http://www.jonimitchell.com/appearances.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 02:01:51 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: February 16 On February 16 the following items were published: 2000: "Both Sides Now" - Rolling Stone (Review - Album) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=444 2000: "Mitchell Jazz CD Drips with Finesse" - Orange County Register (Review - Album) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=457 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 23:49:07 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: apology njc i offer my sincere apologies to all, for contributing to the disharmony of these last few days...there is anger in me that i have better ways of expressing... so, to anyone here who has felt its sting i offer my humble apologies ( can i blaim my scorpio moon & ascendent for these moments wally?) i'm gonna take a little break from these discussions, maybe i will see what it's like over on bob's island...& when i feel i can offer something of harmony rather than discord then i will return...cuz what the world needs now is love sweet love.... may peace be in all our hearts...kate ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com ******************************************** "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world, indeed it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 23:48:56 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: RE: NJC feb 16!!!!! Happy Birthday to our lil' Cindy! Hoping you have plenty to cackle about on your special day. Much love and wishing you all the best my dear friend! Be as bad as you want to be girl! Peace Susan - --- Wally Kairuz wrote: > > happy birthday, Cindy!!!! > see you in august, wonder girl! > love, > wally Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 00:00:42 -0800 From: David Marine Subject: Re: self-confession njc OK Wally -- I actually appreciate having my mind taken off the war thread with all its gravitas. Your logic is sound and I have been unable to find an on-line dictionary that expalins how the admittedly awkward word came to be accepted. All I am saying is that if a word is in the dictionary, one should feel free to use it. I would argue that one should feel equally free to use words not in the dictionary, but that is another thread... Best, David on 2/15/03 10:27 PM, Wally Kairuz at wallykai@fibertel.com.ar wrote: > i disagree. it is misusage. how can one confess something if one doesn't > confess it oneself? can someone confess something for someone else? > wallyK, wondering whether this chomsky person everybody's talking about is > the famous linguist whose books i had to study in my youth. > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de David > Marine > Enviado el: Domingo, 16 de Febrero de 2003 01:21 a.m. > Para: Murphycopy@aol.com > CC: joni@smoe.org > Asunto: Re: Chomsky njc > > > Self-confessed IS a word, and was properly used. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #118 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)