From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #106 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, February 11 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 106 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: 'Woodstock' ["Stephen Toogood" ] njc: circumcision 2 cents [cul heath ] Re: definitive covers (some JC) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: definitive covers (some JC) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: definitive covers (some JC) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: definitive covers, njc ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] Re: njc: circumcision 2 cents [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: Circumcision, njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] RE: lyric question ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] Klein and Joni [Little Bird ] Re: Circumcision, njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: NJC Two great articles on war [Susan Guzzi ] Re: virginia woolf on cloud illusions - njc [Tara Lindsay ] Re: NJC Two great articles on war [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: njc: circumcision 2 cents [colin ] Re: njc: circumcision 2 cents [colin ] Re: definitive covers ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: NJC Two great articles on war [colin ] Hell fecking yeah!!(njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Circumcision, njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Lou Reed on circumcision - NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Child abusers, was Circumcision, njc [colin ] RE: lyric question now njc of course [Catherine McKay ] Re: definitive covers, njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: Lou Reed on circumcision - NJC [colin ] Tiddly-Winks ["Suzanne MarcAurele" ] Re: Circumcision, njc [FMYFL@aol.com] djrd [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: NJC Two great articles on war [Susan Guzzi ] Re: NJC Two great articles on war ["kakki" ] Re: definitive covers (some JC) [Dan Olson ] Re: missle shield (njc) ["kakki" ] Re: NJC Two great articles on war [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: NJC Two great articles on war [Susan Guzzi ] Re: definitive covers (some JC) [Randy Remote ] Re: NJC Two great articles on war ["kakki" ] Re: NJC Two great articles on war [sl.m@shaw.ca] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 00:20:19 -0000 From: "Stephen Toogood" Subject: Re: 'Woodstock' "Bruce Kimerer" wrote: > On a related Woodstock note: I dragged out my vinyl of LOTC (I don't > have it > on CD) and listened to the original version of Woodstock again -- I hadn't > listened to the LOTC Joni rendition in a long time (years). And I was > struck > by the fact that the song is not performed as some sort of hippie anthem at > all. (CSNY turned it into almost a march.) In fact, it has much of the same > mood that she uses on Traveloque, though orchestrated differently -- and > that spooky choir vocal at the end. Wow! So strange -- and hardly ends > the > song on an '....and-we-all-lived-happily-ever-after-once-we-got-back-to- > the- > garden' note. At first I thought 'Woodstock' sounded a bit cliche. Joni's LOTC version is the first one I heard. I have since heard a few covers. I really dislike the MSC and CSN&Y versions. Those really do sum up the hippie generation and sound rather dated. Sure the lyrics have alot of hippie stuff about them but there are alot of universal messges in the song which Joni put across much better than anyone else can. The LOTC and TLOG versions are very powerful and the MOI version rocks. Still find the SAL vers dull though. I'm not a big fan of Eva Cassidy but she has done the best guitar version I have heard. "We are Star dust We are golden" STEVE T NP: 42nd Street Psyco Blues by Janis Ian ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 16:48:17 -0800 From: cul heath Subject: njc: circumcision 2 cents either you consider an infant a person or you don't. if you do not, then the infant is no more than property. if you do, then individual rights must be afforded an infant and he or she should not be subject to the whims of parental or cultural affectations without prior consent. its obvious that parents should not act as proxies for the will of the infant in matters of irreversible physical alterations that are not life-threatening or grossly debilitating. because I consider an infant to be a person and therefore not the "property" of the parents, i consider any circumcision of an infant, outside of medically necessary interventions, a direct violent assault which should be illegal. cul ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:57:01 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: definitive covers (some JC) In a message dated 2/10/2003 5:30:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, kimerer@taconic.net writes: > I have to confess I have no recollection of the MSC version of that song. I > recall the name of the group, but can't remember any of their music. Because you're on this side of the Atlantic. Had you grown up on the other side, you would more likely say that you were more familiar with the MSC version. However, the MSC version did make some waves here, I remember my sister had the 45 and I liked it even then. > > And I was struck > by the fact that the song is not performed as some sort of hippie anthem at > all. I agree with this whole-heartedly - it's just that time and the title of the song has given it that kind of treatment. When I think of some of the more wacky covers I have, a lot of them are Woodstock, because for a lot of folks that event was a defining point in the culture. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:01:11 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: definitive covers (some JC) In a message dated 2/10/2003 6:21:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, bass@flatironsjazz.com writes: > One very interesting thing about Woodstock on LOTC is Joni playing (solo) > ELECTRIC piano Yes, that does make for an interesting sound, and the "yodels" on the end are also somewhat unique. The song is really as strong a signature song for her as BSN & BYT I would propose. She's released it on 5 of her cd's (counting the re-release on "Hits"). She played it on her '83 and '98 tours. And I have to say that it's one of the highlights of S&L for me. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:04:25 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: definitive covers (some JC) In a message dated 2/10/2003 7:18:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, AzeemAK@aol.com writes: > It's a small point, but I > thought that was a really dishonest thing to put in the credits. Don't > much > like the song either! > I'm with you Azeem...I don't have the credits in front of me, but I think it reads "Fairlight Oboe", like you can switch the keys to imitate whatever instrument you like. If I was an accomplished oboist I would be Oboe-pissed! None of her compositions with Klein were much good, and this one doesn't change my opinion. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:34:16 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Re: definitive covers, njc Excuse me? Did I just hear a full-blooded Canadian admit that there might be some cultural benefits to being a neighbor of the USA? I thought the US was the pariah? The infidel? The home of hopelessly oppressed cowards. (Okay, we are that.) :) Lama some duality restless multiplicity (ya gotta love it) Catherine de Toronto spaketh, >>>>>Here in Canada, both versions were hits (as I recall.) Maybe I just paid more attention to them because I was already a Joni-fan, but I certainly remember the MSC version equally as well as the CSNY version. (The joys of having one foot in the UK and the other in the USA - - - the best of two worlds.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:50:56 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: NJC Two great articles on war > Huh?! Um, Lori, I was not heeheeing at war but rather just trying to > inject some levity re Sarah's remarks about the opinion pieces. Hey Kakki ... sorry for what seems to be a misunderstanding. I didn't actually think you were heeheeing at war - I *think* I know you better than that - but rather at the notion that a small group of you believe you're "right" about various "facts"/information. It seemed like you were rubbing it in the face of one or more pacifists on the list. But hey, if that's not the case, no harm no foul. Nonetheless, I'll stick with this: "Study war no more" Peace, Lori ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:04:07 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Circumcision, njc Oh Jimmy, Colin's way ahead of you in circumcision posts, don't worry! I swear I can't believe I am actuallly jumping in on this thread, I've read so much about circumcision the past few days - I'm about to gag! Pun totally intended! All this talk about circimcision now it must be the start of the latest style. And speaking of style which one do you all prefer the ones with the "little german helmets" or the ones wearing the "turtlenecks" - just wondering ... and I totally stoled that bit from a comedian friend, who I think used it in on Letterman many years ago. >Jimmy wrote: > Jimmy (who will probably be thrown off the list for 3 circumcision posts > today) Peace, Susan NP: Tracy Chapman/For My Lover Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:08:35 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: njc: circumcision 2 cents Cul, I agree with you, and you put it very well and succintly. This thread (circumcision, child abuse) raises the whole issue of children's rights, and whether there should be a bill of rights for children enshrined in law. I feel there should be, precisely because they are persons, but are often treated like property. I also feel we should have a bill of rights for animals (even the most basic rights would improve life for so many of them), and a separate set of rights for prisoners, who are often badly abused in jail. The punishment for a crime should be the loss of liberty IMO, and not the thousand humiliations prisoners often suffer at the hands of prison staff and other inmates. Sarah At 4:48 PM -0800 02/10/2003, cul heath wrote: either you consider an infant a person or you don't. if you do not, then the infant is no more than property. if you do, then individual rights must be afforded an infant and he or she should not be subject to the whims of parental or cultural affectations . . . ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 21:15:55 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Circumcision, njc Laurent writes: << Yes that's exactly what I'm saying. >> Maybe what you're thinking is that most child abusers have been abused, rather than most abused children become abusers? --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 21:20:35 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: RE: lyric question Gees, McKay! You want me to go through the entire canon of lyrics with ya? You don't believe "He heard her, off to starboard?" OKAY! You're on a ship in Lake Superior. Let's say there's a storm and you're about 15 miles from White Fish Bay, standing in the middle of the boat, facing the front, the bow. The hull is pitching and yawning as the boat rolls from side to side in the waves. It's dusk, and foggy. The starboard rail is the boat's outside edge on your right. Over the wind and the rain and the groaning, twisting rigging you shout, "WHERE'S THE EDMUND FITZGERALD? DID THE CAPTAIN SEE HER?" I might holler back, "NO, BUT HE HEARD HER PLAINLY ENOUGH, OFF TO STARBOARD, BUCKLING AND WHIMPERING AS SHE WENT DOWN!" It's not so hard to fathom. See? It's a pun. "Fathom"! Get it? It's a nautical joke! Lama, who's apparently doomed to argue with this woman every day of the new millennium. Sheesh! Put me at the top of your danger list ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:22:47 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Klein and Joni Bob M wrote: > None of her compositions with Klein were much good...> Ahh! This is ourtrageous! Sire of Sorrow, Two Grey Rooms, Passion Play, Turbulent Indigo, the list goes on and on. They've produced some wonderful songs together. I'm not trying to change your opinion but surely you've overlooked some very good songs here? - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 21:29:48 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Circumcision, njc "Golden Eggs" writes: << which one do you all prefer the ones with the "little german helmets" or the ones wearing the "turtlenecks" >> Hmm. I don't think my circumcision was performed correctly, since I have a sort of "mock turtleneck." --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:41:34 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: NJC Two great articles on war Thanks Lori ...For addressing the sophmoric behavior. I appreciate your awareness and support of what was going on here, this past week. I wasn't going to say anything, but here I go again ... That's how I and a few others felt here. I'll remember to reach out again to a conservative and try to extend the olive branch as I have in the past. Seems people don't remember things like that! I still have the posts, I think I actually took a whole post to defend someone's brand of conservatism - tell that to your young proteges here! And speaking of talking out of both sides of ones mouth. Although a few found fun and folly - no it did not go unnoticed, with my words last week, and chose to parade them around here in a mocking manner - it seems even funnier, they all took the same side as I on the thread about journalism being slanted. So girls - please don't be so obtuse! And NEVER mistake me for someone who is! The thing is I form my own opinions, granted they are on the left, purely from my athesist/humanist belief system. And I do realize facts come into play, but again in these times whose facts to believe? I do not need someone to write an article telling me how I should feel. But then I have always felt IMHO that those on the right have a very hard time feeling anyway. It's just not very genuine or sincere, if you can never find it in your heart to choose peace. Peace,SusanNP: The Sundays/Here's Where the Story EndsLori wrote:It seemed like you > were rubbing it in the face of one or more pacifists on the list.> > But hey, if that's not the case, no harm no foul.> > Nonetheless, I'll stick with this: "Study war no more"> > Peace,> Lori Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Jan 1980 02:41:15 -0800 From: Tara Lindsay Subject: Re: virginia woolf on cloud illusions - njc I love Virginia Woolfe's image of clouds like time passing over everything. She would have loved those speeded up films of clouds racing over the landscape. The Waves is a whole book of this kind of writing. It worked wonderfully for me with some sensuous Debussy music and good wine.I can't wait to see The Hours when it opens over here in a week or two. I went to see Punch Drunk Love, the new film by the wunderkind who directed Boogie Nights and Magnolia. It's not as epic as those but an offbeat little love story to get St Valentines week started. Today, a friend read out the top chat up lines from some poll or other. I liked this one "Did it hurt ? ...when you fell from heaven." They should teach this kind of thing in schools. Looking for love is the most important thing we do, yet there's no training. Wishing everyone roses and kisses and pretty lies this week. Tara ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 21:41:45 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Re: definitive covers Without a doubt: "Black Crow" by Bryan Thomas in Ashara's living room, 1998. "Edith and the Kingpin" by Sherelle Smith in the Performance Space at the Full Moon Resort in Olivera, New York, on Saturday night, August 24th, 2002. Lama ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:52:44 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: NJC Two great articles on war Susan, I'm not sure what your post refers to, but I'd like to take issue with one thing. You seem to be equating being in favour of this war against Saddam with "conservatism". I'm in favour of the war (so long as there's an intention to fight it with minimal loss of life, and so long as there's a commitment to helping to build a post-Saddam Iraq). But I'm not a conservative, at least not in most of the areas I can think of. Just wanted to point that out. This was part of what I meant when I wrote a couple of weeks ago that I hoped the old left versus right labels would soon die out, because there are a lot of people and ideas they don't apply to nowadays. Sarah PS Also don't agree with what you wrote about people on the right not having genuine or sincere feelings. That's a huge generalization - hope you were joking. At 6:41 PM -0800 02/10/2003, Susan Guzzi wrote: >But then I have always felt IMHO that those on the >right have a very hard time feeling anyway. It's just not very >genuine or sincere, if you can >never find it in your heart to choose peace. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 02:50:07 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: njc: circumcision 2 cents cul heath wrote: > either you consider an infant a person or you don't. it seems most do not. certainly the law deos not see children as persons but as property. Although there has been 'talk' of making child prosititutes 'victims' in law, i believe it is still the case that they are 'criminals'. > > > if you do not, then the infant is no more than property. > > if you do, then individual rights must be afforded an infant and he or > she should not be subject to the whims of parental or cultural > affectations without prior consent. its obvious that parents should > not act as proxies for the will of the infant in matters of > irreversible physical alterations that are not life-threatening or > grossly debilitating. > > because I consider an infant to be a person and therefore not the > "property" of the parents, i consider any circumcision of an infant, > outside of medically necessary interventions, a direct violent assault > which should be illegal. need i say I toatlly agree with you? > > > cul ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 02:53:49 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: njc: circumcision 2 cents sl.m@shaw.ca wrote: > > > I also feel we should have a bill of rights for animals (even the most > basic rights would improve life for so many of them), and a separate > set of rights for prisoners, who are often badly abused in jail. The > punishment for a crime should be the loss of liberty IMO, and not the > thousand humiliations prisoners often suffer at the hands of prison > staff and other inmates. > > Sarah > yes i agree with this too. The way we treat prisoners debases us. Capital and corporal punishment debases us. The same with animals-factory farming etc. I do not include the eating of animals. I see nothing wrong with that. There is plenty wrong with the rearing and the way we kill them. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:02:27 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: definitive covers >>>I found it interesting that on NRH (which I have on vinyl), in "Nothing Can be Done", the music was by LARRY KLEIN (words by Joni). And on "The Only Joy in Town," Joni plays OBOE. Who knew?<< i sure didn't know that...was it real oboe (very difficult to just pick up & play from what i understand) or could it be that it was keyboard sampled oboe? ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 02:57:26 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: NJC Two great articles on war sl.m@shaw.ca wrote: > I'm in favour of the war (so long as there's an intention to fight it > with minimal loss of life, as long as it is not your loved ones or you? I am not painting you as a baddie-I don't think you are-I agree on much with you-but I do think you are misguided on this. This war will not do anythign to decrease terrorism-it will increase it-if it doesn't set off achange of evnets that will lead to no one being around to be terrorists or thier victims. > > Sarah > > PS Also don't agree with what you wrote about people on the right not > having genuine or sincere feelings. oneof my good friends is a Bush lover and Conservative. She is genuine and has reel feelings and real udnertsanding too of people and real compassion. she, like the rest of us, is not perfect and has her blind spots! > That's a huge generalization - hope you were joking. > > At 6:41 PM -0800 02/10/2003, Susan Guzzi wrote: > >> But then I have always felt IMHO that those on the >> right have a very hard time feeling anyway. It's just not very >> genuine or sincere, if you can >> never find it in your heart to choose peace. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:06:16 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Hell fecking yeah!!(njc) >> I'm still not convinced that I actually live there(it seems too nice-I'm used to living in rundown old houses so this is a nice change...very fortuitous.) I start working at a brand new Whole Foods Market in March (coincidence?)<< BELIEVE IT! yahoo victor so happy to hear all this good news from you! ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:08:01 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Circumcision, njc circumcision, innoculations...these are among so many many decisions that all loving parents agonize over on behalf of their children...& just how difficult & gut wrenching some of these choices can be is impossible to relay to those who have not walked in those shoes...just to add another element to this whole converstation... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 22:08:30 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Lou Reed on circumcision - NJC Here are the lyrics to a song from "Magic and Loss," by the incomparable Lou Reed: HARRY'S CIRCUMCISION Looking in the mirror Harry didn't like what he saw The cheeks of his mother the eyes of his father As each day crashed around him the future stood revealed He was turning into his parents The final disappointment Stepping out of the shower Harry stared at himself His hairline receding the slight overbite He picked up the razor to begin his shaving and thought oh I wish I was different I wish I was stronger I wish I was thinner I wish I didn't have this nose These ears that stick out remind me of my father and I don't want to be reminded at all The final disappointment Harry looked in the mirror thinking of Vincent van Gogh and with a quick swipe lopped off his nose And happy with that he made a slice where his chin was He'd always wanted a dimple The end of all illusion Then peering down straight between his legs Harry thought of the range of possibilities A new face a new life no memories of the past and slit his throat from ear to ear Harry woke with a cough the stitches made him wince A doctor smiled at him from somewhere across the room Son we saved your life but you'll never look the same And when he heard that, Harry had to laugh And when he heard that, Harry had to laugh Although it hurt Harry had to laugh The final disappointment ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 03:09:38 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Child abusers, was Circumcision, njc Virtually all studies have concluded that all abusers and serial killers were indeed victims themselves when children. A recent study has shown that about 12% of men who were abused ebcome abusers and the greatest majority of them were the victims of female abusers. It is also said that their only 2 answers to 'were you abused as a child'. the answers are 1. no or 2. i don't know. I used to think that was bollocks until I learned more about the effects of abuse on the mind and saw proof that babies get fucked. Speaking of abuse, i a saw program about domestic violence. i got a surprise. i knew there were male victims too. what i did not know was that there was an equal number of male victims as female victims. 122 studies the world over support this claim. YET in this country, and the picture is little better anywhere else, there is absolutely NO FUNDING for any sort of support for male victims of domestic violence. One mam's story included the fact that his wife almost beat him to death. She was arrested and then let go with a caution. It was correctly pointed out that had this been the other way around, he would be in jail. 1 man is killed by his female partner evey 2 days in this country. two children a week die at the hands of their carers evey week. the vast majority of abuse, physical, sexual, emotional, is perpetrated by the child victims family, usually parents. The vast majority of children under the age of 4 who need hospital treatemtn because of injuries recieved, the injuries were inflicted by the female carer/mother. abuse is not not confined to eitehr gender either as victim or perp. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 22:13:07 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: RE: lyric question now njc of course --- "Jim L'Hommedieu (Lama)" wrote: > Gees, McKay! You want me to go through the entire > canon of lyrics with ya? > You don't believe "He heard her, off to starboard?" > OKAY! .... > Lama, > who's apparently doomed to argue with this woman > every day of the new > millennium. Sheesh! Put me at the top of your > danger list rest> > Argue if you want to, but argue with Wally, OK? He started it! I was just 'splaining it to him. (Speaking of sheesh!) ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 03:12:21 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Circumcision, njc Kate Bennett wrote: >circumcision, innoculations...these are among so many many decisions that >all loving parents agonize over on behalf of their children...& just how >difficult & gut wrenching some of these choices can be > i agree with you on the issue of vacinnation. I don't when it comes to cuircumscion, a mutiliation. Cul said why; if you see your child as an indivual, a person, with rights, the answer to the question'should i do this' is very clear. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 22:20:46 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: definitive covers, njc --- "Jim L'Hommedieu (Lama)" wrote: > Excuse me? Did I just hear a full-blooded Canadian > admit that there might > be some cultural benefits to being a neighbor of the > USA? The main benefit is: we're over here and you're over there. Bwa-ha-ha! ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 03:20:14 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Lou Reed on circumcision - NJC A happy liitle song isn't it? i have read it about 4 times now. i must be thick. i cannot see the reference to circumcision..... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 22:26:20 -0500 From: "Suzanne MarcAurele" Subject: Tiddly-Winks I see tiddly-Winks is busy working overtime writing all over Mitchell's digest with an obcession about circumcision - may I add _ don't believe I've had a Daddy-pops that was not circumcised so apparently this time to time revival must come from someone who has forgotten about VD and would like to meet a carrier real soon - dah... that was and is the reason for circumcision - men needing mutiples a day and well then there is the point on showers not always available and absolutely pitiful whores who do it anywhere for a few dolla's and even more desperate men and voila - Joni's Jungle Line - but did ye all really believe she was saying like Hail to stupidity? Still around I must say this digest has been off the point of it for some time. I would like to know what she is thinking on all this stuff happening with Iraq ...Haven't relistened to Travelogue lately been too preoccupied and every time I read oen of these I get no interest in the lines from any of you S. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 22:52:02 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Circumcision, njc In a message dated 2/10/03 9:05:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, groovchacha@yahoo.com writes: > I swear I can't believe I am actuallly jumping in on this thread, I've read > so much about > circumcision the past few days - I'm about to gag! Oh sweet Susan "golden eggs". We could start talking about the little man in the canoe :~) .............a friend once used that expression, and I laughed my arse off. I'm not sure how many people would *get* it (except Murphy) Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 22:52:21 EST From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: djrd Subject of the meaning(s) of DJRD came up earlier: I've always heard a lot of sexual guilt/liberation in the song (coward, slinking down the hall to another restless night/as we center behind the eight-ball/as we rock between the sheets, etc.). Pretty powerful stuff, this song. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:54:27 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: NJC Two great articles on war Sarah, I think you do know what my post refers to noted by the speed of your reply. You take issue with my belief that being for the war coincides with being conservative, okay that's a good argument. Granted the far far fanatical right (Pat Buchanan & Bay Banshee Buchanan) are against it, for other reasons. But the mainstream of those in support are from the mainstream right, from what I see. I know some pretty apolitical and fairly centered political people who are very against this war. AND that's in my business, which is the futures and options industry. Yes, gold still rallies a bit at the thought of war, but the economy does not flourish at the thought of war like it did many years ago. I didn't think you were "that" conservative till more recently and that's your personal choice anyway. You don't owe me any explanation, as to your ideology . But it was the childishness, that I observed this week. Because they were my words I noticed. I was choosing to let it go but you gals just kept a going! And yet took my exact side on the journalism issue. I like having the distinctions of ideolgies, I like to know where my enemy is coming from. They exist, and I will use them for my own caution. I believe it's a game to cause confusion started by the Regan administration, (color blind) remember that one? Until there is honesty and integrity and openness in governtment, I like have them marked. Imagine, you may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. See Sarah even you are - and the last time I brought this up I ended with "What's so funny bout peace, love and understanding - and that was belittled as well. I was somewhat surprised to have you involved in the fun and games this week. I hope I can look beyond this and read your posts with the same interest I used to but it may take some time to get there again. No I wasn't comletely joking about the right and their lack of feelings - a generalization yes, I am not a perfect human being like one or two others here, not speaking to you now Sarah. But that's the best I can do right now and until then the burden of proof lies with them or the right. Take care Sarah, and I hope we can talk again in the future. BUt I really don't want to beat this thing to death nor start our own war. I tried to abstain, but when Lori went to bat, I felt a responsibility not to have her hung out to dry. Thanks ... Peace, Susan NP: Shawn Colvin/Mary Chapin Carpenter/One Cool Remove - --- sl.m@shaw.ca wrote: > Susan, I'm not sure what your post refers to, but I'd like to take > issue with one thing. You seem to be equating being in favour of > this war against Saddam with "conservatism". I'm in favour of the > war (so long as there's an intention to fight it with minimal loss of > life, and so long as there's a commitment to helping to build a > post-Saddam Iraq). But I'm not a conservative, at least not in most > of the areas I can think of. > > Just wanted to point that out. This was part of what I meant when I > wrote a couple of weeks ago that I hoped the old left versus right > labels would soon die out, because there are a lot of people and > ideas they don't apply to nowadays. > > Sarah > > PS Also don't agree with what you wrote about people on the right not > having genuine or sincere feelings. That's a huge generalization - > hope you were joking. > > At 6:41 PM -0800 02/10/2003, Susan Guzzi wrote: > >But then I have always felt IMHO that those on the > >right have a very hard time feeling anyway. It's just not very > >genuine or sincere, if you can > >never find it in your heart to choose peace. Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:22:13 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: NJC Two great articles on war Susan wrote: > Thanks Lori ...For addressing the sophmoric behavior. I appreciate your awareness and support of > what was going on here, this past week. I've been out most of the past week so don't know of other sophmoric behavior. I come home to lots of posts and tend to read them out of order so maybe I missed something or some subtext that was going on. I was not mocking Sarah nor anyone else in particular. If anything I was seeing the irony of the vocal ones here (myself included) as a group. "Opinions" fly left and right here all the time. Doesn't it strike you as a little funny or ironic when someone is called out after all this time by sending yet another opinion? Then she came back clearly labeling her links as "opinion." Geez, can't we chuckle at our individual and group personality variations here? Isn't that what kind people or a group of friends talking to each other face to face do? Can't we just be people here sometimes or must we all be consumed with battling for our side all the time? Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 21:29:06 -0700 From: Dan Olson Subject: Re: definitive covers (some JC) From my vinyl copy (which I'll bet I'm one of the few who owns): "The Only Joy in Town ........... Joni Mitchell: Guitar, Oboe, Keyboards, Omnichord, Vocals" Thanks to everyone who pointed out that the oboe was sampled, and that this was already discussed in a thread some time ago. What the heck is an ominchord? ~Dan At 08:04 PM 2/10/2003 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 2/10/2003 7:18:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, >AzeemAK@aol.com writes: > > > It's a small point, but I > > thought that was a really dishonest thing to put in the credits. Don't > > much > > like the song either! > > > >I'm with you Azeem...I don't have the credits in front of me, but I think it >reads "Fairlight Oboe", like you can switch the keys to imitate whatever >instrument you like. If I was an accomplished oboist I would be Oboe-pissed! >None of her compositions with Klein were much good, and this one doesn't >change my opinion. > >Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:42:13 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: missle shield (njc) Randy wrote: > But wouldn't exploding a nuke release radioactivity into the > atmosphere for all to breathe and get cancer? I don't think the idea is to explode it in space but I think that if any radioactivity was released in the upper atmosphere it would be preferable to cratering a city and rendering it uninhabitable for generations. It's one thing to say you are against this system, but it is not right to say it either doesn't exist or doesn't work. Thousands of people in SoCal and a few other cities have been working on it for too many years to say that. > Also, I am pretty sure the failed tests far outweigh the successful ones. I recall the last one being faked. I think you and Lama and I might be on different pages as to what we think this system is. The system I am thinking of has been in development for a long time and the early tests were top secret so how would you know or why would you think they are faked? Here are links and excerpts along the line of the system I am speaking about which detail recent successful tests of the technology (but not the whole picture, of course, which is probably mostly still secret) There were several articles in the media back in November which reported these recent tests. There is probably much more information to be found in back issues of Aviation Week and Space Technology. http://www.menewsline.com/stories/2002/december/12_24_3.html http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/search/BasicSearch.jsp (type "laser" in search block) Defense Daily | November 26, 2002 | Kerry Gildea The modified Boeing [BA] 747-400 that has been flying flight worthiness tests for the Airborne Laser (ABL) program is headed to Edwards AFB, Calif., next month for integration work to get the laser system onto the platform, program officials reported. A Boeing-Lockheed Martin [LMT]-TRW [TRW] team is developing ABL, a megawatt high-energy laser on a modified 747-400 aircraft for shooting down ballistic missiles in their boost phase of flight. Raytheon [RTN] also is subcontracting to Lockheed Martin to provide the ABL track illuminator laser, which will be one of the systems four critical lasers. Earlier this month, Air Force Lt. Gen. Ronald Kadish, director of the Missile Defense Agency (MDA), said MDA and the Air Force would continue to integrate and test components of ABL but have no firm date when the system will demonstrate its ability to shoot down a target (Defense Daily, Nov. 5). While MDA and the Air Force are still aiming for the first shoot-down test of the ABL in 2004, Kadish said the certainty of the date is in flux at least until completion of ongoing hardware integration and laser lab tests over at least part of next year. "We're still assessing the goal of calendar year for the shootdown...I don;t think we can pin that down until we get through next spring," Kadish said at a recent Defense Writers Group breakfast. Nonetheless, the first ABL plane, which will go to Edwards for at least a year of integration work, successfully completed its flight worthiness tests over the summer and fall. That modified 747 flew equipped with modifications necessary to house the laser. During the first flight of the modified plane on July 18, the ABL took off from an airport adjacent to Boeing facilities in Wichita, Kan. The ABL, designated Aircraft 00-0001, flew a 120-minute flight plan to check out the aircraft's aerodynamic performance and system operation. The aircraft is scheduled to undergo more extensive ground tests once it reaches Edwards, program officials said. Then the tracking and high-energy laser system also will be installed there. "This system is one of the most complex engineering challenges ever undertaken in an aircraft, and our team has made solid progress," Scott Fancher, Boeing vice president and ABL program director, said in a statement after the first flight. "We've created a methodical approach to ABL development, moving through each phase after meeting appropriate technical goals. We are now at the beginning of the future of missile defense." Air Force Col. Ellen Pawlikowski, ABL program director at Kirtland AFB, N.M., said at the time she was pleased with the first-flight results. "This represents a major step forward for the Airborne Laser program," Pawlikowski said. "We're making important, careful strides toward our goal of building a boost-phase missile defense system." Pawlikowski said a successful demonstration of ABL would clear the way for progress and open the door for possibly integrating lasers onto other future platforms. Under the program team, Boeing has overall program management and system integration responsibilities for ABL, and also is developing the ABL surveillance battle management system and supplying the modified aircraft. TRW is building the ABLs chemical oxygen iodine laser and the related ground support subsystem. Lockheed Martin is building the beam control/fire control system. Raytheon also this month delivered the first track illuminator laser (TILL) to Lockheed Martin for the program. The ABL TILL is the first diode-pumped laser that has qualified for flight operation aboard a military aircraft, Raytheon said. Raytheon's TILL will be integrated with the beam transfer optics for an end-to-end test of the ABL's Beam Control/Fire Control system at the Lockheed Martin ABL test facility in Sunnyvale, Calif., Raytheon noted. TILL is an integral part of the Beam Control/Fire Control system and will project rapid, powerful pulses of light to a small section of a boosting missile threat. The light will then be reflected back to an extremely sensitive camera. The reflected light data is used to obtain information about the threats speed and elevation, it added. In March 2001, Raytheon's TILL was the first of four critical ABL solid-state lasers to conduct a successful first light; test at its High Energy Laser Center in El Segundo, Calif. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 22:36:00 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: NJC Two great articles on war No, I do take your point on this Colin. It's easy to be an armchair warrior. Perhaps if someone I loved were faced with being killed in this war, I'd think differently. The way I see it at the moment is the lesser of two evils. I do think that Saddam will use his weapons one day, probably against Israel, possibly against the Kurds or Iran, or one of the Gulf states. There were over a million people killed in the Iran-Iraq war. And there are the human rights abuses inside Iraq. Enough said about them - we all know the stories. However, I like the German plan, so long as it's done properly - have a U.N. force take over Iraq, increase the weapons inspectors, and allow Saddam to remain as a figurehead only. The problem is that he would never agree to that because he knows (a) they'll find the weapons eventually and (b) they'd find all the tortured prisoners and the evidence that he had used live human guinea pigs in weapons experiments. So then he'd be tried for crimes against humanity. I just don't see what can be done about him, if not to overthrow him in war. Sarah At 2:57 AM +0000 02/11/2003, colin wrote: >as long as it is not your loved ones or you? >I am not painting you as a baddie-I don't think you are-I agree on >much with you-but I do think you are misguided on this. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:44:28 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: NJC Two great articles on war Kakki, I never said you were mocking Sarah. I never even said you were a part of the exchange except for your little "hee hee" you were not to bare the brunt of what I was talking about, but still you add gasoline to the fire, as I believe you were as Lori put it "rubbing it in the faces of the pacifists" on line here. Not too long ago, I recall the laments of how liberal the list was, oh the whining that went on Kakki! Yet lately, through what I think is passive - aggressive behavior, the conservatives have been having a field day! And I am tired of feeling intimidated or seeing otheres react as such. Kakki wrote: > maybe I missed something or some subtext that was going on. I was not > mocking Sarah nor anyone else in particular. If anything I was seeing the > irony of the vocal ones here (myself included) as a group. "Opinions" fly > left and right here all the time. NOT when the person isn't in on the joke. Oh believe me I was in on it - but not by invitation or good natured joking. This was meant to do nothing but incite me and start an argument and still she has not reared her head to speak. But I am sure she is researching some article to tell me something else I dont know. You know Bree and I disagree on almost everything - politically, yet we tease eachother about it. And I still want to wring her neck at her ideas sometimes - LOL! Please it's condesending remarks like this that help solidify my opinions of Republicans, and conservatives. A fine showing of a lack of compassion and an abundance of pomposity! I was not being recalled as a friend or a part of their little group, it was mocking and mean. I have always addressed everyone here. Perhaps had they teased me and called me out by name but no, it was a little game, by little people. And yet Kakki you too never relent but expect me to - again pompous and condesending. You've got a theme going now. And up until recently I thought you and I also had that understanding about our differences, I can see now, that just isn't so. Kakki said: Doesn't it strike you as a little funny > or ironic when someone is called out after all this time by sending yet > another opinion? Then she came back clearly labeling her links as > "opinion." Geez, can't we chuckle at our individual and group personality > variations here? Isn't that what kind people or a group of friends talking > to each other face to face do? Can't we just be people here sometimes or > must we all be consumed with battling for our side all the time? Take care and as always ... Peace, Susan Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:44:13 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: definitive covers (some JC) Dan Olson wrote: > From my vinyl copy (which I'll bet I'm one of the few who owns): > "The Only Joy in Town ........... Joni Mitchell: Guitar, Oboe, Keyboards, > Omnichord, Vocals" > > Thanks to everyone who pointed out that the oboe was sampled, and that this > was already discussed in a thread some time ago. What the heck is an > ominchord? It's like a bungee chord only it will attach to anything in the universe. RR sorry...some kind of keyboard synth thing. I have heard that the oboe is the hardest orchestra instrument to play. Takes major wind. The credit should have said it was sampled oboe. Maybe it was a typo...wouldn't be the first time. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 21:12:48 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: NJC Two great articles on war Lori wrote: > I *think* I know you better than that - but rather at the notion that a small group of you believe > you're "right" about various "facts"/information. I hope you and others know me better than that. But I can ask the same thing - why do a small group of others think they are always right about facts/information? Just because someone thinks is is true or hears it somewhere else doesn't mean it is true. There have been a number of people here who assume the US gave Iraq all its weapons and did nothing to stand up to Saddam before the Gulf War. That is not true, absolutely not true. But you have to go probably pay to do LEXIS searches and go through the Congressional Record starting in around 1984 to see that is not true. (Which I have started to do in part and will be happy to share those excerpts that speak to this issue). What I don't understand is why someone would not want to search out the truth of such a serious allegation against their country. Would someone really rather believe their country is so evil/stupid/complicit? If taking the stance that the U.S. is equally complicit helps the antiwar effort, do you then ignore the truth, or do you honestly say "these are the facts." Then again you have to believe the Congressional Record is the true recordation of what U.S. representatives have done. It's not opinion in my mind, nor is it propaganda. It's a record of the U.S. actions all along the way. > It seemed like you were rubbing it in the face of one or more pacifists on the list. As I explained already, I was just laughing at Sarah labeling a couple of her links as "opinion". Nothing more - no hidden agenda. I don't think I've ever been the type here to rub anything in peoples' faces. I do try to stand up for my country and its policies when I think it is being unfairly accused or slandered. Why would I want the enemies of the U.S. have more fuel against it? We apparently have a lot of enemies out there right now. I'm on the side of the defense in this one. But I don't hold individuals responsible for repeating what they read somewhere. There is so much massive opinion stated as fact out there, it is difficult to know what to believe. News travels so fast now, too, that a "fact" of yesterday can easily change tomorrow. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 22:59:57 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: NJC Two great articles on war Susan, I promise I'm not being obtuse, but I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. "The speed of my reply"; I wasn't "that" conservative until more recently; the childishness; your "exact words" you noticed, "fun and games" etc etc - I really have no idea what you mean. Please do say. Regarding what you say about liking the distinctions of ideologies, because you like to know where your enemy is coming from - this is likely to lead to labelling people wrongly. I don't think it's possible any more to lump people together into old 1960s ideologies of left versus right, because there are so many new ways of looking at things and so many new issues. Take animal rights for example. Is supporting animal rights leftwing or rightwing? If you go to an animal rights meeting, you'll find every shade of political opinion there, united in a belief that animals have moral, and ought to have legal, rights. Same with feminism, campaigning against homophobia, anti-racism, campaigning for the rights of disabled people, environmentalism, you name it. And the war in Iraq is the same. One of the (so-called) left's darlings in Britain, Nick Cohen of the Observer, is passionately in favour of war in Iraq, because he wants to see the Iraqi people liberated, and he sees the war as an issue the left should embrace, and is astonished that they don't. And another one: if you support nuclear power, are you left or right? Until a decade ago, you'd have been on the right, but now, with Kyoto, an increasing number of people traditionally regarded as leftwing are wondering whether nuclear power is better than burning fossil fuels. And so on. I think a point comes where the labels don't refer properly anymore, and maybe should be abandoned. Sarah PS The speed with which I'm replying doesn't mean anything. It's just that I'm sitting at the computer. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #106 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)