From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #40 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, January 17 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 040 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Just war (NJC) ["Lori Fye" ] Agenda Unmasked NJC [cheapbmr@pacbell.net] Re: Just war (NJC) ["chuty001" ] Re: The True Bush Agenda In Iraq NJC PC [Jenny Goodspeed ] Re: My Epiphany - HOSL ["Stephen Toogood" ] HITS ["Stephen Toogood" ] Re: My Epiphany, sjc ["Stephen Toogood" ] Re: re;talking about Joni Mitchell with my writing group ["Stephen Toogoo] Re: "Yellow checkers for the kitchen" ["Stephen Toogood" ] NJC One last thought before bed ["Lucy Hone" ] Iron Eyes Cody (sorry, no pc, rc or wc) [AzeemAK@aol.com] RE: (NJC) Speaking of gun control ... ["Heather" ] Gillian Anderson njc [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Gillian Anderson njc ["chuty001" ] Re: Catholic Church and consistency (njc) rc ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: Greatest Hits [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Just war (NJC) (PC) ["Arlene T." ] I'm a bitch about political content in JMDL postings ["Arlene T." Subject: Re: Just war (NJC) > We all of us have so much humanity to lose. Beautiful post, Lucy. Thank you. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 17:43:06 -0700 From: cheapbmr@pacbell.net Subject: Agenda Unmasked NJC From: Kent Here's the Chalmers Johnson article, with the quote on the need for a new Pearl Harbor. - -------------------- Agenda Unmasked - -------------------- Deposing Hussein was a distant dream for administration officials -- until 9/11. By Chalmers Johnson Chalmers Johnson is the author of "Blowback" and the forthcoming book "The Sorrows of Empire: How the Americans Lost Their Country." January 12 2003 DEL MAR -- In the hours immediately after the Sept. 11 attacks, long before anyone was certain who was responsible for them, Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld reportedly asked that plans be drawn up for an American assault on Iraq. The following day, in a Cabinet meeting at the White House, Rumsfeld, according to Bob Woodward, insisted that Iraq should be "a principal target of the first round in the war against terrorism." The president reportedly was advised that "public opinion has to be prepared before a move against Iraq is possible" and instead chose Afghanistan as a much softer target. The complete article can be viewed at: http://www.latimes.com/la-op-johnson12jan12,0,7513255.story Visit Latimes.com at http://www.latimes.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 18:51:22 -0500 From: "chuty001" Subject: Re: Just war (NJC) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lucy Hone" > To: > Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 6:23 PM > Subject: Just war (NJC) > > > > Dear All JMDL-ers. > > I sit here, stunned, amazed, and humbled at the incredible and admirable > > lengths to which the contributors to this particular subject,(JUST WAR) > are > > so cogently able to make their many, varied and valid points. > > > > What strikes me about all of this terrible situation, and the horrendous > > other attrocities that are being committed throughout the world,.. or are > in > > the process of being planned to take place... is that each involved party, > > whether pro or contra that particular situation, manage to argue their > > various points with a passion that is amazing to behold. > > We are all only humans. I made the point in my first mail to the list > about > > a man called Satish Kumar. He made a point to me, in our conversation, > that > > the powerful people in this world, each and every one of them is "only a > > human". George Bush, Saddam Hussein, Tony Blair, Putin, you name any of > the > > heads of state in this planet, they are only human and only men... just as > > powerful women are only women. They have, as we do, all the foibles and > > failings of us less famous people, they have come to power because they > > sought it, and (at least where voting is almost certainly run properly) > put > > into power because they are believed in by a voting populace... they are > > also manipulated by other humans would like to be in power and who place > > their own schemes in front of the men with the pens to sign and the > buttons > > to push. > > > > I think it was Plato who said (and forgive me if I am wrong) that the very > > people who seek public office are exactly the people who should not have > it. > > and that becomes more and more evident as this world turns ever closer to > > yet another conflict... there is no one answer as to what this "JUST WAR" > > is about but the words "SPIN DOCTORS" rise up in my mind very quickly.... > > hidden agendas and corporate greed are other words that hover on the > edges. > > > > There is not one politician I would ever vote in to office and I try to > > avoid politics. > > > > However I live in a heaveily naval town and have seen the boats sailing > out > > to see, the newly aommandeered merchantmen (ships) hanging about doing > > manoevres with landing craft two minutes from my house, and the very very > > empty moorings in the harbour where 4 days ago the ARK ROYAL was waiting > > (heavily draped to avoid prying eyes). I feel sick to the core of my being > > to think of any nation losing its men and women to battle. > > > > Each and every politician who is allied to the BIG NAMES has sent us to > this > > flashpoint and I do not know how to tell my 11 year old daughter how it is > > that we are heading to conflict or actually the reasons why... Reading the > > amazing viewpoints on the list has made me think about it so much more > > deeply than I have ever thought about world conflict before. > > > > And however much the points are argued, however much the cases are > cogently > > put, do any of us truly feel that this is a JUST WAR? There are too many > > lies, twists, misinformations and hidden agendas for this ever to be a > JUST > > WAR... I apologise to any who lost relatives in the Twin Towers and whom > my > > viewpoint may offend but there has to come a point where belief is > suspended > > and a very long hard look at who has got what to gain from any conflict in > > the Gulf. > > > > I apologise for not quoting endlessly from everyone's mails but I am not > > equal to the task of arguing point for point. this mail is my gut feel. I > am > > prompted to end with this late 50's early 60's anti-war poem, I do not > know > > who wrote it but a friend copied it to me some years ago....... > > > > If night should come sooner than we thought it might > > remember that I loved you. > > Not, I grant, a love that sacrifices truth or light > > but still a love that leant the world a heart > > on some warm secret hillside in the night. > > > > We all of us have so much humanity to lose. > > Lucy > > Lucy you get a standing ovation from me. Thanks for the post. Chuck ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 15:56:49 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: The True Bush Agenda In Iraq NJC PC Even his "axis of evil" comment - which you could almost believe Bush might've coined - wasn't his own; it was David Frum's. I just read an interview with Bush's ex-speechwriter this week - I can't remember where. He actually wrote "axis of terror" and there was debate over whether North Korea should be included or not. And by the time the speech left Bush's lips it had been changed to Axis of EVIL (and included N. Korea) - the idea was to make the phrase more biblical sounding, since Bush has had success with biblical rhetoric in the past . So dubyah just may have been the one responsible for that nightmare of a comment (which he repeated over and over....) Speaking of repitition, if I hear the phrase "smoking gun" one more time I'm gonna hurl. Jenny Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 16:03:29 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Article about anti-Americanism NJC PC i agree with steve, better to quote a sentence or so & provide a link btw, sarah, what was your point in posting this article?... i was offended by the insinuations made by the author concerning war protesters being labeled anti-american... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 16:12:22 -0800 (PST) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: Catholic Church and consistency (njc) rc Bree wrote: I feel I must defend the CHURCH. The Catholic church is like any other club..organization.. in that that have tenets..rules to follow. When you join anything one usually agrees with the rules..if not, get out. The Catholic church on morals and faith will not change with the whims of man. I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one, Bree. In my lifetime, the church has changed its stance on some rules that I was told were vitally important when I was young. These may seem trivial, but as people followed them less and less, the church changed its mind about their importance and pretty much abandoned them altogether: - - women wearing a hat in church (nobody does that anymore. I had to put a &*#$@ kleenex on my head once to enter a Catholic church as a kid!) - - not eating meat on Friday (enter McDonalds and that went out the window) - - nuns wearing the traditional "habit" (sorry, a burqa by any other name... now nuns wear suits or something) - - fasting from 12:00 to 3:00 on Good Friday (everyone's at work; who fasts?) - -having to go to confession to receive communion (I'm not so sure anyone goes to confession anymore...) - - quickly bowing one's head when saying the name "Jesus" - - genuflecting (quickly kneeling on one knee) before entering the pew of the church or when passing in front of the altar (although my brother and sisters and I all remembered to do this long forgotten gesture at my father's funeral when we went up onto the alter to do the readings, which impressed my mother and various assorted relatives!) I know these can be seen as mostly ceremony. Yet, I think it illustrates that churches/religions do change with the times. Thanks for listening. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 18:14:20 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Agenda Unmasked NJC Kent, thanks for sending the link - interesting article. (I can't get the pdf file of the report to copy and paste so I'm paraphrasing.) It refers to a report about the American military and how it needs to improve itself technically. The original report says this transformation will only take place slowly, barring some catastrophic event like Pearl Harbor. It doesn't say such an event is "needed". I would say it's an innocuous statement, notwithstanding September 11. Sarah At 3:28 PM -0800 01/17/2003, cheapbmr@pacbell.net wrote: >From: Kent > >Here's the Chalmers Johnson article, with the quote on the need for >a new Pearl Harbor. > >http://www.latimes.com/la-op-johnson12jan12,0,7513255.story ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 18:15:09 -0700 From: Kent Southard Subject: Re: The True Bush Agenda In Iraq NJC PC Have forwarded the LA Times piece by Chalmers Johnson. As to Bush administration complicity, or culpability, you have to admit, the pieces add up in a strange way. Coleen Rowley, (sorry, misspelled her name earlier) couldn't get a FISA warrant against Zacarias Moussaoui, even though she had confirmation from French Intel that he was Al Qaeda. Her supervisor in Washington, before submitting the FISA request (and previously, NO FISA requests had been refused!) deleted the confirmation from French Intel. This supervisor, just this last week, got an award at the White House. French Intel says they gave a full and substantial dossier on Moussaoui to both the CIA and the FBI - they say they received only 'sketchy' information. Like I say, add to this Ashcroft's actions, etc. and a case could be made that the attacks were allowed to happen. Then, many conservatives say FDR allowed the original Pearl Harbor to happen. As for the Saudi's, the criticism of them is coming from everyone but the Bush administration; after all, Neil Bush last year took a contract to do PR work for the House of Saud......- Kent - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Kent Southard" ; ; Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 3:54 PM Subject: Re: The True Bush Agenda In Iraq NJC PC > But Kent, are you saying you believe the Bush administration may have > caused 9/11? And the FBI was involved? This is arch-conspiracy > stuff. It's like the Arabs saying the Jews caused it because there > were no Jews in the WTC at the time. > > If you have time, I'd very much appreciate a link to the comment that > America needs another Pearl Harbour, as I'd like to read the article. > > As for it being important to Bush to protect the Saudis, I've never > read such anti-Saudi material coming from any administration before. > Bush, unlike previous presidents, has put the Saudis firmly on notice > that their days of working both sides are numbered. > > Sarah > > > > > At 2:52 PM -0800 01/17/2003, Kent Southard wrote: > >5. As for 'Americans having something to do with 9/11' - I look at facts > >such as John Ashcroft, who had the USA-Patriot Act all ready to go when the > >attack came; Ashcroft stopped flying commercial at the end of July due to a > >'threat assessment.' Bush himself got out of town for the whole next month, > >as did Cheney. It's fairly inexplicable that while CIA Director Tenet was > >distraught with fear of an attack, was giving briefings, etc., that the Bush > >administration had still not put a priority for the NSC to translate > >transmissions from Al Qaeda and the Taliban - so when the messages came thru > >that basically said 'Tomorrow's the big one!' they sat without attention. > >And look at the FBI warnings that were not just ignored, but actively > >subverted. The supervisor who cut off Cowley's investigation just got > >promoted and an award, for pete's sake. If it's not all a matter of criminal > >intent, that they let it happen on purpose, then it's certainly a matter of > >criminal negligence. And as John O'Neill, the FBI counter-terrorism chief > >who quit to die at the WTC said, 'It all goes back to the Saudi's, and while > >protecting the Saudi's was important in every administration, it became much > >more so with Bush.' ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 16:18:37 -0800 (PST) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: Re: thud (njc) Lori wrote: > Sorry, no time for that. I'm too busy watching reruns > of old golf tournaments on the Golf channel. > > ; ) > > ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz ... OMG! Russ actually DOES watch reruns of old golf tournaments! (But I love him anyway.) Yup, watching sailing has been compared to watching paint dry. But this time around, I'm really into it! So, to Steve D (and Michele) wasn't Oracle's win the other night just AWESOME? I loved it when Alinghi sailed into the hole. When you get your own private breeze like Oracle did, it's just the best feeling in the world! So, if Alinghi wins the whole thing, where would they sail next time - Lake Geneva?? and (ok a little Joni content) based on Song to a Seagull, I'll bet Joni likes sailing. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 19:18:04 EST From: Aerchak@aol.com Subject: I'm a bitch about political content in JMDL postings Lori, I'm serious. Whatever happened to the statue? And I don't want to annoy you, but do YOU really like Travelogue? Sure, there are some great Joni songs that are pleasant enough to listen to. But, if you had to choose, would you really prefer them to the original versions? And, if you had to choose the songs that were going to be on that album, done in that manner, would you not have chosen some other songs. I have to admit I am perplexed by Joni's choices here and it kills me to hit that button on my CD forward, but I do it. All this talk about Travelogue makes me want to puke too. No matter how much anyone loves or hates it, there isn't anyone on the planet that will convince me that they don't want more original music by Joni. Joni writing, Joni playing guitar and Joni singing. And whatever happened to Joni playing piano? I fully respect Joni making Travelogue and doing whatever the f--- she wants to do. I LOVE her voice and know she plays a hell of a guitar. I welcome anything she puts out and hope she writes some more great songs. There is no way in hell her well is dry. It's probably just a matter of if she wants to put the energy into recording them and putting up with record company "cesspool" shit. Lately, I've been listening to Turbulent Indigo, which I listened to when it was released, but am revisiting. I am totally enthralled with "The Magdelene Laundries", and it's such a thrill discovering a great JM song like I did 20 - - 30 years ago. I find myself driving to work trying to learn every word to sing it properly. I haven't done that in a long time. Most of the songs I know. I believe that what I am saying is that it has been so wonderful discovering and loving a new song by Joni, that moves me, after 30 years, I can hope for more, can't I? Or at least let me buy one of her landscape paintings? Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 18:21:48 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Article on American-Saudi relations NJC PC Last week's row over whether Princess Haifa--the wife of Prince Bandar bin Sultan, the Saudi Ambassador to Washington--helped pay for the September 11 attacks has exposed a fault line that runs through President's Bush's war on terror. The suggestion is that regular payments made by Princess Haifa from her Washington bank account made their way to associates of the September 11 hijackers. Mary Steyn describes the plot in this week's Spectator : "In this latest curious episode, the official explanation, if I can type it without giggling, goes something like this: Princess Haifa. . . gets a letter from a woman in Virginia she's never heard of complaining about steep medical bills. Being a friendly sort of princess, she immediately authorises the Riggs Bank in Washington to make payment by cashier's cheque of several thousand dollars per month to this woman, no questions asked. How come I can never get hold of a princess like that when I need one?" "Of the $130,000 she receives from the benevolent ambassadress, Majeda Ibrahin signs at least some of the cheques over to a friend of hers, who's married to a guy in San Diego who's helping two of the 11 September plotters. Pure coincidence, say the smooth-talking Saud princelings put up on the talk-show circuit since Newsweek broke the story at the weekend. Could happen to any good-hearted princess." American Senator Charles Schumer has accused the Saudis of playing "a duplicitous game" by buying off the terrorists - terrorists who claim to want to overthrow the Saudi government, yet who seem strangely attracted to attacking every country in the world apart from Saudi Arabia. President Bush is playing along with the double-dealing, perhaps in recognition of the Saudi royal family's awkward position within the Arab world, as an over-privileged and hated monarchy created by the British, friend of America, yet supporter of the Palestinians and defender of Islam's two holiest places, Mecca and Medina. Saddam Hussein showed the Arab royal families what can happen to them when he invaded Kuwait in August 1990. Osama bin Laden is a Saudi, as were 15 of the 19 September 11 hijackers, and al-Qaeda's operations in Afghanistan, Pakistan and elsewhere appear to have been financed with funds from the desert kingdom. Since the attacks on New York and Washington, American rhetoric against Saudi Arabia has become ever more provocative. Maureen Dowd in the New York Times recently urged President Bush to forget about invading Iraq and to invade Saudi Arabia instead: "A Saudi invasion would be like the Panama invasion during Bush I. We already have bases to use there. And this time Mr. Cheney won't have to beg the royals to use their air space, or send American forces. Once we make Saudi Arabia into our own self-serve gas pump, its neighbours will get the democracy bug." And then there's the issue of women in Saudi Arabia, where we are treated better than in Afghanistan under the Taliban, but only just. Dowd writes: "If we're willing to knock over Saddam for gassing the Kurds, we should be willing to knock over the Saudis for letting the state-supported religious police burn 15 girls to death last March in a Mecca school, forcing them back inside a fiery building because they tried to flee without their scarves. And shouldn't we pre-empt them before they teach more boys to hate American infidels and before they can stunt the lives of more women?" The attacks on the Saudis are often based on US intelligence leaked by American officials who seem concerned that not enough is being done by their own government. Last summer, a classified intelligence briefing to the Pentagon's defense advisory board was made public. "The Saudis are active at every level of the terror chain, from planners to financiers, from cadre to foot soldier, from ideologist to cheerleader," the report stated. It described the kingdom as "the kernel of evil, the prime mover, the most dangerous opponent" that America faced anywhere in the Middle East. Donald Rumsfeld quickly pointed out that the report did not reflect official US policy, thereby following a pattern in which each flurry of supposedly unofficial anti-Saudi sentiment is immediately diluted by official placatory statements from the Bush administration. It has the definite feel to it of good cop/bad cop. The US overlooks Saudi Arabia's human rights abuses, its lack of democratic freedoms, lack of a free press, lack of due process and of women's rights - all of which were justifications offered for the overthrow of the Taliban in Afghanistan. There are four main reasons for the American appeasement of Saudi Arabia. One obvious reason is oil. Saudi Arabia provides 17% of daily American oil needs and controls 25% of global reserves. And American dependence on Persian Gulf oil is projected to increase, not decrease, in the next 20 years. (America has not signed the Kyoto Protocol, so is not committed to finding alternative sources of energy.) Saudi Arabia is the only producer with the capacity to keep the global market stable by producing more oil in times of crisis to prevent price spikes. The second reason is Islam. The great fear in the region - a fear of the monarchs, as well as the West and Israel - is that the Islamists will get a foothold and the monarchy overthrown, as happened when the Shah of Iran was deposed in I979 and replaced by the Ayatollah Khomeini. With the Saudi royal family, it's a case of better the devil you know. The third big issue for America is Israel. Israel could not exist without American protection, military aid and money. The rejectionist Arab lobby (mainly Syria, Iraq, Libya and the Palestine National Authority) as well as the hardliners in Iran can be held in check to some extent by America's good relations with Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia. And then, of course, last but never least, there's Saddam Hussein. American has military bases in Saudi Arabia which it will have to use in the war against Saddam, as it did in 1991. If the Saudi royal family were to oppose the war, then not only would America be at a huge military disadvantage, but the whole of the Gulf Region and possibly even Jordan and Egypt would support Saddam Hussein too, making action against Iraq politically unfeasible. For all these reasons, the Bush administration is, as the Guardian reports, "fighting its war on terror with its right hand tied behind his back, its left eye closed, and shackles around its ankles." In his Spectator article, Mark Steyn compares the Bush and Bandar relationship to James Bond and the latest evil mastermind: "I always like the bit in the Bond movie where 007 and the supervillain meet face to face - usually at the supervillain's marine research facility or golf course or, in this latest picture, his Icelandic diamond mine. Bond knows the alleged marine biologist is, in fact, an evil mastermind bent on world domination. The evil mastermind knows Bond is a British agent. But both men go along with the pretence that the other fellow is what he's claiming to be, and the exquisitely polite encounter invariably ends with the mastermind purring his regrets about being unable to be more helpful. 'But perhaps we shall meet again, Mr. Bond,' he says, as the Oriental manservant shows 007 to the door." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 16:22:38 -0600 (CST) From: courtandspark@earthlink.net Subject: Re: Re: Just war (NJC) (PC) What happened to the political site Les set up? mack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 19:23:04 -0500 From: CoyoteRick@aol.com Subject: Announcement -- JoniFest LA -- June 6-8, 2003 All of your pals here on the West Coast are planning the first ever JoniFest LA on June 6-8, 2003. This event, intended for West Coast folks (but all are certainly welcome), promises to be a hoot! Here's the preliminary agenda: Friday Night: Barbecue at Rick and Brad's -- casual music, visiting, partying! Saturday Day: The Dulson's Historic Music Tour of LA (by car caravan)concluding with a Malibu picnic lunch Saturday Night: The music night -- all arranged by a special guest to LA! Sunday Brunch: Farewell Brunch, music and more! The committee's goal is to keep event costs as low as possible. All food (except brunch) will be free and all events will be BYO(B) or whatever. Plan no more than $50 for event costs -- we are trying to do even better... We are planning some terrific surprises!! We have contacted hotels in the Hollywood area and have three willing to give special rates. Everything from a funky/cool youth hostel ($15/night) to a middle class ($60-$90/night) to the top of the heap ($180+/night). You will be responsible for making your own hotel arrangements. We'll provide the list to all those who are interested in coming, but after March 1, when it is finalized. LA's public transportation situation isn't all that bad. We will provide bus schedules/routes, subway schedules, and travel tips. You can get from the airport to the identified hotels for $1.35 using MTA. If you don't rent a car, we'll arrange transportation to/from events. Sure it's easier to have your own wheels, but for the budget conscious -- we have alternatives! If you are interested in attending this event, please email me privately. Give me a high/medium/low likelihood rating. We would like to have an idea of how many folks we may be expecting as we continue the committee's work. Have a great weekend! CoyoteRick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 00:27:25 -0000 From: "Lucy Hone" Subject: Re: Just war (NJC) Hello Lori I have watched your discussions with real interest and I am truly humbled at the knowledge and depth of feeling that are expressed. I am a true apolitical and a confirmed humanist. It does bother me, because of the human rights issues involved, about the plight of those in Iraq, but equally bothered about abuse in all countries and I do not exclude the UK or US in those areas of concern. I work for a very large children's charity as a fundraiser and feel deeply to the core about the issues young people face in this ever more scary world...the pressure they feel to take part in drug taking and alcohol abuse and the spiral or degradation that can lead from those things... I can rattle on for hours if required. the issues of war cmae up in a talk I was giving today when one of the kids said he felt truly despairing of any future for this planet when no one seemed to consider the youngsters whose fathers were going off to the Gulf, and may be killed fighting on the side of ....what? truth, justice, He was a 14 year old in a failing school who really made me think... It is a sad time for humanity....... and those who are the abusers, those who are the warmongers, those whose jingoism lights their pale eyes with zealous glee at the thought of a fight, whilst changing channels for the better news coverage of the bombings (that will take place)......... need to look inwards at what they are doing to the world, to the people they are supposed to be governing, and to their SELF (the inner being we all of us have reagardless of colour or creed). Jackson Browne in HOW LONG sings When you think about the money spent On defence by each government And the weapons of destruction they build they are so sure that they need.... and you think about the millions, and millions that money could feed..... that has my vote...... It should have been Aid to Afghanistan, not bombs.......... Lucy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 00:04:07 -0000 From: "Stephen Toogood" Subject: Re: My Epiphany - HOSL Wow that's funny 'Jungle Line' was one of the songs on HOSL that took me the longest to like. Same with 'In france', 'Sweet Bird' and 'Shadows & Light'. Love them all now though. Listening to this album really is like learning a new language. It never sounds the same! Different sounds jump out at me every time. Stephen Toogood NP: And When I Die ~ Laura Nyro "God goes up the cimney Like childhood Santa Claus The good slaves love the good book A rebel loves a cause" - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 9:25 PM Subject: Re: My Epiphany - HOSL > Stephen, > > It took me over two years to appreciate HOSL. For some reason I just couldn't get it. Loved Hejira immediately, but for the life of me I couldn't get HOSL - accept for Jungle Line - loved that immediately. Only through the persistance of a good friend did I finally come to appreciate this album, and then it was "Damn, why didn't I like this all along?" > > Jack ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 00:29:28 -0000 From: "Stephen Toogood" Subject: HITS I love the cover of HITS. I thought to myself that's quite clever what she has done and also I love B/W photography, and with MISSES I thought well she's got guts! I am glad that she did wait so long to do the compilations! I remember thinking wow these songs are from so many different albums. How consistent. It also made me think she is about the music rather than cashing in. If she had released a 'Best Of' in the states after THOSL she would have made a fortune no doubt. One thing about HITS & MISSES; each CD is about an hour long so I think (know) she has enough good songs to have fit a few more on. Considering it was over a 20 odd year period too. Something from DJRD would have been nice. Stephen Toogood NP: Cotton Avenue ~ Joni "God goes up the cimney Like childhood Santa Claus The good slaves love the good book A rebel loves a cause" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 00:32:32 -0000 From: "Stephen Toogood" Subject: Re: My Epiphany, sjc Yep thats right. Sometimes I wish I had more years behind me so I could have experienced Joni first hand or even seen her play live! That's whats so great about the list though I can share all your experiences. Stephen Toogood NP: Wedding Bell Blues ~ Laura Nyro "God goes up the cimney Like childhood Santa Claus The good slaves love the good book A rebel loves a cause" Jim L'Hommedieu wrote:- > Your first Joni album was 'hits'? Did I read this > correctly? That's amazing to me because it was so > recent. > > Your whole history with Joni, then, is completely > within the life of the JMDL! I was an isolated fan > for decades before Les finally got off his duff. > Funny. > > Lama > > > > --- Stephen Toogood wrote: > > We I got HITS first of all after being intrigued by > > her art work and the > > fact she had so many albums and I'd never heard of > > her! > > I refused to believe that 'Harry's House...' was the > > only good track on > > THOSL so I went back to it and bit by bit it got > > through to me and since > > then the album has only ever sounded divine. After > > that I eventually got > > every Joni album! > > > > So I guess it was THOSL that made me realise that > > her music grows and is > > timeless. > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 00:32:40 -0000 From: "Stephen Toogood" Subject: Re: re;talking about Joni Mitchell with my writing group Maureen, I think most people in the UK didn't get passed BLUE! Stephen Toogood NP: Goodbye Joe ~ Laura Nyro "God goes up the cimney Like childhood Santa Claus The good slaves love the good book A rebel loves a cause" - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 2:14 AM Subject: re;talking about Joni Mitchell with my writing group > Yesterday at my writing group I mentioned Joni Mitchell to one of the members > of the group. This woman loves poetry and is a good writer. We started > talking about music and I asked her about Joni's writing-what she thought. > She told me she never really listened to her but disliked the few hits she > had. I told her about Joni's poetry and how well she wrote. She said,":You > sound just like this friend I used to teach with. he said she was the best > too." I told her I would copy some of her songs and she could read the lyrics > for herself. When our break was over I went over to the table and told > another member that we discussing Joni Mitchell and he said he had never > heard of her! He's about 60 or so and was a professor etc etc. My personal > experience is that most people know little or nothing about her work or > stopped listening after Court and Spark. > > Maureen Walsh ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 00:32:56 -0000 From: "Stephen Toogood" Subject: Re: "Yellow checkers for the kitchen" "Bree Mcdonough" wrote:- > My absolute favourite moment from HOSL is the lead > into "Harry's House/Centerpiece." It gives me chills > each time I hear it. I so know what you mean. Also the instrumental build up before she starts with "Yellow checkers for the kitchen..." Wow and even better with headphones. Stephen Toogood NP: Stoney End ~ Laura Nyro "God goes up the cimney Like childhood Santa Claus The good slaves love the good book A rebel loves a cause" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 00:33:06 -0000 From: "Stephen Toogood" Subject: Re: Tori Amos last night NJC Tamsin, I'm so jealous. Did you see her on Graham Norton Wednesday? She looked stuning. I guess 'Taxi Ride' will be the next single then! Has to be her most up-beat one. Stephen Toogood NP: He's A Runner ~ Laura Nyro "God goes up the cimney Like childhood Santa Claus The good slaves love the good book A rebel loves a cause" - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tamsin Lucas" To: Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 8:33 AM Subject: Tori Amos last night NJC > I went to see Tori last night at the Hammersmith Appollo - it was > phenomenal, the best Tori show I have been to and a truly amazing live > performance. She has such stage presence and her voice was beautiful - > getting deeper I notice all the time ;-) > She had a band with her this time but did a section in the middle that was > just her and piano, "Jackie's Strength" and "I can't see New York" were > highlights for me, sent shivers down my spine. > It was also the first concert (or indeed anywhere I think...) I have been to > where there was a queue for the men's but not one for the ladies - ? > Fantastic. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 00:42:53 -0000 From: "Lucy Hone" Subject: NJC One last thought before bed I cannot remember if this point has been made but....... The UK, the USA, France, Russia and China all have the capability to manufacture (and probably have stockpiles) of "Weapons of mass destruction." Indeed 60 miles away from where I sit is the UK No 1 germ warfare establishment called Porton Down. Sarin was tested there in the 50's and 60's and there are various law suits pending (I seem to recall) as the hapless guinea pig people who agreed to test the new "drugs" suffered apalling reactions to the nerve agents and viruses with which they were bombarded. Can we not expect a visit from agents from countries who currently feel threatened by us to ascertain our situation and capabilities? Finally.......you can tell places that are a bit sensitive. They have big signs on them that say....... No photography. This building and its surroundings fall within the regulations of the Official Secrets act...etc.," Subtle aren't we......... Good night all from an emotionally exhausted me... Thank you for the list Les, it gives me food for thought and some hope for the future..... Lucy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 20:37:27 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Iron Eyes Cody (sorry, no pc, rc or wc) I've just been surfing around the urban legends reference pages (www.snopes.com), and found a fascinating piece about Iron Eyes Cody, looking at the question of whether he was actually a Native American. I'd never heard of him until he cropped up on Lakota, singing that haunting intro; my enjoyment of that was tempered by the knowledge that Joni and her crew had recorded him singing the intro, then put it through the Fairlight so they could change the key to bring it into line with the song and chop it up to make it sound as if he was singing BVs throughout the track. Sacrilege, I thought! I had these worthy thoughts that some sacred chant of his had been desecrated. Well, I still think that a bit, but I know now that Ol' Iron Eyes wasn't quite all he seemed either... Azeem in London NP: Aimee Mann - Lost in Space ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 20:39:14 -0500 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: (NJC) Speaking of gun control ... Or the right to bare arms ... which i am all for. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Lori Fye Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 3:58 PM To: colin; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: (NJC) Speaking of gun control ... > I also think the right to bear arms is ridiculous. What about the right to arm bears? > It makes me so mad I could shoot someone. LOL ... : D ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 20:44:17 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Gillian Anderson njc Sculley herself was on Desert Island Discs this week; what a splendid woman! Very intelligent and sussed, and she even spent her formative years in Crouch End - my manor! Sounds impossibly English now too. Anyway, she has excellent taste in music: among her choices was a wonderful and pretty unknown Joan Armatrading song (Save Me), Radiohead's Exit Music For A Movie (or words to that effect); two Leonard Cohen songs - Roberta Flack's version of Hey That's No Way To Say Goodbye and Jeff Buckley's Hallelujah; and, wonder of wonders, Jane Siberry's inspirational Love Is Everything. Good on yer, Gillian! Funny thing is, I've never seen The X-Files... Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 21:05:58 -0500 From: "chuty001" Subject: Re: Gillian Anderson njc a wonderful > and pretty unknown Joan Armatrading song (Save Me), As in throw me a life line save me? This is unknown what kind of planet have I landed on. Scully with an English accent I'd be putty in her hands. Thanks Azeem Chuck ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 21:05:11 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Catholic Church and consistency (njc) rc >Bree wrote: I feel I must defend the CHURCH. The >Catholic church is like any other club..organization.. >in that that have tenets..rules to follow. When you >join anything one usually agrees with the rules..if >not, get out. The Catholic church on morals and faith >will not change with the whims of man. > >I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one, >Bree. In my lifetime, the church has changed its stance >on some rules that I was told were vitally important >when I was young. These may seem trivial, but as people >followed them less and less, the church changed its >mind about their importance and pretty much abandoned >them altogether: Hi Anne..I hope things are going well for you. When I wrote faith and morals ..I mean those *laws * that were passed down from Peter (the first pope) those laws which are immutable. The examples you have given are very true...but those are traditions ... things that evolved over the course of the church. I would disagree with you about the fasting..and confession. ....still there and encouraged. ( I remember the first time I saw my principal out of her traditional habit...I could not believe it. She not only had legs but hair too!) But those stances that *even* the pope CAN NOT change because they did not come from man.( Approval for abortion..euthanasia.) Because certain laws/rules came directly from God and given to His church through HIS SON JESUS. That all life is sacred...therefore the pope, the Church, can not give it's approval to abortion. Take care.. Bree >- women wearing a hat in church (nobody does that >anymore. I had to put a &*#$@ kleenex on my head once >to enter a Catholic church as a kid!) >- not eating meat on Friday (enter McDonalds and that >went out the window) >- nuns wearing the traditional "habit" (sorry, a burqa >by any other name... now nuns wear suits or something) >- fasting from 12:00 to 3:00 on Good Friday (everyone's >at work; who fasts?) >-having to go to confession to receive communion (I'm >not so sure anyone goes to confession anymore...) >- quickly bowing one's head when saying the name "Jesus" >- genuflecting (quickly kneeling on one knee) before >entering the pew of the church or when passing in front >of the altar (although my brother and sisters and I all >remembered to do this long forgotten gesture at my >father's funeral when we went up onto the alter to do >the readings, which impressed my mother and various >assorted relatives!) > >I know these can be seen as mostly ceremony. Yet, I >think it illustrates that churches/religions do change >with the times. > >Thanks for listening. > >lots of love >Anne _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 21:11:56 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: HITS In a message dated 1/17/2003 7:33:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, steve@hatstand.org writes: > I love the cover of HITS. I thought to myself that's quite clever what she > has done and also I love B/W photography, and with MISSES I thought well > she's got guts! > > I just this week discovered the "Hits & Misses" website that Wally constructed. It has some alternative photos, it's cool. Go to JoniMitchell.com & have a look if you haven't seen it already. Bob NP: Andy Partridge, "Fuzzy Warbles Volume 1" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 21:29:25 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: come in from the COLD In a message dated 1/17/2003 2:08:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, mtotzke@gosympatico.ca writes: > TRAIN (too damn busy > by half); Plus the original was so fun, and the T'Log version just makes it so dreary. > SEX KILLS (am I the only one who's fairly sick of that > song?); It's a damn fine song BUT certainly not with an orchestral arrangement!! What were they thinking? It's an angry song, it needs to be more electric, with a more venomous production, and more energy, and much more uptempo. It amazes me that nobody knew this one was such an awful marriage, or maybe nobody had the guts to speak up, or maybe they did & Joni vetoed them, Either way, it's just a real bad decision. Same with Cherokee Louise & FTR, these are INTIMATE and personal songs, not orchestral songs...to subject them to this treatment almost feels like parody. > In my "imaginary" T'LOG, these are replaced by HELP ME, > EDITH, SCARLETT, COTTON AVENUE, LOVE PUTS ON > A NEW FACE. What is missing for YOU? New songs! ;~) Seriously - Shadows & Light (this got the Lyle Mays synth treatment on the live record; would be nice to hear it with a real and full string section) And for all the beating it takes, DED has some good songs on it, and there was an opportunity with T'log to revisit and re-produce some of them without the 80's cliches. I'd go with Impossible Dreamer as my top pick in this category. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 21:54:45 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: HITS just this week discovered the "Hits &Misses" website that Wally constructed. It has some alternative photos, it's cool. Go to JoniMitchell.com &have a look if you haven't seen it already. I forgot how darn hard to find this thing was - probably why I had never seen it before! :~) Anyway, here is the path: http://www.jonimitchell.com/HMMain96.html Bob NP: Andy Partridge, "I Bought Myself A Liarbird" (demo) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 22:03:06 -0500 From: "Arlene T." Subject: Re: Greatest Hits If I'm not mistaken, I believe the reason Joni released those records was to fulfill a contractual obligation. - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 5:52 PM Subject: Re: Greatest Hits : In a message dated 1/17/2003 4:30:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, sp@olympus.net : writes: : : > Nevertheless, I couldn't fully understand her reasoning, and still don't, : > if her stance on the issue is the same. : : Good points all, Scott...there are plenty of reasons why "Hits" & "Misses" is : a good idea. First, the aforementioned "Gateway" idea. They DO make a nice : introductory piece to newcomers about Joni's work, and will most likely : prompt a few 'oh, I didn't know ahe wrote THAT' sorta comments, and as such : are nice gifts from those of us who may want to be Jonivangelists, or at : least recommend. Giving someone a single release could be : misleading...imagine someone getting STAS, deciding they like Joni, and : picking up Mingus or DED next...they'd be pretty surprised! : : Matter of fact, I haven't gotten around to picking up Hits or Misses myself. : No sense in it, except for UFG which I already have on another cd anyway. : : Bob : : NP: Steve Earle, "Conspiracy Theory" : ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 22:05:20 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Greatest Hits In a message dated 1/17/2003 10:03:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, hejira57@worldnet.att.net writes: > If I'm not mistaken, I believe the reason Joni released those records was to > fulfill > a contractual obligation. > You're not mistaken; Joni finally capitulated on the "Hits" but would only allow it if she got to release the "Misses" as well. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 22:07:23 -0500 From: "Arlene T." Subject: Re: Just war (NJC) (PC) FYI, you can voice your objections, or whatever, directly to Bush at president@whitehouse.gov. For whatever it's worth. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 22:16:51 -0500 From: "Arlene T." Subject: I'm a bitch about political content in JMDL postings Andrea, I totally agree with your criticisms. And I love "Magdalene Laundries" as well. Finally a melody worthy of Joni! But Joni really lost me when she started using that electronic guitar that holds all her tunings. I can understand why she would use it, but its sound, to my ear, is horrible. As for her piano playing, I was never a big fan of her technique; there are far far better pianists. But an acoustic guitar or a dulcimer - ahhh. In any event, I was fortunate enough to have seen her live twice: once during her "For The Roses" tour and then again during the "Miles of Aisles" tour. She was animated, in great voice, dancing in that weird way of hers. So I have those memories, and of course the older albums, to hang on to. Cheers, Arlene - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 7:18 PM Subject: I'm a bitch about political content in JMDL postings : Lori, : : I'm serious. Whatever happened to the statue? And I don't want to annoy : you, but do YOU really like Travelogue? Sure, there are some great Joni : songs that are pleasant enough to listen to. But, if you had to choose, : would you really prefer them to the original versions? And, if you had to : choose the songs that were going to be on that album, done in that manner, : would you not have chosen some other songs. I have to admit I am perplexed : by Joni's choices here and it kills me to hit that button on my CD forward, : but I do it. : : All this talk about Travelogue makes me want to puke too. No matter how much : anyone loves or hates it, there isn't anyone on the planet that will convince : me that they don't want more original music by Joni. Joni writing, Joni : playing guitar and Joni singing. And whatever happened to Joni playing : piano? I fully respect Joni making Travelogue and doing whatever the f--- : she wants to do. I LOVE her voice and know she plays a hell of a guitar. I : welcome anything she puts out and hope she writes some more great songs. : There is no way in hell her well is dry. It's probably just a matter of if : she wants to put the energy into recording them and putting up with record : company "cesspool" shit. : : Lately, I've been listening to Turbulent Indigo, which I listened to when it : was released, but am revisiting. I am totally enthralled with "The Magdelene : Laundries", and it's such a thrill discovering a great JM song like I did 20 : - 30 years ago. I find myself driving to work trying to learn every word to : sing it properly. I haven't done that in a long time. Most of the songs I : know. I believe that what I am saying is that it has been so wonderful : discovering and loving a new song by Joni, that moves me, after 30 years, I : can hope for more, can't I? : : Or at least let me buy one of her landscape paintings? : : Andrea : ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #40 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)