From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #87 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, February 3 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 087 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Fave Joni Lines (Magdalene Laundries) [Sarah Gibb ] Re: Fave Joni Lines (Magdalene Laundries) ["kakki" ] TIPPY WALKER/joni look-alike ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Reagan - HIV NJC ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: Reagan - HIV NJC ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: Reagan - HIV NJC ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: Musical tastes we'll take to the grave REVEALED! NJC ["Tamsin Lucas" ] Re: Musical tastes we'll take to the grave REVEALED! NJC [AzeemAK@aol.com] Joni and the birth and adoption of her child [Aerchak@aol.com] Re: Fave Joni Lines (Magdalene Laundries) [Sarah ] 10 artists/groups....NJC ["Lucy Hone" ] joni mitchell Taming the Tiger poster [Aerchak@aol.com] Re: Joni & the Catholic Church NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: Musical tastes we'll take to the grave REVEALED! NJC ["Tamsin Lucas" ] Re: Joni & the Catholic Church NJC [Sarah ] Re: Musical tastes we'll take to the grave REVEALED! NJC ["Lori Fye" ] Re: NJC P.J. Harvey [AzeemAK@aol.com] Safe Foods, njc [Ron Greer ] Re: NJC P.J. Harvey/David Gray [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: NJC P.J. Harvey/David Gray now Ryan [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] favourite top ten (or thereabouts) njc??? [Ron Greer ] Re: NJC P.J. Harvey/David Gray now Ryan [AzeemAK@aol.com] PJ Harvey njc (one more post and I'll shut up about her) [AzeemAK@aol.com] more joni vinyl ["walterphil" ] Re: NJC P.J. Harvey/David Gray now Ryan [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Let her speak [Mags N Brei ] Re: joni mitchell Taming the Tiger poster ["Christopher Treacy" ] Re: Safe Foods, njc [Jenny Goodspeed ] Re: Reagan - HIV NJC ["kasey simpson" ] Re: Safe Foods, njc [Sarah ] RE: Reagan - HIV NJC ["Jerry Notaro" ] Re: Reagan - HIV NJC [Susan Guzzi ] Re: Reagan - HIV NJC [Sarah ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 02:03:36 -0700 From: Sarah Gibb Subject: Re: Fave Joni Lines (Magdalene Laundries) Kakki, as Lori wrote elsewhere, Joni "lived, artistically, in a Magdalene Laundry of her own making, supervised by her mother's morality." I think that psychological point is the important one here. The article you sent said that the Catholic hospital bound her breasts so she couldn't produce any milk! And it doesn't say that the adoption agency wasn't Catholic. If the hospital was, the agency is likely to have been, although I don't know that for a fact. My idea about self-hatred, or more accurately lack of self-definition, comes from her early lyrics, and I wondered whether her exposure to the Catholic hospital when she had polio may have contributed to that, although I don't know how long she was in hospital for then. Whatever caused it, I hear in her lyrics that she didn't think much of herself. Put that on top of the horrible social pressures, and there was little hope she'd feel able to keep the baby. Sarah At 11:14 PM -0800 02/02/2003, kakki wrote: >You are right - I thought she had been in awhile because she had commented >on how the unwed mothers were treated and it sounded like she was in for a >time. She did stay in a Catholic charity hospital almost two weeks as a >result of complications. She has spoken about this in a few articles - the >one I recalled is from the L.A. Times here >http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=83 In this article, she also says >that it was the adoption agency, and not the nuns who told her to give the >back up quickly so it would be more "adoptable." > > Also, Joni was not >raised a Catholic, so the premise that she may have had some kind of a >lifelong sense of shame and self-loathing from them doesn't add up to me. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 23:54:40 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Fave Joni Lines (Magdalene Laundries) Sarah wrote: > Kakki, as Lori wrote elsewhere, Joni "lived, artistically, in a > Magdalene Laundry of her own making, supervised by her mother's > morality." I think that psychological point is the important one > here. I missed Lori's comment but I think there is a lot of insight in it. Although her mother and father both encouraged her creativity, her mother was stuck in the old rules and ways, while her father seemed more liberal and openminded. I just don't see Catholicism as being the root of all social evils of the time. I recall most all religions being pretty moralistic during that era. Many were much more moralistic, strict, punitive and unforgiving than the Catholics in my experience. > And it doesn't say that the adoption agency wasn't Catholic. If the hospital was, the agency > is likely to have been, although I don't know that for a fact. I'm pretty sure it was a state-run agency based on other interviews she has given. She kept the baby at times and then placed her in foster homes on and off. She was trying to keep her. She did not agree to give her up for adoption until eight months later. >My idea about self-hatred, or more accurately lack of self-definition, > comes from her early lyrics, and I wondered whether her exposure to > the Catholic hospital when she had polio may have contributed to > that, although I don't know how long she was in hospital for then. I think she was in the hospital with polio for many months. Still, she seemed to me to have a well-developed sense of self prior to the time. Based on her stories of childhood, she was already showing an independent creative streak and was already smoking cigarettes at age 8. She also in a way stood up to her caregivers at the hospital by insisting that she could walk and by making them take her outside so she could prove it to them. She proved it and was discharged. > Whatever caused it, I hear in her lyrics that she didn't think much > of herself. Put that on top of the horrible social pressures, and > there was little hope she'd feel able to keep the baby. That's interesting - I never thought of her not thinking much of herself. I thought of her as vulnerable and sensitive and questioning, but interpreted that as typical of a highly creative person. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 05:23:18 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: TIPPY WALKER/joni look-alike i just finished watching my worn and very valuable copy of ''jennifer on my mind'', a 1971 movie with michael brandon and tippy walker. am i the only person in the world that's seen this movie? anyway, i had never realized how exactly like joni in her youth (walker was 25 at that time) tippy walker looks. does anybody know who i'm talking about? am i the only tippy walker fan on earth? i've been searching for hours for any information on walker on the net. i found out that now she is ''an artist and writer who has lived in New Haven, Connecticut, USA, since 1984'' and that she ''owns and operates a storefront art gallery, "Out of the Blue", near the Yale University campus''. she is 56 now. i wonder if she still looks so much like joni. i would give anything to meet tippy walker. i have been madly in love with her since i was 10 years old. anybody in yale campus area that might drop by the gallery? wallyK, sleepless and obsessed ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 03:25:35 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Reagan - HIV NJC > > (Two Term Limit on President) so Reagan might be able to run AGAIN! > >OMG Lori, I completely forgot about THAT movement! I may have left the >country as well. Recent >history may paint his presidency well, but I doubt his legacy wll stand the >test of time long >term. Sorry to burst your bubble..but his legacy is not only in tact..but in a recent survey taken..(name your fave prez)Reagan beat out Clinton. >I don't know how you did it Lori. I would have stayed mad for eight years >if that was my >girlfriend! LOL! I don't understand people who are together and have such >different politics - >bring it on Bree - splain this to me! I hope she converts you! Carville and Matlin? Not only is it possible...it makes things quite interesting. (you should try somebody different...that IS Not in lock-step with you..it heats things up a bit ;-)) test of wills. It could be that it is I that is converting her? :_) The best way I can splain it is that Joni can bridge anything. Bree >Peace, >Susan > >NP: Joni/T'logue/You Dream Flat Tires >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. >http://mailplus.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 03:33:47 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Reagan - HIV NJC Correcting myself: I meant WHO IS NOT..WHO WHO..it's late.. 3:30AM. Bree >Carville and Matlin? Not only is it possible...it makes things quite >interesting. (you should try somebody different...that IS Not in lock-step >with you..it heats things up a bit ;-)) test of wills. It could be that >it is I that is converting her? :_) The best way I can splain it is that >Joni can bridge anything. > >Bree > > > >>Peace, >>Susan >> >>NP: Joni/T'logue/You Dream Flat Tires >>Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. >>http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > >_________________________________________________________________ >The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 03:37:42 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Reagan - HIV NJC >From: "Lori Fye" >Reply-To: "Lori Fye" >To: Susan Guzzi , joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: Reagan - HIV NJC >Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 15:44:57 -0800 > > > I don't know how you did it Lori. I would have stayed mad for eight > > years if that was my girlfriend! LOL! I don't understand people who > > are together and have such different politics - > >The thing is, other than the Reagan disagreement, Mary's and my >political opinions are 99.9% the same. As far as her voting for Reagan >when she did, we weren't together either of those times. We met in >1981 and spent a lovely summer in Mississippi, then didn't see each >other for 18 years. I wonder if I could've influenced her voting if we >HAD been together in 1980 and 1984? Hmmm ... > >Even though our politics ARE the same, I'm still always so surprised >and pleased on the occasions when Bush is on TV and Mary says, "I can't >fucking stand him; he makes me sick." : ) > >Lori _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 11:11:17 +0000 From: "Tamsin Lucas" Subject: Re: Musical tastes we'll take to the grave REVEALED! NJC Hello Fred, I'm in the UK too - and my bestest brother is also a Fred. My top 10: Joni Tori Ryan Adams The Beatles Bob Dylan Beth Orton Nirvana The Smiths Liz Phair (new album *Happy Tragic Thing* out in May woo-hoo!) Bjork Secret I really shouldn't reveal - I LOVE "Don't stop movin'" by S Club 7 and can't help but boogie & sing along whenever I hear it. Good Grief ;-) _________________________________________________________________ Chat online in real time with MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 06:28:29 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Musical tastes we'll take to the grave REVEALED! NJC Well, I will admit that for a few years my favourite album was Bat Out Of Hell - and I knew every word to every song and would sing along - I was a teenager, what can I say... Someone mentioned the Osmonds. I don't know if this counts as shameful, but in the late 80s One Bad Apple was re-released, and hearing it on the radio I remember thinking of the prepubescent voice of "Little" Jimmy, "my God, that kid could sing a bit couldn't he?" Azeem in London, off to say my secular hail marys... NP: Mazzy Star - Among My Swan (I don't know if Hope Sandoval is smacked out whenever she sings, but her voice has this extraordinarily narcotic drag to it, which makes it sound as if she's about to nod out.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 06:40:25 EST From: Aerchak@aol.com Subject: Joni and the birth and adoption of her child The topic of Joni's pregnancy and subseguent birth and adoption of the baby is fully discussed in the "Shadows and Light" book by Karen O'Brien, as well as the biological father's and Chuck Mitchell's roles. Also Joni's reunion with Lilauren. I wholly suggest reading this book. It is frequently available on ebay. Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 05:54:28 -0700 From: Sarah Subject: Re: Fave Joni Lines (Magdalene Laundries) Kakki, I was going to send some lines from songs that suggest to me this - what I call - lack of self-definition, but to be honest, I feel a bit icky about discussing on the internet someone's decision to have her child adopted. It was private, and none of my business. So I'm not going to say any more about it, but maybe I can send you these lines another time, in another context, as that discussion has literary merit, and might offer some insight into her poetry. Sarah At 11:54 PM -0800 02/02/2003, kakki wrote: >I never thought of her not thinking much of herself. I thought of >her as vulnerable and sensitive and questioning, but interpreted >that as typical of a highly creative person. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:56:42 -0000 From: "Lucy Hone" Subject: 10 artists/groups....NJC In a message dated 2/2/2003 4:53:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, Freddyb4@aol.com writes: > list 10 artists/groups you like, but at the end of the list you must include > that secret that you meant to take to the grave JONI (of course) but she does not count as she goes without saying.... Van Morrison James Taylor Turin Breaks Joan Baez David Gray Gillian Welch Paul Brady Tom Waits Sarah McLachlan ANY OF THE CROONERS... (sneaky but they all add up to one sound) Secret? Oh this is hard as (like SC JONI GUY) I don't have any tastes I am ashamed of but I did have the complete collection of the Incredible String Band...Yes!!!! all of them !!!! ....OH DEAR OH DEAR OH DEAR.... I played them before selling them for charity at a pop festival and got over #120 for the lot!!! they were immaculate.... a strange phenomenon of buying stuff becasue you fancy someone who liked them too and you hated them but "wanted to have something in common".... I got out of that phase!!! Lucy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 07:21:51 EST From: Aerchak@aol.com Subject: joni mitchell Taming the Tiger poster For Fauncha, A TTT poster just came on ebay. it's only a 12" by 12" and is card board. Mine is 18" by 22" and paper, but wanted to let you know. Narrow search to joni mitchell memorabilia. Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 07:22:44 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Joni & the Catholic Church NJC --- Sarah Gibb wrote: > The Catholic Church teaches that [...] that individuals can have no direct > relationship with god > but must commune via a priest, I was raised as a Catholic and I certainly don't remember that part! > Regarding healthcare costs, Saskatchewan - Joni's > home province - had > universal free hospital-based healthcare by 1946, > and generally led > the way in Canada regarding welfare provision. Joni > had her baby in > February 1965, by which time there was an > established welfare state. There were beginnings of state-covered health insurance at that time, but it was limited at first to the elderly and the very poor. If I remember this right, the "universality" aspect of it came in right around the time Kilauren was born. In the beginning, the insurance covered only hospital care. It was later expanded to cover medical (by an MD) care at 90%, where the patient was supposed to pay 10%; however most docs waived the 10% because, being paid 90% for all patients at that time was still much better than getting paid all or part by only some patients and having to go after delinquent payments. I don't know if it was the health-care that was the issue here, but the financial aspect combined with the stigma of being an unwed mother (she was unmarried while she was pregnant and when the child was born and married Chuck after the baby was born). The welfare system does not make an easy life for anyone and, Joni was struggling to get enough work to make enough money to live on. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 06:26:46 -0700 From: Sarah Subject: NJC Email from David Brown, astronaut Astronaut David Brown, who died when the shuttle exploded, kept in touch with friends and family by email during his time in space. On January 31, the day before his death, he wrote: "It's hard to believe, but I'm coming up on 16 days in space, and we land tomorrow. . . "The views of the Earth are really beautiful. If you've ever seen a space IMAX movie that's really what it looks like. What really amazes me is to see large geographic features with my own eyes. Today, I saw all of Northern Libya, the Sinai Peninsula, the whole country of Israel, and then the Red Sea. . . ". . . My most moving moment was reading a letter Ilan brought from a Holocaust survivor talking about his 7-year-old daughter who did not survive. I was stunned such a beautiful planet could harbor such bad things. It makes me want to enjoy every bit of the Earth for how great it really is. "I will make one more observation -- if I'd been born in space I know I would desire to visit the beautiful Earth more than I've ever yearned to visit space. It is a wonderful planet." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 12:30:20 +0000 From: "Tamsin Lucas" Subject: Re: Musical tastes we'll take to the grave REVEALED! NJC Meatloaf, hmmm. Now, that in turn reminds me of when I used to listen to Guns and Roses' "Appetite for Destruction" on repeat play. In my defence I was about 14 - do I get expelled for that??! > >Well, I will admit that for a few years my favourite album was Bat Out Of >Hell - and I knew every word to every song and would sing along - I was a >teenager, what can I say... > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Messenger - fast, easy and FREE! http://messenger.msn.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 06:30:44 -0700 From: Sarah Subject: Re: Joni & the Catholic Church NJC That's what confession is. You confess to a priest, not directly to god. The whole protestant/catholic schism came about precisely because of the Catholic belief that a relationship with god should be mediated. The early protestants wanted to believe they could have a direct relationship with god, bypassing the authority of the church. Sarah At 7:22 AM -0500 02/03/2003, Catherine McKay wrote: > --- Sarah Gibb wrote: > The Catholic >Church teaches that [...] that individuals can have no >direct >> relationship with god >> but must commune via a priest, > >I was raised as a Catholic and I certainly don't >remember that part! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 04:58:53 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Musical tastes we'll take to the grave REVEALED! NJC Susan wrote to me: > I am so sorry but you have totally blown your "coolness" here! OMG! I was "cool"? Why didn't anyone ever say so?? > And 13/14 is WAY too old to have been listening to the Osmonds! Do I get any credit for the fact that I was being understanding of my little brother Billy, who at the age of 8 was completely in love with Donny? He and his little friend Doug used to have contests to see who could kiss the most pinups of Donny (and Michael Jackson). I escorted them to an Osmonds concert at the Akron Rubber Bowl (really, that's what it was called!) in 1972, and literally had Billy sitting on my shoulders so he could see better when the Osmonds began to play "He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother." I think I became tearful. (This is a true story.) Also seen at the Akron Rubber Bowl that same year (previous to the Osmonds, I believe): the James Gang and Three Dog Night. (Woo.) > I was smoking dope and listening to Blue at that age and you are a > year or two younger than me - I started smoking dope at age 15, but didn't discover Joni until I was almost 19. What can I say? I had a sheltered childhood. (Btw, I will be 45 in July.) > damn I may have been on FTR by then and you were still listening to > the Osmonds!? Wow when the bubble bursts ... ;-P Oh the other hand, my grandma bought me Donny Osmond's first solo LP (along with a Roy Clarke album - ???) one xmas, and Pink Floyd's "Meddle" the next. (Unfortunately, the COVER was "Meddle" but inside was "Atom Heart Mother." Not, imo, a great PF album.) So maybe something was noticeably changing? : ) Lori NPIMH: "Crazy Horses" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 08:22:18 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC P.J. Harvey In a message dated 2/2/2003 7:40:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, kate@katebennett.com writes: > this is someone i have been meaning to but not yet listened > to > yet...so, where should i start? at the beginning? If you feel you must get a p.j.harvey, stick with "Stories From The City, Stories From The Sea". It's her only record so far that doesn't majorly suck. And from what I know of your tastes, Kate, you won't even like that one too much. But hey, it's your dime. Better to see what you can sample for free, or talk a kind soul into making you a sampler. Bob NP: Ben Harper, "I Shall Not Walk Alone" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 05:29:06 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: new joni & vinyl (a little JC) Walt wrote, of the vinyl issue: > doesnt anyone miss the city side/sea side chapters of song to a > seagull? doesnt anyone think its exciting to end a side with hejira > and start another with sharon? these subtlties are totally lost now > with cds. I agree, Walt. What about the four sides of DJRD? There were "stories" to be told with vinyl albums, and the sides were the chapters. The moods changed from side 1 to side 2, etc. Look at "Clouds": on side 1 we have "I Don't Know Where I Stand," but by side 2 it's "I Think I Understand." Okay, I'm simplifying, but yes, I really do miss the chapter effect. > and while i don't agree that ticks and pops add much Actually, I sort of like those ticks and pops, if only for the nostalgia. I don't often play my vinyl albums, but I enjoy the entire process when I do: removing the album, tilting (and flipping and tilting) it to check condition, placing it on the turntable, cleaning it, setting the needle up (fiddling with the turntable speed on those units with the strobe) ... Those days are gone, though (like the days of sifting seeds from a new bag). > at about the freakin art of the jackets? That was my initial complaint when cds first came about. I really, really miss that. I can't imagine kids displaying cd booklets on their walls the way many of us displayed album covers. And you don't walk into your friend's apartment now and see cds leaning against a crate. If you did, you'd barely notice them. I enjoy cds for their convenience, but (for me) it's simply not as exciting to buy and open and play a new cd as it was to do those things with a new LP. Things are just too pristine these days. Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 08:35:21 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: new joni & vinyl In a message dated 2/2/2003 11:30:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, walterphil@excite.com writes: > doesnt anyone think its exciting to end a side with hejira > and start another with sharon? > these subtlties are totally lost now with cds. Just curious Walt...why is that "exciting" to you? While Hejira is darn near flawless, I've always felt that Refuge & the title song should have been swapped, with Hejira being the album closer. Anyway, I actually prefer taking the whole thing in one session as opposed to getting up & flipping over an LP and ruining the mood. You do make a good point though about STAS (which I never owned on LP). It does alter the effect to combine the 2 scenes on one side. Bob NP: EmmyLou Harris, "Michaelangelo" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 21:37:41 +0800 (PHT) From: Subject: NJC - "Hero" by Zhang Yimou Anyone in the LIst watched Zhang Yimou's HERO already? Its an awesome film that will have people compare it to Ang Lee's CROUCHING TIGER, HIDDEN DRAGON. But HERO is so beautifully realized: the epic scope of the dawning of the first dynasty, the magic that have the warriors fight in the water like these insects in the water, and the use of colors. Not since Spike Lee's DO THE RIGHT THING was color used to advance the story. And I mean, colorful colors. Maggie Cheung, Tony Leung, Zhang Zi-Yi, Jet Li and the haunting score of Tan Dun. And those landscapes! Dreamlike! Joseph in Manila np: Glenn Gould's "Goldberg Variations" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 08:52:24 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC P.J. Harvey In a message dated 03/02/2003 13:23:37 GMT Standard Time, SCJoniGuy@aol.com writes: > If you feel you must get a p.j.harvey, stick with "Stories From The City, > Stories From The Sea". It's her only record so far that doesn't majorly > suck. > And from what I know of your tastes, Kate, you won't even like that one too > much. Oh Bob! I can't allow you to get away with this gross calumny!! PJ Harvey is one of the most vital, charismatic, challenging and downright talented artistes to have emerged in the last 10 years. In fact I'd go as far as to say her 90s output is streets ahead of (ahem) certain other artistes dear to my heart and those of everyone on this list. She's a terrific, visceral singer, a wonderfully original songwriter - and a cracking musician too, as I can testify from seeing her live. Plays great guitar and slinky organ on most of her albums, and can turn her hand to bass, drums & percussion and violin too! Of course you probably know Kate's taste better than mine, and *maybe* PJ won't be her cup of tea - but I wouldn't bet on that. I'd like to endorse what Debra said about Stories from the City... - it's her most immediate album. Is This Desire? is fantastic, and I reckon, Kate, one listen to its opening song, Angelene, will have you if not hooked, at least mightily impressed. I really love To Bring You My love too. And yes, don't on any account start with Rid Of Me - apart from a couple songs it's pretty heavy going. PJ Harvey is here to stay, and she is a *major* artist. There's a crunchiness to her music that's bracing in an age of such pervasive dullness, where people who are merely competent are hailed as the new Dylan (sorry, but David Gray? I just don't get it!) For her voice, think a more musical Patti Smith. While her lyrics don't have the depth and weight of Patti's best - that's hardly a disgrace is it? It's praising with faint damnation, in fact! Azeem in London NP: PJ Harvey - A Perfect Day Elise - at loud volume! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:28:58 +0200 From: Ron Greer Subject: Safe Foods, njc Hi >>Catherine wrote: >Have you ever wondered why that cow is laughing? >>bree replied >Ganga Cow? and i respond: simple really - its a dairy cow, not a meat cow!! ron ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:06:37 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC P.J. Harvey/David Gray I wrote <> And Bob replied << I think David Gray is really just Ryan Adams recording under a different name! :~) >> I first saw David Gray about 10 years ago, supporting Tori Amos, and thought he was OK then, nothing to write home about - and he could easily have been a one-man Waterboys tribute band, so completely did he ape Mike Scott's vocal mannerisms. He's an honest journeyman who got lucky after years of slogging around the circuit - and I really rejoice in that, despite the fact that I'm not a fan and don't think he's actually a particularly gifted songwriter. His seems to have been a genuinely organic rise to prominence, which is pretty bloody rare nowadays, so more power to his elbow. As to Ryan Adams, I'm not sure about him either - my Sacred Cow alert is triggered when I read some of the stuff written about him. Some of his stuff sounds like sub-Springsteen bar-room fare - like Hootie and the Blowfish with cooler PA and an unfeasibly "arranged" looking dishevelled hairstyle. HOWEVER, I love a couple of his slower songs (can't remember the titles, was one of them Mission Bell?), so I probably need to give him a fairer/fuller hearing. As for Polly Jean, I can well understand your antipathy to Rid Of Me - it sounds horrible, for which a large part of the blame can be laid at the door of anti-producer Steve Albini, who seems a rather hateful figure to me (calling a band Rapeman, as he did, is neither big nor clever). The songs aren't bad, and can be heard to better effect on the 4-track demos album. As you say, it's all a matter of personal opinion. It's just that I'm right and you're wrong... ;~) Azeem in London NP: Polly again - This Mess We're In ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 10:15:30 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC P.J. Harvey/David Gray now Ryan In a message dated Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:06:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, AzeemAK writes: > As you say, it's all a matter of personal opinion. It's > just that I'm right and you're wrong... LOL! Ain't that the way it always ends up! :~) Just remember, just because you like something doesn't mean it doesn't suck. I like lots of stuff that sucks! As for Ryan, I liked Whiskeytown before he broke out on his own. A little over-exposed at first, but appears to be over that hump. You're right about his ballads, they're awesome. I just think he has a great genuine sound, just feels good to listen to. I don't really feel the need to dig for a lot of depth, I just get off on the groove of it; as you say VERY derivative of 70's rock (though I don't hear much Bruce in there), but as a child of 70's rock I label that a very GOOD thing! David Gray, pretty much the same thing. Bob NP: EmmyLou, "Blackhawk" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:27:43 +0200 From: Ron Greer Subject: favourite top ten (or thereabouts) njc??? hi top tens for me are: rory block joni patty larkin 2nd chapter of acts billy bragg mary chapin carpenter michelle shocked sonny landreth emmylou harris gillian welch Eddi Reader Janis Joplin no mistake about rory edging out joni. i am totally besotted with rory block at the moment!!! her guitar playing is incredible - truly one of the greatest blues guitarists of our time, and her voice is the greatest i have heard. even more emotion than janis!!!! (tho not quite the same type of raw emotion). if you like music with real emotion (and why else would you be on a joni list??) check out rorys music. yes - joni is "better", but at the moment i prefer rory. remains to be seen of she stands the same test of time as joni tho'. of the rest patty larkin stands out slightly, & the rest are pretty much on a par with me. only two male singers!!! (well - 3 if you add in matthew ward from 2nd chapter of acts) as far as guilty secrets go, well, what abour Dr Hook & The Medicine Show (up til the damn awful "baby makes her blue jeans talk) i still regularly put on "freakers ball" & blast the neighbours away. natalie imbruglia's left of the middle - i really have a thing for "torn" also a local artist sonja herholdt who really is an awful bland country & western, yet somehow has a nice positive emotion in her music. most people here who know her music think im mad when i say i like her music (bad) or else identify me with one of her normal fans (even worse!!!!) ron ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:24:30 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC P.J. Harvey/David Gray now Ryan In a message dated 03/02/2003 15:15:31 GMT Standard Time, SCJoniGuy writes: > Just remember, just because you like something doesn't mean it doesn't suck. > I like lots of stuff that sucks! > > Hmmm, I must say I have trouble getting my head around that concept. Given that, by definition, something that "sucks" is no good (in the opinion of the appraiser) I don't see how you can say you like stuff that sucks - isn't it like saying "this is rubbish - I love it"? I suppose you could say it's crap and I STILL love it, but to me if I say something is rubbish I'm just saying I don't like it. Oh well, whatever, nevermind... Azeem in London NP: PJ Harvey - Horses In My Dreams (a little nod to Patti?) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:33:04 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: PJ Harvey njc (one more post and I'll shut up about her) Ah, I can't help it - the last song from Stories From The City, Stories From The Sea is playing, and it's so brilliant that I had to give it a name check. We Float is just sheer perfection: an insidious, subtle, rhythm; beautifully languid playing; an elliptical lyric, yet one that carries some real emotional weight; a vocal of amazing conviction, control and clarity. Kate, if you want to check out ONE Polly tune to gauge whether she's worthy of further investigation, make it this one! Right, I'm going to work now! Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:36:42 -0500 (EST) From: "walterphil" Subject: more joni vinyl does anyone have the quad version of court and spark? i do-haven't listened to it in a while but it seems to be differently remixed if not downright different versions i know for intance peoples parties has a definate ending and does not blend into same situation (are these not 2 of the best joni songs EVER, or what?) also notice how the side had a whistful ending then side 2 starts up with a different mood the wonderful and jaunty car on a hill. my original version of ladies and blue have wonderful matte finishes on the covers so much more rich and substantial than those cd booklets xxx valty The most personalized portal on the Web! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 10:38:49 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC P.J. Harvey/David Gray now Ryan In a message dated Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:24:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, AzeemAK writes: > Hmmm, I must say I have trouble getting my head around that > concept. Oh, you're just being too much of a highbrow for your own good, Azeem. There's lot of disco music for instance that sucked but I couldn't help but like it just for the glitz/kitsch factor. By the same token, there are some cheesy Joni covers that are so awful, they make me laugh out loud and I LOVE them. Also, there are "artists" like Jandek, The Shaggs, Wesley Willis who put out just awful stuff, yet there's a real attraction I have to them. Like trying to figure out why they tried! :~) Hope that helps. btw, how's this for synchro? I'm playing my cd's in A-B-C order, and after Harris, Emmylou comes: NP: P.J. Harvey, "Beautiful Feeling" (even though I like this CD, it's just sorta Patti Smith/Liz Phair/Kim Gordon all rolled up in a ball, so I don't see her as being much of an innovator) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 07:44:16 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Let her speak listen to what Joni has to say about the pressure to surrender her child to adoption. the reality was that Joni had no choice. "I conceived in art college at the age of 20, near the end of term," says Mitchell, 53. "The main thing at the time was to conceal it. The scandal was so intense. A daughter could do nothing more disgraceful. It ruined you in a social sense. You have no idea what the stigma was. It was like you murdered somebody." please read the entire article, it reveals so much. http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=83 You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 11:08:42 -0500 From: "Christopher Treacy" Subject: Re: joni mitchell Taming the Tiger poster As an avid collector of paper goods, especially all things Joni, I have to warn - THIS IS A FLAT. I'm very tired of people attempting to sell flats on ebay as posters (they do it ALL the time and it's SO misleading!). I'm not sure why ebay lets it go on; Lord knows they've gotten persnikety with me about things of lesser importance. Anyway, just a word for the wise. - -Chris NP: Carole King - Avenue P - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 7:21 AM Subject: joni mitchell Taming the Tiger poster > For Fauncha, > > A TTT poster just came on ebay. it's only a 12" by 12" and is card board. > Mine is 18" by 22" and paper, but wanted to let you know. Narrow search to > joni mitchell memorabilia. > > Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 11:41:58 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: PJ Harvey [was joni for the new generation] NJC In a message dated 2/3/2003 1:10:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, dsk11@bellatlantic.net writes: > I would stay away from "Rid of Me" unless you become a PJ Harvey > completist. That cd is adventurous, primal, screechy and very hard to > listen to. It's an ouch on many levels. > I'd go along with "Stories from the City, Stories from the Sea" too Kate. I had "Rid of Me", and used to say it was the worse CD in my collection. Every time P.J. was mentioned on the list, I would bring up my total dislike for her music. I tried to give the CD away to anyone on the list who wanted it. Debra finally emailed me for a trade. "Stories...." was so totally different from "Rid of Me." I'm still not a fan of P.J.'s, but at least Debra showed me the light. Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 11:54:39 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Musical tastes REVEALED! NJC Well, Fred, the fact is I've always liked tuba music. The more tubas the merrier, as far as I'm concerned. Tubas always sound happy or at least funny to me. When I was in grade school I signed up to take tuba lessons. One afternoon in early September I was issued a tuba by the music department and walked from school blowing great big tuba farts all the way home. My mother hated the whole idea and wouldn't let me play the tuba inside the house, so I had to practice on the back porch. That worked out okay for most of September and October, but by November my lips were freezing to the mouthpiece, and I gave it up. Tubas still make me smile, though. Welcome, Fred! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 12:20:34 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Reagan - HIV NJC >I am just flabbergasted! I can't believe the narrow-mindedness and >stubborness Bree! I no more stubborn than the next guy...Guz I just don't believe in rewriting history to suit ones own political views. I only recently had this discussion in real life, I actually do see people outside of cyber space LOL! I can relate here...everything I do is through space...it's much better this way. No mess..no fuss. > Like you AND others, I have no concrete proof - that's right YOU DON"T either.However, I will never forget his debate, where he went off on some tangent in response to a question. He started talking about driving in a car and going up the coast and it had absolutely NO relevance, yet most of America sat there nodding like they understood. I don't remember this..but I do take your word for it. Have you never lost your train of thought? There have been times I have been driving and my mind wanders and I don't remember how I got from point A to B. It's just all of a sudden I am at point B. (I know this is dangerous..but it has happened on more than one occasion with me) Much in that "Chauncy Gardner" kind of way. Many, including myself, recognized his illness right then and there. Please see "Being There"with Peter Sellers! I have..and I like this movie. A classic. I think one of the most despictable things done in this country AND dangerous was to allow him to pursue and run a second term, and this has nothing to do with his politics. I do believe he was propped up and put in place. "WELL...HERE SHE GOES AGAIN." We just disagree. I don't think it is possible propping up a demented or delusional person. ESPECIALLY...when that person is the prez. A person with dementia even in the beginning stages would crumble under the pressure. >Talk about liberal and pacifists being dreamers. What ever you're on - may >I have some please?! ;-)Does anyone want to know how I really feel? >LOL!Still ... Peace,Susan--- And right-wingers are supposed to hate and be mean spirited. As much as I disliked Clinton..I never said I hated him. Just green tea. Take care... Bree Bree wrote: > There have been several people from Reagan's inner circle and some that were > not from his inner circle..let's see.. speechwriter Peggy Noonan being one.. > unequivocally say the Reagan DID NOT exhibit any dementia type behavior > while in office. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 09:39:48 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: Safe Foods, njc Had to jump in a clarify some things for folks interested in this topic. The majority of compost added to organic (OG) farm soil is not of animal origin. Most is composted plant matter. Most of the manure spread on land in the U.S. (I can't speak for other countries) is used by conventional farmers. And whereas OG farmers are required to use only composted manure, conventional farmers are allowed to spray raw manure (as well as human sewage and other industrial farm waste products). You'll find many organizations that promote organic food and growing practices also take initiative to combat factory farming. It's true organic food cannot be guaranteed to be 100% pesticide/hormone/bacteria free. OG practices help minimize residue (through the composting process and the soil on an OG farm which is a far livelier digester of materials than on conventional farms). Eating organic doesn't support factory farming by any means - eating lower on the food chain, now that's something we (Americans anyway) could stand to work on. Jenny At 9:31 AM -0500 02/02/2003, Catherine McKay wrote: >And, if you want to be really paranoid about it, as I >sometimes am, even the organically grown stuff grows >in soil that has no doubt been subjected to >contamination of some kind, and is rained on by acid >rain. Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 12:46:33 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Re: Reagan - HIV NJC Well, I'll say it, I hate the Clintons. I might add that Billy refused to release any medical records on himself. His choice, but why? What was he hiding? One more note my brother (who is as liberal as Guz) said it would not have been possible to prop up a person with dementia, and this is his field of study. He just says Reagan was an ass. I still love my brother, and he loves me, but we are complete political opposites. Makes for wonderful family get together. I also call him once a week so we can discuss the week in politics. So you can love someone with different views. What kind of sister would I be if I stopped loving my brother just because he's wrong :) Kasey And right-wingers are supposed to hate and be mean spirited. As much as I disliked Clinton..I never said I hated him. Just green tea. Take care... BreeGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 11:59:33 -0700 From: Sarah Subject: Re: Safe Foods, njc Jenny, organic farmers in America and Europe do use animal manure, blood and bone products. For vegans, eating organic does tend to mean supporting factory farming. That's certainly the view of most, if not all, the vegans I know. I eat organic myself, but it's a worry. Sarah At 9:39 AM -0800 02/03/2003, Jenny Goodspeed wrote: >Had to jump in a clarify some things for folks >interested in this topic. The majority of compost >added to organic (OG) farm soil is not of animal >origin. Most is composted plant matter. > > Eating organic doesn't support factory farming by any >means ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 13:01:24 -0500 From: "Jerry Notaro" Subject: RE: Reagan - HIV NJC - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of kasey simpson Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 1:47 PM To: Bree Mcdonough; jmdl Subject: Re: Reagan - HIV NJC Well, I'll say it, I hate the Clintons. Bree Gee. What a surprise. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:14:46 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Reagan - HIV NJC Silence=Death ... who do you think inspired that movement? Talk about rewriting history! Geez! ACTUP started strictly base on Regan's policies and what a great movement they were! Heroes! Bree wrote: > I no more stubborn than the next guy...Guz I just don't believe in > rewriting history to suit ones own political views. > > > Bree wrote: > I don't remember this..but I do take your word for it. Have you never lost > your train of thought? There have been times I have been driving and my > mind wanders and I don't remember how I got from point A to B. It's just > all of a sudden I am at point B. (I know this is dangerous..but it has > happened on more than one occasion with me) > It was debate for President of the United States Bree! If this had been Clinton - I just wonder! He wasn't driving, he was in a debate for leadership of the free world! It was so blatant, I think no one said a word out of fear - on both sides of the aisle. I think they felt it was a matter of national security not to let on about his condition - and they may have been right! > I wrote: > Much in that "Chauncy Gardner" kind of way. Many, including myself, > recognized his illness right then and there. Please see "Being There"with > Peter Sellers! > Bree wrote: > I have..and I like this movie. A classic. I love this movie but there are parallels with how Regan was treated during his term. I will ALWAYS believe they knew and they will never tell you they did. And one more thing concerning the survey you mentioned in a previous post, if you read my post I said long term his legacy will not survive and a legacy is not a populariity contest. I think it just proves how anxious one is too defend ones position, rather than see another perspective. He could not utter the word AIDS and when he did it made national news and is well documented, what a shame - what a sell out! > > > Bree wrote: > "WELL...HERE SHE GOES AGAIN." We just disagree. I don't think it is > possible propping up a demented or delusional person. ESPECIALLY...when > that person is the prez. A person with dementia even in the beginning > stages would crumble under the pressure. OMG Bree you're sounding just like him now! Ewwwww! > >Talk about liberal and pacifists being dreamers. What ever you're on - may > >I have some please?! ;-)Does anyone want to know how I really feel? > >LOL!Still ... Peace,Susan--- > Bree wrote: > And right-wingers are supposed to hate and be mean spirited. As much as I > disliked Clinton..I never said I hated him. Just green tea. > Well you never had to Bree - frankly I don't care if you did. And if the shoe fits Bree - yes I think they are mean-spirited and hate mongers and intolerant and hawks. That's my opinion. Sorry I just don't have one of those articles you all love to link us to to present your slanted side, just watch "And the Band Played On." The struggle goes on as I lost another one this week to AIDS. And I haven't even begun to discuss the "other" AIDS IMHO - Hepatitis C. I know about that one from experience. Boy that's a silent epidemic if ever i saw one. Take care of yourselves and eachother. Peace, Susan Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 12:36:37 -0700 From: Sarah Subject: Re: Reagan - HIV NJC Aren't the old left-versus-right labels a bit tired nowadays? The important distinction now is conservative versus radical or progressive. The left in America is increasingly coming to be the conservative faction. Regardless of which side of the old fence people come from, they can still be progressives. But this means ditching sacred cows - ideology - and trying to act according to the facts, and reason. Not all liberals are pacifists, not all pacifists are liberals, not all right-wingers are mean-spirited hatemongers or intolerant hawks. In fact, most of the extreme right is against the war with Iraq. So these labels are pretty useless in describing positions nowadays, IMO. Sarah At 10:14 AM -0800 02/03/2003, Susan Guzzi wrote: >And if the shoe fits Bree - yes I >think they are mean-spirited and hate mongers and intolerant and >hawks. That's my opinion. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #87 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)