From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #115 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, February 14 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 115 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Chomsky (njc) ["kakki" ] Joni & Valentine's Day ["Tamsin Lucas" ] urgent plea ["Wally Kairuz" ] If your happy and you know it!!!! PROTEST SONGS NJC ["Lucy Hone" ] Re: Today in History: February 14 [Catherine McKay ] Joni for delivery ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: NJC Porridge (again) [Catherine McKay ] Re: Joni for delivery [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Joni for delivery [Emily Gray Tedrowe ] RE: Valentines Day (NJC) ["Heather" ] War from the armchair (NJC) [MGVal@aol.com] Re: war (njc) [Relayer211@aol.com] Re: SJC Our Musical tastes [Freddyb4@aol.com] Re: War from the armchair (NJC) [colin ] Slamming free choice behind us! NJC [MINGSDANCE@aol.com] NJC Re: SJC Our Musical tastes, Van in particular [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Joni for delivery - njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Joni for delivery ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: Oil guys (njc) or "Duke of Oil" ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: war (njc) ["kasey simpson" ] Re: Oil guys (njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: war & lawsuits NJC/impeachment [Randy Remote ] Re: war (njc) [dsk ] Re: Oil guys (njc) or "Duke of Oil" [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: How does Joni's music affect you? ["Stephen Toogood" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 00:43:13 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Chomsky (njc) Oh Mike please! His viewpoints and postulations are diametrically opposed or completely foreign to those of the average American. I'll agree that there are Americans who follow him, but most others are not, and never will be on the same page as him. That is not slander. His words may sound like white light to some, to others' ears they sound like complete falsehoods and hatred. Don't get me started on the many examples I could provide because it would go on endlessly. To simplify, most Americans still are not Communists and they know why they are not communists and do not want to be communists. Most Americans still do not think their government is evil and the source of all evil in the world and do not think they deserve to be attacked and killed by terrorists. You love him and think he is a wise oracle because your beliefs probably conform with his. They don't with most Americans. I'll never understand why so many on the left are always exhorting everyone to understand the many cultures of other countries but yet have no respect or consideration for the culture of those in the U.S. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 08:55:59 +0000 From: "Tamsin Lucas" Subject: Joni & Valentine's Day Happy Valentines/Commercialised spending day everyone. In my beloved's card I wrote: "But you're bound to lose if you let the blues get you scared to feel And I feel like I'm just being born Like a shiny light breaking in a storm There are so many reasons why I love him" Though it's made me feel a little melancholic. He's not the biggest Joni fan but has been known to request "the parking lot song" ;-) from time to time... _________________________________________________________________ Overloaded with spam? With MSN 8, you can filter it out http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&pgmarket=en-gb&XAPID=32&DI=1059 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 06:46:28 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: urgent plea i am so sorry to use joni only bandwidth for this, but I HAVE JUST LOST MY COMPLETE ADDRESS BOOK, and this on the verge of my trip to the us!!! this is a major disaster and i beg you to forgive my not using the appropriate tag for this message. so would everybody, SIMPLY EVERYBODY please send me a blank message to wallykai@fibertel.com.ar and to wallykai@yahoo.com so that i can have your addresses again? i also need a message from the northeast list. it will take you only a few seconds and you would help me enormously. as it is, i can remember only my own address at the moment, and i took advantage of a message from tamsin to recover the jmdl address. please help me out!!!!! love, wally ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:48:21 -0000 From: "Lucy Hone" Subject: If your happy and you know it!!!! PROTEST SONGS NJC Thank you Ron for the song... It says it all... I don't know how many of you were Tom Paxton Fans in the 60's but for me (a UK cictzen with no right to bear arms and aged only 10 in 1967.....) I loved his "BUY A GUN FOR YOUR SON" I also , to my parents shock and horror loved (and could recite) the "talking Vietnam Potluck Blues" not knowing what the lyrics were about... but I just loved the song!!! I have to do the lyrics to "Buy a Gun" from memory as the LP is long gone (and it was my brothers anyway) and I am uncertain as to how right I am.. Please, if anyone has the lyrics mail them to me please the internet site about tom, and all the other lyric finders seem to have everything BUT this song...... Here goes........ Hallelujah mums and Daddies Cowboys Rebels Yanks and Commies Buy your self some real red blooded fun, Don't get worried, Don't get nervous send your kids into the service Let them rise unto the Pentagon. So buy a gun for your son right away sir Shake his hand like a man and let him play sir Let his little mind expand Place a weapon in his hand For the skills he learns today may someday pay sir. To the Pentagon he'll rise The President he will advise His reputataion growing all the while And when they get that fateful call They'll turn their faces to the wall And press the firing button with a smile So buy a gun for your son right away sir Shake his hand like aman and let him play sir Let his little mind expand Place a weapon in his hand For the skills he learns today may someday pay sir..... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 10:05:08 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: war (njc) kakki wrote: > >http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=8745 > >Maybe she is full of it, too, > i read it and think she is full of it! There is no proof for what she says. Just because she say it was Iraq and doesn't make it so. Bin Laden and Hussien are diametrically opposed to eachother. What happned on sept 11 did not need a state to do it. It was a few men who gained access to the right places. Bin laden has plenty of money and from SA not Iraq. I fail to see how this article constitutes any argument. It is juts a person spouting off ehr opinion,, as we are all doing. The fact she a Dr with Govt connections does not give her any credence. Where is she from? If from the uSA, where esle does she have allegience to? bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 06:57:33 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Today in History: February 14 --- ljirvin@jmdl.com wrote: > 1967: Joni performs at the "Riverboat" coffeehouse > in Toronto. > More info: > http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=602 > ---- > For a comprehensive reference to Joni's appearances, > consult Joni Mitchell ~ A Chronology of Appearances: > http://www.jonimitchell.com/appearances.html How journalism has changed, quoting from this article, emphasis mine: "In her return date at Toronto's Riverboat coffeehouse following a successful November booking, she displays an ever ripening voice, and *is an eyeful in a tight-fitting mini silver lami dress, and sporting flaxen hair that falls below her shoulders."* ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 07:41:23 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: NJC - Happy Valentine's Day, Muller! - NJC Hope you're having fun with the Joni onlies! Hugs and kisses, Your friends on the *other* list ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 08:04:08 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC - Happy Valentine's Day, Muller! - NJC In a message dated 2/14/2003 7:41:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, Murphycopy writes: > Hope you're having fun with the Joni onlies! Thanks Bob...being a Joni only reminds me of my summer vacations at Pawley's Island. After a long period of noise and bothersome distractions, I get to just lounge in the sun, listen to the ocean and my music of choice, and occasionally someone will wander out to one of the decks and we'll share a few moments of truly engaging conversation. Plus the blister on my 'delete' finger is almost totally healed! As Eeyore would say - thanks for noticing me. Bob NP: Claire Martin, "Black Coffee" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:05:53 +0000 From: Chris Marshall Subject: NJC Porridge (again) So... having spectacularly proved my inability to cook porridge, yesterday morning I found myself next to the cooker, LEFT IN CHARGE OF THE FECKING PORRIDGE! I just can't cope with the stress of getting it wrong, and the porridge somehow sensed this, and immediately stuck itself to the pan. Think I need elementary porridge classes. - --Chris Marshall chrisAThatstand.org (AIM: Chr15Marshall) "If you're ever lost, I'll beat the world to finding you" Stryngs, "Bobblehats and Beer" Band website, with downloads, at http://www.stryngs.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:17:19 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Joni for delivery From: Emily Gray Tedrowe > but i do appreciate all the good advice and suggestions. > > (and the best wishes for our baby! a tiny piece of JC: i packed up the > CDs we'll be bringing to the hospital for labor and delivery, and chose > "blue" and "for the roses" as my joni selections...ones that are near > and dear and sweet and comforting to me.) > If I may relay a small bit of advice, our ob-gyn told us to bring music with a beat to help the pushing and speed up labor. It worked and it went fast each time: Hence my 1st daughter was born with ZZ Top, and the second one with Mingus,Mingus,Mingus (that's the name of the album). May I suggest you take DED instead of Blue and FTR for the occasion. Best wishes Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 08:52:20 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: NJC Porridge (again) --- Chris Marshall wrote: > So... having spectacularly proved my inability to > cook porridge, yesterday morning I found myself > next to the cooker, LEFT IN CHARGE OF THE FECKING > PORRIDGE! > > I just can't cope with the stress of getting it > wrong, and the porridge somehow sensed this, and > immediately stuck itself to the pan. > > Think I need elementary porridge classes. > I have the same problem with rice. The only way I can cook rice is in the microwave. It always turns out perfect if I nuke it. If I try it any other way, it either turns to mush or burns onto the pot. Try nuking your porridge. It works for me, but it's still a tricky bugger - it keeps trying to get out of whatever you're cooking it in, so you keep having to stop the microwave, stir it a bit and start again. In other words, you have to keep your eye on it constantly - unlike the watched pot that never boils, the watched porridge constantly boils over the top and then you end up with mushy oatmeal all over the insides of the microwave. If that happens, just scrape it off and back into the bowl - no one will ever know. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:25:48 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni for delivery In a message dated 2/14/2003 9:17:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, olszer@xlsecurity.com writes: > May I suggest you take DED instead of Blue and FTR for the > occasion. Don't do it, Emily! You'll have "flies in your baby's eyes"! :~) Bob, who played mostly Springsteen in the delivery room for his Mrs. NP: Bevis Frond, "You Never Give Me Your Money" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:43:45 -0500 From: Emily Gray Tedrowe Subject: Re: Joni for delivery ya'll are cracking me up. i'm going to tell courtney tonight as a joke that we'll be playing zz top during labor, just to check his response!! interestingly, laurent, our OB told us the exact opposite thing (doctors!): she emphasizes relaxing during labor, so suggested calming music... hence, "blue" and "FTR" for me. - -- emily ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 10:07:10 -0500 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: Valentines Day (NJC) I hear that Hallmark is looking for you Jimmy! LOL! Here's some that my sister-in-law sent me. Heather What Hallmark Doesn't Print....... 1. So your daughter's a hooker, and it spoiled your day. Look at the bright side, it's really good pay. 3. Heard your wife left you, How upset you must be. But don't fret about it...She moved in with me. 4. Looking back over the years that we've been together, I can't help but wonder? What the hell was I thinking? 5. Congratulations on your wedding day! Too bad no one likes your husband. 6. How could two people as beautiful as you... have such an ugly baby? 7. I've always wanted to have someone to hold, someone to love. After having met you .... I've changed my mind. 8. I must admit, you brought Religion into my life... I never believed in Hell till I met you. 9. As the days go by, I think of how lucky I am... that you're not here to ruin it for me. 10. Congratulations on your promotion. Before you go ... would you like to take this knife out of my back? You'll probably need it again. 11. Someday I hope to get married ...but not to you. 12. Happy birthday! You look great for your age... Almost Lifelike! 13. When we were together, you always said you'd die for me. Now that we've broken up, I think it's time you kept your promise. 14. We have been friends for a very long time... what say we stop? 15. I'm so miserable without you ... it's almost like you're here. 16. Congratulations on your new bundle of joy. Did you ever find out who the father was? 17. Your friends and I wanted to do something special for your birthday. So we're having you put to sleep. 18. Happy Birthday, Uncle Dad! - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of FMYFL@aol.com Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 6:46 PM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Valentines Day (NJC) Tomorrow's Valentine's Day (in the USA anyway), and since my JMDL buddies have the biggest hearts in the world, I want to wish everyone a happy Valentine's Day. I thank all of you for sharing your heart and making me happy. I'm still trying to work on my own Valentine's Day poem for my loved one, but I'm stuck on which one to send. It's between: I thought that I could love no other Until, that is, I met your brother or My love, you take my breath away What have you stepped in to smell this way? Oh Well, I better start over! love and peace to everyone, Jimmy NP: Crosby & Nash (and CPR) Live at the Troubadour Jan.'03 -THANK YOU PAZ!!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 10:53:58 -0500 From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: War from the armchair (NJC) These are truly uncertain times and I can't remember the last time my worries were tied to such global events. I thought about this on the way into work today. During my commute, I tend to say the rosary and for the past 6 months, a huge part of the intentions have been for peace. Today, I wondered about my passive involvement in my desire for peace. I can march and I can vote and I can pray but how can I, as a regular, insignificant person, add to the peace process? From that I wondered: what if God said, "Give up something of value to you and I will grant peace." Once that thought popped in my mind, I got stuck. Would I sacrifice one of my children? My financee? The last of my Taylor's Ham? How cushioned am I that, at this point, the biggest burden I have from possible war is internal worries and really, really long JMDL digests to read. My query to list members: pretend you believe in a God, (or an All Giving Giant Spatula That Rules The Universe if that's easier), that can offer that bargin: peace now in exchange for something of yours on a personal level. What would you be willing to give up? I can tell that this thought it going to plague me for the rest of the weekend. Best, MG ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 10:54:43 EST From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Re: war (njc) This war is crazy,absolute B.S.I listen to people talk about it and so many people are against it.there will be a huge anti war rally tomorrow in new york and a small one on a local town green tonight.I'm even more worried about what comes after the war...that might be a nightmare... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 10:55:43 EST From: Freddyb4@aol.com Subject: Re: SJC Our Musical tastes OUR MUSICAL TASTES This is not the most accurate result of your musical tastes, but itbs near enough. It was taken for granted that Joni would top the list, so some didnbt include her in their list, so amongst us, if not the World at large, she stands alone !!! These are the other artists that formed our top10 or 12. 1. James Taylor - is a clear No 1 mentioned by 75% of us 2. A group of artists almost equal at No2 Ricky Lee Jones Crosby Stills, Nash and Young, we also like them as solo artists. Joan Armatrading, pleased by this because I didnbt include her (shame !!) Janis Ian, ahead of Carole King, and Tom Waits. 3. Again this group were all about equal 3rd Beatles Van Morrison - sorry I still canbt take to him Pet shop Boys Fleetwood Mac Carole King Patsy Cline and * The Crooners - you name bem someone likes bem *Hall and Oats - These may have been headed for the hall of shame, but have been saved by your mentions. Tastes range from Bjork to Dinah Washington, Spingsteen to the Pretenders, we share many of the "Take to the grave" artists Monkees, Abba, Osmonds, Bee Gees, - "Last train to Clarksville." I bought the LP, 32/6 in old money, "Dancing Queen" admit it, you love it, "Crazy Horses" well I thought Marie was cute, "Paper Woses" so what !! Then there were two, this song is good by any ones standards Maurice Gibb R.I.P. I started a joke, which started the whole World crying. But I couldnbt see, that the joke was on me, I started to cry, which started the whole World laughing, Oh if Ibd only seen, that the joke was on me. I looked at the skies, running my hands over my eyes, And I fell out of bed, hurting my head on things that I said, Till I finally died, which started the whole World living, Oh if Ibd only seen, that the joke was on me. Thatbs it Fred Anyone ever see John Denver ? or know "The Box" from "Poems Prayers and Promises?" so much talk about War. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:03:38 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: War from the armchair (NJC) MGVal@aol.com wrote: > > >My query to list members: pretend you believe in a God, (or an All Giving Giant Spatula That Rules The Universe if that's easier), that can offer that bargin: peace now in exchange for something of yours on a personal level. What would you be willing to give up? > > > well we already know what we have to give up to find peace-pride, anger, envy, jealousy, arrogance, the need to be right, in tolerance, hatred, judgement, attachment, possesiveness,...that is why we have so much trouble finding peace!!! If we could be have all this taken away without the pain of and hard work of letting go, by giving up something else, i guess hte answer would have to be anything. Why? because if you are going to be granted peace, then whatever you give up won't matter. i.e if you had to give up your intended, the min ute you have peace, it wouldn't matter. colin xoxoxo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:09:24 EST From: MINGSDANCE@aol.com Subject: Slamming free choice behind us! NJC Forwarded Message: Subj: Words of sanity amid the rush to insanity Date: 2/13/03 8:38:49 PM Eastern Standard Time From: Nick.Cuccia@latimes.com (Cuccia, Nick) To: Mike.Castelvecchi@latimes.com (Castelvecchi, Mike) Published on Wednesday, February 12, 2003 by CommonDreams.org Reckless Administration May Reap Disastrous Consequences by US Senator Robert Byrd Senate Floor Speech - Wednesday, February 12, 2003 To contemplate war is to think about the most horrible of human experiences. On this February day, as this nation stands at the brink of battle, every American on some level must be contemplating the horrors of war. Yet, this Chamber is, for the most part, silent -- ominously, dreadfully silent. There is no debate, no discussion, no attempt to lay out for the nation the pros and cons of this particular war. There is nothing. We stand passively mute in the United States Senate, paralyzed by our own uncertainty, seemingly stunned by the sheer turmoil of events. Only on the editorial pages of our newspapers is there much substantive discussion of the prudence or imprudence of engaging in this particular war. And this is no small conflagration we contemplate. This is no simple attempt to defang a villain. No. This coming battle, if it materializes, represents a turning point in U.S. foreign policy and possibly a turning point in the recent history of the world. This nation is about to embark upon the first test of a revolutionary doctrine applied in an extraordinary way at an unfortunate time. The doctrine of preemption -- the idea that the United States or any other nation can legitimately attack a nation that is not imminently threatening but may be threatening in the future -- is a radical new twist on the traditional idea of self defense. It appears to be in contravention of international law and the UN Charter. And it is being tested at a time of world-wide terrorism, making many countries around the globe wonder if they will soon be on our -- or some other nation's -- hit list. High level Administration figures recently refused to take nuclear weapons off of the table when discussing a possible attack against Iraq. What could be more destabilizing and unwise than this type of uncertainty, particularly in a world where globalism has tied the vital economic and security interests of many nations so closely together? There are h! uge cracks emerging in our time-honored alliances, and U.S. intentions are suddenly subject to damaging worldwide speculation. Anti-Americanism based on mistrust, misinformation, suspicion, and alarming rhetoric from U.S. leaders is fracturing the once solid alliance against global terrorism which existed after September 11. Here at home, people are warned of imminent terrorist attacks with little guidance as to when or where such attacks might occur. Family members are being called to active military duty, with no idea of the duration of their stay or what horrors they may face. Communities are being left with less than adequate police and fire protection. Other essential services are also short-staffed. The mood of the nation is grim. The economy is stumbling. Fuel prices are rising and may soon spike higher. This Administration, now in power for a little over two years, must be judged on its record. I believe that that record is dismal. In that scant two years, this Administration has squandered a large projected surplus of some $5.6 trillion over the next decade and taken us to projected deficits as far as the eye can see. This Administration's domestic policy has put many of our states in dire financial condition, under funding scores of essential programs for our people. This Administration has fostered policies which have slowed economic growth. This Administration has ignored urgent matters such as the crisis in health care for our elderly. This Administration has been slow to provide adequate funding for homeland security. This Administration has been reluctant to better protect our long and porous borders. In foreign policy, this Administration has failed to find Osama bin Laden. In fact, just yesterday we heard from him again marshaling his forces and urging them to kill. This Administration has split traditional alliances, possibly crippling, for all time, International order-keeping entities like the United Nations and NATO. This Administration has called into question the traditional worldwide perception of the United States as well-intentioned, peacekeeper. This Administration has turned the patient art of diplomacy into threats, labeling, and name calling of the sort that reflects quite poorly on the intelligence and sensitivity of our leaders, and which will have consequences for years to come. Calling heads of state pygmies, labeling whole countries as evil, denigrating powerful European allies as irrelevant -- these types of crude insensitivities can do our great nation no good. We may have massive military might, but we cannot fight a global war on terrorism alone. We need the cooperation and friendship of our time-honored allies as well as the newer found friends whom we can attract with our wealth. Our awesome military machine will do us little good if we suffer another devastating attack on our homeland which severely damages our economy. Our military manpower is already stretched thin and we will need the augmenting support of those nations who can supply troop strength, not just sign letters cheering us on. The war in Afghanistan has cost us $37 billion so far, yet there is evidence that terrorism may already be starting to regain its hold in that region. We have not found bin Laden, and unless we secure the peace in Afghanistan, the dark dens of terrorism may yet again flourish in that remote and devastated land. Pakistan as well is at risk of destabilizing forces. This Administration has not finished the first war against terrorism and yet it is eager to embark on another conflict with perils much greater than those in Afghanistan. Is our attention span that short? Have we not learned that after winning the war one must always secure the peace? And yet we hear little about the aftermath of war in Iraq. In the absence of plans, speculation abroad is rife. Will we seize Iraq's oil fields, becoming an occupying power which controls the price and supply of that nation's oil for the foreseeable future? To whom do we propose to hand the reigns of power after Saddam Hussein? Will our war inflame the Muslim world resulting in devastating attacks on Israel? Will Israel retaliate with its own nuclear arsenal? Will the Jordanian and Saudi Arabian governments be toppled by radicals, bolstered by Iran which has much closer ties to terrorism than Iraq? Could a disruption of the world's oil supply lead to a world-wide recession? Has our senselessly bellicose language and our callous disregard of the interests and opinions of other nations increased the global race to join the nuclear club and made proliferation an even more lucrative practice for nations which need the income? In only the space of two short years this reckless and arrogant Administration has initiated policies which may reap disastrous consequences for years. One can understand the anger and shock of any President after the savage attacks of September 11. One can appreciate the frustration of having only a shadow to chase and an amorphous, fleeting enemy on which it is nearly impossible to exact retribution. But to turn one's frustration and anger into the kind of extremely destabilizing and dangerous foreign policy debacle that the world is currently witnessing is inexcusable from any Administration charged with the awesome power and responsibility of guiding the destiny of the greatest superpower on the planet. Frankly many of the pronouncements made by this Administration are outrageous. There is no other word. Yet this chamber is hauntingly silent. On what is possibly the eve of horrific infliction of death and destruction on the population of the nation of Iraq -- a population, I might add, of which over 50% is under age 15 -- this chamber is silent. On what is possibly only days before we send thousands of our own citizens to face unimagined horrors of chemical and biological warfare -- this chamber is silent. On the eve of what could possibly be a vicious terrorist attack in retaliation for our attack on Iraq, it is business as usual in the United States Senate. We are truly "sleepwalking through history." In my heart of hearts I pray that this great nation and its good and trusting citizens are not in for a rudest of awakenings. To engage in war is always to pick a wild card. And war must always be a last resort, not a first choice. I truly must question the judgment of any President who can say that a massive unprovoked military attack on a nation which is over 50% children is "in the highest moral traditions of our country". This war is not necessary at this time. Pressure appears to be having a good result in Iraq. Our mistake was to put ourselves in a corner so quickly. Our challenge is to now find a graceful way out of a box of our own making. Perhaps there is still a way if we allow more time. ### ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:17:39 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: SJC Our Musical tastes, Van in particular In a message dated 2/14/2003 10:55:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, Freddyb4 writes: > Van Morrison - sorry I still can't take to him Thanks for putting that list together, Fred...after 5+ years here I didn't see any great revelations, but still an interesting exercise. In regards to your comment about Van, he's a real hit & miss as far as I'm concerned. My buddy Boston Jim has helped me appreciate his career span, but there's one record of his that I just don't get at all, Astral Weeks. This one shows up all the time on "Best rock records of all time" lists, and I have no idea why? It's always been dull and overly spacy, anti-melodic & anti-rhythmic to my ears. "Moondance" remains the classic Van as far as I'm concerned. If there's anyone out there who agrees with the assertion that Astral Weeks is some kind of masterpiece, I'd love to know why you think that way. Bob NP: Jane's Addiction, "Classic Girl" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 12:14:58 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni for delivery - njc Laurent writes: << If I may relay a small bit of advice, our ob-gyn told us to bring music with a beat to help the pushing and speed up labor. >> Jungle Line! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 19:10:32 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Re: Joni for delivery > interestingly, laurent, our OB told us the exact opposite thing (doctors!): > she emphasizes relaxing during labor, so suggested calming music... > hence, "blue" and "FTR" for me. > > -- emily > I guess it depends on your personality, although I don't understand why you would need to relax during the actual labor unless you want it to last for 24 hours. Afterwards for sure, but not during. Tell you what, why don't you bring both just in case and please do tell us afterwards which one worked for you. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 10:40:38 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Oil guys (njc) or "Duke of Oil" kakki >> I watched nearly every hour of that war (even at work).<< randy >>Yebut yebut-Coverage of Desert storm was censored.<< watching a war on tv (even writing this sentence sounds crazy...what a strange world we live in) has little to do with the realities of war... i think if anyone really wants to understand war, it is essential to listen to those who fought...here is a place to start http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/ i post again an excerpt from a letter by Charles Sheehan-Miles (founder of http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/): "Twelve years ago, in February of 1991, I crossed the border between Saudi Arabia and Iraq with the 24th Infantry Division. Back then I was a 20-year-old Abrams tank crewman, and I fought in several battles in southern Iraq. I can say from personal experience, the media got it wrong. The first Gulf War wasn't clean, it wasn't pretty, and it wasn't precise." kakki >>he is someone who has nothing but contempt for most Americans and their country for most Americans and their country.<<< randy >>His main criticisms revolve around our foreign policy<< i've seen this issue come up here so many times- criticizing a gov'ts foreign policy is completely different than criticizing a citizen of a country...whether it is the usa, iraq, whatever...HUGE difference... Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world, indeed it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:01:21 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: war & lawsuits NJC/impeachment fred >>But I'd go further, even paying for it myself if I could. I'd file a suit against Bush, et al., for violating the presidential oath of office, specifically the promise to "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States."<< there is also this: "Ramsey Clark, former U.S. Attorney General during the Johnson Administration has drafted articles of impeachment setting forth high crimes and misdemeanors by President Bush and other civil officers of his administration." to learn more &/or sign http://www.VoteToImpeach.org ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world, indeed it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:25:53 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Re: war (njc) Thanks, Kate, for pointing that out. Right after 9/11, one of the first thoughts from Cheney was "Great. Now we can finally go after Iraq." I didn't know you could read minds. Yes. People everywhere were in deep mourning, and Cheney and Rumsfeld were focused on finally getting what they want. How do you KNOW what their focus was on? Is it any wonder I do not trust their motives? No, I don't wonder since you seem to be able to read minds, and know things that others don't. Osama is a very smart man. Yes he is, and why wouldn't he side with one less 'moral' than himself for the good of his cause? He releases a tape in which he obliquely refers to Saddam, and the US government doesn't try to hold back this tape as it has others (out of a concern it's sending coded messages to sleeper cells) This I am interested in, what tapes have been with held? Where can I read this? Last I knew of the tapes where released after the government agencies looked for coded messages. I would much prefer that Osama be sought and brought to justice (not murdered outright because then he's a martyr, although I have a feeling he'll arrange that somehow anyway), that Afghanistan be made safe and rebuilt, and that US citizens be protected. Ok, just for arguments sake, let's say he is in Iraq, then what do we do? Ask him to come out? Ask Saddam to send him over? What? It's appalling that the frontline protectors in this country (police, firemen, healthcare workers) have not been given the money yet by Congress to get the equipment and training needed to protect US citizens!!! And yet we're being set up as targets for retaliation!!! Something's very very wrong with that picture. Now I agree with this. The problem is that the police aren't trusted or respected. After 9/11 I called my brother-in-law who was a police man (he's retired now) and ask him how it felt to be a cop, and respected. He said it felt damn good. THEN I could tolerate (and possibly even trust) the claims being made about Iraq. Debra Shea I doubt it. KaseyGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 12:46:51 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Oil guys (njc) mike says > Chomsky has always condemned tyranny wherever it stands and from whichever political wing it emerges.< which leads me to contemplate these thoughts from Thomas Jefferson: "The will of the people is the only legitimate foundation of any government, and to protect its free expression should be our first object." "The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive." "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." "A little rebellion now and then...is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government." "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God." (Motto on his seal) "Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends [life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness] it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government..." (The Declaration of Independence) "Reason and free inquiry are the only effectual agents against error." "Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies." Thomas Jefferson (1743 - 1826) ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world, indeed it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 12:59:29 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: war & lawsuits NJC/impeachment I would also add that we should impeach everyone in Congress that violated the Constitution by unconditionally handing over their power to declare war to Alfred E Bush. You can learn more about the articles of impeachment, and vote for it online if you want to, at http://www.votetoimpeach.org/ Ramsey Clark was Atty General during the Johnson administration, and is calling for the impeachment of President Bush, Vice President Cheney, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld, and Attorney General Ashcroft, and outlined the facets of impeachment before the half a million demonstrators at the January 18th National March on Washington to Stop the War on Iraq. Sidenote: I recently learned that Ashcroft's religious beliefs include the notion that dancing, that's right, dancing is bad because it is sexually arousing (which, I suppose, is also bad). Here's someone so out of it that they think dancing is a tool of Satan, yet somehow missed the prominant Thou Shalt Not Kill bit from his favorite book. Pretty twisted, eh? But that is the mentality we are dealing with. RR Kate Bennett wrote: > fhere is also this: > > "Ramsey Clark, former U.S. Attorney General during the Johnson > Administration has drafted articles of impeachment setting forth high crimes > and misdemeanors by President Bush and other civil officers of his > administration." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:55:53 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: war (njc) kasey simpson wrote: > > Thanks, Kate, for pointing that out. Right after 9/11, one of the first > thoughts from Cheney was "Great. Now we can finally go after Iraq." > > > I didn't know you could read minds. The word "thoughts" was incorrect. The comments were reported in several places. I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that the comments passed through as thoughts before being blurted out, but maybe not. > Yes. People everywhere were in deep mourning, and Cheney and Rumsfeld > were focused on finally getting what they want. > > > How do you KNOW what their focus was on? It was reported what their focus was on. And, for all I know, that focusing on action was their way of coping rather than tearfully mourning as some people do. I'm not assuming they were happy about the loss of life here, although my comments may have come across as that. It does show there was already a plan in place regarding Iraq that they could latch onto, and that the WTC loss could be fit into that plan, and people's mourning about that played upon. And it has been. > Is it any wonder I do not trust their motives? > > > No, I don't wonder since you seem to be able to read minds, > > and know things that others don't. Thanks. People who know me best consider me an unusually perceptive person. How astute of you to notice. > He releases a tape in which he obliquely refers to Saddam, and the US > government doesn't try to hold back this tape as it has others (out of a > concern it's sending coded messages to sleeper cells) > > > This I am interested in, what tapes have been with held? Where > > can I read this? Last I knew of the tapes where released after > > the government agencies looked for coded messages. Condoleezza Rice, for one, was always concerned about the tapes and fought to keep them unreleased. But, you're right, by now we've probably seen them all. After they've been shown on Al Jazzeera, they're publicly available and can't be held back. This time there wasn't that kind of inner-circle struggle. Colin Powell publicized the recent tape before anyone else in the world did. > I would much prefer that Osama be sought and brought to justice (not > murdered outright because then he's a martyr, although I have a feeling > he'll arrange that somehow anyway), that Afghanistan be made safe and > rebuilt, and that US citizens be protected. > > > Ok, just for arguments sake, let's say he is in Iraq, then what > > do we do? Ask him to come out? Ask Saddam to send him over? > > What? Osama in Iraq? Now that would be convenient! After the mass bombing, we'll look for whatever bodies are still standing and I'd place a big bet that Saddam and Osama will be among them. That's assuming they remain in harm's way as most of the citizens will. Osama and Saddam probably won't even be there. Osama's already escaped one country's bombings and Saddam will be taking good care of himself also. > It's appalling that the frontline protectors in this country (police, firemen, > healthcare > workers) have not been given the money yet by Congress to get the > equipment and training needed to protect US citizens!!! And yet we're > being set up as targets for retaliation!!! Something's very very wrong > with that picture. > > > Now I agree with this. The problem is that the police aren't > > trusted or respected. After 9/11 I called my brother-in-law > > who was a police man (he's retired now) and ask him how > > it felt to be a cop, and respected. He said it felt damn good. Yes, I would think so. I've always seen firefighters as heroes. Their work is very clearcut. It's truly unfortunate that it's taken such horror to change my (and others') view about cops. I'm still a little uncomfortable being around them for any length of time since there's still their gun to keep in mind, but my view of them is not nearly as harsh as it once was. > THEN I could tolerate (and possibly > even trust) the claims being made about Iraq. > > > I doubt it. Thanks, Kasey. I think it's always a good idea to consider situations fully rather than accept whatever the "authorities" are saying. Glad to see you realize I'm consistent in that. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 17:29:43 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Oil guys (njc) or "Duke of Oil" In a message dated 14/02/2003 18:50:55 GMT Standard Time, kate@katebennett.com writes: << watching a war on tv (even writing this sentence sounds crazy...what a strange world we live in) has little to do with the realities of war... i think if anyone really wants to understand war, it is essential to listen to those who fought...here is a place to start http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/ >> There are some pictures in the Guardian today that show just how clean the last gulf war was. Anyone who chooses to believe that we can bomb a country and magically remove the people who run it with minimal "collateral damage" is naive at best. The bombs will incinerate people, destroy communities, maim and torture, make widows, widowers and orphans, multiply the misery of the Iraqi people, make even more people hate the USA and everything it does and stands for and disregard any good it may do. It will do NOTHING to curb terrorism, absolutely zero. It will have the opposite effect. These dubious claims of a terrorist threat will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I am sickened by what is happening. And I know this is my opinion, not "the truth." Those who are in favour of war, just remember that the same applies to you, and for Christ's sake stop telling us you're only going on "the facts". That's just a lie. Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 22:59:43 -0000 From: "Stephen Toogood" Subject: Re: How does Joni's music affect you? Joni Poem Joni's music moves me Makes me think Inspires me And forms pictures in my mind in colour ink Summer lawns or shooting stars Superman balloons and men from Mars She's been to Staten Island, Paris and L.A. Said "Life is for learning" The record industry is for burning And is now calling it a day You know it's a crying shame And I hope you return some day But I guess you've just been pushed too far Oh well if anybody wants me I'll be in the bar STEVE T - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 4:20 PM Subject: How does Joni's music affect you? > I've been wondering about why people listen to Joni,specifically how > does Joni's music affect you on an intellectual,emotional,physical,and > spiritual level? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:15:48 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: war (njc) kakki wrote: > For what it's worth (not much, I'm sure) here is an excerpt from the > CR from 1992 where John McCain rants on at length about some of the same > allegations that are being recycled now. > http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/congress/1992/s921001-iraq.htm This (really long) 'rant' by McCain blasts Gore and other Democrats for fabricating the notion that the US gave Hussein significant military and financial support, and points to Russia and various other nations as major suppliers of Hussein's military might. I do not pretend to have the knowledge neccesary to properly examine his assertations point by point. To view his evidence of the US support of Iraq, one would conclude that Gore's claim that Bush Sr. is responsible for Hussein's rise to power is about as reliable as his claim of inventing the internet. I wonder if there was a rebuttal in the Congressional Record to McCain's speech. However, the reason everything here looks good on paper is apparently this: Bush and Reagan shoveled arms and money to Iraq covertly. They call it Iraqgate. Howard Teicher was a staff member of the NSC in the early eighties, and in a sworn affidavit provides details about secret dealings between the State Dept and Iraq, much of which he was present for and witnessed. It is said that Iraqgate makes the Iran-Contra and Watergate scandals look like kid's play. In any case, there is alot of material that supports the claim that the US was directly strengthening Iraq's military might. Here is Teichers testimony: http://www.webcom.com/~lpease/collections/hidden/teicher.htm excerpt: 9. The CIA, including both CIA Director Casey and Deputy Director Gates, knew of, approved of, and assisted in the sale of non- U.S. origin military weapons, ammunition and vehicles to Iraq. My notes, memoranda and other documents in my NSC files show or tend to show that the CIA knew of, approved of, and assisted in the sale of non-U.S. origin military weapons, munitions and vehicles to Iraq. http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/02/12/13_iraq.html Alan Friedman is a respected journalist for the Financial Times who has won numerous awards for his correspondence. His book entitled, "Spider's Web: How the White House Illegally Armed Iraq" outlines the efforts of the Reagan and Bush administrations to supply Hussein with he most sophisticated weaponry. According to Friedman, President Reagan's special Middle East envoy, Donald Rumsfeld flew to Baghdad bearing a handwritten note to Saddam offering to renew diplomatic relations and to expand military and business ties. On November 26, 1984 diplomatic relations were restored. When Bush became president, he signed a waiver which said that prohibiting the sale of goods to Iraq were not in the best interests of the United States. Later, Bush signed a classified secret policy called National Security Directive 26 which encouraged U.S. oil companies to do business with Iraq. Friedman writes that "Bush was to provide strategic battlefield advice to Saddam through intermediaries who were heads of state." While touring the Middle East, supposedly to promote peace talks, Bush discussed with the Egyptian president how Iraq could most effectively bomb Iranian troops. This information was to be relayed to the Iraqis The Reagan/Bush administrations provided Saddam with satellite photos of Iranian troop movements and later helped them create their own system for downloading this information themselves. Friedman's book outlines how the Reagan/Bush administrations used criminal and corrupt banks such as the Atlanta Branch of the Banca Nazionale de Lavoro (BNL) to use American taxpayer dollars to assist Saddam and to export U.S. technology for "the Iraqi dictator's most cherished and lethal weapons projects." Money going for programs to arm Saddam were kept off the books and hidden from auditors. http://www.mike-warren.com/links/us-arming-of-iraq.html ``In 1982, Reagan "legalized" direct military assistance to Iraq. This resulted in more than a billion dollars in military related exports. According to Kenneth R. Timmerman (author of The Death Lobby: How the West Armed Iraq) the US government under Reagan and Bush sold Iraq 60 Hughes MD 500 "Defender" helicopters, eight Bell Textron AB 212 military helicopters equipped for anti-submarine warfare, 48 Bell Textron 214 ST utility helicopters (sold for "recreational" purposes), and US military infra-red sensors and thermal imaging scanners (sold illegally to Iraq through a Dutch company). After the Gulf War, the International Atomic Energy Agency found the following US equipment in Iraq: spectrometers, oscilloscopes, neutron initiators, [and most distubingly] high-speed switches for nuclear detonation, and other tools used to develop and manufacture nuclear weapons.'' `"One entire facility, a tungsten-carbide manufacturing plant that was part of the Al Atheer complex," Timmerman told the Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs, "was blown up by the IAEA in April 1992 because it lay at the heart of the Iraqi clandestine nuclear weapons program, PC-3. Equipment for this plant appears to have been supplied by the Latrobe, Pennsylvania manufacturer, Kennametal, and by a large number of other American companies, with financing provided by the Atlanta branch of the BNL bank."'' http://www.bullatomsci.org/issues/1992/s92/s92.reviews.html Timmerman describes in detail how U.S. government officials looked the other way as Saddam Hussein's regime received U.S. - -designed helicopters, howitzers, and cluster bombs through third parties such as Chilean arms dealer Carlos Cardoen and the South African government; as hundreds of millions of dollars worth of dual-use equipment, such as machine tools and advanced computers, were put to use in Iraqi missile and bomb factories; and as billions in U.S. government export credits helped Iraq defray the cost of a healthy proportion of its weapons procurement budget during the late 1980s. http://www.cjr.org/year/93/2/iraqgate.asp Columbia Journal Review Mar/April 1993 ABC News Nightline opened June 9 with words to make the heart stop. "It is becoming increasingly clear," said a grave Ted Koppel, "that George Bush, operating largely behind the scenes thoughout the 1980s, initiated and supported much of the financing, intelligence, and military help that built Saddam's Iraq into the agressive power that the United States ultimately had to destroy" ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #115 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)