From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #21 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, January 10 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 021 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Bible, njc rc [colin ] re njc [vince ] Re: njc, rc, pc, humanism and animal rights [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: njc, rc, pc, humanism and animal rights [sl.m@shaw.ca] RE religion with humour lesssons for us all NJC ["Lucy Hone" ] Re: prepare ye - njc rc pc [colin ] Re: Little Green/Circle Game Medley [FredNow@aol.com] Re: njc, rc, pc, humanism and animal rights [colin ] Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #18 ["Eryl B Davies" ] Re: njc, rc, pc, humanism and animal rights ["Victor Johnson" ] RE: Bible, njc rc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Medley - Little Green [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] opus dei - njc - rc ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: defending your life NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: nothing shocking(njc) [vince ] RE: nothing shocking(njc) ["Wally Kairuz" ] njc shocking Wally [vince ] Re: njc, rc, pc, humanism and animal rights [sl.m@shaw.ca] RE: njc shocking Wally ["Wally Kairuz" ] Long good-bye, short hello ["Kate Bennett" ] Best 10 CD's of 2002 ["Kate Bennett" ] Dan Fogelberg & Woody Allen (NJC) [Lindsay Moon ] Re: nothing shocking(njc) [Mags N Brei ] afterlife?(njc) ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: Bible, njc rc [sl.m@shaw.ca] The Louis Riel Cafe [Little Bird ] Lucifer the Music Man (njc) ["Louis Lynch" ] Re: kate & anna mcgarrigle - njc [Catherine McKay ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 23:26:00 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Bible, njc rc Lori Fye wrote: >> > > Hmm ... well, anytime I've held one I've generally felt less than > godlike, unless it was a strap-on and then ... oh wait, that's a > different subject altogether! ; ) just what has got into you, lately, Lori, dear! Thanks for the laugh. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 18:37:47 -0500 From: vince Subject: re njc Vince, I remember being taught at college that very early Christians got into the habit of cutting of their penises, as I recall because they were a source of sin and imperfection, rendering the penis-holder less than godlike. Answer: that was never mainstream Xian thought in the early period, but it was practiced by a few sects, that died out quickly, for the obvious reasons. There were a lot of mystery sects in those days, some Christian, that sought to renounce all that spoke of pleasure so as to reach perfection.. But you have gotten ahold of something, so to speak, because there was a great debate in the early church as to whether male nonJewish converts to Christianity should be circumcised (at that time Christianity was considered still a part of Judaism). There is much, much in the Christian Covenant (New testament) about that very subject -- and in the days before anesthesia, the non-circumcision party won out. And it was circumcision that was one key factor in the divergence of Christianity from Judaism. Men and they will do and not do with the penis does impact on religion far more than one wants to think. And before I set off a religious controversy: "X" is a perfectly legitimate symbol used for the word "Christ." The Greek letter for what we call in English "ch" is chi, the Greek letter X. On my vestments, on many vestments and paraments, in many stained glassed windows, the X, or sometimes the chi rho, X with the top of the second line having what likes like a P which was the Greek letter for R, rho, is used as a very proper Christian symbol. From the earliest days of the Church, a symbol for Christ was the letter X. Which means all those little signs about "putting Christ back in Xmas" are foolish and uninformed, because X means Christ in Christian symbology. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:40:06 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: njc, rc, pc, humanism and animal rights Vince, thank you for your kind and encouraging words. If I may hark back and clarify, and this may open up another level of debate, I don't know: I think the paragraph of mine you particularly objected to was (words to the effect) that I don't see why human beings can't be dismissed out of hand. Because, I was arguing, we are not so special. You objected to this because you said it embodies an attitude that is a pre-cursor to Holocaust. You are right. It does. Although, I hasten to add, that was not the way I meant it. What I meant is this, and it highlights a difficulty with atheism: I believe in the sanctity of life, or perhaps if not sanctity (that has religious connotations), the importance of life. I believe each life matters because each life is unique. Each "I" is unique and is terrified of non-existence. Therefore, we should not kill, and we should not regard life as cheap, or as a means to an end. But I have difficulty extending this feeling to only human life. I regard animals' lives (their selves) as unique and important too. If I had to choose between killing a man and killing a mouse, I would kill the mouse. But I would do that because a man is self-conscious (whereas a mouse might be, but if so, less so), and a man is intelligent and complex and may be deeply loved by others (whereas, again, a mouse might be similar, but very much less so). I would not save the man, I don't think, because I believe in the sanctity of human life as such. I wouldn't believe I was saving one of god's children. But if I had to choose between killing a very evil, stupid man and a orang utan, which would I choose? Suppose the man was Saddam Hussein, or a paedophile, or . . .you can fill in your own examples. . . and the orang utan was graceful, innocent and let's suppose for the sake of argument, was a mother to lots of little orang utans who might die without her. What would I do then? Would I still kill the animal, and save the evil man, just because of a sanctity of human life argument? If I did still save the man, I would do it with terrible regret, and it would be because I'd be inclined to save my own species over another (so, it would be species-ism), not because I'd regard the man as more worthy of being saved because he is human. It seems to me that, to support the idea of the sanctity of human (as opposed to ALL) life, we need the idea of a god, as a creator who made us in his own image, so that we have something to underwrite our sense of being special. I feel a terrible sadness when I see animals lying by the side of the road, dead or dying, having been hit by a car, and no-one cares about them. No human, and no other animal, cares about them. They are utterly and profoundly alone in this universe, left without any regard even in their worst moment - the ending of their I - no-one stops to help them, no-one prays for them, no-one thinks to sit beside them as they die. There is an aloneness in there that I find almost heart-stopping. The very great disparity between these deaths, and the enormous pomp and circumstance that accompanies the death of a human being (at least here in the West; in Africa, where they starve to death too frequently, there is less of an ability to make a huge fuss each time) leaves me with questions that I don't even know how to start to answer. It was this disparity, and these questions, I was alluding to when I wrote that I don't see why we can't dismiss human beings out of hand, because we're not so special. I should have expressed it with more care. So, I am an atheist, but it does leave me alone in the universe, with an awful lot of questions, and a big gap in morality where god used to explain things. Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:42:54 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: njc, rc, pc, humanism and animal rights Vince, thank you for your kind and encouraging words. If I may hark back and clarify, and this may open up another level of debate, I don't know: I think the paragraph of mine you particularly objected to was (words to the effect) that I don't see why human beings can't be dismissed out of hand. Because, I was arguing, we are not so special. You objected to this because you said it embodies an attitude that is a pre-cursor to Holocaust. You are right. It does. Although, I hasten to add, that was not the way I meant it. What I meant is this, and it highlights a difficulty with atheism: I believe in the sanctity of life, or perhaps if not sanctity (that has religious connotations), the importance of life. I believe each life matters because each life is unique. Each "I" is unique and is terrified of non-existence. Therefore, we should not kill, and we should not regard life as cheap, or as a means to an end. But I have difficulty extending this feeling to only human life. I regard animals' lives (their selves) as unique and important too. If I had to choose between killing a man and killing a mouse, I would kill the mouse. But I would do that because a man is self-conscious (whereas a mouse might be, but if so, less so), and a man is intelligent and complex and may be deeply loved by others (whereas, again, a mouse might be similar, but very much less so). I would not save the man, I don't think, because I believe in the sanctity of human life as such. I wouldn't believe I was saving one of god's children. But if I had to choose between killing a very evil, stupid man and a orang utan, which would I choose? Suppose the man was Saddam Hussein, or a paedophile, or . . .you can fill in your own examples. . . and the orang utan was graceful, innocent and let's suppose for the sake of argument, was a mother to lots of little orang utans who might die without her. What would I do then? Would I still kill the animal, and save the evil man, just because of a sanctity of human life argument? If I did still save the man, I would do it with terrible regret, and it would be because I'd be inclined to save my own species over another (so, it would be species-ism), not because I'd regard the man as more worthy of being saved because he is human. It seems to me that, to support the idea of the sanctity of human (as opposed to ALL) life, we need the idea of a god, as a creator who made us in his own image, so that we have something to underwrite our sense of being special. I feel a terrible sadness when I see animals lying by the side of the road, dead or dying, having been hit by a car, and no-one cares about them. No human, and no other animal, cares about them. They are utterly and profoundly alone in this universe, left without any regard even in their worst moment - the ending of their I - no-one stops to help them, no-one prays for them, no-one thinks to sit beside them as they die. There is an aloneness in there that I find almost heart-stopping. The very great disparity between these deaths, and the enormous pomp and circumstance that accompanies the death of a human being (at least here in the West; in Africa, where they starve to death too frequently, there is less of an ability to make a huge fuss each time) leaves me with questions that I don't even know how to start to answer. It was this disparity, and these questions, I was alluding to when I wrote that I don't see why we can't dismiss human beings out of hand, because we're not so special. I should have expressed it with more care. So, I am an atheist, but it does leave me alone in the universe, with an awful lot of questions, and a big gap in morality where god used to explain things. Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 23:48:08 +0000 From: "Lucy Hone" Subject: RE religion with humour lesssons for us all NJC I am very new to the JMDl and have been dipping in and out of the whole thing but I loved the Dear doctor Laura llist from Kate Bennet. Brillian and I am sending it to other cynics. We are all here under this dome of the sky and are all human. And that is what all of us are, just human. A wonderful man called Satish Kumar talked to me at a conference about a walk he made from the tomb of Ghandi to the tomb of JFK and he went via London, Moscow and Paris to talk about peace. On the way he was given some packets of tea by some ladies on a co-operative farm somewhere in Russia, to give to the world leaders, so that on the point of pressing the red button they would maybe stop and have a cup of tea first. The only place he had any problem was in France, but then they like their coffee.... But he said to me. all of us, even the most powerful men are only that. only men. Makes you want to put the kettle on doesn't it. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 18:51:14 -0500 From: vince Subject: njc prism Sarah wrote: > Vince, thank you for your kind and encouraging words. > > If I may hark back and clarify, and this may open up another level of > debate, I don't know: > > I think the paragraph of mine you particularly objected to was (words > to the effect) that I don't see why human beings can't be dismissed > out of hand. Because, I was arguing, we are not so special. > > You objected to this because you said it embodies an attitude that is > a pre-cursor to Holocaust. > > You are right. It does. Although, I hasten to add, that was not the > way I meant it. And now given that clarification, we have found that words have been stumbling blocks in our communication. A strength of the JMDL is that when we have kept talking long enough we usually find much common ground and understandings with which we can communicate and see that sometimes we are just next to each other on the multifaced and multifaceted prism of life. And better if I go back to lurking before I cause any offense more than I have. But rejoice in that once again in the JMDL, we have found those areas of congruence that did not at first appear, and we thus have achieved an understanding that in many other places and cyber lists would be impossible. The JMDL is a most special place. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 23:52:16 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: prepare ye - njc rc pc sl.m@shaw.ca wrote: > I don't believe I have a relationship with god, Colin, because I don't > believe there is a god. yes i understand that. however, if there is a God you have a relationship with Her even if in your mind you don't. Your relaionship at the least is one of disbeliefand perhaps one sided. I am not putting this very well. > > > I agree very much with your analysis that we are punished BY our sins, > not FOR them, and that's very well put. And i would say much more > effective and moving than any standard religious teaching. It's karma. > > Regarding the difference some people on the list have made between > expiation of sin and forgiveness by god of sin, we had a case here > recently of a Mennonite woman who had persuaded mothers in the local > community to bring their children to her, to be beaten with a stick > for their bad behaviour, so that god would be able to forgive them. > She was reported and prosecuted eventually. But the mothers spoke up > on her behalf in court, saying she was providing a vital service by > allowing their children to get to heaven, because if they went > unpunished, god would not be able to let them in. I can only shake my > head. The second last sentence does not surprise me. People still think it is okay to hit children. People still think that children 'get over' things very quickly, that they forget. Well they don't. Many say 'i was hit as child and it didn't do me any harm' while at the very leasst that was the harm it did them-that they now think it wasn't harmful. Do adults ever stop and think what it would feel like if their boss at work spanked them when they failed?(no smutty kokes here) Humiliating? Powerless? (tho the powerless feeling would not be the same as the size difference is not there). How does it teach 'goodness' to treat a child with violence? So often the adult is really just acting out their own hidden pain and rage at how they were treated. So much bullshit is said about 'parents doing their best' which is just another excuse. Love and violence, eithet physical or emotional, are just compatible. People who abuse their children do not 'love them really'. 'Honor Thy Father and Thy Mother' has catastrophic effects on so many people's lives. > > > Ironically, it's our intelligence that draws us to religious belief. > We can't stand the thought that when we die, we won't exist for all > infinity. We can't absorb the non-existence of the 'I'. Yet we are > intelligent enough as a species to understand these concepts > (infinity, death, I) So we need stories to help us live what might > otherwise seem terrifying, empty lives with nothing but infinite > darkness ahead. I have always rather liked the idea that death was THE END. I still do. I did actually believe that for a long time until i had experiences that taught me otherwise. i was not a happy bunny when I was shown that life did not end with physical death. not at all. i was very angry and not a little afraid. > > > When I read the old testament as a child, I understand the Adam/Eve > story to represent the idea that knowledge is not just a gift, but is > a curse too, and we should not seek it carelessly. And that this life > can be regarded as hell, because we have lost the innocence of animals > - we know that we will die, we have self-consciousness, and we know > that the "I" will someday not be. This terrifies us, so we either live > lives of terror (if we think about it) or ignorance (if we don't think > about it). And this was the warning of the authors of the old > testament 2,000 years ago. Be careful of knowledge. I didn't think this as child and I agree somewhat with you. however, I guess I view it slightly differently(maybe it isn't different) in that i think it is about becomign aware of choice. Liberating and frightening. Plus as you say becoming aware of self. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:03:14 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Little Green/Circle Game Medley SCJoniGuy@aol.com writes: >For those who may be interested in Joni Mitchell, I mentioned a couple >of days ago about a performance at the 1968 Philly Folk Festival in which >she played a medley of Little Green & Circle Game, which I find very moving >because of the themes (and realities behind them) of the 2 songs. > >I converted the track to a .wma file last night (plays on Windows Media >Player) to share electronically with whoever might want to hear it. So >if you are interested, let me know. Note: this medley runs over 8 and a >half minutes, so if you're on a dial-up it's about a 20-minute download. > >I don't know if Macs can handle a .wma file. Hey, Bob, I'd love the file, thanks. By the way, there is a Mac version of Windows Media Player, available for free download from Microzoloft I believe. All best, Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 00:03:27 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: njc, rc, pc, humanism and animal rights > But if I had to choose between killing a very evil, stupid man and a > orang utan, which would I choose? Suppose the man was Saddam Hussein, I think it is ethically okay, or maybe just the best we can do, to kill a person when by doing so one would save many lives. > or a paedophile, I don't agree with this at all. It would just more guilt and shame on their victims. We must always put the needs of the children first, not our own understandable feelings as adults. > > I > It seems to me that, to support the idea of the sanctity of human (as > opposed to ALL) life, we need the idea of a god, as a creator who made > us in his own image, so that we have something to underwrite our sense > of being special. No i don't think we need a God to understand this. i also think that man has made God in his image. > > > I feel a terrible sadness when I see animals lying by the side of the > road, dead or dying, having been hit by a car, and no-one cares about > them. No human, and no other animal, cares about them. They are > utterly and profoundly alone in this universe, left without any regard > even in their worst moment - the ending of their I - no-one stops to > help them, no-one prays for them, no-one thinks to sit beside them as > they die. No this isn't true. Many feel as you do. Really. Not too long a go as John adnI were driving to a dog show, a Springer escaped and was galloping along the side of the road. He ran out in front of me. i was doing 40mph. Everything seemd to go in slow motion. John yelled 'oh no ohn oh no' in a voice I have not ever heard form him in 22 years. He is a quiet man. I hit the dog. He somersaulted over and over and got up and ran off. I stopped the car and went after him. he ran home. He had one torn nail. It was sickening. Niether of us forgot it in a hurry. I cannot imagine, well actually I can and it soesn't bear thinking about, what it would feel liek to run a person over. I cannot watch animal crulety on tv. I can't watch ads for animal protection soceties etc. I reall cannot handle it. I think it is because animals are so inncent, arre silent, and defenceless againts us. Like children really. > There is an aloneness in there that I find almost heart-stopping. that i know. > > > So, I am an atheist, but it does leave me alone in the universe, we are all ultimately alone. > with an awful lot of questions, and a big gap in morality where god > used to explain things. mmm. i am not at all sure we need to have God in order to have morals9if that is what you mean). I am so glad you joined the list.it wonderful to have such stimulation. > > > Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 00:11:53 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: RE religion with humour lesssons for us all NJC tha k you Lucy and welcome to the list. i used to think no one would ever press that button. now I am not so sure. Have you tried german coffee? Or spanish. ia sked for one in Cardedeu(near barcelona0 and got a thimble full of foul black liquid! In France the coffee is good. So is the food(when it isn't the arty farty nouvelle cuisine type!) Lucy Hone wrote: >I am very new to the JMDl and have been dipping in and out of the whole >thing but I loved the Dear doctor Laura llist from Kate Bennet. Brillian >and I am sending it to other cynics. We are all here under this dome of >the sky and are all human. And that is what all of us are, just human. A >wonderful man called Satish Kumar talked to me at a conference about a >walk he made from the tomb of Ghandi to the tomb of JFK and he went via >London, Moscow and Paris to talk about peace. On the way he was given >some packets of tea by some ladies on a co-operative farm somewhere in >Russia, to give to the world leaders, so that on the point of pressing >the red button they would maybe stop and have a cup of tea first. The >only place he had any problem was in France, but then they like their >coffee.... > >But he said to me. all of us, even the most powerful men are only that. >only men. Makes you want to put the kettle on doesn't it. > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 00:26:23 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Bible, njc rc sl.m@shaw.ca wrote: > Vince, I remember being taught at college that very early Christians > got into the habit of cutting of their penises, as I recall because > they were a source of sin and imperfection, rendering the penis-holder > less than godlike. Early community leaders had to beg them to stop, > and ruled that sex and procreation were to be encouraged, because of a > fear that very soon the world would run out of Christians. ;-) I > don't know if this is a true story, but it's a good one. > > Sarah > > as you may have gathered, i was a very disturbed person(some would say still am) due to my childhood experiences and all the hate and shame etc heaped upon me by religion back then. (we were RC's first, then JW's and finally Born Again Xians). Anyway, i almost sliced off my own penis. That was in the days I still believed i was responsible for the sexual abuse. in fact i didn't see it as abuse but rather as me being evil and unusally precocious having been sexually active from the age of 5. It seemed a logical thing to do at the time. However, as I sat there in the bath thinking about it, i came to the conclusion that chopping my dick off would not 'cleanse' me, that it wouldn't undo the past and it wouldn't stop me feeling horny. Yes, I felt I was a bad person for feeling horny. Good Xians don't have sexual feelings. Sexual feelings are only experienced by the 'fallen'. And anyway, my sexual feelings in particular were evil and my childhood was evidence of that. of course I feel differently now. tho not always. that sort of stuff never goes away. Still I am rather fond of old dick now and am so glad I still have one. i would have missed him terribly. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 00:30:55 -0000 From: "Eryl B Davies" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #18 Subject: Re: Painting with Words and Music JMDL Digest V2003 #18 Jerry Notaro wrote: "..... I've read comments online from some who say the sound is "muddy." I'm convinced it is because some don't know how to set the audio properly." I too initially had this impression but I have the benefit of having access to a pro. studio and immediatelly took the disc in to check it out. The verdict - beautifull!. the bass is full, warm and detailed, especially in the upper bass. probably too detailed for many aging (like mine) home systems. I have taken it as a final nudge to update my system. The active sub is already here, the next step is to replace the main speakers to something smaller, faster and more detailed. To all those who find the sound muddy - change your system and/or your acoustics. For the hi fi nuts out there the studio set up is ATC SCM100A, over #6000 worth of speaker and amplifiers and worth every penny. Eryl P.S for a good demo of a system with a subwoofer try Allison Krauss+Union Station "New Favourite" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:32:24 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: njc, rc, pc, humanism and animal rights Sarah, thanks for your post. > So, I am an atheist, but it does leave me alone in the universe, with > an awful lot of questions, and a big gap in morality where god used > to explain things. It's funny but I believe there is a spiritual world that is just as real as the physical realm and that there is a creator. Yet ultimately, I am still alone in the universe, have an awful lot of questions, and for me, God does not explain things but only further deepens the mystery. I know that people do turn to religion for comfort but for me it has always been more of an eternal journey, always seeking something that is seemingly within my grasp but is ever so elusive. So perhaps we are not so far apart. > I feel a terrible sadness when I see animals lying by the side of the > road, dead or dying, having been hit by a car, and no-one cares about > them. No human, and no other animal, cares about them. They are > utterly and profoundly alone in this universe, left without any > regard even in their worst moment - the ending of their I - no-one > stops to help them, no-one prays for them, no-one thinks to sit > beside them as they die. There is an aloneness in there that I find > almost heart-stopping. I feel this way too when I see these animals, far too often. A couple of years ago, my dog Andy was hit by a car and died on the way to the vet. I felt an immense sadness yet an incredible feeling of warmth, a strong sense of his presence. Afterwards I realized earlier in the day I had been warned by a bird that this was going to happen (sounds strange I know but I swear its true.) I found this comforting in a strange sort of way...telling me that it was just part of the natural order of things, that it was okay. Ever since then when I have seen these animals I realize that it is just their body lying there and that they no longer feel any pain. Its nothing I can explain but only what I have experienced and feel. But then there is much in this world that we can not explain but can only wonder at. I wrote this song while riding in a bus in central Mexico. Rainbow (c)1991 Rainbow, pretty rainbow Why do you grace the sky When you know beneath your colors So many broken people lie As I ride to Uruapan, a hundred sunsets in my bag I think of friends who left long ago To fight for colored rags Between stony mountains faces Bearing down on me We ride like lost children Thinking we are free But though rain falls from heaven And rainbows make us smile We cannot drink the water Nor can we save the dying child La la la la, La la la la, LA la la La la la, La la la la la La la la la, La la la la, LA la la La la la, La la la la la Once upon a time I was a prince in disguise But you pressed my rags closed to you And held me in your eyes As the passing of years Crumbled mountains to the ground We laughed and we smiled at the love we had found You stood on the shore Looking for stones as if you could Walk on the water and carry me home But the waves were too high They melted the sand Like two birds on the wing We ran, we ran chorus Though we ran far from home We could not hide The buildings around us They crumbled inside And as the water carried us away We wondered why rainbows Don't shine every day The water it carried us down strange avenues Pass dead dogs in the street And rainy day blues And I thought of a girl I'd known long ago How she couldn't teach me What I didn't know How I stood in the rain Wanting to play A song or two to brighten her day As children with rifles Were sent off to fight Thunder and lightning Graced the night chorus - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 21:39:39 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: nothing shocking(njc) oh but i heard birgit nilsson sing "i could have danced all night" and i was not shocked in the least! but i feel pretty much left out now that so many people are shocked, so i'll think of something suitable that can shock me and i'll let you all know presently. wallyK - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de vince Enviado el: Viernes, 10 de Enero de 2003 08:17 p.m. Para: SCJoniGuy@aol.com CC: waytoblu@mindspring.com; joni@smoe.org Asunto: Re: nothing shocking(njc) I thought that the only thing that would shock Wally is a Birgit Nilsson doing a cover of Raised on Robbery. I have no idea what could shock Les so much that he would post twice in one day, but we can keep trying to find out. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 21:43:38 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Bible, njc rc and so would john, dear! wallyK - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de colin Enviado el: Viernes, 10 de Enero de 2003 09:26 p.m. Para: sl.m@shaw.ca CC: Joni Asunto: Re: Bible, njc rc Still I am rather fond of old dick now and am so glad I still have one. i would have missed him terribly. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:54:33 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Medley - Little Green In a message dated 1/10/2003 6:09:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, Harry83house@aol.com writes: > Its also cool to hear the early, sli-i-ightly different melody of > "Little Green". Its almost like Joni hasn't found that last piece of the > puzzle yet. I wonder if it sounds that way in this recording because she's (obviously) playing it in the same tuning as Circle Game? Or are those two songs in the same tuning anyway? A query for the many talented Joni guitarists in our midst. As I said, this is among my favorite Joni performances. And one of a couple "medleys" she did early on..."Marcie/Nathan La Franeer" was another, "River/Willy" another, and then there was the peculiar combination of "Willy" & a song called "Looking Out For Love" that I never see referenced anywhere as a separate song. Is the general consensus that "Looking out For Love" is additional lyric to Willy, or that it's a stand-alone song. Those that have this recording, what do you think? > Of course, one can only imagine what it took for her to write > it. It sucked me in the very first time I heard it. What a great song > "Little Green" is! > Yes, and what you say is the reason it almost always makes me cry, not just when Joni sings it, but also the wonderful other interpretations; Bryan Thomas, Mia Znidaric, and especially Jack Donahue, a fine NY cabaret artist. Bob NP: Laird Jackson, "Tin Angel" (talk about mighty might good covers - oh man!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 21:57:31 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: opus dei - njc - rc josemaria escriva was indeed canonized on october 2 2002, which i believe means that he is now a catholic saint. for you enjoyment visit http://www.escriva-canonization.org/home.asp and http://www.opusdei.org/ wallyK, who has worked for TWO opus dei run universities - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de mike pritchard Enviado el: Viernes, 10 de Enero de 2003 07:30 a.m. Para: wally kairuz CC: list Asunto: re:hell, jesus - njc - rc ...and ESPECIALLY in Spain itself. The Pope recently beatified? canonised? the founder of Opus Dei (Escriba?) as a step on the way to making him a saint. Sorry for the lack of the precise words about what happened in Rome. Opus Dei really has a strong influence on the present government here in Spain and in public life in general, not to mention the universities. mike ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 22:05:26 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: defending your life NJC i love it too! best scene? streep eating spaghetti without a trace of guilt because now she'll never grow fat! wallyK, still alive hence growing fat - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de PAUL PETERSON Enviado el: Viernes, 10 de Enero de 2003 03:33 p.m. Para: joni@smoe.org; ekg200@nyu.edu Asunto: defending your life NJC Brooks' best film and really sweet and so funny. Glad someone else loves it as much as I do. Paul Peterson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 20:19:53 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: nothing shocking(njc) Wally Kairuz wrote: >oh but i heard birgit nilsson sing "i could have danced all night" and i was >not shocked in the least! but i feel pretty much left out now that so many >people are shocked, so i'll think of something suitable that can shock me >and i'll let you all know presently. > OK: Brigit Nilsson doing a cover of "White America", Eminem's grammy nominated song Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 22:25:10 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: nothing shocking(njc) thanks vince! very suitably shocking, indeed. w - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de vince Enviado el: Viernes, 10 de Enero de 2003 10:20 p.m. Para: Wally Kairuz CC: SCJoniGuy@aol.com; waytoblu@mindspring.com; joni@smoe.org Asunto: Re: nothing shocking(njc) Wally Kairuz wrote: >oh but i heard birgit nilsson sing "i could have danced all night" and i was >not shocked in the least! but i feel pretty much left out now that so many >people are shocked, so i'll think of something suitable that can shock me >and i'll let you all know presently. > OK: Brigit Nilsson doing a cover of "White America", Eminem's grammy nominated song Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 20:28:02 -0500 From: vince Subject: njc shocking Wally Wally Kairuz wrote: > oh but i heard birgit nilsson sing "i could have danced all night" and > i was > not shocked in the least! but i feel pretty much left out now that so many > people are shocked, so i'll think of something suitable that can shock me > and i'll let you all know presently. > OK better yet: : Birgit Nilsson doing a duet with Ludacris of "Move, bitch, get out the way, get out the way" from his grammy nominated best rap album, Word of Mouf Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:31:07 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: njc, rc, pc, humanism and animal rights Victor, thanks for sending your song. I love it - especially this part -- Sarah At 7:32 PM -0800 01/10/2003, Victor Johnson wrote: >The water it carried us down strange avenues >Pass dead dogs in the street >And rainy day blues >And I thought of a girl I'd known long ago >How she couldn't teach me >What I didn't know ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 22:58:58 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: njc shocking Wally you wanna kill me, man of the cloth? there just MIGHT be a hell, you know? wallyK, recoiling in horror - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de vince Enviado el: Viernes, 10 de Enero de 2003 10:28 p.m. Para: Joni Asunto: njc shocking Wally Wally Kairuz wrote: > oh but i heard birgit nilsson sing "i could have danced all night" and > i was > not shocked in the least! but i feel pretty much left out now that so many > people are shocked, so i'll think of something suitable that can shock me > and i'll let you all know presently. > OK better yet: : Birgit Nilsson doing a duet with Ludacris of "Move, bitch, get out the way, get out the way" from his grammy nominated best rap album, Word of Mouf Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:55:18 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Long good-bye, short hello good to have you back harper lou! >>Hello everyone, It's Harper Lou, longlost Joniphile, correspondent and occasional = nemesis!<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:55:19 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Best 10 CD's of 2002 well, many thanks brian s! (oh, i realized that i neglected my amelia comp promise...i've been down & out with that flu for many weeks but i promise to listen to the dat & send to you if it sounds okay...) >>Well, I will have to admit my addiction here to JM. Travelogue Disc one and Two and the other 8 are the CD's from 2002 Joni Fest Tops are Kate B with that Harmonica Man behind her & Gregg C's songs, and sneeking in at 11 is the Special Amelia Cover CD SCJoniguy made for Amelia's Fourth Birthday, all the Finest Amelia's Covers put on one CD even Yael Harlap from jf2002 which Amelia makes me replay. NP Borderline TT JM Brian<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 18:26:53 -0800 From: Lindsay Moon Subject: Dan Fogelberg & Woody Allen (NJC) Two topics, unrelated. Has anyone ever heard the Dan Fogelberg song "Tucson, Arizona (Gazette)" off his "Windows & Walls" album? I just replaced the album with the CD and the song stuns me it is so amazing. Just wondering if anyone else knew of it. We happened upon the middle of a Woody Allen movie last night and I'm wondering if one of the WA afficionados on the list would be able to tell me which one it was. It was quite old, with Louise Lasser, his former wife, as his girlfriend. Just hysterical when she breaks up with him. She says she wants to go off and help poor people, go help people with leprosy, live in a leper colony. In desperation, Woody says something along the lines of, "Leprosy! I love leprosy! Leprosy, cholera, I love all the major skin diseases ..." We were laughing so hard. Then the scene switches to him going to some South American town called San Marcos where he becomes the patsy of their dictator and they are trying to kill him ... he wakes up from being knocked unconscious, feels the back of his head where he got butted with a gun, and says, "No more Polish women!" We had to go to bed finally but we were reviewing lines while going to sleep. I guess it's Woody when I found him funny, as some people say they liked Joni best with the first few albums (not my opinion, but from the outfits sported by some of the audience members I've seen at her concerts, I'd say they're lookin' for her to 'paint a Starry Night again, man!') Why can't you people be available by phone or Starbucks so I could discuss these deep and personal matters with you at length?? Can't we start some sort of JMDL commune?? Thanks for the help, Lindsay ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 18:25:27 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: nothing shocking(njc) Vince wrote: <<>> well Vince, as shocking as this may be, perhaps we need to ask Les more questions pertaining to Joni Mitchell. Hmmm imagine that happening on the joni mitchell discussion list yet. What a concept. whew. ;-) mischievous mags xo You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 21:44:26 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: afterlife?(njc) from Dostoyevsky "Crime and Punishment" which I just happened to be reading today. 'I don't believe in a life to come,' Raskolnikov said. Svidrigailov sat looking pensive. 'And what if there's nothing there except spiders, or something of that kind?" he said suddenly. 'This is a madman,' Raskolnikov thought. 'You see, we always think of eternity as an idea that can't be comprehended, as something enormous, gigantic! But why does it have to be so very large? I mean, instead of thinking of it that way, try supposing that all there will be is one little room, something akin to a country bath-house, with soot on the walls and spiders in every corner, and there's your eternity for you. You know, I sometimes see it that way.' 'Can you really, really not imagine anything more just and consoling than that?" Raskolnikov exclaimed with a feeling of pain. 'Just? But who knows, perhaps that's exactly what it is- just, and you know, if I'd been given the job, I'd most certainly have designed things that way!' - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 20:55:18 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Bible, njc rc That's an awful story, Colin. It's a terrible thing to cause those feelings and that guilt in children, and then of course the children are left alone to make sense of it all, and they can't, so it gets internalized. I'm glad you're back on good terms with your own body! Sarah At 12:26 AM +0000 01/11/2003, colin wrote: Anyway, i almost sliced off my own penis. That was in the days I still believed i was responsible for the sexual abuse. >Still I am rather fond of old dick now and am so glad I still have >one. i would have missed him terribly. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:30:57 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: The Louis Riel Cafe The Louis Riel Cafe was not named after some chi-chi entrepeneur or fashion icon - no, no. Read on to find out about the man behind the cafe, and indeed, much of Canadian rhetoric... - -Andrew LOUIS RIEL: Louis Riel, a leader of his people in their resistance against the Canadian government in the Canadian Northwest, is perhaps the most controversial figure in Canadian historiography. His life and deeds have spawned a massive and diverse literature. He was born in the Red River Settlement (in what is now Manitoba) in 1844. A promising student, he was sent to Montreal to train for the priesthood, but he never graduated. An attempt at training as a lawyer ended similarly, and by 1868 Riel was back in the Red River area. Ambitious, well educated and bilingual, Riel quickly emerged as a leader among the Mitis of the Red River. In 1869-1870 he headed a provisional government, which would eventually negotiate the Manitoba Act with the Canadian government. The Act established Manitoba as a province and provided some protection for French language rights. Riel's leadership in the agitation, especially his decision to execute a Canadian named Thomas Scott, enraged anti-Catholic and anti-French sentiment in Ontario. Although chosen for a seat in the House of Commons on three occasions, he was unable to take his seat in the house. In 1875, Riel's role in the death of Scott resulted in his exile from Canada. These years in exile would include stays in two Quebec asylums and the growing belief in Riel that he had a religious mission to lead the Mitis people of the Canadian northwest. In 1884, while teaching in Montana at a Jesuit mission, Riel was asked by a delegation from the community of Mitis from thesouth branch of the Saskatchewan river to present their grievances to the Canadian government. Despite Riel's assistance, the federal government ignored Mitis concerns. By March of 1885, Mitis patience was exhausted and a provisional government was declared. Riel was the undisputed spiritual and political head of the short-lived 1885 Rebellion. He never carried arms and hindered the work of his military head, Gabriel Dumont. Riel was increasingly influenced by his belief that he was chosen to lead the Mitis people. On May 15, shortly after the fall of Batoche, Riel surrendered to Canadian forces and was taken to Regina to stand trial for treason. At his trial, Riel gave two long speeches which demonstrated his powerful rhetorical abilities. He personally rejected attempts by his defence counsel to prove he was not guilty by reason of insanity. On 1 August 1885, a jury of six English-speaking Protestants found Riel guilty but recommended mercy. Judge Hugh Richardson sentenced him to death. Attempted appeals were dismissed and a special re-examination of Riel's mental state by government appointed doctors found him sane. He was hanged in Regina on 16 November, 1885. His execution was widely opposed in Quebec and had lasting political ramifications. Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 23:00:35 -0500 From: "Louis Lynch" Subject: Lucifer the Music Man (njc) Within the weave of threads on Christ, Satan, Hell, etc., Victor Johnson = wrote: Satan was in charge of music? I didn't even know he could sing. Maybe someone should write a musical about the fall of Lucifer. I have this picture of Satan handing out harps to all the angels. =20 Victor -- I'm sorry, but about that picture you have... =20 Those are NOT harps Satan is handing out. They are accordions! Take a = closer look. Regards, Harper Lou PS to everyone -- I'm glad to be reading the JMDL again. What a blast = to see that the list is still full of interesting discussions! "Jesus = and Hitler and Howard Hughes..." Hope I didn't miss the threads on = Charlie Chaplin's movies or Bergman's Nordic blues. Thanks for those who wrote to say hello, too! (I didn't respond = immediately because I am subscribed in Digest format.)=20 PPS regarding several questions people asked about my harp playing -- = yes, I still play a little Joni on the harp, however... I started this new band called Harp Rock Cafe. Classic rock like = Clapton, Stones, Metallica. Even a little modern stuff like Goo Goo = Pumpkins and Nine Inch Mudd. I also plug my 47-string concert grand = through an effects panel so I get fuzz and wawa and tremelo and other = hellish sounds (maybe Victor was right after all). When most men hit my age, they buy red sports cars and seek out young = lovers. Me, I amplify my harp and learn all the riffs to "Black Magic = Woman." Can't even have a decent mid-life crisis, can I? More regards, Harper Lou [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type text/x-vcard which had a name of Louis Lynch.vcf] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 22:48:03 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: kate & anna mcgarrigle - njc --- Ron Greer wrote: > hi > > well "matapedia" is a wonderful album & i would > recomend it to any jonifan. > > but what the heck does "matapedia" mean - i cant > even find it at > dictionary.com Matapedia is a place in the Gaspe area of Quebec (very beautiful, not that I've been there, but want to go there.) http://www.gaspesie.net/matapedia/ ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #21 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)