From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #99 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, February 8 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 099 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: was PJ Harvey - now Beth Orton njc ["Tamsin Lucas" ] Re: Joni's gay fans and other things that have to do with the JMDL NJC [] Circumcision, njc ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: big yellow taxi I'm gonna call this njc [Gerald Notaro ] California ladies of the canyon...John Eddie tonight in West Hollywood NJC [RoseMJoy@aol.] Joni In Fiction / a little JC [gerime ] Re: Circumcision, njc [colin ] So much for the Aussie Bootlegger... [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Seeking "Love Is Like a Big Brass Band" [music@allison.net] Re: Queen of England and potential cuckoo in the nest NJC ["Kate Bennett"] Re: welfare, grants and housing (njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: For Colin and other knitters - NJC [colin ] Re: Portrait In Red And Green [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] NJC Two great articles on war [sl.m@shaw.ca] RE: Joni In Fiction / now njc - also mrs. dalloway content ["patrick lead] Re: welfare, grants and housing (njc) ["kakki" ] Re: NJC Two great articles on war ["kakki" ] njc circumscision another view [vince ] Re: njc circumscision another view ["kasey simpson" ] Re: NJC Two great articles on war ["kasey simpson" ] Re: NJC Two great articles on war [sl.m@shaw.ca] Today's Library Links: February 8 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 08:57:32 +0000 From: "Tamsin Lucas" Subject: Re: was PJ Harvey - now Beth Orton njc Hi Mike, I absolutely love Beth. I know her voice isn't perfect but I love the way it sounds almost slightly drunk and she has such an amazing depth of feeling when she sings that reminds me of Joni. I love the Ryan Adams song on Daybreaker - "This Ones gonna Bruise" - though odd song to write for your girlfriend wouldn't you say?! Her own stuff is great too - hardly cheery but that's what I like :) I've seen her a couple of times now and will be seeing her at the Royal Albert Hall at the end of March - she always tells incredibly bad jokes while on stage. When I saw her in January she was rocking - much more so than the last time and sounded almost Janis-esque at times. Woke up to "Stolen Car" just this morning actually - *it's little things like this that matter to me* and it's set me up for the day... tamsin >However, I'd like to put a word in for >Beth Orton. She's not yet a great singer; she doesn't yet have a great >stage >presence, she's not yet very relaxed and comfortable on stage and is not >the > _________________________________________________________________ Use MSN Messenger to send music and pics to your friends http://messenger.msn.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 03:57:24 -0500 (EST) From: Thomas Ross Subject: fagan/mcpartland oops, missed it, when? fagan's jazz roots are as robust as his funk taste. Love to hear him playing straightahead or not . . . Yes, Fred! usually/always! tasty and soulful. Tom Ross Mijazi Music (518) 372-2611 http://www.tom.rossweb.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 06:54:35 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Joni's gay fans and other things that have to do with the JMDL NJC --- Rusty10113@aol.com wrote: > HI.just a quick thoguht, when I posted earlier about > the gay connection to > Joni, much of what I felt was 100 percent Joni > related content, albeit with a > gay subtext, I would be very confused to have put a > NJC label on it... it was > Joni content, about her music and how it's altered > my life, etc., isn't that > what most of these posts are about> ... I've never been very clear on where the line is drawn between jc and njc. I usually just put njc on everything (if I remember), even if Joni comes into it somewhere, unless it's something like, "I saw Joni last week, and, boy, did she look like crap!" or, "I was in the supermarket the other day, and I heard a Joni Mitchell song playing - imagine that!" and that's the entire post. I suppose it would be OK to post entirely about your interpretation of or feelings about one song. I'm not sure how they take it if you post your feelings about a song and then relate it to your personal experience and veer off in a different direction so, in those cases (which for me is most of the time), I just err on the njc part. It's not like the njc-ers are going to know anyway. Just to add to the confusion there's also sjc (some Joni content) and vljc (very little Joni content) that some people use, but I don't know if those go to everyone or just the non-Joni-onlies. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 13:33:19 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Circumcision, njc First let me reiterate that the excision of girls has nothing to do with circumcision and I don't like the same term being used when it shouldn't. My colleague's mate was circumcised at 16 because he had a medical condition where he couldn't retract it. He's now in his 50's. He says that he lost a little sensitivity. As far as the duration of the act, I believe it depends more on the individual rather than whether he's circumcised or not. Of course circumcision could be a cure to over-sensitivity in some cases, but in general I don't believe it's the main factor, based on my limited research. Regarding the "choice" argument, there are several issues: * From a medical standpoint, the fact that some men have to have it done as adults (my colleague's mate, Colin's and Sarah's friends), and that at this age it is very painful could well be a justification to having it done as a baby. Having seen it done several times, I can tell you babies don't cry for more than a few minutes and they seem fine 1/2 hour later. * Are circumcised men traumatized? Can't say whether my craziness comes from that. I'm afraid not. * So indeed it is not the kid's choice but the parents' or the doctors', based on religious or cultural reasons. (I'm excluding the strictly medical reasons here) I had my tonsils removed at age 8, I couldn't make that choice then either. So what? If jewish fathers decide to do it to their sons, knowing the consequences, do you think they knowingly want to hurt their kids in any way? To me this is very different from excising girls for cultural reasons with lasting consequences (if they survive the operation). I'm pretty sure that excised women who dare speak out complain. So the bottom line is: is anybody complaining with the results themselves (not about having choice which is a more intellectual question)? So far the only comment was Leonard's who said he was quite happy. So if nobody who is circumcised is complaining and in fact prefer it, what's the big deal about the choice? Why not let a custom carry on when nobody is bothered? Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 08:11:07 -0500 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: big yellow taxi I'm gonna call this njc And unfortunately Bob doesn't receive messages like this as he is now JC only. Jerry Catherine McKay wrote: > --- Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: > Freddyb4@aol.com > writes: > >><< Does anyone collect recordings of Joni songs sung >>by other Artists. >> >> >>Paging Mr. Muller . . . Mr. Bob Muller . . . > > > I wonder how much Muller paid Fred (the shill) to ask > that question? Not that Muller gets anything out of it > except for the adoration of his fans. > > ===== > Catherine > Toronto > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 08:36:47 EST From: Rusty10113@aol.com Subject: Re: "chelsea morning" and "the house for unwed mothers" Hi Mia, such a cool story, thanks for sharing it. I live in NYC and ofted wondered what the roots of Chelsea Morning really were...what a fascinating story.... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 09:36:53 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni & "Midnight Cowboy" In a message dated 2/6/2003 5:23:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, guitarzan@direcpc.com writes: > Then I clicked on Joni's name and it shows a list > of her songs, including a bunch I didn't regognize, like "Daisy > Summer Piper" "Day After Day" > "Here Today and Gone Tomorrow" "I Won't Cry" > "Like Veils Said Laureen" "Love is Like a Big Brass Band" [I > hope not] "Moon In The Mirror" "Piano Song" "Play Little David" > "Poor Sad Baby" "Portrait In Red and Green" "Straw Flower Me" > "Two Houses" "The Way It Is" "What's the Story, Mr. Blue" Very cool, & thanks for the link, Randy! A lot of these are titles I'm familiar with & that a lot of us have..."Day After Day" was her first recording - we do have a copy of that...Play Little David, The Way It Is (the song she wrote for & performed on the CBC show of the same name), Mr. Blue are also songs that we have live versions of. Some of those others are listed on Jm.com, and others are not, so I'll say you've made a good find! "Two Houses" was what she called her early medley of "Blue Boy" & "Rainy Night House", she introduces them as such on the '69 PBS show. For those who may not have examined this fascinating segment of Joni's earliest work: http://www.jonimitchell.com/Unreleased.html > > ps > did you know Sammy Hagar wrote a song called "Both Sides Now"? > Ugh! Yes, I'm aware of Mr. Hagar's song...thank God it's NOT a cover, otherwise I'd have to listen to it. :~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 09:43:11 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: "chelsea morning" and "the house for unwed mothers" In a message dated 2/7/2003 1:25:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, hvnphun16@hotmail.com writes: > I don't know if it has ever been > mentioned here before, but I decided to transcribe it anyway for those who > have never heard it: > No, it really hasn't been that I recall, Mia....thanks so much for the transcription, especially in the context of the discussion we had about Joni as an unwed mother. That's why I love to listen to these recordings as they can shed so much light into Joni's history & career. And I agree with your supposition that Kelly plays heavily into the imagery of Chelsea Morning, I had posted a while back about Joni's use of the word "baby" and how it can be applied to her loss. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 09:46:26 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Re: NDE NJC Colin, Years ago I watched a show called 'Beyond and Back' that did a study on death, and NDE. I was bowled over by it. I started doing a lot of reading on it, and that lead to my interest in psychics. Have you seen the movie 'Dragonfly' with Kevin Costner? That was interesting, I liked the concept of it. If you get the chance see it. Kasey I ahve just finished watching a doc on BBC2 about NDE's. There were two cases where it has been proved that the people were DEAD, no brain function, when they had their experience. One was a woman who had a major anurism in her brain stem and was given up for dead. However, she went to a nuerosurgeon in phoenix who thought he could help her and stop the bleed. During the surgery, she was not just deadin the sense her haert was stopped, but alsos all brain function. She later reproted the going into the light etc but, and this is the importnat bit, she reported what happened in the op room! There is NO WAY she could have seen or heard anything because she was dead, brain and all yet she did. She heard the thing the man used to open her head. She said it was alike a toothbrush. She could not have known that. She also heard one of the drs saying they could not get into the vein in her leg-too small. Now she did not know they would open her leg veins also and certainly couldn;t have heard this anyway. Another case involved a young woman who was blind. Really blind, her eyes did not function. She was dead form a car accident. She came bnack. She was able to describe things she SAW' yet she had never seen before and cetainly could not see at the time, not juts because her eys ewere useless but because her brain was not functioning. Of course we had Dr Susan Blackmore on, she is always dragged out for these programs, to tell us that it is crap, that theses experiences are merely the brains last ditch attpmt to comofrot us, and that all we are doing is forming ideas and not turth.unlike her theory of course, that isn't an idea, is it now? These two cases are proof beyond doubt that these experirnces happened whilst their was no brain function at all so the rbain was not creating anything, nothing, no last ditch attepmt at anyhting, it was completely stopped. There are two drs here and one in holland that are studying this right now, using cardiac arrest survivors. They felel that the'last ditch attempt to comfort' idea is not correct. bw colinGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 09:47:37 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: California ladies of the canyon...John Eddie tonight in West Hollywood NJC Who, Where the feck is John Eddie? He's a NJ Treasure and ladies he is soooo cute ;~) check him out if ya can www.johneddie.com THIS FRIDAY, FEB. 7th - HOUSE OF BLUES John Eddie with Ramsay Midwood, David Ryan Harris, and Michael McDermott at the House of Blues Sunset Strip. Location: 8430 Sunset Blvd. West Hollywood, CA 90069 Phone: 323.848.5100 Tickets Now On Sale Available thru HOB and Ticketmaster, Tickets Price: $10.00 Doors : 7:00pm Showtime : 8:00pm Age : 21+ Better ask questions before you shoot Deceit and betrayal's bitter fruit It's hard to swallow, come time to pay. That taste on your tongue don't easily slip away Let Kingdom come. I'm gonna find my way Through this lonesome day ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 15:34:02 +0000 From: gerime Subject: Joni In Fiction / a little JC - -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Joni In Fiction Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 05:45:24 +0000 From: gerime Reply-To: gerime@blueyonder.co.uk Out of lurkdom (briefly) Article by writer Michael Cunningham ("The Hours") on the Philip Glass site: Extract: < Each novel I've written has developed a soundtrack of sorts; a body of music that subtly but palpably helped shape the book in question. I don't imagine most people who've read any of my books could readily see their connections to particular pieces of music, but I have long been aware that A Home at the End of the World evolved, in part, from Laurie Anderson's Big Science, Joni Mitchell's Blue, and the Mozart's Requiem; that Flesh and Blood derived from the operas of Verdi, Neil Young's After the Gold Rush, several albums by The Smiths, and Jeff Buckley's cover of Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah; and The Hours from Schubert (particularly Death and the Maiden), Brian Eno's Music for Airports, Peter Gabriel's Mercy Street, and, for reasons I can't begin to explain, Radiohead's OK Computer. The one constant since I started trying to write novels, however -my only ongoing act of listening fidelity- has been the work of Philip Glass. > Read the whole article here: http://www.philipglass.com/hours.html Gerry N.P. Antony and the Johnsons - "I Fell In Love With A Dead Boy" All you lovers of great and special music check them out here: http://www.antonyandthejohnsons.com/samples/samples.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 16:19:36 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Circumcision, njc Laurent Olszer wrote: > >Regarding the "choice" argument, there are several issues: >* From a medical standpoint, the fact that some men have to have it done as >adults >(my colleague's mate, Colin's and Sarah's friends), > my partner was done as baby not as an adult. > and that at this age it is >very painful >could well be a justification to having it done as a baby. > cut it off to save a possible future problem? That is no justification for peforming this act unless it is a medical NECESSITY. >Having seen it done several times, I can tell you babies don't cry for more >than a few >minutes and they seem fine 1/2 hour later. > to hurt a baby for any length of time should be avoided at all costs. They are real feeling ebings. we have no right to hurt them to satisfy our own selves. > >* Are circumcised men traumatized? > some are yes. Some men are very unhappy that they were mutilated oin this way. > . > >* So indeed it is not the kid's choice but the parents' or the doctors', based >on religious >or cultural reasons. (I'm excluding the strictly medical reasons here) >I had my tonsils removed at age 8, I couldn't make that choice then either. >So what? > having tonsils removed, likean appendix, is a meadical reason. it is not because someone 'felt like it'. >If jewish fathers decide to do it to their sons, knowing the consequences, do >you think >they knowingly want to hurt their kids in any way? > If they know the consequences, they are knowingly hurting their children. > > > >So the bottom line is: is anybody complaining with the results themselves (not >about having >choice which is a more intellectual question)? >So far the only comment was Leonard's who said he was quite happy. So if >nobody who is >circumcised is complaining > but many are and have always complained. > and in fact prefer it, what's the big deal about >the choice? > they couldn;t possibly know what they prefer because that choice was taken away from them. The big deal about choice? well, imagine having no choice. that should answer your question. >Why not let a custom carry on when nobody is bothered? > Many people are bothered by it. The point of this, is that it is a violation of a human beings body and trust. We do not have the right to assault babies/children in this manner regardless of how we rationalise it to ourselves. I understand people think differently about this. For me, it is purely a matter of respecting chidlren and their bodies and not harming them them. Choice is not an intellectual argument, it is has very real meaning to the physical and emotional lives of us all. No one, certainly not me, is suggesting that those parents who allowed this be done are bad or wicked or whatever. Culturela belifs etc are not easy things to leave behind. However, it doesn't change my opinon about circumscision. > >Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 11:19:54 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: So much for the Aussie Bootlegger... For Andrea & anyone else who's interested. As of this morning E-bay had closed down the Joni cd's this guy was selling. They usually do a pretty good job of shutting those down quickly. And though he was a prime suspect, John "Lowdown" Low claims he is NOT involved! :~) Bob NP: Joni, "Mr. Blue", 3/17/67 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 08:24:24 -0800 (PST) From: music@allison.net Subject: Seeking "Love Is Like a Big Brass Band" Hi there! I am trying to find a copy of the unreleased Joni song, "Love Is Like Big Brass Band." Does anyone know how I could come by some sort of a recording on this song? A websearch only revealed a few sites that have the lyrics posted, but there seems to be no official way to get a hold of this song. Thanks so much!!!! Allison http://allisontartalia.com http://mp3.com/allisontartalia http://adoptaband.com/showcase/allisontartalia Make Haste! Records booking/info:(212)769-6812 BUY THE CD!: http://cdbaby.com/cd/allisontartalia ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 10:08:36 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Queen of England and potential cuckoo in the nest NJC why speaking of the queen, pbs broadcast the 'queen's concert' last night...it was outside what i assumed to be buckingham palace...phil collins, eric clapton, rod stewart, tom jones, paul mccartney with symphony orchestra behind...the usual suspects...i only saw parts & thought it kind of boring actually... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 10:10:13 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: welfare, grants and housing (njc) >Don't assume Republicans want to do away with welfare. < actually i don't think that was ever mentioned or assumed in this conversation & to be fair i should say that it seems to me it was both parties were responsible for the recent welfare reform plan although i can't recall who supported or did not support the plan but it was created & implemented under clinton's presidency & i've never forgiven him for that one... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 13:26:01 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: virginia woolf on cloud illusions - njc From Mrs. Dalloway, another genius' take on clouds: "A puff of wind (in spite of the heat, there was quite a wind) blew a thin black veil over the sun and over the Strand. The faces faded; the omnibuses suddenly lost their glow. For although the clouds were of mountainous white so that one could fancy hacking hard chips off with a hatchet, with broad golden slopes, lawns of celestial pleasure gardens, on their flanks, and had all the appearance of settled habitations assembled for the conference of gods above the world, there was a perpetual movement among them. Signs were interchanged, when, as if to fulfil some scheme arranged already, now a summit dwindled, now a whole block of pyramidal size which had kept its station inalterably advanced into the midst or gravely led the procession to fresh anchorage. Fixed though they seemed at their posts, at rest in perfect unanimity, nothing could be fresher, freer, more sensitive superficially than the snow-white or gold-kindled surface; to change, to go, to dismantle the solemn assemblage was immediately possible; and in spite of the grave fixity, the accumulated robustness and solidity, now they struck light to earth, now darkness." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 13:31:39 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Queen of England and potential cuckoo in the nest NJC Kate writes: << i only saw parts & thought it kind of boring actually... >> Me, too! I was also surprised at how much American music was featured, from the long salute to Motown to Brian Wilson's performance. Since it was the 50th anniversary of QE II's ascension to the throne, I would have thought that there'd be more emphasis on Britain's not-too-shabby contribution to music over the last 50 years. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 10:42:42 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Queen of England and potential cuckoo in the nest NJC >>Since it was the 50th anniversary of QE II's ascension to the throne, I would have thought that there'd be more emphasis on Britain's not-too-shabby contribution to music over the last 50 years.<< so that is what it was about...very strange then, to have so much emphasis on american music...but thanks for mentioning brian wilson...i forgot about him & actually liked his segment the best as his songs are so darned georgous ... it is sweet to see him performing again, although a bit sad too... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 14:31:34 -0500 From: "Heather" Subject: For Colin and other knitters - NJC A policeman, making his daily highway patrol, witnesses a car swerving all over the road. He pulls up along side the vehicle and is exasperated to see a little old lady behind the wheel knitting! Frustrated, he puts on the siren only to be ignored by the woman who is engrossed with her knitting. Desperate, he yells out the window, "Pull over!" The woman yells back, "No ... cardigan." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 21:26:58 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: For Colin and other knitters - NJC Luckily, I have never been caught with my machine on my lap whilst driving...... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 21:28:47 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: virginia woolf on cloud illusions - njc Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: >>From Mrs. Dalloway, another genius' take on clouds: > > > My close friend judy, whom I have known since 79 is the great niece of Viriginia Woolf. She is late 50's now. You like her, Bob. Very posh. Sounds wonderful when she lets rip with 4 letter words..... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 19:43:24 -0800 From: Gary Zack Subject: Portrait In Red And Green "Portrait In Red And Green" was also mentioned in the below post. It's pretty obvious, but I also found this song in the copyright books when I lived in New York. Always guessed it was the original title of the song, "Marcie." Best Regards, Gary Zack >In a message dated 2/6/2003 5:23:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, >guitarzan@direcpc.com writes: > >>Then I clicked on Joni's name and it shows a list >>of her songs, including a bunch I didn't regognize, like "Daisy >>Summer Piper" "Day After Day" >>"Here Today and Gone Tomorrow" "I Won't Cry" >>"Like Veils Said Laureen" "Love is Like a Big Brass Band" [I >>hope not] "Moon In The Mirror" "Piano Song" "Play Little David" >>"Poor Sad Baby" "Portrait In Red and Green" "Straw Flower Me" >>"Two Houses" "The Way It Is" "What's the Story, Mr. Blue" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 19:54:52 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Portrait In Red And Green In a message dated 2/7/2003 7:42:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, nyro_in_detroit@sbcglobal.net writes: > Always guessed it was the original title of the > song, "Marcie." > You're right, Gary...thanks for the catch as I missed that one. She intro's it as such in the same PBS special, I do believe. Bob NP: Jack Johnson, "Bad News" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 19:28:52 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: NJC Two great articles on war Two more of my opinon pieces, both excellent articles from Canada's national newspapers: Rick Salutin in the Globe and Mail arguing against the war at http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/TGAM/20030207/COSALUT/Headlines/headdex/headdexColumnists_temp/6/6/17/ and Mark Steyn in the National Post arguing in favour at http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?id=18C181A0-5FE2-47E7-B967-D299A9466DF9 Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 20:51:42 -0500 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: Joni In Fiction / now njc - also mrs. dalloway content god i love michael cunningham... i've been reading him from the very beginning, and 'a home at the end of the world' is very high in my list of novels, one i've given to several people. 'flesh and blood' is also great, though a little bit similar to a large class of 'family epic' type novels. i was so happy that 'the hours' won the pulitzer, but i held off reading it for the longest time because i really wanted to read 'mrs. dalloway' first. but i just can't get through it. i can't relax into the stream of shifting consciousness flow of it. i used to be better at that, but i just haven't been able to with 'dalloway'. so finally i said fuck it and read 'the hours' and just loved it. so go figure. haven't seen the movie yet, but totally looking forward to it. sunday new york times recently had a wonderful article by cunningham about the experience of seeing his ostensibly completely uncinematic novel turned into a very satisfying for him movie. and every one of michael cunningham's musical choices looms large in my life, except that i've listened to very little verdi. i can totally imagine that listening to philip glass is the perfect background to writing. i can't imagine writing in silence, but you really want music that can recede to the background without being insipid, and glass' music mostly achieves that. interestingly enough, i was reading a profile of harvey weinstein, the very hands-on producer who runs miramax, and has invited glass into many filmscores. the profile was being written during the late stages of making 'the hours' and weinstein was having terrible problems with phil's music. "no, you're overemphasizing dramatic points, being sappy" etc. etc. don't know how the dispute played out, but have heard very good things about the score. anyone have comments? patrick np - dizzy gillespie - manteca >Article by writer Michael Cunningham ("The Hours") on the Philip Glass >site: > >Extract: > > < Each novel I've written has developed a soundtrack of sorts; a >body of music that subtly but palpably helped shape the book in >question. I don't imagine most people who've read any of my books could >readily see their connections to particular pieces of music, but I have >long been aware that A Home at the End of the World evolved, in part, >from Laurie Anderson's Big Science, Joni Mitchell's Blue, and the >Mozart's Requiem; that Flesh and Blood derived from the operas of Verdi, >Neil Young's After the Gold Rush, several albums by The Smiths, and Jeff >Buckley's cover of Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah; and The Hours from >Schubert (particularly Death and the Maiden), Brian Eno's Music for >Airports, Peter Gabriel's Mercy Street, and, for reasons I can't begin >to explain, Radiohead's OK Computer. The one constant since I started >trying to write novels, however -my only ongoing act of listening >fidelity- has been the work of Philip Glass. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 18:00:21 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: welfare, grants and housing (njc) Hi Kate, I just meant it generally, because it seems to be a general assumption among a lot of people. It seems like some think because Republicans want tax reform that means they want to do away with social services right away. I for one think there should be reform the other way - keep the social services system on its toes so that it is better coordinated and bringing the very best support to those in need. I totally agree that cutting welfare checks to people in need is just atrocious. Solves nothing and creates more problems and hardships. Why is it that we are brilliant enough to go to the moon and Mars and daily are making new discoveries to benefit humankind but we can't figure out how to put together a better system for those in need? The bureaucracy needs to be streamlined and simplified so that more of the available resources could go directly to those who need it. I've often wondered if they don't deliberately make it difficult for people (tons of forms, waiting periods, etc.) to discourage them from asking for any help at all. That is wrong. It does seem like in some areas we are doing better than in the past. But there is still lots of room for improvement. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 18:02:25 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: NJC Two great articles on war Sarah wrote: > Two more of my opinon pieces, both excellent articles from Canada's national newspapers: Heehee, well Sarah, many of the articles you reference are what I read elsewhere every day. They are usually well-written IMO. By the way, many here in the U.S. consider Mark Steyn a Canadian treausre and better than 101% of his counterparts in the U.S. ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 23:03:34 -0500 From: vince Subject: njc circumscision another view I have read these debates for years and never weighed in - I find them interesting in that much of the Christian Covenant (New Testament for Christo-centric people) pre Gospel epistles revolve around the debate of circumcision vs non circumcision for non-Jewish people becoming a part of the developing faith community - and then the Scriptural debate resumes in the contemporary/post Gospel period in which Acts is written which would be probably after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE); the debate is covered again and is central to the development of the Church as a separate institution and no longer a movement within Judaism -- and all I speak of here is male circumcision, not female, which I think is brutality to subjugate women, I don't think it is the same for males - while circumcision is cultural in many parts of the world, with some societies using it as a rite of passage from childhood to manhood (ouch! remember that scene in Roots) and have have cultural roots prior to the Abrahamic covenant, it is understood as cultic in the pre and contemporary Abrahamic period and adopted by Abraham and the family of faith that stems from that covenant as a sign of the covenant between God and humanity. It is thus a sign of deepest, permanent, commitment between God and God's people, not some cultural vestige but in fact essential to the covenant. At the beginning of life, the sign of the covenant is performed on the body of the male infant which places that child in God's community forever. It is a permanent, irreversible mark - no one can hide from God, or pretend that one is not a child of God for the sign is there, and God's sign of presence is always with the individual (male). It is a bit of a sacrificial sign in that men get squeamish about it but if it were easy, what sort of sign would it be - but yet it is not difficult and leaves no one with any limitations in life - more like a tattoo that is always there and does not hinder performance of pleasure. And speaking of performance and pleasure - the sign of the covenant being on the penis means that every act of sex (excluding lesbians for this argument, sorry) will involve the presence of the sign of God's covenant with God's people. Consider: the sign of covenant is on the organ of pleasure (and thus why better than a tattoo). When pleasure is felt, when sexual pleasure is enjoyed, God is there, and that tells us that sex is a gift, a joy, a blessing that God gives to us for God is on the male organ of pleasure. Blessed are you O Sovereign of the Universe who did not make us to procreate like asexual flowers or with no emotions like dogs but have given us an organ of pleasure in that we might, ah, enjoy this with extreme pleasure! And when a sperm is released to meet an egg, the sign of God's covenant of love with God's people enters the woman and the two become one flesh united in the covenant of love and the sperm is sent forth from the tip of the place when the sign of the covenant of love is located - And it is not all about procreation, a common misconception. Sex in the Scriptures is for pleasure. Consider David. Or not, he was a male slut. Consider the book Song of Songs (aka Song of Solomon) which is as lusty a book there is and it is not about procreation, it is about the pleasures of sexual mating and joy between two lovers. And in the celebration of the joys of the flesh of sexual pleasure, the sign of God's presence and covenant is there saying, this is good. Remember that in the story of Abraham and Sarah being told of the forthcoming conception and birth of Isaac, with Sarah being well past child bearing years and Abraham being quite old himself, Sarah's response is not, "am I going to get pregnant at my age" but rather: "Will I yet have pleasure again?" Sex is a pleasure, a joyous gift in creation, a blessing that God has given to us for no other living thing gets off on sex as the human creation does - and thus, in those moments of rapture and bliss, the sign of the covenant of God's love and blessings are there. And that is what makes the act of sexual expression between two people who love each other not an act of nature but a sacramental act which celebrates love, joy, please, and the gift of goodness to us in our lives. As for the Christian debate: circumcision was and continues to be an act of the covenantal relationship with God. After the events we call the Resurrection, the nascent Christian community saw itself as fully Jewish (naturally, they were all Jews). But then there were all the people called proselytes - non Jews, Gentiles in Biblical terms, who were attracted to Judaism for its ethics, it monotheism, etc., but had not become members of the Jewish faith community because the males were too chicken shit to whip their cock out and get it cut, no matter how skilled the rabbi was in such things.... suddenly there appeared, perhaps, a way for these proselytes to join the Jewish community not by circumcision but by baptism (a Jewish practice done by the Essenes and John the Baptist and others, a Jewish ritual) and by confession of faith in a Risen Savior and oh by the way not have to get circumcised. Now here is a easy way intro Judaism without getting the mark of the covenant because a new covenant is proclaimed in Jesus and baptism, not circumcision, is entrance into the community. The early Jewish Christian community was fractured by this debate - should circumcision be required for Gentiles to convert to Christianity (still at this time a sub set of Judaism). The debate was fierce on both sides and the great council of Acts 15 was called and after much debate it was decided: circumcision was not required for a non Jew to become a Christian under the grace the comes in the fulfillment of the Law in Jesus. This was a major decision with significant impact, on the one hand opening the doors to all sorts of Gentile proselytes into the Jewish faith as expressed in Christianity; on the other hand, it didn't exactly thrill the larger Jewish community that had not also become followers of Jesus. This (not the claim of Resurrection) marks the departure of Judaism and Christianity into two separate faiths, always interconnected but not separate, and that fate sealed by the fall of Jerusalem which left most Jewish Christians dead and thus ending their influence on the development of the early Church and leaving alive the Gentile Christians - who of course did not live in Jerusalem and thus were not killed there - as the overwhelming number of survivors of Titus and his armies laying waste to Judah; they lived elsewhere. And that completed the separation of Chirstianity and Judaism - certainly in my opinion to the detriment of Christianity which lost is sense of being the branch grafted on the tree (Paul's language) and resulted in their arrogant belief that they were the tree themselves. And that allowed the development of the greatest hate - fratricide - experienced as anti-Semitism. I am not sure how it was that circumcision became the standard for most American males in the 20th century, but I for one am glad. Even though the mark of the covenant with God was done by the doctor in a medical procedure rather than by the rabbi in the religious procedure, the mark is still there and I am glad to bear it not as I sign that I am Jewish but as a sign of my solidarity with my sisters and brothers of faith who are Jewish. After all this religious and historical talk, I will say that I feel it is almost out of place to declare my strong aesthetic preference for the circumcised organ and that if you want a place in my, ah, life, it better be... I would suggest the movie Europa Europa as the story of one who would hide the sign of the covenant to hide from Holocaust and comes to the realization that the mark of the covenant that he bears not only cannot be hidden but becomes his identity in the face of evil - and as far making decisions for babies? That argument sways me little. My parents made decisions when they choose to speak English to me instead of each speaking a different language so that I might grow up multi-lingual; they made decisions when they choose to let me know my extended family at the earliest moment rather than keep me unto themselves and live apart from the wider family - - they made decisions as to how to feed me, breast or bottle and whatever impact that has on child development, whether to read to me, whether to comfort me when I cried in my crib or whether to let me cry it out, whether to get my my shots which certainly made me cry in pain! I can remember wailing when I got my smallpox and polio vaccinations) - they didn't wait to ask me, do you want you body invaded with a needle so you be inoculated from mumps, they just did it in their decision making role, and making the decision to have me circumcised - which I have never thanked them for - is one of those decisions among so many others they made that affected my latter life but that is what parents do. I still have the mark of circumcision. (Glad I have it as explained before, and it also looks better to me, and left me looking like all of the other boys in the school shower, a big, big plus at the time and even now at the gym). I still have the smallpox mark on my arm. They made decisions that caused my small body a moment of pain but they did it out of the role and responsibility to make wise and loving and medical decisions for me. And I wish my parents would have gotten my ears pieced too; I would have loved to be a baby and child pirate, never would have remembered the pain, and could have avoided the pain I felt as an adult getting them pierced. And I wish the would have spoken to me in Italian and Polish and German instead of English and let me get a phonograph player of my own sooner and wish they would have quit fighting with me every time I bought a Beatles album thus wasting my money on the worthless junk ya da ya da ya da - somehow being circumcised is the one thing that I have no regrets over in whet decisions they made when I was an infant, just like all those shots and inoculations that I got that hurt me and made me scream and cry.,.. and my sons are circumcised and my grandsons are circumcised and God bless the women who authorize the circumcision of the males of my descent! Because they bear on their most important body part the mark of the covenant of God, the God loves us, and blesses the use of our bodies in their most physical use to express love, God's reminder that God is with us and saying, sex is good, I have blessed you and I have blessed your loving sexual unions. Now find holes in my views - no theory is without places of attack - but this is who it is for me and I have not seen this view presented in our annual threads on the subject. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 23:56:28 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Re: njc circumscision another view for no other living thing gets off on sex as the human creation does Have you ever seen a dog hump some one's leg? They seem to be enjoying the hell out of it. So Colin are dogs circumcised? Because they bear on their most important body part the mark of the covenant of God, the God loves us Nor having one of those nasty bugger, I would have guessed the heart or brain was the most important body part. Now find holes in my views - no theory is without places of attack - Vince You ask for it:)Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 23:59:14 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Re: NJC Two great articles on war Where do these people get these opinions from! :) Two more of my opinon pieces, both excellent articles from Canada's national newspapers: SarahGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 23:05:14 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: NJC Two great articles on war I know. They should keep their views to themselves, and I do wish people would stop sending them around. ;-) Sarah At 11:59 PM -0600 02/07/2003, kasey simpson wrote: >Where do these people get these opinions from! :) > > >Two more of my opinon pieces, both excellent articles from Canada's >national newspapers: > >Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 02:05:05 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: February 8 On February 8 the following items were published: 1974: "A Matchless Concert" - Performance Magazine (Review - Concert) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=767 1998: "Joni Chic" - Sunday Telegraph (Appreciation, with photographs) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=367 2000: "Both Sides Now" - Dallas Morning News (Review - Album) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=496 2000: "Joni Mitchell plays favorites on new album" - Chicago Sun Times (Review - Album) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=446 2000: "Joni's giggly voice gone" - Philadelphia Daily News (Review - Album) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=445 ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #99 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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