From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #71 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, January 29 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 071 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Crosby and others (NJC) [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Joni is so good!!!! njc [vince ] gay fans?! [Bruce Kimerer ] njc history on tv tonight [vince ] Re: For the Joni Only List, now NJC [sl.m@shaw.ca] highly evolved ["janine sherman" ] Re: njc history keeps happening on tv tonight [vince ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #33 [Aerchak@aol.com] Re: For the Joni Only List - NJC [vince ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #33 now NJC [vince ] Re: The first to make "world music"? NJC [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Joni's gay fans???? [Little Bird ] David Crosby-CPR concert now NJC ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] Re: David Crosby-CPR concert now NJC [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: For the Joni Only List - NJC ["kakki" ] Counting Crows BYT cover on TWO WEEKS NOTICE [] Re: Michael Leunig NJC ["hell" ] Why I don't like tuna.... NJC ["hell" ] Joni Fans ["Happy The Man" ] Re: Being Gay, njc ["kasey simpson" ] Today's Library Links: January 29 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 20:19:21 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Crosby and others (NJC) In a message dated 1/28/03 7:35:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, darice@mindspring.com writes: > I have spoken with Crosby since , in passing, and found him to be > personable, bright and sweet. > I am looking forward to a show in March with CSN... at my local > venue Konocti and will report all encounters. > Maybe I shouldn't have asked him if he was going to wash his hair :~) Just kiddin Darice. I'm glad you had a good experience, and YES you will enjoy the show. I look forward to your report. Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 20:34:06 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: Joni is so good!!!! njc I had Joni in the car with me, we were, ah, making out, that is why I swerved, and now Heather's post has Joni content and how can I say nicely, Joni now has Vince content, her next child will be my child too. Vince > > >> chiaroscuro@snet.net wrote, forgetting to type in njc: >> >> << Gee ... someone cut me off in traffic today nearly causing an >> accident and I called that person an asshole. It wasn't you, was it >> Vince? ;-) >> > AzeemAK@aol.com replie >> >> >> Ooh, you're going to be in trouble now Heather - that's definitely >> njc :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 20:45:52 -0500 From: Bruce Kimerer Subject: gay fans?! Vince That's exactly what I said... "...does Joni seem to have a preponderance of gay fans? I say 'seem' because there's no way for me to really know that one way or the other. The number of gay participants in this discussion list may have as much to do with the atmosphere and environment of the list as it does with Joni." Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 20:52:43 -0500 From: vince Subject: njc history on tv tonight Since no one here watches MTV except me (love B2K's and 50 Cent's new videos, and am all hooked into Battle of the Sexes, Real World vs Road Rules - go ahead, tell me I'm low class, I am, I really fucking am, I don't even belong in the JMDL because I watch MTV and I have a subscription to Rolling Stone too and I read it cover to cover!!!!) no one has seen Christine Aguilera's brand new video but me - it is called Beautiful and she had to go a long way to make up for the atrocity of her last video so this one goes the other way totally, this one is very tasteful and is an ode to accepting yourself as you are because you are indeed so beautiful just as you are (never said her lyrics were original or profound, but probably new to a lot of her fans) it features MALE FRENCH KISSING CLOSE UPS SEVERAL DIFFERENT SHOTS AND ANGLES EDITED IN A BUNCH OF TIMES so in America, the non-premium tv channel* taboo on men kissing (and this is hot men kissing with tongues and lips and open mouths caressing lips on lips tongue on tongue) has been broken by MTV and Christine Aguilera. It was broadcast yesterday but I didn't post until I saw it again. It is really hot. who would have thought -- Vince NP: MTV news! *by which I mean not Showtime, not HBO, not some subscription premium channel but regular old fashioned cable/broadcast tv ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:56:53 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: For the Joni Only List, now NJC Hi Ken, Yes, point taken. If it's being done deliberately, that's quite different and I can see it would be very annoying. Sarah From: KJHSF@aol.com I really don't think the anger comes because of people who occasionally forget. I think the hostility comes when members decide that their own political beliefs must be heard by all, and these posts are even prefaced with something like "I realize this is NJC, but it's an issue that concerns us all etc., etc." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 21:03:13 -0500 From: "janine sherman" Subject: highly evolved MICHAEL in Toronto wrote I resemble that remark! Highly evolved, I'll use that one the next time I am in the position of defending la Joan. Peace, Janine ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 21:06:51 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: njc history keeps happening on tv tonight I guess to balance the really hot male-male kissing scene, MTV news had a special report on T.A.T.U., a Russian "all girl" group, composed of two young females (and I mean young and just past girlhood, maybe 15 or so). The two stars are Russian, good singers, and very, very lesbian if these videos can be believed, which MTV is pondering, but if one were into hot lesbian sox on the cable tv, this would be it. MTV ran extended excepts of some of their Russian videos. One usually has top rent this stuff from certain type of video stores. Everyone: they are coming (both on the videos and) to America! And just for extra fun, Innerscope Records is the labeled they have signed with and is releasing their albums and videos in America. Yeah, Innerscope - that's Eminem's label... I know every one else watches Steely Dan on the Lawrence Welk Show, opps, I mean, PBS fund raiser specials, but MTV sure is interesting to watch! NP: 50 " 's new video, produced by Eminem, both on Innerscope - oops, video ended, now it is Real World, and no naked people in that hot tub yet, but it will happen soon and we'll have a little straight sex tonight too! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 20:06:58 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Joni's gay fans NJC Strength is a component of tragedy Bruce, in the proper Greek sense of the term. Greek tragic heroes were men or women who went further than the ordinary person dared to, who showed strength, perhaps madness, no respect for convention, and who had within them, or whose situation had within it, an inherent flaw that the audience knew, right from the start, would destroy them. But the hero didn't know, and so the inevitable often unfolded around them even as they were doing everything to avoid it. In that sense, the word tragic fits Judy Garland, for example, quite well. Sarah From: Bruce Kimerer . . . I don't believe that TRAGIC is the essential component that makes for a gay female icon. To the contrary, I think it's strength (and superior talent, but that's a given). What makes a Judy Garland or a Barbra Streisand or even a Joni Mitchell especially appealing is the fact that she defies the sexist societal stereotype of female weakness without a man/husband to supply the supposed stability/strength she lacks on her own. As a gay man I can identify with these women because I too have been misjudged by society as somehow being less than strong, less than complete, less than a real man. Our divas showed them wrong. So can I. Long live the Divas! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 20:12:46 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: NJC etiquette Yes, LOL, exactly. Have been in that position myself a couple of times. ;-) Sarah From: AzeemAK@aol.com One thing that amuses me sometimes about when people accidentally post njc stuff without tagging it thus - there must be a little internal debate about whether to tag the apology NJC, so as not to add to the weight of njc stuff joni-onlies have to wade through - or leave the tag off so that those most likely to have been irked by the original mistake at least get the benefit of the sinner's contrition. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:05:37 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: For the Joni Only List - NJC Oddly, perhaps, I have found myself agreeing with all sides on this issue, pro and con. This issue has come up before a few times. Here is what I haven't seen addressed this go around (but it has been addressed in the past here) - a number of people who subscribed to the list do so through their work email. I don't know about other countries, but it is fairly standard practice in the U.S. for employers to monitor employee email accounts. You can debate whether that is fair or not until the cows come home - I don't like it, but on the other hand, company email legally is considered official company property and correspondence and can be subpoened in lawsuits. I don't know about the latest email filtering devices, but in the past, when a subpoena is issued for email, the company usually has to hand over the entire back-up tape, or else go through weeks of labor and great expense to print out and sort through 1000s of emails to find the responsive ones. Companies regularly employ certain software to screen through the email to find sexual or other content. This happened at my old law firm. They did a surprise run through and captured all email that had certain keywords in it. I don't subscribe from work but someone had sent me an email there titled "Joni Photos" of some concert pics and that one was captured! Think if your company has been hit with a sexual harassment suit (which according to all the sensitivity training mandatory at many companies) can include ANYTHING in the workplace that mentions sex. They subpoena the emails and find a load of incoming that has sexual content. No matter what the context or circumstance, a sharp plaintiff lawyer may use those emails as proof that the company is not being vigilant about keeping it out of the work place. Maybe there are others on the list who work for government agencies, or the FBI or the White House - ya never know. Many of the political posts, if screened, (which in government and government contractor firms they surely are) could put those listmembers in an awkward position. So, you can say, well, don't subscribe from work or maybe those people will say it's best to subscribe to JC-only to avoid any potentially problematic email in the work account inbox. I'm just trying to show another valid reason why some people have a problem with certain content. It's not neccesarily because they don't like the content or just like to gripe. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 21:56:19 EST From: Aerchak@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #33 At least Vince knew he was being an asshole regarding his comments on not using statistical sampling in the gay/lesbian discussion. I thinks it's important to acknowledge when one is being an asshole whenever possible. That said I absolutely refuse to label my Joni postings as JC so everyone else can write about whatever they want ad nauseum and not label theirs NJC. You know what, I don't care anymore. As a matter of fact, let's not discuss Joni mitchell at all. I'm only going to discuss pugs. In particular, my pug, Henry McPug. And sometimes I'm going to talk about greyhounds, but mainly pugs. Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 22:06:27 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: For the Joni Only List - NJC kakki wrote: >I'm just trying to show another valid reason why some people have a problem >with certain content. It's not neccesarily because they don't like the >content or just like to gripe. > > > As the office manager of the law office I work in, three things: 1. employees under my supervision should never, ever be receiving personal emails while on company time. I do not pay them to do their private emails. Office email accounts are for work use. As well, the only times employees should ever go on-line is for work related situations. 2. as office manager, no one ever reviews what I do on-line, thanks be to the powers that named me office manager! I am the network administrator so I just review myself, when I feel the need to, which is never. 3. with cable hook up on big ass Mac G4s, it is amazing how fast I can access my baseball sites and my home email! Vince NP: Real World, the hot tub scene of today's show, six people, three couples, straight sex, I knew MTV could do it! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 22:10:04 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #33 now NJC YOU ROCK! YOU TOTALLY ROCK! Alert: someone with a great sense of humor in the JMDL - this was really funny (and makes a few great points). Andrea wrote: > At least Vince knew he was being an asshole regarding his comments on > not using statistical sampling in the gay/lesbian discussion. I > thinks it's important to acknowledge when one is being an asshole > whenever possible. That said I absolutely refuse to label my Joni > postings as JC so everyone else can write about whatever they want ad > nauseum and not label theirs NJC. You know what, I don't care > anymore. As a matter of fact, let's not discuss Joni mitchell at > all. I'm only going to discuss pugs. In particular, my pug, Henry > McPug. And sometimes I'm going to talk about greyhounds, but mainly pugs. > My best friend had a pug. But it died. That is 1/2 of all the pug content I can do and will save the other 1/2 for when I needed it. So how is Henry these days? Vince ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 22:10:16 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: The first to make "world music"? NJC In a message dated 1/6/03 5:17:32 AM, ink08@hotmail.com writes: >I agree with Fred (and David) but would add an important qualification >to Fred's 'USA/Euro' definition. I believe what Fred is referring to (he'll >correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure) is in fact 'USA/Anglo-Saxon' culture, >i.e. everything sung in the English language. 'Latin American' music (sic) >is Spanish and Portuguese, two European languages; 'African' music (sic) >is largely in French, another European language. A lot of 'world music' >comes from these two continents. > >Notwithstanding the fact that USA/Euro culture is everyday more USA and >less European... > >mike in barcelona Well, what I actually meant was regarding the music itself, not the language sung to it. My point is that "world music" is a useless and ethnocentric marketing term designating any human musical endeavor that isn't in the tradition of mainstream Western (hence, USA/Euro) civilization. Lots of African pop music may be sung in French, but its musical language is decidedly nonwestern. Fred ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:31:05 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: Joni's gay fans???? > Not to say that the discussion wasn't interesting but all anyone offer as to the truth of the proposition is how it seems to them by encountering people in here, and that does not make a valid foundation for conjecture.> ...Which is precisely what the conversation was about. No one was saying they knew the truth or had all the answers. In fact, I made it clear that it was just for the sake of discussion, and it was a fun discussion at that. And all this talk about JC and NJC...I really don't understand what all the fuss is about, frankly, and I'm an NJC subscriber. I delete about 30% of the posts that ARE about Joni because I don't enjoy the particular subject. Are we going to segregate ourselves into little sealed off corners of the list and filter out ideas we don't want to hear about, endlessly labelling and categorizing? "Oh, sorry I belong to the Court & Spark Only list" -"Well I belong to the 'Hejira/Travelogue version' digest. Please refrain from posting about the original Hejira. It really makes me mad." I thought such histrionics were reserved for acting school flunkees. I don't know about the rest of you but living in a vacuum is too grey and dusty for my liking. If you don't like it, delete it. The sun will rise the next day. Life will go on. And your finger may benefit from the exercise. Sorry I'm being a bitch. But I am. (At least tonight) - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 22:40:38 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: David Crosby-CPR concert now NJC Maybe David's ill. He said himself that people with transplants don't live to be 90. Lama np: "Sketches of Spain", a bowl of shredded wheat ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:51:46 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: Today in History: January 28 sweet Jimmy wrote: <<> my sentiments exactly :P. Had I not listened to you Jimmy, Brian and I would not be married today. I would not have taken the opportunity to show how Joni's life and music was woven into my own life. Had I not drawn the image of my daughter giving me my Joni Mitchell albums for Mother's Day some .. well over ten years later , Brian would not have read about how I "lost" my albums because I left them behind when I left a dangerous situation, took two year old aforementioned daughter on the train headed for Ontario...and because of the music of Joni Mitchell, I discovered that my own little green story was not the only one, and that the possibility of a life beyond the one I knew was indeed possible. Time and time again, Joni's lyrics, music, strength and courage have affected me personally and the lives of so many others. Because of the music of Joni Mitchell, all of us are 'here' and so many of us have made life long friends all over this marbled bowling ball. I love Court and Spark and cannot believe that it is thirty years old! Court and Spark was the first Joni album I heard and continues to remain one of my favourites. oh how boring. :PPPP Mags You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 23:09:32 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: David Crosby-CPR concert now NJC In a message dated 1/28/03 10:41:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, jlamadoo@fuse.net writes: > Maybe David's ill. > > He said himself that people with transplants don't live to be 90. > > Most people don't live to be 90 Dali lama !!!! If he was that ill, he would not have put on such a great concert. Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 20:28:14 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: For the Joni Only List - NJC Vince wrote: >1. employees under my supervision should never, ever be receiving > personal emails while on company time. I do not pay them to do their > private emails. Office email accounts are for work use. As well, the > only times employees should ever go on-line is for work related > situations. I'm sure that is the policy of most employers. But what if an employee is subscribed to a personal interest list, and never spend company time writing back, but maybe spend lunch or break time reading the posts? The places I've worked don't mind people reading on breaks and are mostly concerned with the content of what is coming into and going out of the email account because of the liability issues (written in stone on the back-up tapes and can later emerge as an exhibit in a lawsuit). > 2. as office manager, no one ever reviews what I do on-line, thanks be > to the powers that named me office manager! I am the network > administrator so I just review myself, when I feel the need to, which is > never. That's you and that is great - but many employers are monitoring the email on a regular, systematic basis. > 3. with cable hook up on big ass Mac G4s, it is amazing how fast I can > access my baseball sites and my home email! LOL! I'm guilty of some of this, too. But I've always been too paranoid to subscribe to any list at work. I'm even paranoid to post on some topics from my home account because I've had some involvement in those issues in my job. But my point is what about the people here who get the list from work? You can say that they shouldn't participate then, but that isn't really fair. Not everyone is in such a freewheeling situation. So many may have their own particular reasons to want to keep it so stringently Joni only. Or maybe they should join or start a moderated Joni list of their own? Then some would argue that is splitting people up again. I must say that Les is the most hands-off and liberal listowner I've experienced compared to other lists I've been on. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 12:26:16 +0800 (PHT) From: Subject: Counting Crows BYT cover on TWO WEEKS NOTICE I watched TWO WEEKS NOTICE last night starring Sandra Bullock and Hugh Grant. Bullock plays an attorney who is into alternative lawyering and she is espousing causes that run counter to the big development plans of millionaire Hugh Grant. In one scene, Counting Crows' "Big Yellow Taxi" was played after the scene established that Bullock is into the preservation of historic and culturally significant buildings/places. The song played well to the jaunty and bouncy nature of the film. By the way, the film has great dialogues and some very natural acting from Bullock and Grant (who plays shallow cads to perfection), but overall, the director does not seem to know how to end the story. Its like an extended sitcom. Joseph in Manila > Being as I listen to Radio 2 most of the day (the only music my > colleagues and I can usually agree on) I am hearing the Counting > Crows/Vanessa Carlton version a couple of times a day - Ken Bruce just > played it and commented "an improvement on the original if you ask > me..." at the end. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Use MSN Messenger to send music and pics to your friends > http://messenger.msn.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 18:05:04 +1300 From: "hell" Subject: Re: Michael Leunig NJC John wrote: > I'm pretty sure Joni-people would like him and a quick > search of the internet suggests that you can get a > small taste of his images there. If anyone is > interested try > http://members.ozemail.com.au/~paulma/leunig.htm. > There is also an appreciation web site at > http://www.curlyflat.net/ though not it seems a great > many images. > > Those not familiar with Michael Leunig are missing > something very special IMO. I just wanted to add a big "me too" to John's post about Michael Leunig. I have several of his books and have always loved his work - even if it is a little dark at times! One of my favourites cartoons has the folllowing "script": "He awoke to find that his underpants were missing.... He went searching and met the milkman who told him that he had seen a pair of underpants.... ....moving like a ghost along the foggy street in the direction of the paddock.... He ran to the paddock and there in a ditch he found the tattered remains of his underpants.... On his way home he met an old man who said that last night he had shot a pair of marauding underpants which had been devouring his chickens for the past two weeks.... At least that explained the feathers inside his underpants in recent mornings but it didn't explain why his life was degenerating into an uncontrollable farce." Hell ___________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman Hell's Home Page - NEW & IMPROVED! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 18:25:12 +1300 From: "hell" Subject: Why I don't like tuna.... NJC I don't like tuna - in fact I hate tuna. The slightest smell makes me physically ill, and a decent whiff will have me retching uncontrollably. I was brought up to like tuna, and the rest of my family like tuna, so it can't be environment OR genes? Maybe it's completely inexplicable, and there's no reason "why" - it just is? To me the argument about why someone is gay makes about as much sense as what I've just written above. Does there have to be a reason? And why is everyone so determined to FIND a reason? I'm content knowing I AM, without knowing why, and I agree with Bryan, who said "if you're looking for a cause, then you're looking for a cure." If you looked at individual backgrounds, you'd find as much variation as in any group of heterosexuals, which would negate the heredity vs. environment argument, anyway, in both cases. Hell ___________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman Hell's Home Page - NEW & IMPROVED! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 23:57:12 -0600 From: "Happy The Man" Subject: Joni Fans There are gay and straight people on this list! Crap and I watched the State of the Union! Joni Rules! Peace, Craig NP: Dixie Chicks - Home ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 01:08:30 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Re: Being Gay, njc GAY GAY GAY GAY GAY GAY GAY GAY Can I watch you jump? :) Kasey I think if I see the word "gay" one more time today, I'm going to jump the fence. Lori, j/kGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 02:08:48 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: January 29 On January 29 the following items were published: 1974: "WMMR Retrospective Transcription" - WMMR (Interview - Audio Transcription) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=604 1974: "WMMR Retrospective Transcription (Part 2)" - WMMR (Interview - Audio Transcription) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=945 1975: "Top Women Performers Plan Gala Benefit at U.N" - New York Times (News Item) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=826 1998: "Rummaging Through the Attic" - Cornell Daily Sun (Biography) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=64 ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #71 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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