From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #20 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, January 10 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 020 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- This JUST In!!!!!!!! [Michaelpaz@aol.com] defending your life NJC ["PAUL PETERSON" ] Re: This JUST In!!!!!!!! [Jerry Notaro ] Re: DJRD cover photo NJC [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: DJRD cover photo NJC ["Lori Fye" ] Re: This JUST In!!!!!!!! NJC [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Joni covers [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] (njc) Joni under covers ["Lori Fye" ] Re: This JUST In!!!!!!!! [Randy Remote ] Re: joni covers dylan question [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: NJC Lucifer the music man [colin ] Re: This JUST In!!!!!!!! (njc) ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Prepare, NJC PC [colin ] Re: NJC Lucifer the music man [colin ] Re: Top cds of 2002 *lets try this again! [Patti Witten ] Re: joni covers dylan question ["Bill Dollinger" ] MARY GAUTHIER njc ["Kate Bennett" ] religion, politics & humor? njc ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: hell, jesus - njc - rc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: DJRD cover photo [Mags N Brei ] Re: religion, politics & humor? njc [colin ] Re: NJC Lucifer the music man ["Bree Mcdonough" ] [none] [=?iso-8859-1?q?Joseph=20Francis?= ] last gasp on religion (njc) [Steve Dulson ] Re: prepare ye - njc rc pc [sl.m@shaw.ca] nothing shocking(njc) ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: prepare ye - njc rc pc [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: prepare - njc - rc [vince ] Re: NJC Lucifer the music man [vince ] Re: Pius XII, njc rc [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: Joni covers [vince ] Re: last gasp on religion (njc) ["Lori Fye" ] defending your life NJC [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: Bible, njc rc [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: NJC Lucifer the music man [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: Joni's old venue [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: Bible, njc rc and sex! (wot, no pc?) [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: Bible, njc rc [Lori Fye ] Re: prepare ye - njc rc pc ["Lori Fye" ] Re: nothing shocking(njc) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: prepare ye - njc rc pc ["Lori Fye" ] Favourite poems njc [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: Medley [Harry83house@aol.com] njc [vince ] Re: Bible, njc rc and sex! (wot, no pc?) ["Lori Fye" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 13:26:23 EST From: Michaelpaz@aol.com Subject: This JUST In!!!!!!!! Hi Kids- I have just heard that the following artists are scheduled to play this years New Orleans Jazz and Heritage Festival. I do not have the exact dates, but they will be announced very shortly. The festival starts April 24 thru May 4. They are adding another thursday this year on the first weekend. All of these folks are expected to do night shows. I will post again when I have more info, but I thought I would give you guys something to think about so you can start making your plans. CSN/The Dudes (formally the Subdudes) Bob Dylan/Lucinda Williams Michael Franks/Angela Bofill Widespread Panic (2 nights) Best to all, Michael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 13:32:34 -0500 From: "PAUL PETERSON" Subject: defending your life NJC Brooks' best film and really sweet and so funny. Glad someone else loves it as much as I do. Paul Peterson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 13:30:50 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: This JUST In!!!!!!!! I am a HUGE Angela Bofill fan and haven't seen her in a long while. Pazfest lives!!!!!!!! Michaelpaz@aol.com wrote: > Hi Kids- > > I have just heard that the following artists are scheduled to play this years > New Orleans Jazz and Heritage Festival. I do not have the exact dates, but > they will be announced very shortly. The festival starts April 24 thru May 4. > They are adding another thursday this year on the first weekend. All of these > folks are expected to do night shows. I will post again when I have more > info, but I thought I would give you guys something to think about so you can > start making your plans. > > CSN/The Dudes (formally the Subdudes) > > Bob Dylan/Lucinda Williams > > Michael Franks/Angela Bofill > > Widespread Panic (2 nights) > > > > Best to all, > > > > Michael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 13:37:45 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: DJRD cover photo NJC In a message dated 1/10/2003 1:25:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, magsnbrei@yahoo.com writes: > does anyone know who the kid in the tux is on the cover of DJRD? > Haley Joel Osment :~) Sorry Mags, I tried looking in the archives the first time you asked, and couldn't find anything. I just wanted you to know you weren't being ignored. Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:40:43 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: DJRD cover photo NJC > does anyone know who the kid in the tux is on the cover of DJRD? I thought ALL the photos on the DJRD cover were Joni ... are we sure the kid in the tux isn't her? Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 13:41:22 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: This JUST In!!!!!!!! NJC In a message dated 1/10/2003 1:33:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, notaro@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu writes: > I am a HUGE Angela Bofill fan and haven't seen her in a long while. Pazfest > lives!!!!!!!! > and I'm a HUGE Michael Franks fan. Mikey, have Freda get my room ready :~) Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 13:43:06 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni covers In a message dated 1/10/2003 1:15:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, ReckersL@ebrd.com writes: > I guess that even if I hummed Amelia in the bath and the tape recorder was > accidentially on, you'd know about it before I did! > Maybe, but I'd be more interested in the video - Whoo Hoo! ;~) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:43:20 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: (njc) Joni under covers Just daydreaming ... ; ) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:41:29 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: This JUST In!!!!!!!! Nice line-up, but sorry to hear the Subdudes changed their name, it was the coolest band name ever! If you see them, slap them around for me... RR Michaelpaz@aol.com wrote: > Hi Kids- > > I have just heard that the following artists are scheduled to play this years > New Orleans Jazz and Heritage Festival. I do not have the exact dates, but > they will be announced very shortly. The festival starts April 24 thru May 4. > They are adding another thursday this year on the first weekend. All of these > folks are expected to do night shows. I will post again when I have more > info, but I thought I would give you guys something to think about so you can > start making your plans. > > CSN/The Dudes (formally the Subdudes) > > Bob Dylan/Lucinda Williams > > Michael Franks/Angela Bofill > > Widespread Panic (2 nights) > > > > Best to all, > > > > Michael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 13:46:41 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: joni covers dylan question In a message dated 1/10/2003 1:18:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, bill@friendsofanimals.org writes: > It's All Over Now Baby Blue > Oh yeah...good call on that one Bill...but it's a really bizarre cover, she starts playing the piano to the "Not To Blame" melody, then jumps in with those lyrics, as if she had the melody but not the lyric and was experimenting with putting words with it. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 18:48:23 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: NJC Lucifer the music man >and ABBA. > now hold on a minute! you leave ABBA alone! They are/were wonderful! Despite rumours, they have no hidden messages in their music. It's good clean TUNEFUL fun! So there! > >Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:58:26 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: This JUST In!!!!!!!! (njc) > Lucinda Williams > Angela Bofill AWESOME, Michael! Thanks for the info! Lori, big fan of both of the above, and wondering why oh why the New Orleans Jazz and Heritage Festival can't be the weekend of Feb 16, or why the Mardi Gras Marathon can't be between April 24 - May 4. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 18:59:51 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Prepare, NJC PC TerryM2222@aol.com wrote: >FWIW, I identify as a Jewish Humanist Atheist. >You have no idea what kind of flack I get from some Jewish friends and >relatives who say- "How can one be Jewish *and* Atheist"? > One thing I have always been confused by-is being Jewish a religion or a race? It seesm to me the latter, tho i have heard people deny this. > >Letting go of the idea of a god/God years ago, has been the most liberating, >wonderful thing that has happened to me. I call it my religious experience in >reverse... > good for you. I had a similar experience when i let go of the God I was taught about. > >At my temple, our rabbi is gay. > Good God!;-) > > > > >Anyway, I won't be entering in many of these discussions mainly because my >feelings, my "take" on all of this has little backing because of my lack of >knowledge of religious history. I can only speak from my own reality and 49 >years on this earth. > I think that quailifes you to speak. Beside which, we hear far too little from you nowadays. > >Terry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:01:48 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: NJC Lucifer the music man >Kenny G > is very popular in China. His picture is up on billboards all over and they love his music. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 14:10:51 -0500 From: Patti Witten Subject: Re: Top cds of 2002 *lets try this again! > ... if I'm totally into Beck and Tori Amos, can anyone > suggest a few artists out there who have similar little gems out there > waiting to be discovered? Hi Mitch, I don't listen to a lot of new music (bad habit) so I'm not as informed as a typical fan/consumer. But, in addition to Aimee Mann and Beck, I liked Tori Amos Scarlet's Walk, too, and have much respect for Alanis, Lucinda Williams, Jonatha Brooke and Sheryl Crow. I left off Patty Griffin and should be punished for that omission! The others on my top cds of 2002 list, Gabe Tavares and Uniit, are indies like me. They can be found at http://itownrecords.com Last year I also bought CDs by Rosie Thomas (Subpop Records) and Richard Buckner. Leaning into country, I dig Buddy and Julie Miller. Other indies I love (and pals of mine) who have toured with big guns such as Lucinda Williams and Cowboy Junkies, are Anne McCue http://www.annemccue.com/ and Jennie Stearns http://jenniestearns.com/ Perhaps you'll find something to love about some of them. A Google search will turn all of them up in a flash. Patti - -- Patti Witten, Acoustic-Rock http://pattiwitten.com FA, AMA, Indiegrrl, JPF, I-Town Records stream the new CD "Sycamore Tryst" http://sycamoretryst.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:52:08 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: religion with some humor >>You either have to believe all that Jesus said, or none of it. You can't pick and choose. Either everything Jesus said in the Bible is true, or it isn't.<< nya uh...imo, the bible is a bunch of writings & interpretations (& compiled by) different people with different agendas so i pick & choose what works for me in living a good life...accepting the whole lot reminds me of the email that seems to be circulating the internet again called 'the bible says it it must be true': >Dear Dr. Laura: Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them. 1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord -- Lev. 1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them? 2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? 3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness -- Lev. 15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence. 4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians? 5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death.! Am I morally obligated to kill him myself? 6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - -- Lev. 11:10-- it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? 7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? 8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die? 9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves? 10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of ! two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go toall the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14) I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.< ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 14:22:24 -0500 From: "Bill Dollinger" Subject: Re: joni covers dylan question I could be wrong, but I think she did it live well before Turbulent Indigo. Also - she has done I Shall Be Released a few times, the most memorable I have seen is on a video I have of her singing it with Cass Elliot and Mary Travers on an old Mama Cass Christmas special. Bill Oh yeah...good call on that one Bill...but it's a really bizarre cover, she starts playing the piano to the "Not To Blame" melody, then jumps in with those lyrics, as if she had the melody but not the lyric and was experimenting with putting words with it. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 12:33:23 -0700 From: Les Irvin Subject: Re: DJRD cover photo At 1/10/2003 11:23 AM, Mags N Brei wrote: >does anyone know who the kid in the tux is on the cover of DJRD? The JMDL Library has a story about the making of the DJRD cover. It reads... Joni "included the shot of a kid who'd been in a session for a previous album. 'He was shy and had never danced before, that's why he's looking at his feet,' she says. " Full story: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=566 Doesn't really answer your question though, does it? :-) Les ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:13:22 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: MARY GAUTHIER njc love her! i have her first 2 cds, not her recent one though... >>Jerry, excited about seeing MARY GAUTHIER tonight. Pazman, do you know her?<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:33:37 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: religion, politics & humor? njc > So, there was a battle in heaven, and lucifer lost, taking a third of the angels from heaven with him, who became demons.< ah ha! this helps to explain how i have come to believe that quite a few so called humans on this planet (specifically so many of our world's religious & political leaders) are from different origins than many of the rest of us... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:24:54 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: hell, jesus - njc - rc joseph, try to get a hold of yourself and be more respectful when addressing me. i don't have much patience with hysterical people and, just as prescribed for such occasions, i summarily resort to a good slap. others on the list that have known me for some time can bear witness to what i say. so if you want to continue discussing this issue, raise the quality of your argumentative skills and lower the volume of your shrieking. if you are interested in my comments on the quotations you used in your message, i will be very pleased to get into every complexity and interpretation. it's up to you. wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 12:29:26 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: DJRD cover photo Les wrote: The JMDL Library has a story about the making of the DJRD cover. It reads... Joni "included the shot of a kid who'd been in a session for a previous album. 'He was shy and had never danced before, that's why he's looking at his feet,' she says. " Full story: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=566 Doesn't really answer your question though, does it? :-) well no, but at least now we know it's not Joni herself. thanks Les, Lori and Jimmy for your help Mags. You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 20:31:50 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: religion, politics & humor? njc I often wonder how fundies get by without a mortgage, credit card or loan or HP agreement or savings accounts. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:47:21 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: NJC Lucifer the music man Don't believe her Vince..not for a second! She played M for me the other night over the phone lines. IS this how you referred to him Susan the other night.. AS M? I like to add Yanni to that list. (I secretly like Abba. I was turned on to their music after seeing the movie Muriel's Wedding) Bree >My dear Vince, I think this explains Eminem! So very sorry! > >Peace, >Susan > > > But Lucifer being in charge of music could explain John > > Tesh and ABBA. > > > > Vince >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. >http://mailplus.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8 is here: Try it free* for 2 months http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:05:15 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: DJRD cover photo NJC In a message dated 1/10/2003 3:30:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, magsnbrei@yahoo.com writes: > well no, but at least now we know it's not Joni herself. > Plus you got Les to de-lurk, which is always pretty cool! :~) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:19:08 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: DJRD cover photo NJC Well the hand is definitely Joni's. Rotate the cover and you will see what I mean. The young man certainly has long fingers? Rotate it slowly. A woman's hand! (wanting to believe this) Bree > > does anyone know who the kid in the tux is on the cover of DJRD? > >I thought ALL the photos on the DJRD cover were Joni ... are we sure >the kid in the tux isn't her? > >Lori _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM: Try the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 10:25:08 +1300 (NZDT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Joseph=20Francis?= Subject: [none] >>joseph, try to get a hold of yourself and be more respectful when addressing me. i don't have much patience with hysterical people and, just as prescribed for such occasions, i summarily resort to a good slap. others on the list that have known me for some time can bear witness to what i say. so if you want to continue discussing this issue, raise the quality of your argumentative skills and lower the volume of your shrieking. if you are interested in my comments on the quotations you used in your message, i will be very pleased to get into every complexity and interpretation. it's up to you. wallyK<< Sorry, I didn't mean to be nasty or anything. It's just that everytime I come to this list I am literally shocked beyond words at what some of you believe. Especially christians. Joseph http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies - - What's on at your local cinema? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 13:34:05 -0800 From: Steve Dulson Subject: last gasp on religion (njc) Anne wrote: >Well, it looks like a bunch or people are packing their >tents and leaving this discussion. We can but hope.... - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:37:25 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: prepare ye - njc rc pc I don't believe I have a relationship with god, Colin, because I don't believe there is a god. I agree very much with your analysis that we are punished BY our sins, not FOR them, and that's very well put. And i would say much more effective and moving than any standard religious teaching. It's karma. Regarding the difference some people on the list have made between expiation of sin and forgiveness by god of sin, we had a case here recently of a Mennonite woman who had persuaded mothers in the local community to bring their children to her, to be beaten with a stick for their bad behaviour, so that god would be able to forgive them. She was reported and prosecuted eventually. But the mothers spoke up on her behalf in court, saying she was providing a vital service by allowing their children to get to heaven, because if they went unpunished, god would not be able to let them in. I can only shake my head. Ironically, it's our intelligence that draws us to religious belief. We can't stand the thought that when we die, we won't exist for all infinity. We can't absorb the non-existence of the 'I'. Yet we are intelligent enough as a species to understand these concepts (infinity, death, I) So we need stories to help us live what might otherwise seem terrifying, empty lives with nothing but infinite darkness ahead. When I read the old testament as a child, I understand the Adam/Eve story to represent the idea that knowledge is not just a gift, but is a curse too, and we should not seek it carelessly. And that this life can be regarded as hell, because we have lost the innocence of animals - we know that we will die, we have self-consciousness, and we know that the "I" will someday not be. This terrifies us, so we either live lives of terror (if we think about it) or ignorance (if we don't think about it). And this was the warning of the authors of the old testament 2,000 years ago. Be careful of knowledge. Thank you to the other atheists on the list for stepping forward! ;-) Mike, you were saying that your atheism doesn't affect your stance on issues like Northern Ireland and the mid-east. It does affect mine, because I don't get drawn into the religious aspect, and both these disputes are based on religious disputes. When the Protestants in Northern Ireland go on their annual marches through the Catholic areas, I just think "morons!" But when they object to being tied to a country in which abortion is illegal, then I respect that fear. So the lack of religious outlook helps me (as I see it) to separate the legitimate grievances from the ones based on superstition and bigotry. Another example: there's a debate as to who's to blame for the second intifada. People on the Left tend to say it was Sharon because of his provocative visit to the Temple Mount. People on the Right tend to say it was the Palestinians, because although they claim it was a spontaneous uprising against Sharon, in fact it was well planned, and the Israeli government had contacted the PLO well in advance of Sharon's visit to check that it would be okay. My thinking is: a plague on both their houses. Sharon was stupid to visit what he knew others regarded as a holy site because he regards it as such himself, and he therefore knew the strength of feeling. And the Palestinians were stupid to care! They could have ignored him. They're not automata. Now hundreds of people are dying because of one old man's visit to an old building. Sarah Colin wrote: in agreement with the above. In a sense we all, athiests, agnostics, believers have a realtionship with god in one way or another. I believ we are 'punished' BY our sins not FOR them. what you sow you reap. An example of what I mean about being punished BY our sins. I knew a woman who was suffering deeply. The reason for her suffering was her bigotry. Her daughter she had not seen for years becasue he not only married out of her faith but also out of her race. This womans desire was to have her daughter back in the fold but minus her husband and children. To me that was the beginning of my undersatanding about being reaping what we saow and being punished by and not for our sins. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:43:1 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: nothing shocking(njc) > Sorry, I didn't mean to be nasty or anything. It's > just that everytime I come to this list I am literally > shocked beyond words at what some of you believe. > Especially christians. > > Joseph What is so shocking about what anyone here believes and why are you singling out Christians? I am shocked that you are shocked. Victor in Ashelanta ps. Isn't "literally shocked beyond words" a contradiction in terms??? NP: The Smiths "Frankly, Mr. Shankly" "Fame, Fame, fatal Fame it can play hideous tricks on the brain but I'd still rather be Famous than righteous or holy, any day" Morrissey - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:48:01 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: prepare ye - njc rc pc I don't believe I have a relationship with god, Colin, because I don't believe there is a god. I agree very much with your analysis that we are punished BY our sins, not FOR them, and that's very well put. And i would say much more effective and moving than any standard religious teaching. It's karma. Regarding the difference some people on the list have made between expiation of sin and forgiveness by god of sin, we had a case here recently of a Mennonite woman who had persuaded mothers in the local community to bring their children to her, to be beaten with a stick for their bad behaviour, so that god would be able to forgive them. She was reported and prosecuted eventually. But the mothers spoke up on her behalf in court, saying she was providing a vital service by allowing their children to get to heaven, because if they went unpunished, god would not be able to let them in. I can only shake my head. Ironically, it's our intelligence that draws us to religious belief. We can't stand the thought that when we die, we won't exist for all infinity. We can't absorb the non-existence of the 'I'. Yet we are intelligent enough as a species to understand these concepts (infinity, death, I) So we need stories to help us live what might otherwise seem terrifying, empty lives with nothing but infinite darkness ahead. When I read the old testament as a child, I understand the Adam/Eve story to represent the idea that knowledge is not just a gift, but is a curse too, and we should not seek it carelessly. And that this life can be regarded as hell, because we have lost the innocence of animals - we know that we will die, we have self-consciousness, and we know that the "I" will someday not be. This terrifies us, so we either live lives of terror (if we think about it) or ignorance (if we don't think about it). And this was the warning of the authors of the old testament 2,000 years ago. Be careful of knowledge. Thank you to the other atheists on the list for stepping forward! ;-) Mike, you were saying that your atheism doesn't affect your stance on issues like Northern Ireland and the mid-east. It does affect mine, because I don't get drawn into the religious aspect, and both these disputes are based on religious disputes. When the Protestants in Northern Ireland go on their annual marches through the Catholic areas, I just think "morons!" But when they object to being tied to a country in which abortion is illegal, then I respect that fear. So the lack of religious outlook helps me (as I see it) to separate the legitimate grievances from the ones based on superstition and bigotry. Another example: there's a debate as to who's to blame for the second intifada. People on the Left tend to say it was Sharon because of his provocative visit to the Temple Mount. People on the Right tend to say it was the Palestinians, because although they claim it was a spontaneous uprising against Sharon, in fact it was well planned, and the Israeli government had contacted the PLO well in advance of Sharon's visit to check that it would be okay. My thinking is: a plague on both their houses. Sharon was stupid to visit what he knew others regarded as a holy site because he regards it as such himself, and he therefore knew the strength of feeling. And the Palestinians were stupid to care! They could have ignored him. They're not automata. Now hundreds of people are dying because of one old man's visit to an old building. Sarah Colin wrote: in agreement with the above. In a sense we all, athiests, agnostics, believers have a realtionship with god in one way or another. I believ we are 'punished' BY our sins not FOR them. what you sow you reap. An example of what I mean about being punished BY our sins. I knew a woman who was suffering deeply. The reason for her suffering was her bigotry. Her daughter she had not seen for years becasue he not only married out of her faith but also out of her race. This womans desire was to have her daughter back in the fold but minus her husband and children. To me that was the beginning of my undersatanding about being reaping what we saow and being punished by and not for our sins. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:48:22 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: prepare - njc - rc Joseph Francis wrote: >But the evidence is out there, plenty of >it, to say that Pope was the only world leader to >speak out against Hitler, and who saved more Jews than >Schindler. I only ask that you please look into the >information from the other point of view before making >up your mind. > > > I was just going through some old email and came across this line. JF, you are full of shit. I speak plainly to be very clear as to what I am saying - that statement is so false as to be nothing but excrement. The numbers of clergy who spent years in concentration camps, such as Martin Neimoller at Dachau, or who were executed by the Nazis, beginning with Dietrich Bonhoeffer, are too vast, too numerous, too filled with martyrs to let that lie alone. Pius spent the war years in luxury in the Vatican and had a long history with the Nazis long before he became pope, when he was vatican Secretary of State. Your religious sentimentality leads to the particular arrogance of the one who is uninformed. The evidence is too vast, too extensive to go through here. And I wasn't going to respond at all, what I have been trying not to do. But then the obscenity of this struck me again, the Jews of Rome in the cattle cars being taken to their deaths on the train tracks that lay so close to the Vatican and the image of the one who said not a word as he lived in luxury and let others go to their slaughter... I seldom am this angry in the JMDL. Very seldom. But I am now. Believe what you want. The evidence is all there and as God is witness, I will stand with reality over sentimentality any day, any time. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:52:42 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: NJC Lucifer the music man Bree Mcdonough wrote: > Don't believe her Vince..not for a second! She [Susan] played M for > me the other night over the phone lines. IS this how you referred to > him Susan the other night.. AS M? That you for outing Susan as being on a first initial basis with Marshall Mathers. She has lived in public denial long enough. > I like to add Yanni to that list. I almost did and am glad you did. > > (I secretly like Abba. I was turned on to their music after seeing > the movie Muriel's Wedding) > God is merciful and there is forgiveness with God. And anyway, we have made an Abba allowance for Jimmy since he quoted so nicely "Of course in Adventures of Priscilla Queen of the Desert, I think it was Terrance Stamp who said "No more fucking ABBA" :~)" Jimmy's words, not mine. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:54:09 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Pius XII, njc rc Laurent, no offence taken. I agree 100 per cent, and I'm laughing here at the analogy which is a very good one. Sarah Laurent wrote: I see no such rigor in the writings of journalists. Reading this book makes me feel like the analysis of historical events by journalists is like having brain surgery performed by a nurse. (no offense to Sarah, she's more informed than most journalists I know). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:54:53 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: Joni covers ReckersL@ebrd.com wrote: >I should have known, nothing escapes you! Bob, I think your obsession is >one of the very best I've ever come across! >I guess that even if I hummed Amelia in the bath and the tape recorder was >accidentially on, you'd know about it before I did! > See Covers Volumn 24, track 6. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 14:02:25 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: last gasp on religion (njc) >> Well, it looks like a bunch or people are packing their >> tents and leaving this discussion. > We can but hope.... Does this mean the Revival is over? ; ) Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:20:05 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: defending your life NJC Emily, that's one of my favourite films too. I loved how they identified one of the most pointless things (a sin) as fear. That thought inspires me every time I see the film, as I have cowardly tendencies which stop me from doing things. By the way, recent research shows that having sex and BEING PREGNANT leads to the growth of new brain cells. So for the next three months, you just might be using 6% of your brain. ;-) Congrats on finishing your dissertation and starting a daughter! Sarah From: Emily Gray Tedrowe . . . "defending your life" by albert brooks--and i had to jump in to say that this movie is amazing. i truly count it as one of my favorite films ever-- written using only 5 % or so of my brain (as per "defending your life"), but now with a completed and defended (yay!) dissertation, and a daughter due to arrive in less than 3 months (!!), ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:26:28 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Bible, njc rc Vince, I remember being taught at college that very early Christians got into the habit of cutting of their penises, as I recall because they were a source of sin and imperfection, rendering the penis-holder less than godlike. Early community leaders had to beg them to stop, and ruled that sex and procreation were to be encouraged, because of a fear that very soon the world would run out of Christians. ;-) I don't know if this is a true story, but it's a good one. Sarah From: "Lavieri, Vince [185776]" Laurent, Jesus also said that if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off, and if your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. I refuse to believe anyone who says they believe *everything* in the Bible unless they are missing their right eye and right hand. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:28:41 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: NJC Lucifer the music man Not to mention Celine Dion, Sarah Brightman and Charlotte Church. . . ;-) Sarah Vince wrote: But Lucifer being in charge of music could explain John Tesh and ABBA. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:48:17 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Joni's old venue Hi Kate, I've read two things about the cafe that Joni used to sing in. It was called the Louis Riel cafe, and I've read that it was situated where Calories now is, but also that it was actually the store next door, now called Home Again, which sells Laura Ashley-style clothes. For example, this from the Saskatoon public library: "Colin Holliday-Scott, co-owner of the Louis Riel Coffee House on Broadway Avenue, once turned down a gig by the then-neophyte singer Joni Mitchell, who lived and attended school here in Saskatoon. Later she did perform at the Louis Riel. . . The Louis Riel Coffee House occupied the space now home to "Home Again" http://www.publib.saskatoon.sk.ca/LHistoryfacts.html#coffeehouse Sarah From: I just received this card and thought some of you might like to see it, so put it up at http://xoetc.antville.org. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:52:59 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Bible, njc rc and sex! (wot, no pc?) Beauty is in the eye of the . . . holder? I'm wondering how the two that looked good were significantly different from the ones (number, I note, unspecified) that didn't. Sarah At 2:38 PM -0800 01/10/2003, Lori Fye wrote: > > Vince, I remember being taught at college that very early Christians >> got into the habit of cutting of their penises, as I recall because >> they were a source of sin and imperfection, rendering the >> penis-holder less than godlike. > >Hmm ... well, anytime I've held one I've generally felt less than >godlike, unless it was a strap-on and then ... oh wait, that's a >different subject altogether! ; ) > >As for them being imperfect, penises (peni?) are usually fairly odd >looking things. I've seen maybe two that I could say looked good. Of >course, beauty is in the eye ... (would that be one eye?) > >> I don't know if this is a true story, but it's a good one. > >A good story, or a good idea? > >Just kidding! >Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:53:24 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Bible, njc rc > Vince, I remember being taught at college that very early Christians > got into the habit of cutting of their penises, as I recall because > they were a source of sin and imperfection, rendering the > penis-holder less than godlike. Hmm ... well, anytime I've held one I've generally felt less than godlike, unless it was a strap-on and then ... oh wait, that's a different subject altogether! ; ) As for them being imperfect, penises (peni?) are usually fairly odd looking things. I've seen maybe two that I could say looked good. Of course, beauty is in the eye ... (would that be one eye?) > I don't know if this is a true story, but it's a good one. A good story, or a good idea? Just kidding! Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 14:54:21 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: prepare ye - njc rc pc Sarah wrote: > Ironically, it's our intelligence that draws us to religious belief. > We can't stand the thought that when we die, we won't exist for all > infinity. We can't absorb the non-existence of the 'I'. Yet we are > intelligent enough as a species to understand these concepts > (infinity, death, I) So we need stories to help us live what might > otherwise seem terrifying, empty lives with nothing but infinite > darkness ahead. Is it our intelligence? Or our gigantic egos? Methinks it's more the latter. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:55:44 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: nothing shocking(njc) In a message dated 1/10/2003 4:44:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, waytoblu@mindspring.com writes: > I am shocked that you are shocked. Really? Victor, I am shocked that you are shocked that he is shocked. Bob NP: Jane's Addiction, "Nothing's Shocking" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 14:57:19 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: prepare ye - njc rc pc Sarah wrote: > Ironically, it's our intelligence that draws us to religious belief. > We can't stand the thought that when we die, we won't exist for all > infinity. We can't absorb the non-existence of the 'I'. Yet we are > intelligent enough as a species to understand these concepts > (infinity, death, I) So we need stories to help us live what might > otherwise seem terrifying, empty lives with nothing but infinite > darkness ahead. Is it our intelligence? Or our gigantic egos? Methinks it's more the latter. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:04:26 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Favourite poems njc Mark posting his favourite poem made me think of mine, so I'm posting it in case anyone else would like it. It's by an English poet called Simon Armitage, and here's a bit of blurb first from an interview with him about the poem. Sarah SIMON ARMITAGE: This poem goes back to the time when I owned a dog and there'd never really been a dog in the family before and when I got this thing I wasn't sure what to do with it. And it was okay to begin with and then it sort of discovered that it owned teeth and that I owned furniture and these two things came together very expensively so I started writing lots of poems about how you could get rid of a dog in the middle of the night without anybody knowing. That's the anecdotal side. On a theoretical level I wanted to write a poem about things that dog you all your life, things that track you, tail you, haunt you - and there were some domestic circumstances in my life to which this poem is appropriate - but they're hidden and concealed within the poem. BEFORE YOU CUT LOOSE Before you cut loose, put dogs on the list of difficult things to lose. Those dogs ditched on the North York Moors or the Sussex Downs or hurled like bags of sand from rented cars have followed their noses to market towns and bounced like balls into their owners' arms. I heard one story of a dog that swam to the English coast from the Isle of Man, and a dog that carried eggs and bacon and a morning paper from the village surfaced umpteen leagues and two years later, bacon eaten but the eggs unbroken, newsprint dry as tinder, to the letter. A dog might wander the width of the map to bury its head in its owner's lap, crawl the last mile to dab a bleeding paw against its own front door. To die at home, a dog might walk its four legs to the bone. You can take off the tag and the collar but a dog wears one coat and one colour. A dog got rid of - that's a dog for life. No dog howls like a dog kicked out at night. Try looking a dog like that in the eye. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 18:08:45 EST From: Harry83house@aol.com Subject: Re: Medley Bob, the 1968 "Circle/Green" medley is just beautiful. Thanks for sending it on. Its also cool to hear the early, sli-i-ightly different melody of "Little Green". Its almost like Joni hasn't found that last piece of the puzzle yet. Of course, one can only imagine what it took for her to write it. It sucked me in the very first time I heard it. What a great song "Little Green" is! Thanks again, Bob! all the best, Harry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 18:10:11 -0500 From: vince Subject: njc Sarah [a good Biblical name :-) ] the reason that I often delight in the company of nonbelievers or atheists by any other name is for their very profound insights through which, in my opinion, God speaks, for you see things that religion blinds us to. You write: > When I read the old testament as a child, I understand the Adam/Eve > story to represent the idea that knowledge is not just a gift, but is > a curse too, and we should not seek it carelessly. And that this life > can be regarded as hell, because we have lost the innocence of animals > - we know that we will die, we have self-consciousness, and we know > that the "I" will someday not be. This terrifies us, so we either live > lives of terror (if we think about it) or ignorance (if we don't think > about it). And this was the warning of the authors of the old > testament 2,000 years ago. Be careful of knowledge. You are very close to what Bonhoeffer was getting at in his writings on temptation and sin. He would have left out the words "of animals" and leave it that we live in lost innocence by the acquisition of knowledge. A lot of people of faith cannot grasp that but you have drawn the same conclusion as one of the greatest theologians of the 20th century - and that is as it should be. People of faith have much to learn from people without faith, for you see things that we cannot. People of faith too often have blinders on and cannot see what you see. And that is way, way proved by the following: > Another example: there's a debate as to who's to blame for the second > intifada. People on the Left tend to say it was Sharon because of his > provocative visit to the Temple Mount. People on the Right tend to > say it was the Palestinians, because although they claim it was a > spontaneous uprising against Sharon, in fact it was well planned, and > the Israeli government had contacted the PLO well in advance of > Sharon's visit to check that it would be okay. > > My thinking is: a plague on both their houses. Sharon was stupid to > visit what he knew others regarded as a holy site because he regards > it as such himself, and he therefore knew the strength of feeling. And > the Palestinians were stupid to care! They could have ignored him. > They're not automata. > > Now hundreds of people are dying because of one old man's visit to an > old building. That last sentence is so profound I will remember it all of my life, and you can bet I'll use it, too, and maybe not always give credit! :-) That is what is so fucking wrong with religion. If anything, faith should have taught us that there are no "holy" " places," But the corruption of faith into religion is that we have ended up with old buildings that old men visit and people dying. You have said it so well, so in a nutshell. I have criticized other things you have said, but here, I must, I willingly proclaim that you have spoken the truth that we need to here and which reminds us of the price of religion running amuck. Terry spoke of being a Jewish secular humanist. Susan said some good things too. In a non patronizing way, I want to embrace all of that as being exactly right, and that which I, a person of faith, identify with. I think any person of God must be first a humanist, and following Bonhoeffer, secular. I am glad and rejoice in every non believer, every atheist, who has posted for in each person's gracious sharing of their beliefs, they have said things that we all need to heart and pointed to things lacking in religion as oft practiced. Thank you all, beginning with Anne who may have kicked this off with her question, for much wisdom has been spoken in response and I want to acknowledge it. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:11:07 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Bible, njc rc and sex! (wot, no pc?) > Beauty is in the eye of the . . . holder? LOL! Yeah. > I'm wondering how the two that looked good were significantly > different from the ones (number, I note, unspecified) that didn't. Oh geez ... dare I go there? Well, one was equipped with remarkably even testicles. (I'm big on symmetry.) The other member(s) were smooth, with what I consider to be a nice head (corona? glans? what's the proper term?). Lori, almost blushing and now leaving for a concert (Judith Ingolfsson) and then the new lesbian bar in DC ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 18:17:22 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: nothing shocking(njc) SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 1/10/2003 4:44:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, >waytoblu@mindspring.com writes: > > > >>I am shocked that you are shocked. >> >> > >Really? Victor, I am shocked that you are shocked that he is shocked. > >Bob > > > Really? I am very shocked that Bob is shocked that Victor is shocked that he is shocked. And this is the house that Jack built. I thought the only thing that would shock Bob would be Vic Damone doing a cover of Sire of Sorrow. I thought the only thing that would shock Victor would be an album named Yanni Sings the Blues.. I thought that the only thing that would shock Wally is a Birgit Nilsson doing a cover of Raised on Robbery. I have no idea what could shock Les so much that he would post twice in one day, but we can keep trying to find out. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #20 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)