From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #91 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, February 4 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 091 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- NJC some of the foods I actually like & a few more I don't ["Wally Kairu] ask mike Pritchard njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #88 "NJC Religion" [colin ] Elton John, Ryan Adams, njc ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: CD players sound different, njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: Musical tastes REVEALED! NJC Tuba or not Tuba NJC [ZZScotty@aol.com] Re: the Catholic Church NJC ["kasey simpson" ] YOur mail in the Digest NJC ["Lucy Hone" ] Re: Shadows & Light [KLCass21@aol.com] Re: Shadows & Light [Little Bird ] Re: Fave Joni Lines (Magdalene Laundries) ["J.David Sapp" ] another great line ["J.David Sapp" ] Re Vinyl vs CD [Doug ] RE: Joni & the Catholic Church NJC now some of the foods I actually like & a few more I don't NJC ["mike prit] Re: Fave Joni Lines then Catholics (njc) ["mike pritchard" ] Re: Musical tastes REVEALED! NJC Tuba or not Tuba NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Fave Joni Lines (Magdalene Laundries) [Murphycopy@aol.com] one for the politicians - shades of country joe - actually just a cheap knock off njc ["ron" ] Re: joni is a sheep (or ram)! NJC [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Musical tastes REVEALED! NJC Tuba or not Tuba NJC [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Fave Joni Lines (Magdalene Laundries) NJC [dsk ] Re: Re Vinyl vs CD [Randy Remote ] Re: the Catholic Church NJC [dsk ] Fwd: You may be from Ohio if (NJC) [Fauchja@aol.com] Re: the Catholic Church NJC [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: the Catholic Church NJC [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: the Catholic Church NJC [sl.m@shaw.ca] Jackson Browne Concert NJC ["mike pritchard" ] update update update (njc) ["Victor Johnson" ] CD players sound different, njc ["Eryl B Davies" ] condeming NJC [vince ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 05:56:02 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: NJC some of the foods I actually like & a few more I don't cathya, then you'd be my perfect dinner guest. i specialize in curry dishes, spicy foods, and chinese. i steam my vegetables so that they will be crunchy and retain their colors. i have never stuffed a mushroom in my life, i abhor jello and i am a total stranger in the starbucks realm. i am a cookie freak -- but then can you bake them or should we resort to heather? in fact, would you marry me? (i think this is the second time i've asked you, you ungrateful wench.) wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 05:59:54 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: ask mike Pritchard njc you boring??? a virgin sheep can be the most enticing thing in the world. look at the welsh. wallyK - -----Mensaje original----- De: Heather [mailto:chiaroscuro@snet.net] Enviado el: Lunes, 03 de Febrero de 2003 07:51 p.m. Para: Wally Kairuz; _JMDL Asunto: RE: joni is a sheep (or ram)! I'm a Virgo and born in the Chinese lunar year of the sheep ... a virgin and a sheep. Can it get anymore boring than that?? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 09:40:59 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #88 "NJC Religion" Freddyb4@aol.com wrote: > thanking God that they survived, > the other side to this is that God meant those who did die to die. It'slike those people who for some reason or other missed an aeroplane that crashed. They God for saving them.It's klike God is saying 'i am going to destroy all those on that plane, but I don't ewnat you to die on it, so I shall make sure you miss it'. Or, as in the case a a famous person whose plane crashed but he survived. He believed God was teaching him somehting. How arrogant to think God kills scroes of people in order to tach this one man a lesson of some sort. If we really think 'things areemant to be, it islike accepting tht God intends a 5 yr old to die horribly of cancer, or at the hands of a murderer, or that they slowly die thru starvation, abuse and neglect. > and if it's true that unless I >accept God into my life, I will not be allowed into heaven when I die, then >quite frankly I don't want to go, > nor me. If Heaven is full of these pious people, I'd rather be soemwhere esle with people I love. > Hope this doesn't offend anyone Fred ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 02:07:38 -0800 From: cul heath Subject: Musical tastes NJC Fred wrote: >SO!!!! all of you, it's admit it time, lets see how diverse our tastes >are, list 10 artists/groups you like, but at the end of the list you >must include that secret that you meant to take to the grave, you know, >you love The Bay City Rollers!!! 1-Joni 2-Bjork 3-Tori Amos 4-Steely Dan 5-Pink Floyd 6-Paul Simon 7-Blink 182 8-Rolling Stones 9-Beatles 10-me grave: Perry Como "catch a falling star and put it your pocket never let it fade away catch a falling star and put it your pocket save it for a rainy day cos love may come and tap you on the shoulder some starless night and just in case you feel you want to hold her you'll have a pocket full of star light..." [my favorite song at 6 yrs old...1955...won the 1st grade talent contest with it...hahahahaha] the culster ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:33:22 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Elton John, Ryan Adams, njc Last night my wife dragged me to see Elton John performing solo at the Paris Lido for an AIDS gala in front of about 500 people. I wasn't expecting too much, and to my great amazement he was really rockin'. There was an avalanche of hits for 1h40' straight (oops, I mean gay), with merely 5 second breaks between the songs, all on grand piano. Towards the end of the show, Elton announced that he was going to play someone else's song. Lo and behold, the lucky one was no less than Ryan Adams' Sweet Carolina from Heartbreaker. Can you imagine: someone with a 30+ year career covering this young "garage sushi rock" kid of 29! What an honor. So if you still don't think this Ryan kid has got it, well Elton thinks so. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 07:04:48 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: CD players sound different, njc --- "Jim L'Hommedieu (Lama)" wrote: > C'mon, Kent. Everyone *KNOWS* that CD players all > sound alike. They're all > perfect and you know it. Now stop it; you'll scare > the children. Join the > herd and stop talking nonsense! > > Don't mind me. I'm just waxing sarcastic. I found > a $50 CD portable by > Panasonic that beats my 5 disc Sony. That's > impossible I know. I think > I'll have to return it cause I can't trust my own > ears. I hope you don't > mind if I send a copy of your post to some friends: > Jay (who's an > audiophile), and Catherine & Paz (who aren't). See, > Catherine? I'm not the > only one. Audiophile? Is that some new kind of perversion? (I am relieved to know that one day, when it becomes more of a priority than wondering how the hell I'm going to pay for my kids' post-secondary educations, that I might be able to pick up something decent for $50, which is about $1-million CDN.) ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 07:08:25 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Musical tastes REVEALED! NJC Tuba or not Tuba NJC --- mike pritchard wrote: > > mike in bcn (hoping that Catherine will not ask any > questions about which > mountains I was referring too ;-) Well, I wasn't *going* to... ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 07:15:57 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: NJC some of the foods I actually like & a few more I don't --- Wally Kairuz wrote: > > i am a cookie freak -- but then can you bake them or > should we resort to > heather? I can, and I do, but I shouldn't. > in fact, would you marry me? (i think this is the > second time i've asked > you, you ungrateful wench.) Well! I never noticed the first time. Anyway, I think we'd have to date once or twice first to see if it would work out or not. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 08:03:23 -0500 (EST) From: waytoblu Subject: Re: first albums bought njc Def Leppard "Pyromania"....and I remember buying "Thick as a Brick" because the cover looked so interesting and off the wall. Victor ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 08:33:27 EST From: ZZScotty@aol.com Subject: Re: Musical tastes REVEALED! NJC Tuba or not Tuba NJC First Bob said: "Well, Fred, the fact is I've always liked tuba music. The more tubas the merrier, as far as I'm concerned. Tubas always sound happy or at least funny to me." Then Jimmy: "Murphy, I've known you for 3 years now, and I didn't know we had so much in common. I *love* the tuba too! We'll just have to do a duet at Jonifest this year. Not many people know that I play the tuba professionally. I've been a member of the I.T.E.A (International Tuba-Euphonium Association) for quite some time now. There's so much more to the tuba than "oom pah pah, oom pah pah", and us tubists get such a bad rap." Dear fellers, I would have contacted you both privately, but I thought "why be selfish?" and decided to share this with everyone (well, not those Joni-only purists). Ebay has 16 items I'm sure you'd be interested in. Just search "Tubby the Tuba." They even have a copy of the book I used to love in the 50's. Here's an excerpt from the sales pitch: This is an old, very clean, hardcover children's book titled: Tubby the Tuba, by Paul Tripp, Treasure Books publishers, copyright 1954. The book tells the story of Tubby the Tuba and his musical instrument friends in an orchestra - Tubby complains to the others that there are never any pretty melodies written for Tubas. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 08:34:54 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Re: the Catholic Church NJC Sarah, I just wanted to make sure I under stood what it was you were saying, through some of the twisted rhetoric I've been reading. First, you are saying the Church as an institution, not as individual people, feels it is infallible. This has caused the Church (institution) to possibly cover up wrongs committed by individuals within the institution, things like abuse. I didn't read anything in your post that declared ALL Catholics are evil, but I might have missed that. Second, you read a book that expressed how you personally feel about the Catholic church, not that this one book gave you your perspective as another lister proposed. From all the post you have written I would find it difficult to believe that you form opinions from one source, but again I might have missed something. Third, I must admit that I was shocked to learn all the links you provide are merely opinions and not based in fact. Silly me, I've read most of the links posted here, by you and others, and only now I find it is mere opinions. Of course there are those that print partial articles that when I read the whole thing is not the view being expressed on this list, but is quoted as the gospel in part. Or the times people have taken something, written feverishly and found the statements they based their rhetoric on false yet never say oops, I jumped the gun there (Dashels speech comes to mind). You also said that you didn't see much tolerance for people who support the war. Well, it is quite alright to categorize ALL republicans as war mongering oil drinking swine, after all there are no individual good republicans, only individual good Catholics. I was also born and raised Catholic. I too had nuns as teachers, and some were very nice, some were not. I had to leave the faith as it's hard to be a practicing Catholic, and a practicing homosexual. However I hear you can be a priest, and a child molester. The church simply moves you from one area to another. Lastly, I missed the part where you don't respect others views, and where you were spitting, and sputtering. I've only read very thought out views from you. As I was born Catholic, and am a believer in God I would like to know if you have been putting me down for this. I am also a republican and you know how we just love war, so please be informed you Canadian trollop, this USA bit** will have Bush declare war on you. By the way does Canada have any oil? Kasey Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:36:30 -0000 From: "Lucy Hone" Subject: YOur mail in the Digest NJC What you wrote about sept 11th Sept was absolutely beautiful... My own feelings lie very much along side yours there. Beautifully expressed Fred... Lucy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:35:41 EST From: KLCass21@aol.com Subject: Re: Shadows & Light Andrea wrote regarding the Karen O'Brien bio: "I wholly suggest reading this book. It is frequently available on ebay." I heard it is to be published in the states in April, although Amazon lists it as available in May, hardcover for $19.57. I anxiously await! Kurt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 07:43:51 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: Shadows & Light Yes, it's very good. I know it has its critics but I found it to be really fascinating and informative. It filled in a lot of blanks for me and actually added a lot to my appreciation of some of her albums, Mingus in particular. Besides, little quotes from an interview I transcribed for the JM Homepage made it into the book, so that tickled me too. (The Speak Easy interview from Canada's Much More Music station) - -Andrew KLCass21@aol.com wrote:Andrea wrote regarding the Karen O'Brien bio: "I wholly suggest reading this book. It is frequently available on ebay." I heard it is to be published in the states in April, although Amazon lists it as available in May, hardcover for $19.57. I anxiously await! Kurt Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:35:36 -0600 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: Re: Fave Joni Lines (Magdalene Laundries) While I am sure Joni has some personal connection to ML she also has tremendous powers of empathy. I see ML as one of her best acting roles, especially in live performance. Remember she is playing the role of a young woman incarcerated into dreamless drudgery merely for the way men looked at her. Her friend Peg died and was stuffed in a hole. Plenty of fodder for venom in my view. And a much more effective critique than tearing up the Pope's picture. peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 11:22:54 -0500 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: musical tastes revealed (njc) >Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 18:13:01 -0800 >From: "Lori Fye" >Subject: Re: Musical REVEALED! NJC Cindy wrote, of David Cassidy: > just in case one of you might have accidentally gotten the wrong > idea, and thought i *might* be cool - > i went to see david cassidy in concert many many years ago and > *RUSHED THE STAGE.* >I confess: David Cassidy was my very first concert! I was 12, and my >mother took me, along with some girls I barely knew. When I was 17, I >became friends with a girl named Andrea who I later learned won David's >sweaty towel and Coke cup on a radio station giveaway -- and she still had >them!! >Is it just Ohio? Or is everyone as weird? >Lori Yes, I too liked David Cassidy AND Bobby Sherman. . .(back in '73 or so). Between the two of them I had 43 pictures of them taped to my bedroom wall. . (from Tigerbeat? magazine). . They both seemed so feminine back then. Marianne _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:38:56 -0600 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: another great line "they jiggle into surgery so hopefully beneath the blade" Her delivery of this line on T'log really brings it to life. Ah Joni you're a genius. peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 11:26:47 -0500 From: Doug Subject: Re Vinyl vs CD The discussion on the relative merits of vinyl and CD prompted me to dig out my vinyl copy of STAS (bought in 1968 for $3.49). I hadn't listened to it in 12 years since I bought the CD. I have always been annoyed at the tape hiss left on the CD ("Why couldn't they have done a better mastering job!" etc. etc.) but compared to vinyl the CD wins hands down, much clearer guitar, better highs. Which brings me to another subject. Another poster mentioned a loss of reverb on CDs. In my experience transferring vinyl or tape to CD, overuse of the de-noiser will kill reverb. I've used this side-effect successfully on audience-recorded bootlegs where there is too much "room sound" but it may explain why they left some hiss on STAS. Does anyone know of a better re-master of STAS? I love that album. Speaking of bootlegs, most of the CDs I have are pretty awful soundwise. Probably copies of copies of copies etc. We need to locate the original vinyl or good quality tapes to make good master CDs. If anyone in Eastern Ontario has any Joni bootlegs and wants them on CD, contact me. I would send copies to the archive in SC Doug Merrickville Ont. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:35:12 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: RE: Joni & the Catholic Church NJC now some of the foods I actually like & a few more I don't NJC >>but vegetables have to be prepared just so (I don't know how to do it, but they have to have some crunch and colour left in them when they're cooked.<< are you steaming? mike ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:04:30 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: Fave Joni Lines then Catholics (njc) Kakki wrote: >>Interestingly, in the Protestant school I attended, they beat children with rulers and said other religions, especially Catholics were evil, yet in the Catholic school I went to, they would never strike a child, and the worst that could happen was having to stand in the corner or say ten times more prayers.<< I don't know if you, kakki, or anyone out else there has see 'Liam', directed by Stephen Frears. It's very hard on the Catholic schooling that Liam had in the Liverpool of the 30s. Very good too on the way fascism takes a hold on the working classes when times get tough and how the friendly Irish (in this case) neighbours become job-stealing immigrants when one loses one's work. I obviously have no way of knowing if Liam's experience was typical of Catholic schools and personally doubt it but maybe I'm way off track here. I recommend the film for all the above reasons, and also, for the brits, for the chance to see 'Valerie Barlow' from Coronation Street as the evil teacher. Scary. >>I need to learn more brevity (but I tend to wordiness in my expressions). << Stand in the corner and repeat 100 times: " I must write more concisely (but I write too much)" There, that's four words out of the way. By the end of the week we'll by flying...;-) mike in bcn np David Sylvian and Robert Fripp. The First Day. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:47:06 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: joni is a sheep (or ram)! - NJC Heather writes: << I'm a Virgo and born in the Chinese lunar year of the sheep ... a virgin and a sheep. Can it get anymore boring than that?? Please send me some insight >> A virgin AND a sheep? I guess that means you've never been to Wales! (Sorry, Mike!) --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:20:34 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: joni is a sheep (or ram)! NJC Kate writes: << rabbit fish here! >> Snake bull here! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:44:13 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: NJC now some of the foods I actually like & a few more I don't this reminds me of when i was young & recoiling in horror the first time i saw a jar of artichoke hearts! being from the east coast, not knowing what artichokes were, i thought they belonged to some kind of strange green animal or maybe an exotic animal/vegetable! i had quite an imagination... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:44:21 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Musical tastes NJC >>I've got "The Golden Hits of Leslie Gore" which I bought partly out of nostalgia and partly for its kitsch value. I really think someone should do a musical play of all her songs - it would be fairly easy to attach a plot to it.<< that would be a great musical play! i have most of her 45s! i loved leslie gore & along with janis ian, my first female heros as a child! i was recently in touch with someone who plays with leslie gore who is performing & touring once more... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:49:09 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Musical tastes REVEALED! NJC Tuba or not Tuba NJC Sean mentioned: << Tubby the Tuba, by Paul Tripp, Treasure Books publishers, copyright 1954. >> Wow, Sean! I have a half a brain cell left that remembers that book! I am sure I had it or read it as a child. Did you read it when you were a little girl, Jimmy? --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 14:05:55 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Fave Joni Lines (Magdalene Laundries) David writes: << And a much more effective critique than tearing up the Pope's picture. >> As a proud, hopelessly fallen-away American Catholic, even *I* was offended when Sinead O'Connor ripped up the Pope's picture on SNL. It seemed like the kind of publicity stunts Madonna was pulling at the time. I knew the whole thing would backfire on her. Then I went to Ireland (ten years ago) and saw how much of a stranglehold the Catholic church had on so many aspects of life there, and I could understand this young Irishwoman's anger. I wonder if this incident was treated differently in the Irish and European media. In the US, Sinead was trashed by virtually everyone. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 11:21:11 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: one for the politicians - shades of country joe - actually just a cheap knock off njc Hi sheriff bush & deputy blair now available at: http://www.samp3.com/nukular_stompers.html Written by Robert Anderson and Dave Williams The Nukular Stompers are: Richard Black: guitars Dave Williams: fiddle, arrangement & MIDI Rupert Mellor: vocals Recorded by Richard Black at Street Level Studios, Cape Town, October 2002 Lyrics: Welcome to the party at the global saloon Pour a drink and pull up a chair Why look who's comin' in through the batwing doors (If it ain't) Sheriff Bush and Deputy Blair Our sheriff is a good man and a gentleman at heart And for years he hunted down the Reds But now they've left the prairies and he's turned his eagle eye On those folks who wear turbans on their heads (Chorus) Some people don't like him: they just don't understand He ain't like the rest of us, he don't see shades of grey (he's got) Big things on his mind and a big gun in his hand (you're) For us or against us......so have a nice day Now he's a real tough sheriff and he loves you like a son But you better choose your friends real well Cause if yew make him he's gonna pull out his six-gun And he's gonna blow yew all to hell Oh give us your diamonds your gold and you oil Give us your copper and your money (we'll give you) Big Macs, baseball caps and gangsta rap (and a) Place in our global economy "WELL I'M A MITE TETCHY AND I AIN'T IN THE MOOD FOR NO TURBANS MESSIN' WITH MY BRENT CRUDE (WE GOTTA) TEACH SOME RESPECK FER OL' UNCLE SAM; IF WE CAIN'T CATCH OSAMA THEN WE HIT SADDAM" (Chorus) Some people don't like him: they just don't understand He ain't like the rest of, he don't see shades of grey (he's got) Big things on his mind and a big gun in his hand (you're) For us or against.....so have a nice day. He's a real tough sheriff and he loves you like a daughter (don't go) Messin' with the bad boys in the alley ('cause) If you go and cosy up to folks ya didn't oughta (you'll get a) Heat-seekin' missile up your valley Share with us your copper, your diamonds and your iron Give us your labour and your sweat You can have Kentucky Fries, GM foods and pesticides (and) Thirty-seven brands of cigarettes (chorus) Some people don't like him: they just don't understand He ain't like the rest of us, he don't see shades of grey (he's got) Big things on his mind and a big gun in your hand (you're) For us or against us...so have a nice day. SO SIGN UP WITH US BOYS AND JOIN THE WAGON TRAIN WE'RE RIDING OFF TO FIGHT FOR PEACE (SO COME A ) LONG WITH THE SHERIFF AND HIS DEPUTY, WE'RE HEADIN OUT TO TAME THE WILD EAST....................................YEEEHAH..... Download it here ron np - los lobos - manny's bones ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:51:18 +0000 From: Chris Marshall Subject: NJC Gluten free cooking NJC This is another variant on the age-old recipe thread, I'm afraid. A friend of mine is gluten-intolerant, and I end up cooking for him now and again, so I'm searching for inspiration in terms of good tasty gluten-free recipes. Last time I cooked anything, I unwittingly poisoned him, despite thinking I'd done it all right. (His quote: "I thought this tasted too good...") I'm a pretty good cook ("I'm sittin' on my groceries" :-) ** but it seems as though a lot of my staple flavourings for stuff (Soy Sauce, Worcester Sauce, Tomato Ketchup!, other sauces/condiments) have wheat flour in, which is despressing, especially as I can't see *why*, for the love of Bod. (I mean... what flour in "thin" sauces like Soy or Worcester? Hello????) So, what would people suggest as good natural flavourings for things like stir-fries, and so on? Garlic, onion, ginger, shallots, chillies, etc, are all on my list, but I'm in search of something a bit more interesting and off the wall than those. (They're all quite mild flavours, unless one goes batshit with them, in which case they end up completely over the top!) Any other good gluten-free recipes also appreciated, although please bear in mind that I'll only have a small oven and one electric ring, or two electric rings (but no oven) to cook with, so don't get too fancy! You know... I think this is the first time I've ever asked for inspiration on the cookery front. Egads. Cheers, - --Chris Marshall ** Does that make this post Joni-Content? :-D :-D :-D :-D chrisAThatstand.org (AIM: Chr15Marshall) "If you're ever lost, I'll beat the world to finding you" Stryngs, "Bobblehats and Beer" Band website, with downloads, at http://www.stryngs.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 14:52:51 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: joni is a sheep (or ram)! NJC Kate writes: << rabbit fish here! >> and Bob wrote: Snake bull here! LOL, well I'm a monkey with crabs :~) Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 14:59:05 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Musical tastes REVEALED! NJC Tuba or not Tuba NJC In a message dated 2/4/2003 1:50:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, Murphycopy@aol.com writes: > Wow, Sean! I have a half a brain cell left that remembers that book! I am > sure I had it or read it as a child. Did you read it when you were a little > girl, Jimmy? > No, I'm not nearly as old as you Bob :-PPPPPPP (You're picking on *me* because the nice Bob is on the Joni only's now. That and because Guzzi doesn't want you to fertilize her eggs anymore) Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 15:11:06 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Fave Joni Lines (Magdalene Laundries) NJC Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: > > As a proud, hopelessly fallen-away American Catholic, even *I* was offended > when Sinead O'Connor ripped up the Pope's picture on SNL. It seemed like the > kind of publicity stunts Madonna was pulling at the time. I knew the whole > thing would backfire on her. Then I went to Ireland (ten years ago) and saw > how much of a stranglehold the Catholic church had on so many aspects of life > there, and I could understand this young Irishwoman's anger. As I understand it, perhaps incorrectly, the Catholic Church and the government of Ireland were in effect the same institution, and so there was no divorce allowed until rather recently and perhaps still no abortions and maybe not even birth control available now either. (The last two are my guesses.) I've heard that there's been some attempt in the past few years to separate church from government there, although I don't know the specifics of it all. I didn't have any reaction to Sinead's tearing up the pope's picture, and wondered what all the fuss was about. I couldn't tell from the show if she did it in genuine anger or as more of a publicity stunt. Whichever it was, she had a right to express her disapproval of the pope and, by extension church, and her protest didn't bother me at all. That stranglehold in Ireland is another example of how it's never ever a good idea to mix religion with government, whether it's in Ireland or Iran or Afghanistan or here. From my view, it just doesn't ever work to the benefit of most citizens to combine the idealism of religion (and it's usually one specific religion) with all the practical matters and many different types of people governments have to serve. Bush complaint alert: That's why Bush's attempt to meld the two, in his faith-based giving plan for example, is so potentially destructive. Plus it's downright unconstitutional, although with his conservative judges on the court eventually by the time challenges to it work their way through the court system, that melding will probably remain in place, if not increase. It is not a good thing. Can I tear up a picture of Bush now? Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 15:15:29 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: joni is a sheep (or ram)! NJC FMYFL@aol.com wrote: > > Kate writes: > > << rabbit fish here! >> > > and Bob wrote: > > Snake bull here! > > LOL, well I'm a monkey with crabs :~) What are all these combinations? Astrological sign with Chinese year sign? If so, lion dragon here. Hear me roar... Strange, most days I feel like a virgin sheep. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 12:34:15 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Re Vinyl vs CD Doug wrote: > Does anyone know of a better re-master of STAS? I love that album. > The hissing and general poor quality of STAS was fixed when the HDCD version came out. It is a big improvement. Make sure it says HDCD on the back cover and also on the disc (in Europe some regular CDs got packed into the new HDCD packages) My understanding of the original mix of STAS is that Crosby miked a piano to try to pick up the strings resonating to Joni's vocals and guitar. Since they had to turn the faders way up, they added alot of noise to the recording. When it was remastered for HDCD, they eliminated those tracks. RR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 16:45:21 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: the Catholic Church NJC Sarah wrote: > > You expect me to respect your Catholicism and your criticism, but you > won't respect my atheism or my criticism. and this from another message: > And, with respect, you have written posts about the Middle East, but > appear not to be an expert, and you have a right to. Similarly, I > have a right to express a view about the Catholic Church without > having to be a specialist. Sarah, 1. With the first comment above you try to turn this disagreement into an argument about religion, and based on the messages on the list, you've succeeded at that, unfortunately. 2. It is not about religion. It is about my not accepting negatively biased inaccurate generalizations about a huge group of people. 3. I recall you doing a similar condemnation of Islam a while ago when I didn't have time to read everything and respond with care, so I let it go, and was glad to see that other people did respond to what I considered bigoted comments. This time I did have the time to react to your comments. Bigoted statements, toward any group, don't go unnoticed here. 4. Then you blame me of claiming I'm an expert and you're not. I'm not an expert in anything. I could see, though, that you did not have accurate information and I shared what I knew. 5. Condemning the entire Church because of one book/movie and your mother's experiences (which really are HER experiences from an earlier time and not yours) is taking bits of information way too far, and then refusing to listen when three different people say something about it creates an odd situation for everyone. It's not your lack of personal experience with it all that bothered me and it's not your lack of agreement. What set me off yesterday was that you then turn that around and make accusations as your defense, rather than consider what anyone has said. 6. So you've effectively twisted it up enough now that it's confusing for almost everyone, and you feel put upon. That's your choice. 7. The tactic of "the best defense is a good offense" is rather common. I'm not buying it this time. Debra Shea P.S. And because I'm in a peevish mood, I will point out that since I know so little about the Middle East, my last message about it was on April 12, 2002, and was about Sharon and Arafat, and messages followed that contradicted my opinion. They didn't change my mind, but did make me realize there's a bigger picture to be seen. In other words, and this is an extreme peevishness alert: I didn't keep battering anyone over the head with my bit of knowledge, and then blame them of other things when they didn't accept my limited viewpoint as the TRUTH. Being faced with that attitude from you (as I saw it) is what made me so angry yesterday. For whatever that is worth to anyone... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 16:44:49 EST From: Fauchja@aol.com Subject: Fwd: You may be from Ohio if (NJC) From my sister... Fauchja (Facha) NP: Ripple by Rick Danko Return-path: From: WestLess@aol.com Full-name: WestLess Message-ID: <43.17a7017a.2b7170ff@aol.com> Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 14:39:43 EST Subject: You may be from Ohio if................... To: AdobePete@aol.com, DButte8444@aol.com, drobina@avolve.net, Fauchja@aol.com, JosephSiciliano@attbi.com, Npm17@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: AOL 8.0 for Windows US sub 230 X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/alternative by demime 0.97c X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain You may be from Ohio (pronounced O-hi-uh) if: You think all Pro football teams are supposed to wear orange! You know all the 4 seasons: Winter, Still Winter, Almost Winter and Construction. You live less than 30 miles from some college or university. You know what a buckeye really is, and have a recipe for candy ones. "Toward the lake" means north and "toward the river" means south. You've heard of the Great Nickel Beer Night Riot. You know if other Ohioans are from southern or northern Ohio as soon as they open their mouths. You can spell words like Cuyahoga, Olentangy, Bellefontaine, Tuscarawas, Wapakoneta and you know which letter is doubled in Cincinnati. "Vacation" means spending a day at Cedar Point. You measure distance in minutes. Your school classes were canceled because of cold Your school classes were canceled because of heat. You've ever had to switch from "heat" to "A/C" in the same day. You know what should be knee-high by the Fourth of July. You end your sentences with an unnecessary preposition. Example: "Where's my coat at?" You install security lights on your house and garage and leave both unlocked. You think of the major four food groups as beef, pork, beer, and Jell-O salad with marshmallows. You carry jumper cables in your car. You know what 'pop' is. You design your kid's Halloween costume to fit over a snowsuit Driving is better in the winter because the potholes are filled with snow. You think sexy lingerie is tube socks and a flannel nightgown. The local paper covers national and international headlines on one page but requires 6 pages for sports. You know which leaves make good toilet paper. You actually get these jokes, then forward 'em to your OHIO friends. Ohio According to Foxworthy .7:*'('*:7..7:*'('*:7. ::: (3) ::: *: ^)^ :* *7. ( .7* *7-:|:-* Have a great day! Dana ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 15:48:00 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: the Catholic Church NJC Hi Kasey, Here's another one of my opinion links. This is a bit long and hard to wade through, but it's good on on shedding light on why one half of the US intelligence community believes Saddam is involved with al-Qaeda and the other half doesn't. I remember a few people asking about that so I thought this might be of interest. Remember, though, it isn't a real "article", just some moron's opinion. ;-) From the New Yorker by Jefrrey Goldberg, actually a brilliant journalist and Iraq specialist: http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?030210fa_fact Sarah At 8:34 AM -0600 02/04/2003, kasey simpson wrote: >Third, I must admit that I was shocked to learn all the links you >provide are merely opinions and not based in fact. Silly me, I've read >most of the links posted here, by you and others, and only now I find >it is mere opinions. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 16:13:58 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: the Catholic Church NJC No, I did NOT turn this into a discussion about religion. The thread was started by others, regarding Joni and to what extent, if any, Joni Mitchell's experience is comparable to the Magdalene Laundries. And it went on from there. I do condemn any institution that promotes the idea that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, and that perfectly natural behaviour is "wicked". For me, that is most religions (I would say that Judaism might be the exception here) and some forms of government. For me, the individual is the primary social unit. Anything that oppresses the individual, tries to brainwash him/her, tries to make them feel inferior to some external idea (e.g, a god, the greater good etc) is to be avoided, IMO. In particular, I dislike any ideology that teaches there will be a better life AFTER this one - so this life doesn't matter. That is what is so sad about the suicide bombers (apart from the murders they commit) - that they are taking their own lives in search of the "real life" which is eternal and which begins after this one. And so they throw their whole lives away, the only lives they've got in my view. How sad. And always, the leaders, the teachers and the parents aren't the ones actually doing it, just the kids. Debra, I didn't say you claimed to be an expert on the Middle East. You're mis-remembering or mis-reading. There's no point in trying to stir it up again. We disagree - why not leave it at that, or else try to find points of agreement or constructive disagreement? I think the main reason we appear to be disagreeing is that, when talking about the Catholic church, I'm not talking about any individual Catholic, priest or Pope, but about the institution. Similarly, when talking about Islam, I'm talking about Islamist ideology (note: Islamist, not Moslem in general), which I find frightening and primitive. To what extent individual Moslems buy into it is not the point. It should go without saying that there are ALWAYS individual Moslems, Catholics, or whatever, who go against the grain, and who may eventually be able to change things for the better. For example, it was the imam of the mosque in Brixton, London who tried (before 9/11) to make the British government take notice of the extremist version of Islam being taught in the Finsbury Park mosque, where Richard Reid, the shoe bomber and one of the 9/11 hijackers worshipped, and where ricin and bio-chemical protection suits were recently found. But he wasn't listened to, because the British government didn't want to be "insensitive" to the Moslem community, and the rest is history. In a debate about an INSTITUTION, it shouldn't be necessary to go on repeating that the experience of individuals can be different. Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 16:21:41 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: the Catholic Church NJC Kasey, yes, we do have oil! And uranium too. Now that you mention it, there's been a lot of talk about how we let in the 9/11 hijackers, and how our water is needed to irrigate Californian deserts, and about what a nuisance the Canadian border is. . . ;-) Sarah At 8:34 AM -0600 02/04/2003, kasey simpson wrote: >I am also a republican and you know how we just love war, so please >be informed >you Canadian trollop, this USA bit** will have Bush declare war on you. By >the way does Canada have any oil? >Kasey ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 23:23:33 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Jackson Browne Concert NJC Jackson Browne playing here in April. Anyone seen him lately? What kind of shape is he in? Any comments? Worth seeing? mike ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:28:34 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: update update update (njc) I've been lurking and deleting (mostly deleting) for the past few weeks and have gotten a jist of current/recent threads...my only comment is re the current JC/NJC thread and is directed towards anyone who is in a big uproar over all of this-- GET A LIFE! (remember this is just a computer that can easily be turned off-life is for living! a friend of mine(who worked for IBM) once said the internet is just a "glorified yellow pages" and he was 3/4 right really...there is 1/4 that is something else but I can't really pin it down) In other news I am moving back to Decatur, Georgia next week. I have procured a job at the new "Whole Foods Market" opening in March and found an incredible apartment in a newly built Victorian house that is absolutely astonishing. The best part is there's a huge deck right outside my back door that can easily hold around 25 people or so. Can't wait for the springtime! I'm still working in the studio and things are going great. Everything's sounding better and better. A major announcement will be coming sometime in March so keep your ears/eyes tuned. Also, I'm doing a Valentine's show at the "Black Wolf Vineyards" in Dobson, North Carolina if anyone lives out that way or is up for a roadtrip. Feb 15th from 7:30 to 10:30 visit blackwolfvineyards.com for more information. Victor NP: Joni "Hejira" (S&L) - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 00:12:42 -0000 From: "Eryl B Davies" Subject: CD players sound different, njc >Kent Southard said he got a new CD player, >>> - the NAD 571t has the HDCD feature, and as it's currently selling at >half price, $400, I got one. And the difference is truly extraordinary, my >system sounds like I just spent thousands rather than a few hundred. >Clearer, richer, punchier, more detailed than you can believe. My previous >CD player (also NAD) in comparison made the music seem like a paint by >numbers picture with most of the canvas left white. I have read many reviews of NAD equipment and it seems that it can be quite variable in sound quality. When all the tolerances happen to match they can sound wonderful, but some turn out to be real pigs. Although I don't own one I think that Denon make some consistently good sounding equipment. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 19:20:30 -0500 From: vince Subject: condeming NJC There is a huge difference between saying "a particular philosophy, belief, religious tenant, religion, whatever, does not work for me, in the experience of my own life, and so I choose to follow what does work for me" and "I condemn the beliefs of others." The former is something that I believe based on my experience of life that we are all supposed to do, to find what belief system or sets of beliefs - and everyone has those be they religious, a-religious, political, social, what have you - are true to one's one experience of life. And with that goes the respect for other beliefs and people who hold those beliefs, as I experience life. The latter is something that history has taught me to fear, to fear anyone who condemns the beliefs of others, who condemns the beliefs systems of others. So much evil - Inquisition, Holocaust, by whatever name it is called - has been done because one person or a group of people have condemned the beliefs of others, as I experience history. Sarah wrote: > I do condemn any institution that promotes the idea that the whole is > greater than the sum of its parts, and that perfectly natural > behaviour is "wicked". For me, that is most religions (I would say > that Judaism might be the exception here) and some forms of government. This is to me so incredibly judgmental and frightening. It begs the question of whether "most religions" or a particular religion actually do promote the idea that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. It begs the question of whether of the idea of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts is in itself a concept worthy of condemnation. And it total discounts the fact that for different people, there will be diversity of experience here. What one person experiences one way, another person will experience another. And the experiences of all people are valid, as all people are valid. And no one should be condemned, no religious set of beliefs or political theory should be condemned in such terms. This completely overlooks the diversity of people, and the freedom of all people to find what works for them, what expresses their lives. And it is frighteningly dogmatic in the most fearsome way, again recalling the mind set that produced Inquisition and Holocaust. Is it always true that the sum of the parts is greater than the whole? Might there be some places in life where this is so, and other places in life where it is not so? Is any one formulation, or ideology, or belief system, universally right in all times and in all places for all people in all situations? And if so, who decides? Me? Debra? Sarah? But Sarah, you condemn - your own words - whatever goes against the belief system that you have chosen to be universal in your world view. Do you not understand how at best that is insulting and at worst the very definition of all intolerance, hate, and evil done in this world by people to people? Where is the tolerance in condemning others? Where is the respect - which you crave - when you condemn others, and what others believe? Do others have a right to condemn you if they disagree? If everyone is going around condemning, where is the ability to have a future free from hostility, hate, and disrespect? Diversity and respect rests in saying "there are a set of views which personally I find untrue to my life experience and so I will not hold them, but I respect others who do hold those views because it may be true to their life experience and each of us is free to hold those beliefs because each of us has the right to hold beliefs without being condemned." Intolerance is in saying "I condemn (not disagree with, not respectfully differ from, not critique according to these academic standards, but *condemn*) any religious or political science teaching that disagrees with what I have chosen to be the universal standard. And what is being condemned - is it genocide, or ethnic cleansing, or hate is being condemned? No, what is condemned - what word, condemned - is "the idea that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts." For that phrase one condemns? For that, one condemns? Yes, there is another part to what Sarah, you posted, and that is beliefs "that perfectly natural behaviour is "wicked." Again that begs the question of whether your interpretation of who does that is correct, or are their other equally valid views and interpretations that differ from you. If we talk in terms of the Roman Church, you had best be prepared to distinguish from *your own experience* from what you condemn as a whole without being able to cite to me the exact places where you locate that, in dogmatic teaching, in confessions, in the belief system of the church you condemn. Without such citations, you are making an accusation that my be your own life experience and may work for you, but condemning others whose life experiences are different than yours and whose belief systems are different. I am, in a word you like, an "expert" on religion. Yes, to be sure, all of us have our experiences of the RC Church, and mine is such that I do not and will not belong to it. But I recognize what is my experience of it and distinguish that from other people's same experience, and even more, what is there beyond my own experience or ability to conceive. I suggest that it is the root of all disrespect and dare I say cheap thinking (in an academic sense) to make one's own experiences into the whole, to universalize one's own experiences. One's own anecdotes are never a substitute for actuality. And beyond - what are we defining as "perfectly natural behavior?" As far as I can see from all studies of history and psychology and sociology and myriad other places, violence is perfectly natural behavior. Murder is perfectly natural behavior. Hate is perfectly natural behavior. Theft is perfectly natural behavior. Slavery is perfectly natural behavior. In some societies, incest is perfectly natural behavior. Fratricide, matricide, patricide is perfectly natural behavior. So by what definition does one condemn those who teach that these perfectly natural behaviors are ones not to be acted upon? By what definition to you condemn those belief systems that call us to rise above perfectly natural behavior? If you wish to say, Oh I didn't mean that and you know that" I say to you, wrong, I have simply quoted exactly what you wrote, and yours was that broad of an attack, that broad of a condemnation. I happen to personally believe that the Roman Catholic dogmatic view of sexuality is flawed, at places deeply flawed, as it rests in methodological presuppositions that are not true to human experience. Were we to have a discussion I that, I will explain that, based on my own insights and perspectives. I cannot fathom jumping from my opinion on one topic of hundreds of topics, even this one that basic, to a blanket condemnation of the Roman Catholic Church. Nor can I accept your doing that either for that is judgmental as if your own experience is universal, your own beliefs are universal, and by your standards must all else be judged. That I do not accept. The Roman Church is far, far more than its dogma on one subject. As there are many points of departure from Roman theology for me where I diverge from them, I could never be Roman Catholic. But that is still the height of presumptuousness to then, for me, to condemn a faith system which has deepest meanings and answers life's deepest questions for others. Are there wacky nuns and priests out there who have done wacky things that we know of in our own experience? Yes of course. Are there adherents of that faith group that have sexually abused children? Yes there are. Does that apply to the whole? Let me be blunt: no fucking way. If you believe that, then the logical extension is that all atheists have never been wacky, or that atheists have never sexually abused children. And reality rejects that logical extension. Has evil been done by religious people? Yes. And can one condemn religious beliefs because of that? No. I will name noted atheists Hitler and Himmler and Stalin and the Cambodian Khmer Rogue (spelling...) as recent examples that people with no faith beliefs can be genocidal, evil, and murderers. Should I then condemn all atheists or atheism as a belief system because of Hitler and Himmler and Stalin and the Cambodian Khmer Rogue? Can I then condemn everyone who holds to an atheist belief system because of that? No, I cannot. To evaluate the effect of what a writer condemns wholesale, condemning what someone else believes, it helps to put the writer's own name into what was written to see if the statement stands. > I think the main reason we appear to be disagreeing is that, when > talking about Sarah, I'm not talking about any individual friend of > Sarah, but about Sarah. Similarly, when talking about Sarah, I'm > talking about Sarah's ideology (note: Sarahist, not Sarah in general), > which I find frightening and primitive. To what extent individual > friends of Sarah buy into it is not the point. > > It should go without saying that there are ALWAYS friends of Sarah, or > whatever, who go against the grain, and who may eventually be able to > change things for the better. > > In a debate about Sarah, it shouldn't be necessary to go on repeating > that the experience of individuals can be different. > What you wrote, Sarah, is that Catholicism is evil but you do not condemn individual catholics who do not believe much of what their faith teaches. What you say is that Islam is evil but you do not condemn individual Moslems who do not believe much of what their faith teaches. And I can only say, in light of my own human experience, what incredible arrogance to set yourself up as judge of others religions. The sins of history are rooted in that type of thinking, as I have experienced history. You allow no recognition that your own experience may not be the whole; in fact, you exalt your own experience into the whole to condemn others. I am certainly not Islamic. I have many experiences with islam. I cannot pretend to say that I know everything about Islam. I know that there are areas in which i disagree with Islam. I can articulate reasons why I cannot belief certain things that islam teaches and practices. But to condemn - that I cannot do for I am aware of the limitations of my own experience, my own thinking, and the sample beliefs and behavior that I seek to judge. Pick out horror stories and I will match you. Inequality of women a religious problem? Where was the equality of women in Hitler's Germany or Stalin's USSR other than the equality to be condemned - and once condemnation happened, then killed, because they were condemned? You wish to demur and say that Stalin and Hitler do not speak for all non religious people? Then give the same respect and stop judging - condemning - people of faith, and the institutions of faith, because you differ with their beliefs. I close - finally! - be speaking frankly. Sarah, if you had said, "in my own experience, I find there are certain thinks that I strenuously object to in this or that or the other and thus I cannot be this or that or the other, but I know that I do not have access to the whole reality or the whole understanding of every other person so I will respect those whose insights, experiences, and realities are different than mine" then none of this conversation would be happening. Instead you said: you condemn. And you have said it repeatedly. And you have said it every time that clarification would have helped; instead you repeat the language of condemnation, as if you have all truth and the right to judge the whole world by what you exalt as truth. Sarah, my truth is different than yours. I thank my God that my God has taught me never to exalt my truth over others to condemn what others believe. And like it or not, when you condemn the belief systems of others, you are condemning the people who hold those beliefs - as you yourself say, you only have use for those who go "against the grain" of their own belief systems. That is language - in my experience - that I will oppose and speak out against, because I have seen where that condemnation leads. (And I also deeply challenge your understandings of the creedal confessional teachings of any Christian church body - I suspect you are unfamiliar with what I mean by creedal and confessional teachings and their place in the theologies of the various Christian faith communities.) I accept you at your word. You condemn my faith and the faith of billions of people in the world. I could ask who made you judge of all human beliefs - but I note: You ask for respect for your opinions while you condemn mine. John, Paul,. George, and Ringo said it best when they said, "And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make." Yours is a very lonely ideology. I pity you, actually. Vince ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #91 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)