From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #32 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, January 15 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 032 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today in History: January 15 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Today's Library Links: January 15 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] an old tape of Joni ["Michael" ] Re: ** NEW TIME ** Joni's PBS SPECIAL: April 2nd, 2003 [colin ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #14/ PBS American Master's program [Aerchak@aol] More details on Joni & Graham at the Aperture Foundation [Deb Messling ] Re: 2002 Fav's NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: an old tape of Joni [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: ** NEW TIME ** Joni's PBS SPECIAL: April 2nd, 2003 [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Truly madly deeply njc ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: Outdoors Music njc [Mags N Brei ] Joni/JT Tape of BBC Concert 1970 [Jason Wong ] Re: Truly madly deeply njc ["kasey simpson" ] grief njc [Mags N Brei ] Re: grief njc [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Bush Lies - who lies? (njc) (pc) ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Truly madly deeply njc ["Lucy Hone" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 03:01:51 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: January 15 1989: Joni presented an award at the NAACP Awards Show. - ---- For a comprehensive reference to Joni's appearances, consult Joni Mitchell ~ A Chronology of Appearances: http://www.jonimitchell.com/appearances.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 03:01:51 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: January 15 On January 15 the following items were published: 1976: "A Summer Garden of Verses" - Rolling Stone (Review - Album, with photographs) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=259 1976: "Knockin' on Hurricane's Door" - Rolling Stone (Review - Concert, with photographs) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=299 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 19:39:24 +1000 From: "Michael" Subject: an old tape of Joni Hi All I have come into possession of a tape of Joni. It is a concert from 1970 with James Taylor. The tracks Just Joni That Song About Midway The Gallery A song I dont know... The Keeper Of The Inn? River (piano) My Old Man (piano) Another I dont Know....The Priest sat in the airport bar.... Carrie (appalacian dulcimer) with a great description about the caves area. With James A Case Of You California He Played Real Good For Free(James,guit, vocals Joni,piano) The Circle Game(James,guit,vocals Joni,guit,vocals) More still... I haven't listened to it all My point being...if this concert is not in circulation I will do it up on CD and send it of to whoever might distribute it. An interesting intro to Circle Game where Joni describes how she wrote this song for Neil Young and all of us as well Cheers Michael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:22:22 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: ** NEW TIME ** Joni's PBS SPECIAL: April 2nd, 2003 most vcrs come with both NTSC and PAL here in the UK. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:54:03 -0000 From: "Chris Marshall" Subject: RE: ** NEW TIME ** Joni's PBS SPECIAL: April 2nd, 2003 [I've left this without an NJC tag, just in case this info is useful to any UK/Europe Joni-onlies who are considering getting this tape] Colin wrote: > most vcrs come with both NTSC and PAL here in the UK. True, unless you buy a really cheap one, in which case they're mostly PAL only. And beware, to get NTSC *and* stereo will cost you more money. Getting a dual-standard VCR that does PAL in stereo but NTSC in mono is really frustrating... when all you bought it for was to watch S&L. Ask me how I know... However, it's not as simple as just buying the right sort of NTSC capable VCR. 'scuse me if I start teaching people to suck eggs, but a bit of background is useful. US TV == 525 lines, 60 Hz refresh rate giving 30 frames/sec NTSC (Never Twice the Same Colour :) to encode the colours UK TV == 625 lines, 50 Hz refresh rate giving 25 frames/sec PAL (Phase Alternate Line) to encode the colours So UK (and european TV) trades off a few frames per second against increased vertical resolution, or detail. This isn't a problem for most people since the phosphor used in most TVs is high enough persistence (i.e. it glows for a bit once the electron beam in the tube has moved past it) that we don't tend to notice 50Hz flicker. Here's the rub: NTSC videotapes are encoded with NTSC colour, 525 lines and 60Hz framerate. NTSC capable VCRs, in the main, just convert the colour, *but leave the other stuff alone*. The implication is, therefore, that your TV set has to be able to cope with 525 lines and 60Hz - something alien for europe and the UK. Modern sets (rule of thumb: with SCART sockets on the back) will probably do this. Older sets (rule of thumb: phono or BNC sockets for video input) may well not deal with it. So check first, maybe by renting an NTSC capable VCR for a time, that your TV can cope. If you rent such a VCR and the TV doesn't cope, the odds are you can just say "this kit doesn't work with mine" and terminate the rental. That way you don't end up out of pocket. Hope this is useful. - --Chris ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 06:46:29 EST From: Aerchak@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #14 posting about seeing Joni prior to 1998 When I said it seems hardly anyone has seen Joni prior to 1998, I was referring to the "Blondes in the Bleachers" section on the JMDL site. There's only a handful of shows listed prior to '98, that is what I meant by "at least no one has posted about it." Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:08:20 +0200 From: Ron Greer Subject: bobfans njc hi >>>kate wrote >>>>we were watching a dylan dvd last week (i forget the name right now) of his early early days & i was struck by the fact that dylan had a very good quality of voice back then...jeff thinks his motorcycle accident did some damage to his voice somehow...<<<<<< imho i have a very early boot of bobs (folk rogue - newport 1964/65) & they are just plain hilarious. yodelling away on "all i really want to do - ooo - ooo - - ooo - ooo oo" i think he inspired whitney on "i will always love you" anyhow - his voice improved & peaked on "blood on the tracks" & "desire" (my personal favourite). i also tend to prefer the "new york sessions - blood on the tracks" to the official release - truly great version of tangled up in blue.. ron ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 07:10:42 EST From: Aerchak@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #14/ PBS American Master's program I don't think we have to panic yet as it is only January! Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 07:26:13 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: More details on Joni & Graham at the Aperture Foundation From a gossip column in today's NY Times: Life Used to Be So Hard Once upon a time in America, there was a golden rock 'n' roll couple, JONI MITCHELL and GRAHAM NASH, who were the J.LO and BEN of their time. They worked and lived together, he wrote a song about the house they shared ("Our House") they broke up, she dated JAMES TAYLOR. Last week, the Aperture Foundation awarded its Alfred Stieglitz Award for creative amateur photography to Mr. Nash, and Ms. Mitchell presented the award. In his acceptance speech, Mr. Nash, who grew up in England, spoke of being given his first camera at age 10 by his father. He drew gasps from the crowd when he said that the camera was stolen and that his father, refusing to divulge the man who sold it to him, went to jail. "In a way, I'm living for my dad," Mr. Nash said later. "When Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young played Wembley Stadium, in 1974, the first thing I did was kick a ball on the field. His biggest ambition was to go from Manchester to London to watch the Cup finals, and he never made it. I put my mother in the royal box and went down on the field, kicking a ball around for my dad." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.443 / Virus Database: 248 - Release Date: 1/10/03 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:19:53 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: an old tape of Joni Michael, This is Joni and James 1970 concert on BBC. It well prized by both Joni and James Talor fans, especially for its quality. Here are the details: Joni Mitchell (BBC concert with James Taylor) 1970 In Concert Paris Cinema London, England / October 29, 1970 Michael wrote: > Hi All > I have come into possession of a tape of Joni. It is a concert from 1970 > with James Taylor. > > The tracks > > Just Joni > > That Song About Midway > The Gallery > A song I dont know... The Keeper Of The Inn? > River (piano) > My Old Man (piano) > Another I dont Know....The Priest sat in the airport bar.... > Carrie (appalacian dulcimer) > with a great description about the caves area. > > With James > > A Case Of You > California > He Played Real Good For Free(James,guit, vocals Joni,piano) > The Circle Game(James,guit,vocals Joni,guit,vocals) > More still... I haven't listened to it all > > My point being...if this concert is not in circulation I will do it up on CD > and send it of to whoever might distribute it. > > An interesting intro to Circle Game where Joni describes how she wrote this > song for Neil Young and all of us as well > > Cheers > Michael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:36:18 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: 2002 Fav's NJC In a message dated 1/14/2003 11:32:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, kate@katebennett.com writes: > hold the phone...how can someone who loves tom waits not > love greg brown?! Dunno. I'm weird, I guess. I never heard much of a similarity between the two. Bob NP: Dylan & The Band, "I Shall Be Released" 1/14/74 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:39:31 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: an old tape of Joni In a message dated 1/15/2003 4:39:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, michael.cathyb@optusnet.com.au writes: > I have come into possession of a tape of Joni. It is a > concert from 1970 > with James Taylor. Thanks for the offer, Michael...that one's made the rounds pretty good. Besides the initial tape tree way back when, it's been re-mastered to CD a couple different times by a couple different folks. A great recording to be sure, not to be missed. Essential, in fact. Bob NP: Dylan & The Band, "Up On Cripple Creek" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:39:50 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: ** NEW TIME ** Joni's PBS SPECIAL: April 2nd, 2003 I'm going to record it in S-VHS if that helps. Jerry "Jim L'Hommedieu (Lama)" wrote: > Hold the presses! The lead story: > > The PBS website says that Joni's edition in the American Masters Series has > been moved up from May to April 2nd, 2003. > > I have 2 VHS Hi-Fi VCRs. I'll be taping it, of course, so if someone wants > a dub, send a blank. The tapes I make are only compatible with machines > that can read a NTSC VHS tape. These are commonly found in Canada and the > USA. John van Tiel reported that compatible, dual-standard VCRs are > available in the Netherlands. Dunno if NZ uses the PAL (UK) format or ours. > > Who's in? > > Lama > > ps, Write me off-list for my snail mail address. > > Reference: > http://www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/database/mitchell_j_homepage.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 06:28:22 -0800 (PST) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: Re: Bush Lies - who lies? (njc) (pc) Sarah asked: To everyone who thinks we shouldn't go to war against Saddam - please explain how else you would get rid of him, or why he should be allowed to stay in power. Hi Sarah. This is a complex question - and the answer is even more so. I think that there are several factors at work in Iraq and that even a military victory by U.N. forces wouldn't bring about lasting, positive change in Iraq. In order to start any military action, the U.N. would have to pull out the inspectors. After trying for so long to get inside, it would seem counterproductive to just pack up and leave. I don't think Saddam should be in power. But, given the global picture, as I understand it, I don't understand why the focus is on this one country. (Although, as a nation, the U.S. has found it convenient to demonize one entity: the Soviet Union, then Iran, and now Iraq.) To emphasize my point, I'll ask in what country has there been the largest loss of life as a result of religious conflict since 1990? (The answer is at the end of this email.) Honestly, I don't know how to deal with the broad lack of reverence in religious fanaticism that breeds such heated conflict. And I also don't see how adherents to the strict sharia code of justice in Islam can coexist peacefully with the Western world. I do know that bombing and killing only perpetuates hate and that understanding leads to reverence, which leads to peace. I'm not sure I really answered your question, but I hope you found what I said at least thought provoking. lots of love Anne the answer: Sudan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 16:36:22 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Outdoors Music, sjc > From: "Lucy Hone" > Subject: Best Albums of 2002 and tales of music outdoors sjc > > Back to Joni and me. When Walkmans first came out I bought one (and lived > off beans on toast for a month after) I had a tape of Blue and went off > to a favourite hill to sit and submerge myself in the scenery and some > class music... > > Ah well...... I have one more lovely tale to tell of music enjoyed > outdoors. > > In 2000 I went skiing in Val Thorens with a friend of mine. Hey Lucy, Just like you I was lucky to go skiing this winter (hadn't done it in 25 years) and brought a walkman on the slopes. I'd be interested in hearing other JMDLers' selection of Outdoors Music. Here is mine: 1) Music for Skiing * Beatles (white album acoustic demos) * Lennon x2 * Los Lobos x2 * Little Feat * U2 live * Ryan Adams * Peter Green (his latest Time Traders is quite psychedelic at times, Peter is amazingly back in shape) * Jefferson Starship (love that 2001 live with Paul Kantner, Marty Balin and newcomers Diana Mangana on vocals and Slick Aguilar on guitar) * Rhino Atlantic Remasters (50 classics from Ray Charles to Sam & Dave, etc) Wish I had taken along: Rolling Stones, Hendrix. PS: It's OK to sing while skiing, you don't stay in one place long enough to bother anyone. 2) Summer's Outdoors Music: here are the highlights of last summer's selection. * Zero/Steve Kimock * Grateful Dead (much more interesting outdoors than indoors IMO, like it was meant for it) * Big Bill Broonzy * America live * Pat Metheny with Jaco Pastorius * Joni of course (Second Fret Sets) Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 11:34:03 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Truly madly deeply njc >What I wanted to see, was: how do you REALLY cope with >grief? When it really keeps hurting without surprise solutions, when you >don't have a deus ex machine hopping along? >Grief is a very personal experience. You cannot "see" what grief is like >on a film. My closest grief experience was on the death of my mother in >May 2000. her death was unexpected as she was carried away by some >unexpected recurrence of a medical problem (not cancer) and she died..... >she just died... 12 days start to finish and she was gone. Its like being >in a glass tunnel. You are in there shouting and banging the walls that >"hey! my mother, my poet, my artist, my wonderfully batty and very >irritable mother has died.. Hey!" bang bang bang on the walls and all the >time the world just goes on moving past you and you think you wont ever >re-join the days of other beings. Its like being stuck in treacle and you >just cannot move for the shock of it. "I walked a mile with gladness she chattered all the way but left me none the wiser for all she had to say I walked a mile with sorrow and ne'er a word said she But oh, the things I learned from her when sorrow walked with me" My sister died suddenly three years ago. She walked into the emergency room..and died two hours later. She was young, 47..fit..a marathon runner (ran and completed thirty in her life) the brightest star in my life!. Yes..loved Joni.( introduced me to Joni..took me to a concert back in 1976) Autopsy showed nothing. Getting on that plane and going to California was surreal. Why.. I thought, is the world going on? Why are people laughing? Why are fucking people laughing?!!! When I would see runners on the street sometimes I would have to turn and look away. It hurt too much! She loved running so much it was in her blood..her release..why can't she still be out there doing her thing? Why? SO yes..greif is a very personal thing. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences. Bree >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:40:57 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: Outdoors Music njc Laurent wrote in reply to Lucy's post: <<>> in my running days i used to take a walkman along with a mix of music which started with All I Want is You - U2 then moved into - Two Step and Crash into Me - Dave Matthews Band cant recall the rest at the moment (tape is in the car) .. Im sure you get the idea. very motivating and thought provoking as Im sure all u2/dmb fans can attest to. now that i'm walking for fitness...i just take in the natural sounds of the sand and the sea. mellow mags ;-) You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:02:28 -0800 (PST) From: Jason Wong Subject: Joni/JT Tape of BBC Concert 1970 Hi All, Happy New Year. I was wondering if anyone could help me get a copy from an old tape tree. I have a really old tape of the Joni/James Taylor BBC concert and desparately want to replace it. I made it from a friend in the late 80's and it is completely worn out. Listening to that version of "California" is my absolute favorite. If anyone could help me out, I'd gladly provide tapes, CDs, or whatever else was needed. My email is jaywong@yahoo.com. Cheers, Jason Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 12:25:39 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Re: Truly madly deeply njc Are you trying to make me cry? Well you did a good job of it! Kasey My sister died suddenly three years ago. She walked into the emergency room..and died two hours later. She was young, 47..fit..a marathon runner (ran and completed thirty in her life) the brightest star in my life!. Yes..loved Joni.( introduced me to Joni..took me to a concert back in 1976) Autopsy showed nothing. Getting on that plane and going to California was surreal. Why.. I thought, is the world going on? Why are people laughing? Why are fucking people laughing?!!! When I would see runners on the street sometimes I would have to turn and look away. It hurt too much! She loved running so much it was in her blood..her release..why can't she still be out there doing her thing? Why? SO yes..greif is a very personal thing. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences. Bree >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virusGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:37:42 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: grief njc my apologies to anyone who is bothered by text being left on a reply, however, i wanted to honour the experiences of the writers in this instance by leaving their words right where they are. i am intrigued by this subject and while reading about grief/dying/death i am compelled to share some thoughts written by a Canadian physician, Dr.Robert Buckman on grief: "grief is all about letting go and saying goodbye. losing someone close to us hurts a lot. it hurts because of the ties we make with that person. " those ties are what getting close to someone is all about. generally, we only let a few people get that close to us. when we lose them or realize we might lose them, it is those ties that cause us pain. grieving normally reduces the hurt". "grieving is a continuous process. it is continuous just as the transition a patient makes from being healthy to facing the end of life is continuous. As with accepting bad news, people in grief go backwards and forwards, as emotions come and go in waves. " some of my thoughts: coping with grief is a very personal, individual journey. how sad that some of us feel so alone when confronting this most painful part of the circle of life. death is something that is not often talked about openly in my experience. it is as though death is not a part of being alive. as if death is something that happens to everyone else, but not 'me'. i feel privileged that in my life i was able to travel very closely to my father's journey toward his death which took only two weeks from diagnosis to the moment when he uttered his last breath in the early hours of the morning. my youngest brother mark stayed with him overnight in answer to a premonition that he was going to die, that night. i heard the phone ring. the news entered my left ear at 4:30 that thursday morning. like a robot, i got dressed, shaking like a leaf. i was driven to the hospital. we ran every red light in our path. i walked toward the hospital. i felt as if i had left my body. shock does that. i know about shock. my old friend. it protects me from the hurt. from the reality of what i am about to face when i walk into that hospital room and see my own father lying there, still. no longer fighting for his life. his body has given in. he has stopped moving, complete. his body silent. it took me a very long time to believe that he was really gone and yet many times before he died, i used to wake in the middle of the night frightened by the very real dreams of what his death would feel like. and it felt just like that. like a heavy steel door slamming shut and that horrible echo resounding inside my head, again and again until finally, one day i noticed it had faded into the distance beyond my ability to hear it ever again. i miss my dad still, very much so. grief does indeed come and go in waves, oceans of waves. mags. Bree Mcdonough wrote:>What I wanted to see, was: how do you REALLY cope with >grief? When it really keeps hurting without surprise solutions, when you >don't have a deus ex machine hopping along? >Grief is a very personal experience. You cannot "see" what grief is like >on a film. My closest grief experience was on the death of my mother in >May 2000. her death was unexpected as she was carried away by some >unexpected recurrence of a medical problem (not cancer) and she died..... >she just died... 12 days start to finish and she was gone. Its like being >in a glass tunnel. You are in there shouting and banging the walls that >"hey! my mother, my poet, my artist, my wonderfully batty and very >irritable mother has died.. Hey!" bang bang bang on the walls and all the >time the world just goes on moving past you and you think you wont ever >re-join the days of other beings. Its like being stuck in treacle and you >just cannot move for the shock of it. "I walked a mile with gladness she chattered all the way but left me none the wiser for all she had to say I walked a mile with sorrow and ne'er a word said she But oh, the things I learned from her when sorrow walked with me" My sister died suddenly three years ago. She walked into the emergency room..and died two hours later. She was young, 47..fit..a marathon runner (ran and completed thirty in her life) the brightest star in my life!. Yes..loved Joni.( introduced me to Joni..took me to a concert back in 1976) Autopsy showed nothing. Getting on that plane and going to California was surreal. Why.. I thought, is the world going on? Why are people laughing? Why are fucking people laughing?!!! When I would see runners on the street sometimes I would have to turn and look away. It hurt too much! She loved running so much it was in her blood..her release..why can't she still be out there doing her thing? Why? SO yes..greif is a very personal thing. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences. Bree >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:23:09 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: grief njc When I was seeing a therapist a couple of years ago, she told me that as a rule of thumb, for "each" year someone was a part of your life, it takes the same number of months for the grieving process. i.e. If you and your spouse or partner were together for 24 years, you could expect to be grieving for 24 months. This is not to say that 2 years later you would still be crying your eyes out constantly. It means that 2 years from now, you could see something that reminded you of that person and it would be perfectly natural for you to start crying. It made sense to me, but it was her rule of thumb, not mine. Like you said Mags, grief is a personal journey. Jimmy np Puddle of Mudd "Blurry" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:25:44 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Bush Lies - who lies? (njc) (pc) > Lori, you might be interested to know that the person who developed > Saddam Hussein's germ warfare capability is a woman. ;-) That IS interesting, Sarah! What's her name? > To everyone who thinks we shouldn't go to war against Saddam - please > explain how else you would get rid of him, or why he should be > allowed to stay in power. I'll answer your questions in reverse order, Sarah. First, who appointed us "planet police," with the power to decide who should and should not be running countries? The majority of Iraq's citizens at least SEEM to respect and revere Saddam. This morning on NPR there was a story about the increase of gun sales to "ordinary" Iraqis, and a man being interviewed said Iraqis would defend their country, their families, their honor, and Saddam. Just as WE would defend Bush because he is our President (whether or not we like him or the job he's doing). Second, IF Saddam must be removed from power -- for whatever reason -- why (other than its inepitude) can't the CIA send an assassin to take him out? This bullshit that we don't assassinate is just that: bullshit. Sending in thousands of troups is simply assassination on a massive scale. Bush is playing with a way bigger fire than he believes he is, because the rest of the Arab world is not going to stand by and do nothing while we march in and ... (I'll say it again) take the oil. Now will someone please tell me why we're not stomping our feet harder about North Korea's recent actions?? Are we afraid of North Korea, or of China, or is it because they don't have anything we want? Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 18:58:45 -0000 From: ReckersL@ebrd.com Subject: Truly madly deeply njc "Lucy Hone" (lucy_hone@hotmail.com) wrote: .... So to answer your query, we each have our own way that the death of someone special affects us. I hope, if your query is because of a personal situation, that you have the love and support of friends, as that is the key to recovery...looking forward, not back. Breathe and find someting small each day to be thankful for. Thanks very much, Lucy - also thanks to Colin for his message yesterday about "how to deal with grief". I just wanted to explain: I am not in that situation at the moment, I was not asking personally how I could deal with it (but your kindness is really appreciated), I was only making a point about a film, that I felt these questions were what the film first promised to deal with, but then I was let down because the answer was yet again the good old hollywood clichi that new love just turns up when you most need it, and I was just saying from experience: jolly nice if that happens, but just like with London buses they either don't turn up for ages, or they all turn up at once, or they are full and refuse to let you on, or take you in the wrong direction etc... so you'd better learn to walk or use a bike if you really want to get somewhere! Sorry if the comparison is a bit frivolous, but I think you know what I mean... And of course a lover does not need to die, they can disappear in so many different ways (ask Paul Simon!) but the grief can be equally overwhelming if you feel, like Juliet in the film, that you've just lost the best thing you ever had. I'm sure most of us have gone through that more than once, and there was a time when I really did not know how to let go - in fact, I did not want to let go, because I felt that would be a betrayal of the love, of everything I had felt before, and so like a true artist, I felt I kept suffering for my art, for my pure raw emotions. I kept the wound fresh, scratched off the scab, let it bleed for years... I now look back and wonder why I allowed anything, anybody to take such a large part of my life away. (I would still have the same reaction, but much much worse, like instant death, if I ever lost my children, but let's not go there now...) Sorry, I did not mean to go into this, again I apologise but I don't have the time to explain or discuss it properly, so I'd better shut up. I just wanted to say: I was disappointed that Truly Madly Deeply did not give us a better way out than the hopping man. But if it works for you, hey that's fine! Lots of love to you all, Lieve. _____________________________________________________________ This message may contain privileged information. If you have received this message by mistake, please keep it confidential and return it to the sender. Although we have taken steps to minimise the risk of transmitting software viruses, the EBRD accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by computer viruses and would advise you to carry out your own virus checks. The contents of this e-mail do not necessarily represent the views of the EBRD. ______________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:00:26 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Bush Lies - who lies? (njc) (pc) Lori, the woman who developed Saddam's germ warfare program is Dr. Rihab Taha, who has a PhD in plant toxins from East Anglia University is Norwich, England. She's developed enough poison gas to kill the world several times over, and this is only the amount she admitted to developing. From memory, I think she made enough anthrax to kill 10 billion people. I'll address your points separately, Lori: Lori wrote: >First, who appointed us "planet police," with the power to decide who >should and should not be running countries? The majority of Iraq's >citizens at least SEEM to respect and revere Saddam. This morning on >NPR there was a story about the increase of gun sales to "ordinary" >Iraqis, and a man being interviewed said Iraqis would defend their >country, their families, their honor, and Saddam. Just as WE would >defend Bush because he is our President (whether or not we like him or >the job he's doing). I don't agree that ordinary Iraqis support Saddam. All the evidence coming out of Iraq suggests that ordinary people are terrified of him and his circle. He rules by violence and terror. There is no free speech, freedom of association or any of the things we take for granted. The official state punishment (this is written into law) for criticizing him is to have your tongue pulled out. So naturally, people are going to say they'll defend him. My guess is they'll abandon him in droves as soon as the Americans turn up. This is a man who deliberately taught his son to become a psychopath, starting at the age of eight, by acquiring a sheep for him, taking it to an empty field, and showing him how to disembowel it, slowly over the course of an hour, so as to cause maximum pain without killing the animal. That son - Uday - now has his own torture chamber. Even Saddam has been shocked at Uday's behaviour (like when he strangled his father's food taster with his bare hands). Uday is well known for spotting women he likes in the street, ordering that they be brought to him, raping them and then killing their husbands if they object. >Lori wrote: >Second, IF Saddam must be removed from power -- for whatever reason -- >why (other than its inepitude) can't the CIA send an assassin to take >him out? This bullshit that we don't assassinate is just that: >bullshit. Sending in thousands of troups is simply assassination on a >massive scale. Bush is playing with a way bigger fire than he believes >he is, because the rest of the Arab world is not going to stand by and >do nothing while we march in and ... (I'll say it again) take the oil. The American Special Forces or British SAS would kill him if they could, but it's not as simple as that. You have to know where he is. You have to be able to get there undetected. You have to be able to overcome all his guards. Then you have to be able to get yourself out again. His circle is heavily fortified. The whole country is heavily fortified. Anyway, it's not just Saddam that US-UK want to get rid of, it's the whole Tikrit circle. No point in killing Saddam and letting Uday into power, who is arguably worse than his father. The whole extended family (and there are scores of them) need to be deposed, and another government must be installed, or there will be widespread bloodshed. The Americans are doing the responsible thing by invading. They are liberating the country. I believe the Arab world will do precisely as you say: stand by and do nothing. There will be terrorist attacks in future, but there are terrorist attacks already. >Lori wrote: >Now will someone please tell me why we're not stomping our feet harder >about North Korea's recent actions?? Are we afraid of North Korea, or >of China, or is it because they don't have anything we want? > Yes, it's in part because they are of little strategic importance and in part because yes, we are afraid of them because they already have a nuclear capability. This is why Iraq MUST be invaded before Saddam develops one. Lori, what would you do instead of invading? Economic sanctions haven't worked. They cause hardship to ordinary people, while leaving enough of the economy intact so that Saddam can develop more weapons. Assassination of scores of his clan isn't practical, and would in any event leave a power vacuum. What else if not an invasion? Finally, your point about America being the "planet police". The choice seems to be between America, or a United Nations that does nothing (and appoints Colonel Gadaffi as head of their human rights commission), or else let countries like Iraq, North Korea etc do whatever they want. Someone has to be planet policeman, it seems. Better America than any of the above, in my view. As to the oil: so what if America takes control of the oil? Better that than the current situation where an oil-rich country like Iraq is starving its people so that it can develop enough weapons to kill everyone on the planet many times over. It was Saddam who nationalized Iraq's oil. It can be de-nationalized and handed over to responsible companies and a democratic Iraqi government who will use the profits to rebuild the Iraqi economy. If this process is overseen by a government of the type offered by the Iraqi National Congress (democratic, secular, pluralist and with women's rights guaranteed), and if there is any success in running the country and the economy that way, I think the other oil-rich tyrannies in the Middle East (most notably Saudi Arabia) are going to start quaking in their boots, and so they should. Why are you so opposed to the possibility that democracy might spread throughout the Arab world? You know who is MOST opposed to this? The CIA! Anti-war campaigners are unwittingly supporting the CIA's position, which is precisely that talk of democracy is naive, de-stabilizing etc. Yes, it's naive, but it could work and the Iraqi people deserve the opportunity, as do the Arabs living under other dictatorships. Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:04:49 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Truly madly deeply njc In a message dated 1/15/2003 1:58:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, ReckersL@ebrd.com writes: > but just like with London buses they > either don't turn up for ages, or they all turn up at once, or they are full > and refuse to let you on, or take you in the wrong > direction etc... Or worse...there's no driver on the top! :~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:04:59 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Truly madly deeply njc In a message dated 1/15/2003 1:58:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, ReckersL@ebrd.com writes: > but just like with London buses they > either don't turn up for ages, or they all turn up at once, or they are full > and refuse to let you on, or take you in the wrong > direction etc... Or worse...there's no driver on the top! :~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 19:09:39 -0000 From: "Lucy Hone" Subject: SJC. Thanks and thanks and re grief and Truly Madly Deeply and the Parking God Hello all....I had no idea that there were so many lovely people out there who would take the time to read, let alone reply to my postings on the site, thank you so much. My mother was a wonderful person who also enjoyed Joni Mitchell but courtesy of me... She particularly liked "Both sides Now" and was in her own right a very brilliant writer and poet and artist and maddeningly batty too.... she introduced me to Haiku when I was 6 (1963!!!) and she won all sorts of prizes for them. One of the prize winners ended up being published on cards for sale in shops. She wrote it when my father was in the far east and she had waited all day in my grandparents house, as he had written to say that he would be phoning her ... it was their anniversary and we, at that time, had no phone. She literally did not move from the chair by the phone all day. Eventually the call came in and it lasted a total of about 2 and a half minutes. AFter she put the phone down she walked, with the stiffest back I have ever seen in my life, out of the room, up the stairs and we heard her crying and crying. the Haiku she wrote was "your voice when we speak accross the pain of distance flowers in my heart" We know little of separation in this day of texts and e-mails and mobile phones and video links and instant communication. The expression of emotion has become some fast forward gallop to make the biggest statement, exceed past limits, erase the creases other previous loves have left on us and on the person fixed in the glazed eye of current adoration!. There seems to exist some certainty that "another one will come along if this one does not work out" so words of affection can be devalued in their overuse. In this day of e-dating and wholesale "have-it-all-and-more" serial relationships I should love to see the art of courtly love restored so that even texting could transcend the "get ur coat u've pulled" form of address and some degree of thought return to our heads and hearts. Oh I must stop being so whimsical but wouldn't it be nice if thought always preceeded words?...... Please note demise of hotmail address, it was getting very sulky about the limit of mails and so I have switched to the virgin one who seems to be much more friendly!! Enjoy your days all of you and thank you again for the wonderful mails. Oh! before I go may I also pass onto you the parking god prayer... It only works if you really believe it will. AS you approach the parking area you hope to park in you have to say...aloud.....No muttering now and you really really hve to believe in it..... Dear and gracious parking god As parking god there be Let me find a parking space where I want it to be....... :-) Lucy Hone ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 15:13:11 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: The 100 songs that changed the world NJC According to Q Magazine, here's the top 10 songs that changed the world: 10. Do They Know Itbs Christmas? b Band Aid 9. Blue Monday b New Order 8. Walk This Way b Run DMC 7. Like A Rolling Stone b Bob Dylan 6. Strange Fruit b Billie Holiday 5. Smells Like Teen Spirit b Nirvana 4. Rapperbs Delight b Sugarhill Gang 3. God Save The Queen b The Sex Pistols 2. I Want To Hold Your Hand b The Beatles 1. Thatbs All Right b Elvis Presley Sorry that Joni didn't make the list, and I can't believe that "Woodstock" isn't on there. For a brief explanation of the top 10 and to see the rest of the list, go to : http://www.q4music.com/nav?page=q4music.now.page&fixture_page=281242& resource=281242 Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 12:14:39 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Bush Lies - who lies? (njc) (pc) Sarah, you make many good points, and it's obvious that you're well- informed. I'll admit to "shooting from the hip" and going with my gut feeling when it comes to these matters. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and opinions. I do take issue with this, though, along the same lines of asking why the U.S. should be the planet police: > Why are you so opposed to the possibility that democracy might spread > throughout the Arab world? It's awfully arrogant to think that everyone wants or should to live in a democracy. Just because it works for *us* doesn't mean it will work everywhere, and I'm still not convinced it's the best plan. (I lean toward Socialism.) > Yes, it's naive, but it could work and the Iraqi people deserve the > opportunity, as do the Arabs living under other dictatorships. An additional problem with this "deserved opportunity" is that the lines between "church" and "state" become so easily blurred. Next it will be suggested that everyone become a christian. Sure, it would be an easier and more peaceful world if everyone believed in the same things, but god, how boring. Personally, I don't think we've exhausted diplomacy yet. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 15:27:56 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: The 100 songs that changed the world NJC In a message dated 1/15/2003 3:13:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, FMYFL writes: > For a brief explanation of the top 10 and to see the rest > of the list, go to Thanks for sharing that link, Jimmy - an interesting concept and one can see that they put a LOT of effort in making it. Lots of those songs that I've never heard. Glad to see that YOUR personal favorite "Me So Horny" made the top 100! ;~) I do remember where I was when I heard some of those songs for the first time and thought it was unlike anything I'd heard before for whatever reason. Bob NP: Dylan, "Duncan & Brady" 2/13/02 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:38:27 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Bush Lies - who lies? (njc) (pc) Lori, I don't think it's arrogant to want democracy for everyone. It could be argued that it's arrogant to assume some people might not want to live in a democracy. There's nothing different about us. This is a not a case of us versus them. The Iraqi people want exactly the same things that we do. They want peace, security and freedom. This war MIGHT give it to them. What is certain is that Saddam Hussein won't. His rule has been a national tragedy for them, and we're only scraping the surface in knowing just how much of a tragedy, because we have to rely on people who have escaped for our information. I am sure that when Iraq is liberated, the stories we will hear will stun and horrify us, and we will all feel desperately ashamed that we didn't help the Iraqi people many years ago. Regarding Iraq and democratic values, Tony Blair told his party's annual conference a few weeks ago: "I've lost count of the number of supposedly intelligent people who've said to me: 'You don't understand the Serbs: they're very attached to Milosevic'. No, they weren't. 'The Afghans are different: they like religious extremism'. No, they didn't. 'The Iraqis don't have the same tradition of political freedom'. No, they don't, but I bet they'd like to." "Our values aren't Western values", Blair said. "They're human values and anywhere, anytime people are given the chance, they embrace them." Blair also said that a good test of what a country is like is whether: "people are trying to get into it, or trying to get out of it." I can't think of a single non-democratic country that has immigration problems i.e. a problem with people wanting to enter, rather than wanting to leave. It's not being suggested that the people of Iraq should become Christians. What is being suggested (by the Iraqi National Congress) is that the new Iraqi government be secular, pluralist and democratic. There IS no diplomacy with Saddam Hussein, Lori - really, none at all. His government lies and lies, and has been doing so for decades. He's had SCORES of chances. He really is a psychopath, a frightening man, and he does have weapons of mass destruction, according to every single knowledgeable source I have ever read or encountered. They also all agree that he will use them one day. He can't be left in power. Sarah At 12:14 PM -0800 01/15/2003, Lori Fye wrote: >It's awfully arrogant to think that everyone wants or should to live in >a democracy. Just because it works for *us* doesn't mean it will work >everywhere, and I'm still not convinced it's the best plan. (I lean >toward Socialism.) > >An additional problem with this "deserved opportunity" is that the >lines between "church" and "state" become so easily blurred. Next it >will be suggested that everyone become a christian. Sure, it would be >an easier and more peaceful world if everyone believed in the same >things, but god, how boring. > >Personally, I don't think we've exhausted diplomacy yet. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 11:56:18 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: 2002 Fav's NJC their voices are only similar in that they are both deep & growly...greg's being less growly...glad you like his songwriting though! >>Dunno. I'm weird, I guess. I never heard much of a similarity between the two.<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 20:59:53 -0000 From: "Lucy Hone" Subject: Re: Truly madly deeply njc Hi Lieve thank you for the letter and I really do think you make a pretty valid point about the whole thing of T M D. Nearer the point (maybe) about how grief affects people is to be found in WHAT DREAMS MAY COME... Its a very wierd sort of film and makes the point in the end that they can all only be happy because they are all dead and living in a picture world! But it still does not deal with the "how you deal with it..." I do so totally understand the > "I'm sure most of us have gone through that more than once, >and there was a time when I really did not know how to let go - in fact, I >did not want to let go, because I felt that would be a betrayal of the love, >of everything I had felt before, and so like a true artist, I felt I kept >suffering for my art, for my pure raw emotions. I kept the wound fresh, >scratched off the scab, let it bleed for years... I now look back and >wonder why I allowed anything, anybody to take such a large part of my life >away. " Oh boy do I recognise that......I write poetry and short stories (am girding myself for rejection time again!!!..any one know an agent? ) and find the best flow of words is when either in love or bereft... How come my muse is absent except at times of emotional flux? NOW...if I could only find a muse as reliable as the Parking God..... Have to go wine and a friend are calling.... Just finished playing.... "DONT FORGET ME" from By the way by the Red Hot Chilli Peppers.... Yessssss Light and life to all Lucy ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #32 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)