From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #37 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, January 17 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 037 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Subject: Re: The 100 songs that changed the world NJC ["mike pritchard" <] Tori Amos last night NJC ["Tamsin Lucas" ] Subject: Re: Just war (NJC) (PC) ["mike pritchard" ] Re: war protests Kosovo njc [vince ] Re: Travelogue Opinion ["Blair Fraipont" ] e: NION (njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] The unknown Joni ["Kate Bennett" ] The True Bush Agenda In Iraq NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: war protests Kosovo njc ["kakki" ] Re: war protests pc njc [colin ] screen door slam [colin ] "Blowback" NJC ["Blair Fraipont" ] The Lies We Are Told About Iraq NJC PC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #16/Political information on Joni only digest [] Re: ACOY Covers [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: ACOY Covers [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: "Yellow checkers for the kitchen" [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: /Political information on Joni only digestNJC [colin ] 1999 posters on kosovo njc [vince ] opposition to war (njc) pc [anne@sandstrom.com] RE: war protests (PC, NJC) ["Mary E. Pitassi" ] Re: war protests Kosovo njc [Jenny Goodspeed ] RE: Best CD's of 2002 NJC [Jenny Goodspeed ] Re: war protests Kosovo njc [AzeemAK@aol.com] (njc) Paul? ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Just war (NJC) ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Antiwar groups NJC, PC ["Lori Fye" ] Intrepid NAMM Warriors (NJC) [Steve Dulson ] Re: Subject: Re: Just war (NJC) (PC) [sl.m@shaw.ca] re just war NJC PC ["mike pritchard" ] Re: Intrepid NAMM Warriors (NJC) [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Just war (NJC) (PC) ["Lori Fye" ] Re: The True Bush Agenda In Iraq (NJC) ["Lori Fye" ] (NJC) Speaking of gun control ... ["Lori Fye" ] Re: oops!Re: Bush lies--who lies? NJC, PC ["Lori Fye" ] ATT Jonatha fans-- Carson Daley Jan. 21 [Patti Witten Subject: Subject: Re: The 100 songs that changed the world NJC "1. That's All Right - Elvis Presley - Rock 'n' roll history begins here." >>Really? I think Little Richard, Chuck Berry, and many others would be very surprised to know this.<< Fred Relax, Fred, you know it's a misprint. It should have said "WHITE Rock 'n' roll history begins here". A common occurrence in the world of jazz, blues, rock and rap music, as I'm sure you know. Many congratulations on the commission; can we buy it? Where and how? mike in bcn ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:33:07 +0000 From: "Tamsin Lucas" Subject: Tori Amos last night NJC I went to see Tori last night at the Hammersmith Appollo - it was phenomenal, the best Tori show I have been to and a truly amazing live performance. She has such stage presence and her voice was beautiful - getting deeper I notice all the time ;-) She had a band with her this time but did a section in the middle that was just her and piano, "Jackie's Strength" and "I can't see New York" were highlights for me, sent shivers down my spine. It was also the first concert (or indeed anywhere I think...) I have been to where there was a queue for the men's but not one for the ladies - ? Fantastic. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:54:39 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Subject: Re: Just war (NJC) (PC) >>As a pacifist, you have a moral right to refuse to take part in violence. But others equally have a moral right to go to war, provided the conditions of "just war" (jus ad bellum) apply. These are: having just cause, being declared by a proper authority, possessing right intention, having a reasonable chance of success, and the end being proportional to the means.<< I was intrigued to see that 'having a reasonable chance of success' is one of the conditions of a 'just war'. My question is: if all the other conditions were in place and if, in contrast, one's military forces had an *unreasonable* chance of success, would this make it an *unjust war*, and would the failure to go to war in this circumstance be cowardly and immoral or merely pragmatic? mike in barcelona NPIMH Country Joe McDonald. Feel like I'm fixin' to die rag. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 03:55:20 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: war protests Kosovo njc You searched a little more than 2 months and found threads in 2 of the 3. I agree that the threads on Columbine and gun control were very emotional, flame wars, much more so than the ones on Kosovo, but I totally disagree that the Kosovo threads were any less intense than what is being said now. And I do not believe that the discussion of Kosovo was "few and far between" because it did range on for a period of time and not confined to threads where it was in the title. What also was posted? From those who disliked Clinton, that Clinton was doing what he did, acting in the exact moment that the Moslems of Kosovo were being slaughtered, because it was a "wag the dog" move to distract from Monica Lewinsky. Those same charges were made when Clinton went after bin Laden with limited (and unsuccessful) use of force. That is as opposed now to Bush, who has only the purest of motives and is not trying to hide his total failure to "get bin laden dead or alive." Yeah sure. In fact, if he were not threatening war against bin laden, the focus might be on exactly what has Bush accomplished in his "war on terrorism." Bush of course is in no way wagging the dog to hide the dreadful state of the American economy, specifically the budget deficits which were large surpluses when he came into office. On today's NPR it was reported that Bush is estimating the current one year deficit at $300 billion, not including the costs of any war (which I think is a huge "not including...') And at the same time Bush is proposed what is it $634? $654? billion in tax cuts for the wealthiest 255,000 Americans (himself included) the Republican Senators at Bush's request pushed through a spending bill that cuts $5 billion from homeland security because it "can't be afforded." And was it just last November that Bush was on the stump attacking people like now defeated Senator Cleland of Georgia - who lost his legs in Vietnam, unlike Bush who only forget to report to the national guard - was soft on homeland security because Cleland wanted the usual NLRB protections in place for the department of homeland security. In other words, Bush is a lying hypocrite whose position on homeland security is totally transient and only for political advantage, who opposes $5 billion in homeland security spending because of his $634 billion "Leave No Millionaire Behind" tax cut proposals. At Bush's request, every one of the 51 Republican senators voted against restoring the GOP cut of $5 billion from homeland security. And the tax cut moves forward... If there were a hell, and I do not believe that there is one, what Bush and the GOP Senate campaign under Frist did to Senator Cleland would merit a special place in it for what they did to Max Cleland in the last campaign. The savagery of that campaign to oust a man who lost is legs in Vietnam by accusing him of being soft on homeland security, in support of yet another Republican who did not serve in Nam or the military because of his trick knee, shows that decency, and building a political consensus across party lines, is totally unimportant to this administration, only raw political muscle is. But then this administration campaigned on being against saving Kosovo and against nation building and on so many things it now proposes to do. The claim that circumstances are different now after September 11th does not wash because that only shows the narrowness of this administration to conceive of anything that is not in Karl Rove's political strategy book, which is really frightening as this administration continues to refuse to consider what the after effects of a war on Iraq might be, and overlooks that in Kosovo there were people who were at that moment victims of current, continuing genocide, whereas in Iraq that situation has been in containment for many years. Bush and Karl Rove have proven themselves to be the grand masters of wag the dog. And the utter political calculations behind everything they do makes the charges that Clinton was poll driven seem like a reminder of a totally different and innocent era, even though it was not. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 04:12:03 -0500 From: "Blair Fraipont" Subject: Re: Travelogue Opinion Arlene, I must admit, that eventhough I bought Travelogue and am a huge fan as well, many of the tracks blend together...at first, but after several listenings, their individuality does shine. And as much as I like and admire Wayne SHorter, he just is on too many tracks. For instance on some songs he shines and adds scintillating accompaniment and on others more like an interruption. And don't feel awkward about sending your true feelings about Joni. There are people who understand your bewilderment :) Blair NP: "To her Ladyship" John Coltrane _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 01:27:00 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: e: NION (njc) okay sorry i thought it was your statement... >>I have no idea - it's not my quote - it's a quote I copied from the link from that particular antiwar group "ZNet << ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 01:27:08 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: The unknown Joni >>Surprisingly, my parents did not really know who Joni Mitchell was until I started listening to her records at full volume before bedtime - "Turn that woman off!" they'd shout. Gradually they came to respect my respect for Joni Mitchell and learned a lot about her in the process.<< funny because i'd guess your parents would be of the generation who would know joni...i am curious, who did they listen to? ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 01:27:09 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: The True Bush Agenda In Iraq NJC thanks for your post kent & i agree with you that the issue is of great importance...many here probably agree with you on your views, many others probably do not...still many others prefer not to post on these kinds of subjects at all...but welcome & thanks for your contributions to this discussion... for a change of subject, what is your favorite joni song? >>I've browsed this place for some months now, having become an ardent lover of the sublime Ms. Mitchell. I feel somewhat odd using my first post here on a political subject, but the issue is of such import, and the truth of the matter is in such short supply, I feel compelled to put this forward.<< ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 01:45:36 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: war protests Kosovo njc Vince wrote: > You searched a little more than 2 months and found threads in 2 of the 3. From April 7 to May 17th - isn't that about 6 weeks? > I agree that the threads on Columbine and gun control were very > emotional, flame wars, much more so than the ones on Kosovo, but I > totally disagree that the Kosovo threads were any less intense than what > is being said now. And I do not believe that the discussion of Kosovo > was "few and far between" because it did range on for a period of time > and not confined to threads where it was in the title. I did try to look at messages in posts where the title did not reflect Kosovo, but admit I did not read every single one. I assumed the Joni posts without njc probably didn't contain the subject of war. There were hundreds of other posts on Joni, Columbine and other subjects during that time period and, by my approximate count, 40 posts (opposing, supporting, skeptical and neutral, such as a request for prayers and to give aid to the refugees) related to Kosovo, from approximately 10 people. I only noticed a couple posts which criticized Clinton and did not notice the wag the dog accusation there (although I remember it from the bin laden bombings). I did not perceive the support or opposition to be particularly intense, in the sense that people were widely polarized on the issue of war as they are now. The supporters were, however, (rightly) passionate about the plight of the people in Kosovo. There were not hundreds of anti-Clinton posts in connection with that war. There was only one post from one person about a peace rally in San Francisco and an antiwar article from The Nation, not repeated requests to sign antiwar petitions and support antiwar groups. If I am completely off on this, please send me your list of cites and I will send you mine. As for the rest of the attacks on Bush and so on, it seems his opponents are just constantly throwing up many wild and inflated accusations that many people either know right off, or later find out, are not true. But how does one, in his defense, provide proof of something that doesn't exist - what is the saying - proving a negative? It doesn't matter - truth has a way of eventually surfacing. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:00:11 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: war protests pc njc As I read back on the > Kosovo thread from 1999, I did notice that there was complete consistency in > being opposed to war then and now from Colin, Fred and Randy, regardless of > political doctrines. > > Kakki > I don't know if i follow a political doctrine. i don't even know if i am a lefty or a righty! I imagine I have ideas that would be considered left or right by others. Is there a top ten list of ideas that says which is left or right? Two ideas I have come to mind: I believe in freedom for all and don't think the govt should interfere in people's personal lives. (that seems a Right idea to me) I don't agree that 'meritocracies' work.(sounds Left to me) I was thinking about this last night. I don't support any political party or ideology, as far as I know. I have never put my ideas or thoughts in a box and lablelled it. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:03:21 +0000 From: colin Subject: screen door slam wheni go to bed at night I always read. the novel i am reading is American. Anyway, it has the line'I heard the screen door slam' andimmediately Joni starts singing in my head. It was annoying, I couldn't remember the song tho it is/was on the tip of my toungue. I decided, without checking, that it was from BYT. Yes? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 05:20:41 -0500 From: "Blair Fraipont" Subject: "Blowback" NJC Speaking of Blowback, I took a "World in Our Time" History course this past semester at the University of Delaware and our professor showed us a "Frontline" or "Hardline" or CNN special on the topic of "Blowback". Quite interesting and revealing about the US connections with AFghanistan vs. Russia in the late 80s. ANyways, there is a book of the aforementioned subject and it may be interesting to some. Blowback By C. Simpson Blair NP: "BOdy and Soul" JOhn Coltrane >Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11, nothing to do with Wahabi >fundamentalist terrorism. The CIA funded bin Laden as part of its effort to >contain and subvert the Soviet Union with Islamic fundamentalism, and what >we have now is what's known as 'Blowback,' or the threat of unintended >consequences. If there were to be popular elections in Saudi Arabia, where >bin Laden and most of the hijackers are from, bin Laden would probably be >elected President. Which is probably the immediate impetus for invading >Iraq - Wahabism is so strong in Saudi Arabia that the House of Saud could >fall pretty soon, and so no more cheap oil for us. We get Iraq, we get the >cheap oil, we get a permanent military base to keep Saudi Arabia in line, >whether Wahabi or not. > >It's not about finding a dozen empty artillery shells. Hell, Rumsfeld said >last year the Pentagon couldn't account for $4 trillion worth of spending >over the last few decades. > >Avusblue _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 02:38:10 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: The Lies We Are Told About Iraq NJC PC The Lies We Are Told About Iraq "Pentagon propaganda got us into the first Gulf War. Will we be fooled a second time? OAKLAND -- The Bush administration's confrontation with Iraq is as much a contest of credibility as it is of military force. Washington claims that Baghdad harbors ambitions of aggression, continues to develop and stockpile weapons of mass destruction and maintains ties to Al Qaeda. Lacking solid evidence, the public must weigh Saddam Hussein's penchant for lies against the administration's own record. Based on recent history, that's not an easy choice." http://www.latimes.com/la-op-marshall5jan05,0,290533.story ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 06:41:30 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: ACOY Covers --- frasere@intergate.ca wrote: > Quoting SCJoniGuy@aol.com: > excellent, but these > > artists also turn in great ACOY's: > > > > Tori Amos > > Betty Buckley > > Michael Holland > > Brian Kennedy > > Prince > > Phoebe Snow > > Susan Webb > > > Well, Bob, the only one I have from this list is > Prince. As much as I love > Diana Krall's take on it, Prince blows it/her away! > Man, he IS good. It shows to go you how tastes differ. I can't stand Prince's version. I'm not a big fan of his to begin with, so that could be why. His version makes me cringe. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 06:46:40 EST From: Aerchak@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #16/Political information on Joni only digest I purposely switched to the joni only list because I was tired of the lengthly rantings on the political state of the world, primarily Iraq. I am not a member of this list to discuss politics or read about them. I do that through other means. I am actually incensed this morning to find that individuals just feel compelled to post their views on Iraq when this is a Joni only list. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IRAQ! These writers are oviously serving their own agenda and I suggest they suggest they find a group suited to these kinds of needs for these kinds of discussions. This group is called the JONI MITCHELL DISCUSSION LIST not the SADAM HUSSEIN DISCUSSION LIST. Give it a rest and get a clue. Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:23:19 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: ACOY Covers In a message dated 1/16/2003 10:18:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, frasere@intergate.ca writes: > Perhaps it's time for a new sweet 16???? Stephen, you KNOW as far as I'm concerned, it's ALWAYS time for Joni covers!! I'm currently planning on a follow-up to the quadruple platinum "Sweet 16", and will have it ready to share at the Fest. And you have to help me with a serious problem...I can't seem to get that Remy Shand CD out of my player! ;~) Bob NP: Dylan, "Dirt Road Blues" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:23:19 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: ACOY Covers In a message dated 1/16/2003 10:18:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, frasere@intergate.ca writes: > Perhaps it's time for a new sweet 16???? Stephen, you KNOW as far as I'm concerned, it's ALWAYS time for Joni covers!! I'm currently planning on a follow-up to the quadruple platinum "Sweet 16", and will have it ready to share at the Fest. And you have to help me with a serious problem...I can't seem to get that Remy Shand CD out of my player! ;~) Bob NP: Dylan, "Dirt Road Blues" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:38:04 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: "Yellow checkers for the kitchen" In a message dated 1/16/2003 11:06:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, littlebird3333@yahoo.com writes: > My absolute favourite moment from HOSL is the lead > into "Harry's House/Centerpiece." It gives me chills > each time I hear it. I would wager a guess that it is perhaps Joni's favorite from that project as well...it's the only HOSL song she did on her '98 tour, not that that's any kind of real proof. Just that it's one she tends to keep in her 'arsenal'. And you're right...HH is a real masterpiece from beginning to end. I love this little example (including your subject line) of her writing acumen: Battalions of paper minded males Talking commodities and sales While at home their paper wives And paper kids Paper the walls to keep their gut reactions hid Yellow checkers for the kitchen The way she uses the word "paper"...such a simple word, yet it means one thing to the husband/businessman, shuffling papers in his briefcase, and another thing to the housewife who uses wallpaper to change what she can while she suffers through what she cannot, and transitions that thought to the next stanza. And in the middle of it all, describes the whole scene as a collection of paperdolls (at least as seen through the eyes of the husband, as if his family can be put away and brought out as if they were toys)...wow, some piece of writing. Bob NP: Dylan, "Million Miles" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:46:06 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: /Political information on Joni only digestNJC These writers are oviously > serving their own agenda and I suggest they suggest they find a group suited > to these kinds of needs for these kinds of discussions. they have-the other Joni list. Unfortunately, people are human and do forget to put the NJC tag on. Annoying I am sure. Amd equally sure people do not do it deliberately. Even those who frequently moan about the lack of the NJC tag forget to use it at times! The Joni Only list was crreated as a result of the continual moaning about NJC posts. I think it was a good idea. What i find interesting is that some of those who moaned the most about NJC did not join the Joni Only list. Anyway, just to reiterate, of course the NJC tag should be remmebered, it is only fair. However, people are people and fallible and mistakes happen. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:00:46 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: war protests Kosovo njc kakki wrote: > > >It doesn't matter - truth has a way of >eventually surfacing. > > > And on that I will agree too. > > kakki wrote: "As for the rest of the attacks on Bush and so on, it seems his opponents are just constantly throwing up many wild and inflated accusations that many people either know right off, or later find out, are not true. But how does one, in his defense, provide proof of something that doesn't exist - what is the saying - proving a negative?" And my response: for my comments on Bush's proposed tax cuts and the Bush directive to the Senate yesterday to cut $5 billion from homeland security and the the 51 Republican votes to cut that $5 billion, the truth is not really so ephemeral; yesterday's congressional record will bear that one out. Luckily for truth, there was a debate on the Senate floor and a vote on Senator Byrd's amendment to restore the $5 billion. Senator Stevens of Alaska had some interesting comments to look up. As far as my comments on Frist's and Bush's role in the campaign against Max Cleland, one would merely need to go back to last November's election and see who was the head of the GOP Senate campaign committee (which would be Frist) and look at the campaign. What Bush does only seems like wild and inflated accusations to those who are not following him very closely, as well as the details of this administration, but are just going along with the carefully crafted media image. IMHO. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:05:45 -0500 From: vince Subject: 1999 posters on kosovo njc colin wrote: > As I read back on the > >> Kosovo thread from 1999, I did notice that there was complete >> consistency in >> being opposed to war then and now from Colin, Fred and Randy, >> regardless of >> political doctrines. >> >> Kakki >> > I don't know if i follow a political doctrine. No one knows that about you Colin! But you are very consistent in your philosophy, however it is defined, and that I truly respect (as well as agree with you most of the time). I remember in 1999 Clark Carlton's amazing posts on the historical background of the Balkan situation. I also remember the student from Germany whose name I always mis-spelled, Wilfred maybe (and I am sure that I misspelled it again) who for many months was giving us a very different perspective than the ones we were getting in this country. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 06:31:08 -0800 (PST) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: opposition to war (njc) pc Just a quick bit of info: My sister works for General Dynamics/ Electric Boat. She used to design nuclear subs, and is now a manager in the nuclear sub program. She works with a wide range of military people, including a lot of current and former Navy SEALs, people from the Pentagon, etc. Of course, there's been a lot of discussion about the possibility of a war against Iraq. Apparently, of everyone she works with, only one person (a secretary btw) thinks the war is a good idea. I find that really interesting. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:37:16 -0600 From: "Mary E. Pitassi" Subject: RE: war protests (PC, NJC) "It just has made me queasy personally that so many of the hard radical Marxist groups were so amazingly organized to protest any military action by the U.S. within days of 9/11. How could they have been SO organized in their opposition while most other people were still reeling from the events?" Kakki, perhaps you included directly relevant information in the material you posted yesterday, so I'll go back and look for it. But I'll need a little more convincing with evidence before I believe that "hard radical Marxist groups" were "amazingly organized" in the days immediately following 9/11. According to whom? And what exactly does "amazingly organized" mean? To do what? What DID they do? Organize rallies? Fund them? Call people? What? And how widespread was whatever practice they engaged in? My recollection, from living in a college town with a significant history of political protest spanning many years, is that campus groups *did* immediately spring into action to protest a possible war. However, many of those groups had been in existence for years. The infrastructure was already present. The groups were being consistent with their long-held and often-stated beliefs. Some of those groups did have a Marxist theoretical slant, and others did not. However, my strong sense is that these were LOCAL groups, comprised of individuals engaging in their right, as Americans, to peaceful protests. I certainly didn't get the impression that they were getting their marching orders from on high, from some uber-organization. You also wrote yesterday: "Cynically, it makes me think that if a different person was in the White House pursuing regime change in Iraq, the voices would be a lot more subdued, if not silent." Kakki, I sat on this one for a day, and in the meantime, someone else responded. But I find the need to add my two cents in here. And that is: with all due respect, I find this deeply offensive. My political beliefs are more complex and informed by more than simply who happens to be occupying the White House at any given moment. Please give me a little credit. Yes, I am a Democrat. Yes, accordingly, I tend to support the ideas and goals and policies of the Democratic party, and of Democratic politicians. But I will give anyone a fair hearing, and I will, I hope, carefully consider and weigh the evidence on both sides (I have no small professional training at this). I have voted for Republicans, and I do not automatically rubber-stamp my support of initiatives just because they come from Democrats. I am speaking in the first person here, but believe that what I wrote applies to many other in this country (and beyond), and on this list. Why were there not more protests over Kosovo? I honestly don't know. Perhaps it was because the engagement was seen, rightly or wrongly, as being more limited overall in terms of troops and casualties (I don't recall that conflict being presented to the American public as an all-out "war," as this one has). Perhaps it was because, rightly or wrongly, there was a perceived greater humanitarian component to even our military assistance there that was more palatable to those on the left. Perhaps it was because, again rightly or wrongly, that intervention was seen as dousing a fire that was already blazing wildly out of control in terms of casualties among citizens of the countries involved. I am not agreeing with all of these positions; I am simply stating that others may have found any or all of them convincing. It is possible that the situation in Iraq today is more similar to that in Bosnia/Kosovo in the '90's, and if that is so, then perhaps those similarities do need to be thoroughly explored by the press. In the meantime: yes, we on the left have been selective about which wars we've protested (although some, of course, have consistently opposed all war). But THERE ARE REASONS, political and philosophical, for the differences! And those reasons may vary from person to person, group to group, but they are there. Kakki, except for the fact that his policies during that time regarding both Bosnia/Kosovo and Iraq of course make him fair game for any serious political discussion here about those countries and regions, this really isn't about Bill Clinton. Specifically, it isn't about the left's unwavering and unquestioning support for him, a notion that I sense--again, rightly or wrongly--is behind quite a bit of your post. In any event, like Elvis, Bill Clinton has left the building. Give it up. He's gone. Mary. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 06:58:43 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: war protests Kosovo njc But how does one, in his defense, provide proof of something that doesn't exist - what is the saying - proving a negative? It doesn't matter - truth has a way of eventually surfacing. Hmm? Is this about George W. or Saddam? Here's a humorous link on Iraq's task which is to also "prove a negative" http://www.worldnewsstand.net/2002/article/11-25.htm Jenny Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 07:03:45 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: RE: Best CD's of 2002 NJC Gigi was also on heavy rotation in my house Michael. Another CD I'd like to add to the best of 2002 list is Luciana Souza - Duets. Brazilian music - just a vocalist and exquisite guitar. Jenny - --- michael o'malley wrote: > Well I thought I'd chime in with a list of CD's that > we played with great > pleasure and frequency over the past year: > > In no particular order - > > Gigi - Ethiopian diva doing world-fusion dub, jazz, > funk, afro-asiatic pop, > with appearances by Wayne Shorter and Herbie > Hancock, among others. > > Susie Arioli Swing Band - Pennies From Heaven. > Montreal swing trio doing > lovely, pared-down jazzy renditions of old > standards. > > Lila Downs - Border (La Linea). Stunning political > pop from a great Mexican > diva > > Bia -Sources. Gentle Franco-Quebecoise bossa-nova > ballads > > Susanna Baca - Luaka Bop - Heart-rending ballads > from the great voice of black > Peru. > > Karrin Allyson - In Blue. Is Karrin the next great > chanteuse from the USA? > > Suba - Tributo. Posthumous electro-bossa tribute > album to a famed Brazilian > music producer. > > Coral Egan and Alex Cattaneo - The Path of Least > Resistance. Debut album from > a haunting and lovely Montreal jazz duo. > > Michael in Quebec Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:32:02 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: war protests Kosovo njc In a message dated 17/01/2003 15:00:26 GMT Standard Time, jrgoodspeed@yahoo.com writes: > But how does one, in his defense, provide > proof of something that doesn't exist - what is the > saying - proving a negative? It doesn't matter - > truth has a way of eventually surfacing. > > Hmm? Is this about George W. or Saddam? > > Here's a humorous link on Iraq's task which is to also > "prove a negative" > > http://www.worldnewsstand.net/2002/article/11-25.htm > > This makes the point admirably, Jenny. It never ceases to amaze me that so many people in the USA (and, let's not forget, here in the UK too) are seemingly totally incapable of seeing things from the point of view of people in other nations and places. There is an unwillingness to recognise that the arguments used here by "us" to demonise "them" are really very similar to the arguments used by "them" to demonise "us". The assumption is that "we" are right and any suggestion to the contrary is to be brushed aside like an inconvenient hair on the collar. That is why that email spoof about the task force sent in to the "troubled north American country" USA to help them achieve democracy was so spot-on. If anyone wants to get into the heads of the many people around the world who are less than enamoured of "America" (and all the many things that means) and, crucially, to know WHY, one place to start is a book called Why Do People Hate America? by Ziauddin Sardar and Merryl Wyn Davies. Azeem in London NP: Duke Pearson - Bags Groove ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 07:50:39 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: (njc) Paul? You're back? YAY!! Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 07:53:26 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Just war (NJC) > However, I have to ask - why are we not attacking Saudia Arabia? > Why not? They don't have a democracy, they treat women like shit, > 8 of the 9 terrorist from 9/11 were from Saudi Arabia? Why not them? In a word? OIL. But you knew that already. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:11:34 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Antiwar groups NJC, PC Kakki wrote: > And as the one who mentioned ANSWER I did not mean to imply that ALL > antiwar groups were Marxist/Socialist. Bit ANSWER and it's main > affiliates ARE the prime organizers and activists in the movement. And if they are Marxist/Socialist, this is entirely bad? We have a number of Socialists on this list, possibly Communists as well. History has shown that Marxism works only in theory, but there's no harm in continuing to believe that it *could* work. Socialism and Communism do not automatically equal "evil," regardless of how hard U.S. politicians and corporations have tried (and continue to try) to make us believe that. (I can remember being a youngster in the 1960s, when no one bothered to explain Communism to me; rather, they just spit out the word "Communist" as if they were saying "Satan.") There are a lot of thing wrong with Capitalism, too, but I won't even begin to "go there" right now, as it's another huge can of worms. But please consider this: "our" way is not the only "right" way. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:20:53 -0800 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Intrepid NAMM Warriors (NJC) Gosh, sorry to interrupt the politics, but wanted to bring you a quick report from the NAMM show in Anaheim. I picked up Paz Man at John Wayne (where it seemed every other person was carrying an instrument case) and we boogied up to the convention center, where Paz once again proved that he knows EVERYONE in the music business. After an hour or so of looking at electronic equipment about whose function I remain clueless we split up and I went off in search of acoustic music. I saw Kakki's pal Doug MacLeod playing some mean blues in the National Resophonic booth then went up to the Taylor Guitars suite to see my pal Andy Robinson and caught a nice set there by Christopher Shaw and Dan Crary. I figured I should check out the Martin booth (booth being somewhat of a misnomer for something that has more square footage than my condo) and bumped (almost literally) into Graham Nash. Willy was just hanging out and seemed friendly and approachable, but of course being English *I* couldn't just go up and say hello. :) I figured that if Paz were there he would promptly invite GN out for dinner and we'd all end up at Joni's house or something, so I called him on his cell phone, to no avail. I had to content myself with shooting some (hopefully) discrete photos of GN. Eventually teaming up with Paz again, we went down to the Collings Guitar booth where he scored us some tickets for a concert tonight with Roger McGuinn, Chris Hillman & Herb Pederson and the amazing Waybacks. Hopefully Kakki will be joining us for that. We met up with Michele and Paz took us out for a great Japanese dinner - how come he knows more restaurants in Orange County than I do??? I should point out that the NAMM badge that Paz secured for me was in the name of Julius Mills...I know there's a joke in there somewhere, but I am WAY too bleary eyed to pull it out right now... Best to all, and you may now resume your political discussions (if you must).... :) - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:33:14 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Just war (NJC) (PC) Hi Mike, According to just war theory, I think it would be regarded as a pragmatic and correct decision, if you stayed away from a war you had no chance of winning. Because if a government or group of generals went into a war they believed they couldn't win, they'd be risking the lives of their soldiers for no gain. This would be immoral, and the war would therefore not be just. For a war to be just, you have to be fair to your own side, as well as the other side. Sarah At 9:54 AM +0100 01/17/2003, mike pritchard wrote: >I was intrigued to see that 'having a reasonable chance of success' >is one of the conditions of a 'just war'. My question is: if all >the other conditions were in place and if, in contrast, one's >military forces had an *unreasonable* chance of success, would this >make it an *unjust war*, and would the failure to go to war in this >circumstance be cowardly and immoral or merely pragmatic? > >mike in barcelona ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 17:37:16 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: re just war NJC PC Susan said >>It also seems we have no respect for separation of church and state as we seem intent on liberating states/countries that are heavily based on religion. << And talking of church and state, I read today that the Vatican has issued an 18 page vademecum containing certain instructions about how Catholic politicians should act and vote. It expressly forbids them to support abortion, euthanasia and homosexual marriage. It also opposes common law marriages which it claims 'should not be considered to have legal recognition or be considered juridically equal to church-blessed marriages' (my approx translation). There must be more, given the 18 pages but you get the drift. mike in barcelona NPIMH ...you get witch hunts and wars when church and state hold hands... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 11:41:40 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Intrepid NAMM Warriors (NJC) In a message dated 1/17/03 11:22:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, steve@psitech.com writes: > we went down to the Collings > Guitar booth where he scored us some tickets for a concert tonight > with Roger McGuinn, Boy, Roger sure gets around. Last night he was in Orlando for the grand opening of the new Hard Rock Live "Vault" along with a bunch of other musicians. Thanks for the NAMM update Steve. Tell all the west coast gang howdy. Jimmy np: Kangaroo Kooters "Slow Down" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:46:52 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Just war (NJC) (PC) Sarah asked: > Following that argument, you would have respected Germany's right to > elect Adolf Hitler, with all the consequences thereof, and you would > have condemned any other nation that tried to interfere with what the > Germans (let's face it, the Germans, not just Hitler) were doing to > the Jews, the gays, the mentally ill, the physically disabled, the > dissenters, the academics? Of course, not. However ... > But after all the analysis, one thing stood out, and that was that > Hitler was a monster, that he was doing terrible things to his people > and the people of neighbouring countries, and that he would continue > doing them unless stopped by force. It was this moral clarity that > made that war just. Hitler invaded Poland in 1939. After that invasion, the U.S. became "involved," but only to the extent that it approved the sell of arms to France and Britain. The U.S. was still trying to remain neutral. It wasn't until December 7, 1941, that the U.S. "awoke" (ah, that "sleeping giant," how poetic) and became truly involved in WWII. "But after all the analysis, ..." The analysis took more than two years?? During those two years plus we sat back and essentially did NOTHING about the systematic killing of Jews, gays, the mentally ill, the physically disabled, dissenters and academics. There is evidence that we knew damn well what was happening over there, but we didn't care. So please don't try to paint the U.S. as the world's hero. The U.S. has always looked out for its own interests first, and has always been quite choosy about who it decides to protect or liberate. Money is our first consideration, and human rights -- at least in other countries -- is secondary at best. Lori, a U.S. military veteran (10+ years), thinking more and more these days about finding somewhere ELSE to call home ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:02:07 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: The True Bush Agenda In Iraq (NJC) Kent, or Avusblue, or whoever you are ... Thank you. Thank you SO much for your intelligent post. You seem to be quite well-informed, and I believe you've hit the nail squarely on its head. You're my hero for today. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:06:47 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: re just war NJC PC mike wrote: And talking of church and state, I read today that the Vatican has issued an 18 page vademecum containing certain instructions about how Catholic politicians should act and vote. It expressly forbids them to support abortion, euthanasia and homosexual marriage. It also opposes common law marriages which it claims 'should not be considered to have legal recognition or be considered juridically equal to church-blessed marriages' (my approx translation). There must be more, given the 18 pages but you get the drift. oh how generous of them. oh how ironic. Mags, not amused. You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:09:23 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: (NJC) Speaking of gun control ... > (as opposed to the gun control threads where several major > brushfires and flamings raged). Let's start a new flame war ... ; ) What do y'all think of the lawsuit just filed against Bushmaster (the maker of the sniper rifle that was used in the DC-area attacks) and the store who sold or lost that weapon? http://europe.cnn.com/2003/LAW/01/16/sniper.lawsuit/ Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 11:04:50 -0600 From: "Cynthia Vickery" Subject: Re: Just war (NJC) (PC) Lori said: <> absolutely. and worse. we absolutely knew what was happening, and closed our eyes to it. also, see http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/stlouis.html the shameful truth is that we, as a country, protect people who can help us. period. cindy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:13:49 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: oops!Re: Bush lies--who lies? NJC, PC > dyeing because of him. > > > yes they dye thesleves blue1 Of course I emant dying. Those damn Smurfs!!!! (Just kidding, Bob.) Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:26:34 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #16/Political information on Joni only digest - NJC Andrea, With all due respect, the JMDL as a whole settled this argument many years ago with the request for the addition of the "NJC" (for No Joni Content) tag to posts that contain ... well, no Joni content. Lately we've seen additional tags as well: "PC" (Political Content) and "RC" (Religious Content), although I believe the only tag that filters posts is NJC (Les, please correct me if I'm wrong). Occasionally people (usually in a fit of passion or pique or both) omit the NJC tag, but it's almost never on purpose. In fact, we quite often see apologies for omitting the tag. Other than that, the Joni Mitchell Discussion List is unmoderated. I personally took a poll about 5 years ago, and that's the way most subscribers preferred it. We'll all try to do better with using the NJC tag, which should cut down on the non-Joni stuff you receive on the Joni-only list or digest. But please understand that we're only human, fumbling (towards esctasy?) and flailing about, and we're gonna make occasional mistakes. So (again with all due respect, because you know I think you're wonderful) ... please, relax. Really, the "problem" (if there really is one) is that we DO have a clue, about so much more than just Joni. : ) And there's no better place than here, with our friends of spirit, to discuss everything in the world. Lori > I purposely switched to the joni only list because I was tired of > the lengthly rantings on the political state of the world, primarily > Iraq. I am not a member of this list to discuss politics or read > about them. > Give it a rest and get a clue. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:42:24 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: opposition to war (njc) pc > My sister works for General Dynamics/ Electric Boat. > Apparently, of everyone she works with, only one person > (a secretary btw) thinks the war is a good idea. I find > that really interesting. Anne, thanks for sharing that info. It IS very interesting! Especially since General Dynamics/Electric Boat (a customer of my company, which is a commercial real estate firm) could make a LOT of money if the U.S. goes to war with Iraq. (In theory, my company could make a lot of money if GD/EB expands due to military requirements.) Hmm. More military people believing (knowing) that this impending war is a bad idea. People who could get richer believing (knowing). Maybe there IS hope, afterall. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:44:42 -0500 From: Patti Witten Subject: ATT Jonatha fans-- Carson Daley Jan. 21 ATT Jonatha fans... Patti - -- Patti Witten, Acoustic-Rock http://pattiwitten.com FA, AMA, Indiegrrl, JPF, I-Town Records stream the new CD "Sycamore Tryst" http://sycamoretryst.com - ---------- From: "Jonatha Brooke News" Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:05:33 -0800 To: (Jonatha Brooke News) Subject: Jonatha on Last Call with Carson Daley Jan. 21 Hi Everyone: Don't miss Jonatha singing with Duncan Sheik on the NBC TV program 'Last Call with Carson Daley' airing late Tuesday night, January 21st (okay, technically Wed. morning - it airs after Conan O'Brien) - check your local listings for exact air time. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #37 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)