From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #61 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, January 25 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 061 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: STANDARD oil [Susan Guzzi ] Re: Joni songs [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: Favorite Joni look ["Blair Fraipont" ] re: most things going on on the list NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: STANDARD oil [Catherine McKay ] Re: "Dark Side Of The Moon" to be re-release this year in SACDsurround-sound: , njc [Randy Remote ] RE: speaking english NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] twins/and run-in-the-family stuff NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re:Expressions NJC [Chorando6@aol.com] Re: STANDARD oil [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: STANDARD oil [Randy Remote ] Re: STANDARD oil (VLJC) [Susan Guzzi ] Re: Vienna Teng - NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Fw: If a man has a sex change......NJC [Randy Remote ] Re: Most things going on on the list NJC [dsk ] Re: Fw: If a man has a sex change......NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] at odds NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: Fw: If a man has a sex change......NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Blue Motel Room and nest JM Standard NJC [dsk ] Re: I'm back ... and what a long strange Travelogue it's been. [dsk ] Re: at odds NJC ["Blair Fraipont" ] Re: Fw: If a man has a sex change......NJC [Randy Remote ] Re: Fw: If a man has a sex change......NJC [Catherine McKay ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 12:08:17 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: STANDARD oil Hi Michael, I must respectfully disagree with your point here, although I understand it completely. The thing about writing and speifically music, is it IS ALL personal. However, we all can listen to a song and it touches our own story within, it brings out an emotion and an episiode in our own lives. When we hear the interpretation of that specific song, from the author, it may very well have a totally different meaning, but it is all about when that song becomes ours and what it means to us. In a song uch as Cold Blue Steel & Sweet Fire, that is pretty subject specific and yet I know many people untouched by heroin who can get totally immersed in that song and it's message. And any song about love can be a couple's song - even a break-up song. So in the case of a great artist/writer like Joni, we may know the true root of her compostions, but when we are sitting back and in our own moments, can we not feel something completely different than Joni ever intended or feel the same emotion but for our own reasons? Just my own observations. I would also say as a small time, no talent writer, I used to be inhibited for the very thing you present, that no one would see what i was saying ... or understand me. But the mind is a complex and amazing thing. When I began writing more I was always surprised at the parts that people latched on to and that let me know to write with abandon and let people find what they need in it. So, write for yourself and share for others own self exploration. Okay I have pontificated much too long and the bottom line is Blue Hotel Room has what I believe it takes to be a standard. No matter what Joni herself may even say about this. So sing it, all you singers! Peace, Susan NP: Jeff Buckley/Everybody Here Wants You - --- mtotzke@gosympatico.ca wrote: > As much as I love BLUE MOTEL ROOM, I don't see > it ever becoming a standard -- the words are too > Joni-specific. > > Because La Joni IS such a specific writer (which is what > makes her so valuable and so unique), many of her songs > belong to her and her alone. Doncha think? > > MICHAEL in Toronto Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 15:09:18 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni songs Russ wrote > 'Two Grey Rooms'......can I just swoon, > now? Thanks. > > Yes, many (most ?) of us think of TGR as a top song. Today, I had another epiphany into why I have loved Blue for almost 32 years. I sat down at the piano to try to learn to play My Old Man (thanks Janine), and was left (after a brief initial session with the sheet music) in amazement that such early work could have so much in it. In particular, the use of successive half tones in the melody and related harmony (juxtaposed to her trademark leaps), the unusual key change (or at least, effective key change) to the chorus and back, the major to minor chord shifts, and the trademark use of non-tonic bass chords. And, the lyrics to boot. What a fantastic song ! And I bet that relatively few of us would put it among their top 5 on that album !!!! My personal ranking has historically put it at number 8 !!!I I'm moving it up to number 5, but refuse to lower the rankings of any of the others :-) This is a good example of something that I (and no doubt most of us) have observed in reading the posts to this list. Namely, that Joni's work is of such extraordinarily high and consistent quality that almost all of her songs have something so noteworthy about them that they have found their way onto somebody's "personal favorites" list. That is a telling testament to her body of work, IMO. Bob's Art ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 15:10:16 -0500 From: "Blair Fraipont" Subject: Re: Favorite Joni look I have to say the "Shadows and Light" Joni is probably my favorite. I was heavily chastised by my sister because Joni was wearing "CLam Diggers". So now, whenever I am playing Joni or mention her, my sister Fara has to slip in something about clam diggers. I had lent the video to a good friend of mine and she felt that Joni and David Bowie shared alot of common facial features. I took another look and have to agree with her. This is where my true Joni Obsession started though with this video. Blair NP: "NEw York Tendaberry" Laura Nyro > >Ok, Ok, before that filthy swine Scott Price beats me to it >(talk about a dirty old man!) I have to say that the inside of >FTR is the look *I* treasure. :) >-- _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 15:20:15 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: re: most things going on on the list NJC --- mike pritchard wrote: > >> as Bernadette Peters would say... it's twue it's > twue ;-) > Wasn't that Madeline Kahn in 'Blazing Saddles'? > minb It was. You're right. Imagine that. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 15:26:14 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: re first thing NJC --- mike pritchard wrote: > >>Any Canadians ever sing Handel? No, thought not. > Jon Vickers.<< > Never heard of her. > minb > NPIMH Bryn Terfel. 'Salmon chanted 'Evening'' Just because you've never heard of her doesn't mean she doesn't exist. A friend of mine used to sing in the Toronto Mendelssohn Choir. She's not famous, so I guess she doesn't count. The choir is, relatively speaking that is (this is Canada, eh? does anyone outside of this frozen berg know anything about us? likely not, and that's not a bad thing IMO), and they regularly perform the Messiah. This friend of mine also provided a shitload of names, most of which I've never heard before, except for Lois Marshall. I hope you've heard of him? As for me, I've sung Handel, but more often I handle Singh. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 15:30:17 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: STANDARD oil --- Susan Guzzi wrote: > > > Okay I have pontificated much too long and the > bottom line is Blue Hotel Room has what I believe > it takes to be a standard. No matter what Joni > herself may even say about this. So sing it, all > you singers! I love that song. If you were going to sing it, would you keep the line, "Tell those girls that you've got Joni - she's coming back home"? or would you change it - - what would you change it to? your own name? If you were a straight guy singing it, would you sing, "Tell those boys that you've got Johnny, he's coming back home"? Does that get too convoluted? Probably. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 12:28:58 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: "Dark Side Of The Moon" to be re-release this year in SACDsurround-sound: , njc It'd almost be worth buying the whole SACD surround setup just to hear Dark Side Of The Moon! But I agree that having two competing formats is bad for both. Re your David Crosby disc: There was a Crosby/Nash album called "Live"....is it that one? Great long version of Deja vu. Croz had another live post-prison disc "It's All Coming Back To Me Now", and he also did one for King Bisquit Flower Hour. There is also, floating around in bootleg-ville a tape of the show billed as "Dave and the Dorks" which was recorded in Marin with David backed by the Grateful Dead around the time of his first solo album. ps if anyone has a good copy of this, please contact me! Regarding Joni's BSN dvd audio, Jerry Notaro told me: Joni's BSN, because it is a new recording, is quite different in DVD-Audio. The orchestra surrounds you, with Joni firmly planted up front and center. Very, very nice. But you pretty much have to sit in the sweet spot to enjoy it. RR > > It's a real 5.1 version by "longtime Pink Floyd producer/engineer" > James > Guthrie. I guess they couldn't persuade Alan Parsons to revisit his > crowing > achievement? Dunno if Waters or Gilmore were involved. > > http://store.acousticsounds.com/store.cfm?Title_ID=1053 > &do=detail&keywords= > newsletter > > That's good news for the 2 people on the planet who have SACD > players. The > rest of the world is sleeping through the revolution and that is why > it will > "fail". > > For non-audiophiles: This material will NOT be on the final exam. It > will > be just another Good Idea That Didn't Catch On like the Elcaset and > Beta and > Laserdisc and FM radio. (Okay, I slipped in a ringer.) SACD is one > of two > higher-rez formats. Yeah, there are combination players that decode > both > Sony's SACD and Panasonic's DVD-Audio. As you would expect it's the > usual > battle: Sony-Columbia versus the rest of the world. There is already > one > Joni Mitchell title available on DVD-Audio but no one on this list has > ever > reviewed it. There are no Beatles titles yet. The revolution will > not be > buying airtime on the Super Bowl broadcast. > > Lama > > np: a superb sounding David Crosby solo live disc. I found it in a > gas > station for $8 or something. The title is "Live" and on a label > called > "EMI-Capitol Special Markets". Cat #72435-24498-2-8 (c) 2000. The > dynamics > are intact and that, my friends, is half the ride. (That's what was > so > disappointing about the latest live one from the E Streeters. You > would > think that Sony-Columbia would have figured it out by now, but no. > Even > "Live Rust" comes up lacking in the dynamics game.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 12:42:27 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: STANDARD oil Catherine wrote: If you were a straight guy singing it, would you sing, "Tell those boys that you've got Johnny, he's coming back home"? Does that get too convoluted? Probably. Andrew says: I have this all worked out already. I am planning on performing it someday, because it's such a beautiful "blues" song, and I would change the lines to, "I know that you've got all those pretty boys coming on..." and "Tell those boys that you've got Andy, he's coming back home." It works for gay guys too, and the "boom, boom pachyderm" line is most intriguing with endless interpretive possibilities. If I was a recording artist, I'd make absolutely sure to keep Joni's vocal interlude in tact if I was covering that song - that sweet, multi-tracked layering of Joni's vocals right after the aforementioned line is sung. That 10 seconds of bliss is closer to Godliness than any singer has ever come. - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:44:49 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: speaking english NJC that sounds kind of sexy and kinky. wallyK, a gay man in drew carey's body - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de kerry Enviado el: Sabado, 25 de Enero de 2003 12:44 p.m. Para: joni@smoe.org CC: chiaroscuro@snet.net Asunto: RE: speaking english NJC I've also heard "colder than a witch's tit in a metal bra!" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:53:13 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: twins/and run-in-the-family stuff NJC i know lots of identical twins who are both gay or both straight. i went to school with a lot of identical twins. was 1960 a special year for twins? at one point there 6 pairs in my class. i have lots of aunts, uncles and cousins who are gay. most of them closeted or already dead, which is amounts to about the same. i wonder if there's something genetic after all. i'm sure my parents were closet cases too. but my daddy is dead and would never have told me in any case. and my mother is so spaced now that she doesn't remember what she was/is/has been. wallyK I have a friend who is gay as are his two brothers, but not his sister - however, she is on her third marriage, whatever that means (maybe making up for her brothers?) I wonder if there are any identical twins where one is gay and the other straight? ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 18:00:23 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: re first thing NJC oh mike oh mike!!!!!! jon vickers! god incarnate! the most wonderful tristan and don jose in history. a man of such psychological and mystical depth that even hearing him on record makes go into a trance. and must have sung a million times at the liceu in barcelona. check him out, PLEASE! wallyK, wishing he could hear you speak welsh and of course say the llan word. (but now i know how to pronounce the "ll" sound in welsh!!!!) - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de mike pritchard Enviado el: Sabado, 25 de Enero de 2003 04:39 p.m. Para: catherine mckay; list CC: mags Asunto: re first thing NJC >>Any Canadians ever sing Handel? No, thought not. Jon Vickers.<< Never heard of her. minb NPIMH Bryn Terfel. 'Salmon chanted 'Evening'' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 16:10:04 EST From: Chorando6@aol.com Subject: Re:Expressions NJC three of my favourites: Falling out the ugly tree hitting every branch on the way down. and He's got a face like a bulldog pissing up a nettle. and A mouth like gandhi's flip flop ( after a night out on the town) xx clive ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 16:10:38 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: STANDARD oil In a message dated 1/25/2003 3:31:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, anima_rising@yahoo.ca writes: > If you were going to sing it, would > you keep the line, "Tell those girls that you've got > Joni - she's coming back home"? or would you change it > - what would you change it to? your own name? Historically speaking, it's been done both ways. Karin Allyson sings "Joni" Denise Marie sings "Joni" Lorraine Gervais sings "'Raine" (short for Lorraine) David Lahm & Steve Klink said nothing (instrumentals) Claire Martin says ?? (should know in a week) no male vocalist versions yet that I'm aware of. (When I sang it at Jonifest 2001, I kept Joni's lyric intact) And I think while Michael has a point, I don't see the inclusion of her name as an obstacle to BMR becoming a standard in time. BUT there are songs that are very personal...still, are there any Joni songs more personal than I Had A King & Little Green, yet they've been done several times, and very effectively so I might add. I would submit that what holds most singers back from doing a specific Joni song is not the lyrical content but rather the musical complexity. When a naturally gifted vocalist comments on how hard it is to sing Joni, you KNOW it can be a daunting task! Bob NP: Son Volt, "Straighaways" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 13:15:55 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: STANDARD oil I think the biggest barrier to this song being a standard is simply it's length. 5 or six long verses, two bridges... When I play this one, I change it to "tell those boys to clear on out, I'm on my way back home" I think BSN is a good candidate for a Joni standard. RR Catherine McKay wrote: > --- Susan Guzzi wrote: > > > > > Okay I have pontificated much too long and the > > bottom line is Blue Hotel Room has what I believe > > it takes to be a standard. No matter what Joni > > herself may even say about this. So sing it, all > > you singers! > > I love that song. If you were going to sing it, would > you keep the line, "Tell those girls that you've got > Joni - she's coming back home"? or would you change it > - what would you change it to? your own name? If you > were a straight guy singing it, would you sing, "Tell > those boys that you've got Johnny, he's coming back > home"? Does that get too convoluted? Probably. > > ===== > Catherine > Toronto > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 13:21:30 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: STANDARD oil (VLJC) Hi Catherine, When I used to sing this during one of my own "at home concerts" attended by a cast of thousands in my mind, I always changed it to "tell those girls, you've got Susie, she's comin' back home." Hey I'm a Leo! But I am planning on trying this one again since the voice in 5 DAYS of not smoking is in my opinion making rapid progress back, can't wait to see what it sounds like in a few weeks! All I can say is not smoking for someone else - had better pay off soon! LOL! Peace, Susan P.S. Call me Anything but SUE! Eeewww Catherine McKay wrote: that Susan wrote: > > Okay I have pontificated much too long and the > > bottom line is Blue Hotel Room has what I believe > > it takes to be a standard. > I love that song. If you were going to sing it, would > you keep the line, "Tell those girls that you've got > Joni - she's coming back home"? or would you change it > - what would you change it to? your own name? If you > were a straight guy singing it, would you sing, "Tell > those boys that you've got Johnny, he's coming back > home"? Does that get too convoluted? Probably. Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 13:35:13 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Vienna Teng - NJC i missed this show but WOW, i just listened to her songs at cdbaby & her npr interview at http://discover.npr.org/features/feature.jhtml?wfId=910087 & i am impressed!!! intelligent, beautiful, goosebump music... i am definately getting this record... thanks bob & debra for mentioning her...btw, what song did she play on letterman? i've seen her mentioned on my indiegrrl list touring with other similar artists...she is still independent & apparently word of mouth has brought her this far ... still she is currently out there doing the small coffee shop/bookstore tour & its encouraging to see how someone of her intelligence & artistry is getting attention...perhaps the tide is turning? debra >>Yes, I saw her! And after hearing her performance, immediately put her cd, "Waking Hour", onto my wish list. It's rare that I have such an instantaneous and strong positive reaction from one song. I loved her piano playing and voice and the song, too, and want to hear more. (One of my thoughts also was "how come no one on the joni list has mentioned her?") << Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: > > Speaking of Letterman, did anyone see this singer/songwriter on Dave's show on Monday? She was very good. Letterman loved her. I was surprised that I had never seen her mentioned here before. She's from the SF area, I think. Anyone? ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 13:43:08 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Fw: If a man has a sex change......NJC > Lucy Hone wrote: > > >This was one for that VP (virtual pub) moment > > > > > > > >WROTE...... > > > >If a man has a sex change to become a woman so that he/she can have a > >relationship with a lesbian woman what does that make him/her???? > > > >I KNOW THIS WOMAN.......... she was a very good male friend of mine for > >years and at the age of 48 (but not to my surprise) took the plunge to have > >her gender dysmorphia (correct name for those who have transgenderism) > >corrected. Petite (married three times and with three children) she took the > >plunge to end the years of cross dressing and secret longing. Brave Brave > >Brave person. > > > colin wrote: > > > I think people who go thru this are indeed extremely courageous. It > takes courage to be who you are for anyone, but to go thru this and it > it entails is courage in the extreme. On the other hand.... this person lost the love of their children and parents and others...in order to (from a cynical point of view) chase a sexual fantasy. Is this happiness? I'm all for people following their hearts, and only that person can decide what is the proper path to take. My reservations are not purely speculative...I have a male friend who surprised me one day after I had known him for twenty years by saying he was a woman trapped in a man's body. Went through hormone treatments, got breasts, stopped short of the 'lopping'. Doesn't seem any happier to me, and since he is not gay, has drastically cut down his chances with women. Has to deal with hostile or confused people in public. It seems to have only caused him more isolation. You think gay people are marginalized by society, transgender is really on the fringe. Even alot of gay people don't understand them. He sure hasn't gotten much sympathy from lesbians, although he considers himself one. My own response would be...play the hand you've been dealt. You are not, IMO a woman because you have surgery, hormones, etc. you are a man trying to approximate a woman, and vice versa. That's just how I see it, and again, I have nothing against people doing this. I just don't really agree with the results. And I consider it extremely dishonest for transgenders to pass themselves off as their new gender secretly. In the case of my friend, it was his call, and he is still my friend.. ....I guess all I'm saying is that there are probaby those who say it was worth it, and others who would say it was not. RR ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 16:48:31 -0500 From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: STANDARD oil Randy rote: << I think BSN is a good candidate for a Joni standard. >> I think AWOHAM (Gee, that looks funny!) would also be a good choice. (Hey, Covers King, how many people have recorded it?) Even though Joni says "fuck" in this song, "fuck" itself is becoming a standard in songs, movies, conversations, e-mails . . . I hope it becomes more of a standard. I fucking love that song. - --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 14:01:59 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: twins/and run-in-the-family stuff NJC Well I do have a cousin my age who is also a lesbian, on my mother's side. And - my Mother IS an identical twin, who my sister and I insist is jealous, because we are who we are ... and we think she is a closet case. BUt still we have no plan to encourage her to date! Even though it would be doing my Dad a great service - LOL! Also my Mother's twin sister is defintiely straight! That was confusing as a child, deciding which "mother" you wanted to go home with! Peace, Susan NP: Shawn Colvin/Killing The Blues - --- Wally wrote: > i know lots of identical twins who are both gay or both straight. i went to > school with a lot of identical twins. was 1960 a special year for twins? at > one point there 6 pairs in my class. > i have lots of aunts, uncles and cousins who are gay. most of them closeted > or already dead, which is amounts to about the same. i wonder if there's > something genetic after all. Catherine wrote: I wonder if there are any identical twins > where one is gay and the other straight? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:23:20 -0500 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: non-english language characters - NJC hey mike, >How come you were able to get two accents into your mail without them being >automatically converted into different letters? did you notice that in the list version of my message, the accents didn't work? and your garcon and merce and didn't work either. all of them worked in your message directly to me, which appeared to be html-formatted. i send my messages in plain text, but do non-unitedstatesian characters using windows' character map (start | run | charmap) the nice thing about character map is when you select a character, the app displays a shortcut key using the number pad. i've memorized the most common ones. the shortcut keys work in all applications in windows, not just microsoft apps. but they never work on the list. anyone technical enough to know why? and is there any foolproof way to send common non-english characters to this list? i'm very curious. trying again. gargon, merch. they look right, in the outgoing message. and this message is definitely plain text. patrick np - florencia en el amazonas, an amazing recent opera loosely derived from garcia marquez' 'love in the time of cholera' did i say amazing? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 23:16:09 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Fw: If a man has a sex change......NJC Randy Remote wrote: > > > >>Lucy Hone wrote: >> >> >> >>>This was one for that VP (virtual pub) moment >>> >>> >>> >>>WROTE...... >>> >>>If a man has a sex change to become a woman so that he/she can have a >>>relationship with a lesbian woman what does that make him/her???? >>> >>>I KNOW THIS WOMAN.......... she was a very good male friend of mine for >>>years and at the age of 48 (but not to my surprise) took the plunge to have >>>her gender dysmorphia (correct name for those who have transgenderism) >>>corrected. Petite (married three times and with three children) she took the >>>plunge to end the years of cross dressing and secret longing. Brave Brave >>>Brave person. >>> >>> >>> >>colin wrote: >> >> >>I think people who go thru this are indeed extremely courageous. It >>takes courage to be who you are for anyone, but to go thru this and it >>it entails is courage in the extreme. >> >> > >On the other hand.... this person lost the love of their children and >parents and others...in order to (from a cynical point of view) chase >a sexual fantasy. > i think this shows a compelte lack of understanding of the conditon. It is not about sex or is it a fantasy. It is about a person being totally at odds with the body they have. Their being one sex and their body being the opposite sex. Must be an awful situation to be in. I doubt veyr much that people go thru this because they desire sex! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 18:46:43 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: fave joni look Could you guys point the way where I might find that pix. Bree and thanks.... >Andrew wrote: ><<garden fountain in a brown Issey Miyake dress, looking >older, wiser and so incredibly beautiful>>>. > > >that's my favourite too, absolutely stunning photograph of Joni...two page >spread in living colour. exquisite. the dress is quite flattering too. > >Mags. > > > > > >You open my heart, you do. >Yes you do. > - JM >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 18:52:11 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Most things going on on the list NJC Mike in Barcelona shared with us all: > Debra, youre obviously a city girl (NYC?) and probably didnt realise that stables > are for horses, cowsheds are for, well, cows, and sheep are more free ranging animals > and can be found all over the hills. Aha, I understand now the need for the boots for stablising in a stationary position. Running all over the hills would be an unusually tiring form of foreplay. > Can you imagine the kick a horse could give you with its hind legs? I recall a bit about horses from my Virginia days. One kick and you'd no longer have that stool you're standing on. Yes, I can imagine the difficulty. > And besides, their legs are too thick to fit inside your wellies. I bow to your knowledge about what will or will not fit inside your wellies. > Sheep are the soft option, as it were. I believe my education is nearing completion with this one. :-) Debra Shea P.S. Are there many sheep in Barcelona or do you feel unusually homesick some days? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 19:00:39 -0500 From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Fw: If a man has a sex change......NJC Randy advises: << My own response would be...play the hand you've been dealt. >> Even if you happen to be the reincarnation of Ethel Merman trapped in a Smurf's body? It ain't easy, buddy. It ain't easy. - --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 21:13:30 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: at odds NJC to me it's pretty much like having a nose job or dying your hair. at odds with your body features. you just go and do something about it. the woman trapped in the body of a male is pretty simple stuff to me (ditto opposite predicament). the lesbian trapped in the body of a male or the gay man trapped in the body of a female are still hard for me to grasp as concepts, though. but i'm working on it. for instance, my younger sister is married to gay man. they haven't had sex for ages. he cruises and does the gay thing and she goes with him and picks up other young gay men and so forth. she has always dated gay men. so maybe she is a gay man trapped in a female body in search of gay men. or her husband is a trapped lesbian. or my sister is in love with me and this is the closest thing to being married to me. i am not the only strange fruit in my family as you see. the times she had sex with women, though, were totally blah. she did it just because there was a guy too and she wanted to do the "schoolgirls kissing and playing" thingy for the guy. straight guys apparently get terribly turned on when they see women having sex with each other. i know because i rent a lot of straight porn. i have had lovers that wanted me to act as if i were a woman while i was screwing them, but they didn't want a transvestite. they wanted a big bear of a guy to be their "little woman" and they wanted their little woman to penetrate them. man, i should write my memoirs. a few days ago i came to the conclusion that the only things i haven't done are kids, animals and corpses. i'm not bragging or anything. why is it that for some of us sex is just like fixing a salad and some other people would have a hemorrhage if i told them about my sexual life? why is sex such taboo? wallyK, sincerely asking <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< It is about a person being totally at odds with the body they have. Their being one sex and their body being the opposite sex. Must be an awful situation to be in. I doubt veyr much that people go thru this because they desire sex! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 21:15:51 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Fw: If a man has a sex change......NJC murphy!! stop ignoring me! can you read my messages or can you not? incidentally, i've always thought that i was julie andrews trapped in the body of moby dick. wallyK, who wants a captain and seven children and a baroness to slap about. - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Murphycopy@aol.com Enviado el: Sabado, 25 de Enero de 2003 09:01 p.m. Para: Randy Remote; colin; joni@smoe.org; lulu.hone@virgin.net Asunto: Re: Fw: If a man has a sex change......NJC Randy advises: << My own response would be...play the hand you've been dealt. >> Even if you happen to be the reincarnation of Ethel Merman trapped in a Smurf's body? It ain't easy, buddy. It ain't easy. - --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 19:32:53 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Christo project okayed for NYC [NJC] Randy Remote wrote: > > > Has anyone here experienced one of Christo's projects? > > Yes, I saw his Running Fence in Sonoma County, Calif. circa > 1976 or so, a big white billowing fabric fence that ran for miles > over hill and dale before plummeting into the Pacific Ocean. > I was skeptical about it at first, but seeing it in person made a > powerful impression. We drove along for miles, and there it was, > amongst the cows and meadows. That sounds great! That's the kind of experience that just can't come across in photos. I can only imagine the "billowing" of the fence or all the different views, over time, as you travel past it. Cows, really? Thanks Randy. When I again have the time to read all the messages, I'll get back to giving my (perhaps obnoxiously) emphatic opinions on politics/religion/abortion/and whatever other controversial topics were covered recently (I do read the subject headings). I'll have to catch it all on the next go round, maybe. (I do hope I didn't miss any poetically expressed Bush bashing.) For now, this is part of the article that was in today's Art Newspaper: Mayor Bloomberg announces that The Gates will take place in 2005 By Jason Edward Kaufman NEW YORK. On 22 January, Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg announced that artists Christo & Jeanne-Claude will be permitted to install their temporary work The Gates in Central Park for two weeks in February 2005. The huge project will consist of 7,500 16-foot-high gateways straddling the park's paved pathways, each to be constructed of recyclable vinyl poles with synthetic yellow fabric suspended from its horizontal crossbar to about 7 feet above the ground. Spaced every 10 or 15 feet, the fabric-flapping portals will follow 23 miles of park pathsnearly matching the length of the artists' 24-mile Running Fence of 1976. The City emphasised that the artists would bear all costs, that no holes would be dug in the ground, and that use of the park would be undisturbed. Officials estimate that the project will generate between $72 million and $136 million in economic output and between $2.5 million and $5 million in City tax revenues. ... never has any temporary installation remotely approached the ambition or scale of the mega-proposal now pending by the wrap stars Christo and Jeanne-Claude. When they first proposed The Gates in 1979, they were turned down, but two decades later, when businessman Michael Bloomberg became mayor, they saw a new window of opportunity. Mr Bloomberg, an arts aficionado, had visited their studio, and when they revived their proposal the mayor quickly announced his support. The Central Park Conservancy, which advises the City on park management, recently gave its approval, and Parks Commissioner Adrian Benepe has now followed suit. Several factors have influenced the latters decision to give the green light: first, the artists have scaled down their original proposal and minimised its environmental impact; second, the cost to the city will be nominal; and third, the City is keenly aware that a free attraction such as The Gates is sure to be an upbeat tourist draw, one with the potential to soothe the Citys still damaged psyche. Michael Kimmelman, chief critic of The New York Times, has argued persuasively in favour of the project, but other commentators have railed against it as dated, overblown, and ugly. The artists maintain it will underline the organic design of the park [and] be a memorable joyous experience for every New Yorker. They are probably right. Even if The Gates project lacks the aesthetic elegance of the Pont Neuf Wrapped (1985), the environmental resonance of Surrounded Islands (1983), and the political punch of Wrapped Reichstag (1995), it will certainly register a notch above another round of Cow Parade. * * * * * Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 19:51:33 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Blue Motel Room and nest JM Standard NJC Bobsart48@aol.com, ending his message, wrote: > > Bob Sart (Bob S hardly ever gets it done as an identifier anymore, any more > than Bob M) :-) I know that Sart is the beginning of your last name but, like Catherine, I've always thought of Bobsart as "Bob's art", especially after reading some of your more artfully constructed posts. Sorry. I can't change it now. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 19:50:15 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Re: turning gay njc Colin, You understand! My partner and I are starting on our sixth wonderful year together. She is not a lesbian. Never been with a woman before me. But the connection between us is very powerful. I've never 'turned out' any one before, and in the beginning we were both a little scared. She told me then she wasn't gay and never would be. I have no fear she will ever leave me, or doubt her love for me. But she likes guys. She likes male bodies. She did not turn gay. But we do love each other deeply, and have made commitments to a future together. She is my fantasy come true............A REPUBLICAN :) just kidding. Kasey Wally Kairuz wrote: >after all, can a heterosexual person >*turn* gay? >wallyK, amazed at all there is to learn about human feelings. > > > imo, no. (i don't lay it out as fact). Being gay is much more than who you have sex with. Men in isoaltion do have sex with eachtoher(prisons etc) but that does not make them gay. Hetero men rape the 'enemey'soldiers during war. it is do with power and humilition-does not make them gay. I think that even now, many gay men marry and try their hardest to be hetero. It usually does not work, causes much grief for all concerned. Gay women too. Being gay, depsite these so called liberal times, is still a difficult life. who would choose it?(not that I would change it either). We are still the one minority it is okay for all the others to dump on and it is sanctioned by religion and state. We provide a valuable service for all those sad people that need someone to hate or feel superior to. bw colinGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 20:08:43 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: I'm back ... and what a long strange Travelogue it's been. Don, I'm so glad you're back! I've missed you and your unique perspective(s). Too bad you missed the raging battle re: T'log. It got so intense that Les demanded that we all talk about the war, politics, religion and sex instead, just so everyone could calm down. Don't worry, though. T'log passions will again flair up sometime. It's a circular thing. Welcome back! Debra Shea Don Rowe wrote: > > Hello jmdl. It's been a while, hasn't it? But with > the release of Travelogue, I couldn't resist a peek > back into the old e-community. Okay, so I did for a > while, but it's now gotten the better of me. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 20:15:43 EST From: Merk54@aol.com Subject: Re: Favorite Joni look In a message dated 1/25/2003 2:11:16 PM Central Standard Time, donjuansrd80@hotmail.com writes: > Joni and David Bowie shared alot of common > facial features. I also agree. I've cropped one of my Joni drawings in very tight on the face, and some people think it's Joni, while others have questioned whether it Bowie. The are some stricking similarities. Jack ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:20:13 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: at odds NJC Wally Kairuz wrote: > to me it's pretty much like having a nose job or dying your hair. at odds > with your body features. you just go and do something about it. It is more complicated than that if you have a gender change and then say you are that gender. I think you are still your original gender, augmented to appear otherwise. > why is it that for some of us sex is > just like fixing a salad and some other people would have a hemorrhage if i > told them about my sexual life? why is sex such taboo? You must fix some wild salads!! But why is sex so taboo, when violence is accepted, even encouraged on a mass level? We are a weird species..... RR ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 20:35:11 -0500 From: "Blair Fraipont" Subject: Re: at odds NJC Personally, I love how brutally upfront you are being about it. Sex is so often thought of as a private affair. My parents are raised not to talk about sex, nor to talk to others, even close friends about it, they feel it makes a person look sleezy or like a tramp or that they hold no morals or respect. I don't know, sex is just sex, but there are the apropos times to discuss it and not. But, most of us know when. :) Blair NP: Poverty Train, "Laura Nyro" > >to me it's pretty much like having a nose job or dying your hair. at odds >with your body features. you just go and do something about it. the woman >trapped in the body of a male is pretty simple stuff to me (ditto opposite >predicament). the lesbian trapped in the body of a male or the gay man >trapped in the body of a female are still hard for me to grasp as concepts, >though. but i'm working on it. >for instance, my younger sister is married to gay man. they haven't had sex >for ages. he cruises and does the gay thing and she goes with him and picks >up other young gay men and so forth. she has always dated gay men. so maybe >she is a gay man trapped in a female body in search of gay men. or her >husband is a trapped lesbian. or my sister is in love with me and this is >the closest thing to being married to me. i am not the only strange fruit >in >my family as you see. >the times she had sex with women, though, were totally blah. she did it >just >because there was a guy too and she wanted to do the "schoolgirls kissing >and playing" thingy for the guy. straight guys apparently get terribly >turned on when they see women having sex with each other. i know because i >rent a lot of straight porn. >i have had lovers that wanted me to act as if i were a woman while i was >screwing them, but they didn't want a transvestite. they wanted a big bear >of a guy to be their "little woman" and they wanted their little woman to >penetrate them. man, i should write my memoirs. a few days ago i came to >the >conclusion that the only things i haven't done are kids, animals and >corpses. i'm not bragging or anything. why is it that for some of us sex is >just like fixing a salad and some other people would have a hemorrhage if i >told them about my sexual life? why is sex such taboo? >wallyK, sincerely asking > > ><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > > >It is about a person being totally >at odds with the body they have. Their being one sex and their body >being the opposite sex. Must be an awful situation to be in. I doubt >veyr much that people go thru this because they desire sex! _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:42:49 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Fw: If a man has a sex change......NJC > Randy Remote wrote: >> On the other hand.... this person lost the love of their children >> and >> parents and others...in order to (from a cynical point of view) >> chase >> a sexual fantasy. >> > colin wrote: > i think this shows a compelte lack of understanding of the conditon. > It is not about sex or is it a fantasy. Poor choice of words. I meant it as "gender fantasy". I'm not saying that it is. I think each case would be different. For you to say that it is not a fantasy and not about sex....sometimes it might be. There are as many different kinds of humans as grains of sand, and the mind is a powerful thing. When you take the subconscious, early experiences, imagination and all of that into account, it's hard to make generalizations about something as complicated as trans- genderism. > It is about a person being totally at odds with the body they have. > Their being one sex and their body being the opposite sex. This would be impossible to prove, one way or another. Alot of people would counter by saying it is a psychosis or delusion. > Must be an awful situation to be in. Agreed. My point was that the original post said how happy this person was, and I was just saying that there is alot of baggage that comes with it. Losing your children and parent's love is no small deal. And then there is the social stigma and the difficulties it will cause in your life. If a person weighs all that, and decides to 'become' the opposite sex, I support their decision to live their life as they see fit. Just know it is a rocky path, to say the least. > I doubt veyr much that people go thru this because they desire sex! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 21:08:11 -0500 From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Joni standards Oh, yeah, I forgot. "Man from Mars." Don't laugh. "Born Free" was written for a cat, too. - --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 21:26:29 -0500 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: jan 25!!! (njc) Happy Birthday Jody! Hope you are enjoying the evening ;-) Heather - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Wally Kairuz Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 12:54 AM To: Scott and Jody; joni@smoe.org; NortheastJonifest@yahoogroups.com Subject: jan 25!!! (njc) oh jody jody how i miss our late night talks at ashara's!!! H A P P Y B I R T H D A Y you crazy gal!!! have a great day with *that guy*. love, wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 21:54:58 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Fw: If a man has a sex change......NJC --- Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: > Randy advises: > > << My own response would be...play the hand you've > been dealt. > >> > > Even if you happen to be the reincarnation of Ethel > Merman trapped in a Smurf's body? > I hear they're working on a hormone that will turn your skin blue. In the meantime, you could hold your breath... ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 21:57:09 -0500 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: at odds NJC Pretty well put Blair though I have a tiny little difference ... that is there is sex and making love. You are correct in saying that "sex is just sex, but there are the apropos times to discuss it and not. But, most of us know when. :)" When I make love with my husband, I consider it a private thing between us. The topic of sex is good fuel for a conversation though :-) My parents were also uptight about the subject of sex. Heck, when I got my period my mother just handed me some sanitary napkins and left the room! I learned more from my girlfriends. I really wish my parents were a little more playful when it came to the topic of sex. I enjoyed Michele Kort's biography on Laura Nyro also. I wish I knew this much about her before my opportunity to speak with her. I think we could have spoken more. What did you think of the Joni quotes? Best- Heather - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Blair Fraipont Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 8:35 PM To: wallykai@fibertel.com.ar; colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk; guitarzan@direcpc.com Cc: joni@smoe.org; lulu.hone@virgin.net Subject: Re: at odds NJC Personally, I love how brutally upfront you are being about it. Sex is so often thought of as a private affair. My parents are raised not to talk about sex, nor to talk to others, even close friends about it, they feel it makes a person look sleezy or like a tramp or that they hold no morals or respect. I don't know, sex is just sex, but there are the apropos times to discuss it and not. But, most of us know when. :) Blair NP: Poverty Train, "Laura Nyro" > >to me it's pretty much like having a nose job or dying your hair. at odds >with your body features. you just go and do something about it. the woman >trapped in the body of a male is pretty simple stuff to me (ditto opposite >predicament). the lesbian trapped in the body of a male or the gay man >trapped in the body of a female are still hard for me to grasp as concepts, >though. but i'm working on it. >for instance, my younger sister is married to gay man. they haven't had sex >for ages. he cruises and does the gay thing and she goes with him and picks >up other young gay men and so forth. she has always dated gay men. so maybe >she is a gay man trapped in a female body in search of gay men. or her >husband is a trapped lesbian. or my sister is in love with me and this is >the closest thing to being married to me. i am not the only strange fruit >in >my family as you see. >the times she had sex with women, though, were totally blah. she did it >just >because there was a guy too and she wanted to do the "schoolgirls kissing >and playing" thingy for the guy. straight guys apparently get terribly >turned on when they see women having sex with each other. i know because i >rent a lot of straight porn. >i have had lovers that wanted me to act as if i were a woman while i was >screwing them, but they didn't want a transvestite. they wanted a big bear >of a guy to be their "little woman" and they wanted their little woman to >penetrate them. man, i should write my memoirs. a few days ago i came to >the >conclusion that the only things i haven't done are kids, animals and >corpses. i'm not bragging or anything. why is it that for some of us sex is >just like fixing a salad and some other people would have a hemorrhage if i >told them about my sexual life? why is sex such taboo? >wallyK, sincerely asking > > ><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > > >It is about a person being totally >at odds with the body they have. Their being one sex and their body >being the opposite sex. Must be an awful situation to be in. I doubt >veyr much that people go thru this because they desire sex! _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #61 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)