From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #72 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, January 29 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 072 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- E-mail Interception NJC [David Marine ] Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #69 njc [colin ] Re: Joni's gay fans njc [colin ] Re: Joni's gay fans????NJC [colin ] Re: E-mail Interception NJC ["kakki" ] Mags, your post in #70 NJC ["Lucy Hone" ] Re: Why I don't like tuna.... NJC [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: Why I don't like tuna.... NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: Today in History: January 28 [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Down To You [Ron Greer ] Re: Why I don't like tuna.... NJC ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Joni's gay fans NJC ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Mags, your post in #70 NJC [Mags N Brei ] Re: Mags, your post in #70 NJC ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Why I don't like tuna.... NJC [Mags N Brei ] RE: Joni's gay fans???? ["J.David Sapp" ] RE: Why I don't like tuna.... NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Good article on free will ["blonde in the bleachers" ] RE: David Crosby-CPR concert now NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Joni's gay fans and other things that have to do with the JMDL (NJC) ["Lori Fye" ] Evolving the list to a message board NJC [BRIANASYMES@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 00:28:43 -0800 From: David Marine Subject: E-mail Interception NJC This is the most frightening thing I have heard in a long time, Kakki. Can one be legally executed for having such emails, or merely fired? Is gay content considered grounds for dismissal? David Kakki said: This issue has come up before a few times. Here is what I haven't seen addressed this go around (but it has been addressed in the past here) - a number of people who subscribed to the list do so through their work email. I don't know about other countries, but it is fairly standard practice in the U.S. for employers to monitor employee email accounts. You can debate whether that is fair or not until the cows come home - I don't like it, but on the other hand, company email legally is considered official company property and correspondence and can be subpoened in lawsuits. I don't know about the latest email filtering devices, but in the past, when a subpoena is issued for email, the company usually has to hand over the entire back-up tape, or else go through weeks of labor and great expense to print out and sort through 1000s of emails to find the responsive ones. Companies regularly employ certain software to screen through the email to find sexual or other content. This happened at my old law firm. They did a surprise run through and captured all email that had certain keywords in it. I don't subscribe from work but someone had sent me an email there titled "Joni Photos" of some concert pics and that one was captured! Think if your company has been hit with a sexual harassment suit (which according to all the sensitivity training mandatory at many companies) can include ANYTHING in the workplace that mentions sex. They subpoena the emails and find a load of incoming that has sexual content. No matter what the context or circumstance, a sharp plaintiff lawyer may use those emails as proof that the company is not being vigilant about keeping it out of the work place. Maybe there are others on the list who work for government agencies, or the FBI or the White House - ya never know. Many of the political posts, if screened, (which in government and government contractor firms they surely are) could put those listmembers in an awkward position. So, you can say, well, don't subscribe from work or maybe those people will say it's best to subscribe to JC-only to avoid any potentially problematic email in the work account inbox. I'm just trying to show another valid reason why some people have a problem with certain content. It's not neccesarily because they don't like the content or just like to gripe. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 08:40:28 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #69 njc BRYAN8847@aol.com wrote: >> >> > >I don't know how this discussion started and I hesitate to jump into the middle of it without reading the entire thread...but, my two-cents-worth is: sexual orientation is not a result of environmental factors. This is just my experience talking, and my feelings: how could feelings so deep and powerful (to the core, baby) be the result of environmental factors? It has go to beyond that. > This is how I feel. > >And anyway, as I've long said .... "if you're looking for a cause, then you're looking for a cure." > yes that is what bothers me about tion. no one ever asks 'why are you heterosexual'. > I really don't care what the "cause" is. I am perfectly happy as I am and don't need to the reason or need to prove anything about it... > good. that is laos how i feell. >though I realize others feel differently, and perhaps for good reasons. > >Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 08:43:30 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Joni's gay fans njc >Bruce wrote > >PS. I don't believe that TRAGIC is the essential component that makes for a >gay female icon. > I think you are right. I wouldn't describe Mideler as Tragic nor Striesand( the latter isn't my cup of tea) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 08:46:57 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Joni's gay fans????NJC vince wrote: > Does Joni actually have a preponderance of gay fans? > I don't think so, i think we are the minority by far. I think what has happened here recently is that those of us who are gay have been writing a fair bit and now the non gays are thinking'wow, so many gays here'. A bit like areas of Britain when a small number of immigrnats arrive and people start saying'we are being taken over'. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 00:58:15 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: E-mail Interception NJC Hi David, you wrote: > This is the most frightening thing I have heard in a long time, Kakki. Can > one be legally executed for having such emails, or merely fired? Is gay > content considered grounds for dismissal? It is kind of frightening, but I think the law across the U.S. for awhile now has upheld the employer's right to read and monitor employee email and also to fire an employee if they break the rules. My former law firm was very liberal politically (believe me, the three Republicans who worked there were deeply closeted ;-) yet wanted to protect themselves from any liability arising from email on their network. They warned everyone several times that the email could be monitored at anytime before they started doing it. They also had employment discrimination (sex, religious, ethnic) sensitivity training which was mandatory for all employees to attend on an annual basis. Their bottom line policy was that no one should speak or write about anything or place any kind of book or photo on their desk that could be construed as harrasing or offensive and it was best not to bring up a subject at all. Literally, we were told it was a risk to, for example, ask someone innocently if they were Irish or Jewish or discuss religion in front of them or flatter them on their appearance or talk about sex. I think it is sad that we have become such a fascist society in this respect, but that has been the trend for awhile now. Perhaps the trend of the laws in California particularly have led to this hyperalertness - I don't know. I know the firm did have a number of harassment/discrimination complaints from employees that would blow reasonable people's minds. What was even scarier to me was to learn that the law had evolved to where ALL email could be subpoened en masse without editing! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 10:05:35 -0000 From: "Lucy Hone" Subject: Mags, your post in #70 NJC Mags, have just read your reply to Chris about the failure of some of us (and me included) to put NJC on our mails.........and wanted to say how wonderful and balanced, and beautifully you argued the point for tolerance and unity between the Joni Onlies and the rest of us. We are subscribed to this site for the swapping of ideas and Joni thoughts and discussion. Like any community there are those who want to only see what applies to them and their interests and then there are those who maybe want to tag in other stuff. I don't doubt that the Joni Onlies have rounded views and are interested in all sorts of topics but care not to share them with the rest. May I make an analagy........ I had a friend (when I was 8) who liked stamp collecting...I did too..... but she would never show me her stamp album, nor do any swaps.... We would talk for hours about stamps from around the world and she would point out, from the Stanley Gibbons book, some of the stamps she had.... I would have killed for some of the San Marino fishes!!! And stamps were the only thing that we had in common.. I felt in awe of her knowledge and dedication and singleminded interest... We went to different schools at 11 and lost touch a bit. Then one day (we were about 15 )we met up and had a chat, as you do, and she asked me was I still collecting stamps. I had to admit that "no I wasn't" and I asked her was she? "Lucy I never did.... that is why I never showed you my collection" I was a bit dumbfounded as I felt I had wasted so much time (all that way back) wondering how she couldn't share this magnificent album with the world.....and it was all because she had nothing to share... just a phantom album full of non-existant stamps, that existed in some fantasy world where knowledge was king but that was all, no heart to it.... Maybe the Joni Onlys are a bit like that? and please note the word MAYBE. I cannot believe that they are that narrow... they are passionate about Joni and her music but maybe don't want to share anything beyond that....WE must try harder to NJC our mails to avoid further rage from across the mail divide... COURT AND SPARK 30 years old....... WOW.... have to say I cannot pick a favourite from the album. happy Birthday Court and Spark.... Lucy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 04:49:05 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Why I don't like tuna.... NJC Hell, I liked your post about liking tuna being comparable to sexual desires - who cares where they come from? - they're here, enjoy them. Maybe we should stop saying "most heterosexuals are. . ." , "most gays prefer. . .", "women usually like. . ." , "men are never able to. . ." and instead, when it comes to sex, just say -- "I like. I prefer. I desire. How about you?" I read recently that researchers have discovered a new sexual dysfunction of women, requiring a Viagra-like drug, and when you read the "symptoms", they read like any ordinary list of feelings that a woman, or a man, might have from time to time throughout their lives, maybe for a month, maybe for 30 years. Suddenly, we need medication so that we all have the same, strong, regular orgasms, erect enough penises, hard enough nipples, wet enough plumbing. Soon, it'll be drugs to make sure we only want sex at the weekends, to ensure a more productive workforce. Vive la diffirence! say I. Sarah From: "hell" I don't like tuna - in fact I hate tuna. The slightest smell makes me physically ill, and a decent whiff will have me retching uncontrollably. I was brought up to like tuna, and the rest of my family like tuna, so it can't be environment OR genes? Maybe it's completely inexplicable, and there's no reason "why" - it just is? To me the argument about why someone is gay makes about as much sense as what I've just written above. Does there have to be a reason? And why is everyone so determined to FIND a reason? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 06:48:03 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Why I don't like tuna.... NJC --- hell wrote: > I don't like tuna - - in fact I hate tuna. The > slightest smell makes me > physically ill, and a decent whiff will have me > retching uncontrollably. I > was brought up to like tuna, and the rest of my > family like tuna, so it can't > be environment OR genes? Maybe it's completely > inexplicable, and there's no > reason "why" - it just is? > > To me the argument about why someone is gay makes > about as much sense as what > I've just written above. You don't like tuna? What's the matter with you? (Y'know, it could be a recessive gene.) I like tuna. But not with tomatoes. Fish should never be eaten with tomatoes. Eck. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 07:05:42 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: E-mail Interception NJC --- kakki wrote: > It is kind of frightening, but I think the law > across the U.S. for awhile > now has upheld the employer's right to read and > monitor employee email and > also to fire an employee if they break the rules. ... They warned > everyone several times > that the email could be monitored at anytime before > they started doing it. > They also had employment discrimination (sex, > religious, ethnic) sensitivity > training which was mandatory for all employees to > attend on an annual basis. > Their bottom line policy was that no one should > speak or write about > anything or place any kind of book or photo on their > desk that could be > construed as harrasing or offensive and it was best > not to bring up a > subject at all. Literally, we were told it was a > risk to, for example, ask > someone innocently if they were Irish or Jewish or > discuss religion in front > of them or flatter them on their appearance or talk > about sex. I think it > is sad that we have become such a fascist society in > this respect, but that > has been the trend for awhile now. We've had this same training at work. It does open some people's minds to the possibility that some of what they might think is OK to joke about can be offensive to others, and it's fine to sensitize people to that - at the very least, they become aware that THE world isn't necessarily THEIR world - not everyone thinks the same way about things. I understand the point about the e-mails. You're not supposed to use "company" time for personal use, which includes personal phones calls and so on. The content is probably less important when you come right down to it, but that's the stuff that can cause great embarassment to your employer for a variety of reasons. Most reasonable employers aren't going to say you can NEVER have personal phone calls and anyone with a brain realizes that no one is "on" all the time as far as work is concerned (or anything else for that matter - people just aren't built that way). We have an agreement that pops up on our desktop once a week when we log on at work reminding us about our policy on use of e-mail and IT. Most people just click to say they agree without reading the thing (what else is new?) When you're first hired, you have to sign a paper version of this thing, and, if I'm not mistaken, they may make us sign one of these hard copies once a year as well. Even though I understand the logic of this, one of the things that bothers me about this is, what if someone, out of sheer maliciousness, sent you something by e-mail, like something really pornographic? You have no control over this and yet you might possibly be blamed for it. Anyone can look up people's e-mail addresses from our website, so the potential for spamming is great (although there are filters of some kind). I get the odd e-mail from HR companies trying to sell me on their temp services. I delete these without reading. But that's just the tip of the iceberg. I like to think that the Powers That Be would check further and come to the conclusion that you hadn't invited the malicious e-mail and that it was sent to you with your solicitation, but I don't trust the Ps that B - most people, no matter how high up the food chain they are, seem to be pretty literal-minded about applying the rules, which is probably why we have them to begin with. If we all had "common" sense and we all respected one another, we wouldn't need rules - right? I have no idea what I'm talking about, so I'm getting out now. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 07:56:37 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Today in History: January 28 In a message dated 1/28/2003 10:51:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, magsnbrei@yahoo.com writes: > I love Court and Spark and cannot believe that it is thirty > years old! But it's not...1974 to 2003...it's 29, just like you, Sweet Pea! :~* Bob NP: Golden Smog, "Williamton Angel" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 17:41:21 +0200 From: Ron Greer Subject: Down To You hi >>>joan wrote >>>>>>You go down to the pick up station craving warmth and beauty. You settle for less than fascination, a few drinks later you're not so choosy. >>>>>>bob took 30 years to respond >>>>>>but the line above always bugs me a little. "Less than fascination" would signify that that the person is already going to compromise in regards to who they pick up, then the second half of the couplet pretty much says the same thing. I suppose it's saying that after a couple more drinks the standards have gotten even lower than they were to begin with, it just has always sounded a tad awkward to me. actually, i think the complete line(s?) is a stunner. life changingly powerful if one really, really takes it to heart. theres that craving for warmth & beauty there deep down inside of pretty much everyone. it drives people to many different things. some people go to church. some people go to nature. some people listen to joni, some sing themselves, some play music, and some try to fill the gap with casual sex!!! in the specific situation joni is pointing out how low the person has already sunk. trying to fill the craving for truth and beauty with a pick up, with less than fascination for the person being picked up. then after a couple of drinks even those standards have fallen away. instead of looking for someone with at least some vague form of attraction, anything will do. the entire song speaks incredibly strongly of isolation and loneliness, in both the lyrics, the singing, and the instrumentation. this particular line is just so unbelievably powerful in its depiction of how a chronically lonely person will settle for any kind of contact, no matter how superficial. it also depicts the fact that that lonely person is oh so often responsible for their own loneliness. they have fallen into the trap, unable to break out and fulfill that craving for warmth & beauty. lost the ability to try, lost the confidence required to break out, yet never lost that craving. just settled for trying to fill it with something else. think about it. meditate on it. start to feel it. the line is anything but clumsy. it is just sheer brilliance. and while it may not in particular apply to you (the general you - not bob specifically) getting a grasp on the depth of emotion behind the line will still be a life changing experience in understanding and empathising with people who are in that situation. so much of joni's music and lyrics depends on empathy. if you really want to get it, feel it. I am really very bad at understanding lyrics and what they mean. the emotion and feeling behind it is the critical issue. I m sitting here full of tears, totally fragile and emotional trying to convey the beauty that i see in those lines, but i just cant do it... damn, what an artist that joni is. there are lots of other fine writers but *no one* can pack as much depth and emotion into a few seemingly simple words. & then she still makes it sound so damned good on top of that... ron ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 08:01:37 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Why I don't like tuna.... NJC You know I can't resist this ... What kinda lesbian doesn't like TUNA???? ; ) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 11:05:47 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Down To You In a message dated 1/29/2003 10:41:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, greerr@rav.co.za writes: > the line is anything but > clumsy. it is just sheer brilliance. Thanks Ron & Lori for your insights...it does make much more sense when put in the context of the whole. Also Ron, your post brought out an interesting point...in "Down To You" the protagonist is craving WARMTH & beauty, not TRUTH & beauty, as Joni is to define a couple records later in "Black Crow"(Of course she originally wrote 'love & music' but has always to my recall substituted 'Truth & Beauty' in its stead. So in the first case, there is no truth, only the despair & loneliness which seeks only warmth. But there certainly are similarities in the 2 songs. Both people are swooping down looking for something shiny... And I totally agree about the overall brilliance of "Down To You"...like P.M. Dawn sings..."now come the images, so many images...". Bumping against a stranger and you both apologize, compared to the lovers that look so high. And that great observation "Everything comes & goes, Pleasure moves on too early and trouble leaves too slow". It's a very moving song, certainly not casual listening. As would be expected from a song of such personal intensity, it hasn't been covered much. Lydia van Dam Group turns in an outstanding version on their outstanding Joni trib CD, and in one of the more bizarre recordings Colloseum II does a prog-rock version that loses most of the lyrical poignance but is very interesting & unique musically. Bob NP: The Goo Goo Dolls, "So Long" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 08:32:55 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Joni Fans - NJC Craig (with whom I had dinner and some great discussion in Austin in 1998 - god that was fun!) wrote: > There are gay and straight people on this list! And bisexual and perhaps transgendered too. > Crap and I watched the State of the Union! I listened to it from another room until I couldn't stand to hear GW say "nucular" one more time (and so I didn't hear much of the speech). How is it that Laura has never succeeded in correcting him? Or - horrors! - did she teach her former students to pronounce it that way??? > Joni Rules! Indeed! Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 08:34:47 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Joni's gay fans NJC > In that sense, the word tragic fits Judy Garland, for example, quite > well. Judy Garland was one of my very first loves. (Patty Duke was another.) I was very young but still heartbroken when she died, and I miss Judy to this day. There will never be another like her. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 08:36:18 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: Mags, your post in #70 NJC Lucy wrote: <<>> Lucy! oh wonderful writer you are...I loved the stamp story...good one that. I appreciate hearing your thoughts on NJC versus the Joni only. I need to take this opportunity to reiterate, Im not passing judgement on those who do not wish to receive NJC mail. Part of my reason for writing was that I did not understand the level of anger in 'some' of the mails coming back this way in that they did seem to be a little more angry than I was comfortable with. That said, Im not there on that side of the fence receiving the mail they dont want, so I dont know what it's like or how much of the NJC mail they actually do get. Maybe it's a lot more than we think and they are being incredibly tolerant. I dont know. Again, I respect their decision to be on the Joni only list for whatever reason, and I dont even need to know why. I think Ive said enough about this for the time being. Thanks for hearing me :-) and then you wrote: <<>>. I agree, it IS difficult to choose just one, which is why I cant ;-) I like so many of her songs that move me to the core and others...well not as much . Often depends on my mood and what is going on at the time. Mags. You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 08:44:05 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Mags, your post in #70 NJC Mags wrote, of the "Joni-onlies": > I dont know what it's like or how much of the NJC mail they actually > do get. Maybe it's a lot more than we think and they are being > incredibly tolerant. Have a look here and decide for yourself: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni/ Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 08:44:51 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: Why I don't like tuna.... NJC hell wrote: <<>> could it be that people who are "uncomfortable" read: homophobic need to know why/who/how/what in order to assuage the questions in their own mind? Just a thought. my radar goes up whenever someone doth protest too much ;-) Mags...who just ate pasta with tuna .. sorry Hell ;-)) You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 11:04:49 -0600 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: RE: Joni's gay fans???? I am a gay man but I would not presume to speak for all of us - but I believe the following lyric endeared us to Joan: "Hanging on your boom-boom-pachyderm" - isn't that the essence of gay male sexuality? :~) peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 11:44:42 -0500 From: "Christopher Treacy" Subject: Re: Joni's gay fans???? Why, YES, David - that lyric has always held a special place in my pachyderm...I mean my heart (lol...whoops). - -Chris, starting his day several hours too late. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "J.David Sapp" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 12:04 PM Subject: RE: Joni's gay fans???? > I am a gay man but I would not presume to speak for all of us - but I > believe the following lyric endeared us to Joan: > > "Hanging on your boom-boom-pachyderm" - isn't that the essence of gay male > sexuality? :~) > > peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 09:03:37 -0800 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Crosby Show (NJC) Just to echo a few of Kate B's comments - before a show performers are typically stressed. I see this (almost) every month at my concert series. Especially if it is a performer's first gig at a particular venue and/or for a particular promoter. Some who have come across very uptight before the show turn into party animals afterwards. :) - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 14:04:55 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Why I don't like tuna.... NJC i emphatically agree, catherine. tomatoes are such rebels! some foods combined with tomatoes will be delicious yet others will profoundly distress me. wallyK, quite on the fence when it comes to tomatoes. - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Catherine McKay Enviado el: Miercoles, 29 de Enero de 2003 08:48 a.m. Para: hell; JMDL CC: BRYAN8847@aol.com Asunto: Re: Why I don't like tuna.... NJC I like tuna. But not with tomatoes. Fish should never be eaten with tomatoes. Eck. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 14:09:08 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Joni's gay fans???? baby, for quite a few of us would be you the key won't fit the door. wallyK, ouch! - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de J.David Sapp Enviado el: Miircoles, 29 de Enero de 2003 02:05 p.m. Para: joni@smoe.org Asunto: RE: Joni's gay fans???? I am a gay man but I would not presume to speak for all of us - but I believe the following lyric endeared us to Joan: "Hanging on your boom-boom-pachyderm" - isn't that the essence of gay male sexuality? :~) peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 14:10:51 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Why I don't like tuna.... NJC indeed, lori. hell has been acting strange as of late. wallyK - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Lori Fye Enviado el: Miircoles, 29 de Enero de 2003 01:02 p.m. Para: hell; JMDL Asunto: Re: Why I don't like tuna.... NJC You know I can't resist this ... What kinda lesbian doesn't like TUNA???? ; ) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 09:31:16 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Upcoming trip to New Orleans (NJC) A little tushy-bird asked me to post this again ... _____________ First, I want to extend my heartfelt thanks to everyone from this list who has contributed to fight HIV and AIDS in the Washington DC area! The fabulous, generous JMDL family has donated $735!! And now ... I want to invite everyone to ... New Orleans! (Yes, one more time - Paz, do you think you can stand it??) In about 2 1/2 weeks, I'll be there to run the Mardi Gras Marathon (http://www.mardigrasmarathon.com). Several listers have expressed an interest in meeting up to share hugs and hurricanes. I'll be arriving Feb 13 and departing Feb 18. I plan to spend most of Friday, Feb 14 in Biloxi Mississippi, but I'll be back later that day. The marathon will start at 7 am on Sunday, Feb 16. It begins and ends at the Superdome. See you in New Orleans? Lori, who has raised $4,240 so far! ~ http://lrfye.lunarpages.com ~ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 11:39:15 -0600 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: Re: Upcoming trip to New Orleans (NJC) I'll be there Lori and I have a room reserved - if anyone would like to share please feel free to contact me off list. Donna B. >>> "Lori Fye" 01/29/03 11:31AM >>> A little tushy-bird asked me to post this again ... _____________ First, I want to extend my heartfelt thanks to everyone from this list who has contributed to fight HIV and AIDS in the Washington DC area! The fabulous, generous JMDL family has donated $735!! And now ... I want to invite everyone to ... New Orleans! (Yes, one more time - Paz, do you think you can stand it??) In about 2 1/2 weeks, I'll be there to run the Mardi Gras Marathon (http://www.mardigrasmarathon.com). Several listers have expressed an interest in meeting up to share hugs and hurricanes. I'll be arriving Feb 13 and departing Feb 18. I plan to spend most of Friday, Feb 14 in Biloxi Mississippi, but I'll be back later that day. The marathon will start at 7 am on Sunday, Feb 16. It begins and ends at the Superdome. See you in New Orleans? Lori, who has raised $4,240 so far! ~ http://lrfye.lunarpages.com ~ This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 12:35:18 -0500 From: Subject: Re: RE: the GAY card Dear HEATHER: Viva la evolution! xxx MICHAEL > Finally! A good, logical assessment. > > Heather - an evolved lover of Joni's music ;-) > ________________ > P.S. I have to agree with Andrew: most gay people I know > are either indifferent to Joni or openly contemptuous -- just > like most straight people I know. (sigh) As always, I'm convinced > that those of us who love her so much (male of female, > gay or straight, white or black or any other colour) are simply more > highly evolved. > > ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 12:39:15 -0500 From: "blonde in the bleachers" Subject: Re: Good article on free will PLEASE LABEL NJC!! SERIOUSLY IT IS GETTING RIDICULOUS! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 09:45:04 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: njc disscussions njc >> I must say that Les is the most hands-off and liberal listowner I've experienced compared to other lists I've been on.<< me too & i just feel the need to say a big huge gigantic thank you to les for that you do & all that you allow... much gratitude to you les for all this ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 09:49:59 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: David Crosby-CPR concert now NJC lol bob... >>although that is NO EXCUSE to be mean to my JMDL buds. (I haven't been this pissed off since Sting dissed Paz's son!) - --Bob<< ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 13:28:43 -0500 From: "blonde in the bleachers" Subject: Re: Joni's gay fans and other things that have to do with the JMDL Andrew you have no idea what being a bitch is, and you are lucky you can't see the finger getting exercise at this moment. First off, this whole discussion about Joni's gay fans is self-serving and quite boring, great she has homosexual fans, lets move on to another topic. Laurent said something to the effect that "gay people are more educated about the arts" which I find to be a bunch of bullshit. God forbid if someone came on this list and said something derogatory about gay people, like "heteros are way more educated about sports than all those gay people drinking herbal tea and listening to their Cher albums." The whole NJC was never really that big of an issue until a bunch of people decided that they could post crap like transexual blahbity blah and shit about Bush, Israel, The Arab World etc...I have no problem with people who want to express their views about politics just don't do it on this list, go to a list more specific to your need to spout your rhetoric. I am sure as hell not going to post everysingle item I write as "JC" when this is the "JMDL". "ooooh it is easy to delete it" It is just as easy to put NJC in the subject line. >From: Little Bird >Reply-To: Little Bird >To: vince , joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: Joni's gay fans???? >Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:31:05 -0800 (PST) > > > Not to say that the discussion wasn't interesting >but all anyone offer as to the truth of the >proposition is how it seems to them by encountering >people in here, and that does not make a valid >foundation for conjecture.> > >...Which is precisely what the conversation was about. >No one was saying they knew the truth or had all the >answers. In fact, I made it clear that it was just for >the sake of discussion, and it was a fun discussion at >that. > >And all this talk about JC and NJC...I really don't >understand what all the fuss is about, frankly, and >I'm an NJC subscriber. I delete about 30% of the posts >that ARE about Joni because I don't enjoy the >particular subject. Are we going to segregate >ourselves into little sealed off corners of the list >and filter out ideas we don't want to hear about, >endlessly labelling and categorizing? "Oh, sorry I >belong to the Court & Spark Only list" -"Well I belong >to the 'Hejira/Travelogue version' digest. Please >refrain from posting about the original Hejira. It >really makes me mad." > >I thought such histrionics were reserved for acting >school flunkees. > >I don't know about the rest of you but living in a >vacuum is too grey and dusty for my liking. If you >don't like it, delete it. The sun will rise the next >day. Life will go on. And your finger may benefit from >the exercise. > >Sorry I'm being a bitch. But I am. (At least tonight) > >-Andrew >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. >http://mailplus.yahoo.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 19:01:05 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Joni's gay fans and other things that have to do with the JMDL NJC blonde in the bleachers wrote: >Andrew you have no idea what being a bitch is, and you are lucky you >can't see the finger getting exercise at this moment. > >First off, this whole discussion about Joni's gay fans is self-serving >and quite boring, great she has homosexual fans, lets move on to another >topic. > why? because you say so? It was at least JC. > Laurent said something to the effect that "gay people are more >educated about the arts" which I find to be a bunch of bullshit. God >forbid if someone came on this list and said something derogatory about >gay people, like "heteros are way more educated about sports than all >those gay people drinking herbal tea and listening to their Cher >albums." > Far worse things have been said about gays on this list. > The whole NJC was never really that big of an issue until a >bunch of people decided that they could post crap like transexual >blahbity blah and shit about Bush, Israel, The Arab World etc...I have no >problem with people who want to express their views about politics just >don't do it on this list, > you quite obviously do have a problem. It is one thing to object to NJC not being labelled, it should be. But to dismiss people's lives and views as crap and shit is plain arrogant and rude. > go to a list more specific to your need to >spout your rhetoric. > that has already beene sorted out. I am sure people are going to be very much more aware of the NJC label now. we don't have to go anywhere esle, no matter how you wish we would. > I am sure as hell not going to post everysingle >item I write as "JC" when this is the "JMDL". > I agree. it is not a good idea. > >"ooooh it is easy to delete it" It is just as easy to put NJC in the >subject line. > > yes it is and hopefully the lack of it will be much less now. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 12:11:58 -0700 From: Les Irvin Subject: Those errant posters At 1/29/2003 11:28 AM, blonde in the bleachers wrote: >First off, this whole discussion about Joni's gay fans is self-serving >and quite boring, > >The whole NJC was never really that big of an issue until a >bunch of people decided that they could post crap like transexual >blahbity blah and shit about Bush, Israel, The Arab World etc Well, you know what they say, "One man's trash is another man's treasure". First of all, this IS a list about Joni Mitchell but not restricted to that. In the introductory email that you all got when you subscribed, it explains that the "JMDL is an unmoderated discussion of anything and everything related to the life, art, music, and times of Joni Mitchell". That statement can and has been interpreted on many different levels. I don't always read or agree with the off-topic things that are posted here but I think those topics add to the flavor of the list as a whole. The Joni content ebbs and flows based on what Joni is doing, how active she is, and MOST OF ALL on what topics list members introduce. If you don't like what is being discussed - introduce a topic and bring it back home. Over the years, we've been through this NJC debate many, many times. In my opinion, the NJC tag has effectively eliminated the argument's power because now *there is a way to eliminate the non-Joni content* if you don't want it. Given that, you have to understand that every single member of the list (over 800) is a human being and capable of making mistakes. Posts unrelated to Joni that are not labelled NJC are 99.96% of the time simply an oversight. The venom spewed back as a result of those oversights never ceases to amaze me. ***Humans! PLEASE remember to mark your non-Joni posts with NJC in the subject line. Thanks!*** OnlyJONI people: If you find the unmarked NJC posts have simply reached an intolerable level, might I suggest checking out a few other Joni lists out there: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jonimitchellfanclub (161 members) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jonimitchell/ (77 members) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JoniMitchellfans/ (122 members) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jonimitchell20/ (5 members) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JoniMitchellisanAngelofLove/ (5 members) These may offer you what you are looking for. You can also start your own Joni list for free at: http://groups.yahoo.com >It is just as easy to put NJC in the subject line. On this you and I both agree. Since this is a Joni-based list, I feel the non-Joni based posts should be marked, not the other way around. Thanks for listening, folks! Les NP: Cat Stevens: "Trouble" (seriously, really... it is playing right now... :-) NP ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 11:39:34 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Joni's gay fans and other things that have to do with the JMDL (NJC) Dear BITB, Les responded to your post beautifully, but I can't help myself ... > It is just as easy to put NJC in the subject line. Then WHY THE HELL DIDN'T YOU??? Peace, Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 12:09:35 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Joni's gay fans and other things that have to do with theJMDL njc Take a pill. blonde in the bleachers wrote: > Andrew you have no idea what being a bitch is, and you are lucky you > can't see the finger getting exercise at this moment. > > First off, this whole discussion about Joni's gay fans is self-serving > and quite boring, great she has homosexual fans, lets move on to another > topic. Laurent said something to the effect that "gay people are more > educated about the arts" which I find to be a bunch of bullshit. God > forbid if someone came on this list and said something derogatory about > gay people, like "heteros are way more educated about sports than all > those gay people drinking herbal tea and listening to their Cher > albums." The whole NJC was never really that big of an issue until a > bunch of people decided that they could post crap like transexual > blahbity blah and shit about Bush, Israel, The Arab World etc...I have no > problem with people who want to express their views about politics just > don't do it on this list, go to a list more specific to your need to > spout your rhetoric. I am sure as hell not going to post everysingle > item I write as "JC" when this is the "JMDL". > > "ooooh it is easy to delete it" It is just as easy to put NJC in the > subject line. > > >From: Little Bird >Reply-To: Little Bird >To: vince , joni@smoe.org > >Subject: Re: Joni's gay fans???? >Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:31:05 -0800 > (PST) > > > Not to say that the discussion wasn't interesting >but all > anyone offer as to the truth of the >proposition is how it seems to them > by encountering >people in here, and that does not make a valid > >foundation for conjecture.> > >...Which is precisely what the > conversation was about. >No one was saying they knew the truth or had all > the >answers. In fact, I made it clear that it was just for >the sake of > discussion, and it was a fun discussion at >that. > >And all this talk > about JC and NJC...I really don't >understand what all the fuss is about, > frankly, and >I'm an NJC subscriber. I delete about 30% of the posts > >that ARE about Joni because I don't enjoy the >particular subject. Are > we going to segregate >ourselves into little sealed off corners of the > list >and filter out ideas we don't want to hear about, >endlessly > labelling and categorizing? "Oh, sorry I >belong to the Court & Spark > Only list" -"Well I belong >to the 'Hejira/Travelogue version' digest. > Please >refrain from posting about the original Hejira. It >really makes > me mad." > >I thought such histrionics were reserved for acting >school > flunkees. > >I don't know about the rest of you but living in a >vacuum > is too grey and dusty for my liking. If you >don't like it, delete it. > The sun will rise the next >day. Life will go on. And your finger may > benefit from >the exercise. > >Sorry I'm being a bitch. But I am. (At > least tonight) > >-Andrew >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign > up now. >http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 12:19:31 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Joni's gay fans and other things that have to do with the JMDL njc > Take a pill. Please remember to cut extraneous text from the posting to which you're responding. All this arguing and whining about free speech is bad enough without having to read it over and over again. Lori, feeling bitchy too ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 13:29:02 -0700 From: Les Irvin Subject: Re: Joni's gay fans and other things that have to do with the JMDL njc At 1/29/2003 01:19 PM, Lori Fye wrote: >Please remember to cut extraneous text from the posting to which you're >responding. All this arguing and whining about free speech is bad >enough without having to read it over and over again. > >Lori, >feeling bitchy too Hi folks - I have just started the "Everybody is an asshole on the JMDL and I'm gonna tell them what I think" list. Join by sending a message to yousuck@yourmommadoestoo.com with this in the body: "subscribe EIAAOTJMDLAIGTTWIT" The only rule is that if the message has Joni content please label it NEIAAOTJMDLAIGTTWITC. Thanks and Happy posting! Les ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 12:27:23 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: For the Joni Only List njc KJHSF@aol.com wrote: > Hi Sarah! > I really don't think the anger comes because of people who occasionally > forget. I think the hostility comes when members decide that their own > political beliefs must be heard by all, and these posts are even prefaced > with something like "I realize this is NJC, but it's an issue that concerns > us all etc., etc." Hmm. Maybe I'm missing something. I've read probably ten thousand posts, and only recall this happening a couple of times. I have certainly forgotten to add njc a few times myself. Anything that is dependant on memory is...is....well I forget.. Having to label Joni Content as jc is still a memory dependant thing, and when people forget, the joni onlies will not get that post. I think the system in place is the best one, and doesn't need to be changed. Mags N Brei wrote: > we are here for a reason, to discuss the life , music and art and everything > else related to Joni MItchell. I'm not so sure about that. Maybe the list began that way, but it has morphed into something more. Those that want to discuss nothing but Joni have the option of being on Joni Only.I thouroughly enjoy the discussions about other topics including the music of other artists, politics, etc. If I don't like it, or don't care, I DELETE. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who feels that the jmdl is like a family. A family of kindred souls who have in common a deep love of the music of JM. I would feel it a great loss if the list were censored or discussions were limited to certain subjects because a few listers were pissed about receiving NJC material. Ironically, they are the ones that will not read this post because it is NJC. If those people would just politely remind those that forget the njc tag, ...to......uh.....forgot again... RR ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 15:32:46 -0500 From: BRIANASYMES@aol.com Subject: Evolving the list to a message board NJC I was rockabillyin the net over at Nanci Griffith's site which just bought online a message board and the light hit me to ask every body here why we could not Evolve this list to that medium. Instead of sending out digest to JM onlys / NJC onlys there could be a window with all sorts of files on different events topic's etc. etc. NP Art Blakey and Friend, Free fo All Brian Peace love and Joni I watched all of the state of the union and did not clap once! ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #72 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)