From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #70 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, January 28 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 070 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Down To You [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Down To You [Susan Guzzi ] Re: Today in History: January 28 [Randy Remote ] Re: Being Gay, njc ["Lori Fye" ] was Symphony Space Event now some thoughts on NJC versus JC [Mags N Brei ] On splitting up the list further - NJC ["Lori Fye" ] Re:some thoughts on NJC versus JC ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Down To You ["Bree Mcdonough" ] RE: David Crosby-CPR concert now NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: For the Joni Only List [KJHSF@aol.com] Re: Gay's interest in Joni, njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] C&S [Merk54@aol.com] Another take on Jim's question. [johnirving ] Re: For the Joni Only List [Chris Marshall ] Re: For the Joni Only List NJC [colin ] Re: For the Joni Only List [Catherine McKay ] Re: For the Joni Only List [Catherine McKay ] RE: jan 25!!! NJC ["patrick leader" ] Re: Re: Down To You [courtandspark@earthlink.net] Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #69 [BRYAN8847@aol.com] re: Joni's gay fans [Bruce Kimerer ] Re: For the Joni Only List - NJC ["Lori Fye" ] re: Joni's gay fans ["Lori Fye" ] Crosby and others (NJC) [Darice ] RE: the GAY card ["Heather" ] Joni's gay fans???? [vince ] Re: Today in History: January 28 [FMYFL@aol.com] RE: Joni's gay fans???? ["Heather" ] Re: Joni's gay fans???? njc really [AzeemAK@aol.com] NJC etiquette [AzeemAK@aol.com] RE: NJC etiquette ["Heather" ] Re: David Crosby-CPR concert now NJC [FMYFL@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:54:26 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Down To You In a message dated 1/28/2003 3:30:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, djb@binkleybarfield.com writes: > You settle for less than fascination, a few drinks later > you're not so > choosy I'd be real hard pressed to pick a fave from C&S - Down to You might very well be it, but the line above always bugs me a little. "Less than fascination" would signify that that the person is already going to compromise in regards to who they pick up, then the second half of the couplet pretty much says the same thing. I suppose it's saying that after a couple more drinks the standards have gotten even lower than they were to begin with, it just has always sounded a tad awkward to me. Bob NP: Steve Goldberger & The Fringe Locals, "You Turn Me On I'm A Radio" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:11:17 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Down To You Hey Donna Baby! I love this song as well - "Down To You" - my favorite line is: In the morning there are lovers in the street they look so high, you brush against a stranger and you both apologize. Old friends seem indifferent, you must have brought that on, Old bonds have broken down, Love is gone. It reminds me of my younger days and living that life! By the way Bree - I'll say it one more time - BLUE baby - that's the one - my number one! And the worst I don't care what you say is "DED" - EWWWW! Peace, Susan - --- Donna Binkley wrote: > Guzzi said: > Sometimes it seems I let my favorites sit too long without playing them > (Blue, C&S FTR etc).album - > > > I do the same thing, I love C&S - Down to You has always been my > favorite on that album.... > > You go down to the pick up station craving warmth and beauty > You settle for less than fascination, a few drinks later you're not so > choosy > Then the closing lights strip off the shadows of this strange new flesh > you've found > Clutching the night to you like a fig leaf > You hurry - to the blackness, and the blankets, to lay down an > impression > And your lonliness........ > > It's such a sad song. Always makes me teary...who hasn't ever felt > that way themselves at some point? > > db > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > > This message has been scanned by the E250. Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:22:01 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Today in History: January 28 SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: C&S, So I bought the LP, and holy cow!! There's not a false nanosecond on this record! Agreed, it's a classic from start to finish. All this and Cheech and Chong, too. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:34:16 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Being Gay, njc I think if I see the word "gay" one more time today, I'm going to jump the fence. Lori, j/k ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:37:57 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: was Symphony Space Event now some thoughts on NJC versus JC hi Chris, I wasnt going to get myself in the middle of this but I am intrigued by your final sentence in this post in which you wrote: <<<-Chris, unable to voice his opinion on the JMDL without seemingly pissing people off>> for what it's worth, I wasnt "pissed off" as much as surprised by what I perceived as anger toward those of us on the NJC part of the list. whose mail includes NJC material. While I understand that there is a definitive category/split between those folks who wish to read "Joni only", for whatever reason, there are sometimes slips of the finger and a mail which is non-Joni related makes its way over to the Joni onlies. I feel that sometimes it happens because many of the people who write openly on the list are coming from a place of passion, sometimes heated emotions, and before they know it..they've forgotten the NJC tag. Im not really sure I understand all the anger that comes our way as a result Chris and I dont mean just you...this comes from others as well. Everyone tries their best, truly their do. I believe that. we are here for a reason, to discuss the life , music and art and everything else related to Joni MItchell. What I see happening is that sometimes it is not so easy to compartmentalize, that sometimes, when someone starts to dig into Joni and her music, the life and experience of that particular writer begins to bleed through the cracks . Sometimes it is difficult to keep things separate. Joni has in fact affected the lives of so many of us here. Ive seen and heard countless testimonies to that. I dont want to walk on egg shells here Chris. I dont want to worry about what I write or be afraid to write something for fear offending the Joni onlies every time I post. Respectfully, I understand the "need" for a reminder when someone forgets, however, when inappropriate anger is thrashed out, I just take a step or two back and feel reluctant to post anything . I dont think that's the way this is meant to work. Some people have a tendancy to share what resides in their hearts and what is going on in their lives with people on the list that they have grown to love and trust because they've shared some of the more intimate details of their life. This is by no means an attack on you personally Chris. Far from it. I am merely expressing some of my thoughts. On another note, I dont want to see the list separated further than it is either, as Patrick Leader and Lieve both said...this is why we/re here. It's not some sterile space where we are only allowed to say the JM word and that's it. My love for Joni Mitchell is a part of my life and as corny as this may sound, she did affect my life in many ways, in particular, during very difficult times when my life ran parallel to hers. Should I not talk about that because it is too personal? Is does have everything to do with Joni Mitchell afterall. For some , she is a life saver, she has been the only thing that kept some of us on track in the most difficult times. This is but one example of what Im getting at. Life is intertwined, not stacked up into little boxes. If there is something I am not interested in reading, I merely use my delete key and move on. Chris, I realize this method might not work for you. I respect the fact that you are on the Joni only list and while I may not know the reasons why, it is your choice, which again, I respect. I ask you this, please respect those of us who do want to move into the worlds beyond the JM word which have brought many of us so much closer than we ever dreamed possible. I found a quote that a friend sent to me, sorry I dont know the source but I thought it was most appropriate ..... No tree is so foolish that its branches fight amongst themselves. with respect and in peace, Mags. You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:39:08 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: On splitting up the list further - NJC Lieve wrote: > This is not an argument against the JC-NJC split, that seems to make > good sense if some people want to cut back that drastically what they > receive, but for those of us who have agreed to accept wider posts, I > think we will just get into cliques and disappear if we go off on > sub-lists! I've said it before and I'll say it again (and again and again, I'm sure): This too shall pass. It always does. Or, as *someone else* wrote: "The blizzards come and go The stab and glare and buckshot Of the heavy heavy snow It comes and goes It comes and goes" Lori ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 16:44:05 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Today in History: January 28 In a message dated 1/28/2003 4:22:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, guitarzan@direcpc.com writes: > All this and Cheech and > Chong, too. AND Crosby-Nash, AND Jose Feliciano, AND Robbie Robertson, AND the Jazz Crusaders, AND The LA Express...man, EVERYBODY wanted to be on this record, and who could blame 'em! :~) It was also released on Quadrophonic, and 1/2 speed mastered Nautilus, and Gold CD. Obviously a work prized for not only its achievements in lyricism but in its sound achievement as well. All I know is that I wore out an LP AND a cassette. Bob NP: Steve Goldberger & The Fringe Locals, "It Takes A Lot To Laugh, It Takes A Train to Cry" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:57:17 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: nature/nurture njc this is a fascinating subject which is why i love being on the njc list even if it means i have to scroll through lots of other less interesting conversations... i respect those who have told us that they knew they were gay/lesbian at an early age & take that to mean that it is most definately an issue of nature...biological...of course in the end it really doesn't matter why anymore than heterosexuals should have to answer why they are the way they are... however it seems to me that if this was able to be proven in some way that it is biological that this would help to quiet those who consider being gay/lesbian a choice & in the case of some religions something that is a sin...in theory anyway... on the other hand i do know of at least one friend who at a point in her life considered dating women because she had several bad relationship experiences with men...well what she hadn't figured out yet is that her bad experience was with her father & she was just following that pattern that many do until the connection is made as to why we go for unhealthy relationships & how we have imprinted love...so what i am saying is i guess in some instances it can be something that one chooses though this might be only be considered a choice for someone who is actually bisexual rather than gay/lesbian or heterosexual? anyway, thanks to all who have shared their personal stories, that is what i love about this list! now i must go prepare for a show tonight & i promise to be very very nice to everyone who wants to talk to me before i go on! lol! ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 14:10:46 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re:some thoughts on NJC versus JC Mags wrote: > for whatever reason, there are sometimes slips of the finger and a > mail which is non-Joni related makes its way over to the Joni onlies. Here's a suggestion, lame though it may be: Why not begin each post by typing "NJC" into the Subject space FIRST, then whatever the subject really is? Then go about composing what you want to say. If it turns out that it's Joni-related, delete the NJC tag from the Subject space. Seriously, this could work. (Otoh, it does make me want to sing "I'm walkin' on eggs shells, and it don't feel good!") > No tree is so foolish that its branches fight amongst themselves. That's wonderful, Mags! Thanks for sharing it. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 14:24:46 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Down To You >> You settle for less than fascination, a few drinks later >> you're not so choosy > "Less than fascination" would signify that that the person is already > going to compromise in regards to who they pick up, then the second > half of the couplet pretty much says the same thing. I suppose it's > saying that after a couple more drinks the standards have gotten even > lower than they were to begin with, it just has always sounded a tad > awkward to me. Having worked in several bars and having hung out in far too many of them, those lines have always made perfect sense to me. Remember, they're preceded by "You go down to the pick up station, Craving warmth and beauty ..." You're not craving fascination, just warmth and beauty. Mostly though, you wanna get laid. So, after a few drinks, something far below than "fascination" is acceptable. I've seen it happen at least a hundred times. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 17:25:25 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Down To You >By the way Bree - I'll say it one more time - BLUE baby - that's the one - >my number one! And the >worst I don't care what you say is "DED" - EWWWW! Oh..Blue..now I remember. Mack is the one that will rip your tongue out for trashing DED. I have found.. just recently... a liking for it. And is growing on me with each new listen. Bree >Peace, >Susan > >--- Donna Binkley wrote: > > Guzzi said: > > Sometimes it seems I let my favorites sit too long without playing them > > (Blue, C&S FTR etc).album - > > > > > > I do the same thing, I love C&S - Down to You has always been my > > favorite on that album.... > > > > You go down to the pick up station craving warmth and beauty > > You settle for less than fascination, a few drinks later you're not so > > choosy > > Then the closing lights strip off the shadows of this strange new flesh > > you've found > > Clutching the night to you like a fig leaf > > You hurry - to the blackness, and the blankets, to lay down an > > impression > > And your lonliness........ > > > > It's such a sad song. Always makes me teary...who hasn't ever felt > > that way themselves at some point? > > > > db > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > > > > > This message has been scanned by the E250. >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. >http://mailplus.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 17:30:39 -0500 From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: RE: David Crosby-CPR concert now NJC Kate wrote: << another thought to illustrate the pre & post show emotional space of many performers... >> Also, as someone mentioned, Crosby has a transplanted liver. From what I've heard about transplanted organs, it is necessary for recipients to take anti-rejection drugs for life, and there're supposed to be pretty hard to live with -- although that is NO EXCUSE to be mean to my JMDL buds. (I haven't been this pissed off since Sting dissed Paz's son!) - --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 17:31:36 EST From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Re: For the Joni Only List In a message dated 1/27/2003 4:08:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, sl.m@shaw.ca writes: > The only real hostility I've seen on this list has been in posts from > Joni-only people, pissed off because someone forgot to put NJC in the > subject line. Hi Sarah! I really don't think the anger comes because of people who occasionally forget. I think the hostility comes when members decide that their own political beliefs must be heard by all, and these posts are even prefaced with something like "I realize this is NJC, but it's an issue that concerns us all etc., etc." That kind of presumption angers those of us who don't use this wonderful service for political discussion. And my perception of members is that none of us would mind someone exploiting the NJC rule to proffer info about a lister who needs our help or prayers because of some difficulty or something like that. But 99% of the time, the discussion is political in nature, and though sometimes someone simply forgets, some members have intentionally elected to initiate a dialogue about politics, war, etc. Members who purposefully break the NJC rule are acting in a hostile manner by their actions. This includes those who insert some non-related piece of pithy Joni content in what is clearly a political post. That is the real hostility, here. Certainly there are times when posts are accidentally sent without the NJC label, and, speaking for the Joni-onlies, its very easy to forgive and delete in these instances. But, when you are seeing a hostile reply, it's not someone overreacting to a genuine accident. It is someone reacting to an intentional omission by a member who has done this before and, despite being gently reminded, decides to do it again. When I first joined the list a few years ago, it was a lot easier to just go through and delete the untagged posts. It still is easy to do when they are clearly accidental. But you do begin to recognize those posts that are intentionally sent to all in order to disseminate a person's political ideology. It is especially irritating when their viewpoints on the unasked-for issues are different from yours. Because I disagree with much of the political discussion that goes on, I know that I don't want this service to involve politics, and when someone intentionally overrides that decision, it does infuriate me. Ken ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 17:33:03 -0500 From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Gay's interest in Joni, njc Laurent writes: << now I can appreciate Murph's humor. >> Ju suis content que t'apprecier enfin mes plaisantries. - --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 17:37:32 -0500 From: Merk54@aol.com Subject: C&S Return-Path: Received: from aol.com (mow-m24.webmail.aol.com [64.12.137.1]) by air-id11.mx.aol.com (v90_r2.5) with ESMTP id MAILINID111-0128172556; Tue, 28 Jan 2003 17:25:56 -0500 Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 17:25:56 -0500 From: Merk54@aol.com To: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: C&S MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <6E9909A0.2316430A.0004E5E0@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit One of the things about C&S that stands out for me is it's cohesion (if that's the right word). It is the one Joni that I always play start to finish, without exception. To me, it is more like one extended song. While I typically listen to a cd in it's entirety, I'm not above throwing on DJRD just to hear the title track, or Overture / Cotton Avenue, for example. However, C&S is always played all the way through. I won't even play it in my car stereo, unless I'm going on a long trip and know I can listen to the whole thing. In honor of it's birthday, I know what I will be listening to tonight. Jack ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 02:55:38 -0600 From: johnirving Subject: Another take on Jim's question. So, the question Jimbo asks is why should Gays be interested in Joni when she's so up front heterosexual? And I think to myself? Good question, yes. What could possibly be in it for me to listen to this blatantly heterosexual woman? Why should I follow the adventures of Capt. Picard, who is so blatantly heterosexual? How can I relate to a movie where Aliens have come to distroy the earth and the lead characters are off chasing skirt ? -Is this really what would be on the mind of someone faced with the end of the world??? Or I turn on a ballgame or tennis match and the tv crew is panning up to adoring wives and girlfriends unabashed in shoving his heterosexuality in my face. What do I care who Brad Johnson is shlepping? I just want to watch the game. From GunSmoke and the Lucy Show to the Simpsons and Allie McBeal, no matter what channel I turn to, no matter what hour of the day, it's all the same: Night in, night out, movie after movie, tv show upon tv show, radio song after radio song. - -Quoting the character from Parting Glances, "Why are heterosexuals so narcissitic that 99% of everything you see has to be about them.?" And somehow I find a way through it all to find there's much I can relate to. And if Jimbo were as magnanimous as he says he is, I'd like him to wander over to the gay section of his local Borders and try the same. He might find the human experience of others are much like his own and there is richness he can absorb an learn from. If I can relate to Joni, I bet he can relate to Edmund White if he wanted to. I would even try and resist being "taken aback" that he was standing there... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 23:02:59 +0000 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: For the Joni Only List On Tuesday, Jan 28, 2003, at 22:31 Europe/London, KJHSF@aol.com wrote: > I really don't think the anger comes because of people who > occasionally > forget. Well, the problem is that there have been times when an accidental untagged post has elicited an angry response. Ditto when someone's replied to an accidentally untagged post and accidentally forgotten to check whether it should have an NJC tag added. And so on. It's horribly easy to see a thread that interests you, dive in with the reply button, and snowball one accidental untagged NJC post into a whole slew, before it gets an NJC tag wrestled back onto the subject line. It's no-one's *fault*, and it certainly doesn't deserve an angry response, so why do we feel like we're trading on eggshells here in the NJC camp? (OK, OK, *I* feel like I'm trading on eggshells, and I know I'm not alone here. And I've only ever posted NJC messages without an NJC tag accidentally, never with purpose.) I sometimes wonder if a better solution would be to explicitly mark Joni content posts with JC. That way, joni-onlies would never get NJC content *unless* a thread gets taken off-topic. And even if a JC post goes out without its tag, with luck, a respondant will quote the original with their reply and add a JC tag in the process, ensuring that the Joni-onlies get to see the response *and* the original message. Of course, with all these JC tags flying about, outsiders may just think we're a bunch of bible thumpers. (With apologies to genuine bible thumpers... this is now tongue in cheek. My own cheek, I should add.) > But you do begin to recognize those posts that are intentionally > sent to all in order to disseminate a person's political ideology. >It is especially irritating when their viewpoints on the unasked-for > issues are different from yours. Because I disagree with much of > the political discussion that goes on, I know that I don't want > this service to involve politics Forgive me for asking this, but... when a message comes through to the Joni-only list, with a subject line that should be NJC, and, say, is clearly political, isn't the delete key the answer? You don't *have* to read every message - vast numbers of us on the NJC list do not read every message, but just surf on by. The politics doesn't interest me either, but I just skip the posts. I could read them, no doubt some of them would make me angry, but I know that, and don't read them. Ergo, I don't get angry. Sorry if that sounds patronising: it's really not meant to be, but I don't understand why you get infuriated when you have a choice. Ye gods. I'm getting analytical. I'll stop now. Regards, - --Chris Marshall chrisAThatstand.org (AIM: Chr15Marshall) "If you're ever lost, I'll beat the world to finding you" Stryngs, "Bobblehats and Beer" Band website, with downloads, at http://www.stryngs.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 23:10:29 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: For the Joni Only List NJC I am sure that the joni onlies are going to love us for discussing the njc/jc thing and not putting njc on the posts! If was a joni only I'd get pissed off too at posts that are deliberately sent without the njc tag. Howevrer, most of them are accidentla. it does seem recently that many posts that should be njc are not marked as such and it makes me cringe. Perhaps I am being paranoid! I am purely being selfish. I love thislist and I don't want Les to have to do anything drastic. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 18:17:17 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: For the Joni Only List --- KJHSF@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/27/2003 4:08:33 PM Eastern > Standard Time, sl.m@shaw.ca > writes: > > > The only real hostility I've seen on this list has > been in posts from > > Joni-only people, pissed off because someone > forgot to put NJC in the > > subject line. > > Hi Sarah! > I really don't think the anger comes because of > people who occasionally > forget. I think the hostility comes when members > decide that their own > political beliefs must be heard by all, and these > posts are even prefaced > with something like "I realize this is NJC, but it's > an issue that concerns > us all etc., etc." That kind of presumption angers > those of us who don't use > this wonderful service for political discussion. Even as one who gets everything, njc and all, and often enjoys the njc stuff more than the jc (blasphemy?) I appreciate and understand this. It would totally piss me off. If I had signed up for joni-only and someone tried to do my thinking for me, and decides what they thought was in my best interest, it would irritate the hell out of me. When you consider that most people (I don't know the percentages but every so often Les posts them) are on the *whole* list (whether as digest or as individual posts), anything you post is going to reach most of us anyway. Whether or not someone reads it is another story. I've been deleting the stuff about war like mad. Likewise if a particular poster seems to be posting about the same thing all the time and it's not a subject that I'm interested in, I will sort either by topic or by sender and delete without reading anything that looks like one of those. In the process, I may delete without reading one or two gems, but that's my choice. Sometimes it gets too busy around here as it is. Most of the jc-only people who post reminders do so politely in any case; sometimes tersely but rarely rudely. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 18:21:11 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: For the Joni Only List This sounds like the most logical solution to the whole thing. --- Chris Marshall wrote: > I sometimes wonder if a better solution would be to > explicitly > mark Joni content posts with JC. That way, > joni-onlies would > never get NJC content *unless* a thread gets taken > off-topic. > > And even if a JC post goes out without its tag, with > luck, > a respondant will quote the original with their > reply and > add a JC tag in the process, ensuring that the > Joni-onlies > get to see the response *and* the original message. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 18:24:54 -0500 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: jan 25!!! NJC i am practicing and sinking incredibly amazing bank and combo shots, and i'm creating stunningly disgusting and dirty insults to preface each one. you are toast!! patricko >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of >Alison E >Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 2:09 AM >To: NortheastJonifest@yahoogroups.com; johnsonjs@earthlink.net; >joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: jan 25!!! NJC > > >JODY!!!!!!!! >I HOPE YOU HAD A GREAT BIRTHDAY! >YES, I'M YELLING! >have a shrimp pizza, and lets count the days till we >kick the asses of those F&%^$(~! try hard pool >"sharks" at the hidden den of iniqity (it's out by >john & bette's, just past the bbq pit and two yards >west of the DUCK! next jonifest. and yes, i am talking >about kay and patrick! challenge! >love you, jody. hope it was great, truly, sorry i'm >late and say hi to scott! that guy! that GREAT guy! >love and kisses, >alison >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. >http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 16:00:59 -0600 (CST) From: courtandspark@earthlink.net Subject: Re: Re: Down To You Bree wrote: Oh..Blue..now I remember. Mack is the one that will rip your tongue out for trashing DED. Well, my sweet friend, I think that is a little severe. lol. Again, apples and oranges. While it has often been said/written that others just 'don't get it' when referring to Joni and her music, I have come to the conclusion that some just 'don't get it' when it comes to DED. The earlier posts mentioned timeless(ness). I would nominate DED for that award since it seems, to me, that it could have been written today; seems to be right on in the situation that we find ourselves. 'while madmen sit up building bombs.' One would suppose that could be Hussein yet I feel as if it could very easily be those in our White House right now. 'Ethiopia.' Now, in Africa, different country, same situation. This is the album of which finally convinced me of the genius of Joni Mitchell. I read the RS review posted by Les the other day and was amazed at how that person didn't 'get it.' This album, that I listen to yet again, has it all, in my opinion. Political, personal, romance, passion, self-introspection. I literally cannot get enough. Last eve listened to HOSL again. Almost had to force myself to sit through it as I found it boring!!! The music wasn't soothing and moved me not; its saving grace was Joni's lyrics. But, again, just my opinion. mack ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:08:46 -0500 From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #69 > It seems to me, if I understand correctly, that what > you are saying is that our genes presdeestine us to be > heterosexual, mainly, but some of carry genese that > although they do the same, are slightly different in > that the environment can makes those genes produce > homsexuality I don't know how this discussion started and I hesitate to jump into the middle of it without reading the entire thread...but, my two-cents-worth is: sexual orientation is not a result of environmental factors. This is just my experience talking, and my feelings: how could feelings so deep and powerful (to the core, baby) be the result of environmental factors? It has go to beyond that. And anyway, as I've long said .... "if you're looking for a cause, then you're looking for a cure." I really don't care what the "cause" is. I am perfectly happy as I am and don't need to the reason or need to prove anything about it...though I realize others feel differently, and perhaps for good reasons. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:17:41 -0500 From: Bruce Kimerer Subject: re: Joni's gay fans Very interesting question, indeed. Why does Joni seem to have a preponderance of gay fans? I say 'seem' because there's no way for me to really know that one way or the other. The number of gay participants in this discussion list may have as much to do with the atmosphere and environment of the list as it does with Joni. Also, gay word of mouth about the list may have resulted in the gay demo here. But still, an intriguing question that has made me look back on why I have loved her work since my first introduction to it. I think there is something there thematically that resonated with me as a gay man (though back then I had yet to acknowledge that fact to myself). Some of the threads in her work that did that: The man that got away -- The constant looking for love that never works out. I remember back in the LOTC, Blue, FTR and C&S days Joni's tumultuous ever-shifting love life was common knowledge among me and my friends. Her persona to me back then was brilliant artist, maybe a little unstable and neurotic (Twisted), who loves and loses yet is never a victim and always moves on. I think this may have told me that it was OK, even admirable, maybe even essential for making great art, to go through life without a lasting love relationship -- a fear of mine at the time. Restless, Rootless, Reckless -- The twin themes of outward and inward traveling, traveling, traveling certainly struck a chord with one who was searching for self in a very fundamental way. And our 'reckless daughter' strikingly verbalized what were some of the experiences of, at least, this gay man -- as recently posted to the list in the lyrics of Down to You: You go down to the pick up station craving warmth and beauty You settle for less than fascination, a few drinks later you're not so choosy Then the closing lights strip off the shadows of this strange new flesh you've found Clutching the night to you like a fig leaf You hurry - to the blackness, and the blankets, to lay down an impression And your loneliness.. OUCH! Any gay man on this list has been THERE, I wager. And that was before we knew that sex could kill more than our spirit. It killed us. Of course, this all may be hogwash. Trying to fit theory to practice after the fact. I mean, I'm as big a fan of Bob Dylan as I am of Joni Mitchell -- and what's the big gay resonator in Dylan's work? I'm sure I could invent something. Bruce PS. I don't believe that TRAGIC is the essential component that makes for a gay female icon. To the contrary, I think it's strength (and superior talent, but that's a given). What makes a Judy Garland or a Barbra Streisand or even a Joni Mitchell especially appealing is the fact that she defies the sexist societal stereotype of female weakness without a man/husband to supply the supposed stability/strength she lacks on her own. As a gay man I can identify with these women because I too have been misjudged by society as somehow being less than strong, less than complete, less than a real man. Our divas showed them wrong. So can I. Long live the Divas! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 16:17:09 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: For the Joni Only List - NJC >> I sometimes wonder if a better solution would be to explicitly mark >> Joni content posts with JC. That way, joni-onlies would never get >> NJC content *unless* a thread gets taken off-topic. > This sounds like the most logical solution to the whole thing. It would be, except for two things: 1) This is first and foremost the Joni Mitchell Discussion List, and (imo) people who wish to read just JC shouldn't be burdened with having to indicate that. The burden (as it were) has been correctly placed on the rest of us. 2) After so many years, most of us have been "trained" to add the NJC tag and it's *almost* become automatic. (In fact, if you really look at the latest spate of non-tagged posts, they've probably come mostly from new subscribers who aren't yet accustomed to using the tag system.) If the filter was changed to recognize a "JC" tag and segregate those posts to Joni-only, but folks continued to use the "NJC" tag, the filter would segregate THOSE posts to Joni-only too. Of course the filter could be set to "space"JC"space" but that's really just making a lot more work for everyone, especially dear, patient Les. AND ... hasn't quite a bit of the griping of late come from folks who normally want to receive all posts but are irritated by the volume of political posts? (I'll admit, I'm guilty for being a big instigator and contributor.) "Nothing can be done" about that unless the rules change and we're no longer allowed to write about anything but Joni and perhaps other music-related stuff. If that happened (and I'm not saying it ever would, because Les has always been a blue ribbon [free speech] kind of guy - in fact I can remember a time when the JMDL home page sported the blue ribbon*), I'd bet a few bucks that we'd see a fair number of folks unsubscribe. I don't know that I'd be one - I doubt it - but my thought is that there's only so much that can be discussed about Joni on any given day. (Shit, our significant others, friends, and coworkers think we're obsessed about her as it is!!) One more time ... let's sing this one together: "Everything comes and goes ..." Lori * for more info on the Blue Ribbon Campaign, see http://www.eff.org/br ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 16:18:56 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: re: Joni's gay fans > OUCH! Any gay man on this list has been THERE, I wager. And that was > before we knew that sex could kill more than our spirit. It killed us. And ... "Sex Kills" Lori ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:12:24 -0800 (PST) From: Darice Subject: Crosby and others (NJC) Oneof my fondest memories is of attending a reception after CSN did a show at the FIllmore in SF. All three were available at the reception and had a few words for each person. I was standing by he essert buffet taqble, contemplating the extra calories, when a voice behind me suggested the "Turtle brownies", saying they were the best on the buffet. I turned to see that it was Crosby and spent the next few minutes extoling the virtues of chocolate. On the other hand, I still have a vivid memory of Neil Young (from about 1967) stciking his head out of the car window and yelling at the people in the lot to "get the F... out of my way." I fear that my view of Neil as a person was unduly influenced by this encounter. I have spoken with Crosby since , in passing, and found him to be personable, bright and sweet. I am looking forward to a show in March with CSN... at my local venue Konocti and will report all encounters. Darice ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:39:39 -0500 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: the GAY card Finally! A good, logical assessment. Heather - an evolved lover of Joni's music ;-) ________________ MICHAEL in Toronto P.S. I have to agree with Andrew: most gay people I know are either indifferent to Joni or openly contemptuous -- just like most straight people I know. (sigh) As always, I'm convinced that those of us who love her so much (male of female, gay or straight, white or black or any other colour) are simply more highly evolved. ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:42:41 -0500 From: vince Subject: Joni's gay fans???? Does Joni actually have a preponderance of gay fans? Who the hell knows? Does Joni have more gay fans than CSN&Y, or Britney Spears, or N'Sync, or Jay-Z or Bryn Terfel or Etta James or B2K or Metallica? I have no clue. There has been no statistical sampling or research that I have seen. Has the overall fan base of Joni's fans been compared to what the research tells us about the population of fans who are on an internet discussion list? Or an internet discussion list devoted to music? Do we even know what the actual percentage of the world's population is that is gay/lesbian? Have we compared the demographics of Joni's fans versus education, income, or other variables? And since the population of internet users is probably skewered as apart from the total population because internet access does depend on income, is it possible that the percentage of internet users is higher than than the % of gays/lesbians in the total population? Do g/l people use the internet even more disproportionately because it is a vehicle for hooking up for a community that is dispersed, closeted, or remote? There are many many variables that have not been examined. I look at the population that I have seen at three Joni concerts and there was nothing specifically extraordinarily gay/lesbian about that audience (that I could discern by anecdote without statistical sampling) nor have I ever once heard a Joni song played in a gay or lesbian bar. So this discussion has been based on a most non verified assumption. I have no clue whether Joni's fan base is disproportionately gay/lesbian as opposed to the general population as a whole. Not to say that the discussion wasn't interesting but all anyone offers as to the truth of the proposition is how it seems to them by encountering people in here, and that does not make a valid foundation for conjecture. I know that I am being an asshole. But I am. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:44:56 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Today in History: January 28 > 1974: The album "Court and Spark" was released > > Yes, Happy Birthday C&S. If it weren't for the radio play of "Help Me" and "Free Man in Paris", I would never had bought C&S. Had I not bought C&S, I would never had discovered Joni Mitchell. Had I never discovered Joni Mitchell, I would never had found JoniMithcell.com. Had I never discovered JM.Com, I would never had known about the JMDL. Had I never known about the JMDL, I would have never gone to a Jonifest and met so many fucking weirdos :~).................just kidding of course. C&S has a dear spot in my life. When Mags first joined the list we had a couple of private emails about C&S. I encouraged her not to be shy, and post to the list about C&S. Had I not done that, she and Brian wouldn't be married today. So there :~PPP Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:53:41 -0500 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: Joni's gay fans???? Gee ... someone cut me off in traffic today nearly causing an accident and I called that person an asshole. It wasn't you, was it Vince? ;-) Heather - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of vince Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 7:43 PM Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: Joni's gay fans???? Does Joni actually have a preponderance of gay fans? Who the hell knows? Does Joni have more gay fans than CSN&Y, or Britney Spears, or N'Sync, or Jay-Z or Bryn Terfel or Etta James or B2K or Metallica? I have no clue. There has been no statistical sampling or research that I have seen. Has the overall fan base of Joni's fans been compared to what the research tells us about the population of fans who are on an internet discussion list? Or an internet discussion list devoted to music? Do we even know what the actual percentage of the world's population is that is gay/lesbian? Have we compared the demographics of Joni's fans versus education, income, or other variables? And since the population of internet users is probably skewered as apart from the total population because internet access does depend on income, is it possible that the percentage of internet users is higher than than the % of gays/lesbians in the total population? Do g/l people use the internet even more disproportionately because it is a vehicle for hooking up for a community that is dispersed, closeted, or remote? There are many many variables that have not been examined. I look at the population that I have seen at three Joni concerts and there was nothing specifically extraordinarily gay/lesbian about that audience (that I could discern by anecdote without statistical sampling) nor have I ever once heard a Joni song played in a gay or lesbian bar. So this discussion has been based on a most non verified assumption. I have no clue whether Joni's fan base is disproportionately gay/lesbian as opposed to the general population as a whole. Not to say that the discussion wasn't interesting but all anyone offers as to the truth of the proposition is how it seems to them by encountering people in here, and that does not make a valid foundation for conjecture. I know that I am being an asshole. But I am. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:57:50 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's gay fans???? njc really In a message dated 29/01/2003 00:43:49 GMT Standard Time, revrvl@chartermi.net writes: << Have we compared the demographics of Joni's fans versus education, income, or other variables? And since the population of internet users is probably skewered as apart from the total population because internet access does depend on income, is it possible that the percentage of internet users is higher than than the % of gays/lesbians in the total population? Do g/l people use the internet even more disproportionately because it is a vehicle for hooking up for a community that is dispersed, closeted, or remote? >> Just another thought on this: my understanding is that the majority of list subscribers are lurkers - I wonder if the proportion of gay people amongst those who post to the list is reflected in the list as a whole; and what would it mean if it wasn't? Does an element of outspokenness come into the equation too? By the way, I've never understood the pervasiveness of the slightly unwieldy term "lesbians and gay men" (or vice versa) - surely "gay people" would cover it, as I didn't think the word gay was gender specific. Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 20:04:04 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: NJC etiquette One thing that amuses me sometimes about when people accidentally post njc stuff without tagging it thus - there must be a little internal debate about whether to tag the apology NJC, so as not to add to the weight of njc stuff joni-onlies have to wade through - or leave the tag off so that those most likely to have been irked by the original mistake at least get the benefit of the sinner's contrition. I'm with Disraeli here: "Never apologise, never explain." ;-) Sigh, life is so complicated... Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 20:16:16 -0500 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: NJC etiquette I went and kneeled in front of my Joni CD's, LP's and my complete poems and lyrics book (that so many of you have signed). I lit some incense and said three 'hail joni's' and four 'our jmdl' Can I please be forgiven? Heather - who will try to be more careful - thank you for the reminder - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of AzeemAK@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 8:04 PM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: NJC etiquette One thing that amuses me sometimes about when people accidentally post njc stuff without tagging it thus - there must be a little internal debate about whether to tag the apology NJC, so as not to add to the weight of njc stuff joni-onlies have to wade through - or leave the tag off so that those most likely to have been irked by the original mistake at least get the benefit of the sinner's contrition. I'm with Disraeli here: "Never apologise, never explain." ;-) Sigh, life is so complicated... Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 20:16:12 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: David Crosby-CPR concert now NJC Kate wrote: << another thought to illustrate the pre & post show emotional space of many performers... >> and Bob wrote: <> You're such a sweetie Bob, and LOL on the Sting encounter. I forgot all about that one. For the record, let me explain a little further about Crosby. I do not think the anti-rejection drugs had anything to do with his behavior (although I'm not an authority on the subject). Kate, I do agree that most artists prior to their concert, and especially during a sound check would not want to be bothered. CPR showed up at 4:00 for the sound check, and Crosby was only up on stage for a brief time. Long enough to be a DIVA and embarass Pevar. There were 6 hours (which we hung around) before the band played. As I said before, this was a *small* bar. There weren't any people around except for bar employees, my friend Mingus, his sweet nephew Jeff, and me. It wasn't as if we were 3 teenage girls screaming at his feet. We gave him PLENTY of space, and approached him only when we thought it was an appropriate time. Ming's nephew politely asked if he was giving autographs AFTER the show. It was another "Nah". We even heard him ask for disinfectant (in front of the manager) when he went in the so called dressing room. I'm sorry, but if you want to keep fans, you need to show some respect...........(especially when you're given a second chance on life.) I'll still give him some leeway and say he was just having a bad day, that butthole. :~) He still sings great !!! Jimmy ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #70 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)