From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #105 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, February 10 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 105 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- FW: Circumcision, njc [Carolyn Carmack ] Re: Today's Porridge Links - njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #104 [JSerkes@aol.com] Re: would you believe NJC [dsk ] Re: Boys play Girls, Hugh's Room, Toronto - sjc [Mags N Brei ] Re: would you believe NJC [colin ] Re: Gluten free cooking - success! (and porridge) NJC ["Stephen Toogood" ] Re: Circumcision, njc [Randy Remote ] Re: queen's concert/brian wilson/etc/NJC [Randy Remote ] Re: would you believe NJC [colin ] Re: breaking news njc [Randy Remote ] Re: missle shield (njc) [Randy Remote ] DJRD - Help!! ["ron" ] Re: would you believe NJC [dsk ] Re: Circumcision, njc ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: definitive covers ["mike pritchard" ] Re: Circumcision, njc [Gerald Notaro ] Re: Circumcision, njc [David Sadowski ] Re: Circumcision, njc [Randy Remote ] RE: circumcision another view NJC ["mike pritchard" ] RE: Circumcision, njc [Carolyn Carmack ] The last fore skin post please njc [BRIANASYMES@aol.com] Re: Circumcision, njc [sl.m@shaw.ca] Liebowitz Photos* [Thom Byrd ] Re: Circumcision, njc [David Sadowski ] Circumcision, njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Wall to Wall Joni in New York ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Wall to Wall Joni in New York [Gerald Notaro ] Re: Circumcision, njc [colin ] Re: Circumcision, njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Circumcision, njc [colin ] definitive covers (some JC) [Bruce Kimerer ] RE: NJC objectivity in journalism [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: Circumcision, njc ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: Circumcision, njc [colin ] Re: definitive covers (some JC) [Dan Olson ] Hell fecking yeah!!(njc) [waytoblu ] Re: Circumcision, njc [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Child abusers, was Circumcision, njc [hell ] Re: Child abusers, was Circumcision, njc [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: definitive covers (some JC) [AzeemAK@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 13:35:59 -0500 From: Carolyn Carmack Subject: FW: Circumcision, njc - -----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Carmack Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 1:35 PM To: 'Randy Remote' Subject: RE: Circumcision, njc I'm all for circumcision-it's prettier - -----Original Message----- From: Randy Remote [mailto:guitarzan@direcpc.com] Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 1:21 PM To: Laurent Olszer; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Circumcision, njc Laurent Olszer wrote: > My point is this: this so-called "crime" has been performed millions of > times. > If none of the "victims" ever complained, and many say they're happy with > it, > then perhaps the "crime" wasn't really one, wouldn't you say? I'm resending part of my last post on the subject, since you apparently ignored it the first time and won't let go of the mistaken notion that no one but Colin objects to circumcision. There are a number of organizations that challenge the popular notion of circumcision. There largest is called NOCIRC, and has 110 chapters worldwide. http://www.nocirc.org/ http://www.uvm.edu/~gdavis/nocirc/media.htm (shows a baby with arms and legs strapped to a table awaiting the procedure) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 13:35:37 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Today's Porridge Links - njc "Golden Eggs" writes: << What the heck - Bring it on Daddio! >> I can send you everything you need for "blanks" and postage! While the lovely lookin' Lady Lieve laments: << Master Murphy is turning Mean and Making Me Miserable!!! (SNIP) And then you really put the knife in, asking me where I learned English. Oooooh, that hurts! >> I am sorry, Lieve, but I am not known as "the nice Bob" for many reasons. I'll tell you what, get your check in for NE Jonifest today and you can brush up on your English when you get to the US! --Bob, trying to combine responses because he is way over-posting just when JMDL traffic has become bearable again . . . ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 13:40:05 EST From: JSerkes@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #104 Colin!! OUCCCHHHHH I dunno, it's a mystery about receptionists. Like I usually just want to say "hey, your just a receptionist, get over it!" Jody L. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 14:33:54 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: would you believe NJC JSerkes@aol.com wrote: > > I dunno, it's a mystery about receptionists. Like I usually just want to say > "hey, your just a receptionist Yeah, that's what receptionists, store clerks, waiters, secretaries, and anyone in a "lower level" job are constantly reminded of by everyone, the "customers" as well as the "higher ups". You're just a .... Studies have shown that such jobs can be more stressful than the "higher up" jobs of doctors, executives, etc. because of that lack of respect and having very little say about their work life, and by extension the rest of their life. The receptionist probably MUST be there at a certain time, for example, no matter what's going on at home; the executive can juggle and rearrange her/his schedule at will. So they have that flexibility, plus probably get paid 10 or more times what the receptionist gets paid. Unfortunately, the only way a person in such a support job has any "power" is to try to control the customer, which then just worsens the entire situation. If that need for control is what is being played out, I try to talk to someone else working there who, I hope, is in a better mood that day, that is, not feeling oppressed. Some days, though, being on the receiving end of such a "bad attitude" can get me instantly grumpy in response, no matter how much I usually try to look at the big picture, which includes keeping in mind that it's a basic human need in everyone to feel respected and appreciated, and if a person isn't getting that, hostility builds and is going to come out somehow. No one wants to be considered a "just a ...", a person with little value. I'm glad you got the care you needed, Colin. I don't understand your deodorant comment, though. You mean you can't shower, not even with some kind of plastic covering on your wounded appendage? Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 11:46:39 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: Boys play Girls, Hugh's Room, Toronto - sjc Catherine wrote:I just got my weekly e-mail from Hugh's Room (folk club in Toronto) and there's something posted for Sat Feb 15 called "Boys Play Girls", notable for the one I've marked with **these things** below: " Joey Wright as Lucinda Williams Dug Paisley as Gillian Welch Kurt Swinghammer as Laura Nyro Melwood Cutlery as Diana Ross Liam Titcomb as Katherine Wheatley **The Supers as Joni Mitchell** Blair Packham as... stay tuned Wendell Ferguson as... stay tuned" Of course, I have no idea who the Supers are, nor for that matter, who any of these other people are (the "boys" that is) but it's only $10 and of course I know who Joni Mitchell is. Apparently it takes more than one "boy" to equal one Joni Mitchell too. This info can be found at http://www.hughsroom.com> Any Torontoises interested in going to this? and now me: Liam Titcomb is the son of Brent Titcomb, you may have heard of him .. he's a regular in the southern ontario folk scene...you can see him at a number of the summer Folk Fest series as well as with the Oakville Folk club just down the road from you more or less. He's a sweet man, and a wonderful singer/songwriter. His son Liam is following right in his Dads footsteps which is so wonderful to see and yes I would love to come with you only...boohooo I cant just yet. Katherine Wheatley is another of the regular crew..shes amazing and Im sure this gang is going to have a fantastic time of it. When we come to town hopefully in the summer Catherine, we will have to get together and go to Hugh's . Its so great there. The best of the best. The llittle club where Eric Anderson performed in Oct 2001 when Joni came up on stage and sang with him ;-) Not sure who the Supers are...be sure to go and we look forward to your report!! just a little green eyed Mags ;-) You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:49:09 -0000 From: "Lucy Hone" Subject: Lucy's two pence worth on circumcision NJC My son HAD to have a circumcision at the age of 4. He had a foreskin that would not retract and they had tried to stretch it and it would not go.... ANYWAY.... he had it done and it was all OK... the surgeon who came to look at him after the "event" was obviously from somewhere in Africa and had tribal markings on his face. he was a really very very handsome man and extremely tall and with the most wonderful English accent. May I just explain that the town we live in has very few people who could be termed "black"...and I do apologise if this term upsets anyone but he had the most amazing blue black skin and Sam had never seen anyone that colour before. We were in a military hospital and this guy was from an overseas navy on secondment to the UK... Sam was sitting on the bed when the surgeon came in. He said hello to Sam who was wide eyed with wonder at this absolute vision in front of him. Now I was a little concerned as Sam could be rather precocious and had made some "interesting observations about people" in the past.For example a woman who was extremely well padded got asked "excuse me but why do you wear such fat trousers?" He was 4 and was just learning about what you could and could not say when people were in earshot and whether what you said was Ok to say or no.... I found myself feeling very very nervous. The surgeon asked Sam if he could have a look at the stiches and Sam duly presented his willy for inspection. All the time Sam was gazing wider and wider eyed at this man and was staring harder and harder.... My plams were starting to get clammy as I could sense a question coming. "Now Samuel", said the surgeon. "you must be very careful with your new willy and take care of it" "Oh I will," said Sam.."may i ask you a question?" "You may" said the surgeon obviously expecting something about his colour.... "Are you the King of England?" At this the surgeon laughed alsmost fit to burst.. he rocked back and forward and tears were streaming down his face "No, I am not, why do you ask?" "Oh its just you sound like Prince Charles' dad" The whole ward errupted in fits of laughter and Sam sat there very very solemn and a little confused.... For a long time Sam told people that "King Phillip (the queens husband as far as Sam was concerned has to be a king) cut the bits off my willy... he is really nice and is very tall" So that is my two pence on circumcision.... He lives with his lack of foreskin and I am sure eventually he may or may not discover over sensitivity or lack of it.To have left it as it was would have been to condemn him to continued infections, courses of antibiotics and pain, so it was done out of necessity... SOmehow I feel my mail should be about something noteworthy and thoughtful on the eve of some hefty summitting and sabre rattling. But no words on that score will come. I just hope that words of wisdom and peace will prevail so that we continue to have a world in which to continue our association as friends of Joni. Lucy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 15:07:22 -0500 From: Carolyn Carmack Subject: RE: Today's Library Links: February 9 - njc I like middle aged men!!! Carolyn - -----Original Message----- From: Susan Guzzi [mailto:groovchacha@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 1:13 PM To: Murphycopy@aol.com Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Today's Library Links: February 9 - njc Not really sure I want to sacrifice my "girlish" figure for a little Ethel or Ethan - hmmm - rethinking the childbirth thing. What the heck - Bring it on Daddio! Peace G. E. Guzzi - --- Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: > "Golden Eggs" writes: > > << HEY! I don't have a middle-aged man's body! Far from it baby - you > oughta know that! >> > > You can have this middle-aged man's body anytime you want to make our own > little Ethel or Ethan! > > XO, > > --Bob Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:07:17 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Lucy's two pence worth on circumcision NJC Lucy Hone wrote: >My son HAD to have a circumcision at the age of 4. He had a foreskin that >would not retract and they had tried to stretch it and it would not go.... > > a good non absuive reason to have it done. > >.For example a woman who >was extremely well padded got asked "excuse me but why do you wear such fat >trousers?" > LOL! out of the mouths of babes............ > > > >"Now Samuel", said the surgeon. "you must be very careful with your new willy >and take care of it" > >"Oh I will," said Sam.."may i ask you a question?" >"You may" said the surgeon obviously expecting something about his >colour.... >"Are you the King of England?" >At this the surgeon laughed alsmost fit to burst.. he rocked back and forward >and tears were streaming down his face >"No, I am not, why do you ask?" >"Oh its just you sound like Prince Charles' dad" >The whole ward errupted in fits of laughter and Sam sat there very very solemn >and a little confused.... > > > I like the sound of you charming son. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:10:38 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: would you believe NJC dsk wrote: > >I'm glad you got the care you needed, Colin. I don't understand your >deodorant comment, though. You mean you can't shower, not even with some >kind of plastic covering on your wounded appendage? > duh! why didn't i think of that! Tho seroiuosly, I am not due to bathe for another month-had one Sunday. Phew! That was lucky wasn't it? > >Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:12:32 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: would you believe NJC Catherine McKay wrote: > --- colin wrote: > > > >It all sounded like something that could be coped with >until you got to this: > > > >>And to top all that, I shall have to eat Hagen Daaz >>tonight... >> >> > >THAT is far too much of a burden for anyone to bear! >Give me your address and I'll be right over to help >you out with that, you poor boy you! > See there are good comapssionate peopl in this sad world of ours.... > > > >>thank god I can still use my machines-I'd really be >>upset if i >>couldn.'t...i might just be forced to circumcise >> >> >someone..... > >I'm so glad YOU brought that up first. I was going to >crack wise about somebody's finger having been >circumcised, but wasn't sure how well that might go >over! > Oh i think it would be quite a good way to let off steam. After all, I already know what my defence would be..... > > >===== >Catherine >Toronto > >______________________________________________________________________ >Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:09:41 -0000 From: "Stephen Toogood" Subject: Re: Gluten free cooking - success! (and porridge) NJC Lieve wrote:- > In fact, I'm just wondering: aren't oats gluten free? And buckwheat? I > certainly know that a friend of my kids who was allergic to wheat, could > eat those, but I'm not a gluten expert. COLIN??? Sorry not colin but I'll give my thoughts anyway. Okay buckwheat is gluten free as far as I know. Oats are a tricky one! They are considered to have gluten in but my dad spoke to a doctor and he said that he doesn't think they contain gluten, just that they are ussually proccesed in the same place as wheat so they get contaminated. I don't feel well if I eat something with gluten in but I make sure I have a bowl of porridge with honey every morning and I feel great. STEVE T NP: Society's Child by Janis Ian ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 12:11:10 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Circumcision, njc Carolyn Carmack wrote: > I'm all for circumcision-it's prettier Okay. I would've said 'less ugly', though.... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 12:13:08 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: queen's concert/brian wilson/etc/NJC The Byrds' early covers of Dylan; My Back Pages, etc Cream - Outside Woman Blues Linda Ronstadt - Blue Bayou Stones - Love In Vain Johnny Winter - Johnny B. Goode Hendrix - Hey Joe Elvis - Blue Suede Shoes, Hound Dog Eric Clapton - I Shot the Sheriff, Lay Down Sally Willie Nelson - too numerous to list ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 15:20:55 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: would you believe NJC colin wrote: > > dsk wrote: > > >I'm glad you got the care you needed, Colin. I don't understand your > >deodorant comment, though. You mean you can't shower, not even with some > >kind of plastic covering on your wounded appendage? > > > duh! why didn't i think of that! > Tho seroiuosly, I am not due to bathe for another month-had one Sunday. > Phew! That was lucky wasn't it? Glad you appreciate my sometimes remarkable talent for stating the obvious :-) Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:28:08 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: would you believe NJC dsk wrote: >colin wrote: > > >>> not even with some >>>kind of plastic covering on your wounded appendage? >>> >>> >> >> > >Glad you appreciate my sometimes remarkable talent for stating the >obvious :-) > will you come over and put in on for me? John is in Minniapolis or on his way or sowmehere anyway. I ahd thought of the surgicla gloves I use to examine the bitches with but have a feeling it won't go over that finger. > >Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 12:26:48 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: breaking news njc Marianne Rizzo wrote: > In the mean time, let's get working on promoting *renewable energy > technologies* and start commiting our investments to some serious > developments here. > > Where is the leader's energy policy? I was surprised to read that Pres. Bush made a bid for hydrogen fuel cell technology, pledging (I think) $10 million. They expect it to be a decade before it will be used in the US. Hydrogen fuel cells can supply pollution free energy to everything from automobiles to cell phones. I wonder why it will take so long. I know a couple of the Japanese car companies have working models now. I just hope there will be something left of the planet in 10 years. > And also, how about we never harm or annihilate any innocent being? This > being an utmost priority. Yeah! War on war. Just say no. If someone from another planet arrived and said, "Tell me about your planet, what is the main product of your civilization?" we would have to say "arms to kill each other". Pretty fuckin' embarrassing. RR ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 12:29:47 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: missle shield (njc) kakki wrote: > Lama, > > Where do you get your info that its been proven a failure over and over? You > can write me off-list if you want. As far as I know it was pretty much built > a long time ago. In fact, there have been successful tests of its technology > disseminated in the media. It's a pretty simple technology in the overall > scheme of today's knowledge. It hasn't been proven in an scenario of > preventing an actual incoming nuke, I suppose, but it has been shown to work > in other simulations. I still think it's a far better option that meeting a > incoming nuke with a return nuke. But wouldn't exploding a nuke release radioactivity into the atmosphere for all to breathe and get cancer? Also, I am pretty sure the failed tests far outweigh the successful ones. I recall the last one being faked. RR ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 03:05:47 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: DJRD - Help!! hi >>>> Kate wrote >>>>well its been decades since i read castenda but i do recall some scary peyote trips taking place & the above lines sure sound like one of them! lol... probably the most realistic interpretation :-) i was actually going to ask if that was a possibility - since im not too familiar with these type of drugs. but it seems that a lot of the song concerns visual images being mixed up. the the serpent resembling a train, and the eagle resembling an aeroplane, probably with joni being probably more familiar with the two. or is it just expressing the serpent and eagle in technological terms which are more relevant to many people today (and when she wrote the song) funny also that in this song the airliner represents clarity of thought. yet in amelia, jet aircraft "the drone of flying engines, is a song so wild and blue, it scrambles time and seasons, if it gets through to you" as well as other forms of flight seem to have such romantic connotations - "like icarus ascending, on beautiful foolish arms" and yet at the same time are lonely "maybe ive never really loved, maybe that is the truth, ive spent my whole life, in clouds at icy altitudes" kind of contradictory. like she always dreamed of loving people and soaring through the the skies on love, but in fact its always been cerebral. a love of the minds, and afraid to really commit her heart...the classic cry of someone who is ready, and makes a habit of giving love so generously, yet is scared of receiving it. but two parts that really get me are: What strange prizes these battles bring These hectic joys these weary blues Puffed up and strutting when I think I win Down and shaken when I think I lose and the real kicker in the song (well of the lines that im starting to understand) I touched you on the central plains It was plane to train my twin It was just plane shadow to train shadow But to me it was skin to skin the eagle and serpent meet together. she becomes one with (don juan??). really just an illusion, but so real and intimate to her. but im not too sure how this would be consistent with what i wrote above about amelia??? anyhow - enough thinking out loud!! if ya think im talking crap please be nice when you tell me :-) the song is so great, so confusing, and so compelling..... and i also just love the line: As we siphon the colored language Off the farms and the streets gee - ya think joni knew rap was coming????? :-) ron ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 15:42:47 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: would you believe NJC > colin wrote: > > will you come over and put in on for me? John is in Minniapolis or on > his way or sowmehere anyway. > I ahd thought of the surgicla gloves I use to examine the bitches with > but have a feeling it won't go over that finger. Sure, let me pack my box of baggies and first-aid tape and head on over to the British Air terminal... Debra Shea P.S. Shall I bring the ice cream, too? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 21:43:10 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Re: Circumcision, njc > I'm resending part of my last post on the subject, since you > apparently ignored it the first time and won't let go of the mistaken > notion that no one but Colin objects to circumcision. > OK, but how about JMDLers who are circumcised. Any complaints here? Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 21:51:40 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: definitive covers >>I would be hard-pressed to categorize every one of the 75 or so Woodstock's I've heard,<< Bob, get help, right now. You know I'm right. mike in bcn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 15:49:47 -0500 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: Circumcision, njc Count me in. Would have rather been left as nature made me. Jerry Laurent Olszer wrote: >>I'm resending part of my last post on the subject, since you >>apparently ignored it the first time and won't let go of the mistaken >>notion that no one but Colin objects to circumcision. >> > > OK, but how about JMDLers who are circumcised. Any complaints here? > > Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 15:02:26 -0600 From: David Sadowski Subject: Re: Circumcision, njc Well, I am circumcised... perhaps we can run some experiments to test the sensitivity of this area, assuming there are some women out there who like middle aged men. These experiments could go on for quite some time. Meow. - -Dave Laurent Olszer wrote: >>I'm resending part of my last post on the subject, since you >>apparently ignored it the first time and won't let go of the mistaken >>notion that no one but Colin objects to circumcision. >> >> >> >OK, but how about JMDLers who are circumcised. Any complaints here? > >Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 13:04:50 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Circumcision, njc How can you complain about something that happened to you in the first week of your life? It doesn't mean it wasn't traumatizing. In fact, it's two different things; I'm not complaining about personally being circumcized, I'm objecting to performing an unneeded procedure on helpless babies without their consent. Laurent Olszer wrote: > > I'm resending part of my last post on the subject, since you > > apparently ignored it the first time and won't let go of the mistaken > > notion that no one but Colin objects to circumcision. > > > OK, but how about JMDLers who are circumcised. Any complaints here? > > Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 22:09:30 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: RE: circumcision another view NJC >>at the risk of sounding facetious or plain silly, then why are you charged only 8 dollars at j's hang out in nyc if you're uncut? to me it seems that most american men consider cut guys UNcool (i'm talking about men who look at dicks THAT way). cut guys have to pay 10 dollars. i just go to the guy at ticket window, flash him and i pay 8 bucks to get in. i guess it's the only lucky aspect of having born in argentina, where you they would remove your tonsils but they'd leave your dick alone.<< Hi Wally, Let me see if I understand you correctly (above). You show your dick to complete strangers in a night club in order to save two bucks? Gee(z), that corralito must be really hurting... Congratulations on the visa. meic in bcn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 16:14:11 -0500 From: Carolyn Carmack Subject: RE: Circumcision, njc I'll volunteer to be a willing subject!!! Carolyn > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com@DONNELLYE On Behalf Of David Sadowski > > Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 4:02 PM > To: Joni > Subject: Re: Circumcision, njc > > Well, I am circumcised... perhaps we can run some experiments to test > the sensitivity of this area, assuming there are some women out there > who like middle aged men. These experiments could go on for quite some > time. > > Meow. > > -Dave > > Laurent Olszer wrote: > > >>I'm resending part of my last post on the subject, since you > >>apparently ignored it the first time and won't let go of the mistaken > >>notion that no one but Colin objects to circumcision. > >> > >> > >> > >OK, but how about JMDLers who are circumcised. Any complaints here? > > > >Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 16:12:49 -0500 From: BRIANASYMES@aol.com Subject: The last fore skin post please njc 1.God is the infinite creative force of our universe and does not recognize the painful mutilation of the penis to show our love. 2. Why is when we do something so unlogical that you pull out the Bible for support, like it is a universal scientific dictionary, it is not! It was written by men who still thought the earth was the center of the universe. 3.I would rather believe in the goddess of infinite compassion than a god of arhaic symbolism. Brian ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 15:15:15 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Circumcision, njc Laurent, a philosophical point first: Just because victims of a crime don't complain about it doesn't mean that no crime has been committed. Even if they're happy with the results, it doesn't mean there was no crime. Imagine that an evil surgeon kidnapped me, drugged me, and performed liposuction and breast enhancement on me. I might wake up delighted with the results, but that wouldn't mean he hadn't committed a crime by operating without my consent. Secondly, just a few minutes on the internet will reveal many men who are unhappy this was done to them - some had it as babies, some as adults. They talk mainly about a lack of sensitivity. One man who had it done as an adult describes post-circumcision sex as "in monochrome, rather than technicolour". Others talk of marriages breaking up because of how long it takes them to have an orgasm. Some men try to "reconstruct" their foreskins - I believe by stretching them over time. I have no idea what percentage of men wish it hadn't been done to them, but certainly high enough to warrant taking another look at doing it. And I agree with Colin about the issue of consent and children. Children have so much done to them without their consent - seems to me we shouldn't add to that burden with (as I see it) unnecessary surgery. I'm not even happy with the idea of innoculations. I know all the arguments in favour of them, and they're good arguments, but even so. . . I only found out a few years ago that my polio vaccination was derived from a monkey virus (because of the time frame I was given it), and that this virus stays in your body for the rest of your life, and can cause a lot of problems. I wouldn't have given my consent for this to be done to me. But of course, I wasn't asked. But the people who made that decision for me (parents, doctor) aren't the ones walking around today with a monkey virus inside them. Sarah At 10:21 AM -0800 02/10/2003, Randy Remote wrote: >Laurent Olszer wrote: > >> My point is this: this so-called "crime" has been performed millions of >> times. >> If none of the "victims" ever complained, and many say they're happy with >> it, > then perhaps the "crime" wasn't really one, wouldn't you say? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 13:19:04 -0800 (PST) From: Thom Byrd Subject: Liebowitz Photos* Does anyone on this list know where I can find the photos that Annie Liebowitz {sp~?} took of Joni. thom Keep your pencil sharp, thom http://thombyrd.tripod.com/index.html Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 15:19:37 -0600 From: David Sadowski Subject: Re: Circumcision, njc How willing? Carolyn Carmack wrote: >I'll volunteer to be a willing subject!!! >Carolyn > > > >> -----Original Message----- >>From: owner-joni@jmdl.com@DONNELLYE On Behalf Of David Sadowski >> >>Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 4:02 PM >>To: Joni >>Subject: Re: Circumcision, njc >> >>Well, I am circumcised... perhaps we can run some experiments to test >>the sensitivity of this area, assuming there are some women out there >>who like middle aged men. These experiments could go on for quite some >>time. >> >>Meow. >> >>-Dave >> >>Laurent Olszer wrote: >> >> >> >>>>I'm resending part of my last post on the subject, since you >>>>apparently ignored it the first time and won't let go of the mistaken >>>>notion that no one but Colin objects to circumcision. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>OK, but how about JMDLers who are circumcised. Any complaints here? >>> >>>Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 13:24:43 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Circumcision, njc >>My point is this: this so-called "crime" has been performed millions of times.If none of the "victims" ever complained<< i don't mean to be argumentative (& to recap- i see nor reason for the procedure as a rule but still believe this to fall under the category of personal choice, although hopefully an educated one which, imo, would lead to choosing NOT to do the procedure)... anyway...to say that none of the 'victims' complained? how does one know this if most of those undergoing the procedure are infants...who, by the time they are old enough to voice their opinon, will not remember it...? ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 13:33:31 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Wall to Wall Joni in New York thanks paul, the link in the article goes to the jonimitchell.com site btw... can someone tell me more about this event? how many years has it been going on? how long is the event? hours?days? nonstop? who is the producer? is it by invitation or can someone submit to perform? Found this http://www.symphonyspace.org/genres/eventPage.php?genreId=1&eventId=287 >Symphony Space presents Wall to Wall Joni Mitchell (Mar 22, 2003, 11:00am) ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 16:35:36 -0500 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: Wall to Wall Joni in New York Looks like it is going to be great. My travel mate pooped out on me. If anyone is interested in going and sharing a room, let me know. Jerry Kate Bennett wrote: > thanks paul, the link in the article goes to the jonimitchell.com site > btw... > > can someone tell me more about this event? how many years has it been going > on? how long is the event? hours?days? nonstop? who is the producer? is it > by invitation or can someone submit to perform? > > Found this > http://www.symphonyspace.org/genres/eventPage.php?genreId=1&eventId=287 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 16:46:32 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: circumcision another view NJC In a message dated 2/10/03 4:10:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, ink08@hotmail.com writes: > Hi Wally, > Let me see if I understand you correctly (above). You show your dick to > complete strangers in a night club in order to save two bucks? Mike, they do that at Dairy Queen, Star Bucks, and even Block Buster video's now. It's the new trendy thing to do in the USA. ;~) Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:00:01 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: circumcision freebees NJC Jimmy writes: << Mike, they do that at Dairy Queen, Star Bucks, and even Block Buster video's now. It's the new trendy thing to do in the USA. ;~) >> Also, Mike, make sure to do it to the hostess at Hooters. I hear you get a free meal and drinks! When did you ever get such a deal from sheep! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 23:05:09 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Re: Circumcision, njc Sarah wrote: > Laurent, a philosophical point first: Just because victims of a > crime don't complain about it doesn't mean that no crime has been > committed> I'll go along with that. Secondly, just a few minutes on the internet will reveal many men who > are unhappy this was done to them I suppose you'd find unhappy people about just anything, good or bad. Others talk of marriages > breaking up because of how long it takes them to have an orgasm. Don't have that problem, thank G.. My colleague's mate and also a friend's father who had it done as adults had no such side effects, neither a decrease in the quality of orgasm. Which as you said doesn't mean this never happens. > I have no idea what percentage of men wish it hadn't been done to > them, but certainly high enough to warrant taking another look at > doing it. > OK so there are negative side effects for a percentage of the population. However, Randy complains not about the side effects but about the lack of consent, which you also mention. There does not appear to be evidence today that Randy was traumatized as a baby, although he very well might have been. Jerry's complaint is, I hope, more philosophical (being left as nature intended) than about having severe side effects. I can understand all 3 of you about the consent issue, and there's nothing to argue since there can be no consent from a baby. I for one didn't advocate one way or the other, aside from "the Covenant" which I respect. Still, to condemn it as as severe a crime as pedophilia is exaggerated IMO. Reason is this: a pedophile's victim is almost guaranteed to have severe trauma for the rest of his/her life, and to spend years in therapy, finding it difficult to have a normal relationship, etc. On the other hand, only a small percentage of circumcision "victims" will have severe side effects. The only thing in common about the 2 is most victims can't help in reproducing the pattern, but for different reasons. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 22:21:53 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Circumcision, njc >Still, to condemn it as as severe a crime as pedophilia is exaggerated IMO. > No one did that. >Reason is this: a pedophile's victim is almost guaranteed to have severe >trauma for the rest of his/her life, and to spend years in therapy, finding >it difficult to have a normal relationship, etc. > >The only thing in common about the 2 is most victims can't help in >reproducing the pattern, but for different reasons. > this is ignorant twaddle. the vast majority of peodophile victims DO NOT end up being peodophiles. No wonder such victims still hide it when such ignorance still persists. > >Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:20:58 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Circumcision, njc Laurent writes: << The only thing in common about the 2 is most victims can't help in reproducing the pattern, but for different reasons. >> I don't mean to jump on you while everyone else is taking you to task for your religious belief in circumcision, Laurent, but are you saying that "most" victims of child abuse become child abusers? I don't think that's true, although I am not sure. Do you know something I don't know? --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 22:29:03 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Circumcision, njc Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: >"most" victims of child abuse become child abusers? I don't think that's >true, although I am not sure. > you can be absolutely certain that it is not the case, at least in reference to sexual abuse. > Do you know something I don't know? > > --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:32:47 -0500 From: Bruce Kimerer Subject: definitive covers (some JC) Bob wrote: "I would be hard-pressed to categorize every one of the 75 or so Woodstock's I've heard, but I can honestly say that more imitate the MSC version than the CSNY version. Using that criteria, it could be argued that the MSC cover is more definitive than the CSNY cover..." I have to confess I have no recollection of the MSC version of that song. I recall the name of the group, but can't remember any of their music. On a related Woodstock note: I dragged out my vinyl of LOTC (I don't have it on CD) and listened to the original version of Woodstock again -- I hadn't listened to the LOTC Joni rendition in a long time (years). And I was struck by the fact that the song is not performed as some sort of hippie anthem at all. (CSNY turned it into almost a march.) In fact, it has much of the same mood that she uses on Traveloque, though orchestrated differently -- and that spooky choir vocal at the end. Wow! So strange -- and hardly ends the song on an '....and-we-all-lived-happily-ever-after-once-we-got-back-to-the- garden' note. Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 16:29:33 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: RE: NJC objectivity in journalism Kate, what you wrote about cultural sensitivity is interesting. On the one hand, we have to be careful not to judge other cultures according to the rules we apply to ourselves, and the example you gave is a good one - of it being a cultural practice among Black Americans to shout during speeches to show approval. But in another way, it's important to recognize that human beings brought up with different cultural norms are human beings just like us, and sometimes, taking account of cultural differences can end up being patronizing, almost an inverse racism. It's hard to know where to find the balance between recognizing and respecting cultural differences, but also having a baseline of some moral values that we're prepared to impose on everyone, as well as acknowledging that human beings everywhere deserve basic human rights. If we always respect cultural difference, then we'd end up having to respect the practice of female clitoridectomy, just to give one example. Sarah At 12:24 PM -0800 02/09/2003, Kate Bennett wrote: >"In covering the Afghanistan war, Pitts said, "I wanted to avoid the >temptation to label people with terms like 'savage,' words like that, which >journalists have used in the past to describe minority communities in the >United States. Those words are loaded with the biases of the reporter and >have no basis, and I didn't want to make the same mistake in referring to >the Afghanistan people." He remembered covering a Jesse Jackson speech in a >small southern church a few years ago, where the black audience was shouting >vehemently as Jackson talked. "Some of my colleagues thought these people >were upset and angry with Jackson, that because the people were shouting >they must have disagreed and were voicing their disapproval," Pitts said. "I >had to explain that in the culture of Black America, shouting was actually >their sign of total agreement with what Jackson had to say. I had to bring >the same sensitivity to covering the people and the war in Afghanistan." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 23:37:06 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Re: Circumcision, njc > I don't mean to jump on you while everyone else is taking you to task for > your religious belief in circumcision, Laurent, but are you saying that > "most" victims of child abuse become child abusers? I don't think that's > true, although I am not sure. Do you know something I don't know? > > --Bob Yes that's exactly what I'm saying. I don't have 1st hand knowledge about this, but I've heard it all over for years. I thought it was common knowledge, I guess not. Please don't jump on me for generalizing, there are exceptions to every rule. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 22:38:14 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Circumcision, njc Laurent Olszer wrote: >>I don't mean to jump on you while everyone else is taking you to task for >>your religious belief in circumcision, Laurent, but are you saying that >>"most" victims of child abuse become child abusers? I don't think that's >>true, although I am not sure. Do you know something I don't know? >> >> --Bob >> >> > >Yes that's exactly what I'm saying. > you are dead wrong. > I don't have 1st hand knowledge about >this, > i do have first hand knowledge-16 years of it and 28tears recovering. > but I've heard it all over for years. I thought it was common >knowledge, I guess not. > generalizing, there are exceptions to every >rule. > the rule IS that the vast majority of childhood sexual abuse survvivors DO NOT GROW UP TO BE ABUSERS OF CHILDREN. Those abuse victims (not survivors) who do grow up to be absuers, are the exception, not the rule. > >Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 16:24:32 -0700 From: Dan Olson Subject: Re: definitive covers (some JC) One very interesting thing about Woodstock on LOTC is Joni playing (solo) ELECTRIC piano (a Wurlitzer, I believe). I don't recall her doing that on any other songs (did she?). Of course, Herbie Hancock plays very distinctive Fender-Rhodes electric piano on Mingus, and Joni's 80's albums had lots of electronic keyboards (played by her and others), after the demise of the electric piano, which went the way of the turntable. Well I finally got my turntable working properly, so I've been listenting to a lot of Joni's albums that I don't also have on CD. I found it interesting that on NRH (which I have on vinyl), in "Nothing Can be Done", the music was by LARRY KLEIN (words by Joni). And on "The Only Joy in Town," Joni plays OBOE. Who knew? >On a related Woodstock note: I dragged out my vinyl of LOTC (I don't have it >on CD) and listened to the original version of Woodstock again -- I hadn't >listened to the LOTC Joni rendition in a long time (years). And I was struck >by the fact that the song is not performed as some sort of hippie anthem at >all. (CSNY turned it into almost a march.) In fact, it has much of the same >mood that she uses on Traveloque, though orchestrated differently -- and >that spooky choir vocal at the end. Wow! So strange -- and hardly ends the >song on an '....and-we-all-lived-happily-ever-after-once-we-got-back-to-the- >garden' note. > >Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:22:03 -0500 (EST) From: waytoblu Subject: Hell fecking yeah!!(njc) I just moved into my new apartment this weekend in Decatur...get this-- everything is brand new... floors, cabinets, appliances (it even has a high tech dishwasher), huge walk-in closet, laundry room down the hall. None of the rooms are square....the walls and ceiling all have interesting angles and curves...the man who designed this house was a genius. He died last year, before the house was completely finished and his family completed the construction and decided to rent out apartments which were originally intended for visiting family members. The craziest thing is they are only charging a little more than half of what they could be charging. I'm still not convinced that I actually live there(it seems too nice-I'm used to living in rundown old houses so this is a nice change...very fortuitous.) I start working at a brand new Whole Foods Market in March (coincidence?) Victor...exicited to be able to pick up more than one channel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:41:11 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Circumcision, njc Laurent wrote: > Yes that's exactly what I'm saying. I don't have 1st hand knowledge about > this, but I've heard it all over for years. I thought it was common > knowledge, I guess not. > Please don't jump on me for generalizing, there are exceptions to every > rule. > > Laurent, I can see why you're saying what you are saying. I have volunteered for the Abuse Counseling Treatment center here in Ft. Myers for a few years. I have also read articles how abused victims become abusers themselves. There are some studies that support this. PLUS the media belts this theory into our heads, but like Colin and Bob have said, this is not entirely true. IMO, most abused victims don't become abusers, but some do, especially the ones who don't seek *some* kind of help. Anyway, just want you to know that I'm not jumping on you, and perfectly understand why you would think this. Jimmy (who will probably be thrown off the list for 3 circumcision posts today) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 15:57:50 -0800 (PST) From: hell Subject: Re: Child abusers, was Circumcision, njc Jimmy wrote: > Laurent, I can see why you're saying what you are saying. I have > volunteered for the Abuse Counseling Treatment center here in Ft. > Myers for a few years. I have also read articles how abused victims > become abusers themselves. There are some studies that support this. > PLUS the media belts this theory into our heads, but like Colin and > Bob have said, this is not entirely true. IMO, most abused victims > don't become abusers, but some do, especially the ones who don't seek > *some* kind of help. I think if you turn the statement around, it's more likely to be true (from what I've read myself), ie. those people who ARE child abusers are more likely to have been abused themselves, rather than saying "all those who are abused will become abusers", which is not the case. And note that I said "are more likely to become" not "will become" as there are certainly child abusers out there who were not victims themselves. Hell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:05:32 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Child abusers, was Circumcision, njc In a message dated 2/10/03 6:56:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, hell@ihug.co.nz writes: > I think if you turn the statement around, it's more likely to be true (from > what I've read myself), ie. those people who ARE child abusers are more > likely to have been abused themselves, rather than saying "all those who > are > abused will become abusers", which is not the case. Oh Hell, very well said. That is what I really wanted to say. Now get your beautiful smiling face over to the USA soon!!! Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:17:15 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: definitive covers (some JC) In a message dated 10/02/2003 23:21:31 GMT Standard Time, bass@flatironsjazz.com writes: << And on "The Only Joy in Town," Joni plays OBOE. Who knew? >> This is a credit that puzzled me, and it is frankly a lie! Someone enlightened us on this a while ago, I can't remember who. Apparently the oboe was sampled and just played on a keyboard. It's a small point, but I thought that was a really dishonest thing to put in the credits. Don't much like the song either! Azeem in London ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #105 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)