From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #48 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, January 22 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 048 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: Reproductive Rights (was: Antiwar groups) - NJC, PC ["Jerry Notaro" <] Re: Reproductive Rights (was: Antiwar groups) - NJC, PC ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Reproductive Rights NJC ["Lori Fye" ] ironic isn't it njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Reproductive Rights - NJC PC [Mags N Brei ] Re: Play that Weird Minor Chord [Dan Olson ] Re: Play that Weird Minor Chord [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Play that Weird Minor Chord ["chuty001" ] RE: Peace njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: joni lyric for the day/week/month ["Lori Fye" ] since we *like* fighting over oil..... NJC ["Cynthia Vickery" ] Re: since we *like* fighting over oil..... NJC ["Lori Fye" ] Abortion Discussion ["Arlene T." ] Re: Reproductive Rights (was: Antiwar groups) - NJC, PC ["RSM" ] Re: Reproductive Rights (was: Antiwar groups) - NJC, PC ["Lori Fye" ] Re: since we *like* fighting over oil..... NJC ["chuty001" ] the death of America NJC [vince ] Re: since we *like* fighting over oil..... NJC ["Lori Fye" ] NJC Re: Frank Zappa's house (minimal Joni content) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Antiwar groups NJC, PC ["Kate Bennett" ] Good Fisk article NJC PC [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: A New Standard? [Deb Messling ] Judy Collins NJC [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #45 -- Dancing Clown [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #46 -- new Kings and Ghandis [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #22 [StDoherty@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #45 -- Dancing Clown [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Our Times ["Suzanne MarcAurele" ] Re: Reproductive Rights NJC ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: A New Standard? [] Re: Play that Weird Minor Chord, njc now, short ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\] TNT All-Star Tribute to Joni Mitchell, njc ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:10:52 -0500 From: "Jerry Notaro" Subject: RE: Reproductive Rights (was: Antiwar groups) - NJC, PC - -----Original Message----- Hi Cindy... I understand this..I do not want to see any woman that would find herself in this situation and find it necessary to resort to coat hangers and the like. I love women..as you know! But I know two people right now who would love to have a child and can not. Multiply this by the thousands. Adoption..not abortion! And yet it is the very same anti-choice people who are against gays and lesbians having the right to adopt, right here in Florida. And at least you are honest enough and not use euphemisms for the baby while still in the womb. ......when you wrote.."I'd rather not kill two people" Yes...the fetus is a person... That is your opinion. Not a legal definition. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 12:29:13 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights (was: Antiwar groups) - NJC, PC > How many of us were wanted and planned? I know I wasn't... Nor was I. > The point is Lori..we don't know how these lives would have turned > out. And who are you to say or anybody to prognosticate and decide > their lives would have been fucked up...not worth living? As I wrote previously, "I am one." I would've been the mom. Moms, and potential moms, have to prognosticate to some extent, and they have to make difficult decisions. When I was 24 I became pregnant. It was not planned. Up until that time I'd always believed and said that, should I become pregnant, I would keep and raise my child. However, I added up what was going on with me at the time: I was jobless, using myriad drugs and alcohol like an idiot, I reacted to things based on the experience of my home life (drunk and abusive father, angry mother, both of whom could *snap* at a moment's notice), and my coping abilities were immature at best. So I made the decision that I would not bring another life into this world because I wasn't sure the baby would be healthy, and because I couldn't deal with it. Maybe that was a cop-out? Otoh, when I was 18 I *thought* I might be pregnant (I turned out not to be), and my own mother suggested that her medical insurance pay for an abortion, because she did not want to see me "screw up" my life at that young age. I very often regret my decision, but it was the right one. I'm thankful that the procedure, though emotionally and physically painful, was medically safe. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 20:44:45 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights (was: Antiwar groups) - NJC, PC >I very often regret my decision, but it was the right one. I'm >thankful that the procedure, though emotionally and physically painful, >was medically safe. > > I am astounded that anyone would think that a woman having an abortion does so with no thought or feeling. Thank you for sharing this with us Lori. It was a brave thing to do. bw colin >Lori ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 22:21:11 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights NJC Colin wrote >>I am amazed at the amount of people who are anti abortion but pro capital punishment and pro war.<< And it's always been problematic for the 'left' (speaking in general terms here) that they have it the other way around. Pro abortion but anti war and anti capital punishment. Hard to justify for many people, the 'killing' of a potential 'innocent' life and yet opposed to the killing of, say proven mass murderers and undoubtedly despotic dictators. Tough call to make. mike in bcn NP JoAnne Brackeen. Aguas de Marco. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 13:35:05 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights NJC Mike in Barcelona wrote: > And it's always been problematic for the 'left' (speaking in general > terms here) that they have it the other way around. Pro abortion but > anti war and anti capital punishment. Speaking in specific terms, I am a registered and voting Democrat who is pro-choice, pro-capital punishment, and who supports justified defensive (which usually does not include "pre-emptive") military action. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 13:45:02 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: ironic isn't it njc (simon, thank you for posting the words of mlk...) some quotes from yesterday: George W. Bush- "It is fitting that we honor Martin Luther King in a church, because...I believe...that the power of his words, the clarity of his vision, the courage of his leadership occurred because he put his faith in the Almighty" Coretta Scott King- "We commemorate Martin Luther King Jr. as a great champion of peace who warned us that war was a poor chisel for carving out a peaceful tomorrow,'' King said. ``We must pursue peaceful ends through peaceful means." ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:08:54 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights - NJC PC SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: <<> <<*Should the government dictate to a woman what she can & can't do with her own body, or should the woman have a choice?*>> <<>> I agree with your sentiments Bob...and I also agree with Mike in that this *is* a very difficult choice. And I want it to be *my* choice because, as Susan says, it is *my* body. I believe that a woman takes the decision making toward choosing either abortion or adoption very seriously. It is not an easy, clear "choice" to make. Abortion is not easy, neither is the other "choice", surrendering a child for adoption. As Lori said, abortion hurts on many levels for many, many years, despite the fact that it may have been the right choice for her and the many other women who choose to do so. while his song has nothing to do with the issues we are discussing...I find this this line from Dan Fogelberg npimh: "It's never easy and it's never clear" Mags, keeping the PC label up there in the subject line because the personal is political. You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:14:49 -0700 From: Dan Olson Subject: Re: Play that Weird Minor Chord Thanks for correcting me (and strengthening my argument). Imagine how frustrating it must have been (for Wayne and Joni) to be constrained by contracts that limited Wayne's playing time on Joni's CD's (I seem to recall that on TTT, for example, he was limited to something like 3 tracks). And the reason that he wasn't on the Shadows and Light tour, was because Weather Report's label wouldn't allow two Weather Report players (Wayne and Jaco) to appear together in a non-WR performance. At 08:08 AM 1/21/2003 -0500, SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 1/20/2003 7:55:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, >bass@flatironsjazz.com writes: > > > If I'm not mistaken, Wayne > > Shorter has played with Joni coninuously since '78 (on > > EVERY album since > > DJRD with possible exception of CMinRS). > >Oh he's definitely on CMIARS...check out "A Bird That Whistles". > >The only post DJRD release he's not on is Shadows & Light. > >Joni has said in interviews that she would not consider doing a project >without Wayne. > >Bob > >NP: Eels, "My Beloved Monster And Me" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:17:00 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Play that Weird Minor Chord In a message dated 1/21/2003 5:14:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, bass@flatironsjazz.com writes: > And the reason that he wasn't on the Shadows and Light tour, was > because Weather Report's label wouldn't allow two Weather > Report players > (Wayne and Jaco) to appear together in a non-WR performance. Wow, I never knew that...thanks for the trivia Dan! And I'm glad they had that in the contract because I like Brecker's plating better anyway. I think maybe I'm in the minority about that...I wish Shorter would play more tenor, that sound is just more pleasing to me than the soprano sax that he seems to favor. Bob, having a sax fantasy! :~) NP: The Flaming Lips, "The Spark That Bled" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:29:42 -0500 From: "chuty001" Subject: Re: Play that Weird Minor Chord - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Dan Olson" ; Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 5:17 PM Subject: Re: Play that Weird Minor Chord > In a message dated 1/21/2003 5:14:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, bass@flatironsjazz.com writes: > > > And the reason that he wasn't on the Shadows and Light tour, was > > because Weather Report's label wouldn't allow two Weather > > Report players > > (Wayne and Jaco) to appear together in a non-WR performance. > > Wow, I never knew that...thanks for the trivia Dan! And I'm glad they had that in the contract because I like Brecker's plating better anyway. I think maybe I'm in the minority about that... We're in the minority I prefer Brecker as well Chuck ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:29:58 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Peace njc "but I also feel hope giving way on other fronts. Kate, I do love this excerpt, thanks for reposting it." susan, are you a member of moveon? they provide you with ways to be active & have hopeful news in addition to the less hopeful stuff...i highly recommend receiving their newsletter, go to http://www.moveon.org/ to sign up & read what they are up to ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:35:33 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: joni lyric for the day/week/month This one has been in my head almost daily for a few years: "Let me speak let me spit out my bitterness Born of grief and nights without sleep and festering flesh Do you have eyes? Can you see like mankind sees?" Lori ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:38:32 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights - NJC Lori wrote: >I very often regret my decision, but it was the right one. I'm >thankful that the procedure, though emotionally and physically painful, >was medically safe. > Lori, thank you for sharing, Once a very long time ago when I was early in seminary I had an different perspective than I have now. And Mike, it was one of a supposed consistency in being anti-capital punishment, a pacifist, and thus, anti choice. But then, as they say, life happened. To be a pastor (actually, at the time, a vicar) and all that that implies, sitting looking at another human being and being expected to give counsel as if from God, and realize that my little supposed theoretical consistencies were bullshit in the face of the realities of life... there was no way, as a called and ordained minister of Christ, that I could place theory over reality and have any integrity left. The circumstances can be so varied - Mike, there is no inconsistency in opposing war and opposing the death penalty and supporting a woman who, for reasons that are between her and her God, if she has one, chooses a medical procedure that may be the most life affirming choice possible in that situation. A developing fetus is not life. It is still a mass of tissue. There are so many reasons that an abortion would be life affirming in certain situations. Biology supplies us with abortions all the time. They are called miscarriages. Those are always sad events, but an abortion, like a miscarriage, is not death, it is a part of life, and that is what separates it from war and capital punishment. An abortion is akin to a hysterectomy, it removes (a certain possibility for) a pregnancy but if medically sound and advisable, who would say no? Besides that, as a minister of the Church, I find the absolute silence of the Scriptures on abortion to be an answer in itself. There are times that an abortion is the most life affirming, the best decision a woman can make in her real life circumstances. Are there people who have abortions for the sake of convenience. Yes, but in real life, not very often. Most women who seek this procedure are like Lori - people who reflect very intentionally on the seriousness of the decision that they make. And I have worked in foster care, I am deeply aware of the numbers of severely damaged children out there, let alone the "un adoptables" because the they are not white, not infants, not un-handicapped. If you ask for the catalogue of children available for adoption in Michigan - available at any FIA agency for those in Michigan - you get a catalogue produced monthly the size of a Sears catalogue. Every time I see some Right to Lifer going on and on and on about their position, I really Want to beat them for their total hypocrisy, for there are so many children in need, so many children... I will never believe that RTL is anything more than hypocrites until they start doing something for the children who are already here, and suffering deeply. (And ever notice that the overwhelming number of RTLers are opposed to paying tax dollars for the support of the right to a life of the children already here?) There is no theoretical morality. There is only real life. There is only reality. And what we believe had better be in accord with reality, not with some abstract concept of consistency which does not exist in reality. A couple of comments: Yes, Susan, isn't it amazing that the sex abusers and apologists for child molesters and those who covered up child molestation and sexual abuse - such as Cardinal Law - have been most strident about telling you what to do with your body? I was a planned child. I was very fortunate. I never take a position in the abstract. I back up with my life what I say. I support choice and I support adoption. My two children were adopted by me. And my younger child, who I adopted when he was 2, always went with me to Lansing (our state capital) when I went to lobby for choice and for increased money for programs for families and children. My ministry is not for me to tell others what to do. It is to enable people to make their own decisions with a clear conscience before God in the realities of their lives. One of my favorite pictures is me holding a child, who I baptized, who may well, not as a person but as a fetus, have been aborted had the fetal testing had different results. It was a very real possibility that if that pregnancy had come to term, it would have killed his 44 tear old mother and left 4 children without a mother. There was no question about what the moral choice was there had the tests turned out differently. But in this case, the in utero tests came back that mom would not die if the pregnancy proceeded and it did. Had the tests shown the threat to mom's life that was feared, given the choice between life of the mother and 4 children being motherless and aborting tissue in fetal development that was not yet a person vs the opposite - I told Mom that I would drive her to the hospital and hold her hand during the procedure, if necessary. Lori, God bless you for making the right decision at the time you had to make it. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:37:19 -0600 From: "Cynthia Vickery" Subject: since we *like* fighting over oil..... NJC ... here's another way we can all become more oil-dependent, and save a buck at tax time, to boot!! WOOOHOOOOOO!!!!!!! http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/usatoday/20030121/bs_usatoday/4795095 i guess it's a good thing we paved paradise - since all the cars are so freakin' big, we need the room! cindy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:46:18 -0800 From: cul heath Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights (NJC) Susan Guzzi wrote: Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:56:56 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi I am so tired of morals and ethics being flashed about and influencing what goes on in a woman's body the past 15 or 20 years! It goes right back to our early battle cries; My Body My Choice, It's a woman's right to choose, etc. Anything that is living off of my body, or a sister's is COMPLETELY in her jurisdiction. We used to say things like this back then, but somehow we've let ourselves be shamed by anti-abortionists, the right wing, religious leaders, the media and others. But I wonder why those same people are such supporters of the death penalty! 100%!!! I couldn't agree more. I ask: when will we stop considering women (and children alike) as property or commodities? It just amazes me that some men still think that choice to abort a pregnancy is any of their business or that we even have the capacity to appreciate the depths of personal circumspection such a decision inherently evokes in the woman. If men claim to desire freedom for women then it behooves us to trust their ability to make such decisions without having to consider the pandering of the patriarchal concerns for control and ownership that pervade most western cultures as a given. And to my mind, as a subset of that proposition, women as a group should know better than to assume they can fully appreciate the circumstances which might influence the individual woman's choice to abort a pregnancy or not. Nothing is more precious than choice. Lose respect for that and you imprison everyone, especially yourself. cul ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:50:40 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: since we *like* fighting over oil..... NJC Cindy wrote: > i guess it's a good thing we paved paradise - since all the cars > are so freakin' big, we need the room! In a bit of synchronicity, my brother just a few minutes ago told me about this article (he reads USA Today, everyday). Sorry, but I have to say it: Bush is an asshole. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 22:51:20 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights NJC mike pritchard wrote: > Colin wrote > >>>I am amazed at the amount of people who are anti abortion but pro > capital punishment and pro war.<< > > > > And it's always been problematic for the 'left' (speaking in general > terms here) that they have it the other way around. Pro abortion but > anti war and anti capital punishment. Hard to justify for many people, > the 'killing' of a potential 'innocent' life and yet opposed to the > killing of, say proven mass murderers and undoubtedly despotic dictators. > > Tough call to make. > you are right. I hadn't thought of it that way around. I do think that a fetus inside a woman is a different propostion. I also bleiev in mercy killing. See, as I said in a previous post, i am a hypocrite. I am anti killing. Yet pro killing too. > mike in bcn > > NP JoAnne Brackeen. Aguas de Marco. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 18:01:35 -0500 From: "Arlene T." Subject: Abortion Discussion You know, this is a discussion that will go absolutely nowhere. People have their staunch opinions and in my experience no amount of log or otherwise will change the other side's viewpoint. Why don't we just let it go? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:06:27 -0800 From: "RSM" Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights (was: Antiwar groups) - NJC, PC First politics, then religion, now . . . abortion!! Enough to drive one to Joni only. Abortion is one of the more devisive and highly charged issues. I can't see much purpose to debating it here. My opinion, there is no supportable mid-ground for resolution of this debate. Either you respect the choice of the woman, or you reject that choice altogether. Viability is a slippery slope for the Pro-Choice; abortion for cause (rape/incest) is the same for Pro-Life. I am pro-choice but I am heartbroken about the reality of that choice (particularly after becoming a parent). I respect your decision to the contrary. But both sides screaming "KILLER" across the net is not very enlightening. Ron L.A. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:19:03 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Abortion Discussion - NJC > You know, this is a discussion that will go absolutely nowhere. > People have their staunch opinions and in my experience no amount of > log or otherwise will change the other side's viewpoint. > > Why don't we just let it go? Arlene, I hope you've noticed that - especially considering the topic - this discussion has so far been generally respectful and cordial. Perhaps everyone's viewpoint is set in stone, perhaps not. However, as long as it does not erupt into a "flame war" and as long as we continue to use the NJC tag, I don't see harm in continuing the discussion. It's like any of a number of other threads, including the recent "just war" discussion: most folks' minds are already made up. But you never know ... *something* might spark *someone* to reconsider their position, one way or the other. Lori, a personal believer in "coming out" because doing so puts a face on what is otherwise just a faceless argument ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:21:20 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights (was: Antiwar groups) - NJC, PC > But both sides screaming "KILLER" across the net is not very > enlightening. Was someone doing that? I must have missed it. Lori, also a believer in the usefulness of the "Delete" key ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:28:16 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Volunteer 'Human Shields' to Head for Iraq - NJC Wow. http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=2081908 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 18:48:59 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: A New Standard? OK, so today I found out that yet another jazz vocalist has done a cover of "Blue Motel Room" - Claire Martin, who also has done a most excellent version of "Be Cool". So that makes 4 covers of BMR that were released in 2002. Not that it's going to overtake McCartney's "Yesterday" at any moment, but I wonder if it's slowly becoming a new "standard"? It certainly deserves to be! And is it the most deserving song of Joni's to become her next standard? In my opinion, these already are: Both Sides Now Big Yellow Taxi Woodstock Chelsea Morning Wondering what y'all think? Note: those who gripe about NJC threads maybe want to contribute to this one instead of complaining, or you know, start a Joni thread one of your own! :~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:51:35 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Dubbed Placid, King's Militant Voice Is Revealed NJC simon posted that Maynard Eaton wrote >>That personification fails to recognize how this charismatic leader emerged as such a threat to America's economic interests he had to be eliminated.<< anyone interested in reading more about the fbi's efforts to discredit (to put it mildly) king before & after his death might want to read the following: The Dangers of Domestic Spying by Federal Law Enforcement: A Case Study of FBI Surveillance of Dr. Martin Luther King http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=10610&c=207#FileAttach ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 23:53:34 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Abortion Discussion NJC The NJC was sorted out a long time ago. The list was split in too to accommodate those who didn't want the NJC discussions. that was a good idea then and still is. Yet people still think it is okay to tell the rest of us what we should and should not discuss. Quite why they feel they have the right to make such suggestions is beyond me. There is a thing called a delete key for discussions that are not to people's taste. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 18:56:19 -0500 From: "chuty001" Subject: Re: since we *like* fighting over oil..... NJC > Sorry, but I have to say it: Bush is an asshole. > > Lori > Lori you are so kind. An Asshole is a very useful thing that serves a few very good and nessesary porpose. My self I think he's closer to toxic sledge. Harmful by nature and very dangerous to most living things. Kind of like the Bay city rollers in the 70s.:-) Chuck ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 23:58:18 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: since we *like* fighting over oil..... NJC chuty001 wrote: >>Sorry, but I have to say it: Bush is an asshole. >> >>Lori >> >> >> > >Lori you are so kind. An Asshole > it's arsehole. An ass is a kind of donkey(or is a donkey). An arse on the other hand........ to say someone 'is an ass' is to call them a donkey(stupid and stubborn), it does not equate with calling them an arse, which is otherwise known as a bottom, or derrier or....... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:59:12 -0800 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Frank Zappa's house (minimal Joni content) Check out: http://www.laurelcanyon.net/history.html - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 00:00:46 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Volunteer 'Human Shields' to Head for Iraq - NJC wow again. whatever one might feel about their stance, they are certainly putting their money where their mouths are, so to speak. I'd never have the courage to do as they are doing. Lori Fye wrote: >Wow. > >http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=2081908 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:03:45 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: A New Standard? Bob wrote, of "Blue Motel Room": > And is it the most deserving song of Joni's to become her next > standard? Could be; it's a great song! Other deserving songs that come to my mind: Be Cool That Song About The Midway The Circle Game (already kind of a "campfire standard") Help Me Two Grey Rooms And you know there may be more ... ; ) Lori ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:07:57 -0500 From: vince Subject: the death of America NJC The numbers are in and the top grossing movie of the last weekend in the US was: Kangaroo Jack. We need no further proof that we are a morally bankrupt country. I am ashamed that I bought two tickets to that cinematic atrocity and contributed to the destruction of this nation that I love. But Gage made me do it... a country where the top grossing movie is Kangaroo Jack is under the judgment of the gods. Or should be. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:08:14 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: since we *like* fighting over oil..... NJC > it's arsehole. An ass is a kind of donkey(or is a donkey). An arse on > the other hand........ Colin, there you go being all British again! ; ) If you said "arsehole" in the States, hardly anyone would know what you were talking about! Lori ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:09:11 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: A New Standard? In a message dated 1/21/03 6:49:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, SCJoniGuy@aol.com writes: > And is it the most deserving song of Joni's to become her next standard? In > my opinion, these already are: > > Both Sides Now > Big Yellow Taxi > Woodstock > Chelsea Morning > > I think Blue Motel Room is very deserving of being a standard. I would think ACOY and River should be thrown in the group too. You're king of covers, Bob, so you should know more than anyone :~) Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:12:48 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: A New Standard? In a message dated 1/21/2003 7:09:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, FMY FL writes: > You're king of covers, Bob, so you should know more than anyone :~) > You're right, Jimmy...I would add River (now a Christmas standard which I still find sorta weird) and ACOY to the list. And Lori, I forgot about Circle Game...it definitely is Standard material, certainly among Asian women anyway! :~) Bob NP: Patti Witten, "admit it" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:13:10 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: the death of America NJC > I am ashamed that I bought two tickets to that cinematic atrocity and > contributed to the destruction of this nation that I love. Ignatius J. Reilly lives! : ) (http://ez2www.com/go.php3?site=book&go=0802130208) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:48:56 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: Frank Zappa's house (minimal Joni content) Hey Steve, go ahead and buy that house, it can become the JMDL retirement home we all dream of! :~) Hell, I'll even chip in a buck. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:56:37 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Antiwar groups NJC, PC kakki >>I am sorry for offending any Marxists/Communists here on the list by speaking of ANSWER's idealogy.<< i know this was not meant specifically for me but since i mentioned that some of marxism resonated with me i thought i should clarify that i don't consider myself a marxist by any stretch of the imagination...i resonate with lots of different ideas that fall under christianity, buddhism, native american thought, democracy, socialism, activism, pacifism etc etc but don't feel like any single one of these religions, philosophys, governments, (whatever) completely encompass all of my beliefs... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:19:14 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Good Fisk article NJC PC Mike and anyone else interested, here's a link for a good Robert Fisk article on the network correspondents and others who will be covering the war. Sarah http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/media/story.jsp?story=371412 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 21:39:44 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: A New Standard? What exactly makes a song a "standard?" Just sheer repetition? So which Joni songs deserve repetition? All of them! (OK, maybe not Dancing Clown). In terms of songs which are excellent musically and lyrically and lend themselves to credible covers by others, I can think of Flat Tires (wow do I like the new version), Moon at the Window, Shadows and Light, Carey. At 06:48 PM 1/21/03 -0500, you wrote: >And is it the most deserving song of Joni's to become her next standard? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.443 / Virus Database: 248 - Release Date: 1/10/03 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 21:45:47 EST From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Judy Collins NJC I know many of you are Judy fans -- here's an update I found today. Bryan Judy Collins to Appear in 'The Exonerated' NEW YORK, Jan. 21 /PRNewswire/ -- On January 28-February 2, 2003, Judy Collins will appear in Bob Balaban's production of The Exonerated, an important new play that explores the lives, in their own words, of men and women convicted of murder, sent to death row, and later acquitted, at the Bleecker Theater in New York City. Performing for her second time in a New York City stage production (the first, in Peer Gynt with the New York Shakespeare Production in Central Park with Stacy Keach in 1969,) Ms. Collins will take over the part of Sunny Jacobs, a role previously played by Jill Clayburgh, Mia Farrow and Amanda Plummer, among others. Judy feels privileged to be a part of this amazing, moving and important work. The Exonerated Bleecker Theater 45 Bleecker Street, New York city January 28-February 2 Tues-Fri at 8pm Sat at 5pm & 9pm Sun at 3pm & 7pm Phone number for tickets-212-253-9983 April 2003 brings the release of the upcoming Judy Collins Wildflower Festival DVD & CD featuring guest artists Arlo Guthrie, Tom Rush and Eric Andersen. This extraordinary concert was filmed at the famed Humphrey's By the Bay in San Diego, CA. The concert was the culmination of a 25 city national tour. Now in its third season, The Judy Collins Wildflower Festival will once again be touring this summer with new and old friends, representing the best of American and traditional music. The Judy Collins at Wolf Trap DVD will be available in stores on February 15th. Her Academy Award nominated documentary film, Antonia, A Portrait of the Woman, will also be released in DVD format later in March. And her Christmas Special, Judy Collins Christmas at the Biltmore DVD will be released in time for the holidays in early October. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 22:05:29 EST From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #45 -- Dancing Clown In a message dated 1/20/2003 8:09:31 PM Pacific Standard Time, les@jmdl.com writes: > Ray's Dad's Cadillac - a ROCK song? Not to these ears. Dancing Clown is just > a dreadful song, period. You couldn't dress it up in anything and get away > with it, unless it was some type of burial garment. Lead Balloon is only > slightly better. I would firstly point to Raised On Robbery as Joni showing > that she can rock in the classic 12-bar style. Wild Things Run Fast (not > just the title track but many on the record) would be submitted as further > proof, not to mention her 1983 tour which re-framed several of her earlier > songs in a stronger more rocking vein. Of course given her vocal strength > (or lack thereof) at present I would submit that her rocking days are > behind her, and I don't mean that in any sort of derogatory way. > Geez....I've always liked the much-criticized Dancing Clown (it's no Help Me or Amelia, but whatever...). Perhaps I am alone in my affection for the song... Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 22:24:19 EST From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #46 -- new Kings and Ghandis As a few of us discussed off list today, the saddest part is in todays media and with our ever decreasing personal freedom, what chance is there that greatness or leadership such as Dr. King's, could ever be again. Who could gather the masses that he or a Ghandi did? How would someone of this stature be noticed and excepted? I think this rather insightful and important. In our media- and celebrity-crazed culture ("Land of snap decisions/Land of short attention spans/Nothing is savored long enough to really understand") , how can a real leader, someone who will inspire real change, possibly hold the public's attention long or deeply enough to really make a difference? It is troubling. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 22:29:31 EST From: StDoherty@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #22 In a message dated 1/21/2003 12:05:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, les@jmdl.com writes: > >You know that famous Joni line of course from the Mingus album. > > Not to be over anal about it, but wasn't it actually Sue Mingus who uttered > > that line? > I've always wondered about that. I never thought it was Joni, but didn't know who it was (only supposing it was Sue). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 22:40:11 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #45 -- Dancing Clown In a message dated 1/21/2003 10:06:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, BRYAN8847@aol.com writes: > Perhaps I am alone in my affection for the > song... > Yes, Bryan...when you dance with this clown, you're dancing alone. Bob NP: Tori Amos, "gold dust" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 22:58:03 -0500 From: "Suzanne MarcAurele" Subject: Our Times Generally I keep my thoughts on politics to myself because I really donot consider peace a dream I believe it is wholly possible in a world made up of very high IQ's - unfortunately this is not the case and thus any thoughts I have on the subject tend to be more radical than Hitler since I am sick of people sickening my peace with all of their piracy and other thieveries that gave the greater part of humanity a super jumpstart to a better life without ever having had one damned ancestor work at it to get it and they are still damned complaining about it! I say we might as well bomb the hell out of all of them and pray that the planet survives since reason doesnt work! (heh heh, I am sure now all of you are aghast - so at the very least stop kissing the ass of the thieves and start concerning yourself with survival standards ya know?! ha me doubts are greater!) The whirl of words continues S. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 23:43:23 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights NJC >The issue is far too involved to be reduced to slogans. > Reality is far more complex than simplistic answers. I agree with this. >And as fetus is a fetus. It is not a life. It is a potential life. Roe v >Wade has provisions for fetus' that are viable outside the >womb. But for a non viable fetus, it remains a fetus, not >a person, and sometimes tough decisions have to be made in >the light of the realities of many circumstances in the >life of each individual. I have several questions for you: When does God breath life into that soul? What's your best guess? At the time of conception? First trimester? Second trimester? Does it not say in the Old testament that God KNEW US in the womb? A man of the cloth.. how do you reconcile this? IF it's not a life.. what is it? (sorry..I've asked you more than several questions) Bree >(the Rev) Vince >who has been called a baby killer and physically attacked >by so-called RTLers more times that I care to remember; the >battle to preserve choice goes on _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 00:03:47 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Subject: "I Have A Dream", sjc Amen. I have only but to add the immortal words of David Byrne who said verily unto all, >"Same as it ever was." Lama Simon said, >> andmoreagain >> >>> Joni said, "They kill people who give hope in this culture." >>> Dr King said, >>>> When we let freedom ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual, "Free at last! free at last! thank God Almighty, we are free at last!" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 13:09:48 +0800 (PHT) From: Subject: Re: A New Standard? Wow! This is excellent news! I like Claire Martin as a singer and I think she has got this way of phrasing that unmistakably reminds one of the jazz phrasing of the great ladies of jazz a century ago. Claire Martin also covered Julia Fordham's "More Than I Can Bear" and it was a chilling musical portrait of a woman who imagined the other woman wearing her clothes in their room. I said before in the list that my favorite Joni song of all time has always been "Blue Motel Room" and its exhilirating to know that the singers I respect (i.e. Karrin Allyson, Claire Martin) are covering this gem of a Joni song. Yes, Bob, definitely a new standard! Joseph in Siberian-wind-swept Manila > OK, so today I found out that yet another jazz vocalist has done a cover > of "Blue Motel Room" - Claire Martin, who also has done a most > excellent version of "Be Cool". So that makes 4 covers of BMR that were > released in 2002. Not that it's going to overtake McCartney's > "Yesterday" at any moment, but I wonder if it's slowly becoming a new > "standard"? It certainly deserves to be! > > And is it the most deserving song of Joni's to become her next standard? > In my opinion, these already are: > > Both Sides Now > Big Yellow Taxi > Woodstock > Chelsea Morning > > Wondering what y'all think? Note: those who gripe about NJC threads > maybe want to contribute to this one instead of complaining, or you > know, start a Joni thread one of your own! :~) > > Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 13:12:44 +0800 (PHT) From: Subject: Re: A New Standard? > about Circle Game...it definitely is Standard > material, certainly among Asian women anyway! :~) Just curious, Bob, but what made you say The Circle Game is standard material for Asian women? Joseph in Manila ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 00:15:48 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Re: Play that Weird Minor Chord, njc now, short Me too. I'm holding up my debut disc until Wayne's available. Our schedules just never mesh....... Lama, who's wondering if Bob's name is correctly pronounced "m-YULE-r" or "MULL-er". You would think by now, I'd know. Bob Muller said, >>>>> Joni has said in interviews that she would not consider doing a project without Wayne. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 00:23:37 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: TNT All-Star Tribute to Joni Mitchell, njc I noticed that someone idiot is getting $36 US Dollars for a CD-R copy of the audio of the "TNT All-Star Tribute to Joni Mitchell". That's available in stereo, (with video!) on VHS tape, as I said yesterday, free from me when you send two blanks and return postage. More to the point, it's also available free is a cassette dub of a wonderful digital audience recording that puts you right in the room, (when you send a blank cassette and return postage). Crank this puppy up loud and you'll forget your cares, I guarantee. (Thanks, Simon. As always, you rock.) Write me off-list for instructions. I got 2 takers yesterday. Who else? Lama ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 00:57:45 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights NJC Bree Mcdonough wrote: > > I have several questions for you: When does God breath life into that > soul? What's your best guess? At the time of conception? First > trimester? Second trimester? Does it not say in the Old testament > that God KNEW US in the womb? A man of the cloth.. how do you > reconcile this? IF it's not a life.. what is it? (sorry..I've asked > you more than several questions) > I always enjoy when it gets to "a man of the cloth." Your questions are fair and I answer them fully in respect to you. The breath of life comes at birth, there is no breathing in the womb. Given the Hebrew usage of the word breath, spirit, and wind, the breath of life comes at birth, when a fetus becomes a born and living person. A fetus who is miscarried or stillborn has never been considered a living person, because breath, life, comes with birth, vaginal or caesarian, at viability outside of the womb. God knows us in the womb - so I have no doubt that God knows which will miscarry, which will be aborted, which will reach full term. Those passages from the psalms do not speak much to me on this issue. It also says God fore knows - which makes my point. Those passages, such as last Sunday's psalm from 139, are addressed to the knowledge that Samuel was fore ordained to be a great prophet. They are not scientific treatises. I am sure that when God looks upon some of the hideous maldevelopments of some fetuses, God knows why God gifted humanity with medical skills and intelligence and discernment so that those deformed fetuses can result in terminated pregnancies and spare the mother possible death and the mortally doomed fetus the agony and suffering and death that would come with a full term pregnancy. My oldest daughter (I am full of surprises) is so severely damaged from fetal maldevelopment that had she been born in any other time than when she was, she would have died at birth, however, they were able to revive her. Had fetal testing been available, it is probable that she would have been aborted. Given her situation, I have encountered many other children whom I can only term miscarriages that live, the level of pain and suffering that these children endure (and Amy is now 32 and it breaks my heart). It is about the most heart wrenching thing a parent can endure. To sit in the institutions where these living human vegetables are warehoused and see all the children in this situation... one of the blessings of Roe v Wade and improved in utero testing is that fetus' are more often being aborted when they are this malformed. And when I passed over from emotion to rage at RTLers is the day we left the institution where Amy and the others, so severely deformed with no connection to this world, were at then, and passing through a demonstration of people calling us "baby killers" because we are pro choice. Amy is now 32. In all the years, whether at the institution or the home based foster care institution that she is now in with others in her situation, in the schools that these chidden are trucked to because they fall under the education codes. I have never once, not ever, seen a Ruler volunteer to sit with these children and do anything for these children. But the RTLers do make their appearances at the probate courts when parents try and get their daughters, such as Amy, sterilized because as sick as it is, there are male staff people who impregnate women like Amy. Sometimes the males in this situation who have the mental capacity of a new born yet have the urge to procreate and it is a living nightmare when it happens. Amy may be profoundly retarded and an IQ so low it cannot be measured and has no way of connecting to this world, but she can get pregnant and bear a child. And when parents or guardians go to the probate courts to get the authorization for sterilization of these children, or in some cases, abortions for those impregnated, the RTLers are there to oppose. My anger level gets very high then. They favor the genetic and biological monstrosities that are born of these unions and go back to the churches and congratulate themselves on their fight "for life" while perpetrating horror on human beings that they will never again have contact with. As a man of the cloth, I note the total absence of any Scriptural teaching on abortion, a practice well known at all times in which I Bible was written, That silence tells me that God tells us to use our intellects on this and act with justice, with compassion, and in response to reality. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #48 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)