From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #107 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, February 11 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 107 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: NJC Two great articles on war ["kakki" ] njc [vince ] Re: Jonifest 2003 breaking news [Michael Paz ] News Clips: This Just IN (NJC) [Michael Paz ] RE: Circumcision, njc - now inoculations ["Heather" ] Re: missle shield (njc) [Randy Remote ] Re: NJC Two great articles on war PC [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: njc [Randy Remote ] Re: NJC Two great articles on war PC [Susan Guzzi ] Today's Library Links: February 11 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Re: missle shield (njc) ["kakki" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 21:15:54 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: NJC Two great articles on war O.K. I thought since you were replying to Lori's response to me that I was somehow included. I didn't realize I was adding any fuel to any fire. Seems the fire rages all the time here at a steady flame to me anyway! ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 00:02:36 -0500 From: vince Subject: njc http://www.calltoconscience.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 23:08:23 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Jonifest 2003 breaking news Pressure continues to mount ( no Pun intended). Wally great news I hope I can be there with you all. Best Paz > stop what you're doing and hear this!!!! > there is absolutely no excuse to miss jonifest this year. most particularly > because... I HAVE JUST OBTAINED A TEN-YEAR VISA TO GO TO THE US OF FUCKING > A!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i'm going i'm going i'm going. so if you thought you > were rid of me, think again. i'll be there and this year i'll be singing > brunnhilde's immolation in drag plus the complete mad scene from lucia the > lammermore to add to the general elegant character of the fest. > and what's this i hear? people procrastinating and not sending their > deposits! tut tut. get out those fat checkbooks now and write the darling > little checks! deposits AND donations, s'il vous plait. > as to the raffles, i'm sending the tiara i wore at the dutch royal wedding > last year. i know, i know -- it's LAST year's tiara, but i wore it only once > and besides diamonds become ANY girl. what are youze sending? > jonifest is one of the few times we can get together in the flesh and > channel ethel merman. would you miss such a thrill? no, you would NOT. > so give the girl a break, and send ashara your precious deposits, donations, > raffle tchotchkas and good vibes. at jonifest you get to kiss maggie > mcnally! you see steve polifka's hairy chest! and there's always me, > available for a hot dog and a coke! honey, think about it. > stop being so annoying, children, and get yourselves back to the garden, for > god's sake! > wallyK, scaring my housekeeper with my sudden shrieks of joy. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 23:25:37 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: News Clips: This Just IN (NJC) Sorry I am still WAY behind on the list, but have been trying to catch up. Anyways just got off the phone with Les who is just out of his skin right now trying to get a new page UP for us where everyone can post pics of themselves clipped or not. You girls can participate too if you like as there will be No discrimination regarding sex, colour, creed, or the usual OR unusual things. This is gonna be really a lot of fun trying to guess who is who altho most of you might guess Smurph because he has showed so many of you in the past. Please do not procrastinate, but send your clipped pics to pics to les@willieismysoreheismysorrow.org OR non clips to les@boomboompacederm.org The results should be stunning to say the least and there will be a month for us to tab the results of the who do you think is who thing (or something like that). Be well all, Michael (off to take my pic and email to Les's new JMDL gallery) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 00:32:14 -0500 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: Circumcision, njc - now inoculations speaking of inoculations .... i received a small pox inoculation years ago. i was about 4 yrs old. i guess my mother thought she was doing the right thing. well, i almost died. my fever spiked at 105 and the damn *thing* on my arm swelled into this nasty welt. I had to wear a cover (plastic dome) over it for two weeks. being only 4 years old, i remember this vividly! has anyone here had this sort of strange reaction to a small pox vaccination? once you have been inoculated (tho many years ago) does one have to get inoculated again? my hands get all sweaty just hearing of the small pox vaccination being given out again. heather - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Kate Bennett Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 10:08 PM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Circumcision, njc circumcision, innoculations...these are among so many many decisions that all loving parents agonize over on behalf of their children...& just how difficult & gut wrenching some of these choices can be is impossible to relay to those who have not walked in those shoes...just to add another element to this whole converstation... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 22:01:31 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: NJC Two great articles on war PC Sarah, I said "I" didn't think you were "that" conservative. Sometimes when one finds strength in numbers as there are a few more conservative types around then there used to be, they tend to huddle. Awhile back I tried to assert a common ground with you on atheism, if you recall, so I have not been closed-minded towards your personal convictions or because of them. I had an exchange with Bree last weekend on Regan/HIV/ Alzheimers. In the post I stated my opinion of all the links and articles brandished about in an effort to prove a point or misprove anothers. I said that these articles were opinion laced and slanted. Now every post you and Kasey put up this week made snide reference to my comments, often using my exact words. Yet when the journalism thread came up - you both souded a lot like me. If we were friends here, as Kakki claims we are, you could have included me and teased me, but instead you treated me like I was OBTUSE. Please, I am a street wise punk of a 45 year old, it's not getting by me. At least one of you if not both knew how catty you were being. I really just wanted to ignore but I am a bit of an emotional sort. Sarah wrote: > Susan, I promise I'm not being obtuse, but I honestly have no idea > what you're talking about. "The speed of my reply"; I wasn't "that" > conservative until more recently; the childishness; your "exact > words" you noticed, "fun and games" etc etc - I really have no idea > what you mean. Please do say. > > Regarding what you say about liking the distinctions of ideologies, > because you like to know where your enemy is coming from - this is > likely to lead to labelling people wrongly. I don't think it's > possible any more to lump people together into old 1960s ideologies > of left versus right, because there are so many new ways of looking > at things and so many new issues. Well I don't want there to be a distinction, so why can't everyone just think like me no need for arguing then! LOL! But seriously, That is what you think. I think in order to protect my postions and until people are more honest and there is more of that "peace, love and understanding" I will not trust others political ideoligies. The work that has been done is too precious and the work that lies ahead is too important. This blurring of the lines is to me a tactic to break down the strength of a position or the left. Sarah: Take animal rights for example. Is > supporting animal rights leftwing or rightwing? If you go to an > animal rights meeting, you'll find every shade of political opinion > there, united in a belief that animals have moral, and ought to have > legal, rights. Me: Amazing how concerned we are with animal rights yet humans are still treated like animals or property. Of course again I am not so dense to see that on this particular issue you could have anmial lovers from the left or right. Again though what side do most of the animal experiment types come from - hmmm? I wonder. Sarah: Same with feminism, campaigning against homophobia, > anti-racism, campaigning for the rights of disabled people, > environmentalism, you name it. Me: AND you are honestly telling me that those issues you just stated are of concern to the right as much as the left - maybe they are roadblocks to the right and their agendas, but please, feminism, homophobia - ANTI -racism you are kidding or and I really want you to take this as a joke Sarah - can you say obtuse?! LOL! I happen to be a feminist, lesbian, anti-racist, environmentalist - you mean I have wrongly been a Democrat all these years?! Sarah please, not here no way are you going to blur the lines for me here. Did too much marching in my day - remember "Most Radical Student Award winner! Sarah: And the war in Iraq is the same. One > of the (so-called) left's darlings in Britain, Nick Cohen of the > Observer, is passionately in favour of war in Iraq, because he wants > to see the Iraqi people liberated, and he sees the war as an issue > the left should embrace, and is astonished that they don't. Me: He may be a leftisit but he's not a pacifist. And I am 99% of the time. One of the ways to avert war is throught the "Lori" plan. Assasinate the mother! If we can break the laws of the U.N. to go to war, then we can change the laws and allow the CIA to go in there and "dispose" of him. It's an option/alternative to war. Not to mention the best plan yet and at least a temporary fix the French/German plan. Sarah: And another one: if you support nuclear power, are you left or right? > Until a decade ago, you'd have been on the right, but now, with > Kyoto, an increasing number of people traditionally regarded as > leftwing are wondering whether nuclear power is better than burning > fossil fuels. And so on. Me: Some may wonder but I have heard nor seen any major shift here, either. Sarah: I think a point comes where the labels don't refer properly anymore, and maybe should be abandoned. Me: Not a fan of labels in general, but I believe politically they are still necessary. I don't think the melting pot has extended itself as much as you think into the political philosophy arena. And I would warn those who are passionate about their positions not to fall into this belief system, too far. It can mean disater for your side, eventually when everything is watered down and desensitized to the point of not having any opinion. That would be the direction you are pointing in Sarah, in my opinion. A lemming society. Although you may be correct there is "some" shifting and have been some changes within some of these philosophies. > > PS The speed with which I'm replying doesn't mean anything. It's > just that I'm sitting at the computer. How come I take so long to write one damn post!? LOL! I am sitting right here as well! Take care, Peace, Susan NP: Norah Jones/ Don't Know Why Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 22:05:14 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: missle shield (njc) kakki wrote: > Randy wrote: > > > But wouldn't exploding a nuke release radioactivity into the > > atmosphere for all to breathe and get cancer? > > I don't think the idea is to explode it in space Not a nuclear explosion, but destroying it would still spread radioactive waste into the air. Better than nuking a city I guess, but how much would it disperse and poison the planet? > but it is not right to say it > either doesn't exist or doesn't work. Thousands of people in SoCal and a > few other cities have been working on it for too many years to say that. That only shows that it is well funded, not whether it works. > > Also, I am pretty sure the failed tests far outweigh the successful ones. > I recall the last one being faked. > > I think you and Lama and I might be on different pages as to what we think > this system is. The system I am thinking of has been in development for a > long time and the early tests were top secret so how would you know or why > would you think they are faked? I read the links you posted, and they describe a laser technology (which appears to be designed to be mounted on aircraft). In the larger system of a star wars type defense shield, there are lots of other components involved. http://whyfiles.org/089missile/ excerpt: A more localized version, the Theater High-Altitude Area Defense (THAAD), has already failed six straight tests. The latest test, on http://www.nukewatch.com/spring02/sp0214.html excerpt describing astronomical costs, staged tests, space 'defense' weapons that are really designed as offensive weapons (no pun intended), other systems in the works or being designed, and how all this is fueling more nuclear proliferation, aka 'here we go again' with mutually assured destruction. In his July 9, 2001, column in The Nation, Christopher Hitchens quotes Dr. Martin Luther King: "The preparation for nuclear war is the willingness to commit genocide and suicide at the same time." Hitchens then observes: "... the delusion of Missile Defense is that the suicide bit can be removed from the equation." Faked Tests, Fired Whistle-blowers Dr. Nira Schwartz, an employee of weapons giant TRW, was fired in 2000 after revealing that TRW had faked test results in order to claim that its "kill vehicle" could distinguish between decoy missiles and missiles carrying live warheads. When Dr. Theodore Postol, a professor at MIT, took Dr. Schwartzs findings to the White House and the General Accounting Office, the Pentagon classified his report. TRW and the Pentagon knew the system could not work, but attempted to deploy it anyway. Schwartz and Postol maintain that no existing technology can distinguish between decoys and live warheads; thus, it is not possible to field an effective missile defense. Lt. Gen. Ronald Kadish of the Air Force, director of the Ballistic Missile Defense Organization (BMDO), was quoted in the New York Times (Aug. 16, 2001) as doubting the "basic functionality" of the antimissile system. The third and fourth tests of ballistic missile interceptors, unlike the first and second, which flopped, were "successful." Unfortunately, the tests (July 14 and Dec. 3, 2001) were rigged. In both cases, although the target missile and interceptor were fired 5000 miles away from each other, the interceptor was guided to within 400 meters of the target by a beacon implanted in the targets nose. General Kadish does not seem worried about this problem. "Our test philosophy is to add step-by-step complexities over time. It is a walk-before-you-run, learn-as-you-go development." "The focus is on testing, and lots of it," said Col. Rick Lehner, spokesman for the BMDO. Each test costs taxpayers $100 million. The next test is scheduled for May. http://www.counterpunch.org/starwars.html "How the Pentagon Fixed the Star Wars Test" excerpt (btw identifies Clinton's support and funding for star wars which revitalized Reagan's foundering dream)excerpt: Since the 1980s, the U.S. has tried and failed to develop four different warning and tracking networks. The Sibbers program is the fifth, and seasoned observers have no doubt it will follow the fate of its forbears, to be joined by the other components of ballistic missile defense on a costly junkheap. In the meantime however the ABM treaty will probably have been torn up as other prospects for global disarmament, already dim, turned to a distant memory. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 00:13:45 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: NJC Two great articles on war PC Susan, I think you've gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick. I don't even remember what you said about Reagan, HIV and Alzheimers. I remember the thread, but I wasn't reading the posts. So if I have seemed to be joking about things you said, it is 100 per cent cooincidence. I'm sorry if that seems unlikely, but I promise you it is. I'm sorry you felt excluded, picked on or sniggered at - that was definitely not the intention. Please accept my apology for making you feel that way. Sarah At 10:01 PM -0800 02/10/2003, Susan Guzzi wrote: >Sarah, > >I said "I" didn't think you were "that" conservative. Sometimes >when one finds strength in >numbers as there are a few more conservative types around then there >used to be, they tend to >huddle. Awhile back I tried to assert a common ground with you on >atheism, if you recall, so I >have not been closed-minded towards your personal convictions or >because of them. > >I had an exchange with Bree last weekend on Regan/HIV/ Alzheimers. >In the post I stated my >opinion of all the links and articles brandished about in an effort >to prove a point or misprove >anothers. I said that these articles were opinion laced and >slanted. Now every post you and >Kasey put up this week made snide reference to my comments, often >using my exact words. Yet when >the journalism thread came up - you both souded a lot like me. If >we were friends here, as Kakki >claims we are, you could have included me and teased me, but instead >you treated me like I was >OBTUSE. Please, I am a street wise punk of a 45 year old, it's not >getting by me. At least one of >you if not both knew how catty you were being. I really just wanted >to ignore but I am a bit of >an emotional sort. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 22:18:54 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: njc vince wrote: > http://www.calltoconscience.net In which war veterans remind us of the reality of the last 'war' in Iraq: In the last Gulf War, as troops, we were ordered to murder from a safe distance. We destroyed much of Iraq from the air, killing hundreds of thousands, including civilians. We remember the road to Basra -- the Highway of Death -- where we were ordered to kill fleeing Iraqis. We bulldozed trenches, burying people alive. The use of depleted uranium weapons left the battlefields radioactive. Massive use of pesticides, experimental drugs, burning chemical weapons depots and oil fires combined to create a toxic cocktail affecting both the Iraqi people and Gulf War veterans today. One in four Gulf War veterans is disabled. It occurs to me that most of these invasions have been about 'regime change'. We have a record of that. Saddam was one of our boys, as was Noriega and the Taliban. Papa Doc, Baby Doc....oh but we will be more careful this time. Three words... Follow The Money.... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 22:25:14 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: NJC Two great articles on war PC Sarah, All is cool. I am not sure all involved knew what may have be going on, I could never make that statement absolute. But I am cynical and keep my eyes open, I think someone there knew what they were doing. With holding judgement, as I am only another human, but I will use my instinct for my own protection and for my own foresight. It's been nice talking to you , but I am done on this subject, I think it's only fair to the rest who have to muddle through, to finish up. We don't want this to become a nother "CIRCUMCISION" thread! LOL! Thanks for your honesty and candor, see ya around these parts. Sorry if I came off harsh or badly as well. Peace, Susan NP: me snoring any second! - --- sl.m@shaw.ca wrote: > Susan, I think you've gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick. I > don't even remember what you said about Reagan, HIV and Alzheimers. > I remember the thread, but I wasn't reading the posts. So if I have > seemed to be joking about things you said, it is 100 per cent > cooincidence. I'm sorry if that seems unlikely, but I promise you it > is. I'm sorry you felt excluded, picked on or sniggered at - that > was definitely not the intention. Please accept my apology for > making you feel that way. > > Sarah > > > At 10:01 PM -0800 02/10/2003, Susan Guzzi wrote: > >Sarah, > > > >I said "I" didn't think you were "that" conservative. Sometimes > >when one finds strength in > >numbers as there are a few more conservative types around then there > >used to be, they tend to > >huddle. Awhile back I tried to assert a common ground with you on > >atheism, if you recall, so I > >have not been closed-minded towards your personal convictions or > >because of them. > > > >I had an exchange with Bree last weekend on Regan/HIV/ Alzheimers. > >In the post I stated my > >opinion of all the links and articles brandished about in an effort > >to prove a point or misprove > >anothers. I said that these articles were opinion laced and > >slanted. Now every post you and > >Kasey put up this week made snide reference to my comments, often > >using my exact words. Yet when > >the journalism thread came up - you both souded a lot like me. If > >we were friends here, as Kakki > >claims we are, you could have included me and teased me, but instead > >you treated me like I was > >OBTUSE. Please, I am a street wise punk of a 45 year old, it's not > >getting by me. At least one of > >you if not both knew how catty you were being. I really just wanted > >to ignore but I am a bit of > >an emotional sort. Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 02:04:57 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: February 11 On February 11 the following items were published: 1991: "Night Ride Home" - People (Review - Album) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=465 2000: "Both Sides Now" - Entertainment Weekly (Review - Album) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=579 2000: "Interview" - CBC "Magazine" (Interview - Audio Transcription) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=904 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 23:26:36 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: missle shield (njc) Hi Randy, > Not a nuclear explosion, but destroying it would still spread > radioactive waste into the air. Better than nuking a city I guess, > but how much would it disperse and poison the planet? I don't know. But if it ever came to the point where countries were lobbing nukes at us, it would probably be the preferable lesser evil that we would have to live with. > That only shows that it is well funded, not whether it works. The government doesn't just hand out money blindly for these projects. Years of presentations and analysis are done before a contract is awarded. Something like this is created by Einstein-like geniuses. Some of them who developed the technology actually studied under Einstein. I don't think there are many people out there who can truly dissect the system knowledgeably because the Einsteins of this world are very few and far between. > I read the links you posted, and they describe a laser technology > (which appears to be designed to be mounted on aircraft). > In the larger system of a star wars type defense shield, there are > lots of other components involved. Yes, I know that. I'm hesitant to write in too much detail about the system so just wanted to give you an idea of what I was referring to. I read your links except for the nukewatch which I couldn't bring up. The subject of whistleblowers is another long one entirely. Suffice to say they are quite often mistaken and probably only win about 1% of the cases they bring. They see one small aspect of a much bigger picture and often make a claim of wrongdoing not knowing that at a much higher level something else has been approved or re-written. > In his July 9, 2001, column in The Nation, Christopher Hitchens > quotes Dr. Martin Luther King: "The preparation for nuclear war > is the willingness to commit genocide and suicide at the same time." > Hitchens then observes: "... the delusion of Missile Defense is that > the suicide bit can be removed from the equation." Well, a chance for me to say how much I love Hitchens, even when I don't buy everything he says. But I'm wild about him all the same ;-) He is brilliant and I believe he truly strives for the clear moral ground. > http://www.counterpunch.org/starwars.html > "How the Pentagon Fixed the Star Wars Test" > excerpt (btw identifies Clinton's support and funding for > star wars which revitalized Reagan's foundering dream)excerpt: I see from your link that Clinton apparently resurrrected it in 2000. In the late 70s and into the early 90s much progress was being made on the system. Then Clinton cut off a lot of the development and it went on hold for a number of years. It apparently has only been back up and running for the past two-three years. > Since the 1980s, the U.S. has tried and failed to develop four > different warning and tracking networks. The Sibbers program is > the fifth, and seasoned observers have no doubt it will follow the > fate of its forbears, to be joined by the other components of > ballistic missile defense on a costly junkheap. I don't think this is gospel truth. Maybe there is disinformation put out there, too. > In the meantime however the ABM treaty will probably have been torn up as > other prospects for global disarmament, already dim, turned to > a distant memory. I think most in the U.S. would disarm if everyone else truly wanted to do so. But many other countries keep building their own extensive defensive and offensive systems. Russia and China have a lot of the same missle shield technology that they are testing and it is a joke for them in recent years to have come out opposing the U.S. on it. There have always been brutal people in the world seeking to subjugate, control or eliminate others. While it would be great if our DNA suddenly took a giant leap in evolution and everyone became good and peaceful, when I look around at the reality of what is happening in the middle east, Zimbabwe, North Korea and a few other places, I don't see much evidence of that happening anytime soon. Kakki ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #107 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)