From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #110 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, February 12 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 110 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- woodstock springboard [Thomas Ross ] NJC Heathrow ["Tamsin Lucas" ] Re: List NJC being a dog [colin ] Re: NJC Heathrow [colin ] Re: NJC Heathrow [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: NJC Heathrow ["Tamsin Lucas" ] Re: NJC Heathrow [sl.m@shaw.ca] feb 12!!!! njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: joni mitchell sings joni mitchell [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Query about Amelia [sl.m@shaw.ca] compuserve? NJC [Emily Gray Tedrowe ] Re: compuserve? NJC [sl.m@shaw.ca] war (njc) [anne@sandstrom.com] missile shield (njc) [anne@sandstrom.com] Re: Query about Amelia [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: Query about Amelia NJC [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: NJC Two great articles on war ["Lori Fye" ] Re: war (njc) ["kasey simpson" ] Re: compuserve? NJC ["kasey simpson" ] Re: How does Joni's music affect you? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: How does Joni's music affect you? [Susan Guzzi ] Re: war (njc) [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: war (njc) [Randy Remote ] Re: war (njc) [sl.m@shaw.ca] averting war NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: war (njc) protest [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: war (njc) [Susan Guzzi ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 03:47:45 -0500 (EST) From: Thomas Ross Subject: woodstock springboard can't find the original post about Woodstock versions, but I may as well add that I wrote a song from reharmonizing 'Woodstock' and incorporating some of JM's lyrics. You find interesting/convincing chords that fit the old melody, then make up a new melody based on the new chords. In this case I also used or altered some of JM's gorgeous endrhyme lyrics, which aficionados will recognize. In performance I plug in a verse/chorus from JM, which is startling and fresh because of the new harmony. "I'm the Song" Like a horse along the road shedding the weight and bridle I'm the song slipped from the case while your guitar was idle If you can sing yes to all that sadness I will enter you and stay all the life of my years and my days Like a fish that spawns upstream away from a sea of troubles I'm the song from the time of man when your guitar was able if you can sing yes . . . I'm the song from the time of man when your guitar was able if you can sing yes . . . [Mitchell verse/chorus] like a bird that take wing at last over the psychobabble I'm the song shot up in the sky and your guitar is liable if you can sing yes . . . * 'shot up in the sky' is my approximation of 'shotgun in the sky' which I couldn't fit gracefully. TR Tom Ross Mijazi Music (518) 372-2611 http://www.tom.rossweb.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:10:58 +0000 From: "Tamsin Lucas" Subject: NJC Heathrow Driving up off the M4 this morning into Slough and there are police everywhere, I guess as we are in the Heathrow flight path. Apparently there is an increased police presence everywhere in the flight path - what with this and the army at the airport it makes me wonder what they know. Heard some police chief say something about a "specific threat" and then withdraw that statement. Not feeling too safe this morning at my desk... _________________________________________________________________ Overloaded with spam? With MSN 8, you can filter it out http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&pgmarket=en-gb&XAPID=32&DI=1059 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:13:11 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: List NJC being a dog there is nothing wrong with you dog. dogs are just disgusting. Catherine McKay wrote: > --- colin wrote: > > > >>you have a disgusting dog. >>you definately have a disgusting dog.... >> >> > >Big help YOU are! I thought you were the pundit of all >things doggy. I already knew I had a disgusting dog; I >just assumed they were all like that. > >===== >Catherine >Toronto > >______________________________________________________________________ >Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:16:48 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: NJC Heathrow there has been talk of a 'rocket attack' at heathrow. 400 troops are there since 6am yesterday. John is flyin to Minniapolis froom there. really wish he wasn't. Tamsin Lucas wrote: > Driving up off the M4 this morning into Slough and there are police > everywhere, I guess as we are in the Heathrow flight path. > Apparently there is an increased police presence everywhere in the > flight path - what with this and the army at the airport it makes me > wonder what they know. Heard some police chief say something about a > "specific threat" and then withdraw that statement. > Not feeling too safe this morning at my desk... > > _________________________________________________________________ > Overloaded with spam? With MSN 8, you can filter it out > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&pgmarket=en-gb&XAPID=32&DI=1059 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 03:26:15 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: NJC Heathrow Tamsin, there's a specific threat from a terrorist cell with links to al-Qaeda - they apparently intend to blow up an aircraft leaving or arriving at Heathrow using a ground-to-air missile. The threat is said to be serious and specific, so Tony Blair has authorized the deployment of the army as well as counter-terrorist police around the airport. Sarah At 9:10 AM +0000 02/12/2003, Tamsin Lucas wrote: >Driving up off the M4 this morning into Slough and there are police >everywhere, I guess as we are in the Heathrow flight path. >Apparently there is an increased police presence everywhere in the >flight path - what with this and the army at the airport it makes me >wonder what they know. Heard some police chief say something about a >"specific threat" and then withdraw that statement. >Not feeling too safe this morning at my desk... > >_________________________________________________________________ >Overloaded with spam? With MSN 8, you can filter it out >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&pgmarket=en-gb&XAPID=32&DI=1059 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:41:53 +0000 From: "Tamsin Lucas" Subject: Re: NJC Heathrow Thanks Sarah, I feel much better now!! ;-) I guess they must have pretty hard intelligence to do this, I just wonder what difference police presence makes - does it just show any potential terrorists we're prepared & ready? Colin - it's horrible having to worry about such things, it all seems much more immediate at the moment and close to home. I am flying next month but going from Stansted. I never used to be scared of flying but I can't say I feel that way anymore - I guess many people feel the same way this last eyar or so. > >Tamsin, there's a specific threat from a terrorist cell with links to >al-Qaeda - they apparently intend to blow up an aircraft leaving or >arriving at Heathrow using a ground-to-air missile. The threat is said to >be serious and specific, so Tony Blair has authorized the deployment of the >army as well as counter-terrorist police around the airport. _________________________________________________________________ Stay in touch with MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 03:54:01 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: NJC Heathrow Tamsin, I'm so glad I've brightened your morning. ;-) I think the police presence is there to make sure the terrorists can't get into place with the weapon. The group is believed to have Stinger missiles or similar, and these couldn't hit a plane at altitude (so far as I know) - it would have to be on take-off or landing, so police have thrown a cordon around the airport, and are stopping cars several miles away, to protect incoming and outgoing aircraft by making sure none of the cars they stop have Stinger missiles inside them! Do you remember when the IRA launched a missile at 10 Downing Street from the back of a van? Unbelievable. John Major, Douglas Hurd etc at a cabinet meeting, suddenly - window breaks behind them, all hell breaks loose outside, someone rushes in "It's the IRA!", so they very calmly decide to hold their meeting in another room. End of story! Only in Britain . . . ;-) Sarah At 9:41 AM +0000 02/12/2003, Tamsin Lucas wrote: >Thanks Sarah, I feel much better now!! ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 08:35:02 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: feb 12!!!! njc happy birthday nikki!!! love, wally ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 07:51:13 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: joni mitchell sings joni mitchell In a message dated 2/12/2003 12:39:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, guitarzan@direcpc.com writes: > Was it old BBC footage? Jonified minds > want to know> "Joni Mitchell Sings Joni Mitchell" is the official title of the BBC broadcast that is more commonly referred to as the "Pink Dress Concert". Evian said that there were 5 songs, which would mean that this recent broadcast presented a portion of the original which was about twice that. Bob NP: Joe Jackson, "Is She Really Going Out With Him?" Rockpalast 1983 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 07:13:18 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Query about Amelia I've been listening to Amelia obsessively since I bought Travelogue - I liked it before but I love this version. Can anyone tell me what they understand by "Amelia, it was just a false alarm"? I understand that it's a reference to Amelia Earhart, and courage in the face of loss (or loss because of too much courage/wanderlust) but I can't pin down the specific line "it was just a false alarm". Does she mean "I got it wrong again?" As in: "Maybe I've never really loved/I guess that is the truth/I've spent my whole life in clouds at icy altitude/And looking down on everything/I crashed into his arms/Amelia, it was just a false alarm." A kind of "Send in the Clowns"? Did anyone see Shirley MacLaine perform that? Anyone who has a soul should see her sing it. Most heartbreaking Joni lines: "I wish that he was here tonight It's so hard to obey His sad request of me to kindly stay away" Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:06:07 -0500 From: Emily Gray Tedrowe Subject: compuserve? NJC hi joni list. i have a computer/internet service. i'm looking for a cheap, basic internet service provider (we used to have highspeed, but our new building isn't wired for it yet). so i need to use a dial-up access, a modem that i think is 56K, and i want a good-priced monthly deal for unlimited internet... and i'm scared of AOL! (or should i not be?) any suggestions? i tried earthlink, but they apparently don't have any access numbers in my area (chicago). so now i'm looking into compuserve...they offer 1 month free (700 hours) and then 19.95 for unlimited monthly usage. is that a good deal? anyone like or detest compuserve? anything i should know? i'm totally clueless about this stuff, so i appreciate any advice--i know there are lots of internet whizzes on the list...thanks for the off-topic help! - -- emily, in chicago (33 weeks pregnant and feeling fine! still on schedule for april 1) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 08:33:10 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: compuserve? NJC Emily, I can't help with the ISP, but good luck with the (infinitely more important) pregnancy! All the best for April 1st! Sarah At 9:06 AM -0500 02/12/2003, Emily Gray Tedrowe wrote: >i'm looking for a cheap, basic internet service provider (we used to >have highspeed, but our new building isn't wired for it yet). so i >need to use a dial-up access, a modem that i think >is 56K, and i want a good-priced monthly deal for unlimited >internet...and i'm scared of AOL! >-- emily, in chicago >(33 weeks pregnant and feeling fine! still on schedule for april 1) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 06:43:46 -0800 (PST) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: war (njc) Sarah wrote: I'm in favour of the war (so long as there's an intention to fight it with minimal loss of life, I've been just skimming a lot of digests after being away for a few days, but this caught my eye. I have to say that this shows a real lack of understanding of the horror and real destruction of war. "No tanks have ever rumbled through these streets." Aren't we (in the U.S.) lucky? You do admit to being something of an armchair soldier in a later post, Sarah. Being more than an arm's length away from the destruction and death makes it much easier to advocate war. It's remote. It's facelss. It's nameless. And that's what we see on tv, images of laser guided missiles finding targets on a screen, much like a video game. It's neat and clean and bloodless. War is about burnt flesh that smells somthing like bbq'd meat. It's about maimed children and orphans. It's about facing the terror of 9/11 every day. It's about destroying the infrastructure of a country. I believe unequivocally that this proposed war is absolutely, completely senseless. I stand by a previous statement. It's about the oil. Period. If we were so morally high and mighty, we'd be in many other countries in droves. I'll use my favorite example - Sudan. We don't give a rat's ass about the atrocities there because they don't have a single thing we want. I can't stand Saddam Hussein or what he does in Iraq. I want that to end. But war isn't the way to do it. It's like cutting off the hand of a theif. You wind up with someone who's pissed off and disabled. In this case we'd be cutting off the hand of Iraq, rendering it even more disgruntled and crippled. I believe the solution is education, education, education. And that takes time. I, for one, am willing to be persistent AND patient. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 06:49:20 -0800 (PST) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: missile shield (njc) Kakki wrote: It's one thing to say you are against this system, but it is not right to say it either doesn't exist or doesn't work. Thousands of people in SoCal and a few other cities have been working on it for too many years to say that. Well, thousands of people have worked for years on the space shuttle, too. Technology that's very complex often contains complex problems and errors. Just because a lot of people are involved doesn't mean it works. From what I understand, it doesn't and can't work, because of design flaws. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 08:53:01 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Query about Amelia Sorry, was drunk when I wrote this. ;-) Sarah >From: sl.m@shaw.ca >Did anyone see Shirley MacLaine perform that? Anyone who >has a soul should see her sing it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 10:22:57 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Query about Amelia NJC In a message dated 2/12/2003 9:53:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, sl.m@shaw.ca writes: > Sorry, was drunk when I wrote this. ;-) > Sarah, as one lister posted a couple of years ago (who was it?) FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS POST DRUNK ! LOL Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 07:43:38 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: NJC Two great articles on war Colin wrote: > i find this very difficult to believe..., we are going to invade Iraq > and have no loss of life? Bombs that don't kill? The people will just > surrender? the army will? mmmm.. maybe we think these people have no > brains..... > > or the people telling us this think we have no brains.... These would be the same people who thought they could buy our votes with a $300 tax rebate ... Lori, who isn't on the plane quite yet ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 10:57:33 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: war (njc) In a message dated 12/02/2003 14:45:04 GMT Standard Time, anne@sandstrom.com writes: << I believe unequivocally that this proposed war is absolutely, completely senseless. I stand by a previous statement. It's about the oil. Period. If we were so morally high and mighty, we'd be in many other countries in droves. I'll use my favorite example -Sudan. We don't give a rat's ass about the atrocities there because they don't have a single thing we want. >> Anne, I'd like to chime in and state that I am entirely in agreement with you here. I believe that the arguments in favour of war are mere rationalisations of a more atavistic urge; and of a greed for control. I am sickened by the UK government's craven capitulation to the sweeping tide of warmongering, and unpersuaded by the cries of terrorist threats to the UK and supposed Iraqi connection with them. One of the first rules about manufacturing consent is to create a climate of fear. Tell people they're in mortal danger from a shadowy enemy and they'll go along with whatever you want. Only thing is, the people aren't swallowing this one - despite a pretty much universal revulsion at Saddam Hussein and all his works, I've talked to very few people here who are in favour of the war (and that includes conservatives, with small and large "c"), and by contrast, the anti-war march on Saturday looks set to attract hundreds of thousands of people. Why don't we trust our government(s)? Well, there's that "dossier" on Iraq that turned out to be largely based on a decade-old Phd paper; then there are incidents like the one below, which I was sent by my Uncle, a retired submarine commander in the Pakistan army. Apologies to anyone who is offended by his general comments about the USA, which I could have edited out, but decided not to. Here we go then: you couldn't make it up... << You may not believe what happened this morning at sea when we were returning from a trip to other Gulf countries. To tell you the truth I would not have believed if I was told this. But this really did happen while I was on the bridge of the Bahrain Navy missile boat. Our boat is 62 meter long we have one gun forward and one aft. In the midships we have four exocet missile launchers and a helicopter deck aft of the missile launchers. We saw a USN ship at about 8 miles in clear visibility at 0800 and identified it as cruiser Bunkerhill. She too was going toward Bahrain and we were 5 miles from the fairway buoy. There was no other ship in sight. The cruiser was asking the port authorities about pilot boarding her to enter harbour. We had not contacted the port as yet. The port authorities asked Bunkerhill if she could identify a ship near her. We were about one mile from Bunkerhill at that time. Bunkerhill told the port control that there was a commercial vessel close to her!!!!!! I just burst out laughing so did the rest of the bridge staff. We immediately called the port and identified ourselves. I wish I were on the bridge of that idiot ship to see their reaction (If there was any!). I thought only the general public in US was ignorant. And these idiots have weapons of mass destruction and are allowed not only to keep them but use them too. Funny world this! Allah be praised. >> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:58:05 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: war (njc) I take your point about being an armchair soldier, and agree with it. But the Pentagon says this will be a new type of warfare - a war against infrastructure, not people. I can't know whether that's true, but their descriptions make sense, and it does seem possible. Don't you remember the search in the 60s/70s for the bomb that would kill people, but leave buildings standing? Well, these bombs do the opposite. The American plan is to take out the first two tiers of Iraqi leadership in all government departments, but otherwise to leave things as they are. The aim is to take over the country with virtually no loss of innocent life, rule it for one year, then hold elections. Did Osama bin Laden intend minimal loss of life when he attacked New York? Did Saddam intend it when he gassed the Kurds? Our intentions, unlike theirs, are decent. I believe that -- no matter how ridiculous it may sound to a small number of you. Those of you who say 'it's about oil' should spell out what you mean. It has turned into a chant that no-one understands. What is it about the Iraqi people that makes them unworthy of being liberated? How many of you who are anti-war have spent time with one single Iraqi in your entire lives? Please - meet them, speak to them, learn. They are desperate. I don't know what Churchill's motive was when he pushed Britain into a war against Germany. I do know that he ended up liberating the people in the concentration camps. So who cares what he intended? As Joni said, who cares what the song meant for me - what does it mean for you? Authorial intention is dead. If George Bush wants oil, let him have it. Who cares? All that matters, IMO, is that the people of Iraq are liberated. Those of you who oppose this war should suggest a viable alternative. You can't criticize war then turn your heads away, avert your gaze from the terrible suffering of the Iraqi people. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children have been killed because of sanctions. But we can't NOT have sanctions, because Saddam is using the money to rebuild a horrific military infrastructure. So what do we do, if not overthrow him militarily? I was working for a large news organization during the first Gulf War and we had this man come to us - an Iraqi engineer - and he requested an interview. He had just escaped from Baghdad, and he wanted to tell his story, so he came to the office and we talked. His story was "please do something about Saddam, you don't know how evil he is", and I said " but what do you mean, we're fighting a war with him, we're doing something!". He fell on his knees, in my office, crying, saying no, you're going to leave him in power. And he told me some stories about what it's like to live in Iraq, how there is no freedom - - NONE - of thought, speech or assembly. And I don't think any of us can even imagine it. When someone is sitting in front of you telling those stories, all you can do is bow your head in shame. This particular man had his wife and 14-year-old daughter raped in front of him because he was an engineer with special knowledge, and the rapes were a warning - don't go abroad with your secrets, or even worse than this will happen. Thanks to Iraqi opposition groups in London - the very ones the CIA now doubts! - he and his family escaped, and so he approached Western news agencies with his story, thinking (naively!!) if he talked about the horrors, we'd somehow get the news out - "get rid of Saddam". Recite your anti-war slogans in front of this man, not me. The Iraqi people are known within the Arab world as being like New Yorkers. They're stubborn, opinionated, educated, proud, with a thorough knowledge of their own history. They deserve to be liberated, and I honestly can't see why anyone would deny them this for the sake of anti-war rhetoric. It's like forming an opinion about Joni Mitchell without ever having listened to her. Just as it's possible to be an armchair warrior, it's also possible to be an ignorant peace campaigner. Sarah At 6:43 AM -0800 02/12/2003, anne@sandstrom.com wrote: >I believe unequivocally that this proposed war is >absolutely, completely senseless. I stand by a previous >statement. It's about the oil. Period. If we were so >morally high and mighty, we'd be in many other >countries in droves. I'll use my favorite example - >Sudan. We don't give a rat's ass about the atrocities >there because they don't have a single thing we want. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:59:03 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Query about Amelia NJC Yeah, but no-one managed to stop me, Jimmy. ;-) Sarah At 10:22 AM -0500 02/12/2003, FMYFL@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 2/12/2003 9:53:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, >sl.m@shaw.ca writes: > >>Sorry, was drunk when I wrote this. ;-) >> > > >Sarah, as one lister posted a couple of years ago (who was it?) > >FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS POST DRUNK ! LOL > >Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 10:07:28 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: war (njc) So what? Most of the Athenian assembly believed that Socrates should be put to death for corrupting the young. They were the majority, but they were also wrong. Majoritarianism doesn't make you right. Sarah At 10:57 AM -0500 02/12/2003, AzeemAK@aol.com wrote: >I've talked to very >few people here who are in favour of the war (and that includes >conservatives, with small and large "c"), and by contrast, the anti-war march >on Saturday looks set to attract hundreds of thousands of people. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:20:22 EST From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: How does Joni's music affect you? I've been wondering about why people listen to Joni,specifically how does Joni's music affect you on an intellectual,emotional,physical,and spiritual level? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:00:27 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: How does Joni's music affect you? For me, Jon's music is pure poetry and each of her songs speaks to a particular stage of my life. Physically and emotionally, she makes me cry, sometimes bawl. Even though I often can't understand her intellectually, I feel I can understand her emotionally. As I said in an earlier post today, I'm playing Amelia from Travelogue obsessively at the moment. " I tell Amelia, it was just a false alarm", speaks of expectations that were wrong-headed, false, silly, premature, embarrassing. "I crashed into his arms . . . Amelia, it was just a false alarm." The great thing about Joni Mitchell is her humanity, the mistakes she's made and the mistakes she understands -- and sometimes her understanding of human frailty is overwhelming. It's like being with a Platonic ideal of Mother. It makes me think that humiliation and "getting it wrong" have been an all-too-large part of her life. Sarah At 11:20 AM -0500 02/12/2003, Relayer211@aol.com wrote: > I've been wondering about why people listen to Joni,specifically how >does Joni's music affect you on an intellectual,emotional,physical,and >spiritual level? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:19:11 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: compuserve? NJC Be very afraid of AOL! I just don't understand their success! They suck!!!! But would also like to hear about compuserve, as I was just thinking about signing on with earthlink - just for my home account. But I'm in Chicago too, so now I'm leary, as well. Emily I had no idea - Congrats! We'll be waiting too! Peace, Susan - --- Emily Gray Tedrowe wrote: > hi joni list. i have a computer/internet service. i'm looking for a cheap, > basic internet service provider (we used to have highspeed, but our new building > isn't wired for it yet). so i need to use a dial-up access, a modem that i think > is 56K, and i want a good-priced monthly deal for unlimited internet... > and i'm scared of AOL! (or should i not be?) > > any suggestions? i tried earthlink, but they apparently don't have any access > numbers in my area (chicago). so now i'm looking into compuserve...they > offer 1 month free (700 hours) and then 19.95 for unlimited monthly usage. > is that a good deal? anyone like or detest compuserve? anything i should > know? > > i'm totally clueless about this stuff, so i appreciate any advice--i know > there are lots of internet whizzes on the list...thanks for the off-topic help! > > -- emily, in chicago > (33 weeks pregnant and feeling fine! still on schedule for april 1) Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 12:34:39 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Re: war (njc) Sarah, People have made up their minds, and then closed them. I'm sure you, as have I, wanted a peaceful end to this, but that option no longer seems posible. Just yesturday four men were arrested in Ohio for threats agaist Wright Patterson Air Force Base. All their visas had expired. At the least they will be deported. I don't live far from that base. On Tuesday my brother and sister-in-law had their first baby, a girl. They live in Fla. and I truly think sometimes I may never see her, or she may not ever know the freedoms I have known. I hate war. I hate the thought of killing, or being killed. But through all I have read, whatched, heard, and seen it is a just war. Waiting is only going to give Saddam more time to prepare, and him more time to kill his own people. What seems funny to me is we are condemed for turning a blind eye to child abuse, spousal abuse, and rape in this country, and them condemed for trying to free another country. Some states have what is called a simaritan law, where as if you see a crime and don't report it (ie child abuse) you can be held accountable. I happen to like that law. When the man was shooting people at gas stations in D.C no one here would blame any one for killing him on the spot. But kill thousands and we should try reasoning with him? That makes no since to me. Saying I support the war effort does not mean that I think the Jonh Wayne way is the answer, go in with gus blazzing, and shoot every thing in sight. Loss of life will happen, but to what degree? It sounds like this has been thought out. Do you know where the Iraqi man is today? That was a moving story, thanks for posting it. Kasey P.S Note to Kakki, sorry Kakki but Sarah has moved into your spot, but I still love you ;) I take your point about being an armchair soldier, and agree with it. But the Pentagon says this will be a new type of warfare - a war against infrastructure, not people. I can't know whether that's true, but their descriptions make sense, and it does seem possible. Don't you remember the search in the 60s/70s for the bomb that would kill people, but leave buildings standing? Well, these bombs do the opposite. The American plan is to take out the first two tiers of Iraqi leadership in all government departments, but otherwise to leave things as they are. The aim is to take over the country with virtually no loss of innocent life, rule it for one year, then hold elections. Did Osama bin Laden intend minimal loss of life when he attacked New York? Did Saddam intend it when he gassed the Kurds? Our intentions, unlike theirs, are decent. I believe that -- no matter how ridiculous it may sound to a small number of you. Those of you who say 'it's about oil' should spell out what you mean. It has turned into a chant that no-one understands. What is it about the Iraqi people that makes them unworthy of being liberated? How many of you who are anti-war have spent time with one single Iraqi in your entire lives? Please - meet them, speak to them, learn. They are desperate. I don't know what Churchill's motive was when he pushed Britain into a war against Germany. I do know that he ended up liberating the people in the concentration camps. So who cares what he intended? As Joni said, who cares what the song meant for me - what does it mean for you? Authorial intention is dead. If George Bush wants oil, let him have it. Who cares? All that matters, IMO, is that the people of Iraq are liberated. Those of you who oppose this war should suggest a viable alternative. You can't criticize war then turn your heads away, avert your gaze from the terrible suffering of the Iraqi people. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children have been killed because of sanctions. But we can't NOT have sanctions, because Saddam is using the money to rebuild a horrific military infrastructure. So what do we do, if not overthrow him militarily? I was working for a large news organization during the first Gulf War and we had this man come to us - an Iraqi engineer - and he requested an interview. He had just escaped from Baghdad, and he wanted to tell his story, so he came to the office and we talked. His story was "please do something about Saddam, you don't know how evil he is", and I said " but what do you mean, we're fighting a war with him, we're doing something!". He fell on his knees, in my office, crying, saying no, you're going to leave him in power. And he told me some stories about what it's like to live in Iraq, how there is no freedom - - NONE - of thought, speech or assembly. And I don't think any of us can even imagine it. When someone is sitting in front of you telling those stories, all you can do is bow your head in shame. This particular man had his wife and 14-year-old daughter raped in front of him because he was an engineer with special knowledge, and the rapes were a warning - don't go abroad with your secrets, or even worse than this will happen. Thanks to Iraqi opposition groups in London - the very ones the CIA now doubts! - he and his family escaped, and so he approached Western news agencies with his story, thinking (naively!!) if he talked about the horrors, we'd somehow get the news out - "get rid of Saddam". Recite your anti-war slogans in front of this man, not me. The Iraqi people are known within the Arab world as being like New Yorkers. They're stubborn, opinionated, educated, proud, with a thorough knowledge of their own history. They deserve to be liberated, and I honestly can't see why anyone would deny them this for the sake of anti-war rhetoric. It's like forming an opinion about Joni Mitchell without ever having listened to her. Just as it's possible to be an armchair warrior, it's also possible to be an ignorant peace campaigner. Sarah At 6:43 AM -0800 02/12/2003, anne@sandstrom.com wrote: >I believe unequivocally that this proposed war is >absolutely, completely senseless. I stand by a previous >statement. It's about the oil. Period. If we were so >morally high and mighty, we'd be in many other >countries in droves. I'll use my favorite example - >Sudan. We don't give a rat's ass about the atrocities >there because they don't have a single thing we want.Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 12:45:13 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Re: compuserve? NJC I had earthlink, and it was OK. I switched to MSN when my rom drive went out becaue they gave a $200 shopping card to Best Buy, where I biught my rom. My brother has compuserve, but is not happy with it. He is switching to MSN. My sister, and one of my best friends has world net from ATT and they both like that one. Kasey But would also like to hear about compuserve, as I was just thinking about signing on with earthlink - just for my home account. But I'm in Chicago too, so now I'm leary, as well. Emily I had no idea - Congrats! We'll be waiting too! Peace, SusanGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 12:54:39 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: How does Joni's music affect you? intellectual - Sometimes I can just marvel at her skill as a lyricist, at the way she can write an entire song entirely free of cliche. And also the melodic & harmonic patterns of her music are intellectually inspiring. She draws from SO many references within the world of the arts, history, philosophy, geographry...it's amazing. She makes me feel so stupid sometimes. emotional - As I'm sure we can all state, there are songs or passages of songs, or even whole albums that are very personal to us; that is, we have been along the same paths as Joni and can laugh, cry and think along with what she's saying. Sometimes when things aren't working out, it's a comfort to listen to Joni and realize that these mis-connections and human flaws are part of everyone's life. physical - Don't know much about how her music affects me in a physical way, except that there are times when her songs stop me dead in my tracks. As a general rule, her music is not what I play for background music because it always draws focus. spiritual - Her music is spiritually inspiring to me because Joni constantly presents herself as someone who remains on a spiritual path, seeking truth and beauty. Like I said above, her spirituality draws from many sources and is truly hers, not just her accepting some dogma en masse. It helps to make her art more genuine. Hope that's some of what you're looking for Relayer. How would YOU answer your own question? Bob NP: Joe Jackson, "Time" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:58:08 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: How does Joni's music affect you? I think initially there is a bit of an intellectual affect, - well we're smart enough to like Joni - - right? But it's mostly emotional for me early on. I can still remember putting Blue on for the very first time and standing in front of and over the "Hi-Fi" and swooning and feeling goosebumps. And yes sufferring from teen angst, I was often depressed and listened to her even more, wondering if that was a good idea sometimes!? But I felt like I had found my mentor. I think someone here once said it was depressing but that was what saved them/me and soothed us, as well. It was like being petted. Then once I had an understanding of Joni, and felt really into her, it did move to being a spiritual experience and finally to a deeper understanding and higher intellect, which of course we all share here. I listen to Joni - to sing with her, I listen still for my mood, and I listen still to hear something new or connect with a different part of her canvas. That's the transition and how it played and still plays out for me. - --- Relayer wrote: I've been wondering about why people listen to Joni,specifically how does Joni's music affect you on an intellectual,emotional,physical,and spiritual level? Peace, Susan Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:21:49 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: compuserve? NJC Emily writes: << i'm scared of AOL! (or should i not be?) >> Be very afraid, especially if you want to receive e-mail from Wally in Argentina. << now i'm looking into compuserve...they offer 1 month free (700 hours) and then 19.95 for unlimited monthly usage. is that a good deal? >> I don't know anything about that, but I have been seeing TV commercials for a company called Netzero (netzero.com) for $9.95 per month. Anyone know anything about them? Have a nice baby! One of my best friends is named Emily and she just told me yesterday that she is expecting her first baby in September! (She also asked me not to tell anyone. Oh, well . . .) --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:26:56 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Query about Amelia NJC Jimmy writes: << Sarah, as one lister posted a couple of years ago (who was it?) FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS POST DRUNK ! LOL >> That would be Alison, Jimmy. And I'll always be in her debt for the edit she did on my drunken post from Ashara's music room during Jonifest '01. Love you, Alison! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:39:48 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: How does Joni's music affect you? - NJC Joni's music always makes me think of circumcision and death taxes and moles with hair in them. I just love her. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 12:48:39 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: war (njc) Kasey, I am so non-John-Wayne-like, you wouldn't believe it. I don't even kill insects. I was a vegetarian for 20 years and a very strict vegan for 10. Canadians have this thing they do with trees - they wrap yellow tape round it and it kills the caterpillars that live in the trees, so they don't dangle into people's hair in the spring (how silly is that?) So I go around pulling the tape off - liberating caterpillars! But because I support the liberation of Iraqis, some of whom I know as friends, I'm suddenly a rightwing fascist warmonger! It just makes me want to leave the West and go live somewhere else, because I think we've lost all sense of morality, maybe because life is too easy or something. Maybe it's like all empires (Roman, Athenian, Egyptian, Ottoman, British, American) - you reach a certain point of education and ease of lifestyle, and you burn out because you've forgotten what life is about. I keep thinking of Charles Dickens - "This boy is Ignorance. This girl is Want. Beware them both, and all of their degree, but most of all, beware this boy . . ." Sarah At 12:34 PM -0600 02/12/2003, kasey simpson wrote: >Sarah, >People have made up their minds, and then closed them. >I'm sure you, as have I, wanted a peaceful end to this, >but that option no longer seems posible . . . Saying I support >the war effort does not mean that I think the Jonh Wayne way is the >answer, go in with gus blazzing, and shoot every thing in sight. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 10:48:53 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: war (njc) > , and by contrast, the anti-war march > on Saturday looks set to attract hundreds of thousands of people. Nice post, Azeem. You're saying there are anti war marches in the UK this weekend, too? They are scheduled in major cities all over the US, too. I find it an amazingly convienient coincidence that we are getting all these warnings targeting the very day that these protests, which may very well be the largest in recent history, are taking place. Peaceniks, stay home! Watch sports! Take prozac! (Or Duff beer) What a coup for the hawks if something does happen. A bunch of war resisters would be killed, the bad guys would be really, unquestionalbly evil, and opposition to military action would be broken. On the other hand, why would the Iraqis or Al Queda want to weaken anti war efforts? They wouldn't. Fishy if you ask me. RR ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:05:28 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: war (njc) On September 11 2001, the bad guys were "really unquestionably evil", as you put it. The same network is still functioning. They don't give a stuff about anti-war campaigning. You should take a look at the Baader-Meinholf gang in Germany in the 70s for an example of a terrorist group seeking to maximize social disruption. Sarah At 10:48 AM -0800 02/12/2003, Randy Remote wrote: > > A bunch of war resisters would be killed, the bad guys would be really, >unquestionalbly evil, and opposition to military action would be >broken. On the other hand, why would the Iraqis or Al Queda want to >weaken anti war efforts? They wouldn't. >Fishy if you ask me. >RR ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:09:14 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: war (njc) sl.m@shaw.ca wrote: > But the Pentagon says this will be a new type of warfare - a war > against infrastructure, not people. I can't know whether that's > true, but their descriptions make sense, It sounds better than "we're going to wipe out countless civilians". Propaganda is real. > The aim is to take over the country with > virtually no loss of innocent life, rule it for one year, then hold > elections. The rule is that you will not find out what really happens for 10 years. Vietnam and Iraq War I showed that without a doubt. http://www.rense.com/general34/STUPID.HTM Lies. Like the new information about the Patriot missiles that the U.S. has sold to practically every country that wanted one. During the first Gulf War massacre, the Pentagon claimed a 100 percent kill-ratio against those evil Scud missiles launched by Saddam. Now the news is the Patriot missiles never hit a single Scud, or that the kill-ratio was somewhere in the range of 7 percent, at best. > > Did Osama bin Laden intend minimal loss of life when he attacked New > York? Did Saddam intend it when he gassed the Kurds? > > Our intentions, unlike theirs, are decent. I believe that -- no > matter how ridiculous it may sound to a small number of you. They believe their cause is just, too. The ends justify the means. > What is it about the Iraqi people that makes them unworthy of being > liberated? What makes us the liberators, though, and where do we stop? Probably half the world is under some form of violent oppression. Do we bomb or lead by example? That is the challenge. "You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace" (Spearhead) RR ps just heard about a leaked document that outlines Pentagon plans in which the Iraq invasion is the beginning of a 30 year military strategy to gain control in the middle east. I will look into this and post what I find. Do you really think they give a fig about the people of Iraq??? Really??? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:19:53 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: war (njc) Randy, it isn't true that the Patriots didn't hit a single scud during the first Gulf War. I know the lead researcher on that news story. There were misses - you're right about that - but also a large percentage of hits. You ask whether I think the Americans give a fig about the Iraqi people. I tried to answer that before. I don't think it matters what 'they' intend. If their actions result in the liberation of Iraq, then a good thing will have emerged from their intentions, whatever they are. I don't care about intentions - I care only about results. If you're lying in a torture chamber, Randy, you're not going to give two shits about the intentions of the people who come to rescue you, so long as they do rescue you. Yes, propaganda is real. It can also be true. Sarah At 11:09 AM -0800 02/12/2003, Randy Remote wrote: >Propaganda is real. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:38:06 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: averting war NJC sarah >>But if the German plan comes to anything, it might just be possible to avoid it all.<< this is my great hope...i saw news clip of the pope in baghdad last night...it is the first time i ever cheered for the pope...lol...as far as a 'bloodless' war is concerned, here is an excerpt from a letter written by Charles Sheehan-Miles, one of the founders of http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/ "Twelve years ago, in February of 1991, I crossed the border between Saudi Arabia and Iraq with the 24th Infantry Division. Back then I was a 20-year-old Abrams tank crewman, and I fought in several battles in southern Iraq. I can say from personal experience, the media got it wrong. The first Gulf War wasn't clean, it wasn't pretty, and it wasn't precise. In the chaos and destruction of battle, anything can happen. We killed a lot of people. Like many of the men and women I served with, I do not believe that President Bush or Secretary of State Powell, in his presentation at the United Nations on Wednesday, has made the case that Iraq poses an imminent threat to the United States. Without proving imminent threat, the administration has failed outright to justify its rush to war. Many senior military leaders, including Generals Norman Schwarzkopf, Anthony Zinni and Wesley Clark, have all questioned the wisdom of another war with Iraq. Thousands of veterans of all U.S. wars have stepped forward, marched in demonstrations and raised their voices to say that the nation they defended should not be attacking other nations. There is no sense of just cause in the U.S. armed forces today. Most recently we veterans have been joined in our message by families with loved ones in the military." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 14:52:11 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: war (njc) protest Randy Remote wrote: (try saying that fast 3 times) > Nice post, Adeem. You're saying there are anti war marches in > the UK this weekend, too? They are scheduled in major cities all > over the US, too. > Did any one see the 750 naked women in Australia that formed the words NO WAR surrounded by a heart? I guess it got the attention of the Prime Minister. See article and photo at: http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/auspac/02/09/australia.nude.reut/ I'm sure Aussie jmdler John Low was looking from afar with his binocculars :~) Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 12:23:21 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: war (njc) Hey Anne, I just wanted to say this is a wonderful perspective to present for all of our consideration. It's so true you just can't dress it up any way you look at it. I know sometimes it is inevitable and/or unavoidable - I just fail to see that in this situation. And all over thw world right now there is more and more tension because of our threat and I wish we as a nation would be all that we can be for real. Thanks Anne. Peace, Susan I have to say that this shows a real lack of understanding of the > horror and real destruction of war. "No tanks have ever > rumbled through these streets." Aren't we (in the U.S.) > lucky? You do admit to being something of an armchair > soldier in a later post, Sarah. Being more than an > arm's length away from the destruction and death makes > it much easier to advocate war. It's remote. It's > facelss. It's nameless. And that's what we see on tv, > images of laser guided missiles finding targets on a > screen, much like a video game. It's neat and clean and > bloodless. > > War is about burnt flesh that smells somthing like > bbq'd meat. It's about maimed children and orphans. > It's about facing the terror of 9/11 every day. It's > about destroying the infrastructure of a country. > > I believe unequivocally that this proposed war is > absolutely, completely senseless. I stand by a previous > statement. It's about the oil. Period. If we were so > morally high and mighty, we'd be in many other > countries in droves. I'll use my favorite example - > Sudan. We don't give a rat's ass about the atrocities > there because they don't have a single thing we want. > > I can't stand Saddam Hussein or what he does in Iraq. I > want that to end. But war isn't the way to do it. It's > like cutting off the hand of a theif. You wind up with > someone who's pissed off and disabled. In this case > we'd be cutting off the hand of Iraq, rendering it even > more disgruntled and crippled. I believe the solution > is education, education, education. And that takes > time. I, for one, am willing to be persistent AND > patient. > lots of love > Anne Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #110 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)