From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #100 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, February 8 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 100 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- circumcision (probably NJC!!!) ["ron" ] Jonifest 2003 [AsharaProducLLC@aol.com] NJC Ready to fling those frisbees! [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] official bootlegs - it was only a matter of time NJC ["ron" ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #45 [Bobsart48@aol.com] Jonifest 2003 - photos from last year ["Lori Fye" ] Then and Now [KLCass21@aol.com] Re: The Hours (NJC) [Susan Guzzi ] Circumcision another view, njc ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: JC Bobs not guilty - Fred said [Freddyb4@aol.com] Re: Circumcision another view, njc [colin ] Re: NJC but may interest Joni only folk - Fred [Freddyb4@aol.com] Re: journalism, articles and opinions NJC ["kasey simpson" ] Re: "chelsea morning" and "the house for unwed mothers" ["Kate Bennett" ] Circumcision, njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Circumcision, njc [Randy Remote ] Subject: Joni In Fiction now NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: journalism, articles and opinions NJC [colin ] RE: welfare, grants and housing (njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: journalism, articles and opinions NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: njc circumscision another view [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Circumcision, njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: njc circumscision another view ["Kate Bennett" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 13:17:03 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: circumcision (probably NJC!!!) hi >>>>lotsa talka bout circumcision then vince wrote >>>>Because they bear on their most important body part the mark of the covenant of God, circumcision was only a sign of the covenant to the jewish race. never referred to as a sign of the covenant in christianity, which talks about circumcision of the heart. i.e. a stripping away of the flesh so that the heart can be exposed. pretty much like pretty much everything else in the old testament being a physically based foreshadfowing of the new covenant. anyhow - i would be surprised if circumcision were a jewish based tradition only. lotsa different tribes esp in africa use circumcision to denote a male passing into manhood. (i dunno - maybe they came into contact with some jewish missionaries somewhere along the line!!) i guess the general view is that if you can handle circumcision with a blunt & rusty & dirty old blade, odds are youre gonna survive anything. actually, after what the kids go through prior to circumcision (im talking about traditional african circumcision here) i reckon the actual act of circumcision, and the knowledge theyre gonna go home comes almost as a relief. we had something like 12/13/ deaths on a circumcision camp here last winter. living in the mountains, naked, with just a single blanket, in the open, no shelter, no food, nothing. the survivors were shown on tv & they couldnt even move, just lying there in a big huddled pile. ron np - richard thompson - the ghost of you walks - maxwells, nj 22.07.00 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 07:29:46 EST From: AsharaProducLLC@aol.com Subject: Jonifest 2003 At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I only have 19 people (out of the at least 80 expected this year) signed up for Jonifest 2003. I am still over $1,000 short of being able to send in the deposit for Full Moon which was due on February 1st. I am going to call Full Moon to ask for an extension, but at this point, if I don't have at least 20 more deposits by February 15th, I will have to seriously think of not doing the Fest this year. Please don't procrastinate any longer, and get the deposits to me if you are planning on attending. And if you have been to Jonifest in the past but know that you will *not* be attending this year, please e-mail me privately so I can see if we truly have enough interest to move forward. Also, if you are planning on attending and there is no possible way to get the deposit to me by February 15th, please e-mail me privately and let me know that as well. I really hate to be pulling teeth like this. Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 08:43:12 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Ready to fling those frisbees! Thanks to all who took a shot at winning a giveaway copy of Covers #37. My song du jour was "Refuge Of The Roads" from Travelogue. I'm happy to announce the winners as follows: David Sapp - Grand prize Bob "Kreskin" Murphy - second place tied with- Gerry from the UK Thanks again - enjoy the music! Bob NP: Dave Matthews Band, "Don't Drink The Water" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 15:44:14 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: official bootlegs - it was only a matter of time NJC This was posted on the Lee Shore: Instant live CDs of a concert? Testing to begin in Boston By Steve Morse, Globe Staff, 2/7/2003 Experiments are rife in the music business these days -- and Boston will be a test market for one of the most novel of them. Clear Channel Concerts, the nation's largest concert promoter, has ambitious plans to record live CDs of its shows and sell them to patrons within five minutes after those shows end. Clear Channel is targeting Boston as the first site for the new plan, according to sources within the organization. Multiple CD burners would be brought in, and the live CDs would probably sell for around $15 in the same way that T-shirts and other merchandise can be purchased after concerts. No one knows what the demand would be, but the project is expected to begin at club shows within a couple of months, then be refined and work its way up to the amphitheater level, though that may not happen until next year, sources say. Clear Channel spokeswoman Pam Fallon would not confirm or deny word of the CD burning and sales plan. ''All I can say is that we're working on a series of initiatives in the next couple of months,'' she said. Clear Channel vice president Steve Simon, who works at Cambridge's Clear Channel office and has helped manage the platinum-selling band Boston, is said to be heading the project. This story ran on page C3 of the Boston Globe on 2/7/2003. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 14:29:23 +0000 From: colin Subject: circumsicion njc The comparison between mutilating a baby's penis and vaccination is not legitimate. Nor is some idea based on a non proven story. Nor because Daddies want their sons to look like them!!!! Respect for children and their bodies ought to be paramount. If a man wants to be cuircumscised for whateevr reaosn he chooses, that is fine. No one has the right, ehtically, to make such a choice for a child UNLESS it is a medical necessity in the present i.e not to prevent a possibility. Perhaps we would have a different world, a better one, if childrens boundaries and bodies and minds were considered sacred and not for the use of adults to fulfill their ideals. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 10:09:15 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #45 Gary reported > "Portrait In Red And Green" was also mentioned in the below post. It's > pretty obvious, but I also found this song in the copyright books when I > lived in New York. Always guessed it was the original title of the > song, "Marcie." > > > Yes, on one of the early bootlegs (maybe second fret sets ?) she introduces Marcie by this earlier title. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 07:11:17 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Jonifest 2003 - photos from last year Folks, I'm the person responsible for holding up the progress on getting last year's photos on the JMDL Jonifest page (http://www.jmdl.com/jonifest/) - and I apologize for that, life gets in the way sometimes (and I do most of my posting from work) - but Chris Marshall has many of those photos on his website site, here: http://www.hatstand.org/gallery/ Please have a look and see what it's all about!! We had a WONDERFUL time last year, and I'm really looking forward to getting together with lots of you this year! If you'd like to "get back to the garden," please visit http://www.jonifest.com and sign up and, most importantly, PAY your deposit so we can have the best Jonifest ever this summer! I'm a nudgin' ... ; ) Lori, who has already promised to finish getting last year's photos ready THIS WEEKEND ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 10:19:13 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: cliff chase essay Thanks, Patrick, for the recommendation. I found the read very interesting and insightful. Do you know if he ever finished/published the book that this essay purported to begin ? For those of us who do not know already, when patrick posts, it pays to partake :-) > it was an essay by cliff chase, that you can find on jonimitchell.com, that > for me crystalized something of her appeal to gay men, at least. like many > people here, my first internet search was joni mitchell and i consumed > wally > breese's site. and that essay is still one of the finest things i've read. > i highly recommend it. here's the link to part 1 (there're three parts) > > http://www.jonimitchell.com/TroubleChildPart1.html Bobs'art ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 07:22:10 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: NJC Two great articles on war Interesting. Thanks for sharing, Sarah. One question: WHY ARE WE IGNORING NORTH KOREA? Is it because a) N. Korea has nothing we want, or b) because W wants to finish Daddy's old business, or c) because W is afraid to tangle with a country he cannot so obviously obliterate? Inquiring minds want to know. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 10:22:08 EST From: Aerchak@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #45 Aussie ebay bootlegger I had acutally written to him suggesting to him that I had infromation sugeesting he was a bootlegger (after Bob's post) and that he might want to be careful about what he was representing as "personal collections" as the folks at the JMDL were rather protective about all things related to Joni. His reply initially was " so don't bid" and then was "who are you?". After that I deleted all my messages and didn't respond as I had obviously pissed him off. So I am delighted that ebay threw him off. I have found my experiences on ebay to be very positive so need to have shady exploiters, especially when it comes to Joni. Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 07:28:55 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: NJC Two great articles on war > Heehee "Heehee"? Wow, Kakki. Wow. I'm stunned. Truly. WWJS? (What would Joni say?) Sitting in a park in Paris France Reading the news and it sure looks bad They won't give peace a chance That was just a dream some of us had They want you they need you They train you to kill To be a pin on some map Some vicarious thrill The old hate the young That's the whole heartless thing The old pick the wars We die in 'em To the beat of the beat of black wings Study war no more Lay down your arms Study war no more Lay 'em down lay 'em down now Study war no more Lay down your arms Study war no more And I dreamed I saw the bombers Riding shotgun in the sky And they were turning into butterflies Above our nation Lori, saying give peace a chance ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 10:42:56 -0600 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: Re: NJC Ready to fling those frisbees! FANTASTIC - I never thought I would win one of these. Thanks so much Bob. peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 11:38:23 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Ready to fling those frisbees! In a message dated 2/8/2003 11:30:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, davidsapp@peoplepc.com writes: > FANTASTIC - I never thought I would win one of these. > Yes, David...dreams really do come true! :~) It's heading your way, along with a box chock full o' cool Joni stuff. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 09:06:07 -0800 From: Lindsay Moon Subject: The Hours (NJC) Susan wrote: <> A very good movie for me too, Susan. (I was waiting for someone to post about it.) I too thought the performances were wonderful ... although I also felt it was something of a true "ensemble" piece because of the performances of the supporting cast -- the man who played Virginia's husband ... the child who played Julianne Moore's son (I won't say anything further) ... he was positively spooky he was so good I thought. The friend I went with doesn't have much of an appetite for brooding movies (whereas *I* on the other hand ...) and remarked that Julianne Moore's performance had "too much staring off into space." Well, whatever. I joked with her that all those women could probably have used a good dose of Prozac ... Excellent film, though. I'm hoping to next see "Adaptation." In another movie vein, I'm itching to get a board game I noticed in a Restoration Hardware catalog, something about movie trivia. The only problem is no one around me knows as much about movies as I do so I'd probably be sitting in the living room all by myself answering the cards I'm reading saying to myself, "Oh, nice answer Lindsay!" "Man, I never would have gotten *that* one, Lindsay!" I'm ill. Very, very ill. Lindsay ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 12:16:29 EST From: KLCass21@aol.com Subject: Then and Now Hi Everyone, This morning while searching the depths of my closet for a book to lend a friend, I came across a journal I kept while taking a creative writing class in college. I curiously flipped through and I found a page on which I had documented each of Joni's albums up to that date, listing them in order of which I considered my favorites -(I must have been waiting for paint to dry or something, I don't know!). Then under each album, I had written which song was my favorite and which was my least. I find this discovery so fascinating as this journal was written prior to the release of NRH, but after CMIARS, and I have come to realize how much my perceptions and tastes have changed over the past dozen years. For instance, I listed Joni's most accessible albums as my 3 favorites; C&S, Blue and LOTC. Yes, I still love these recordings, but my tastes have really progressed so that today my top 3 are from her more adventuresome period; Hejira, DJRD and HOSL. I have also come to realize that I like Joni's 80's efforts much more now, than back in the 80's! DED RULES!!! As far as favorite/least favorite songs, I was again surprised at how they have rotated in and out of favor. Some of the songs I had listed as least favorite 12 years ago, mean so much to me know: Jericho, Cactus Tree, Edith, Wolf, Beat of Black Wings for example. Favorites from back then include songs I rarely listen to now; Help Me, WTRF, Circle Game and Conversation. And some of my notations are just plain bizarre; I actually wrote down that my favorite song on CMIARS was Reoccurring Dream. What was I thinking? I'll blame it on the paint fumes! Anyway, never found the book I was looking for, but I did find an interesting window into my insights from a past time and place. Pretty cool. Just thought I'd come out of the shadows and share that interesting find. Kurt ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 09:33:10 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: The Hours (NJC) Hi Lindsay, Yes I think you are right a true "ensemble" piece. I wondered about the little boy, was he that good or was he that well directed! Lindsay wrote: > I too thought the performances were wonderful ... although I > also felt it was something of a true "ensemble" piece because of the > performances of the supporting cast -- the man who played Virginia's > husband ... the child who played Julianne Moore's son (I won't say anything further) ... he was positively spooky he was so good I thought. I love a good brooding movie! LOL! Well it was just so thought provoking and intelligent, and scary as far as our own subconcious and dark sides. Lindsay Said: The friend I went with doesn't have much of an appetite for brooding movies (whereas > *I* on the other hand ...) and remarked that Julianne Moore's performance > had "too much staring off into space." Well, whatever. I joked with her that all those women could probably have used a good dose of Prozac ... I saw "Adaptation" Thursday night - very good. I loved the concept and the view from the writer's mind, that actually I got in both of these films. I never dreamed it was going to turn into what it turned into. I would like to see them both a second time, soon. Being something of an amateur writer, I loved seeing and hearing some of the thoughts that went throught their heads, made me feel less crazy! So nice to see artsy - more indie type movies getting accolades and box office, not to mention big names to play in them. BTW, Mery Streep is freaking sexy and smart, a real turn on for me! > Excellent film, though. I'm hoping to next see "Adaptation." > > Lindsay: > I'm reading saying to myself, "Oh, nice answer Lindsay!" "Man, I never > would have gotten *that* one, Lindsay!" I'm ill. Very, very ill. > I'm afraid you are ill Lindsay, but that's a quality I happen to share and love! Peace, Susan NP: Rickie Lee/Last Chance Texaco Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 18:20:48 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Circumcision another view, njc Vince I love your post. Colin: you say many complain. Assuming there are about 200 american males on JMDL, who are circumcised, I haven't read any first hand complaints. Kasey wrote: > Nor having one of those nasty bugger, I would have guessed > the heart or brain was the most important body part. > This reminds me of a joke about jews' contribution to mankind. First came Abraham who said the most important part was the head: what you believe. Then came Jesus, who said to love one another, so the most important was the heart. Then another 1900 years later things speed up: Freud said the key is below the belt. Marx said it's your arms (labor, please forgive the gross simplification) And then came Einstein who said it's all relative. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 13:24:07 EST From: Freddyb4@aol.com Subject: Re: JC Bobs not guilty - Fred said Everyone - Bobs not guilty, the question was mine, I just felt as Joni Mitchell is the reason I came to this site and it's mixed bag of people, I should ask a Joni question. I take it Bob is "Mr Info" when it comes to Joni, so here are some more questions. Books about or by Joni - are any outstanding "Must Haves ??" Is there a book of her lyrics, with the stories behind her songs ?? Are there books about her paintings?? Fred I have found my e-mails do not travel very well. If I had written the following I'v found my e-mails don't travel very well, this would happen, or will it ? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 18:30:59 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Circumcision another view, njc >. > >Colin: you say many complain. Assuming there are about 200 american males >on JMDL, >who are circumcised, I haven't read any first hand complaints. > and what does that prove? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 14:10:03 EST From: Freddyb4@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC but may interest Joni only folk - Fred Found this site about the artist Labi Siffri, the section that begins "If you read" explains perfectly my feelings, about how we each understand or misunderstand, things we hear people say, or the things that they may write. Just as we now pass judgement on something that happened 20, 50, 100 years ago, Bloody Sunday in northern Ireland, Deaths that occured in "Civil Rights" marches and protests in the sixties, the treatment of Confederate and Boer war families in US or British concentration camps, or the issue of Slavery. We like to think we would never be involved in anything like that, but we are looking back with modern eyes, drawing on our expeience and knowlege of today, if we were there, even if we thought it was wrong, we would have carried out those orders. It is easy to be critical from afar, when circumstance no longer affects us. Fred B "The statement "I am Black" has radically different meanings when addressed, on the one hand, to a member of the white supremacist group "Aryan Nations" & on the other, to a member of the Bantu Nation of Southern Africa. As with "Black", so with "Gay", "a Man", "English", "British", "Middle-aged" or "an un-affirming childhood". Your interpretation of these vague generalities, verging on abstraction, says more about you than about the person supposedly addressed. As you can see, I am wary of "the truth" of biography & autobiography. Like biogs of nations they should not be taken at face value. If you wish to know something of me ...read my work, bearing in mind that the poem you read is not the poem I have written. The poem you read is your interpretation of the poem I have written." Labi Siffre is the composer & performer of the song (Something Inside) So Strong; the author of 3 poetry books: Nigger, Blood On The Page, & Monument;a stage adaptation of 4 folk tales from around the world: TaleSpin, devised & directed by Jack Holloway at the Wilde Theatre, Bracknell, & a one act play: DeathWrite, staged at the Sherman Theatre, Cardiff, & later, televised by HTV (both directed by Phil Clark). After 9 albums, further hit songs, Watch Me, It Must Be Love, Crying, Laughing, Loving, Lying & My Name Is, 37 years as a writer, a multitude of international performances as a musician &/or poet, the sampling of his musical work by artists such as Jay-Z, Eminem, Wu-Tang Clan & the IRA (this certainly is the age of irony) Labi Siffre has no interest in nostalgia, is tied to the work rather than the applause (though applause is nice) & continues to pursue refractions in the corner of a blind man's eye. His excellent website can be found here. http://www.sampler-poetry.freeuk.com/wizzbo.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 14:49:59 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Re: journalism, articles and opinions NJC Rhetorical question: can journalism be completely objective? Catherine Toronto I've been meaning to answer this for some time. My gut reaction is no. Unless the person in question hasn't formed an opinon on the subject they are covering. I think that's why the reader has to read all views to come to the best (not right or wrong) informed opinon they can. KaseyGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 15:18:38 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: "The Hours", a movie, njc Oh, yeah. I completely forgot to mention that Phillip Glass has found his niche: writing incidental film music. His stuff works perfectly in "The Hours". I've always felt that I get every bit of "juice" from his tunes the first time I hear them and that's exactly what you want in film music. The repetitious nature works in the film because all of the characters are spinning depression round-and-round. Having it is being caught, fretting, about something and the fevered repetition goes beyond being complimentary- it is an integral part. Lama P.S. I knew it was Glass even as the opening credits rolled over the opening sequence: " Doo-da-doo-da Doo-da-doo-da Doo-da-doo-da plink Doo-da-doo-da Doo-da-doo-da Doo-da-doo-da plink-a Doo-da-doo-da Doo-da-doo-da Doo-da-doo-da plink Doo-da-doo-da Doo-da-doo-da Doo-da-doo-da plink-a-dum. " ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 12:59:00 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: "chelsea morning" and "the house for unwed mothers" interesting because i recall reading a bit of a different explanation in 'shadows & light'... something about joni & some friends finding some bits of glass & making mobiles of them & hanging hers in her chelsea apt... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 12:58:58 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Circumcision, njc >>I had my tonsils removed at age 8, I couldn't make that choice then either. So what?<< i had mine removed at around age 5...i recall it vividly...it was quite traumatic for me for many reasons...however it think it was done because i kept getting very sick each winter & it was felt that this was a good solution...at least back then... then when my son was even younger, i was advised for him to get his tonsils, adnoids removed & tubes put in his ears...i at first resisted but finally went with it as the reasons to do it outweighed the reasons not to...(a risk of hearing loss was a big part of my reasoning to have the procedure)... i think there is a big difference in doing some kind of surgery on a child for medical reasons as opposed to just doing something because it is what has always been done (custom)... still, i believe that circumcision its a individual choice & it is not my place to say what is right or wrong for others...still, i would only to hope that parents would make their decision based on weighing the pros & cons (as in any medical procedure)... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 13:02:48 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Circumcision, njc It's pretty hard to take these arguments seriously, as it seems to be fuzzy logic at best- Laurent Olszer wrote: > Regarding the "choice" argument, there are several issues: > * From a medical standpoint, the fact that some men have to have it done as > adults > (my colleague's mate, Colin's and Sarah's friends), and that at this age it is > very painful > could well be a justification to having it done as a baby. Taking this logic a little further, run over babies because they might in the future get hit by a truck. Seriously, if this were a statistically significant problem, maybe you would have a point, but it is not. > Having seen it done several times, I can tell you babies don't cry for more > than a few > minutes and they seem fine 1/2 hour later. Who knows what they go through in that 1/2 hour. > * Are circumcised men traumatized? Can't say whether my craziness comes from > that. > I'm afraid not. First you say you don't know, then decide not... > * So indeed it is not the kid's choice but the parents' or the doctors', based > on religious > or cultural reasons. Yep yep yep > (I'm excluding the strictly medical reasons here) > I had my tonsils removed at age 8, I couldn't make that choice then either. > So what? The tonsils are part of the immune system. Since I'm assuming they were removed for medical reasons, this is completely irrelevant. > If jewish fathers decide to do it to their sons, knowing the consequences, do > you think > they knowingly want to hurt their kids in any way? As Colin pointed out, yes, that IS what they are doing (because it is tradition ie someone in the past told me to) From http://www.nocirc.org/symposia/second/moss.html by Jewish writer Lisa Braver Moss, B.A Let us return to the concerns mentioned above, starting with pain. According to Jewish law, it is forbidden to cause tsa'ar ba'alei chaim, or pain of living things. Even the necessary causing of pain is considered cruel in Judaism. Jewish law even prohibits the pairing up of a small and a large animal for plowing in case the asymmetry causes the littler one discomfort. Clearly, concern over the pain of others has strong Judaic roots. > So if > nobody who is > circumcised is complaining and in fact prefer it, what's the big deal about > the choice? > Why not let a custom carry on when nobody is bothered? Alot of people are bothered by this needless exercise of domination over helpless male children. There are a number of organizations that challenge the popular notion of circumcision. There laregest is called NOCIRC, and has 110 chapters worldwide. http://www.nocirc.org/ A few more facts from the web: Jews have always circumcised as have Moslems, only in the last sixty years have Americans favored circumcisions. Most of the World has never circumcised and does not now. the procedure, is typically done performed a few days after birth on 65 percent of American baby boys--the highest rate in any industrialized country Circumcision is much less frequent in Latin America and Europe. It has decline dramatically in New Zealand and Australia. " Thank God, some of us are finally beginning to realize its barbaric," says Marilyn Milos, a registered nurse, who 20 years ago founded NOCIRC.Milos notes that she began NOCIRC- which has affiliate chapters in most states and several countries- after witnessing a circumcision while training to be a midwife. The mother of four, whose sons had been circumcised prior to that incident says, " when you see the baby shrieking and pushing himself against his restraints, you can't come away thinking its anything but [genital] mutilation." http://www.uvm.edu/~gdavis/nocirc/media.htm (shows a baby with arms and legs strapped to a table awaiting the procedure) RR ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 13:10:36 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Subject: Joni In Fiction now NJC >> and The Hours from ...Peter Gabriel's Mercy Street<< very cool...i can see this ... i am now listening to this song...god, this song goes sooo deep... here are the lyrics: Mercy Street (for anne sexton) looking down on empty streets, all she can see are the dreams all made solid are the dreams all made real all of the buildings, all of those cars were once just a dream in somebody's head she pictures the broken glass, she pictures the steam she pictures a soul with no leak at the seam lets take the boat out wait until darkness let's take the boat out wait until darkness comes nowhere in the corridors of pale green and grey nowhere in the suburbs in the cold light of day there in the midst of it so alive and alone words support like bone dreaming of mercy st. wear your inside out dreaming of mercy in your daddy('s arms again dreaming of mercy st. 'swear they moved that sign dreaming of mercy in your daddy's arms pulling out the papers from the drawers that slide smooth tugging at the darkness, word upon word confessing all the secret things in the warm velvet box to the priest-he's the doctor he can handle the shocks dreaming of the tenderness-the tremble in the hips of kissing Mary's lips dreaming of mercy st. wear your insides out dreaming of mercy in your daddy's arms again dreaming of mercy st. 'swear they moved that sign looking for mercy in your daddy's arms mercy, mercy, looking for mercy mercy, mercy, looking for mercy Anne, with her father is out in the boat riding the water riding the waves on the sea ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 21:18:03 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: journalism, articles and opinions NJC kasey simpson wrote: >Rhetorical question: can journalism be completely >objective? > >Catherine >Toronto > >I've been meaning to answer this for some time. My gut reaction >is no. > I agree. > Unless the person in question hasn't formed an opinon on >the subject they are covering. > even then, no. we ALL come to any subject, subjectively because w ebase everything on our own experience, our meaning structures. @objectiveity' is not possible. We cannot step outside of ourselves nor the meaning structures we have created. This is the why people suffer 'breakdowns'-becausw hatever has hapopened is outside of their 'world', they cannot assimilate it. Recovery means to build a different set of meaning structures. You can see then that changing one's meanign structures is not going to jumped at as a wanted thing to do! > I think that's why the reader has >to read all views to come to the best (not right or wrong) informed >opinon they can. >KaseyGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 21:28:02 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Circumcision, njc Randy Remote wrote: > when you see the baby shrieking and >pushing himself against his restraints, you can't come >away thinking its anything but [genital] mutilation." > > One of the worst things I ever saw, something that made me furious because the blatent abuse being shown was totally ignored, was a prgram which showed a religous ceremony where a very young boy, dreassed up in a suit, was taken in front of a corwd of relatives and friends, has his penis taken out, and the religious leader, circumcised him. i was appalled. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I was atonished that so many people could harden themselves to the point of not seeing the harm they were doing to that poor boy. And no they were not some lost ancient tribe in deepest Papua either. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 13:38:33 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: welfare, grants and housing (njc) hi kakki, >>I just meant it generally, because it seems to be a general assumption among a lot of people. It seems like some think because Republicans want tax reform that means they want to do away with social services right away.<<< yes, that is certainly the usual assumption...which is why i thought it only fair (for me especially) to point at the democratic presidency for this one... >>I totally agree that cutting welfare checks to people in need is just atrocious. Solves nothing and creates more problems and hardships.<< there is one awful example of one woman's plight under the current welfare system in the movie 'bowling for columbine'...a truly tragic story... >>Why is it that we are brilliant enough to go to the moon and Mars and daily are making new discoveries to benefit humankind but we can't figure out how to put together a better system for those in need?<< i agree, we spend so much money on exploring other worlds which would be fine if this world we live on were humming along nicely..but its not...this may not be what you actually meant, but for me it is very hard to reconcile the kind of money it takes to keep the space program going when the money imo, could be better used in other ways...maybe finding cures for uncurable diseases as just one example, developing alternative energy sources to oil & nuclear, as another...out of respect for those who recently died in the columbia tragedy & their loved ones, i hestitate to bring this up...but given our current world situation i think the expense & rationalization for this space program needs reconsidering... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 16:45:23 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Joni in Print In a message dated 2/8/2003 1:25:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, Freddyb4@aol.com writes: > Books about or by Joni - are any outstanding "Must Haves ??" I don't know about "must haves", Fred, but as a Joni fan I love to devour all I can read about her. Shadows & Light by Karen O'Brien is a good and informative read. Stacey Luftig's "Joni Mitchell Companion" is also a nice synopsis of various writings, ordered to give you a good overview of her career. And don't forget the JMDL's own library with hundreds of articles! Joni hasn't written her autobigraphy yet - at least; it hasn't been published. > Is there a book of her lyrics, with the stories behind her songs ?? There is a book that contains her lyrics...of course, they're available on the JMDL as well. As for the STORIES behind the songs...well, Joni's left it to US to figure that one out! :~) > Are there books about her paintings?? There was a book published to coincide with her exhibit at The Mendel Gallery in Saskatoon called "Voices - The Work of Joni Mitchell". And she had 40 or so pages devoted to her in the book "Starart" featuring some of her art and a good bit of print as well. Bob NP:Joni, "Both Sides Now" White Swan 9/67 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 16:45:54 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: JC Bobs not guilty - Fred said --- Freddyb4@aol.com wrote: > > Books about or by Joni - are any outstanding "Must > Haves ??" > Is there a book of her lyrics, with the stories > behind her songs ?? > Are there books about her paintings?? You can get a book of her art at the Mendel Gallery of Saskatoon - here's their website: http://www.mendel.ca/shop/Cataloguedesc/#voices:%20Joni%20Mitchell%20exhibition%20catalogue ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 13:47:15 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: njc circumscision another view Vince, I never knew that circumcision was so central to the roots of Chrisianity. Kind of makes sense, though, partriarchy that it is. The problem with quoting scripture is that it is only convincing to those that accept the Bible as absolute truth, which I do not. To me it is a historical hodgepodge of different things that ended up in the same book at a time when literacy was so rare that it was considered magical. So we will never agree there, and I could be wrong. There have been whole books written about the contradictions in the Bible, and it seems that whatever viewpoint a person may have, there is something in there to support (or refute) it. I realize I do not have a millionth of the knowledge of the Bible that you do, Vince. In any case, here is the passage from Genesis 17 that you are referring to And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk in my ways and be blameless. I will establish my covenant between me and you and I will make you exceedingly numerous. And you shall no longer be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham and I make you the father of a multitude of nations. I will make you exceedingly fertile and make nations of you and kings shall come forth from you. I will maintain my covenant between me and you to be God to you and your offspring to come. I assign the land you sojourn in to you and to your offspring to come, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting holding; I will be their God. God further said to Abraham: As for you, you and your offspring to come throughout the ages shall keep my covenant. Such shall be the covenant between me and you and your offspring to follow, which you shall keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. You shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin and that shall be the sign of the covenant between me and you. And throughout the generations every male among you shall be circumcised at the age of eight days. Thus shall my covenant be marked in your flesh as an everlasting pact. And if any male who is uncircumcised fails to circumcise the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his kin. He has broken my covenant. Vince said: > and as far making decisions for babies? > > That argument sways me little. My parents > - they made decisions as to how to feed me, breast or bottle and > whatever impact that has on child development, whether to read to me, > whether to comfort me when I cried in my crib or whether to let me cry > it out, whether to get my my shots which certainly made me cry in pain! > I can remember wailing when I got my smallpox and polio vaccinations) - Some decisions are made based on medical or logical or practical reasons. Some are based on religious beliefs that the child may or may not retain. I don't see it as the same thing. I don't think rituals or beliefs should be foisted on children. Too much like brainwashing, which I received every Sunday as a child. > and my sons are circumcised and my grandsons are circumcised and God > bless the women who authorize the circumcision of the males of my descent! > > Because they bear on their most important body part the mark of the > covenant of God, the God loves us, makes you wonder how God feels about those unfortunate enough to have been born where circumcision is not done. Are they permanantly screwed? I still have the mark of circumcision. (Glad I have it as > explained before, and it also looks better to me, and left me looking > like all of the other boys in the school shower, a big, big plus at the > time and even now at the gym). This is perhaps the only argument in favor that I have heard that makes some sense. In essence "because everyone else is doing it". A poor reason to do something, although peer pressure and acceptance are important to people, especially the young. RR ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 16:53:17 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: journalism, articles and opinions NJC --- kasey simpson wrote: > Rhetorical question: can journalism be completely > objective? > > Catherine > Toronto > > I've been meaning to answer this for some time. My > gut reaction > is no. Unless the person in question hasn't formed > an opinon on > the subject they are covering. I think that's why > the reader has > to read all views to come to the best (not right or > wrong) informed > opinon they can. Good. That's the same conclusion I came to. So we must be right (two out of two people say so - that's 100%) ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 16:54:40 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Ready to fling those frisbees! Bob Muller writes: << Bob "Kreskin" Murphy - second place >> Yippee! It's nice you think I am like the all-knowing Kreskin, Bob, but I am actually not at all sure what I get for second place. Is it the latest covers volume, or that fire-engine-red Camaro over where Carol is standing? I'd be happy with the latest covers disc because there's nothing I love more than a good covers frisbee match! Thanks, Bob! I am sorry I have caused you such pain and misery over the years. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 16:58:12 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Ready to fling those frisbees! In a message dated 2/8/2003 4:54:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, Murphycopy writes: > Is it the latest covers volume, or that fire-engine-red Camaro over where > Carol is standing? Well, it IS a copy of Covers #37, but you can trade it for what Jay's bringing down the aisle! :o) Bob NP: Joni, "Morning Morgantown" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 11:01:18 +1300 From: "hell" Subject: Re: welfare, grants and housing (njc) Kate wrote: > i agree, we spend so much money on exploring other worlds which would be > fine if this world we live on were humming along nicely..but its not...this > may not be what you actually meant, but for me it is very hard to reconcile > the kind of money it takes to keep the space program going when the money > imo, could be better used in other ways...maybe finding cures for uncurable > diseases as just one example, developing alternative energy sources to oil & > nuclear, as another...out of respect for those who recently died in the > columbia tragedy & their loved ones, i hestitate to bring this up...but > given our current world situation i think the expense & rationalization for > this space program needs reconsidering... I agree with this as well, but for the same reasons I was hesitant to bring it up. I was reading a news article which said the International Space Station project has a cost of US$95 billion to date. Imagine how much good that money could have done in medical procedures. When you think how many people have been on waiting-lists for surgery, some for years, it seems just a little disproportionate. We have also not explored every area of this planet. There are areas of ocean still unexplored, and yet we spend billions trying to find life on Mars. To what end? I don't want to be disrespectful of those who died in the Columbia tragedy either, but in recent weeks seven people were killed in an avalanche in Canada, and 46 people were killed in a train crash in Zimbabwe. Both those incidents were only given a short paragraph in our national paper, while the Columbia disaster had pages and pages of articles, including full biographies of each astronaut. Were their lives more important than the others that died? That seems a little harsh even as I write it, but I'm sure the relatives of those who died in Canada are grieving just as much as the relatives of the space shuttle. I understand the need to "further science" and I have a science background myself, but it seems our priorities have gotten a little screwed up somewhere along the line. Hell ___________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman Hell's Home Page - NEW & IMPROVED! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 17:00:17 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: njc circumscision another view According to Randy, God said: << And if any male who is uncircumcised fails to circumcise the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his kin. >> So guys get 'cut' either way! --Bob, thinking that being cut off from *some* kin isn't always such a bad idea . . . ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 17:00:59 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Circumcision, njc --- Kate Bennett wrote: > still, i believe that circumcision its a individual > choice & it is not my > place to say what is right or wrong for > others...still, i would only to hope > that parents would make their decision based on > weighing the pros & cons (as > in any medical procedure)... All this talk about penises now... For a while docs were telling parents that circumcision was the way to go with baby boys so people were doing it. I think it has gone in and out of style, as it were, as far as whether it's medically necessary or preventive medicine or whatever. Our provincial health insurance covered it. Then maybe ten years ago or so, the docs did an about-face and decided it wasn't medically necessary at all, and our health insurance delisted it. I'm not a guy, so what do I know about this stuff? My son was circumcised because his father thought he should be, and because we understood it was better to do it and, if you're going to do it, the younger the better (like when you're a newborn?) After it was done, my little guy was crying and crying and I went into the nursery and I started crying too because he sounded so sad and helpless and he had such a beautiful little face and you didn't want to see it looking so sad. I said, "Poor little thing" and this nurse muttered at me as she walked by, "Well, you didn't have to do it, did you?" Ironically, my son was born in a Jewish hospital. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 14:00:32 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: njc circumscision another view >>Have you ever seen a dog hump some one's leg?<< i think this is more often about dominance (the whole alpha thing) than about sex...my female has occasionally done this to people that she knows but who do not live here in our home with us (our kids) & it seems as if she is trying to determine whether she can be the boss of them or not! ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #100 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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