From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #69 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, January 28 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 069 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Joni, Crosby [Thomas Ross ] more on Counting Crows BYT cover ["Tamsin Lucas" ] Gay's interest in Joni, vljc ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: David Crosby-CPR concert (njc) [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Today in History: January 28 [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #65 [MARBOLI79@aol.com] Re: Being Gay, njc ["kasey simpson" ] Tr: Concentration Camp, njc ["Laurent Olszer" ] Concentration Camps, njc ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: Today in History: January 28 ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: Being Gay, njc [colin ] camp survivor NJC [colin ] RE: Concentration Camp, njc ["Jerry Notaro" ] RE: Being Gay, njc [Steve Polifka ] Re: Today in History: January 28 [Steve Polifka ] Re: New illness - financial phobia NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Symphony Space Event [Jenny Goodspeed ] Re: Gays' interest in Joni and splitting up the list further [Chris Marsh] Re: Being Gay, njc [colin ] Re: Symphony Space Event [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Today in History: January 28 [Susan Guzzi ] Re: Today in History: January 28 ["Bree Mcdonough" ] David Crosby-CPR concert (VLJC) ["Kate Bennett" ] one more thing... [] RE: David Crosby-CPR concert now NJC ["Kate Bennett" Subject: Joni, Crosby I heard JM sing 'Summertime' with Brian Blade 2-3 summers ago near Bethel, NY. The rhythm was LOST (I've played this song professionally for decades!)! but Blade played some pretty cymbal colors and it came off as a very unswinging and impressionistic version. Crosby sponsored my first album, Horse of Stone, and I've always been grateful to him for it. CPR is a solid band although vocally not too strong, at least the time I heard them. Pevar and Raymond are both monster players. Croz's writing is good as usual. Tom Ross Mijazi Music (518) 372-2611 http://www.tom.rossweb.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:18:41 +0000 From: "Tamsin Lucas" Subject: more on Counting Crows BYT cover Being as I listen to Radio 2 most of the day (the only music my colleagues and I can usually agree on) I am hearing the Counting Crows/Vanessa Carlton version a couple of times a day - Ken Bruce just played it and commented "an improvement on the original if you ask me..." at the end. _________________________________________________________________ Use MSN Messenger to send music and pics to your friends http://messenger.msn.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 07:04:08 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: David Crosby-CPR concert njc In a message dated 1/28/03 12:49:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, guitarzan@direcpc.com writes: > 4) he was having a bad day > 5) he's an asshole > Randy, I'll go with 4 or 5, but I don't buy the rest. Enjoy the concert. Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 07:08:10 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: New illness - financial phobia NJC --- sl.m@shaw.ca wrote: > Researchers at Cambridge University in England have > identified a new > phobia - "financial phobia" > In my case, this was > being a student > and going to the cash machine (ATM) ONE day after my > grant had > arrived -- which was supposed to last me for three > months -- and > being told I already had an unauthorized overdraft, > meaning I had > already spent my next three months' worth of money > before I had even , and it has definitely affected me. > Even now, if I > know I have money in an account, if I have to use an > ATM, I stand > there shaking, waiting for that same old horrible > message to appear, > or a hand to reach out and grab me because I still > owe Barclays money > for their overdraft letters. I've been there for the last seven years or so. Sometimes when I go to get cash from the ATM, I feel like I'm playing the slot machines, or like it's Russian roulette and I *might* get enough cash out for groceries, but more likely the thing's going to blow up or something. However I've just renegotiated my mortgage and I *think* I might be able to live like a so-called normal human being again - but I'm so used to being hit over the head that I figure it's still going to happen. Like it's a dangerous thing to get too optimistic about anything because there's always a new twist. I cringe just thinking about this stuff. Lately it's got to the point where, if I do have extra money any given day, I want to spend it all to celebrate. It never used to be that way. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 07:08:10 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: New illness - financial phobia NJC --- sl.m@shaw.ca wrote: > Researchers at Cambridge University in England have > identified a new > phobia - "financial phobia" > In my case, this was > being a student > and going to the cash machine (ATM) ONE day after my > grant had > arrived -- which was supposed to last me for three > months -- and > being told I already had an unauthorized overdraft, > meaning I had > already spent my next three months' worth of money > before I had even , and it has definitely affected me. > Even now, if I > know I have money in an account, if I have to use an > ATM, I stand > there shaking, waiting for that same old horrible > message to appear, > or a hand to reach out and grab me because I still > owe Barclays money > for their overdraft letters. I've been there for the last seven years or so. Sometimes when I go to get cash from the ATM, I feel like I'm playing the slot machines, or like it's Russian roulette and I *might* get enough cash out for groceries, but more likely the thing's going to blow up or something. However I've just renegotiated my mortgage and I *think* I might be able to live like a so-called normal human being again - but I'm so used to being hit over the head that I figure it's still going to happen. Like it's a dangerous thing to get too optimistic about anything because there's always a new twist. I cringe just thinking about this stuff. Lately it's got to the point where, if I do have extra money any given day, I want to spend it all to celebrate. It never used to be that way. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 12:39:49 -0000 From: ReckersL@ebrd.com Subject: Gays' interest in Joni and splitting up the list further I hope I am right in thinking this post has enough Joni content, I first put NJC on top but then took it out - do tell me if you think I'm wrong! Chris Marshall wrote: I've spent an unhealthy amount of time navel-gazing, analyzing what's going on in my head, analyzing what I want out of life, analyzing my emotions, and so on. I've come to the conclusion that Joni appeals to a large amount of GLBT folk because many of these people have been through the same process, are going through it, or are aware that they should, and end up empathising so strongly with her lyrics. Anyone with me on this one? :) - --Chris Marshall My reply: yes Chris, I'm very much with you on that one. At least in this way: I think we are all pretty introspective and emotionally intelligent on this list, and that is one of the things that keeps us together. In fact, it is because I identify so much with the struggle most gays have to go through (because I have had my own struggles for different reasons) that I am probably, if anything, "prejudiced" in favour of gays. I feel that by being honest about their sexuality in spite of so much opposition, they have often reached a maturity and understanding of life that appeals to me. And I am convinced it is this type of (gay or otherwise) person that discovers this list and sticks with it, because it really suits them. And Joni's texts affirm that. And speaking for myself, what attracted me most to Joni's music to start off with (and probably still does) is the music itself, not the lyrics, wonderful as they are. Albums like Hejira and THOSL first of all draw me for their sound. It is a subtle, complex sound, full of moods which again will attract a more sensitive sort of person, in my opinion. But on the other hand, I think if you did a survey of people who have bought Joni Mitchell records over the years, I think the gay percentage will be much lower than on this list, because I think her music is not of the typical "gay diva" type which seems to attract the biggest gay followings. I could well be wrong, but that's my impression. And quickly something else: I agree with Patrick Leader, I would hate to see people using further subsections of lists to discuss certain subjects. Quite simply: I would never get to them, and be very sorry to be missing out! This does not mean I really do read everything, I do need to sometimes scan and scroll through, but at least I know WHAT I am missing! I would hope that everybody who sees subjects of no interest could just press the delete button without too much bother. This is not an argument against the JC-NJC split, that seems to make good sense if some people want to cut back that drastically what they receive, but for those of us who have agreed to accept wider posts, I think we will just get into cliques and disappear if we go off on sub-lists! Lots of love to you al, Lieve. ______________________________________________________________ This message may contain privileged information. If you have received this message by mistake, please keep it confidential and return it to the sender. Although we have taken steps to minimise the risk of transmitting software viruses, the EBRD accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by computer viruses and would advise you to carry out your own virus checks. The contents of this e-mail do not necessarily represent the views of the EBRD. ______________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 14:33:02 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Concentration Camp, njc > Subject: "Concrete concentration camp..." > > On this day, 57 years ago, the Auschwitz-Birkenau death camp was liberated by the Russian army. Many view today as a day to commemorate the victims and survivors of the Holocaust. Delete it if you must. > I'm puzzled with your dates here. Surely, in can't be 57 years ago which would be january 1946. 58 years ago would be january 1945. Still that sounds very early since war ended on May 8th. My father was liberated by a drunk russian who took the wrong turn at a crossroad and, not knowing where he was headed, pushed the camp door open with his tank. That was on May 10th, 2 "extra" days. For the record, as the red army was approaching, the camp officers decided to transfer the inmates to Terensienstadt from Buchenwald. So they stuffed everybody on cattle wagons and the transfer lasted 21 days, yes 21, during which they had of course no food and over 90% of them died. My father (aged 18 in 1945) had to be carried out and he said he wouldn't have survived one more day. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 14:43:29 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Gay's interest in Joni, vljc I believe gay's as a group are more educated and into the arts, so it's only logical that a fair share would be attracted to the queen. I mean it, not trying to kiss 'ass' here. My close gay friend hates Joni, but that's more to tease me than anything else. He loves opera, divas and Aretha (females only). Last time I showed him PWWAM, he joked that Joni is so wrinkled now that perhaps I could have a chance! I've been enduring this kind of jokes from him for 25 years, so now I can appreciate Murph's humor. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 08:47:30 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: David Crosby-CPR concert (njc) kakki wrote: And congratulations on you and Jerry's and Floridian's Bucs win! I was very > happy for you! Not that I'm into football, but hey! > > Kakki Thanks. I went to the stadium last night for the big hoopla. The people here have been so proud and respectful, unlike our Oakland counterparts. That was painful to watch. I have 3 souvenir newspaper of the win, if anyone on the list are maniacs about football memorabilia. If you are interested, write me. Sorry Joni Onlys! Jerry np: Lyoyd Price - Stagger Lee ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 08:55:00 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Concentration Camp, njc Laurent Olszer wrote: > > For the record, as the red army was approaching, the camp officers decided > to transfer the inmates to Terensienstadt from Buchenwald. So they stuffed > everybody on cattle wagons and the transfer lasted 21 days, yes 21, during > which they had of course no food and over 90% of them died. My father (aged > 18 in 1945) had to be carried out and he said he wouldn't have survived one > more day. We have a wonderful Holocaust Museum here in St. Petersburg. One of the recurring themes of the survivors is that they prayed for the Americans to rescue them before the Russians. Your father is living proof of that hope. Laurent, I hope you father's experiences are preserved somewhere for posterity. Thank you for sharing it with us. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:27:16 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Today in History: January 28 > 1974: The album "Court and Spark" was released Happy Birthday to you, Happy Birthday to you Happy Birthday, Court & Spaaaaaaaaark, Happy Birthday to you!!!! Almost 30, yet with the playfulness of youth and the wisdom of age. I was 'aware' of Joni Mitchell prior to C&S, but it wasn't until I heard "Help Me", "Raised On Robbery", "Free Man In Paris" on the FM radio (and played repeatedly in my High School cafeteria on our own radio station WSHS) that I knew that there SOMETHING more to this singer/songwriter named Joni Mitchell. So I bought the LP, and holy cow!! The best stuff wasn't even getting played on the radio!...the run from "People's Parties" to "Down To You" just blew my 16 year-old mind. I didn't understand it, but knew that I wanted to. I DID know, however, that sonically this record was a pure work of art. We can all probably recite them by HEART in order, but let's look at the tracklisting: Court And Spark Help Me Free Man In Paris People's Parties The Same Situation Car On A Hill Down To You Just Like This Train Raised On Robbery Trouble Child Twisted There's not a false nanosecond on this record! And it was one where Joni's tastes and the record-buying public's tastes were perfectly aligned. Anyway, thanks to Joni for this 'birthday present'...and to this community where I can write this sort of stuff and be understood. Bob, flashing back to Chris O'Neill's basement where we would play C&S over & over... NP: Kevin Gilbert, "Tea For One" (live) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:28:37 EST From: MARBOLI79@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #65 non, je plaisantais ! je voulais voir si quelqu'un allait riagir, vu que ga parle pas mal anglais par ici. La preuve... non, je corrige, let me rectify : JONI MITCHELL'S SIMPLY THE BEST ! VIVE JONI ! LONGUE CARRIERE A JONI ! MERCI POUR TOUT, JONI ! EN FRANCE AUSSI, ON S'EMBRASSE SUR LES AVENUES ! EN FRANCE AUSSI, ON AIME JONI ! I JUST WISHED SHE WAS KNOWN HERE IN FRANCE A BIT MORE, THAT'S ALL SORRY FOR THOSE WHO UNDERSTAND FRENCH ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:44:45 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Re: Being Gay, njc 1) If you identify as lesbian, gay, or bisexual how old were you when you "knew" you were attracted (emotionally, physically, or both) to the same gender as yourself? I knew at 14, came out at 17, should have known at 5. My first 'crush' was Annett on the Mickey Mouse Club. My second 'crush' was my third grade teacher, bleached blond, red lipstick, and a Tenn. twang that sent me over the edge. Colin, you said homosexuality was normal, well for us it is, but it isn't the norm. I have no problem with being different. But I do agree it's funny that homosexuals are so often questioned on their sexuality. How many gays have heard the expression, "You just haven't met the right man/woman." or "Have you tried the other sex?" I always reply the same can go for you. It usually ends the conversation. I guess on that continuum I am at the total lesbian end. I'm not a man hater, but the thought of sex with a man makes me physically ill. No offence to the men. I just can't handle the thought of it, let alone do it. Now this is going to sound strange but I'm saying it any way.....I've always thought of a penis as a weapon stabbing at it's prey, where as a women's' pluming is open and accepting. Weird I know, but it's that damn lesbian mind set. KaseyGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:53:11 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Tr: Concentration Camp, njc > We have a wonderful Holocaust Museum here in St. Petersburg. One of the > recurring themes of the survivors is that they prayed for the Americans to > rescue them before the Russians. Your father is living proof of that hope. > Laurent, I hope you father's experiences are preserved somewhere for posterity. > Thank you for sharing it with us. > > Jerry Gee I was in St Pete a few years ago, saw the great Dali museum in Tampa. What you say is true. However in this case the tankist just busted the door open and left. So the inmates gathered their last strength and went on the road in search for food. Many died of overeating since their body had to slowly readjust to eating food. Yes my father was taped for the Simon Wiesenthal center a few years ago. So the videos are there for posterity. 6 months later, he was still in a hospital eating omelettes made with 24 eggs, 3 times a day, and always hungry. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:56:31 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Concentration Camps, njc Vince clarified the dates thing, thanks. Auschwitz was liberated in January, I believe, it was in Poland which Soviet troops reached weeks/months before German territory was broached. Doing this without looking it up - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:52:33 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Today in History: January 28 Amazingly...is sounds as fresh and as good as it did thirty years ago. (I loved you thirty years ago) I get spine tingling chills even now..just thinking about that very first piano note. Not a wasted note ..breath anywhere... Classic in the true sense of the word! Bree >Happy Birthday to you >Happy Birthday, Court & Spaaaaaaaaark, >Happy Birthday to you!!!! > >Almost 30, yet with the playfulness of youth and the wisdom of age. I was >'aware' of Joni Mitchell prior to C&S, but it wasn't until I heard "Help >Me", "Raised On Robbery", "Free Man In Paris" on the FM radio (and played >repeatedly in my High School cafeteria on our own radio station WSHS) that >I knew that there SOMETHING more to this singer/songwriter named Joni >Mitchell. > >Anyway, thanks to Joni for this 'birthday present'...and to this community >where I can write this sort of stuff and be understood. > >Bob, flashing back to Chris O'Neill's basement where we would play C&S over >& over... > >NP: Kevin Gilbert, "Tea For One" (live) _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 08:54:32 -0600 From: Steve Polifka Subject: Re: Being Gay, njc At 03:05 PM 1/27/03 -0800, you wrote: >On discovering his gayness, Smurf admits: > >> It was fairly recent, and I'll never forget it. It was at Jonifest >> 2000, when I first met Bob Muller. > >And on discovering his "inner Ethel": > >> Gee, that was even more recent, and also at a Jonifest > > >So are you saying what I think you're saying?? > >JONIFESTS TURN PEOPLE GAY! > >Lori Now Lori, Look at Bob Muller... ;-P It just doesn't work that way... It must take QUITE A FEW Jonifests! (hi Bob! Luv ya!) xoxo Steve Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:09:07 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Being Gay, njc kasey simpson wrote: > > Colin, you said homosexuality was normal, well > for us it is, but it isn't the norm. I understand what you mean. i emant it is as normal as being red haired or left handed. > I have no problem with > being different. nor me. in fact sameness horrifies me! > I'm > not a man hater, but the thought of sex with a man makes me > physically ill. No offence to the men. No offence taken. I feel more or less the same about women. You smell different. talking of smelling different, dogs sniff your crotch to see if you are male or female. interestingly, dogs who don't like men usually like me and don't like John. My guess is that it is the phromones(same reason i think women smell funny). Oh don't misunderstand, i am not sying women smell like they haven't washed. that is NOT what i mean. It is ahrd to define what the smell is-it isn't make up(tho i don't like that either), it is somehting more subtle. > Now this is going to sound strange > but I'm saying it any way.....I've always thought of a penis as > a weapon stabbing at it's prey, funny, I think of it as pleasure tool........ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:13:14 +0000 From: colin Subject: camp survivor NJC When we lived in Aussie, we had a family friend who was a Polish jew and had 'survived' the camps. he suffered terribly form flashbacks. He shook most of the time, his hands could barely hold a cup of tea and ofetn he would just cry for no apparent reason(thoof course there was a reason). He was a broken man. Today, it would have been recognised that he suffered from PTSD. I have never forgotten him nor the sick feeling the memories give me. It is so sad that this sort of cruelty has not ceased. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:14:43 -0500 From: "Jerry Notaro" Subject: RE: Concentration Camp, njc - -----Original Message----- From: Laurent Olszer [mailto:olszer@xlsecurity.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 10:53 AM To: joni@smoe.org Cc: notaro@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu Subject: Tr: Concentration Camp, njc Gee I was in St Pete a few years ago, saw the great Dali museum in Tampa. It is in St. Petersburg. Sure wish I would have "known" you then. My office overlooks the water and the Dali museum. I'm right next door. What you say is true. However in this case the tankist just busted the door open and left. So the inmates gathered their last strength and went on the road in search for food. Many died of overeating since their body had to slowly readjust to eating food. Yes my father was taped for the Simon Wiesenthal center a few years ago. So the videos are there for posterity. Ted Koppel was here last week to interview Mr. Wiesenthal for Nightline. I hope you got to see it last week. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 07:19:19 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: Being Gay, njc It seems to me, if I understand correctly, that what you are saying is that our genes presdeestine us to be heterosexual, mainly, but some of carry genese that although they do the same, are slightly different in that the environment can makes those genes produce homsexuality. Wow, not at all Colin. It's tough communicating through email, I realize, but you extrapolated a lot from my original statement. I simply never said that nor much of anything you responded to below I am simply saying (and others have pointed out) that the incidence of a trait in sibilings is not direct proof that the trait is genetic as you say because you can't take the environment out of that situation. For all I care we could have been talking about IQ or introversion/extroversion. You are assuming I think sexual orientation is due to environmental factors - actually you are assuming I think homosexuality is due to child-rearing - I honestly don't think in terms of the "cause" of homosexuality - and take care to frame what I have written in terms of the nature of sexual orientation (not preference - because it is not a choice) for all people - hetero and homosexual. As I stated in another email I believe sexual orientation is influenced by genetic and environmental factors and depending on the person, that influence can be 90% genetic and 10% environment or 50/50 or whatever. I believe whole-heartedly in your belief that you and your siblings' homosexuality was soley genetically determined. I believe that about many dear friends of mine. But that is not the case for everybody. And I do agree environment is not simply "child-rearing" and indeed is used as a catchall for anything and everything that is not inherited through a specific gene - this can be environment in the womb that effects brain development, that has nothing to do with parenting. So I think maybe you have me mixed up with someone else. ;) And if I sound a little emotional, please forgive me, I was just taken aback by the assumptions you made about me and what I believe. We agree more than you think - I just take exception to your using siblings as evidence for the heritability of a complex trait like sexuality. Jenny - --- colin wrote: > > > > > > Siblings share half their genes and most of their > environment (at least in the home). It is impossible > to tease the environment out of the equation in that > situation. > > > perhaps so. However, people are DIFFERENT and react > differently. Are oyu > really suggesting that inm ym case, 3 gay brothers, > or in my firiends > cae, 5 gay siblings, that we all are the same which > made us react the same? > Also, if the situation is as you think it is, it > applies equally to > heterosexuals. as heterosexuals far out number > homsosexuals, are to to > assume that their environments were the same? what > is the environment > that creates a heterosexual? Having two heterosexual > parents who stayed > together and raised them? That can't be right. Not > least because many > homosexuals had the same. Or maybe it is having > conforming to stereotype > mothers and fathersi.e fem mothers and butch > fathers. There are many > many str8 people who come from single parent homes > and also from no > parent homes. There are many str8 people who had > fathers who were > distant and cold who withheld their love. Yet they > turned out straight. > Equally many who had dominering, cloying mothers who > turned out str8. > There are many str8 people who were sexually abused > by the same or > opposite sex. > Ormaybe it was soemthing in the water? > > What exactly is meant by 'environment'? It seems to > me a catch all word > and have never had an explanation of what it means. > Is there a way to > raise children to make sure they are the sexuality > that is wanted? > > I do think that 'environment', or at least my > interpretation of it as > experience, can dictate sexual tastes-ie. many > people who were spanked > as children either domestically or at school, > develop a sexual fetish > for it as adults. The fetish shared by adult babies > has a fairly obvious > root in experience. Any number of fetishes can > probably all be rooted in > experience. > > i just cannot see how how ones sexual preference for > the same or the > oppostie sex can be. it makes no sense to me. One > wouldn't expect > siblings to have the same views on life, or > contsructs about anyhting, > just ebcause they grew up in the same environment. > Apart which, I think > it is wrong to assume that just because siblings > grew up within the same > home that there environemtns were the same. perhaps > their physical > environment was the same. certainly their emotional > envrironment would > not have been the same because we are all different, > we all interpret > experience differently, we create different > meanings. > > There is also an assumption in this that something > went wrong in either > the genes or the envrironment that casues > homosexuality. i don't think so. > > It seems to me, if I understand correctly, that what > you are saying is > that our genes presdeestine us to be heterosexual, > mainly, but some of > carry genese that although they do the same, are > slightly different in > that the environment can makes those genes produce > homsexuality. when > you consider that 90% of the pop is str8, i don't > think that washes either. > > IF gay people are produced by having faulty parents, > does that mean that > str8's have perfect parents? > > I don't know the answer, these are really just > thoughts and questions. > My gut tells me that sexual preference for the same > or opposite sex is > inborn. > My guts also tells me it does not matter how we came > to be what we > are(only in the case of sex preference-i think how > we come to be the > people we are is very improtant-it helps in personal > growth and > undertsanding and comspassion etc) > > In the end, I know only that I have never had my > knees wobble, my spine > tingle, my heart sing, my mind swim, my penis get > hard at the sight of a > woman. And no amount of asking why or knowing why > will change that.(tho > of course one should never say never!) Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:40:33 -0600 From: Steve Polifka Subject: RE: Being Gay, njc At 10:07 AM 1/28/03 -0500, you wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Steve >Polifka >Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 9:55 AM >To: Lori Fye >Cc: joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: Being Gay, njc > >Now Lori, > Look at Bob Muller... ;-P > >It just doesn't work that way... It must take QUITE A FEW Jonifests! > >(hi Bob! Luv ya!) > >------------------------------------ > >Well he DOES hum show tunes after just 3 Jonifests. > >Jerry :) > Yes, but I think it depends on WHAT show tunes he's humming!!! ;-) Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:54:40 -0600 From: Steve Polifka Subject: Re: Today in History: January 28 - ->>Happy Birthday to you >>Happy Birthday, Court & Spaaaaaaaaark, >>Happy Birthday to you!!!! >> I did not get Court and Spark until April of '74, and none of my friends liked it, except for Kim who turned me on to Joni's lyrics for that past year in HS.(I will always be grateful to her for that.) I used to lay down on the floor with a pillow in front of my sister's stereo and close my eyes and let my mind dive into those sonics... notes and words and meanings... I eneded up doing a huge painting of Joni from that picture inside C & S for Kim for graduation... Steve - -- Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:03:44 -0500 From: Merk54@aol.com Subject: Re: Bob's epiphany "my old man"...and "for free" In a message dated 1/26/2003 1:15:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, hvnphun16@hotmail.com writes: > then plot out the notes from Howard's transcription to the > piano keys > and "magic" will happen! I must have missed this. How does someone get a copy of Howard's Transcription of For Free? Thanks. Jack ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:17:37 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Bob's epiphany "my old man"...and "for free" In a message dated 1/28/2003 11:04:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, Merk54@aol.com writes: > How does someone get a copy of Howard's Transcription of For Free? > Jack, go to : http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/forfree-hw-p.cfm Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:18:38 -0500 From: "Christopher Treacy" Subject: Symphony Space Event While I was away on vacation 2 weeks ago somebody posted about an event at Symphony Space in New York in late March entitled "Wall To Wall Joni Mitchell" - - it's free, and begins at 11am. I'm just wondering if anyone knows exactly what the event IS; the link that was in the original post leads to a rather cryptic description, and I'm thinking of taking a (very) early morning bus down to NYC for it. Before I get my ass up at the crack of dawn and ride on a nasty bus for 4 hours, I'd like to know a little more about what I can expect. Is it just a really long tribute show?? Any ideas gang? - -Chris, unable to voice his opinion on the JMDL without seemingly pissing people off. NP: Bjork, Venus As A Boy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:49:46 -0500 From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: New illness - financial phobia NJC Catherine writes: << Sometimes when I go to get cash from the ATM, I feel like I'm playing the slot machines, or like it's Russian roulette and I *might* get enough cash out for groceries, but more likely the thing's going to blow up or something. >> One of my favorite New Yorker cartoons shows a guy standing in front of an ATM with the ATM's screen reading, "GAME OVER." - --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:21:59 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: Symphony Space Event Chris (who did not piss me off ; ) ), I don't know many details, but found out that Luciana Souza (who's latest album is on my best for 2002 list) is in the line-up! So I did a search to see if I could find anyone else and came up with: David Krakauer Mingus Big Band Greg Osby Is anyone familiar with these artists? For an idea about what a wall to wall concert is like here's a link to a review of the Miles Davis wall to wall: http://www.jazztimes.com/live_walltowall-miles.cfm I'm thinking of going down to NYC myself! Jenny - --- Christopher Treacy wrote: > While I was away on vacation 2 weeks ago somebody > posted about an event at > Symphony Space in New York in late March entitled > "Wall To Wall Joni Mitchell" > - it's free, and begins at 11am. > > I'm just wondering if anyone knows exactly what the > event IS; the link that > was in the original post leads to a rather cryptic > description, and I'm > thinking of taking a (very) early morning bus down > to NYC for it. Before I get > my ass up at the crack of dawn and ride on a nasty > bus for 4 hours, I'd like > to know a little more about what I can expect. Is it > just a really long > tribute show?? > > Any ideas gang? > -Chris, unable to voice his opinion on the JMDL > without seemingly pissing > people off. > > NP: Bjork, Venus As A Boy Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 17:33:46 +0000 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: Gays' interest in Joni and splitting up the list further Apologies for quoting quite a bit here, and I hope this is still considered "JC" (if not, ack, I'm in trouble :) Lieve said: > I hope I am right in thinking this post has enough Joni content, I > first put > NJC on top but then took it out - do tell me if you think I'm wrong! > > Chris Marshall wrote: I've spent an unhealthy amount of time > navel-gazing, > analyzing what's going on in my head, analyzing what I want out of > life, > analyzing my emotions, and so on. I've come to the conclusion that Joni > appeals to a large amount of GLBT folk because many of these people > have > been through the same process, are going through it, or are aware that > they > should, and end up empathising so strongly with her lyrics. Anyone > with me > on this one? :) - --Chris Marshall > > My reply: yes Chris, I'm very much with you on that one. At least in > this > way: I think we are all pretty introspective and emotionally > intelligent on > this list, and that is one of the things that keeps us together. Lieve hit the nail on the head in a way I'd meant to, but failed to get across... I also think that we are *all* pretty emotionally tuned-in here, even if that doesn't mean emotionally sorted. The extra part of my theory is that a greater *proportion* of gay people are tuned in to their emotions than straight people, hence the apparent gay vs. straight imbalance on this list. There, that's what I meant to say first time around... - --Chris Marshall chrisAThatstand.org (AIM: Chr15Marshall) "If you're ever lost, I'll beat the world to finding you" Stryngs, "Bobblehats and Beer", http://www.stryngs.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 17:39:02 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Being Gay, njc Jenny Goodspeed wrote: > > It seems to me, if I understand correctly, that what >you are saying is that our genes presdeestine us to be >heterosexual, mainly, but some of carry genese that >although they do the same, are slightly different in >that the environment can makes those genes produce >homsexuality. > >Wow, not at all Colin. It's tough communicating >through email, I realize, but you extrapolated a lot >from my original statement. I simply never said that >nor much of anything you responded to below > which is why I wrote : I don't know the answer, these are really just thoughts and questions. in the vain hope you or anyone else wouldn't feel attacked. > >I am simply saying (and others have pointed out) that >the incidence of a trait in sibilings is not direct >proof that the trait is genetic as you say > No not as I say. I didn't say that. I said it indicates. i nowhere said it was proof. > because you >can't take the environment out of that situation. > I would veyr much like to know what people mean by environment. A little later you mention that womb is an envrionment. That i understand. > >You are assuming I think sexual orientation is due to >environmental factors - actually you are assuming I >think homosexuality is due to child-rearing - I >honestly don't think in terms of the "cause" of >homosexuality - and take care to frame what I have >written in terms of the nature of sexual orientation >(not preference - because it is not a choice) for all >people - hetero and homosexual. > > > No I wasn't assuming anything. I was asking a lot of questions. Perhaps I could have written the questions differently, But I am not sure how. 'I believe whole-heartedly in your belief that you and your siblings' homosexuality was soley genetically determined' I reread the posts i sent and nowhere have I said that. in fact, nowheer have I said what i believe. I have said I don't know. i have used the word 'likely' and 'indicate'. I asked a lot of questions. I am sorry you have had your feathers ruffled. i do not know why tho it seems you read my questions in a way I had not intended. It baffles me why discussions are so often interpeted as arguments. I have no set view. I know what i think is likely. I still don't know what people mean by environment. I would like to know how people think upbringing, if that is what is meant, can have an effect of actual sexual preference rather than sexual taste. 'enviironmental factors' are often spoken about in relatoion to traits of all sorts and odn't know what is meant by it. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:04:37 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Symphony Space Event In a message dated 1/28/2003 12:21:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, jrgoodspeed@yahoo.com writes: > For an idea about what a wall to wall concert is like > here's a link to a review of the Miles Davis wall to > wall: My take on it is that the 'wall to wall' concept tries to be as multi-media as it can be given the subject...I studied last year's schedule for the Richard Rodgers trib and it was part symphonic music, part spoken word, part film and mostly songs...the schedules for past events are pretty easily found once you're on the web site. I'm planning on being there - if it's nothing more than a 12-hour tribute concert, that's fine with me. Anything else will be gravy, and who knows - Joni gets to NYC from time to time and may show up. Bob NP: Kevin Gilbert, "From Here to There" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:11:53 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Today in History: January 28 Sometimes it seems I let my favorites sit too long without playing them (Blue, C&S FTR etc). But then I put them on and they are as fresh as they day I originally bought them. Lately it has been C&S and I am loving "Car On A Hill" all over again like crazy man! AND everything else on there as well, but "Car On A Hill" is it for me right now! Yes CLASSIC Bree, but more so even TIMELESS! Oh by the weekend it'll be something else! But who cares, there will always be some Joni on the top of my list! Peace, Susan - --- Bree Mcdonough wrote: > Amazingly...is sounds as fresh and as good as it did thirty years ago. (I > loved you thirty years ago) I get spine tingling chills even now..just > thinking about that very first piano note. Not a wasted note ..breath > anywhere... Classic in the true sense of the word! > > Bree > > > ____________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:36:58 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Today in History: January 28 > Lately it has been C&S and I am loving "Car On A Hill" all over again >like crazy man! AND everything else on there >as well, but "Car On A Hill" is it for me right now! Yes CLASSIC >Bree, >but more so even TIMELESS! Timeless..yes.. isn't she though. Nothing sounds dated that Joni has done. Or is it that just I love her music so? Have you ever told us your favorite Joni album? I know you prefer her early stuff. Or are you like many here you just can't decide? Does it just depend what mood you are in on any given day? Gun to head..mine are: Hejira..HOSL..C&S.. I hate doing this..listing my favorites.. because it's almost like I'm discounting the rest of her work. Which I love almost equally too. What a delicious dilemma Siquomb has given me. Bree >Oh by the weekend it'll be something else! But who cares, there will >always be some Joni on the >top of my list! > >Peace, >Susan > > >--- Bree Mcdonough wrote: > > Amazingly...is sounds as fresh and as good as it did thirty years ago. >(I > > loved you thirty years ago) I get spine tingling chills even now..just > > thinking about that very first piano note. Not a wasted note ..breath > > anywhere... Classic in the true sense of the word! > > > > Bree > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. >http://mailplus.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:38:14 -0500 From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Gay's interest in Joni, njc Laurent writes: << now I can appreciate Murph's humor. >> Ju suis content que t'apprecier enfin mes plaisantries. - --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 14:22:15 -0500 From: Subject: the GAY card Others have articulated up what attracted THIS gay guy to La Joni. Wrote Jerry: her intelligence, her perseverance, her beauty, her, her originality, her stunning talent. Wrote: Lori: her confessional writing, her nonjudgmental outlook. Wrote Chris: her talk of love. Wrote Andrew: her honesty, her joy, her recognition and articulation of sadness, her celebration of life and learning, her understanding and creation of art. I would add: some of us gay types have exquisite TASTE! ;-) MICHAEL in Toronto P.S. I have to agree with Andrew: most gay people I know are either indifferent to Joni or openly contemptuous -- just like most straight people I know. (sigh) As always, I'm convinced that those of us who love her so much (male of female, gay or straight, white or black or any other colour) are simply more highly evolved. ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:26:48 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: David Crosby-CPR concert (VLJC) thanks for the concert report jimmy & david...glad to hear you both enjoyed the band...so sorry to hear about your experience of crosby's attitude...its too bad because it only works against him (or any performer) not to be more gracious to those who are fans even if he is having a bad day (which it sounds like he was) from what i know of his personality he is always honest to a fault & never pulls any punches...so when he's not in the mood to chat or concerned about a sound during check, well i would not expect him to mince words... this isn't an excuse of the kind of behavior you witnessed of course, especially knowing what a kind & considerate guy you are...& he could have excused himself from speaking with you further in a kinder way (if he wasn't feeling up for it) but i'm not sure that is his personality... HOWEVER, approaching a performer to talk before a show rather that after the show is almost sure to be a very different scenario...& i've heard that crosby is very approachable during after show meet & greats when he is geared up for it (same with nash...stills & young on the other hand usually do not participate...) as nice as it was for the club owner to let you in, perhaps he should have consulted with the performers on whether this was okay with them because like randy says, sound check is when they are working that time can be EXTREMELY stressful if things aren't sounding good... well that's my 2 cents for what it's worth.. ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 14:29:14 -0500 From: Subject: one more thing... Earlier today, I sat down and listened to one of my favourite "runs" in T'LOG (these songs seem to belong together): CHINESE, CHEROKEE, DAWNTREADER, RICHARD, CIRCLE GAME (I've always skipped BORDERLINE, even on TI -- it does nothing for me). And I have to say: the depth of pure EMOTION in Joni's performances of these songs is really quite staggering -- almost impossible to listen to if you're not in the right mood. The whole album is like that to me: grand, heavy (mostly). monumental. I have a feeling I will love it more and more as the years go by. MICHAEL ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 12:02:37 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: David Crosby-CPR concert now NJC another thought to illustrate the pre & post show emotional space of many performers...recently i attended a show in a small local club to see several of my friends performing, one who is a very well known & recognizable musician who is generally very accessible to folks whether he knows them or not...when he & his wife arrived (the show had started) they came over to say a quick hi & she was warm & he was uncharacteristically distant & reserved...i hadn't seen them for awhile so i was at first a bit suprised at this but sure enough when his set was over he came back over & sat down to chat it up like his normal self for the rest of the evening... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 14:30:39 -0600 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: Re: TodSometimes it seems I let my favorites sit too long without playing tay in History: January 28 Guzzi said: Sometimes it seems I let my favorites sit too long without playing them (Blue, C&S FTR etc).album - I do the same thing, I love C&S - Down to You has always been my favorite on that album.... You go down to the pick up station craving warmth and beauty You settle for less than fascination, a few drinks later you're not so choosy Then the closing lights strip off the shadows of this strange new flesh you've found Clutching the night to you like a fig leaf You hurry - to the blackness, and the blankets, to lay down an impression And your lonliness........ It's such a sad song. Always makes me teary...who hasn't ever felt that way themselves at some point? db > ____________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #69 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)