From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #51 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, January 22 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 051 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Suggestions (NJC) [colin ] Re: since we *like* fighting over oil..... NJC ["Lori Fye" ] Re: A New Standard? [FMYFL@aol.com] Dancing (NJC) [Steve Dulson ] NJC -- Reproductive Rights ["Louis Lynch" ] Re: NJC Reproductive rights NJC ["kasey simpson" ] Re: NJC -- Reproductive Rights ["Lori Fye" ] Re: since we *like* fighting over oil..... NJC ["chuty001" ] in HISTORY [] more HISTORY [] Re: speaking english NJC ["Lori Fye" ] Re: A New Standard? NJC now [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: A New Standard? NJC now [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: since we *like* fighting over oil..... NJC [colin ] Re: NJC Reproductive rights NJC ["Lavieri, Vince [185776]" ] Re: in HISTORY [David Sadowski ] Re: A New Standard? NJC now [David Sadowski ] PC on the JMDL (njc) [Les Irvin ] Re: A New Standard? NJC now [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: speaking english NJC ["Cynthia Vickery" ] Re: more HISTORY [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: A New Standard? NJC now [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: Antiwar groups NJC, PC ["Kate Bennett" ] Night Ride Home ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: speaking english NJC [Susan Guzzi ] Re: speaking english NJC [colin ] Re: speaking english NJC [colin ] Subject: Frank Zappa's / Joni's house ["Kate Bennett" ] re ( NJC) Reproductive rights [cul heath ] [none] ["Mick Mick" ] Re: speaking english NJC ["Lori Fye" ] Re: A New Standard? ["Stephen Toogood" ] Re: Night Ride Home ["Stephen Toogood" ] Re: speaking english NJC ["Arlene T." ] Free will and determinism NJC [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: Free will and determinism NJC [waytoblu ] Night Ride Home [Little Bird ] Re: Free will and determinism NJC [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: speaking english NJC [Fauchja@aol.com] Re: speaking english NJC ["Lori Fye" ] Claire and Amelia [gerime ] mlk cont njc ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: speaking english NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Free will and determinism NJC [colin ] Re: Free will and determinism NJC [colin ] Re: Free will and determinism NJC [colin ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:20:54 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Suggestions (NJC) > and I > resent you telling me we don't. then we are even! I resent suggestions about what shoild and shouldn't be discussed. have a good day bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:21:45 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: since we *like* fighting over oil..... NJC Colin wrote: > I didn't realise Americans didn't speak English until my vist there! It's true. We speak "American." And some Americans don't even do that very well. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:23:23 +0000 From: "Timothy Spong" Subject: "A Case of You" -- a "standard" by inclusion on "Both Sides Now" On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, at 18:48:59 EST, SCJoniGuy@aol.com (Bob Muller), on Subject: A New Standard?, wrote: OK, so today I found out that yet another jazz vocalist has done a cover of "Blue Motel Room" - Claire Martin, who also has done a most excellent version of "Be Cool". So that makes 4 covers of BMR that were released in 2002. Not that it's going to overtake McCartney's "Yesterday" at any moment, but I wonder if it's slowly becoming a new "standard"? It certainly deserves to be! And is it the most deserving song of Joni's to become her next standard? In my opinion, these already are: Both Sides Now Big Yellow Taxi Woodstock Chelsea Morning Wondering what y'all think? Note: those who gripe about NJC threads maybe want to contribute to this one instead of complaining, or you know, start a Joni thread one of your own! :~) Bob Subsequent posts nominated "A Case of You," among others, but none of the posts on Wednesday's Digest -- Tuesday's posts -- made the point that, by including ACOY on "Both Sides Now" (the album/CD), Joni evidently views it as a standard. Tim Spong Dover, Del., U.S.A. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:31:07 -0500 From: Subject: dancin' CLOWN BRYAN: Funny, isn't it, about DANCIN' CLOWN? I've always liked it myself. It's a rather affectionate throwaway. It really MOVES. I think Billy and Tom really belong in the mix. And I like the lyrics. Like, especially, "You hear the SWOOSH of jungle blades / And the crackle of northern ice." (Have you seen the video? Joni and one of her beloved cats? It's really funny and sweet.) To each his own, I guess. In any case: you're not alone. ;-) Personally, when playing CMIARS, I tend to skip LAKOTA (shrill), TEA LEAF (wonderful story; nothing melody -- pity) , COOL WATER (blah) and REOCCURING DREAM (banal). MICHAEL in Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:38:35 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: A New Standard? > In a message dated 1/21/2003 9:39:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, > messling@enter.net writes: > > > What exactly makes a song a "standard?" Just sheer > > repetition? > This got me wondering too Deb, and Bob's reply is pretty much my thoughts. I did a little research and read someone's opinion on the subject. "The word "standard," when applied to music, is an evocative one. It implies music that everybody knows, songs that we instinctively sing along with, never stopping to wonder how or why we know all the words" "In many cases, people use the word "standard" to describe any song that most people know by heart -- everything from the national anthem to "Hey Jude."" "In order to prove itself as a standard, a song must survive at least a handful of decades." I thought this part was interesting. "In his book, Morath refers to a quote attributed to Bob Dylan in the 1960s: "Tin Pan Alley is dead. I killed it."While Dylan certainly cannot take all of the credit, the singer-songwriter convergence of the 1960s did change the way popular music worked. Up until then, the songwriter and the performer had separate roles.People like Dylan, Joni Mitchell and the Beatles changed all that. And that has hindered the production of songs that have the potential to become timeless, Morath said." For the full article see : http://www.louisvillescene.com/music/features/2002/20020707standards1.html Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:46:18 -0800 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Dancing (NJC) Bob wrote: >Don't know about dancing to it, but hey, I suppose one can dance to anything. Except architecture! :) - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:01:12 -0500 From: "Louis Lynch" Subject: NJC -- Reproductive Rights Well, I'm impressed at how the JMDL is still brave enough to tackle the = big issues. Abortion is an extremely sensitive and personal issue. It's good that = some women, like Lori, are comfortable sharing their experiences and = feelings. It's also good if some women don't care to share their = personal experiences or feelings. My personal position on abortion, and my advice to all men out there -- = including the court justices and other potentates -- Fellas, if you feel = strongly against abortion, then don't have one. No uterus, no vote. =20 (That doesn't mean we can't share our opinions and feelings. It just = means we men really don't have the right to choose what a woman does = with her body.) I think that God is supreme love, regardless of our individual feelings = or actions. The concepts of sin, and wrong, and right, and forgiveness, = and atonement, and even interpretation of God's word are all secondary = concepts when compared to that great love. That expression "hate the = sin, love the sinner" applies no matter how we interpret an issue. Love = should pre-empt all our other personal or political feelings. So the bottom line is whether you're pro this or anti that, love is = still the greatest power, and the greatest beauty. Peace, Harper Lou www.louislynch.com www.theharpsmassage.com [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type text/x-vcard which had a name of Louis Lynch.vcf] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:47:39 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Re: NJC Reproductive rights NJC I wasn't suggesting they do. Only saying that the idea of life beginning is more of a religious (not Christian) debate. If more RTLers looked at it more like science there may not be as big a gap in believes. As Vince said it's only tissue until it is viable outside the womb. Take the life issue away and reduce the debate. I believe Vince is a Christian also. Kasey > I think that may be why so many RTLers only see one side, God cannot > be taken out of the equation. There are a number of people on this list (and elsewhere) who I would consider to be REAL Christians who are pro-choice. Surely they don't take God out of the equation. LoriGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:52:58 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: NJC -- Reproductive Rights Well, Harper Lou! Where have you been??? Thank you for your intelligent and reasonable opinions. It's good to see you *here* again. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:11:55 -0500 From: "chuty001" Subject: Re: since we *like* fighting over oil..... NJC > Colin wrote: > > > I didn't realise Americans didn't speak English until my vist there! > > It's true. We speak "American." And some Americans don't even do that > very well. > > Lori > Here in Canada I generally don't have a clue what anybodys saying. Most I meet use ESL or not at all. Hand jestures work well. Colin the streets of London are safe again. My Father-in-law is on a plane heading this way.:-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:38:17 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: speaking english NJC i feel the opposite when i hear british speakers, especially londoners. even very educated speakers seem to have adopted a lot of cockney sounds. london's *dave* rhymes with america's *dive*, for example. i thought all that had been cleared up in my fair lady. don't people in london feel it is vulgar to sound that way? you hear it even on the bbc. and then there are northern england and scotland! when i see a scottish movie, it takes a while to realize they're speaking english and not a dutch or danish. when i spoke over the phone with you colin, i had such a hard time understanding you, though you have such a beautiful voice -- much lower than i had expected. chris marshall is easy to understand -- and les ross too, though i was terrified that he would sound so terribly dialectal. to me the person with the most nearly perfect british accent on the list is john van tiel -- and he is dutch! of the canadians, mags has the most delightful sounds. and the american winners: maggie mcnally, rose and bob muller, each in her/her category. i still have to find the perfect new yorker, though (in more ways than one...) wallyK, pidgin english speaker - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de chuty001 Enviado el: Miircoles, 22 de Enero de 2003 02:12 p.m. Para: joni@smoe.org Asunto: Re: since we *like* fighting over oil..... NJC > Colin wrote: > > > I didn't realise Americans didn't speak English until my vist there! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:45:39 -0500 From: Subject: in HISTORY In the This Month is History section of jmdl, it tells us that THOSL peaked at #4 on the U.S. charts, and HEJIRA peaked at #13. That's amazing, huh? With no hits on the radio? Wow. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:49:08 -0500 From: Subject: more HISTORY And further to that, was WTRF Joni's (misguided) attempt to climb back up the charts? Is that why she -- with notable exceptions, of course -- went all "simple" on us? Just a thought. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:51:53 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: speaking english NJC Wally wrote: > when i spoke over the phone with you colin, i had such a hard time > understanding you, though you have such a beautiful voice -- much > lower than i had expected. That's funny ... several years ago Colin called me on the phone, and he commented that my voice was NOT as low as he had expected. He said he thought I would sound "more butch!" : D > to me the person with the most nearly perfect british accent on the > list is john van tiel -- and he is dutch! I agree. That reminds me of when I lived in Germany ... some friends and I walked down the street from my apartment to a sandwich shop, and the young woman behind the counter was so pleased to discover that we were Americans because she could use her English, which she had learned while an exchange student in the U.S. She then proceeded to speak with a VERY pronounced U.S. Southern accent. It FLOORED us! Turned out she had studied in Kentucky. And she wasn't the only European I encountered who spoke as if they had grown up in the deep South. It's SO strange to hear. > of the canadians, mags has the most delightful sounds. That's true, okay. ; ) Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 13:19:24 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: A New Standard? NJC now In a message dated 1/22/2003 11:38:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, FMYFL writes: > Up until then, the songwriter and the performer had > separate roles.People like Dylan, Joni Mitchell and the > Beatles changed all > that. Thanks for sharing that info, Jimmy...I sort of alluded to that thought in my mentioning the 'post-rock era'. If you look at the vast majority of the pre-rock era standards, they're mostly theatre show tunes. While show tunes still become standards today, I would imagine that the shift has been towards pop songs (like Yesterday, Both Sides Now, The Times They Are A-Changing) becoming standards as opposed to show tunes. It will be interesting to see 25-30 years from now which songs are still being recorded and which have been laid to rest. Hopefully we'll all still be here to debate them! :~) Bob NP: Fleetwood Mac, "Silver Springs" (demo) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 13:19:53 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: A New Standard? NJC now In a message dated 1/22/2003 11:38:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, FMYFL writes: > Up until then, the songwriter and the performer had > separate roles.People like Dylan, Joni Mitchell and the > Beatles changed all > that. Thanks for sharing that info, Jimmy...I sort of alluded to that thought in my mentioning the 'post-rock era'. If you look at the vast majority of the pre-rock era standards, they're mostly theatre show tunes. While show tunes still become standards today, I would imagine that the shift has been towards pop songs (like Yesterday, Both Sides Now, The Times They Are A-Changing) becoming standards as opposed to show tunes. It will be interesting to see 25-30 years from now which songs are still being recorded and which have been laid to rest. Hopefully we'll all still be here to debate them! :~) Bob NP: Fleetwood Mac, "Silver Springs" (demo) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 18:24:13 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: since we *like* fighting over oil..... NJC > Colin the streets of London are safe again. My Father-in-law is on a plane >heading this way.:-) > JOhn will be relieved.i sahll tell him it is safe to venture out again. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 18:27:27 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: speaking english NJC >when i spoke over the phone with you colin, i had such a hard time >understanding you > huh? I speak 'posh' English, so I am told. Les is Scots and Chris I think is the same as me! Maybe you or I were pissed at the time.(drunk). i don't drink. >, though you have such a beautiful voice -- much lower than >i had expected. > You are not the only one to say that. i think people expect me to be rather camp with a falsetto! > > If you want to hear a lovely speaking voice, warm and musical, listen to Cindy Vickery. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 13:38:28 -0500 From: "Lavieri, Vince [185776]" Subject: Re: NJC Reproductive rights NJC kasey wrote: "As Vince said it's only tissue until it is viable outside the womb. Take the life issue away and reduce the debate. I believe Vince is a Christian also." Vince certainly believes that Vince is a Christian... I don't believe that I said "it's only tissue" and if I did, that was not contextually what I was going for so perhaps I mis spoke. It is tissue which is potential life but it is not life itself and not a person. Becuase of what this particular tissue represents, it makes the question very serious indeed. Kasey also said the definition of when life begins is a religious question. That I would exactly agree with, it is a religious question, and that is why one particular religious interpretation cannot be engrained in law. There is great divergence within Christendom on that answer, as well as within Judaism. And there is inconsistency within the opinions. And then there is the fact that we have the establishment clause on religion in the Constitution anyway let alone the diversity of beliefs, which leads us back to being pro choice for the law. People are then left free to practice their particular beliefs in accordance with the case law that does govern abortion stemming from Roe v Wade, with grants a limited right to an abortion in the 2nd trimester and a very, very limited right to abortion in the 3rd trimester. The Roman Catholic understanding is not that old as being canon or doctrine., very recent, within the last several hundred years. No part of the church ever considered life as being dated friom conception, just the potential for life being dated such, which is why liturgically miscarriages are not considered deaths, but medical events, and a miscarried fetus is disposed of (hopefuilly with respect) and not accorded a funeral, because a person did not die, rather, a medical event occured. A tragedy certainly, but not death, because there was yet no life. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:40:25 -0600 From: David Sadowski Subject: Re: since we *like* fighting over oil..... NJC How's it goin', eh? Hoser... chuty001 wrote: >>Colin wrote: >> >> >> >>>I didn't realise Americans didn't speak English until my vist there! >>> >>> >>It's true. We speak "American." And some Americans don't even do that >>very well. >> >>Lori >> >> >> > Here in Canada I generally don't have a clue what anybodys saying. Most I >meet use ESL or not at all. Hand jestures work well. > Colin the streets of London are safe again. My Father-in-law is on a plane >heading this way.:-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 18:41:37 +0000 From: colin Subject: don't discuss-suggestionNJC Upon reflection, perhaps people are right when they 'suggest' we don't discuss abortion, politics, sexuality or religion because it upsets people and has 'casued' some to leave the list or fall out. I woulld add that we ought not discuss the following for the same reasons: Travelogue Both Sides Now Dog Eat Dog Mingus Chalkmark For The Roses etc Joni's voice. her smoking habit her attitude Any new Joni release. That is just bound to upset people. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:45:04 -0600 From: David Sadowski Subject: Re: in HISTORY Well, over a period of years Joni built up her name in the pop marketplace until she had a loyal following who would buy her albums when they came out. Sales continued to be good until she stopped touring and recording for some years, and as her records and shows gradually became more infrequent, her audience declined. mtotzke@gosympatico.ca wrote: >In the This Month is History section of jmdl, it >tells us that THOSL peaked at #4 on the U.S. charts, >and HEJIRA peaked at #13. That's amazing, huh? >With no hits on the radio? Wow. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:48:26 -0600 From: David Sadowski Subject: Re: A New Standard? NJC now It becomes a "standard" after being played a lot, to the point where some large portion of the general public would recognize it. Take YMCA by the Village People, for instance. In the 20+ years since it came out, this song has been all over the place. SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 1/22/2003 11:38:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, FMYFL writes: > > > >>Up until then, the songwriter and the performer had >>separate roles.People like Dylan, Joni Mitchell and the >>Beatles changed all >>that. >> >> > >Thanks for sharing that info, Jimmy...I sort of alluded to that thought in my mentioning the 'post-rock era'. If you look at the vast majority of the pre-rock era standards, they're mostly theatre show tunes. While show tunes still become standards today, I would imagine that the shift has been towards pop songs (like Yesterday, Both Sides Now, The Times They Are A-Changing) becoming standards as opposed to show tunes. > >It will be interesting to see 25-30 years from now which songs are still being recorded and which have been laid to rest. Hopefully we'll all still be here to debate them! :~) > >Bob > >NP: Fleetwood Mac, "Silver Springs" (demo) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:07:01 -0700 From: Les Irvin Subject: PC on the JMDL (njc) Joniphiles - Two facts: 1) In the last three digests, exactly two thirds of the posts were labelled NJC (70 out of 105). 2) Some time ago, I set up a JMDL-PC list at Yahoo. This list may be used to move heated political debates off the JMDL and into another forum. My intent and hope was that it be a self-regulating process, that one of those involved in the political discussion would initiate the transition to the PC list. Membership is unrestricted, immediate and unsupervised - gained by sending a message to . You'll be subbed faster than you can get your boxing gloves laced up. Messages are posted to that list by sending a message to No opinions here, just the facts, m'am. :-) Les NP: Alice Cooper "Caught in a Dream" (guilty pleasure #284) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:16:21 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: A New Standard? NJC now In a message dated 1/22/2003 1:48:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, dsadowski@ameritech.net writes: > Take YMCA > by the Village People, for instance. In the 20+ years > since it came > out, this song has been all over the place. Yes, but this is a different issue. There aren't any other recordings of YMCA, so it could not be referred to in the same breath as songs that have been done by a variety of performers. What category it falls into I don't know...other than just a novelty record or a hit record unto itself. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 13:10:38 -0600 From: "Cynthia Vickery" Subject: Re: speaking english NJC <> how sweet, colin! i was thinking how timely this thread appeared, since we just compared accents on the telephone yesterday.... it was wonderful talking with you! (and incidentally, mags and lori and susan, and all you others who insist that i sound sooooo southern... please note that colin has not referred to my accent in his assessment (see above) at all. why? clearly, it's BECAUSE I HAVE NO ACCENT!!) ;o) c ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:21:17 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: more HISTORY In a message dated 1/22/2003 12:49:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, mtotzke@gosympatico.ca writes: > And further to that, was WTRF Joni's (misguided) > attempt to climb back up the charts? Don't know that I'd call it "misguided", but I think that the answer is an obvious yes. After Court & Spark, Joni's star slowly dimmed in terms of popularity, airplay, etc until Mingus when it was pretty much snuffed out completely, critically & commercially. WTRF (and the resulting year-long world tour that followed it in 1983) was an attempt to re-enter the marketplace. How much influence Klein had at this point is anybody's guess, and in any case, I've always been delighted with the results! Bob NP: The Mike Flowers Pops, "Freebase" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:25:23 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: A New Standard? NJC now In a message dated 1/22/2003 2:16:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, SCJoniGuy writes: > There aren't any other recordings of YMCA, Well...I should have looked before I leapt!! YMCA has been covered quite a bit, certainly enough to label it a modern-day standard. Woe is us! :~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:32:44 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Antiwar groups NJC, PC i'll drink to that! lol... kakki>> I think we all need a pitcher of martinis and a nice little beach somewhere at this point LOL ...Enlightenment is not found by sitting in one box and pulling the lid closed over the top ;-)<< ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:33:16 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Night Ride Home i just love love love love this title cut & have been playing it in my set lately (& thinking of putting it on my next cd!!! woohoo! whenever that miracle happens...lol...) last gig i ended the evening with nrh because it is such a lovely way to say goodbye, goodnight, have a safe drive home...often i get comments on how much folks like the song & if i wrote it (oh, i wish!) but still it is great to turn people on to a joni song they've never heard before... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:36:01 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: speaking english NJC Colin! Please don't give her any fuel for her fire! Cindy HAS an accent - it is sweet and musical and all that other gobbledy goop you spread out there, but she HAS an accent! Oh and Cindy, are you going to tell us Colin doesn't have an accent as well?! ;-P Only midwesterners REALLY speak english clearly! Peace, Susan - --- Cynthia Vickery wrote: > < listen to Cindy Vickery.>> > > how sweet, colin! i was thinking how timely this thread > appeared, since we just compared accents on the telephone > yesterday.... it was wonderful talking with you! > > (and incidentally, mags and lori and susan, and all you others > who insist that i sound sooooo southern... please note that > colin has not referred to my accent in his assessment (see above) > at all. why? clearly, it's BECAUSE I HAVE NO ACCENT!!) > > ;o) > > c Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 19:41:40 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: speaking english NJC Cynthia Vickery wrote: > why? clearly, it's BECAUSE I HAVE NO ACCENT!!) > why, of course you haven't........ > >;o) > >c ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 19:44:06 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: speaking english NJC > Oh and >Cindy, are you going to tell us Colin doesn't have an accent as well?! ;-P > she'd be correct if she did. I have no accent. No regional twang, no nothing. comes from never being in one place long enough to get one. > >Only midwesterners REALLY speak english clearly! > >Peace, >Susan > > >--- Cynthia Vickery wrote: > > >><>listen to Cindy Vickery.>> >> >>how sweet, colin! i was thinking how timely this thread >>appeared, since we just compared accents on the telephone >>yesterday.... it was wonderful talking with you! >> >>(and incidentally, mags and lori and susan, and all you others >>who insist that i sound sooooo southern... please note that >>colin has not referred to my accent in his assessment (see above) >>at all. why? clearly, it's BECAUSE I HAVE NO ACCENT!!) >> >>;o) >> >>c >> >> >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. >http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:53:15 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Subject: Frank Zappa's / Joni's house fun to see this interesting place - what a history! houdini especially, wow!...speaking of hedonism...i remember reading an interview with dweezil zappa where he said that he never interested in doing drugs because of his up close & personal experience of observing so many of his dad's friends getting high & acting like idiots... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:00:00 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Subject: Frank Zappa's / Joni's house njc >>The cabin reached another level of notoriety in the 60's when it was inhabited by rock legend Frank Zappa. It was recognized as the center of Hollywood psychedelia and L.A.'s crazed Rock scene, being home to John Mayall of the Blues Breakers<< i remember loving that john mayall album (laurel canyon) & looking at the pictures of him in his loincloth on what must have been that property...lol.... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:34:38 -0800 From: Scott Price Subject: Re: more HISTORY At 02:21 PM 1/22/2003 -0500, SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > >>mtotzke@gosympatico.ca writes: > >> And further to that, was WTRF Joni's (misguided) > >> attempt to climb back up the charts? > >Don't know that I'd call it "misguided", but I think that the answer is an >obvious yes. *If* Joni was ever thinking about mining a formula for mainstream commercial success, I'd have to believe it was on this album (WTRF). But I have always thought that the album was more an examination or a celebration of falling in love and being in love. If her then-budding relationship with Klein resulted in a more pop-friendly musical presentation then it was secondary. As Bob states, she had indeed been raked over the coals for "Mingus" and judging from the radical differences between "Minugs" and WTRF it is obvious she was going for a major change of style. If you look at each of her albums, starting with STAS, there is a natural progression...a growth in her songwriting...and an increasing complexity coupled with experimentation. Starting with FTR all the way through Minus you can hear jazz becoming a bigger and bigger influence. With WTRF she discarded many of the jazz phrasings and colors (except for "Moon at the Window" which to my ear makes to illusions as to its jazzy structure). I would not call it "misguided" either. But I do feel the album was an abrupt change of direction for Joni. And I think it was a combination of things which all contributed to the finished product...her newly-found love (Klein), a move away from the critics and more toward a broader audience than what she found in the jazz world, and the collaboration itself with Larry...*his* input no doubt had a lot to do with how this album turned out. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:22:14 -0800 From: cul heath Subject: re ( NJC) Reproductive rights Because this is America, this is the land of the free, and, just as Dubya declared just last week, the U.S. is all about the sanctity of life -- unless of course you're Iraqi or poor or a dead mother in Africa, or gay or a minority or on welfare or, you know, sexually attuned and aware and fully in command of your own divine self-realized feminine power. They will try. And for the most part, they will fail. Here is why -- http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2003/01/22/notes012203.DTL&nl=fix ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 21:15:53 +0000 From: "Mick Mick" Subject: [none] In a message dated 1/21/2003 10:06:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, BRYAN8847@aol.com writes: >Perhaps I am alone in my affection for the song... > Yes, Bryan...when you dance with this clown, you're dancing alone. Bob No you're not Bob. 'nother one here.............................. let's DEYANCE :o) _________________________________________________________________ Use MSN Messenger to send music and pics to your friends http://messenger.msn.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 13:46:20 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: speaking english NJC > Only midwesterners REALLY speak english clearly! Ahem. We need to narrow that a bit. Only midwesterners who grew up near the Cleveland Ohio area REALLY speak English clearly. (Right, Janine?) Cleveland is where broadcasters used to be sent to learn how to speak with the quintessential American "non" accent. ; ) Lori, from North Canton, OH ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 21:35:55 -0000 From: "Stephen Toogood" Subject: Re: A New Standard? Yes it most certainly does deserve to be a standard. It's just so timeless (the whole of Hejira is) ans smooth. Also it's nice to hear more of her songs after Blue being covered. I think that might have been the first recording Joni played electric guitar too! Plus you can also add to the list:- 'A Case Of You' 'The Circle Game' 'River' and perhaps 'Urge for Going' I think 'For The Roses' and 'Cactus Tree' should be covered more aswell. I've always wondered how good 'For The Roses' would sound on piano. Stephen Toogood "God goes up the cimney Like childhood Santa Claus The good slaves love the good book A rebel loves a cause" - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 11:48 PM Subject: A New Standard? > OK, so today I found out that yet another jazz vocalist has done a cover of > "Blue Motel Room" - Claire Martin, who also has done a most excellent version > of "Be Cool". So that makes 4 covers of BMR that were released in 2002. Not > that it's going to overtake McCartney's "Yesterday" at any moment, but I > wonder if it's slowly becoming a new "standard"? It certainly deserves to be! > > And is it the most deserving song of Joni's to become her next standard? In > my opinion, these already are: > > Both Sides Now > Big Yellow Taxi > Woodstock > Chelsea Morning > > Wondering what y'all think? Note: those who gripe about NJC threads maybe > want to contribute to this one instead of complaining, or you know, start a > Joni thread one of your own! :~) > > Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 21:41:38 -0000 From: "Stephen Toogood" Subject: Re: Night Ride Home I've also been giving NRI a bit more of my time recently. Where I find half of the songs a bit weak the ones that are good are really good! The theme of the album definately seems to be 'growing old' so who knows a few more years and I might love the rest of it! Stephen Toogood "God goes up the cimney Like childhood Santa Claus The good slaves love the good book A rebel loves a cause" - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 8:27 AM Subject: Night Ride Home > Hello all, > > Ive been listening to NRH non stop lately..Ive always liked Passion Play, Come in From the Cold,and the title track but i never really gave the rest of the album much of a chance..Let me tell you once I did it was all over..The most shocking song on the album for me was Winfall Everything for nothing...Shocking because I really felt like dancing around my apartment(ok i did) whatta kick ass beat...Seriously imagine dancin at your fave club(unless you are into techno) and that song comes on... not very hard to dance to...That song is about her housekeeper right??i remember reading a story about that situation..Anyway just wanted to share my new found love for winfall hope you all are havin a wonderful week... peace love and light your way > > ****kevin**** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:49:25 -0500 From: "Arlene T." Subject: Re: speaking english NJC Ya mean my New Yawk accent ain't clear English? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lori Fye" To: "Susan Guzzi" ; "Cynthia Vickery" ; Cc: Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 4:46 PM Subject: Re: speaking english NJC : > Only midwesterners REALLY speak english clearly! : : Ahem. We need to narrow that a bit. Only midwesterners who grew up : near the Cleveland Ohio area REALLY speak English clearly. (Right, : Janine?) : : Cleveland is where broadcasters used to be sent to learn how to speak : with the quintessential American "non" accent. : : ; ) : : Lori, : from North Canton, OH : ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:03:48 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Free will and determinism NJC Coliin, if god or anyone else knows about (can see) the future, it means the future is determined. If the future is determined, then we have no free will, only the illusion of it. Following your example, if god has a vcr tape of my life, and he fast-forwards and sees me buying house number 1, it follows that the time I spent looking at house number 2 was time wasted, because all along it was "written" -- already determined -- that house number 1 was the house I would buy. Otherwise god could not have had a tape of me doing that. Sarah From: colin Just because 'God knows everything', would not do away with free will. He can see ahead and therefore see what happens. Being able to see the future does not indicate that He controls it. (the above assumes that God exists and that He does know everything) simply put, lets say God has a vcr tape of your life. he FF and sees you buying a house. Just by FF the tape, does mean he made buy the house. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 17:20:40 -0500 (EST) From: waytoblu Subject: Re: Free will and determinism NJC > Coliin, if god or anyone else knows about (can see) the future, it means the future is determined. If the future is determined, then we have no free will, only the illusion of it. I believe that there things that are meant to be. There are little synchronicities that happen all the time which to me, are not coincidences but just indications of something even larger that is beyond our grasp, and that we can tune in with the universe, that everything has its place, and the fabric of reality is woven together so intricately, that science and rational thinking do not begin to comprehend it. I believe this because I have experienced it in my life. I believe as well that time is an illusion so that any determinations made about the possibility of knowing the future based on cyclical time are inherently flawed. Free will definately exists- if I were to throw myself off a cliff that would definately change my future. Anything is always possible...I just believe that some ways are more in tune with the universe and some go against the very grain of our reality. Perhaps that is one reason the world is in such a clusterfuck right now. Victor in Decatur ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:33:04 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Night Ride Home This is the one that started it all! My uncle was playing it in the car on the way to Toronto, a few months after it was first released, and I fell in love with it. I subsequently bought all of Joni's albums over an eight year period and now consider myself something of a Joni "completist," although I have no need for every single Joni release in existence - just the fine and dandy basics. - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:35:03 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Free will and determinism NJC Victor, I also experience these synchronicities, and I also believe there's something in them, maybe along the lines you were saying -- that time is non-linear and there is an interconnectedness between things, or maybe even that there are parallel worlds, as some philosophers believe. The question about free will remains though. If you were to throw yourself off a cliff, it would definitely affect your future (but not change it, as you wrote: that implies it is already decided). But the question remains: did you have a choice when you jumped, in the metaphysical sense? There are philosophers, called determinists, who believe that everything we do is determined and that all our choices are illusory -- and that if you jump off the cliff, it will be because it was determined that you should do that from the very beginning of time. And if you don't, it will be because THAT was determined. In this view of the world, you cease to be an actor and become instead a mere instrument of nature, the universe, the will of god, or whatever. I don't believe this, but some do. Sarah At 5:20 PM -0500 01/22/2003, waytoblu wrote: >believe that there things that are meant to be. There are little >synchronicities that happen all the time which to me, are not >coincidences but just indications of something even larger that is >beyond our grasp. . . if I were to throw myself off a cliff that >would definately change my future. Anything is always possible...I >just believe that some ways are more in tune with the universe and >some go against the very grain of our reality. Perhaps that is one >reason the world is in such a clusterfuck right now. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 18:09:57 EST From: Fauchja@aol.com Subject: Re: speaking english NJC that is what my 7th grade English teacher told me. She said that the American spoken around Cleveland was the purest dialect of the language. 7th grade English teachers do not lie. Fauchja ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 15:21:08 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: speaking english NJC > that is what my 7th grade English teacher told me. She said that the > American spoken around Cleveland was the purest dialect of the > language. 7th grade English teachers do not lie. Fauch no, they don't! ; ) Now here's a question: do you say "wash" or "worsh"? (Washington or Worshington?) Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:27:54 +0000 From: gerime Subject: Claire and Amelia OK, so today I found out that yet another jazz vocalist has done a cover of "Blue Motel Room" - Claire Martin, who also has done a most excellent version of "Be Cool". I know someone who has worked with Claire, and of course i asked him to ask her about her Joni love she is a huge Joni fan. So much so that she recently had a baby (about 6 months or so) and she named her Amelia. Gerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 15:36:29 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: mlk cont njc another of mlk's speech's, given in memphis on april 3 1968 the day before he was mudered: http://www.afscme.org/about/kingspch.htm some excerpts: "The nation is sick. Trouble is in the land. Confusion all around... But I know, somehow, that only when it is dark enough, can you see the stars... "Men, for years now, have been talking about war and peace. But now, no longer can they just talk about it. It is no longer a choice between violence and nonviolence in this world; it's nonviolence or nonexistence." "Well, I don't know what will happen now. We've got some difficult days ahead. But it doesn't matter with me now. Because I've been to the mountaintop. And I don't mind. Like anybody, I would like to live a long life. Longevity has its place. But I'm not concerned about that now. I just want to do God's will. And He's allowed me to go up to the mountain. And I've looked over. And I've seen the promised land. I may not get there with you. But I want you to know tonight, that we, as a people, will get to the promised land. And I'm happy, tonight. I'm not worried about anything. I'm not fearing any man. Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord." ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:37:14 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: speaking english NJC ya mean ya hafta sound like drew carey???? wallyK - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Arlene T. Enviado el: Miircoles, 22 de Enero de 2003 06:49 p.m. Para: joni@smoe.org Asunto: Re: speaking english NJC : : Ahem. We need to narrow that a bit. Only midwesterners who grew up : near the Cleveland Ohio area REALLY speak English clearly. (Right, : Janine?) : : Cleveland is where broadcasters used to be sent to learn how to speak : with the quintessential American "non" accent. : : ; ) : : Lori, : from North Canton, OH : ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:40:35 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Free will and determinism NJC sl.m@shaw.ca wrote: > Coliin, if god or anyone else knows about (can see) the future, it > means the future is determined. I don't think so. > If the future is determined, then we have no free will, only the > illusion of it. that would be true if the first part were true. > > Why does time have to be linear? Since we do have free will and people can and do forsee events that have yet to happen I don't think the furture is determined. The future is a result of the past, usually. whatever you choose to do forms your future. Just because some is able to 'see' beyond linear time, does not mean one has no free w ill. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:45:10 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Free will and determinism NJC waytoblu wrote: >>Coliin, if god or anyone else knows about (can see) the future, it >> >> >means the future is determined. If the future is determined, then we >have no free will, only the illusion of it. > >I believe that there things that are meant to be. There are little synchronicities that happen all the time which to me, are not coincidences but just indications of something even larger that is beyond our grasp, > I think I udnertsand what you are saying. yes, life does seem like that. I think stuff does come into our path-but we have to recognize it and act upon it. > > I do think we can be open to influence that comes form outside ourselves, or maybe from within ourselves, from a point we don't generally recognize.Maybe thoughts and feelings come and we either register them and act or we register them and ignore or we don't register them at all. And yes, I think there is far far more to 'life and the universe and everything' than we can know in our present state. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:48:36 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Free will and determinism NJC sl.m@shaw.ca wrote: > Victor, I also experience these synchronicities, and I also believe > there's something in them, maybe along the lines you were saying -- > that time is non-linear and there is an interconnectedness between > things, or maybe even that there are parallel worlds, as some > philosophers believe. > > The question about free will remains though. If you were to throw > yourself off a cliff, it would definitely affect your future (but not > change it, as you wrote: that implies it is already decided). But the > question remains: did you have a choice when you jumped, in the > metaphysical sense? There are philosophers, called determinists, who > believe that everything we do is determined and that all our choices > are illusory -- and that if you jump off the cliff, it will be because > it was determined that you should do that from the very beginning of > time. And if you don't, it will be because THAT was determined. In > this view of the world, you cease to be an actor and become instead a > mere instrument of nature, the universe, the will of god, or whatever. > > I don't believe this, but some do. I don't believe it either. It makes no sense. This way of thinking is thought by many people. I think it is harmful. The logiical conclusion is that people who abuse, murdewr, practise cruelty etc are MEANT to and their victims are meant to be. It means that a child dying of some foul cancer is meant to. It e,mans all the terrible stuff that happens is meant to. And that it is not our responsibilty. That last sentence I imagine is why this belief is so popular. bw colin ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #51 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)