From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #66 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, January 27 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 066 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Namm/Email Hell njc [frasere@intergate.ca] Re: Being Gay, njc ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Namm/Email Hell njc ["Lori Fye" ] Joni & Michael Leunig (only small JC) ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Being Gay, njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] Good article on free will [sl.m@shaw.ca] journey of man njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Turning Gay, njc [sl.m@shaw.ca] Good article on free will NJC [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: Turning Gay, njc [David Sadowski ] Turning Gay, njc ["Laurent Olszer" ] fingers and gays.. or not NJC ["Lucy Hone" ] For the Joni Only List [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: For the Joni Only List ["Lori Fye" ] Gays' interest in Joni ["Jim Leonard" ] RE: Gays' interest in Joni ["Jerry Notaro" ] Yvette in English [Bruce Kimerer ] Re: Yvette in English [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Good joke for Canadians NJC [sl.m@shaw.ca] RE: Gays' interest in Joni ["Lori Fye" ] Carry On singer NJC [Scott Price ] Re: Carry On singer NJC [Scott Price ] Re: Being Gay, njc [Chris Marshall ] Re: Gays' interest in Joni [Chris Marshall ] Re: Being Gay, njc [colin ] Re: Being Gay, njc ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Being Gay, njc ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Gays' interest in Joni [Little Bird ] Re: Gays' interest in Joni [Little Bird ] Re: Being Gay, njc [Jenny Goodspeed ] Re: Being Gay, njc [Jenny Goodspeed ] "Concrete concentration camp..." [Little Bird ] Re: Turning Gay, njc ["Stephen Toogood" ] Re: Gays' interest in Joni ["Stephen Toogood" ] RE: Gays' interest in Joni - njc ["patrick leader" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:11:14 -0800 From: frasere@intergate.ca Subject: Re: Namm/Email Hell njc Quoting Michaelpaz@aol.com: > I wanted to encourage people to take advantage of the suggestion that Les > made regarding using the JMDL as a political/religious discussion list and > sign up for the list on yahoo that he set up. I use yahoo for several OTHER > discussion lists including the new Lee Shore list (CSNY CPR ETC.) are there > > and it is very neat and easy to use. I think when the list owner is forced to > > make this type of request it is for a very good reason. Just a friendly > reminder (no flames necessary!) > A big here here from me! As much as I appreciate the right of listers to post what they wish as long as it is labelled NJC, lately, both the amount, and content of them, is far too distant from the original purpose of the list- ie- the life and times of Joni Mitchell. Thanks for the suggestion Les and Paz! Best, Stephen not in Vancouver ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:17:24 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Being Gay, njc Jenny opined: > This is not to say that homosexuality does NOT have a biological > component, but rather it is not a predetermined immutable trait like > eye color or hair color. It might be interesting and informative to ask our LGBT members one or more of these questions: 1) If you identify as lesbian, gay, or bisexual how old were you when you "knew" you were attracted (emotionally, physically, or both) to the same gender as yourself? 2) If you identify as transgendered, how old were you when you "knew" you were not the correct gender? Some days I identify as lesbian, other days as bisexual. In either case, I was 5 years old when I "knew." Lori ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:19:45 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Namm/Email Hell njc Hi Stephen not in Vancouver! ; ) > the original purpose of the list- ie- the life and times of Joni > Mitchell. I know we've been super-NJC lately, but ... "it comes and goes." And while these discussions are not about Joni's life, they still qualify as being within her times ... : ) Lori ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:35:47 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Joni & Michael Leunig (only small JC) lovely! thanks for this link john, i loved this one: 'let it go let it out let it all unravel let it free & it can be a path on which to travel' >>Leunig is one of Australias Living National Treasures. http://members.ozemail.com.au/~paulma/leunig.htm. There is also an appreciation web site at http://www.curlyflat.net/ though not it seems a great many images.<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:37:28 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Being Gay, njc 46yrs and like both..but want to spend my life with a woman. Bree >1) If you identify as lesbian, gay, or bisexual how old were you when >you "knew" you were attracted (emotionally, physically, or both) to the >same gender as yourself? > >2) If you identify as transgendered, how old were you when you "knew" >you were not the correct gender? > >Some days I identify as lesbian, other days as bisexual. In either >case, I was 5 years old when I "knew." > >Lori _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:40:34 -0500 From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Being Gay, njc Lori asks: << 1) If you identify as lesbian, gay, or bisexual how old were you when you "knew" you were attracted (emotionally, physically, or both) to the same gender as yourself? >> It was fairly recent, and I'll never forget it. It was at Jonifest 2000, when I first met Bob Muller. And: << 2) If you identify as transgendered, how old were you when you "knew" you were not the correct gender? >> Gee, that was even more recent, and also at a Jonifest -- Jonifest 2002, where "Golden Eggs" Guzzi helped me accept and nurture my inner Ethel. Interesting questions, Lori! - --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:45:38 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Good article on free will From today's National Post Scientists and philosophers have long pondered the problem of free will: Do we consciously choose our actions -- or is our behaviour dictated by our environment, our genes and myriad other factors that rarely spill over into our conscious minds? Such speculation is now giving way to hard data, with experimental psychology finally equipped to probe the differences between the conscious and the unconscious mind. Harvard psychologist Daniel Wegner argues that free will "is a construction ... something the mind builds in order to keep track of what it's doing" -- an idea he explores in detail in his book The Illusion of Conscious Will. Consciousness, he says, frequently "isn't the engine on the train." http://www.nationalpost.com/search/site/story.asp?id=D74C0BFF-5F70-4E01-9AAF-445EE6D2969B ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:56:03 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: journey of man njc >>If true peace is to come to this world it will be one e-mail at a time, till we realize we truly are the same world wide.<< this reminds me of a pbs special i saw a few nights ago...called journey of man...did anyone see it? in a nutshell it was a fascinating study (via detailed genetic coding research) that traced all of humankind to africa (the cradle of civilization) which then migrated out in two different paths to the rest of the world... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:57:59 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Turning Gay, njc And if they're the SAME SIZE? Does that mean I get to do both? ;-) Sarah From: "Bree Mcdonough" Actually...there have been some studies involving lesbians. "The finger study"....Some lesbians, but not all, their first digit next to the thumb is longer than their ring finger. Straight woman usually have the opposite.. that is their ring finger is longer than the finger next to the thumb. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:09:54 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Good article on free will NJC From today's National Post Scientists and philosophers have long pondered the problem of free will: Do we consciously choose our actions -- or is our behaviour dictated by our environment, our genes and myriad other factors that rarely spill over into our conscious minds? Such speculation is now giving way to hard data, with experimental psychology finally equipped to probe the differences between the conscious and the unconscious mind. Harvard psychologist Daniel Wegner argues that free will "is a construction ... something the mind builds in order to keep track of what it's doing" -- an idea he explores in detail in his book The Illusion of Conscious Will. Consciousness, he says, frequently "isn't the engine on the train." http://www.nationalpost.com/search/site/story.asp?id=D74C0BFF-5F70-4E01-9AAF-445EE6D2969B ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:24:50 -0600 From: David Sadowski Subject: Re: Turning Gay, njc Only if I get to watch... sl.m@shaw.ca wrote: > And if they're the SAME SIZE? Does that mean I get to do both? ;-) > > Sarah > > > From: "Bree Mcdonough" > Actually...there have been some studies involving lesbians. "The finger > study"....Some lesbians, but not all, their first digit next to the > thumb is > longer than their ring finger. Straight woman usually have the > opposite.. > that is their ring finger is longer than the finger next to the thumb. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 21:35:29 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Turning Gay, njc > >Kasey wrote: > There are studies that suggest it is inate. > IF it was just down to 'environment', it is highly unlikely that you get > more than one in a group of siblings. The biggest hint that is genetic > is the fact that are groups of siblings where the incidence of > homosexuality is high. > I'm totally missing the logic behind this statement: since siblings share genetic material AND similar upbringing (in most cases), how can you separate the 2 to reach this conclusion? To be sure you'd have to study families of adopted children, wouldn't you? Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 20:30:43 -0000 From: "Lucy Hone" Subject: fingers and gays.. or not NJC Hello all, snotty nose me here using it as an excuse to drain the Grouse!!! BREE WROTE Actually...there have been some studies involving lesbians. "The finger study"....Some lesbians, but not all, their first digit next to the thumb is longer than their ring finger. Straight woman usually have the opposite.. that is their ring finger is longer than the finger next to the thumb. Weird..huh? Bree I am confirmed as a non-lesbian by the finger thing.... My ex husband hated the fact that I have gay and lesbian friends (narrow little bigot he...) However it was ok for him to have a friend who was bisexual because this guy was famous (is famous) but my friends, because they were/are your average creative productive person( but not loaded with money and not known worldwide) were not to be trusted, nor entertained in our house......AND HE WONDERS SOMETIMES WHY OUR MARRIAGE DID NOT WORK OUT.... that is just one of the reasons.... anyway that was an iteresting thing you found Bree... but then a bit further down.... Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: Turning Gay, njc In general women's index and ring fingers are the same size. The study found that lesbians had a tendency to have a shorter index finger and a longer ring finger - possibly indicating higher exposure to androgens as a fetus. So there are opposing camps (sorry for the pun) and what does it matter. Most human beings have fingers, most human beings have feelings and those can be many and varied. Is there a correlatioin between being human and being gay? maybe that is the link! is there any research into this? (tongue in cheek here) As to words to describe the many ways of being I think when asked about our sexual persuasions we should all just answer......." PEACEFUL " and leave it at that............ Good day/afternoon, evening to you all....... Lucy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:05:30 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: For the Joni Only List I've left NJC off this post deliberately because it's intended for the Joni-only people. I only joined this list a couple of months ago so I don't know the history, but as I understand it, this is a discussion list for people who love Joni Mitchell. It doesn't appear to be a list for a discussion of Joni Mitchell exclusively. But for the benefit of those who want to do that, people are requested to put NJC in the subject line if their posts are not about Joni Mitchell. The NJC posts are very wide-ranging in subject matter and are virtually always written from an incredibly intelligent and interesting point of view. When people disagree, they (usually!) do it politely, with arguments to back up their positions rather than personal abuse. I don't think I've ever seen an internet community so able to defend its positions, and with such diverse interests and tastes - but in fact, this is exactly what I'd expect from Joni Mitchell fans, which is why this list is such a great idea. From that point of view, this has to be one of the best lists in existence. The only real hostility I've seen on this list has been in posts from Joni-only people, pissed off because someone forgot to put NJC in the subject line. Please - this isn't a big deal! Most people remember to write NJC most of the time. Please bear in mind that you don't SEE the overwhelming majority of the NJC posts, so you're not able to judge how tiny the percentage is that mistakenly ends up in your inbox. Surely these can simply be deleted. Or, if you're on the digest, you can quickly scroll past them. Even when NJC has been left off by accident, people are pretty good about using descriptive subject lines, so you can usually tell without opening the email that is has no Joni content. How many seconds, literally, of your week is taken up deleting emails that should have been labelled NJC? Please allow those of us who want to discuss other issues to do so, and we will try VERY HARD to remember to put NJC in the subject line every time. But please don't respond in such a hostile way when we forget. We are only human! Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:20:04 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: For the Joni Only List To add a little something to what Sarah wrote ... If you find that you need a quick and easy way to blow off most of the NJC posts, check out http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni/, where you can find the latest "Joni-only" digest (and for that matter, ALL such digests since April 1999). Lori ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:27:10 -0500 From: "Jim Leonard" Subject: Gays' interest in Joni Hi JMDLers, Please don't flame me for asking this. I'm not homophobic (I swear it!), and I mean to create no controversy or ill will with anyone. I just have an honest question and am genuinely interested in receiving an answer (on list, please). As a bit of background, I've been subscribed to this list - off and on - for about three years now, and have been an unwavering Joni fanatic since 1968, when I bought "Clouds" (and then STAS, hot on its heels) as a 16-year old singer/guitarist, weaned on the British Invasion, Dylan, the Byrds, etc. When I first subscribed to the JMDL in 2000, upon getting my first computer, I was taken aback by how many gay people are on the list, and by how central gay issues are to the content of the list. This hasn't come up in my time here, and I'd find it to be interesting "JC" to know why it is that Joni has such a large gay following - or, even, a predominantly gay following, if one is to judge by the demographics of those who post regularly to the JMDL. Joni's lyrics and her lifestyle have always been exuberantly blatant in their heterosexuality - celebratory, in fact. I guess that's why I'm mystified. Other heterosexual songwriters of Joni's generation have made an equally profound impact and are widely considered to be Joni's equals (of those, I'd liken Paul Simon's artistry most to Joni's) - so it can't be just her songs and her overall musicianship that have attracted such a large gay following, can it? Those artists' discussion lists (Dylan, Van Morrison, Neil Young, Paul Simon, etc.) don't have any "GC" (gay content). Does it, therefore, have to do with the fact she is a woman? If so, why would that be, especially given that she is such an in-your-face heterosexual? Thanks! Kind replies only please. One reply will do if it sums things up for everyone. :-) Best, Jim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:44:19 -0500 From: "Jerry Notaro" Subject: RE: Gays' interest in Joni Really a wonderful question Jim. And even more interesting is that she has such a large gay AND lesbian following. That is pretty rare. We all know the usual gay male icons. But they rarely attract a lesbian following. With Joni, I would say it is her intelligence, her perseverance, her beauty, her originality, her stunning talent. I guess that was what attracted EVERYONE to her. I find, though, that Joni fans all over the world share these interests in her more than they share any particular sexuality. Jerry - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Jim Leonard Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 4:27 PM To: Joni List Subject: Gays' interest in Joni Hi JMDLers, Please don't flame me for asking this. I'm not homophobic (I swear it!), and I mean to create no controversy or ill will with anyone. I just have an honest question and am genuinely interested in receiving an answer (on list, please). As a bit of background, I've been subscribed to this list - off and on - for about three years now, and have been an unwavering Joni fanatic since 1968, when I bought "Clouds" (and then STAS, hot on its heels) as a 16-year old singer/guitarist, weaned on the British Invasion, Dylan, the Byrds, etc. When I first subscribed to the JMDL in 2000, upon getting my first computer, I was taken aback by how many gay people are on the list, and by how central gay issues are to the content of the list. This hasn't come up in my time here, and I'd find it to be interesting "JC" to know why it is that Joni has such a large gay following - or, even, a predominantly gay following, if one is to judge by the demographics of those who post regularly to the JMDL. Joni's lyrics and her lifestyle have always been exuberantly blatant in their heterosexuality - celebratory, in fact. I guess that's why I'm mystified. Other heterosexual songwriters of Joni's generation have made an equally profound impact and are widely considered to be Joni's equals (of those, I'd liken Paul Simon's artistry most to Joni's) - so it can't be just her songs and her overall musicianship that have attracted such a large gay following, can it? Those artists' discussion lists (Dylan, Van Morrison, Neil Young, Paul Simon, etc.) don't have any "GC" (gay content). Does it, therefore, have to do with the fact she is a woman? If so, why would that be, especially given that she is such an in-your-face heterosexual? Thanks! Kind replies only please. One reply will do if it sums things up for everyone. :-) Best, Jim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:50:01 -0500 From: Bruce Kimerer Subject: Yvette in English The recent posts about David Crosby have made me wonder about the JM/DC collaboration "Yvette in English." Does anyone know who wrote which -- words/music (the music sounds kinda Crosby-like to me)? And how it came about? And are there any other JM/DC songs floating around out there? Crosby has always been one of the most interesting artists to me. His '71 solo album 'If I Could Only Remember My Name' is, to my ears, one of the very best from that period. The song Deja Vu is one of the high points from the original CSN/CSNY era. And the current work with CPR is real good too (certainly superior to that last CSNY reunion album). Bruce NP: DC - Cowboy Movie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 17:00:46 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Yvette in English In a message dated 1/27/2003 4:50:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, kimerer@taconic.net writes: > The recent posts about David Crosby have made me wonder about the JM/DC > collaboration "Yvette in English." Does anyone know who wrote which -- > words/music (the music sounds kinda Crosby-like to me)? And how it came > about? And are there any other JM/DC songs floating around > out there? To paraphrase my understanding of the scenario, David wanted Joni to write some songs for him, or co-write with him...Joni was in a dry spell and not really interested or motivated, so David asked if he could fax her some lyrics and have her "school marm" on them, which he did. She pulled a Kratzman on him and marked up cliches and what not. Crosby of course then went on to record the song on his "Thousand Roads" CD, and it's very nice. As far as I know, that's the only Crosby-Mitchell composition that's out there. Bob, who LOVED the version of "Carry On" on that Superbowl commercial last night! NP: Lorraine Gervais, "Peel Me A Grape" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:08:59 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Good joke for Canadians NJC While visiting England recently, Jean Chretien is invited to have tea with the Queen. Given his recent political problems, he decides to take advantage of her years of leadership experience and asks her what her leadership philosophy is. She responds that it is to surround herself with the most intelligent people she can find and let them do their jobs. Intrigued with this novel theory, Chretien asks her how she is able to tell if the people are intelligent. "I do so by asking them a test question," responds the Queen. "Allow me to demonstrate." The Queen then dials 10 Downing Street and asks to speak to Tony Blair. "Mr. Prime Minister, please answer a hypothetical question for me." "I'll do my best, Your Majesty," responds Blair. "Your mother has a child and your father has a child," says the Queen. "The child is not your brother or your sister. Who is the child?" Tony Blair hesitates momentarily and then confidently replies, "Well, Your Majesty, I guess it would have to be me." "Correct," says the Queen. "Thank you and good day to you Sir." The Queen hangs up and says, "Did you hear that Mr. Chretien? See how clever he is." Impressed, Chretien replies, "I certainly did. I'll definitely be using that one when I conduct my next Cabinet shuffle back in Canada." Upon returning to Ottawa, Chretien decides he'd better put some of his senior Cabinet Ministers to the test. He summons Sheila Copps to his office and says, " Madame Minister, I wonder if you could answer a question for me?" "Why of course, Sir," Copps responds eagerly, impressed that the Prime Minister was actually seeking her input on something. "Well, uh, let's say your mother has a child and your father has a child. This child is not your brother and also is not your sister. Who is it?" Somewhat surprised at this odd question, Copps hems and haws and finally asks if she can have some time to think about it. "Certainly," responds Chretien. Copps immediately calls a meeting of other senior Liberals and they puzzle over the question for several hours. Totally baffled, they decide to conduct some research and contact a loyal Quebec consulting firm. A budget of $10 million is provided and intensive research is carried out over the next two weeks. Unfortunately, the consultants are unable to come up with an answer. Desperate to impress her boss, Copps decides to take a chance and calls Stephen Harper, who just happens to be in his office on Parliament Hill. "I realize you are just an Alberta redneck and are not all that wise in the ways of the world, but maybe you can help me out with a problem I have. I will certainly make it worth your while. I can guarantee your consituency a couple of hundred million, at least, in goverment spending over the next year." Harper is naturally sceptical about Liberal promises, but in the spirit of political co-operation he agrees to do what he can to help out. "O.K., here goes," says Copps. "Your mother has a child and your father has a child. The child is not your brother or your sister. Who is the child?" Without hesitating, Harper responds, "It would be me, of course." Impressed at the Albertan's quick response, Copps quickly brushes off Harper and rushes to the Prime Minister's office. " I know the answer to your question, Sir!! I know who the child is!!" Chretien, who was privately becoming a bit concerned at the delay in hearing back from Copps, is delighted. "Who is it, Sheila?" he asks. With obvious pride, Copps replies "It's Stephen Harper, Sir- it's Stephen Harper!!" Stunned, Chretien shouts in disgust, "Wrong, wrong, wrong - it's Tony Blair!!" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:18:32 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: RE: Gays' interest in Joni Jim, I agree with Jerry; your question is indeed wonderful. I'm almost at a loss for words (a rare occurrence). The smart ass in me wants to seize upon Jerry's reply and say it's because gays and lesbians - at least the ones who appreciate Joni Mitchell - are wildly intelligent, perseverate, beautiful, original, and stunningly talented. But of course there's more to it than that. It could have something to do with Joni's "confessional" writing about love desired and lost, or that we identify with societal and particularly parental disapproval, a la "Let The Wind Carry Me": She don't like my kick pleat skirt She don't like my eyelids painted green She don't like me staying up late In my high-heeled shoes Living for that rock 'n' roll dancing scene Papa says "Leave the girl alone, mother She's looking like a movie queen" Of course these are universal topics, but I'm only half joking with the above lyrics. It could be that, regardless of Joni's "in your face" heterosexuality, she's also made it abundantly clear that she's non-judgmental and appreciates us "as is": Fuck it! Tonight I'm going dancing With the drag queens and the punks Gayboys with their pants so tight Out in the neon light Underneath the street light (the entirety of "Two Grey Rooms") Or ... It could be that it's simply that the people who belong to this amazing discussion list have always been so welcoming to most everyone's point of view, and the LGBT community within feels comfortable enough to post about their lives, as everyone should. Still considering, Lori ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:20:59 -0800 From: Scott Price Subject: Carry On singer NJC At 05:00 PM 1/27/2003 -0500, SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: >Bob, who LOVED the version of "Carry On" on that Superbowl commercial last >night! Does anyone know who that performer is? Scott, who loved the song, *and* the thought of fulfilling a dream like going to outer space :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:29:01 -0800 From: Scott Price Subject: Re: Carry On singer NJC >Does anyone know who that performer is? Geez, answering my own emails... A quick web search (that I should have done before) says the singer is Alana Davis. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 22:40:11 +0000 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: Being Gay, njc On Monday, Jan 27, 2003, at 19:17 Europe/London, Lori Fye wrote: > It might be interesting and informative to ask our LGBT members one or > more of these questions: > > 1) If you identify as lesbian, gay, or bisexual how old were you when > you "knew" you were attracted (emotionally, physically, or both) to the > same gender as yourself? Lori, I think we could usefully modify this question as follows:- 1a) When did first admit to yourself or realise that you were something other than straight? 1b) When you look back before that time, when *should* you have realised, based on how you felt, or who you looked at, etc? I know this might not work for everyone, but I realised I was gay at about 22... but that was only because it was only then that I suddenly realised what it meant. Sheltered upbringing perhaps :) Looking back, I should have realised when I was about 10 or 11. I know I haven't made a fantastic job of explaining this, but I'm tired and not feeling very linguistically adventurous. Cheers, - --Chris Marshall chrisAThatstand.org (AIM: Chr15Marshall) "If you're ever lost, I'll beat the world to finding you" Stryngs, "Bobblehats and Beer", http://www.stryngs.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 22:35:37 +0000 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: Gays' interest in Joni On Monday, Jan 27, 2003, at 21:27 Europe/London, Jim Leonard wrote: > I'd find it to be interesting "JC" to know why it is that Joni has > such a large gay following - or, even, a predominantly gay following, > if one > is to judge by the demographics of those who post regularly to the > JMDL. I have a theory about this one, which I've discussed with a few other JMDLers, and we've been broadly in agreement. I started listning to Joni with Hejira, DJRD and Hissing, followed by Court & Spark. At the same time, I'd not long (as in a few years ago) figured out that I was gay, and was putting myself through the wringer by managing to fall in love with a straight friend of mine. Except I didn't know that's what I was doing, but I was, regardless. Anyway, suffice to say, her music immediately appealed to me because of it's talk of love, and the fact that there were so many lyrics which resonated so strongly with my *feelings* at the time (and a few times since then, too). Fast forward a few years, and I know much more about who I am: I've spent an unhealthy amount of time navel-gazing, analyzing what's going on in my head, analyzing what I want out of life, analyzing my emotions, and so on. I've come to the conclusion that Joni appeals to a large amount of GLBT folk because many of these people have been through the same process, are going through it, or are aware that they should, and end up empathising so strongly with her lyrics. Anyone with me on this one? :) - --Chris Marshall chrisAThatstand.org (AIM: Chr15Marshall) "If you're ever lost, I'll beat the world to finding you" Stryngs, "Bobblehats and Beer", http://www.stryngs.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 22:53:24 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Being Gay, njc Jenny Goodspeed wrote: > The fact that there are groups of >siblings who are gay really does indicate that >homosexuality does have an inborn cause rather it >being environmental. > >Not exactly - > which is why i used the word 'indicate'. I have a fair knowledge of genetics, as I use it all the time. If one sees a particular trait appearing multiple times in any given set of offspring, it is highly likely that the cause is genetic. I have a good friend(despite the fact she keeps guns and is a right wing Conservative-horror) who is a scientist. She believes sexuality is gentically determined and natural, whetehr it be gay or str8. apart from that, i don't think it is important. It will do nothing much if it proved beyond a doubt that it is genetic. Knwoing soemthing is gentic in roigin doesn't change people's opinions. Look at racism. the point is, even if it is environmental, or a choice, so what? There is nothing wrong with it. so why are we hung up on wanting to know why? I admit it is interesting. I find gentics interesting. Or if we find the genes that cause homosexuality, do we then accept abortion as suggested by some of our 'religious' leaders here in the UK? there was ahuge stink over the remarks made by a Rabbi who heads some organization when he said that if it could be dertemined before birth that a child would be gay, it was an acdeptbale reason for abortion. Of course Rabbi Julia Noyberger(sp?) had something to say about that and she certainly did not agree with him! In the end, it matters not one jot why homosexuals are homosexuals. we just are and that is the end of the story. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:55:27 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Being Gay, njc Okey-doke! > 1a) When did first admit to yourself or realise that you were > something other than straight? I became seriously concerned when I was about 12 years old and found myself in a kind of trance, heading toward kissing a photo Kate Jackson (circa her "Dark Shadows" period) that I had cut out of "16" magazine. And at age 18, in the Air Force, I wrote worried passages in my journal. (I came out at age 21 1/2.) > 1b) When you look back before that time, when *should* you have > realised, based on how you felt, or who you looked at, etc? When I was 6 and was literally knocked on my ass on the playground by Gail Something-or-other, also 6, because I tried to kiss her (facial) cheek. Somehow SHE knew and therefore told me that "girls aren't supposed to kiss other girls," but I had missed out on that information. Lori, who later discovered how to be "cunnilinguistically" adventurous ; P ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:05:29 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Being Gay, njc On discovering his gayness, Smurf admits: > It was fairly recent, and I'll never forget it. It was at Jonifest > 2000, when I first met Bob Muller. And on discovering his "inner Ethel": > Gee, that was even more recent, and also at a Jonifest So are you saying what I think you're saying?? JONIFESTS TURN PEOPLE GAY! Lori ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:12:08 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: Gays' interest in Joni I agree that it's a wonderful question to have asked, Jim. Her wide appeal to gay men and lesbians is something Joni herself has now acknowledged publicly. On a CBC television interview (Canada) she mentioned that gay men, blacks and women were the three largest demographics that her music seems to appeal to. These three groups make up the largest portion of her audience. As to why gay men (and lesbians) flock to Joni Mitchell, we can really only speculate and offer theories. I am gay and have loved Joni for her honesty, her joy, her recognition and articulation of sadness, her celebration of life and learning and her understanding and creation of art. These are not gay traits, they are human traits, and to say I like Joni BECAUSE I am gay would be totally misleading and incorrect. Having said that, I think gay men (I won't speak for the lesbians) have a shared history as far as emotional development is concerned. As mentioned above, there is HONESTY in Joni's music. Having to hide who you are for the ease of those around you is very trying and difficult and painful. Coming out of that socially-imposed prison is a wonderful feeling. Joni's outpourings of emotion mirror, more often than not, that same kind of emotional realization. Joni hates it when people call her lyrics "confessional" because it implies she has been hiding something for the greater good, but there is something confessional about them - admitting to feelings that she had previously not addressed. There's something about this theme that I think gay men identify with. I also said that I love Joni because of her expressions of joy and sadness. Gay men, no matter how well adjusted or happy, go through a period of time in their lives, maybe several periods, when they feel totally alienated from the rest of society. They feel utterly alone. Understand that society is 99.9% geared towards the comfort and pleasure of heterosexuals - from the movies at your local theatre to the ads on television, it's straight most of the time. Living on the fringes, one can get very sad, very dark, very moody, very angst-ridden, very lonely and feel like no one really understands. Joni articulates those emotions in her songs. She goes through them as a woman, but the simple fact that they are expressed in song acts as a lure to those who have experienced those emotions, gay men included. She also expresses the joy that comes from revelation and acceptance in love - abandon, hope, romance, happiness. Sailing out of the storm of self-conflict and self-denial is a wonderfully cleansing feeling and it IS happiness. It's like a rebirth. Of course there are gay men who hate Joni Mitchell, who can't stand her, who can't even bear to hear a single note from one of her songs - I know a few! Some gay men identify more strongly with the glitz and glamour of Barbra Streisand or Liza Minnelli. Not me, but a LOT of gay men do! So, there really is no rule or reason that we can apply to every gay man and every gay woman where a love for Joni Mitchell's music is concerned, or any other habits for that matter. Refer to the lines of "Borderline" to see what I mean. "every measure, every gage..." Basically, however, the majority of gay men find that female vocalists best articulate their feelings - at least that's been my experience. Every gay man I know has a vast collection of female artists and only a handful of male artists, myself included. Maybe this is because women tend to sing about men; maybe it's because gay men are more emotionally similar to women than straight men; maybe it's because the female voice is more expressive. There are no answers only theories. But I do thank you for asking it. - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:41:39 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: Gays' interest in Joni Just as an added bit of info, I have belonged to an Annie Lennox mailing list and a Bjork mailing list, both of which were teaming with gay men. I'm sure you'd find a similar case on a Barbra Streisand list, a Liza Minnelli list, a Judy Garland list. Just about any "legendary" female artist has a gay following, of this I am sure! - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:42:53 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: Being Gay, njc colin wrote: apart from that, i don't think it is important. It will do nothing much if it proved beyond a doubt that it is genetic I agree with you 100% there, Colin. But still have to disagree with the idea that the incidence of a trait in siblings indicates heritablity. Siblings share half their genes and most of their environment (at least in the home). It is impossible to tease the environment out of the equation in that situation. Now identical twins raised apart...that's another story. (I have a background in psych and psychologists love to come up with nature vs. nuture studies....) But I'm with you, ultimately it doesn't matter. Jenny Jenny Goodspeed wrote: > The fact that there are groups of >siblings who are gay really does indicate that >homosexuality does have an inborn cause rather it >being environmental. > >Not exactly - > which is why i used the word 'indicate'. I have a fair knowledge of genetics, as I use it all the time. If one sees a particular trait appearing multiple times in any given set of offspring, it is highly likely that the cause is genetic. I have a good friend(despite the fact she keeps guns and is a right wing Conservative-horror) who is a scientist. She believes sexuality is gentically determined and natural, whetehr it be gay or str8. apart from that, i don't think it is important. It will do nothing much if it proved beyond a doubt that it is genetic. Knwoing soemthing is gentic in roigin doesn't change people's opinions. Look at racism. the point is, even if it is environmental, or a choice, so what? There is nothing wrong with it. so why are we hung up on wanting to know why? I admit it is interesting. I find gentics interesting. Or if we find the genes that cause homosexuality, do we then accept abortion as suggested by some of our 'religious' leaders here in the UK? there was ahuge stink over the remarks made by a Rabbi who heads some organization when he said that if it could be dertemined before birth that a child would be gay, it was an acdeptbale reason for abortion. Of course Rabbi Julia Noyberger(sp?) had something to say about that and she certainly did not agree with him! Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:42:53 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: Being Gay, njc colin wrote: apart from that, i don't think it is important. It will do nothing much if it proved beyond a doubt that it is genetic I agree with you 100% there, Colin. But still have to disagree with the idea that the incidence of a trait in siblings indicates heritablity. Siblings share half their genes and most of their environment (at least in the home). It is impossible to tease the environment out of the equation in that situation. Now identical twins raised apart...that's another story. (I have a background in psych and psychologists love to come up with nature vs. nuture studies....) But I'm with you, ultimately it doesn't matter. Jenny Jenny Goodspeed wrote: > The fact that there are groups of >siblings who are gay really does indicate that >homosexuality does have an inborn cause rather it >being environmental. > >Not exactly - > which is why i used the word 'indicate'. I have a fair knowledge of genetics, as I use it all the time. If one sees a particular trait appearing multiple times in any given set of offspring, it is highly likely that the cause is genetic. I have a good friend(despite the fact she keeps guns and is a right wing Conservative-horror) who is a scientist. She believes sexuality is gentically determined and natural, whetehr it be gay or str8. apart from that, i don't think it is important. It will do nothing much if it proved beyond a doubt that it is genetic. Knwoing soemthing is gentic in roigin doesn't change people's opinions. Look at racism. the point is, even if it is environmental, or a choice, so what? There is nothing wrong with it. so why are we hung up on wanting to know why? I admit it is interesting. I find gentics interesting. Or if we find the genes that cause homosexuality, do we then accept abortion as suggested by some of our 'religious' leaders here in the UK? there was ahuge stink over the remarks made by a Rabbi who heads some organization when he said that if it could be dertemined before birth that a child would be gay, it was an acdeptbale reason for abortion. Of course Rabbi Julia Noyberger(sp?) had something to say about that and she certainly did not agree with him! Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:02:19 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: "Concrete concentration camp..." This deserves a wider readership so apologies for not putting NJC in advance, but frankly, it needs to be read. On this day, 57 years ago, the Auschwitz-Birkenau death camp was liberated by the Russian army. Many view today as a day to commemorate the victims and survivors of the Holocaust. Delete it if you must. Auschwitz was the largest concentration camp complex in the history of the war and the largest site of genocide in documented history. An estimated 2,200,000 people were murdered there, most of them Jews and most of them between 1941 and 1945. There were five large gas chambers and crematoria that, when combined, had a daily killing capacity of 6,000 people a day. The Germans destroyed the gas chambers but their foundations remain in tact; one was reconstructed for the purposes of the on-site museum. In any case, I think this is a subject that warrants some reflection and some awareness. Tonight I'll think of those precious faces of those terrified children who have been stolen from time and I'll think of their poor mothers and fathers who could do nothing to stop the madness. Remember their names, imagine their smiling faces at birthday parties before the war, never forget they had memories and goals and dreams. Remember them. - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 00:01:59 -0000 From: "Stephen Toogood" Subject: Re: Turning Gay, njc "colin" wrote:- > There are studies that suggest it is inate. > IF it was just down to 'environment', it is highly unlikely that you get > more than one in a group of siblings. The biggest hint that is genteic > is the fact that are groups of siblings where the incidence of > homosexuality is high. Why? Most siblings are 'parented' by the same parent(s) in the same 'enviroment'! Not saying that it's not genetic just that those findings can also suggest that it is your upbringing. So Back to square one. To be honest life never seems to be all that simple so I'm guessing it's a bit of everything! STEVE ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 23:59:57 -0000 From: "Stephen Toogood" Subject: Re: Gays' interest in Joni Yes Chris, that makes perfect sense to me. Joni's music seems to cover every type of emotion. Whatever sexuality; we all laugh and cry, and feel! STEVE "All these highs and lows" From: "Chris Marshall" > On Monday, Jan 27, 2003, at 21:27 Europe/London, Jim Leonard wrote: > > I'd find it to be interesting "JC" to know why it is that Joni has > > such a large gay following - or, even, a predominantly gay following, > > if one > > is to judge by the demographics of those who post regularly to the > > JMDL. > > I have a theory about this one, which I've discussed with a few > other JMDLers, and we've been broadly in agreement. > > I started listning to Joni with Hejira, DJRD and Hissing, > followed by Court & Spark. At the same time, I'd not long > (as in a few years ago) figured out that I was gay, and was > putting myself through the wringer by managing to fall in > love with a straight friend of mine. Except I didn't know > that's what I was doing, but I was, regardless. > > Anyway, suffice to say, her music immediately appealed to > me because of it's talk of love, and the fact that there > were so many lyrics which resonated so strongly with my > *feelings* at the time (and a few times since then, too). > > Fast forward a few years, and I know much more about who > I am: I've spent an unhealthy amount of time navel-gazing, > analyzing what's going on in my head, analyzing what I want > out of life, analyzing my emotions, and so on. I've come to > the conclusion that Joni appeals to a large amount of GLBT > folk because many of these people have been through the > same process, are going through it, or are aware that they > should, and end up empathising so strongly with her lyrics. > > Anyone with me on this one? :) > > --Chris Marshall > > chrisAThatstand.org (AIM: Chr15Marshall) > > "If you're ever lost, I'll beat the world to finding you" > Stryngs, "Bobblehats and Beer", http://www.stryngs.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 19:29:54 -0500 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: Gays' interest in Joni - njc i'm taking this njc, even though it certainly isn't. i'm afraid this would be the joni-onlies' nightmare "oh god, now they're talking about gayness with joni content, i'll never escape it!" i think andrew got at an important point late in his post. the large majority of straight men don't really care for the female voice. now, before you start yelling, remember, YOU ARE THE EXCEPTION. the r'n'r hall of fame folks who didn't even nominate joni her first couple of years weren't trying to be sexist, they just hadn't really listened. the other four you mentioned, james? all men. i have about one or two albums by each of them, and don't really need any more, but i have everything kate bush, rickie lee jones, and jane siberry recorded and dream of their next releases. i don't believe any of my girls will get in to the hall of fame, but i put their musical achievements in the rock era light years ahead of most of the men who've been inducted in... it's changed a lot, but still a lot of heterosexual white men don't even care what women sing about. like 70% of the men at those agonizing dylan concerts i attended. i also don't think that joni's lyrics are all that exuberantly blatant in their heterosexuality, at least not like aerosmith or mic jagger. she talks about love on so many levels. 'a case of you' is exuberantly blatant? what's heterosexual about 'until love sucks me back that way'? she even cast herself as a gay man in 'two grey rooms'. i think joni's lyrics are incredibly nuanced, and i think that gay men, lesbians and straight women appreciate nuance more, on the average. nuance can be hard to see, when the world is your oyster. and i've always thought that one of her most flamboyant sexual metaphors "he chains me with that serpent to that ethiopian wall" would be kind of uncomfortable for a straight man, whereas it gets me hot. but i do think voice is an important part of it. womens' voices are allowed to be more expressive, as andrew said, more breathy, more feminine. that's cultural, especially in american white culture. black music has always had more room in it ambiguous sexuality and for high notes sung by men. falsetto came from black doo-wop. for what it's worth, the male voices i love the most from my youth are the ambiguous ones, robert plant, todd rundgren, marvin gaye (he's maybe not so ambiguous, but those high notes?) george michael and morrissey, though he's a baritone with a couple of high notes. i don't know if this is what you were looking for. i've rambled a bit, but had fun.... patrick np - silence ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #66 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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