From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #50 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, January 22 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 050 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- re: NJC matters of choice [wuz: Reproductive Rights] [cul heath ] Night Ride Home [Cactustree78@aol.com] Re: Reproductive rights NJC PC [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: reproductive rights (Lori) NJC [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: reproductive rights (Lori) NJC [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: Night Ride Home [Susan Guzzi ] Re: joni lyric for the day/week/month ["Sarah Cartwright" ] Re: joni lyric for the day/week/month ["courtandspark@earthlink.net" ] TNT All-Star Tribute to JM [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: A New Standard? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: A New Standard? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Night Ride Home [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: the death of America NJC [Jerry Notaro ] Re: re the death of America NJC [Catherine McKay ] NJC Reproductive rights NJC ["kasey simpson" ] Re: Night Ride Home [Steve Polifka ] Re: re the death of America NJC [Steve Polifka ] Re: NJC Reproductive rights NJC [colin ] Re: NJC Reproductive rights NJC ["kasey simpson" ] Re: Reproductive rights NJC RC [Steve Polifka ] Re: Judy Collins NJC [Jerry Notaro ] re: Our Times (njc) pc [anne@sandstrom.com] Re: NJC Reproductive rights NJC [colin ] Re: NJC Reproductive rights NJC ["kasey simpson" ] Re: Reproductive Rights NJC ["Bree Mcdonough" ] re: Our Times (njc) pc [Catherine McKay ] Re: NJC Reproductive rights NJC [Steve Polifka ] Suggestions (NJC) [Steve Dulson ] Re: NJC Reproductive rights NJC ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Suggestions (NJC) ["Lori Fye" ] Frank Zappa's / Joni's house [Steve Dulson ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 00:03:57 -0800 From: cul heath Subject: re: NJC matters of choice [wuz: Reproductive Rights] :) Oh climb down climb down he says to me From the middle of unrest They think is light is squandered But he sees a stray in the wilderness And I see how far I've wandered Enter the multitudes In Exxon blue In radiation rose Apathy Now you tell me Who you gonna get to do the dirty work When all the slaves are free? (Who're you gonna get) just returning the white light cul Susan Guzzi wrote: >Hi Cul, > >So nice to hear from another male perpective. Although I do think many of the men on the JMDL are >staying out of this fray out of respect for women. It's amazing to me that so many have been >guilted into softening their opinions on abortion over the years or changed them all together, but >the fact is most people still favor it as an option and a womans choice! > >Thanks for all of your points, but I picked out those I thought were best and had not yet been as >beaten like that proverbial dead horse! LOL! > >Best to you and .... >Peace, >Susan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 02:09:31 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights - NJC Unbelievable. . . Sarah From: vince An abortion is akin to a hysterectomy, it removes (a certain possibility for) a pregnancy. . . ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 02:13:26 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights NJC No, Colin, you are no hypocrite. This is a complex philosophical debate (about what personhood is) and you're responding to that complexity. Your confusion is a sign of sensitivity, not hypocrisy. Sarah mike pritchard wrote: >> And it's always been problematic for the 'left' (speaking in general > terms here) that they have it the other way around. Pro abortion but > anti war and anti capital punishment. Hard to justify for many people, > the 'killing' of a potential 'innocent' life and yet opposed to the > killing of, say proven mass murderers and undoubtedly despotic dictators. Colin wrote: you are right. I hadn't thought of it that way around. I do think that a fetus inside a woman is a different propostion. I also bleiev in mercy killing. See, as I said in a previous post, i am a hypocrite. I am anti killing. Yet pro killing too. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 02:14:38 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Abortion Discussion NJC Think you're probably right, Arlene. Sarah From: "Arlene T." You know, this is a discussion that will go absolutely nowhere. People have their staunch opinions and in my experience no amount of log or otherwise will change the other side's viewpoint. Why don't we just let it go? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 00:20:57 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Reproductive Rights (was: Antiwar groups) - NJC, PC >>I was jobless, using myriad drugs and alcohol like an idiot, I reacted to things based on the experience of my home life (drunk and abusive father, angry mother, both of whom could *snap* at a moment's notice), and my coping abilities were immature at best. So I made the decision that I would not bring another life into this world because I wasn't sure the baby would be healthy, and because I couldn't deal with it.<, lori it is so hard to second guess these things but i have a feeling you made the responsible choice ... this discussion makes me think of some friends who are trying to raise the child of a woman who gave birth while using heavy drugs at the time (i believe she is still using)..the father found out he was a father only when the child was about 2 or maybe 3 years old & a lot of physical & emotional damage had been done by then... to his credit, when he found out he was a father he was able to get custody of the child & has been raising her for about 4 years...(with his wife & her daughter & a daughter they have together- both kids are younger)...however his daughter whose mother (is still) a drug addict has some very severe problems (extreme violence to herself & the other kids) which have greatly endangered the other children in the family...after years of intense therapy & trying meds they are not sure they are capable of raising this child & are searching for a solution outside of sending her to an institution which is what all the professionals recommend...a completely heartbreaking situation... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 00:24:01 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights NJC BREE! As your friend I am going to have to ask you to unwrap that flag from around you AND that Constitution you all claim to know so well. Now do you see that part that mentions separation of church and state? Tsk tsk god is NOT an absolute for everybody, including your godless friend here. And if god exists for you ... than don't have an abortion. It's not by force but by choice. Are you still speaking to me?! :-D Peace, Susan > I have several questions for you: When does God breath life into that soul? > What's your best guess? At the time of conception? First trimester? > Second trimester? Does it not say in the Old testament that God KNEW US in > the womb? A man of the cloth.. how do you reconcile this? IF it's not a > life.. what is it? (sorry..I've asked you more than several questions) > > Bree Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 03:27:16 -0500 From: Cactustree78@aol.com Subject: Night Ride Home Hello all, Ive been listening to NRH non stop lately..Ive always liked Passion Play, Come in From the Cold,and the title track but i never really gave the rest of the album much of a chance..Let me tell you once I did it was all over..The most shocking song on the album for me was Winfall Everything for nothing...Shocking because I really felt like dancing around my apartment(ok i did) whatta kick ass beat...Seriously imagine dancin at your fave club(unless you are into techno) and that song comes on... not very hard to dance to...That song is about her housekeeper right??i remember reading a story about that situation..Anyway just wanted to share my new found love for winfall hope you all are havin a wonderful week... peace love and light your way ****kevin**** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 02:29:48 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Reproductive rights NJC PC I am pro-choice, but with sadness for the lives lost. When we say this is MY body, as opposed to the foetus's -- on what grounds is it MY body? In a very real sense, the foetus assumes power over the body when a pregnancy begins. The question of whose body this is, and ought to be, is complex and hearbreaking, and anyone who's able to take a clear position on it is almost certainly wrong. A pregnancy is a fight between two lives: the mother's and the child's. Bree is right when he says that the foetus is a person (on what grounds would anyone deny them personhood?) -- but they are persons unable to defend themselves. An unwanted pregnancy is a war between two bodies, a fight between two futures -- like all wars, it ends with a losing, dying side. When we kill, we kill, and we shouldn't deny it. The question is: should the losing side have representation? The answer is surely yes. So the foetus and its representatives have a right and perhaps a duty to -- say -- make films showing us what abortion looks like, and what it entails, so that we enter into it knowingly. Not all unwanted babies turn out badly. Not all wanted babies turn out well. Perhaps our desires shouldn't determine who lives and who dies, because we're not gods. This is the rallying cry of the anti-war movement -- who are we to take lives? Yet we do it daily, so long as the lives are those of unwanted children, or other kinds of people who, for whatever reason, can't defend themselves or make themselves heard. Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 02:31:28 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: reproductive rights (Lori) NJC Lori, thank you for sharing your story. That was honest and brave. Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 02:34:42 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: reproductive rights (Lori) NJC Lori, thank you for sharing your story. That was honest and brave. Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 00:55:46 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Night Ride Home How strange Kevin, I had NRH on for the last day or two myself! For whatever reason, I just hadn't played it in some time. I aways like this album, but I too really took notice of Windfall this time around! This is the beauty of Joni, with a catalogue of work at this level, we can keep rediscovering her over and over again. Even though I wouldn't mind some new compositions. I love the title cut, The Only Joy in Town and Passion Play as well. And it is very late, or very early, so I am sure there are more but I must grab 2 or 3 hours of sleep - what's wrong with me?! Peace, Susan - --- Cactustree78@aol.com wrote: > Hello all, > > Ive been listening to NRH non stop lately..Ive always liked Passion Play, Come in From the > Cold,and the title track but i never really gave the rest of the album much of a chance..Let me > tell you once I did it was all over..The most shocking song on the album for me was Winfall > Everything for nothing...Shocking because I really felt like dancing around my apartment(ok i > did) whatta kick ass beat...Seriously imagine dancin at your fave club(unless you are into > techno) and that song comes on... not very hard to dance to...That song is about her housekeeper > right??i remember reading a story about that situation..Anyway just wanted to share my new found > love for winfall hope you all are havin a wonderful week... peace love and light your way > > ****kevin**** Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:45:47 +0000 From: "Sarah Cartwright" Subject: Re: joni lyric for the day/week/month great thread. there are so many, but I think the one that always gets me is from LOTC 'nobody stopped to hear him, though he played so sweet, and high...'. if only everyone did stop once in a while. sarah - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ It's fast, it's easy and it's free! Click here to download MSN Messenger ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:06:45 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: since we *like* fighting over oil..... NJC Lori Fye wrote: >>it's arsehole. An ass is a kind of donkey(or is a donkey). An arse on >>the other hand........ >> >> > >Colin, there you go being all British again! ; ) > >If you said "arsehole" in the States, hardly anyone would know what you >were talking about! > > I know. I didn't realise Americans didn't speak English until my vist there! >Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:35:36 +0000 From: "Tamsin Lucas" Subject: Joni "must have" on Radio 2 This Saturday night, the must have album on Radio 2's critical list is Blue www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/shows/critical_list (they haven't updated the page from last week yet though) You can listen on line at www.bbc.co.uk/radio2 _________________________________________________________________ Worried what your kids see online? Protect them better with MSN 8 http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental&pgmarket=en-gb&XAPID=186&DI=1059 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 04:03:29 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Antiwar groups NJC, PC Kate wrote: > i know this was not meant specifically for me but since i mentioned that > some of marxism resonated with me I've been away from all this discussion for a few days and reading all the latest my head is spinning. I thought someone wanted me to apologize because of people here who are of that ideology, and certainly did not think of you at all in my post. I think we all need a pitcher of martinis and a nice little beach somewhere at this point LOL > i thought i should clarify that i don't > consider myself a marxist by any stretch of the imagination...i resonate > with lots of different ideas that fall under christianity, buddhism, native > american thought, democracy, socialism, activism, pacifism etc etc but don't > feel like any single one of these religions, philosophys, governments, > (whatever) completely encompass all of my beliefs... I feel that my beliefs have also evolved from all of these and other ideas. I can't help but believe that most thinking persons take it all in and process it accordingly. Enlightenment is not found by sitting in one box and pulling the lid closed over the top ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 07:47:24 -0500 From: "courtandspark@earthlink.net" Subject: Re: joni lyric for the day/week/month Could be a threshold or a precipice - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ It's fast, it's easy and it's free! Click here to download MSN Messenger - -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:09:48 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: re the death of America NJC >>a country where the top grossing movie is Kangaroo Jack is under the judgment of the gods. Or should be.<< Maybe it's evidence that there IS no god? mike ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:10:51 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: TNT All-Star Tribute to JM <> And further to Jim's point, it's also available on CD for those of you who like myself abandoned audio cassettes over ten years ago. And thanks to Steve Polifka, I've even got a nifty label I can put on it. Bob NP: The Flaming Lips, "What Is The Light?" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:17:52 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: A New Standard? In a message dated 1/22/2003 12:12:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, jpalis@kssp.upd.edu.ph writes: > Just curious, Bob, but what made you say The Circle Game is > standard > material for Asian women? Sorry Joseph, I forget sometimes that not everyone immerses themselves in the collection of and study of Joni covers! ;~) My comment was made based on the fact that the song has been covered numerous times by Asian female singers. It's almost a sub-genre of the Joni cover realm, much like heavy-metal covers of "This Flight Tonight". From what I can tell, a Chinese singer by the name of Agnes Chan got the ball rolling with her cover in 1971. She's apparantly a big name in China, so several others followed suit, including: Lillian Ho Chan Mei Ling Tokyo's Coolest Combo Jerry Notaro in particular wishes there were more! :~) Bob NP: Flaming Lips, "Waitin' For A Superman" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:26:06 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: A New Standard? Hey there Joseph, and thanks once again for sharing my enthusiasm! I was lucky to have stumbled on to this recording. Most of Claire's work is easily available, but this one for some reason appears only at the Linn Records website. Maybe it hasn't been out long enough to set up distribution, I don't know how any of that stuff works. And the whole lineup looks pretty interesting: Something's Coming Love At Last The Gentleman Is A Dope These Foolish Things It's Raining In My Heart Too Darn Hot Black Coffee Noir Love Is A Necessary Evil When I Fall In Love I Can Let Go Now Four Walls Blue Motel Room What's also interesting (and I hope a typo) is that according to the site BMR checks in at 1:59! Unless Claire is doing a speed metal version, there's no way you can do justice to BMR in under 2 minutes. Plus, the arrangement is by Ian Shaw, no stranger to the Joni cover himself having given us interpretations of This Flight Tonight, Furry Sings The Blues, and Goodbye Pork Pie Hat! I ordered the CD from Linn (of course!) so I'll let you know more when it arrives. Bob NP: Flaming Lips, "The Gash" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:33:30 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Night Ride Home In a message dated 1/22/2003 3:27:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, Cactustree78 writes: > Anyway just wanted to share my new found love for winfall > hope you all are havin a wonderful week... I appreciate your eternal optimism, Kevin...if we ever can clone people, let's order up a couple more Kevin's! :~) As for The Windfall, I love it...yes, it's pretty much directed at the "axis of evil" maid who took a swift kick in the shins besides...my favorite lyric, "you'd eat your young alive, for a Jaguar in the drive"...man, it just doesn't get any more venomous than that. Don't know about dancing to it, but hey, I suppose one can dance to anything. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:55:11 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: the death of America NJC vince wrote: > The numbers are in and the top grossing movie of the last weekend in the > US was: > > Kangaroo Jack. > > We need no further proof that we are a morally bankrupt country. Except that the week before that is was Just Married! Jerry, who just loved About Schmidt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:11:14 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: re the death of America NJC --- mike pritchard wrote: > >>a country where the top grossing movie is Kangaroo > Jack is under the > judgment of the gods. > Or should be.<< > > Maybe it's evidence that there IS no god? > mike This movie was panned even by the 12-year-old who does a kids' movie review in the Sunday Toronto Star. Who the hell is going to see it? ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:28:39 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: NJC Reproductive rights NJC Before I start this, these are only observations, and questions. Vince, you said abortion was not talked about in the bible. What about "Tho Shall Not Kill"? What about the Catholic belief that sex is only for procreation? It goes back to when is life, life. Vince you say only when it is viable outside the womb, that until then it is only tissue. Even at our age we are only tissue. Vince also stated that God knows which ones will be aborted, that is the only thing I disagree with. If God knows this then He has taken free will away. I believe that if a soul is suppose to be here it will be. If one mother aborts, it is sent here again to someone else. As for miscarriages, I believe that all death is for the living to learn from, murder, cancer, whatever. Guz, you said a woman has a right to do what she wants with her body. Yes, if you are talking tattoos, or elective surgeries like hysterectomies. But if I want to take my hand, on my body and use a gun to kill someone else it is wrong. Before you say not the same thing, it goes back to the question when is life a life. That is the difference in these two sides. Lori, you chose to have an abortion, and say you regret it but it was the right thing at that time, no one can contest that. The only questions for RTL is was there other options? Where you given a choice or an easy out? That is the concern for RTL. There are many kids not adopted, this is true, but mostly older kids taken out of abusive homes. Babies, are being sold through newspaper ads. Vince, your strongest point was your daughter. This same thing has happened in Ohio, where a staff member was having sex with the females. Abortion was chosen, and for all the reasons you mentioned. But this hardly makes up the 40mil abortions. As for malformed fetuses being determined and terminated that has the sound of genocide. All imperfect people must be eliminated. Just for the record, I am not siding with pro life, or pro choice. I have four (almost five) nieces. Three have babies out of wedlock, all were 20yrs. old, and all chose to have and keep their babies. Before they were born I would have encouraged abortion, but not now. Only one of the three have the since to raise a child. But I am making a point to stay close in their lives. These three babies belong here, and only because of them have I started leaning to pro life. I'm not trying to disagree with anyone, only ask more questions. Kasey Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:35:38 -0600 From: Steve Polifka Subject: Re: Night Ride Home Jeff and I have this rotation of Joni going on in the car- NRH, C&S, and WTRF, which we both think are her three most consistant albums. Windfall was playing on our trip back from Chicago on Monday and he turned to me and said, "Who else can write lines like that? Cutting but not cruel..." I have always liked Winfall. If Joni ever wrote a song about my sister, that would have been it! ;-) Steve At 08:33 AM 1/22/03 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 1/22/2003 3:27:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, Cactustree78 writes: > >> Anyway just wanted to share my new found love for winfall >> hope you all are havin a wonderful week... > >I appreciate your eternal optimism, Kevin...if we ever can clone people, let's order up a couple more Kevin's! :~) > >As for The Windfall, I love it...yes, it's pretty much directed at the "axis of evil" maid who took a swift kick in the shins besides...my favorite lyric, "you'd eat your young alive, for a Jaguar in the drive"...man, it just doesn't get any more venomous than that. >Don't know about dancing to it, but hey, I suppose one can dance to anything. > >Bob > > Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:37:30 -0600 From: Steve Polifka Subject: Re: re the death of America NJC Maybe it means there is not a SINGLE creative thought left in Hollywood? At 02:09 PM 1/22/03 +0100, you wrote: >>>a country where the top grossing movie is Kangaroo Jack is under the >judgment of the gods. >Or should be.<< > >Maybe it's evidence that there IS no god? >mike > > Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:42:21 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: NJC Reproductive rights NJC > If God knows this then He has taken free will >away. > I don't see the logic in this. Just because 'God knows everything', would not do away with free will. He can see ahead and therefore see what happens. Being able to see the future does not indicate that He controls it. (the above assumes that God exists and that He does know everything) simply put, lets say God has a vcr tape of your life. he FF and sees you buying a house. Just by FF the tape, does mean he made buy the house. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:42:37 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: NJC Reproductive rights NJC > If God knows this then He has taken free will >away. > I don't see the logic in this. Just because 'God knows everything', would not do away with free will. He can see ahead and therefore see what happens. Being able to see the future does not indicate that He controls it. (the above assumes that God exists and that He does know everything) simply put, lets say God has a vcr tape of your life. he FF and sees you buying a house. Just by FF the tape, does NOT mean he made you buy the house. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:51:45 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Re: NJC Reproductive rights NJC Good point my friend, but yes. If we have free will, God knows there are two paths we can walk, i.e. you can buy the house or not. So the vcr tape can show the choices God puts before us but not the out come. Now if a woman becomes pregnant she has two choices, but if God knows she is going to abort, why give her the choice? And yes all of this is based on a belief there is a God. I think that may be why so many RTLers only see one side, God cannot be taken out of the equation. Kasey simply put, lets say God has a vcr tape of your life. he FF and sees you buying a house. Just by FF the tape, does mean he made buy the house.Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:50:13 -0600 From: Steve Polifka Subject: Re: Reproductive rights NJC RC Somewhere in the Bible- 'If something in/on your body offends thee, pluck it out...' I should remember this after all those years in a Lutheran schools.... The planet is over-populated. The people who protest, bitch, and cry and kill over women who want/get abortions have no intentions of raising that child. Seems to me they should put up or shut up. If they feel THAT strongly about it, DO something positive about it. What pisses me off is seeing all these older women on the news sharing their views, or telling me what's going on when I know damn well that they would not raise one of the babies that they claim they believe has a right to life. I would not dream of telling anyone what to do with their body. Male, or female. Steve Who has felt this way for a long, long time... Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:59:34 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: the death of America NJC Lori Fye wrote: > Ignatius J. Reilly lives! My favorite book! And for those of you who are also fans, I strongly recommend Ignatius Rising: The Life of John Kennedy Toole. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:02:14 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Judy Collins NJC BRYAN8847@aol.com wrote: > I know many of you are Judy fans -- here's an update I found today. > Bryan > > Judy Collins to Appear in 'The Exonerated' Going to see her and David Crosby tonight! Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 07:05:08 -0800 (PST) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: re: Our Times (njc) pc Suzanne, I hope your tongue was planted firmly in your cheek when you posted about "Our Times." I know it's easy to be frustrated, but I'm sure you didn't really mean what you wrote. As for the world requiring high I.Q.s to improve, I'd strongly recommend the book "Reverence: Renewing a Forgotten Virtue" by Paul Woodruff. You can read the first few pages online at amazon.com - it gives the gist of his contention that reverence (the ability to be in awe of everything outside our power - outside the context of religion and faith) is what's needed, and is lacking, in today's world. We live in a world where there's an emphasis on justice. ("Is justice just ice?") Paul Woodruff contends (and I agree) that we need both justice AND reverence. With the combination of the two, the answer to any question about whether abortion, capital punishment, even war is "right" leads to an answer of "it depends." It depends on the circumstances. Is the act one of reverence? The book says all this much more eloquently that I can. Even if you read only the first page online, I think you'll find it thought provoking. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 15:05:03 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: NJC Reproductive rights NJC kasey simpson wrote: > Good point my friend, but yes. If we have free will, God knows there > are two paths we can walk, i.e. you can buy the house or not. So the > vcr tape can show the choices God puts before us but not the out > come. I don't follow that. IF God knows everything, then God would see which choice we made. That is not the same as saying He made us. Also, there is usally more than one choice in any goven situation. Why make the assumption it is God that gives us the choices? Life gives us choices. Perhaps God makes us, puts us here, and lets us get on with it, and it is NOT all driected personally by God! The logivcal conslucion to this way of thinking is that God causes everything to happen. Like child abuse, murders, accidents, disease, war etc. > Now if a woman becomes pregnant she has two choices, but > if God knows she is going to abort, why give her the choice? we have free will always. The choice is not 'given' by God. i think you may have misunderstood. What God acn see the CHOICE she made. he idn't give her that choice or force to make that choice. He just sees what she did, of her own volition. Free will is not that simple anyway.(and this is just as applicable to believers as non) Choices can only be made when we are well informed and able to make to make choices. Ignorance of all the choices available, limits our free will, as does emotional disturbance, mental illness, and all sorts of things. Many people neevr come to undertsand that what they think and believe(and as a result, mostly, what they feel) is a choice. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:08:23 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Re: NJC Reproductive rights NJC Colin, I think we are agreeing here. I may not be saying it right, but I do agree with everything you've said. Kasey kasey simpson wrote: > Good point my friend, but yes. If we have free will, God knows there > are two paths we can walk, i.e. you can buy the house or not. So the > vcr tape can show the choices God puts before us but not the out > come. I don't follow that. IF God knows everything, then God would see which choice we made. That is not the same as saying He made us. Also, there is usally more than one choice in any goven situation. Why make the assumption it is God that gives us the choices? Life gives us choices. Perhaps God makes us, puts us here, and lets us get on with it, and it is NOT all driected personally by God! The logivcal conslucion to this way of thinking is that God causes everything to happen. Like child abuse, murders, accidents, disease, war etc. > Now if a woman becomes pregnant she has two choices, but > if God knows she is going to abort, why give her the choice? we have free will always. The choice is not 'given' by God. i think you may have misunderstood. What God acn see the CHOICE she made. he idn't give her that choice or force to make that choice. He just sees what she did, of her own volition. Free will is not that simple anyway.(and this is just as applicable to believers as non) Choices can only be made when we are well informed and able to make to make choices. Ignorance of all the choices available, limits our free will, as does emotional disturbance, mental illness, and all sorts of things. Many people neevr come to undertsand that what they think and believe(and as a result, mostly, what they feel) is a choice. bw colinGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:19:00 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights NJC Guz..while replying to Vince I thought..I should point out I was referencing these questions to a man who is ordained.. a minister of God. So they were asked in that light. Am i still speaking to you? I am! You know i need some more phone lessons. ;-) Geez..do think I'm stupid or what? Bree >BREE! > >As your friend I am going to have to ask you to unwrap that flag from >around you AND that >Constitution you all claim to know so well. Now do you see that part that >mentions separation of >church and state? Tsk tsk god is NOT an absolute for everybody, including >your godless friend >here. > >And if god exists for you ... than don't have an abortion. It's not by >force but by choice. > >Are you still speaking to me?! :-D > >Peace, >Susan > > > I have several questions for you: When does God breath life into that >soul? > > What's your best guess? At the time of conception? First trimester? > > Second trimester? Does it not say in the Old testament that God KNEW US >in > > the womb? A man of the cloth.. how do you reconcile this? IF it's not >a > > life.. what is it? (sorry..I've asked you more than several questions) > > > > Bree >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. >http://mailplus.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 15:10:39 -0000 From: "Lucy Hone" Subject: NJC Lucy's view on Reproductive rights... If its not to late to put in my bit!!! Lori, you are indeed brave to share your experience. Thank you for that. I have to agree that no woman ever chooses lightly, or without regret that an unplanned pregnancy is better terminated early. I do not know any woman that has ever undertaken abortion and not had feelings about it either before or after.. I quote from your letter I was jobless, using myriad drugs and alcohol like an idiot, I reacted to things based on the experience of my home life (drunk and abusive father, angry mother, both of whom could *snap* at a moment's notice), and my coping abilities were immature at best. So I made the decision that I would not bring another life into this world because I wasn't sure the baby would be healthy, and because I couldn't deal with it. Every pregnancy starts with a man and a woman. The circumstances of that conception can be many and varied. Rape and sexual abuse are two such circimstances where a pregnancy is a disaster for the woman (and lets remember that incest/sexual abuse by a relative or un-related person occurs predominantly with under-age girls N.B..GIRLS NOT WOMEN) To find themselves pregnant from an act that is as far removed from "love making" as you can imagine is a double tragedy.... To be forced to have a child that is the result of abuse is a "cruel and unusual punishment". Where genetic problems lead to the certain death of a child it is kinder not to have that child grow from the bunch of cells that it is at 8-12 weeks to a fully developed foetus which will die. To describe something with no sentient brain, no possible viablility if delivered from the womb, no eyes to hear or eyes that could see, nor any lungs to breathe as capable of "screaming in pain" is really pushing the angst a little too far. The higest age group seeking abortion is in the 14 - 18 year age group I am informed........children giving birth to children is not an ideal situation. We can argue that in other countries children become mothers at 12 and onwards and cope. This is true, and where the extended family and cultural heritage prepares girls for this task and they are supported by their relatives. However they give birth in little more than mud huts and the standard of post natal care is minimal. Huge fistulas ( tears between the bladder, anus and vagina caused by birth damage) that leak and create gangrenous ulcers and blood poisoning, often result from young girls giving birth in underdeveloped countries, no matter how culturally prepared their society is to cope with their situation...they then, if they survive are divorced by their husbands for being untouchable and are then ostracised by their communities..... The horrendous state of women's rights to abortion can be seen in Russia where women often have to deliver their (late stage) abortion babies in cubicles and have to clear up after them selves and dispose of the (often still living) child. 26 weeks is considered viable and with enormous amounts of Special Care these children can live...without it they do die...that is inhumane for the child and for the woman... Let's not forget the horror of the Dying Rooms in China where baby girls are bundled together and left to more or less fend for themselves as their lives are not considered important. What is the answer...to abortion? to avoid the need for abortion .... How do we do that? have you got an hour or two? It takes two to make a pregnancy....... but the burden of decision and responsibility on any score falls to the female (of whatever age). I would like to see boys educated properly on their responsibilities and duties to avoid irresponsible, unprotected sex. Participation in gang sex, casual sex, and forced sex is something that is bad... shows they are weak and careless and it does not make them MEN. there should be some paradigm shift to make them think before they "go for it".... Girls also need to have their self esteem raised to understand that saying NO is OK. It is their right. The current and prevailing teen-culture of having as many boys as they can at an early age should be discouraged somehow or if they insist that it is their right (and they are as entitled to argue that point as is anyone) then try to ensure they avoid getting pregnant. Maybe, as money is so important to the youth of today, a No Pregnancy Bounty should be paid to girls and boys who avoid getting into this fix.... Its a thought! We offer them CD's for turning up at school so what can we do to take that lifestyle committment one step further? I would like to see all those who rape and abuse young girls chemically castrated and put away where the world will never see them again. I would like their victims to have a chance to really tell them what they have been put through so that they have no excuse or can claim the girl was "up for it". The same goes for thos who abuse young men too..... (except that young boys do not get pregnant)... the damage done to young boys is terrible leading to long term psychological problems and self harm (in a high proportion of cases anyway). There is not easy answer to this dilemma of abortion. It is not a decision made lightly and neither should those who support it, nor those who are against it take the moral high ground. Every case is individual but maybe for the few women who seem to use termination as their preferred contraception, they should be sterilised.. The ones who are faced with the only possible solution to their turmoil should not be condemned, nor made to feel guilty for taking a decision that ultimately avoids one more unwanted child, and the consequences that that can bring. Apologies for getting on my high horse about this but this is never a straight forward subject... On a lighter note I had to go to a school today to give a talk about Victorian England and street children and at the end one of the children asked me.. "Lucy, did you like living in the Victorians Ages or do you like it better in the Modern World?"....... Ah sweet ....So I made my way to the time machine and here I am ........... Have a good day Lucy NP "Help me" ....... very apt........ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 07:23:16 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: NJC Reproductive rights NJC Kasey, you do pose some interesting questions. Thank you for posing them in a non-confrontational way. > Lori, you chose to have an abortion, and say you regret it but it was > the right thing at that time, no one can contest that. The only > questions for RTL is was there other options? Where you given a > choice or an easy out? Of course there were other options, and yes, since I was working with a Planned Parenthood clinic, I was advised of all the possible choices. Choosing to terminate was certainly easier in many respects: financially, physically, probably emotionally as well. I won't dispute that. > There are many kids not adopted, this is true, but mostly older kids > taken out of abusive homes. Which is exactly the point I tried to make in my "confessional" post. I know who I was at the time, and I know that if I had tried to raise my child, there was a HUGE possibility that I would have become an abusive parent. I hate admitting that, but it's true. And due to all the drugs (including LSD) and drinking I was doing, the developmental health of the fetus was questionable at best. The discussion of genocide notwithstanding, I could not in good conscience bring that child into the world. Maybe I'm narrow-minded and selfish, but there are so many miserable lives already, and I believe in quality of life, not just life itself. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:27:38 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: re: Our Times (njc) pc --- anne@sandstrom.com wrote: As for the world requiring high > I.Q.s to improve, I'd strongly recommend the book > "Reverence: Renewing a Forgotten Virtue" by Paul > Woodruff. You can read the first few pages online at > amazon.com - it gives the gist of his contention > that > reverence (the ability to be in awe of everything > outside our power - outside the context of religion > and > faith) is what's needed, and is lacking, in today's > world. > > We live in a world where there's an emphasis on > justice. ("Is justice just ice?") Paul Woodruff > contends (and I agree) that we need both justice AND > reverence. With the combination of the two, the > answer > to any question about whether abortion, capital > punishment, even war is "right" leads to an answer > of > "it depends." It depends on the circumstances. Is > the > act one of reverence? Anne, this sounds like the book for me. The answer to just about any question anyone ever asks me is usually, "It depends" (even what am I going to wear today? or what to have for dinner. This is an often unfortunate trait I inherited from my Dad.) Which is why I've been avoiding like the plague and deleting without reading just about any e-mail with bugaboo words like 'reproductive rights' (what's the point of touching that one with a 20-foot pole? you are absolutely NOT going to convince people about what's right and what's wrong on this, so why try?), 'war', 'peace', 'Iraq', and you know there may be more. I'm heading to Amazon to read a page or two, then to my library site to put a hold on this one. Thanks for the suggestion. Even tho' it wasn't aimed at me, like any self-respecting black crow flying, I'm always diving down to pick on something shiny. (Doesn't that Joni Mitchell just drive you nuts?) I also agree that that IQ alone doesn't guarantee any improvement in the world order, new or old - there are many high-IQ types in any level of government or decision-making working on bigger, better bombs and ways of killing the enemy, and not on feeding the hungry masses or improving literacy or eliminating poverty and disease or any number of what I'm sure we'd all agree are evils. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:28:50 -0600 From: Steve Polifka Subject: Re: NJC Reproductive rights NJC At 07:23 AM 1/22/03 -0800, you wrote: > >Maybe I'm narrow-minded and selfish, but there are so many miserable >lives already, and I believe in quality of life, not just life itself. > >Lori > Lori, This is absolutely the bottom line for me. We (as a society) have these gradiose thoughts of how things should be, but don't seem to be willing to deal with the consequences effectively. Too much tragedy on the planet already. So I need to tirade once more and get it All out. About that Supreme Court... Aren't they all men? Are they going to adopt any of the children that they will try to force un-wanting mothers to have? What do they know about being pregnant and giving birth? Do they even raise thier own kids right??? (Excuse me for being ignorant...) Steve Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:40:24 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: A New Standard? In a message dated 1/21/2003 9:39:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, messling@enter.net writes: > What exactly makes a song a "standard?" Just sheer > repetition? Good question, Deb...I have no pat answers but some thoughts. First I would say that "Moon At The Window" has the potential to become a standard. In the past year or so a couple of versions have been done. Repetition is certainly a factor...look at the numbers of times that the Rodgers/Hart, Gershwin, Bacharach, Hoagy Carmichael songbooks have been raided. It would be silly to propose that songs like "Stardust", "Summertime", "My Funny Valentine" are NOT standards, solely based on the NUMBER of times they've been recorded. So what number makes a song a standard, I dunno. I would say another factor would be the interpretation of the song in several genres; pop, jazz, etc. This definition may need to be revised in the post-rock era. Anyway, it's interesting to think about. Blue Motel Room has just always SOUNDED like a standard to me...when I had the privilege of talking to Joni, I talked to her about this very subject. She responded by saying that BMR had some archaic language (the America vs. Russia references), and I responded by saying that THAT can sometimes be a characteristics of a standard, the indication that the song was written in another time and has stood the test of time. For instance, how many standards use the word "gay" in context of happiness as opposed to context of sexuality? Bob NP: Fleetwood Mac, "Monday Morning" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 07:48:02 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: NJC Reproductive rights NJC > I think that may be why so many RTLers only see one side, God cannot > be taken out of the equation. There are a number of people on this list (and elsewhere) who I would consider to be REAL Christians who are pro-choice. Surely they don't take God out of the equation. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 07:52:26 -0800 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Suggestions (NJC) colin wrote: >Quite why they feel >they have the right to make such suggestions is beyond me. But you say we can discuss anything - why can't we make suggestions? As long as we're not ordering people to do anything (who would listen anyway?) I think we have the "right" to make whatever suggestions we choose, and I resent you telling me we don't. - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 07:59:08 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: NJC Reproductive rights NJC > About that Supreme Court... > > Aren't they all men? Steve honey, of the nine Justices, there are two women: Sandra Day O'Connor and Ruth Bader Ginsberg. Ginsberg tends to be politically liberal; O'Connor is a often a "swing" vote. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:00:23 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Suggestions (NJC) > I think we have the "right" to make whatever suggestions we choose, > and I resent you telling me we don't. Steve, you're right. Suggest away ... : ) Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:12:19 -0800 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Frank Zappa's / Joni's house Dan wrote: >It looks like there are two other lots (or are they combined); >one (or all of it) has to have been Joni's. Does she still live there? No, she has since moved to swanker quarters. :) Her old house would be along Lookout Mountain Ave either at the extreme right of the map, or one just off that edge of the map. I will get this pinned down in time for the LA Joni tour. :) The no-longer-there Zappa house was on the corner of the lot at Lookout and Laurel. - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #50 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)