From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #117 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, February 15 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 117 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: Chomsky (njc)/diversity ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Chomsky (njc)/diversity ["kakki" ] Re: war (njc) ["kakki" ] RE: Chomsky (njc)/diversity ["Kate Bennett" ] criticism - NJC [David Marine ] Re: war (njc) [colin ] Re: war (njc) ["kakki" ] Chomsky njc [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Chomsky (njc) ["kasey simpson" ] Re: criticism - NJC ["kasey simpson" ] NJC affirmation [vince ] Re: NJC affirmation ["kasey simpson" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #113 - Cincinnati show [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: gage [vince ] Re: NJC Re: SJC Our Musical tastes, Van in particular [waytoblu ] Re: Chomsky njc [colin ] Re: Chomsky njc [colin ] Re: NJC affirmation [David Sadowski ] Re: NJC affirmation [vince ] RE: war (njc) ["Mary E. Pitassi" ] Re: How does Joni's music affect you? [Chris Marshall ] RE: lyric question, 100% jc :) ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] Re: war njc [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: njc [vince ] Re: njc [vince ] Personal Attacks (NJC) [Michael Paz ] Give Peace a Chantz njc [Randy Remote ] Re: Give Peace a Chantz njc [sl.m@shaw.ca] My Joni Valentine - NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: war njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] NJC Our Musical tastes, Van in particular ["Blair Fraipont" ] Re: Chomsky njc [colin ] attacking njc [colin ] attacking njc [colin ] NJC Re: How does Joni's music affect you? ["Stephen Toogood" Subject: RE: Chomsky (njc)/diversity i disagree... how on earth can anyone claim to know how 'most americans' think? this is what offends me greatly... my point had nothing whatsoever to do with chomsky (whom i do not know enough about to speak about) so perhaps it is unfortunate that the subject of this thread has his name... the incredible diversity of our country, to me, is one of our countries greatest assets... by no stretch of the imagination can you or anyone else speak for 'most' americans...there is no such consensus... you & i can only speak for ourselves... kakki >>I don't think you should take offense. I think I have a general enough idea of how most Americans would react<< ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 00:42:15 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Chomsky (njc)/diversity Kate, I respect your point. My original point did have to do specifically with Chomsky. I'm sorry that I had such a strong reaction to him and Mike's post. Chomsky was someone I read right after 9/11 whose words hurt me in the worst way. I hope you can cut me some slack on this one and try to bear with my original context in which I wrote. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 00:46:32 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: war (njc) colin asked: > The fact she a Dr with Govt connections does not give her any credence. Where is she from? > If from the uSA, where esle does she have allegience to? She was Clinton's adviser on Middle East terrorism and Iraq for the entire 8 years, I believe. She was stating the Saddam/Al Queda connection long before Bush ever came into office. CIA reports during Clinton's time made the same connection. That was my only point - the idea did not arise for the first time with Bush. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 00:57:51 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Chomsky (njc)/diversity thank you kakki, i am happy to cut you some slack if you will be sure to speak for only yourself in the future...in my view, your own opinions are always welcome as long as you do not profess to speak for the general population...what i find amazing & enlightening about this list is the many differing points of view on so many topics... there are a few things that really push my buttons big time & one of them is any one person (& i don't care who they are) who claims to speak on behalf of 'americans'...i hear some of our politicians do this & it makes me absolutely irate... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world, indeed it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 01:03:51 -0800 From: David Marine Subject: criticism - NJC Hey list -- Kakki had been vocal in her general support of Bush and our system. She is sort of like the Ayn Rand of the list. I think she is smart and informed, even when I don't agree with her, and have never had the sense that she put down others as anti-American. She could not have been more fair-minded during our Reagan/HIV exchange. I value Kkakki's opinions and hope, like mack, that she keeps posting (however wrong, or right, she may be)! David patrick leader at pleader@nyc.rr.com wrote: > every single thread in > which a jmdler says anything negative about our current president eventually > draws a comment from kathryn about anti-americanism on the list. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 09:46:53 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: war (njc) kakki wrote: >> >> >Where is she from? > > >>If from the uSA, where esle does she have allegience to? >> this doesn't answer my questions tho i thank you for the added info. >> >> > >She was Clinton's adviser on Middle East terrorism and Iraq for the entire 8 >years, I believe. She was stating the Saddam/Al Queda connection long before >Bush ever came into office. CIA reports during Clinton's time made the same >connection. That was my only point - the idea did not arise for the first >time with Bush. > >Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 02:18:04 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: war (njc) Sorry colin, I'm pretty sure she is from the US. I've seen her on TV and she seems very American. I don't know what you mean by her other allegiances. She has mainly worked as a professor in U.S. universities and as an advisor to Clinton and the U.S. Dept. of Defense as an expert on middle east terrorism. Here's a bio I found (although it doesn't give all that much info) http://www.benadorassociates.com/mylroie.php >>If from the uSA, where esle does she have allegience to? > >> > this doesn't answer my questions tho i thank you for the added info. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 06:34:52 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Chomsky njc A lot of accusations have been flung at Chomsky, about his supposed dismissing of the atrocities committed by the Khmer Rouge. Needless to say, these accusations are flawed at best and outright lies at worst. Chomsky has always been pilloried for having the temerity to point out the iniquities of a lot of his country's foreign policy, leading to the ludicrous tag of "Anti-American". It's bullshit. I oppose key elements of my country's foreign policy (not to mention their domestic policy). Does this make me anti-British? Duh! For an exhaustive rebuttal of these serious allegations against Chomsky, you could go to http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/ and then do a search on Khmer Rouge. It's the first article that comes up, entitled "The Chorus and Cassandra", Christopher Hitchens. Hitchens is undoubtedly a man of the left, but he is also a professional iconoclast, who has repeatedly heaped scorn on Bill Clinton and other nominally left-wing figures, as well as mocking anti-war protesters. He is nobody's idea of a Chomsky cheer leader. He is ferociously devoted to research, as you will see. Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 07:58:56 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Re: Chomsky (njc) Debra, You write opinions all the time based on what people think and feel. Just recently you wrote about Chaney, and said it was reported.....by who? Left wing writers? You say how Kakki passes along bias right wing opinions as the truth, and yet you do the same thing. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Geezs! Kasey Kakki, Where are you getting these quotes from? From your previous message where you said, "I cannot think of any enlightenment I would personally get from reading him", and your implication that he's a communist (really? a citizen of North Korea, Vietnam, Cuba or China?), and this one full of descriptions of Chomsky's supposed opinions rather than his actual words, my guess is that your information is filtered through right-wing writers. I suggest you go to the source and form your own opinions before you start tossing information around. It is completely dishonest of you to present his or anyone's views in this way. Since I have never read Chomsky's writings and don't know if I'd agree with him, the issue isn't about him. It's about once again passing along biased right-wing opinions as though you're presenting the truth. And, no, I absolutely do not like the idea of you speaking for anyone other than yourself. If you feel the need to include all Americans or all average Americans, whoever you consider them to be, to bolster some of your arguments, perhaps the more appropriate action would be to reconsider some of those arguments you feel so shaky about. And whether someone takes offense or not really isn't for you to decide. I do not want you speaking for me. I cringe at the thought, so please limit your opinions to what you know about and don't drag other people into them. Thank you. Debra Shea kakki wrote: > > Kate wrote: > > > i respond because this is an international list...i take offense at the > > notion that any one of us can presume to speak for the majority, most or > the > > average american... there is no 'average' american > > I don't think you should take offense. I think I have a general enough idea > of how most Americans would react to Chomsky's view to make the leap of > assumption. Perhaps many here and in other rarefied circles would agree > with him completely, but I stick with my opinion that outside such circles, > there would not be agreement with him. Here are just a few of his > viewpoints and you can tell me if he represents views that many, not only a > lot of Americans, would not consider offensive: > > "The Khmer Rouge? Back in 1977, Chomsky dismissed accounts of the Cambodian > genocide ... > > "The Chomskian rage hasn't confined itself to his native land. ... > > "That brings us to 9/11, an egregious insult to decency in general and to > the citizens of New York in particular. True to form, in one of the > interviews, Chomsky calls the United States "a leading terrorist state" ...Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 08:01:21 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Re: criticism - NJC Patrick, It probably isn't clear to Kakki because she doesn't do this. Kasey i repeat. people that you disagree with, you call anti-american. over and over again. that's wrong. i don't care whether you agree with chomsky or anyone else, i just want you to stop calling people anti-american for disagreeing with you. is that clear enough for you kakki? patrickGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 08:04:07 -0500 From: vince Subject: NJC affirmation On a White Sox list to which I belong, we have been disagreeing most vehemently with one another on the Iraq North Korea Bush as cowboy shoot from the hip threat to US security and freedom issues - and it has been helpful in the midst of very passionate tensions to affirm that we are friends and White Sox fans first and foremost and that all disagreements however heated and intense are reflections of the grave issues confronting us all - but that we are first and foremost friends with a common interest and we will not let our very deep disagreements on other things divide us or wreck our friendships - I think it has been good to touch base with that sentiment periodically, it has helped to place things in perspective in the midst of our disagreements - strong words and emotions in the times when we have deep and serious issues that confront us, life and death issues such as war and injustice, may not be avoided - but losing touch of human connectedness as friends in these times is to lose purpose of caring for peace and humanity to begin with - just my thought - everyone who has posted the past couple of days, I want to affirm your value to me and I wish we could have gathering right now where we could hug each other and remember that which binds us as opposed to that on which we disagree so that we can disagree however vehemently without losing each other in our emotions or in our lives Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 08:06:50 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Re: NJC affirmation Vince, Though we disagree a lot, this is beautiful. Thanks, Kasey On a White Sox list to which I belong, we have been disagreeing most vehemently with one another on the Iraq North Korea Bush as cowboy shoot from the hip threat to US security and freedom issues - and it has been helpful in the midst of very passionate tensions to affirm that we are friends and White Sox fans first and foremost and that all disagreements however heated and intense are reflections of the grave issues confronting us all - but that we are first and foremost friends with a common interest and we will not let our very deep disagreements on other things divide us or wreck our friendships - I think it has been good to touch base with that sentiment periodically, it has helped to place things in perspective in the midst of our disagreements - strong words and emotions in the times when we have deep and serious issues that confront us, life and death issues such as war and injustice, may not be avoided - but losing touch of human connectedness as friends in these times is to lose purpose of caring for peace and humanity to begin with - just my thought - everyone who has posted the past couple of days, I want to affirm your value to me and I wish we could have gathering right now where we could hug each other and remember that which binds us as opposed to that on which we disagree so that we can disagree however vehemently without losing each other in our emotions or in our lives VinceGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 08:27:45 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #113 - Cincinnati show In a message dated 2/15/2003 2:45:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, BRYAN8847@aol.com writes: > What was missing was warmth and words from Joni, > and I think people really missed that whether they realized it or not. > Thanks, Bryan...I know what you mean too. Like I said I watched the video that has Joni in her "pink dress" performance, and the thing that stands out is how she's just GLOWING and has this constant smile. The next portion is The Old Grey Whistle Test which shows her playing with Scott & Co. in The New Victoria Theatre in '74, and she's so solemn and has that downturned mouth...you'd think it was 2 different performers. I'm sure there were a lot of factors, pure fatigue not being the least of them. When I sit back and re-cap what Joni did from 68-79 (the records, the tours, the writing, the relationships) it's pretty mind-boggling. Bob NP: The Film Studio Orchestra, "The Circle Game" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 10:06:33 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: gage thanks Kate - the reality side is that this morning I had on NPR as always and all the discussion of war and his father being a Marine - asking if his father could get killed and would kill people - and discussing the difference between hating war and loving the troops - what a great discussion for a kid on his 8th birthday - and knowing that in Iraq some grandparent is in the same situation as I am, with a kid with a birthday today and the in-between son-parent being in the military - their fears are the same - puts everything in perspective - Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 10:13:58 -0500 (EST) From: waytoblu Subject: Re: NJC Re: SJC Our Musical tastes, Van in particular If there's anyone out there who agrees with the assertion that Astral Weeks is some kind of masterpiece, I'd love to know why you think that way. I would say that Astral Weeks is a masterpiece. It was recorded in a period of two or three days, and much of it was very "of the moment", very fresh and somewhat raw sounding, in a good way...the first two songs, Astral Weeks, and Beside You, are probably two of my favorite Van songs of all time. It has very much a stream of conciousness feel to it...I feel that is very unique unto itself, and it really hits his style and manner of singing, right on the nose. Ballerina, is another outstanding song that I often cover in performances...I love singing his material because you can express so much passion just in the singing...they are just so much fun to sing. Perhaps it is more the sound of the album as a whole than every individual song that makes it such a wonderful album...you really have to lose yourself in time and space and just listen to it all the way through. Victor ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 10:27:49 -0500 From: vince Subject: apologies This of course should have been NJC and I apologize for the mistake - birthday excitement on my part - again sorry -- vince wrote: > thanks Kate - > > the reality side is that this morning I had on NPR as always and all > the discussion of war and his father being a Marine - asking if his > father could get killed and would kill people - and discussing the > difference between hating war and loving the troops - what a great > discussion for a kid on his 8th birthday - > > and knowing that in Iraq some grandparent is in the same situation as > I am, with a kid with a birthday today and the in-between son-parent > being in the military - their fears are the same - > > puts everything in perspective - > > Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 17:44:32 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Chomsky njc AzeemAK@aol.com wrote: > Hitchens is undoubtedly a man of the left, > don't you mean right? Is that a mistake or is it me making the error? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 18:07:33 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Chomsky njc oh dear what an ignorant so and so i am. I, for some reason, thought you were all talking about the large blonde man that recently made a film documentary. He wears glasses and has unruly hair. was it about Columbine? I know nothing about him, so am reading the links. thanks for those. wouldn't be concerend about him being lableled a 'self hating jew'. people do this sort o of thing all the time. Sheer bigotry. Don't agree with evrything that comes out of an Israeli mouth? You anti semite. If you happen to be jewish, you are self hating. It says nothing at all about the people eas such but syas much about the labelers. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 12:14:22 -0600 From: David Sadowski Subject: Re: NJC affirmation I would put more stock in the White Sox' opinions about Iraq, North Korea, Bush, cowboys, etc., if they deployed some weapons of mass destruction of their own in the outfield, were engaged in an arms race on the pitchers mound, etc. Since they don't I think your argument strikes out. vince wrote: > On a White Sox list to which I belong, we have been disagreeing most > vehemently with one another on the Iraq North Korea Bush as cowboy > shoot from the hip threat to US security and freedom issues - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 13:36:49 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: NJC affirmation David Sadowski wrote: > I would put more stock in the White Sox' opinions about Iraq, North > Korea, Bush, cowboys, etc., if they deployed some weapons of mass > destruction of their own in the outfield, were engaged in an arms race > on the pitchers mound, etc. > > Since they don't I think your argument strikes out. > Magglio Ordonez and Carlos Lee in the outfield don't hit enough for you? Mark Buehrle, Bartolo Colon, Danny Wright (14 wins in 2002), and Jon Garland (12 in 2002) aren't enough on the mound with Billy Koch coming in to close? Frank Thomas as DH isn't a Big Hurt enough? my guess: 1. cubs fan, knows nothing about baseball 2. yankees fan, knows nothing about any team but their own 3. twins fan, waving a homer hanky Sorry, the 3rd best AL offense last year is better than ever and our pitching is as good as it gets. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 12:41:41 -0600 From: "Mary E. Pitassi" Subject: RE: war (njc) Kakki replied to me, a couple of days ago: "I only care that fellow people in my country are being led by nihilists with an agenda. I am a bit of a Pollyanna in that I don't want others to feel that everything and everyone in their government is so evil. I don't want them consumed with such negativity every day. Yes, there are bad people everywhere, but to say it is all corrupt and evil and bad is not true and it is extremely unfair and contemptuous of millions of honorable Americans who work hard and dilligently for their country and its defense." "Nihilists with an agenda"? Exactly who are you talking about, Kakki? If it's leftists in general, most of them I know have as their purpose not annihilation of anything for its own sake, but rather, restructuring and starting again, with different and (from their point of view) better goals. I'm just not sure who or what you're referencing. And who said "everything and everyone is [our] government is so evil?" First of all, if that's true, then we should be talking about it, Pollyanna-ism be damned. But I'm not hearing that from anyone on this list. What I have heard occasionally is that, even for those who have spent their whole lives in their country, there is sometimes still an incomplete and unequal justice. What I've heard much more frequently is that *some* facets of U.S. *foreign policy* are unwise/imperialistic/short-sighted/stupid (take your pick of adjectives). I have NEVER heard any self-identifying leftist on this list, or, I've got to say, anywhere else, state that "everything and everyone in their government is. . .evil." Never. It's this all-or-nothing tendency that you seem to evidence on the issue of criticizing the U.S. or its various policies that, frankly, has me perplexed. I do not see the world, my country, my church, or most issues as requiring my full and unbridled support. Since when did this become a matter of black and white, full or empty? We've had some good exchanges in the past, Kakki, even when (or maybe, especially when) we disagreed. But I'm afraid I have to agree with Patrick on this one. It does seem to me that you brand EVERY attempt to criticize the U.S. as "anti-American." And that's a label that, even as I oppose this war vociferously and dissent on other actions and positions on which I think my country has fallen short, I'll never, ever accept. Mary P. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 18:52:31 +0000 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: How does Joni's music affect you? On Friday, Feb 14, 2003, at 22:59 Europe/London, Stephen Toogood wrote: > Oh well if anybody wants me > I'll be in the bar Steve, I love it! Did you write that, or did it come from somewhere else? Wondering if it's yet another nugget I've missed from BSN or S&L, of if you need nudging to publish any more little gems to a wider audience... :-) Cheers, - --Chris Marshall chrisAThatstand.org (AIM: Chr15Marshall) "If you're ever lost, I'll beat the world to finding you" Stryngs, "Bobblehats and Beer" Band website, with downloads, at http://www.stryngs.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 14:30:16 -0500 From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Chomsky njc Christopher Hitchens is a man of the left. You were probably thinking of his brother Peter, who is pretty right wing. Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 11:30:44 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: RE: war (njc) I continue to be flabbergasted by the condescension displayed here. Who are you Kakki to save the world from it's own consciousness? You fancy yourself as a "Pollyanna" - and imply that those against a war, display negativity, while those for one ... are what optimistic, hopeful, positive? Ye Gads! Thank you Mary for putting an intelligent and less biased twist on it then either Kakki or I can, coming at it from different directions as we do. And let us remember that the revolutionaries, the left, the ex-patriots are the ones who formed this country. My country right or wrong is out! My country let's be the best that we can be is more the mantra I would be compelled to chant. How dare anyone imply that I am anti-American. I understand better than you know the efforts from both sides that make for a pretty good system of checks and balances in or country. But I must propell myself from the left and you from the right and sometimes we must look and understand the other side to know what is needed next. BUt as you think we don't budge over here on the left, I continue to see no movement on the right. I sat all week at my very right wing Republican job, and listened to all this footstomping and whining and judgement, and I thought if you only knew half of what you think you know about people! I could not respond cause I was busy making that "American Dream" come true for almost half the price and double the work than I used to get and do. Even in my business, this war is not going to be a welcome thing for the economy as it once used to be. Hmmm anyone seen gas prices lately? O-I-L-! Definitley an ingredient in this recipe for war, and yes, not the only one, I realize. Peace, Susan NP: Joni/LOTC/Circle Game - that it is! Mary E. wrote: > "Nihilists with an agenda"? Exactly who are you talking about, Kakki? If > it's leftists in general, most of them I know have as their purpose not > annihilation of anything for its own sake, but rather, restructuring and > starting again, with different and (from their point of view) better goals. > I'm just not sure who or what you're referencing. > > And who said "everything and everyone is [our] government is so evil?" > I have NEVER heard any self-identifying leftist on this list, or, I've got to > say, anywhere else, state that "everything and everyone in their government > is. . .evil." Never. > > It's this all-or-nothing tendency that you seem to evidence on the issue of > criticizing the U.S. or its various policies that, frankly, has me perplexed. > We've had some good exchanges in the past, Kakki, even when (or maybe, > especially when) we disagreed. But I'm afraid I have to agree with Patrick on > this one. It does seem to me that you brand EVERY attempt to criticize the > U.S. as "anti-American." And that's a label that, even as I oppose this war > vociferously and dissent on other actions and positions on which I think my > country has fallen short, I'll never, ever accept. > > Mary P. Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 14:31:33 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: RE: lyric question, 100% jc :) Apparently Joni sent this to the copywriter, oh so long ago. >>>>>> "Look out the left", the captain said, "The lights down there that's where we'll land." I saw a falling star burn up above the Las Vegas sands. It wasn't the one that you gave to me... etc >>>>>> "star burn up" is a double-mouthful. Looking at it as text, it reminds me of Hejira-era allusion, density, and cinematic description. It's no wonder I never heard it correctly. Being a sailor, I always "heard" this: "I saw starboard and aft" I never "got" that she saw a falling star . I can imagine that the air above the desert, like the air above the Rockies, is very clear. What a great line because it's so vivid and so perfect for a cautionary tale of a flight gone wrong. I guess it's time to re-read "The Complete Poems and Lyrics" again. Does someone have the collection of typos in this book that some one of us JMDLers compiled? All the best, Lama Saying "look out the left" comes from the same brain that earlier wrote "he heard her off to starboard" which brings us back to "one". It's also what precipitated today's research. Thank you. > From: Jim L'Hommedieu (Lama) [mailto:jlamadoo@fuse.net] > You're on a ship in Lake Superior. Let's say there's a storm and > you're about 15 miles from White Fish Bay, standing in the middle > of the boat, facing the front, the bow. The hull is pitching and > yawning as the boat rolls from side to side in the waves. It's > dusk, and foggy. The starboard rail is the boat's outside edge > on your right. > > Over the wind and the rain and the groaning, twisting rigging you > shout, "WHERE'S THE EDMUND FITZGERALD? DID THE CAPTAIN SEE HER?" > > I might holler back, "NO, BUT HE HEARD HER PLAINLY ENOUGH, OFF TO > STARBOARD, BUCKLING AND WHIMPERING AS SHE WENT DOWN!" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 14:57:56 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Joni sings lead on Herbie's "Gershwin's World" 100% JC. If you guys don't have Herbie Hancock's "Gershwin's World" you are missing some really nice tracks. Joni sings lead on "the man i love" and "summertime". I love Stevie Wonder's take on "St. Louis Blues" even more. This guy Herbie can really play. Who knew? :) Lama np: S&L on vinyl ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 15:17:22 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Re: criticism - NJC You're skating close to the edge here, Patrick. First off, Kakki uses a screen name because she's had some stalking episodes and she doesn't want her baptismal name available to every search engine on the internet. The way you've (attempted to) use her real name is offensive and potentially brings danger back into her life. Second, if she defends foreign policy at every opportunity, it's really offensive and untrue to compare that to the fabrications of McCarthy and his staff. She's as entitled to discuss here as anyone. What's not allowed here is personal attacks like comparing her intellectual points to "bullshyt" and a "particularly nasty form of McCarthyism". McCarthy was a master of the dark business of creating a corrosive environment and turning it to his own advantage. Sound like anyone you know? Please don't bring danger into a list members life or attack personally with a post. Thanks all. All the best, Lama Quoting in its entirety this one time, Patrick said, - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 00:53:58 -0500 From: "patrick leader" Subject: criticism - NJC quoting this re noam chomsky... >kakki: he is someone who has nothing but contempt for most Americans and their country for most Americans and their country. << randy: His main criticisms revolve around our foreign policy < kate: i've seen this issue come up here so many times- criticizing a gov'ts foreign policy is completely different than criticizing a citizen of a country...whether it is the usa, iraq, whatever...HUGE difference... it pains me to point this out, but these criticisms always come from kakki, our list-member kathryn herlity. EVERY post that includes any comments that could be considered critical of the united states' foreign policy eventually gets a comment that kakki is tired of all the anti-americanism on the list. it is especially obvious in bush 43 discussions. every single thread in which a jmdler says anything negative about our current president eventually draws a comment from kathryn about anti-americanism on the list. this is a particularly nasty form of mccarhyism. john ashcroft says "you're either with us, or you're with the terrorists" and quite frankly, so does kathryn, and i don't buy either person's bullshyt. patrick [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] - ------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 14:35:53 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: war njc I haven't been reading the jmdl for the last few days as I'd had enough of the personal abuse. I only caught sight of a few today and don't know the context of the discussions, but Colin, yes, Laurie Mylroie is American, a former adviser on the mid-east to Clinton, Iraq specialist, has long advocated a link between Islamic terrorists, including bin Laden, and Saddam Hussein (was doing so before September 11). And Christopher Hitchens is pro-war, and for the person who said Hitchens defended Noam Chomsky, perhaps he used to, but he certainly doesn't now. Chomsky has gone off the radar as far as even many people on the left are concerned, and when he does make sense, it's almost always with ideas he's stolen from other people. I also read some of the attacks on Kakki. Hey Kakki, when I'm not there, you're the one to get it in the neck. But it's interesting that it always has to be someone, and that the personal attacks always come from the left. Kakki is someone who, in my experience of reading her posts, is always prepared to listen respectfully to the other side, because she genuinely wants to be informed, and if she hears a better argument than the one she has put forward, I would say she would change her mind - because she goes with the facts and the arguments, and isn't an ideological sheep. And she reads. So she knows things. Always a distinct advantage, although knowledge seems to be held in contempt by a small number of people on this list, like those who were commenting on Chomsky without having read him. (Query: how can Americans, who are supposed to be leftwing and supposed to be interested in politics, have managed not to read Noam Chomsky??) There are two real bullies on this list, and I take it you both know who you are, and another half dozen prepared to rip into people for not being politically correct, in YOUR opinion. I wish you would stop it, and stop supporting the bullying. This is SO NOT-Joni Mitchell, it's hard to believe. But bear in mind there are nearly 800 people on the list, so you are in the tiniest of minorities - you just happen to be vocal. To the listowner, Les, with the greatest of respect, I have a suggestion, which is that people who use personal insults either in posts to the list, or in private emails to jmdl-ers, be removed from the list. Three strikes and you're out or something. This could be a lively forum for sharing ideas and meeting people with different backgrounds, but it's ruined by a tiny number of people who take great delight in trying to hurt people. And yet who present themselves as the only ones on the list with any heart! Bah, humbug!!!! Sarah At 9:46 AM +0000 02/15/2003, colin wrote: >kakki wrote: > >>> >>> >>Where is she from? >> >> >>>If from the uSA, where esle does she have allegience to? >>> >this doesn't answer my questions tho i thank you for the added info. > >>> >>> >> >>She was Clinton's adviser on Middle East terrorism and Iraq for the entire 8 >>years, I believe. She was stating the Saddam/Al Queda connection long before >>Bush ever came into office. CIA reports during Clinton's time made the same > >connection. That was my only point - the idea did not arise for the first > >time with Bush. > > > >Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 16:30:08 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: njc sl.m@shaw.ca wrote: >I haven't been reading the jmdl for the last few days as I'd had >enough of the personal abuse. > I am tired of your sarcastic and vicious attacks on others and their beliefs, motivations, intellect, and expertise, and then you cry about personal attacks when anyone responds to you. >To the listowner, Les, with the greatest of respect, I have a >suggestion, which is that people who use personal insults either in >posts to the list, or in private emails to jmdl-ers, be removed from >the list. Three strikes and you're out or something. > That would be you, the first to go. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 16:46:14 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: njc Damn it all, I have always been able to eventually find something that I could connect to with everyone - like Anne Frank I believe that there is good in everyone - and I regret that I am so very worn out with some things that my prior post was not in the Spirit which I would like to post - but damn it I am angry at the passive aggressive calling out others repeatedly while claiming being personally attacked. Emotions are high - Sarah, direct to you: please post about some other things about yourself, give me something to learn about you that we can have good conversations on - tell us about the differences of life in England vs Canada or your favorite movies (are you an Altman fan? do you follow the Oscars?), any sports teams you love, do you have grandchildren you can brag on, something please - I want to find something to connect with you on that is far removed from the things that we differ on - and Lama, I note your concerns and would agree that the only names to be used in the JMDL are the names that people want to be addressed by - Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 16:12:20 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Personal Attacks (NJC) It is so painful to come to this place and be a witness to so many personal attacks. They always seem directed at the same people and by the same people. How many times does Les have to intervene in this kinda crap for you people to get it. I personally do not enjoy many of threads on this list and when I don't I delete and don't comment. One thing I have always disliked are the personal attacks because you don't agree with the person or their politics. I have been accused in the past of sticking up for my friends, but you may not get that I consider you all friends and it's just a fucking drag and very hurtful to see people attack each other (especially when you like the people involved). Please notice that I mention no names here except Les because I know how much he hates to have to keep repeating himself or delete someone from the list. Talk about Joni, talk about landscapes, Charlie Chaplin movies, and foreskins, and whatever, but please respect your brothers and sisters on this list. Thanks very much. Paz (still waiting on Lori and Donna who are probably yahooing it up in the quarter) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 14:17:20 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Give Peace a Chantz njc Some thoughts 1) We just come from such different sets of circumstance. Remember, we are all friends, here. We all want the same thing, a better, peaceful world. We disagree about how to get it. Some of us think those in the upper echelons of the US govt are concerned with freedom and justice for all. Others think they are concerned with money and power for themselves and their ilk. I would not be happy to think that anyone is too intimidated to voice their opinion. There is probably something to learn from examining 'the other side'. In matters as large and looming as war in the nuclear age, feelings are bound to be passionate. But please be civil, and attack the argument, not the person. Those on this list opposing the war are not anti-American, negative, or calling everything about the US evil. Those on this list backing the President are not warmongers intent on world domination. Our opinions only stand out from each other when there is diversity. There is only diversity when there is open discussion without intimidation and personal attacks. 2) Today millions of people all over the world are coming out to clearly say they do not want war. As many as half a million people came out in New York. Probably many more would have come out were it not for the scare tactics fed to the media. (The 'orange alert' about a possible dirty bomb being planted 'somewhere' is now called a mistake. An informant was deemed unreliable after receiving a lie-detector test. Funny that a lie detector test only takes a few minutes, but was not done until this warning was 2 days old. The emperor sheds another piece of clothing). In Spain: 2 million (reuters) In Rome: 1 million etc etc Peaceniks are not a minority. One American said: I hold it, that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive. The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. The spirit of monarchy is war and enlargement of domain: peace and moderation are the spirit of a republic. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 16:50:36 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Give Peace a Chantz njc Randy, I think there are many people on this list too intimidated to voice their opinions, and/or who think the personal abuse they encounter just isn't worth bothering about. Unfortunately, it isn't just issues like war that brings out these personal attacks. I've looked through the archives and it's always the same very small group of people engaging in personal abuse. The subject matter varies widely. They've been doing it for a long time. Judging from the emails I've received privately, I would say there's a real will now on the list as a whole to end this culture of personalizing everything, so perhaps some good will come of it. Sarah At 2:17 PM -0800 02/15/2003, Randy Remote wrote: >I would not be happy to think that anyone is too intimidated >to voice their opinion. There is probably something to learn >from examining 'the other side'. >In matters as large and looming as war in the nuclear age, feelings >are bound to be passionate. But please be civil, and attack the >argument, not the person. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 18:02:25 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: My Joni Valentine - NJC I received Volume 37 of Covers and Contributions today from Bob Muller. Thanks, Bob! And thanks for the lovely Hallmark Valentine, the big ol' heart-shaped box of candy, and most of all, for the roses. I love you too! XO, --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 18:15:14 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: war njc Sarah writes: << To the listowner, Les, with the greatest of respect, I have a suggestion, which is that people who use personal insults (SNIP) be removed from the list. >> Shit! That would be the end of me . . . Don't do it, Les! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 18:27:06 -0500 From: "Blair Fraipont" Subject: NJC Our Musical tastes, Van in particular YEs, Ofcourse I feel that Astral Weeks is a masterpiece. I was supposed to be a concept album of some sort and the only continuing thread I can find in the music is the music itself and the 'stream of concsciousness" lyrics. All of those songs make me want to cry for the beauty of the album truly pulls me in. WIth this album, all the forces are working together, the music, the pseudo-spirituality, the lyricism, all as one moving for the listener. The album is unlike any other Van album, and he has many masterpieces or great albums, Moondance (1970), ITs too late to stop now (1974), Veedon Fleece (1974), Into the Music (1979), COmmon One (1980), Beautiful VIsion (1982), and runners up, Tupelo Honey (1971) and Avalon Sunset (1989). Common ONe is another favorite for the same reason I love Astral Weeks, for in that musical gesture he makes on both albums is oringinal and never repeated again in his oeurve. Common one sounds at first though, like an attempt to go back to Astral Weeks, but after a listen, it is nowhere close. It exists in its own beautiful scintillating space. My aunty, who just passed away turned me on to Van, and I have been cherishing his music for the last 6 years and it breaks my heart that I have no one to talk to about Van the Man anymore. My favorite song on Astral Weeks is "Slim Slow Slider". It captures Van's innovative style of mixing the blues (the lyric format of repeating the first line of each verse twice) with a folk sentimentality, (the lone guitar and earthy hush of his voice) with Jazz (flute and acoustic standup bass). Blair NP: Slim Slow Slider > >If there's anyone out there who agrees with the assertion that Astral >Weeks is some kind of masterpiece, I'd love to know why you think that way. > > >I would say that Astral Weeks is a masterpiece. It was recorded in a >period of two or three days, and much of it was very "of the moment", very >fresh and somewhat raw sounding, in a good way...the first two songs, >Astral Weeks, and Beside You, are probably two of my favorite Van songs of >all time. It has very much a stream of conciousness feel to it...I feel >that is very unique unto itself, and it really hits his style and manner of >singing, right on the nose. Ballerina, is another outstanding song that I >often cover in performances...I love singing his material because you can >express so much passion just in the singing...they are just so much fun to >sing. > >Perhaps it is more the sound of the album as a whole than every individual >song that makes it such a wonderful album...you really have to lose >yourself in time and space and just listen to it all the way through. > >Victor _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 18:30:56 -0500 From: "Blair Fraipont" Subject: Re: NJC Our Musical tastes, Van in particular Flute! Sorry, i feel like such a boob! I meant saxophone! Blair with >Jazz (flute and acoustic standup bass). > >Blair >NP: Slim Slow Slider > >\ _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 23:49:31 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: war njc Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: > >Shit! That would be the end of me . . . > bollocks to that Ethel. Have never seen you be rude on list. now off list....... > >Don't do it, Les! > > --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 23:53:41 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Chomsky njc I think we aretalking about the same guy-quite tall, plummy voice, not blessed int he look depratmetn. Rampant homophobe, appears on tv quite often. Hvaenever heard him say anything I'd think of as left. But then i don't know my left from my right anyhow! Ijust know what i think seems right or wrong. AzeemAK@aol.com wrote: >Christopher Hitchens is a man of the left. You were probably thinking of his brother Peter, who is pretty right wing. > >Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 23:59:52 +0000 From: colin Subject: attacking njc before we write off idignant posts attacking others for their attacking of others we should eprhaps look at what we post ourselves. Some of the most vicious post i have read recently have seemd to me like the pot calling the kettle blue..... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 00:00:03 +0000 From: colin Subject: attacking njc before we write off idignant posts attacking others for their attacking of others we should eprhaps look at what we post ourselves. Some of the most vicious post i have read recently have seemd to me like the pot calling the kettle blue..... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 00:04:20 -0000 From: "Stephen Toogood" Subject: NJC Re: How does Joni's music affect you? Chris, It's allready copyrighted and published and will be in a record store near you soon! ;) STEVE T - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Marshall" To: "Joni List" Cc: "Stephen Toogood" Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 6:52 PM Subject: Re: How does Joni's music affect you? > On Friday, Feb 14, 2003, at 22:59 Europe/London, Stephen Toogood wrote: > > Oh well if anybody wants me > > I'll be in the bar > > Steve, > > I love it! Did you write that, or did it come from > somewhere else? > > Wondering if it's yet another nugget I've missed from > BSN or S&L, of if you need nudging to publish any > more little gems to a wider audience... :-) > > Cheers, > > --Chris Marshall > > chrisAThatstand.org (AIM: Chr15Marshall) > > "If you're ever lost, I'll beat the world to finding you" > Stryngs, "Bobblehats and Beer" > Band website, with downloads, at http://www.stryngs.com/ ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #117 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)