From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #17 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, January 10 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 017 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Top cds of 2002 *lets try this again! [Rusty10113@aol.com] re: prepare - njc - rc [=?iso-8859-1?q?Joseph=20Francis?= ] re: prepare - njc - rc [=?iso-8859-1?q?Joseph=20Francis?= ] hell, jesus - njc - rc [=?iso-8859-1?q?Joseph=20Francis?= ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 23:26:16 EST From: Rusty10113@aol.com Subject: Re: Top cds of 2002 *lets try this again! Hi-great list, thanks for the reminder, Alanis and Aimee Mann had great records this year! Forgot to mention them on my list... Mitch in NYC ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 18:31:44 +1300 (NZDT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Joseph=20Francis?= Subject: re: prepare - njc - rc Bob wrote: - >I believe in God, but I don't believe in Hell or >Satan. I think Satan is man's creation in order to >manipulate people & behavior. Now, hang on there Bob. You believe in God, you believe in Jesus Christ, you liked Jesus Christ Superstar. WHy do you think God sent Jesus to earth to die for us? Do you believe in the Bible? The Bible teaches that there is a Hell. Do you only believe in some of it? How can you do that? You either have to believe all that Jesus said, or none of it. You can't pick and choose. Either everything Jesus said in the Bible is true, or it isn't. Joseph http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies - - What's on at your local cinema? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 03:08:34 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: hell, jesus - njc - rc jesus never said that there was hell. there are so many things that jesus never said (as per the gospels) that i wonder where so many people get their ideas. hell is such a small thing! how could jesus in all his glory come to earth and die for such a meager invention of mediocre human minds. god is infinite, absolute and incomprehensibly loving. no crime, no sin, no offense can ever surpass the dimension of his unbound forgiveness. belief in hell contradicts belief in god. if there is hell, then god is human. there is no hell. to me this is pretty much QED'ed. i am a roman catholic. a radical catholic, if you want. i follow the teachings of jesus, whom i love with all my heart and soul and whom i put above and beyond any personal goal or aspiration. i rejoice in his teachings and i celebrate everything he stands for. i go to mass, i take communion, and i believe he is god. i believe in and love god the father, the son and the holy spirit. i pray to all three persons and i pray to one true god, ruler of a world without end. the teachings of the old testament were circumscribed to the times and politics of their era. they were necessary to ensure the survival and individuation of the tribes of israel. as a christian, i believe in jesus' message: "i have come to give you a new law, that you should love one another." to me and to many other christians, the old testament is worthy of study inasmuch as it prophesies the coming of jesus as savior and redeemer of mankind. but i admit to you all that i couldn't care less about all the laws and rules that have to do with sexual behavior, dressing codes and cuisine contained in the old testament. i wear clothes of mixed fibers, i eat pork and i am a homosexual (although i have never lied with a man as if he were a woman, which seems to be abomination though i find it simply schizophrenic). i am willing and very happy to discuss my beliefs and my positions as a roman catholic and i truly believe that anne's question was very well intentioned. i won't get into any arguments, though, regarding my right to be who i am and/or believe in what i believe. i have come to my own theological conclusions after years of analysis, prayer and work. incidentally, as a roman catholic i feel part of a NATION. i also believe that the "government" of this nation has long been usurped by greedy, shameless and pharisaical individuals. many popes have been criminals, and i don't care much for our current one. i pray for him, but i wouldn't move a finger to further his cause. ditto fundamentalists of any kind, including the notorious opus dei, so powerful and so harmful in argentina and many spanish speaking countries. wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:12:26 +1300 (NZDT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Joseph=20Francis?= Subject: re: prepare - njc - rc Colin, I can see that you and I just aren't going to agree on this, but oh, well, that's OK. You just don't understand where I'm coming from. You said something about "God has to punish someone". You are confusing forgiveness of sin with expiation of sin. God forgives sins, yes, but there also must be a price to pay. eg, even if a criminal is sorry, he still has to serve his time. God is a forgiving and merciful God, yes, but He is also a God of Justice. EVen writing this, I know you still won't understand. One of the reasons I do not like philosophy much is that it destroys faith. Man just HAS to try and explain and understand everything - but you can't. No more than my dog can understand how it is suddenly light when I flick a lightswitch. Maybe I am lucky, in the I have seen miracles. We will all understand one day, though. Some of the christian prophets today (yes people still prophesy) speak of a time of trial coming soon called the 'mini-judgement' in which everyone on earth will see themselves as God sees them. This is because God doesn't want anyone to perish - he wants everyone to have a chance. I know you will probably poo-poo this idea, too, but thats OK :) As far as Vince and the Pope Pius thing - I think you can only judge whether something is true or not by the effect it has on others. eg, 'you can only judge a tree by it's fruit'. Would the New York Times have written in 1941 - "The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas.... He is about the only ruler left on the Continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all." if Pius were 'Hitlers Pope'? Would Golda Meir, later a prime minister of Israel, and leaders of Jewish communities in Hungary, Turkey, Italy, Romania and the United States have thanked the pope for saving hundreds of thousands of Jews? No. Would Einstein have written in December 23, 1940 issue of Time magazine on page 38, "Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks... Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly."? Would the charity and work of Pope Pius XII during World War II have so impressed the Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli, that in 1944 he became a Catholic? He also changed his name to Israel Eugenio Zolli, Eugenio being the Pope's name. As I said, none of these people (and MANY more) would have said or done these things if the pope had been "Hitler's Pope". You can only judge history by it's effect on people. Vince, you claim to have a shelf full of books on the subject, but I think only from one point of view. You read what you want to read, and who wouldn't? But the evidence is out there, plenty of it, to say that Pope was the only world leader to speak out against Hitler, and who saved more Jews than Schindler. I only ask that you please look into the information from the other point of view before making up your mind. Joseph. http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies - - What's on at your local cinema? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 01:25:15 -0500 From: Cactustree78@aol.com Subject: joni/tori This is what Mtv.com had to say about Tori Amos's latest album SCARLET'S WALK is a welcome return to form. Ostensibly a grand concept album based on an American travelogue, the disc is, at its core, simply a collection of detailed relationship songs in the vein of early Joni Mitchell. Peace and love to you all. ***kevin*** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 00:44:58 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: 'prepare' njc PC No, doesn't do away with the Palestinians. The idea would be that any Palestinian refugee would settle in the Occupied Territories (Palestine), or else in the country where they are currently resident and were perhaps born (Israel, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon) and would become citizens of those countries. What can't happen is that every single person claiming to be a Palestinian refugee be allowed to settle in Israel, and yet this is a PLO demand. It's impossible, and unfair. Many (most) of those refugees were born in other Arab countries and should be allowed to become citizens of those countries. To settle in Israel, they should be required to show they were born there, or at least that their parents were born there. Hope you're feeling better by the way. That does sound weird and painful. Sarah Colin wrote: your does does away with the Palestinians. that is smart. I can think of a reason or two why this idea would not work. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 00:47:26 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Prepare, NJC PC What Feuerbach meant was - the more we attribute to god, the less we can attribute to ourselves. So we shouldn't attribute anything to a god. WE are god. So I think he'd agree with you. Sarah Sarah wrote: > I believe in the maxim of Feuerbach: "For god to be everything, man > must be nothing". Colin wrote: I don't agree with that. I think we are God. You and me and everyone else. If God is the ocean, we are raindrops. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 00:54:20 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: prepare njc rc Yup, I have similar memories. I was told by parents that god was everywhere, saw everything, knew everything. To my 4 year old mind, that meant he was in the bathroom when I went to pee, was everywhere in the bathroom, including in the toilet, so when I peed, he was looking up at my bare bum. That terrified and humiliated me. Sounds funny now, but it wasn't at the time. And there were many other similar things I was told, all of which frightened me. I agree that teaching children things like this is nothing short of child abuse - particularly telling them that they've been bad, and that there's a god - a huge, all-powerful all-seeing monster figure who will love you if you're good, but might send you to hell if you've been bad, so you better make sure you don't die tonight, and in case you might, you'd better beg him to forgive you before you go to sleep. That's a dreadful thing to say to a child. Sarah Colin wrote: I recall only too well the fear instilled in me by nuns and priests who taught me as a child. How fear and accusations of badness that were thrust upon any child that dared question the validity of their words. To do this to children is nothing short of abuse. There was no reason and no love and only the strong need to appear to have power and control. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 01:55:14 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: NJC thoughts on religion I've read some really good post lately and just wanted to add my own thoughts to this thread. First, if I go way out in left field my intentions are not to put down anyone's beliefs. OK, I do believe in God, and I do believe in Jesus, however the bible is another story. If you look at creation you will see everything is in opposites, land/sea, dark/light north/south, etc. So the creator (God if you will) made good/evil. The bible says that when God created man/woman he gave us a free will. Now the angles were also created by God, but they didn't get free will. Yet Satin rose up against God. How did he do that without free will? I think Satin is only another name for free will.....or choice. Now, if indeed Satin was an angle, and lived in heaven, and spoke to God why would he leave. Heaven is perfect, how can an angle with no free will want more than perfection? Next, Adam and Eve, once they left the garden they had two sons. Cain killed Able over who's sacrifice was more pleasing to God. One gave a lamb, one things he had harvested. I have a big problem with this as history has proven we were hunter gathers for many years. But these two first born humans, farmed, built alters, and had control over fire. Next, the great flood. Now history does show this happened. But think of the biggest ship we have today, and try putting two of everything on it, plus food. Why couldn't God just recreate the animals? I do not doubt for one second there is a God. Or that God has not come in human form like Christ. I believe Christ died so we may live, to show us that no amount of pain, or hate should change what we believe to be right. It was Christ that lost his temper when there were merchants, and gamblers in his fathers house, and it was the keepers of laws that gambled for his clothes as he hung from the cross. But I do believe that man has changed, reworded, redefined the bible for societal needs. There is a life after this one is over, I believe that to be true. I believe there is a time for pacifistic action, and I believe there is a time to fight, kill, or die for the good of all humankind. Thanks for putting up with my late night ramblings. KaseyGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:57:34 +1300 (NZDT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Joseph=20Francis?= Subject: hell, jesus - njc - rc Wally wrote - >>jesus never said that there was hell. there are so many things that jesus never said (as per the gospels) that i wonder where so many people get their ideas. hell is such a small thing! how could jesus in all his glory come to earth and die for such a meager invention of mediocre human minds. god is infinite, absolute and incomprehensibly loving. no crime, no sin, no offense can ever surpass the dimension of his unbound forgiveness. belief in hell contradicts belief in god. if there is hell, then god is human. there is no hell<<< WHAT!!?? Are you kidding? Have you ever read the Bible?! Jesus talked about Hell *a lot* First off, he confronts the Devil himself in Luke 4, then he talks of the devil in John 8: 44 "Your father is the devil, and you do exactly what he wants. He has always been a murderer and a liar. There is nothing truthful about him. He speaks on his own, and everything he says is a lie. Not only is he a liar himself, but he also the father of all lies". About Hell: "..if you say someone is worthless, you are in danger of the fires of hell" - Matthew 5:22 "It is better to lose one part of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into Hell" - Matt 5:29 "don't be afraid of people. They can kill you, but they cannot harm your soul. Instead, you should fear God who can destroy both your body and soul in hell" - Matt 10:28 "..The rich man also died and was buried. He went to Hell, and was suffering terribly ... He said to Abraham, "have pity on me!" [...] Abraham said [...]"there is a deep ditch between us, and no one from either side may cross over" - Luke 16: 22 - "If your eye cause you to sin, get rid of it. You would be better off to go into God's Kingdom with only one eye than to have two eyes and be throw into hell. The worms there never die, and the fire never stops burning" - Mark 9:47 Shall I go on? Jesus talks about hell a lot in the gospels. Do you believe everything he says, or only some of it? You can't pick and choose. Either Jesus is the son of God and tells the WHOLE truth, or he is a liar. You can't say "oh, he wasn't being serious there". God is a god of love, yes, but he is also a god of justice. By the way, "fear of God" in the above passages to me means a healthy respect. WHy do you think Jesus came to earth to die for us if there was no hell, and we would all go to heaven anyway? Do you know why He died for us at Easter? I am sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense otherwise. Joseph. http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies - - What's on at your local cinema? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 02:01:53 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: January 10 1968: Joni performs at the Club 47 in Cambridge, Massachusetts. - ---- For a comprehensive reference to Joni's appearances, consult Joni Mitchell ~ A Chronology of Appearances: http://www.jonimitchell.com/appearances.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 02:01:53 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: January 10 On January 10 the following item was published: 1970: "Joni Still Feels The Pull Of The Country" - Melody Maker (Interview, with photographs) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=179 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 23:04:22 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Looking for... Craig Harris, if you are here, please email me - (I lost your address in a recent computer crash). Sorry for the NJC Kakki ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #17 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)