From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #16 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, January 9 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 016 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Deuteronomy njc [colin ] Re: Prepare, NJC [=?iso-8859-1?q?Joseph=20Francis?= ] McGarrigles NJC WAS Re: Rufus Wainwright [Steve Dulson ] Re: McGarrigles NJC WAS Re: Rufus Wainwright [Mags N Brei ] Prepare, NJC PC [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: Rufus Wainwright [Richard Goldman ] Pius XII, njc [vince ] Atheists - God Bless Them! NJC [vince ] Re: Deuteronomy njc [vince ] Re: Prepare, NJC PC [sl.m@shaw.ca] Best 10 CD's of 2002 NJC [vince ] Re: Rufus Wainwright [Little Bird ] RE: WEIRD NJC ["Heather" ] re: prepare - njc rc [=?iso-8859-1?q?Joseph=20Francis?= ] Re: Bible quotes (njc) ["kakki" ] Re: Pigs NJC ["kakki" ] Re: prepare - njc rc [colin ] Re: Prepare, NJC PC [colin ] Re: prepare - njc rc ["chuty001" ] Re: WEIRD NJC [colin ] Re: prepare - njc ["chuty001" ] Re: Atheists - God Bless Them! NJC [Susan Guzzi ] Re: prepare ye - njc rc [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 21:47:49 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Deuteronomy njc >Colin replies: 3 whole books are minute passages? > >That is very unfair to say there are 3 "whole" books of >that type of stuff. > Well I admit i am not as smart aas you, however, i spent thisevening reading those three books. They certainly seemed like books to me, rather than minute passges. However, I agrew itht eh rest of what you wrote. > one >should pick and chose a few passages out of someone else's >religious texts and try and make that stand for the whole, >as is happening a lot recently with Islam and the Q'ran. > don't forget Xtians do this too. In fact i would have all of them do.(meaning Judaism and Isalm and Xtian) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:59:51 +1300 (NZDT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Joseph=20Francis?= Subject: Re: Prepare, NJC Thanks Laurent for all your info about the PLO. Very interesting. >>Could you please list your sources for this info. Here are some links - http://net2.netacc.net/~mafg/nazi02.htm http://www.corax.org/revisionism/admissions/010904popepius.html http://users.binary.net/polycarp/piusxii.html http://ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n5p26_Martinez.html Joseph. http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies - - What's on at your local cinema? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 17:12:47 EST From: Fauchja@aol.com Subject: Re: Rufus Wainwright I like Love over and Over, MataPeoia, and the MacGarrigle Hour ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 17:35:35 -0500 From: "Jerry Notaro" Subject: RE: Rufus Wainwright The McGarrigle Hour is one of my favorite cd's and DVD's. But the more I've been listening to Rufus live, the more I dislike him as a person. Jerry - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Fauchja@aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 5:13 PM To: Harry83house@aol.com; richard2sf@earthlink.net Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Rufus Wainwright I like Love over and Over, MataPeoia, and the MacGarrigle Hour ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:42:24 -0800 From: Steve Dulson Subject: McGarrigles NJC WAS Re: Rufus Wainwright Deb wrote: >I also like their 2nd album, "Dancer with Bruised Knees" - a bit >quirkier than the first one. This one is definitely my fave. The McGarrigles are great live, too! - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 12:49:33 +1300 (NZDT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Joseph=20Francis?= Subject: Bible quotes and Pius XII, njc Of course, I don't agree with this at all. This book amounts to not only inaccuracy but also libel (if a dead person can be libelled?). It seems to be a fashion at the moment to write anti-catholic books. As one of the reviews on the site states - Cornwell [the writer] does tell a compelling--and critical--story. But "Hitler's Pope" pretends to have the scholarly backup it just doesn't have. Frequently, Cornwell quotes without even naming sources. Even when he does name sources, they are often second and third hand. What makes Cornwell's book disturbing is that he maintians his argument that the Catholic Church was cowardly in failing to criticize the fascist governments of the Second World War, but then recounts the enormous risk that Pius XII made in his role in the assasination attempt against Hitler. Is this really Hitler's Pope? See my last post with links . I hardly think that prominent Jewish leaders would have thanked the Pope and even converted to Catholicsm (Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli became a Catholic in 1944 after being so impressed with Pius work during the war), if the Pope had been "Hitler's Pope". Rubbish. Joseph. http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies - - What's on at your local cinema? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:55:24 -0500 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: I'll take Manhattan gordon: as a new york jmdler, i'd like to see a get-together while you're here. in september i convinced some uk-jmdlers to join a gang at xunta, a very fine tapas bar in the east village, and a great, delicious and fairly cheap time was had by all. maybe it's time for a new visit, with some newer jmdlers. kay is out of town (sweden, actually). debra shea? anyone else? i suggest sunday, the 12th, kind of early (like 6 pm). or early next week. patrick np - rufus wainright - poses >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of >Gordon Mackie >Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 4:50 AM >To: joni@smoe.org >Subject: I'll take Manhattan > > >Dear NYC Jmdlers > >I will be in NYC from this Saturday evening till Wednesday and then >from the following Thursday till Saturday. If you wanna meet a member >from the Scottish chapter,let me know...asap...I think I have left >this a little bit late but not been around for a while. > >Oh...and Floridians....I will be near St Pete Beach (Tierra Verde) in >between my two stays in NYC...so if you wanna meet, let me know > >Gordon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:18:13 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: McGarrigles NJC WAS Re: Rufus Wainwright Steve wrote: <<>> Yes they are wonderful in concert. I saw them in the late 70's at Hamilton Place, Hamilton, Ontario because friends of mine had tickets they couldn't use. It was a fantastic show. Lots of tears in the audience that night . Mags. You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 19:23:52 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: (NJC)Re: Long good-bye, short hello --- FMYFL@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/9/2003 10:14:45 AM Eastern > Standard Time, > harp@louislynch.com writes: > > > It's Harper Lou, longlost Joniphile, correspondent > and occasional = > > nemesis! > > > Welcome back Lou !!! [...] > Looking forward to reading your posts again. > > (Maybe Don Rowe will return again too) Welcome back, LL. Glad to hear you can make a living off your music, even if you're not rich (yet.) I wish Rowe would come back too. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 00:28:58 +0000 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: I'll take Manhattan (NJC) On Thursday, Jan 9, 2003, at 23:55 Europe/London, patrick leader wrote: > as a new york jmdler, i'd like to see a get-together while you're > here. in > september i convinced some uk-jmdlers to join a gang at xunta, a very > fine > tapas bar in the east village, and a great, delicious and fairly cheap > time > was had by all. Gordon: take up Patrick's offer. The food was great, as were the cocktails. The company wasn't up to much though *grin* (Seriously, missing you guys in NYC...) - --Chris Marshall chrisAThatstand.org (AIM: Chr15Marshall) "The hearth rug of joy has been yanked from beneath my feet, and as the cress seeds of self doubt germinate in the beer-sodden student carpet of my mind, I lay my face gently atop the threadbare pillow of despair." (Inspired by Douglas Adams book titles, and, well, other stuff) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 18:31:59 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Prepare, NJC PC Laurent, thanks for sending all that information about the PLO. I would add one thing: I believe Arafat declared the PLO charter - the parts that refer to the destruction of Israel - as "caduc" meaning null and void, in December 1988. He had to do this to be allowed to enter America to attend a meeting of the U.N. Having said that, he did it with a wave of his hand and a little smile, as though it wasn't really an issue. I would say that the debate on this list about what the bible does or doesn't say shows that a Middle East solution can't and shouldn't be based on anything in the bible, or on any other religious text. I'm beginning to get worried here: am I really the only atheist on the list?? Colin, I know you're no fan of organized religion, but you believe in a higher power. I don't, or at least I'm agnostic regarding that. I wouldn't want to say that everything we see is all that exists. But I also find a belief in god (in any traditional sense) as basically superstition. I believe in the maxim of Feuerbach: "For god to be everything, man must be nothing". We should trust ourselves and our own judgement and sort out life on this earth by ourselves, with no help from gods, real or imagined. Regarding the mid-east, I believe the U.N (or, if they won't, Britain and America) should impose a solution, and back it up with force. And forget who was there first. It's too late to argue that now. For me, the solution would be something like: 1. Israel should withdraw to its pre-1967 borders (but bearing in mind that they won the extra land - the so-called Occupied Territories - fairly and squarely in a war they did not start, and that should be acknowledged); 2. Palestinians must give up the demands that everyone now labelled a "Palestinian refugee" should be allowed to return to Israel. That would lead to millions of Arabs descending on Israel, and would de facto lead to the destruction of Israel. The overwhelming majority of so-called Palestinian refugees have never even been to Palestine or Israel. They were born in other Arab countries, and are only labelled "Palestinian" because those other countries refuse to grant them citizenship. This is in part due to the PLO's insistence that anyone born to Palestinians is Palestinian, not Syrian if born in Syria, not Jordanian if born in Jordan. And it's also in part due to the other Arab countries wanting to keep the Palestinian crisis alive and not wanting them to assimilate. 3. Arab countries in which Palestinian refugees currently reside should be strongly encouraged to extend citizenship to them, particularly if they were born there, and should allow them to work as doctors, lawyers etc, which they are presently not allowed to do. The encouragement should take the form of withholding aid money if they refuse. 4. The Israelis must give up the law of return, which grants any Jew, or spouse of a Jew, or even grandchild of the spouse of a Jew, the right to become an Israeli citizen. This leads to the spectacle of people with strong Glaswegian accents, who have been living in Israel for three weeks -- whose mothers or grandmothers were Jewish but who themselves may never have practised the religion or even thought about it -- being helped to build houses on land which the United Nations has ruled belongs to Palestinians, some of whom may actually have been born on that land. That is patently unfair. It's a law that is based on a particular reading of religious texts, and it has no place (in my view) in a 21st century settlement of a very complex issue. 5. Any imposed settlement should completely ignore the "we were here first" issue. If this principle were to be applied universally, it would mean that Italians could come over to Britain and claim ownership of some of our land. As could the French, the Celts and the Vikings. Aboriginal Indians could kick Canadians out, and white Brits could kick blacks out. Claims based on "we were here first" lead to madness. 6. The United Nations should pick an arbitrary date - January 1st 2004, say - and should rule that anyone who is a citizen of Israel or the Occupied Territories on that date is a citizen of Israel. After that date, anyone wishing to become a citizen can apply and will be accepted on the basis of a need, if there is one, for that particular person's skill, regardless of race or religion. 7. Jerusalem would be ruled by the central government. Holy sites of importance to all three religions would be administered by a special government committee, with representatives of each religion on the committee, as well as philosophers, historians and other scholars with no religion, overseen by a similar U.N. committee to check for balance and fairness. Jews will argue that this might eventually lead to the end of Israel being a predominantly Jewish state, and yes, it might, but will it realistically? Immigration can be restricted. Israeli citizens can be encouraged to multiply and to stay. The state of Israel as a Jewish state could last for a very long time. But I would also say that perhaps a debate is needed as to whether having a particular country, by law, as a Jewish, Christian, Islamic (or whatever) state is justifiable in this modern - and I would hope, post-religious - era. Because I think this new Israeli state would need a constitution that stressed the common humanity of its citizens, and not any particular religion. So that's my two cents' worth - a proposed solution to the mid-east conflict, no less! ;-) And in less time that it takes a pig to have an orgasm. Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:32:22 -0800 From: Richard Goldman Subject: Re: Rufus Wainwright Hi Harry, To my knowledge, Joni has not toured or performed with the McGarrigle Sisters, and definitely not with Rufus, unless someone else has more information? The albums of theirs that I have and love are: Heartbeats Accelerating, and The McGarrigle Hour (which features not only Anna and Kate, but their other sister, Jane McGarrigle and Kate's ex-husband, Loudon Wainwright III, and Loudon and Kate's kids Rufus and Martha Wainwright, Anna's daughter Lily Lankin, Chiam Tennenbaum on fiddle, and Linda Ronstadt and EmmyLou Harris. It is also available on DVD and video and is a super-special gem.) I don't have the other McGarrigle Sister CD's, but you can see their whole discography and other stuff on their website: http://www.mcgarrigles.com Richard in San Francisco n.p. John Cameron Mitchell - "Wig In A Box", from "Hedwig and the Angry Inch" At 10:29 AM -0500 1/9/03, Harry83house@aol.com wrote: >Richard! I saw the PBS Broadcast of "A DEATH IN AN AMERICAN FAMILY" >about Lance Loud the other night, too. Rufus' version of OVER THE >RAINBOW with his mother Kate accompanying him at the funeral was so >beautiful and moving. The whole show packed quite a wallop, >emotionally speaking. Anyway, I have a question...has Joni ever >done any recording or touring with Rufus' mother and aunt, Kate and >Anna McGarrigle? Plus, can anyone recommend any of The McGarrigle >sisters' albums. I see their names pop up in some Top 100 Album >lists and wonder about them, but can't find them in the record >shops. Were they ever "big" in the states? Just curious. Best , >Harry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 19:52:14 -0500 From: vince Subject: Pius XII, njc Joseph Francis wrote: >Of course, I don't agree with this at all. This book >amounts to not only inaccuracy but also libel (if a >dead person can be libelled?). >It seems to be a fashion at the moment to write >anti-catholic books. As one of the reviews on the site >states - > Oh come on, The old "they are picking on me defense." >Cornwell [the writer] does tell a compelling--and >critical--story. But "Hitler's Pope" pretends to have >the scholarly backup it just doesn't have. Frequently, >Cornwell quotes without even naming sources. Even when >he does name sources, they are often second and third >hand. > Untrue. And much material came from the Vatican archives. It is an impressive piece of scholarship. > >What makes Cornwell's book disturbing is that he >maintians his argument that the Catholic Church was >cowardly in failing to criticize the fascist >governments of the Second World War, but then recounts >the enormous risk that Pius XII made in his role in >the assasination attempt against Hitler. Is this >really Hitler's Pope? > Pius was in no way involved in the Admiral Cannaris conspiracy to assassinate Hitler, in no way. In no way. As well, the book does not suggest cowardice of the Church but rather Pius' lack of concern at best and tacit approval of measures against the Jews - not including the gas chambers, but by that time the road had been paved - because of Pius believed that fascism was a great defense against communism. Lest us not forget who negotiated and signed the concordat with the Nazis. > >See my last post with links . > If you want to play links games, I have a wall full of books that I can give the links to. I have been studying the role of all of the Church - Roman, Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox, in Holocaust since 1972. >I hardly think that prominent Jewish leaders would >have thanked the Pope and even converted to Catholicsm >(Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli became a Catholic >in 1944 after being so impressed with Pius work during >the war), if the Pope had been "Hitler's Pope". > So in the world of diplomacy there is a kiss-ass honorary awards given back and forth as part of the game. I sure Henry Kissinger has a closet full of awards, too. And because the Vatican has kept secret its archives, the depth of the involvement of Pius was not fully realized. There were many people of faith who resisted Holocaust and many paid with their lives. Pius is no way resisted anything but what he saw as encroachments on his papal power, the main concern of his pontificate. As long as we deny the past and deny responsibility, we fool ourselves and dishonor the dead. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 20:18:23 -0500 From: vince Subject: Atheists - God Bless Them! NJC It would be only an exercise in defining precisely some words that you use here to find much disagreement from me. I have no problems with atheists, non-believers, skeptics, or agnostics, and in fact learn much from them. And enjoy them often far more than the pious. We certainly cannot live with expecting a god, any god, to be a deus ex machina who is going to pull our chestnuts out of the fire. As Bonhoeffer wrote (pastor, theologian, plotter in the assassination attempt, and killed by the Nazis), we live in a world come up age, a world that in which we have found religion to be empty and it impossible to believe in the old ways anymore, which were probably all cultural conditioning anyway. And we must take responsibility for our lives, our decisions, our choices, and quit blaming things on a god. Feurbach is well respected in the theologians that I value most. The fact that you fall on the different side of the God fence than I fall is merely happenstance, not a statement about anything such as one is right and one is wrong. I respect highly atheists and a local atheist in our community once wrote in the newspaper that I "wasn't bad" for a pastor, something I took as high praise. Atheism is a legitimate response to the question of God. And for Anne, my response to your question: Faith is not be a matter of agreeing to a series of statements, agreeing to a set of intellectual propositions, some or many or all of which may be questionable to a thinking person. Faith is about living as if every other person is equal and worthy and doing what one can for the sake of others. And other than the word "faith" are people of faith and atheists that far apart, or just one word apart? As a person of faith, I can expound on that living in terms of God, Christ, the Spirit - and a person without faith, or more positively, a person who sees things without faith being a consideration, and likewise expound on that living. Who is right and who is wrong? That is NOT the question. The question is what works, what makes sense of life and answers the questions, for each person in the reality of their own lives. Sara, celebrate your atheism for it is a very legitimate choice faced with all that we can see and observe in this world. Not my choice, but my choice is for me only, not be imposed on you. You made the choice that is right for you and that is how it should be. Vince sl.m@shaw.ca wrote: > > I'm beginning to get worried here: am I really the only atheist on the > list?? Colin, I know you're no fan of organized religion, but you > believe in a higher power. I don't, or at least I'm agnostic > regarding that. I wouldn't want to say that everything we see is all > that exists. But I also find a belief in god (in any traditional > sense) as basically superstition. > > I believe in the maxim of Feuerbach: "For god to be everything, man > must be nothing". > > We should trust ourselves and our own judgement and sort out life on > this earth by ourselves, with no help from gods, real or imagined. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 20:19:50 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: Deuteronomy njc colin wrote: >> > don't forget Xtians do this too. In fact i would have all of them > do.(meaning Judaism and Isalm and Xtian) Damn right Colin and it is the shame of all of us. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 19:27:21 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Prepare, NJC PC Sorry, typo: when I wrote: >6. The United Nations should pick an arbitrary date - January 1st >2004, say - and should rule that anyone who is a citizen of Israel >or the Occupied Territories on that date is a citizen of Israel. What I meant was: anyone who is a citizen of Israel on that date becomes a citizen of Israel with its new borders, and anyone living in the Occupied Territories on that date (including Israeli settlers if they choose to be there) becomes a citizen of that new state - Palestine, if called that. Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 20:55:26 -0500 From: vince Subject: Best 10 CD's of 2002 NJC The Eminem Show by Eminem 8 Mile soundtrack More from 8 Mile Word of Mouf by Ludacris The Blueprint by Jay-Z Man vs Machine by Xzibit Reanimation by Linkin Park No More Drama by Mary J. Blige Y Tu Mama Tambien soundtrack 3D by TLC ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 17:59:02 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: Rufus Wainwright For any fan of Rufus Wainwright, you must hear his song "When in Disgrace" based on a Shakespearian sonnet. It's available on an album called "When Love Speaks" - a tribute to Shakespeare. - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 21:36:12 -0500 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: WEIRD NJC it may be difficult to find a hallmark get well card specifically for that :-) i want to know john's secret for this! hope you (john?) heal soon. heather - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of colin Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 9:58 AM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: WEIRD NJC what is this? A funny/peculiar coincidence? John 'phoned late last night from London. He had fallen over in the snow and ice and landed on his coccyx and left buttock.This morning he has gone to work and feels fine. On the other hand, the base of my spine is very painful, down the left hand side, i am finding it difficult to move and have had to take some codrydamol to try and dull the pain. I have not fallen nor have i done anything unusual. i was in bed when he 'phoned and awoke this morning with this pain. I have heard of twins having these experiences and have even heard of men suffering labour pains when their wives/girlfriends have babies. I am going to bed again and perhaps when I awake I'll find I was dreaming. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:48:40 +1300 (NZDT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Joseph=20Francis?= Subject: re: prepare - njc rc > The assertion that God is Love on one hand and the assertion on the hand > that people who dipelase God will go to hell, is yet another example of > bamboozling. OK, well this is hard to try to explain, but I suppose I will try. It all comes from the assumption (which I believe to be true), that there is good and there is evil. Now, if you believe (as you have said) that there is some kind of higher good or power (which I call God), then you have to believe that there is also some kind of a greater evil (which I call Satan, or the devil). One cannot exist without the other. The devil would love you to believe that he doesn't exist, but where there is a black, there is a white - where there is day there is night. Even Satanists believe in God! They steal the blessed bread and wine from our Catholic churches and mistreat it - mixing the wine with urine, offering up the bread on the "alter" of a naked woman for their black masses. If you believe we have a spirit, then it must come from somewhere and go somewhere when we die. God is good. There is no evil in him, no blackness, nor can there ever be. The opposite is true of Satan. God does not want anyone to go to hell, but anything that is not pure and "good" cannot exist with Him. After Adam and Eve seperated us from God by their sin, there was no way that we could really be good enough to come to God. In the old Jewish law, they used to place all their sins on a perfect lamb with no spots - it had to be pure white, then they would slaughter the lamb as a sacrifice in order to be purified. As you can see, this is probably not very practical today....lol So God sent his only son Jesus to earth. He was perfect and without sin (He was God). He was to be the last sacrifice for us - the Lamb of God. God placed ALL the sins ever commited and that ever will be committed onto Jesus, your sins and my sins - like Jesus had done them - and Jesus took our place - and for a short time at Calvary, God punished him, his only son for those sins. And boy did he take a lot of punishment at the cross. All we have to do is believe in Him. When God looks at us, he see through the blood of his son - and sees us as blameless. BUT...Even though we are forgiven through CHrist's blood, if a person is genuinely evil and rejects God - God is pure love and cannot recieve evil into himself (heaven). There is only Hell left (although, I, as a Catholic, believe in a purgatory where souls go who are not intrinsically evil, but they are not pure enough for Heaven. Here they must stay until they are purified through time and people praying for them etc. On the walls of the catacombes of the early Christians are inscribed things like "pray for so-and-so who died at such-a-date". If they are in Heaven, they do not need our prayers anyway, and if they are in Hell, prayers will do no good - so the early church did believe in this purgatory, or place of waiting). Sure, there are people who do not even know about God or Christianity, but live good lives, and I don't believe people like that would go to Hell. Jesus did say, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one can come to the Father, except through me." (by the way - I read somewhere that in the Jewish tradition, the temple or "holy of holies" where the tabernacle was, was seperated by 3 curtains. These 3 curtains were called "the Way", "the Truth", "the Life" - so the Jews knew *exactly* what Jesus meant when he said that). I know I am not perfect - as do all Christians. The church is not "a hotel for saints, but a hospital for sinners" (as I think Chesterton said). Sorry, for the long post, but you asked :) Joseph http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies - - What's on at your local cinema? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:39:44 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: performing songwriter t'log review Joni Mitchell Travelogue [Nonesuch] Joni goes philharmonic. This September of My Years re-imagining of 22 songs from her back catalog finds the grand dame floating her nicotine angel voice on a sea of strings, horns and choir harmony (more than 80 pieces in all). The lush, windswept style mostly flatters the material ("Amelia" and "The Sire of Sorrow" are standouts), occasionally overwhelms it ("Hejira" is jarring, like beat poetry meets Victory at Sea), but ultimately does not better the originals. Still, any new release from Joni Mitchell is cause for celebration. The whole affair was filmed by director Allison Anders for an upcoming PBS American Masters special. -BD For Fans Of: Marianne Faithfull - 20th Century Blues Frank Sinatra - Sings for Only the Lonely Nat King Cole - Wild Is Love Rating: B- http://www.performingsongwriter.com/ ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:58:02 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Bible quotes (njc) I think if she were on the list reading it all she'd probably be jumping in and monopolizing the threads ;-) Probably would throw out some Nietzsche stuff, too. LOL Kakki > Lori asks: > > << (What would Joni do?) >> > > She'd probably smite everyone. > > --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 19:02:21 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Pigs NJC Wally, you may be amused to know that it was played in all it's hilarious glory at a SoCal JMDLer Holiday party here in 2001. Guess it has truly made the rounds. ;-) Kakki > i am also happy to see that there's someone else in the world that knows "Everyone's > fucking but me" (apart form john van tiel, that is). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 03:28:43 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: prepare - njc rc Joseph Francis wrote: >>The assertion that God is Love on one hand and the >> >> >assertion on the hand > > >>that people who dipelase God will go to hell, is yet >> >> >another example of > > >>bamboozling. >> >> > >OK, well this is hard to try to explain, but I suppose >I will try. > >It all comes from the assumption (which I believe to >be true), that there is good and there is evil. Now, >if you believe (as you have said) that there is some >kind of higher good or power (which I call God), then >you have to believe that there is also some kind of a >greater evil (which I call Satan, or the devil). > nonsense. one doesn't have to believe that at all. >One cannot exist without the other. > who says? if God is omnipotent, it follws nothing is more peowerful than him. The idea of satn is childish, imo. Evil is a construct of humans, the result of our fear. It has no real power, how can it when God is ALL? > The devil would >love you to believe that he doesn't exist, > and this is an attept to bamboozle. it is used to frighten people into believing the unbelievable. > but where >there is a black, there is a white - where there is >day there is night. Even Satanists believe in God! > Oh and Satanists are reliable people? Seems they are equally as gullible. > >If you believe we have a spirit, then it must come >from somewhere and go somewhere when we die. God is >good. There is no evil in him, no blackness, nor can >there ever be. The opposite is true of Satan. God does >not want anyone to go to hell, but anything that is >not pure and "good" cannot exist with Him. >After Adam and Eve seperated us from God by their sin, >there was no way that we could really be good enough >to come to God. > this is getting very silly. > >In the old Jewish law, they used to place all their >sins on a perfect lamb with no spots - it had to be >pure white, then they would slaughter the lamb as a >sacrifice in order to be purified. As you can see, >this is probably not very practical today....lol > nothing to lol about. i am rather glad this practice isn't common, at elast here. and not because ot isn't practical. >So God sent his only son Jesus to earth. He was >perfect and without sin (He was God). He was to be the >last sacrifice for us - the Lamb of God. >God placed ALL the sins ever commited and that ever >will be committed onto Jesus, your sins and my sins - >like Jesus had done them - and Jesus took our place - >and for a short time at Calvary, God punished him, his >only son for those sins. And boy did he take a lot of >punishment at the cross. > This is what I find appalling. How anyone can believe in a loving God and believe this totally opposing idea too. And MANY MANY MANY people have died far worse deaths than Jesus is said to have done. I wonder fi people ever really think about this. A loving Father brings such agony on his son in order to satisfy his need to punish? It can only be fear that causes people to leave their intellect behind in order to believe this. I recall only too well the fear instilled in me by nuns and priests who taught me as a child. How fear and accusations of badness that were thrust upon any child that dared question the validity of their words. To do this to children is nothing short of abuse. There was no reason and no love and only the strong need to appear to have power and control. > > > >Sure, there are people who do not even know about God >or Christianity, but live good lives, and I don't >believe people like that would go to Hell. > so even you can see the flaw in your own argument so you go against it because it sounds better. In other words, not even your conscience can accpet that those who do not accpet Jesus as saviour will perish. if the only way to be saved is thru Jesus, then these people will go to hell, end of story. >Jesus did say, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. >No one can come to the Father, except through me." > see? you reiterate your point which is totally opposite to your not believing that good non believers will go to hell. This sentence makes it quite clear they will. >( > I find this belief loathsome. Please understand, i do not find you personally loathsome. I find it loathsome because it so so damaging and makes God into soemthing much less that God is. It robs him of His(or her) power and love. That is why i find it loathsome. I do think we are ALL spirit, all part of god, all perfect in essence. I think it is our failure to undertsand this, our belief in our 'badness' that causes the evil we experience. Our path to full expression of our holiness is always open. the only thing that stops us taking that journey is our closed minds. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 03:37:43 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Prepare, NJC PC > I'm beginning to get worried here: am I really the only atheist on the > list?? Colin, I know you're no fan of organized religion, but you > believe in a higher power. yes but I wouldn't define it. > I don't, or at least I'm agnostic regarding that. I wouldn't want > to say that everything we see is all that exists. But I also find a > belief in god (in any traditional sense) as basically superstition. so do i! > > > I believe in the maxim of Feuerbach: "For god to be everything, man > must be nothing". I don't agree with that. I think we are God. You and me and everyone else. If God is the ocean, we are raindrops. > > > We should trust ourselves and our own judgement and sort out life on > this earth by ourselves, with no help from gods, real or imagined. I agree. Thos we get help regardless. It just depends on whetehr we hear it or not or are aware when we do. meaning we get ideas and we either act upon them or we don't. 'inspriation', a hunch, a gut feeling ect. Things come into our path and we either notice them and take heed or we ignore them or sidestep them or whatever. > > > Regarding the mid-east, I believe the U.N (or, if they won't, Britain > and America) should impose a solution, and back it up with force. And > forget who was there first. It's too late to argue that now. > your does does away with the Palestinians. that is smart. I can think of a reason or two why this idea would not work. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 22:40:26 -0500 From: "chuty001" Subject: Re: prepare - njc rc I believe in the theory of balance here good and bad etc... but I'm thinking Purgatory would need an opposite of over stimulation or something. Also wasn't Lucifer an angel gone bad? Was there an opposite before him? Or was it just the presence of evil? Chuck - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Francis" To: Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 9:48 PM Subject: re: prepare - njc rc > > The assertion that God is Love on one hand and the > assertion on the hand > > that people who dipelase God will go to hell, is yet > another example of > > bamboozling. > > OK, well this is hard to try to explain, but I suppose > I will try. > > It all comes from the assumption (which I believe to > be true), that there is good and there is evil. Now, > if you believe (as you have said) that there is some > kind of higher good or power (which I call God), then > you have to believe that there is also some kind of a > greater evil (which I call Satan, or the devil). > One cannot exist without the other. The devil would > love you to believe that he doesn't exist, but where > there is a black, there is a white - where there is > day there is night. Even Satanists believe in God! > They steal the blessed bread and wine from our > Catholic churches and mistreat it - mixing the wine > with urine, offering up the bread on the "alter" of a > naked woman for their black masses. > > If you believe we have a spirit, then it must come > from somewhere and go somewhere when we die. God is > good. There is no evil in him, no blackness, nor can > there ever be. The opposite is true of Satan. God does > not want anyone to go to hell, but anything that is > not pure and "good" cannot exist with Him. > After Adam and Eve seperated us from God by their sin, > there was no way that we could really be good enough > to come to God. > > In the old Jewish law, they used to place all their > sins on a perfect lamb with no spots - it had to be > pure white, then they would slaughter the lamb as a > sacrifice in order to be purified. As you can see, > this is probably not very practical today....lol > So God sent his only son Jesus to earth. He was > perfect and without sin (He was God). He was to be the > last sacrifice for us - the Lamb of God. > God placed ALL the sins ever commited and that ever > will be committed onto Jesus, your sins and my sins - > like Jesus had done them - and Jesus took our place - > and for a short time at Calvary, God punished him, his > only son for those sins. And boy did he take a lot of > punishment at the cross. > > All we have to do is believe in Him. When God looks at > us, he see through the blood of his son - and sees us > as blameless. BUT...Even though we are forgiven > through CHrist's blood, if a person is genuinely evil > and rejects God - God is pure love and cannot recieve > evil into himself (heaven). There is only Hell left > (although, I, as a Catholic, believe in a purgatory > where souls go who are not intrinsically evil, but > they are not pure enough for Heaven. Here they must > stay until they are purified through time and people > praying for them etc. On the walls of the catacombes > of the early Christians are inscribed things like > "pray for so-and-so who died at such-a-date". If they > are in Heaven, they do not need our prayers anyway, > and if they are in Hell, prayers will do no good - so > the early church did believe in this purgatory, or > place of waiting). > > Sure, there are people who do not even know about God > or Christianity, but live good lives, and I don't > believe people like that would go to Hell. > Jesus did say, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. > No one can come to the Father, except through me." (by > the way - I read somewhere that in the Jewish > tradition, the temple or "holy of holies" where the > tabernacle was, was seperated by 3 curtains. These 3 > curtains were called "the Way", "the Truth", "the > Life" - so the Jews knew *exactly* what Jesus meant > when he said that). > > I know I am not perfect - as do all Christians. The > church is not "a hotel for saints, but a hospital for > sinners" (as I think Chesterton said). > > Sorry, for the long post, but you asked :) > Joseph > > > > > http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies > - What's on at your local cinema? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 03:43:09 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: WEIRD NJC Heather wrote: >it may be difficult to find a hallmark get well card specifically for that >:-) > >i want to know john's secret for this! > >hope you (john?) heal soon. > >heather > > > actually it has got muc much worse. Hence I ams till up. I went to bed as noraml and awoke shaking, teeth chattering and in agony. I couldn't move my legs at first. With great difficulty I got into this room and called the er dr. well of course they won;t come out but offered to send an ambulance whcih i declined. what do i do with 6 dogs? so my gp will come here tomorrow. right now I am wondering how i will get up from this pc and get to bed. The pain is juts about okay as I sit but any movemtn is excruciating. I am glad i spoke with the er dr tho as thru a series of questions, they ahev determined I don't have some awful disease, but an injury. tho how I got the injury, i don'tknow. i don't drink or drug so didn't injure myself in a blackout! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 22:49:30 -0500 From: "chuty001" Subject: Re: prepare - njc Hey I didn't see that rc on the subject till it was too late that's no fare do over.:-) Chuck ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 19:51:32 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Atheists - God Bless Them! NJC Stepping in here just for a moment, as I have chosen to stay out of the fray of religions ad wars this time around. I am proud as a humanist & atheist to be just that. I was raised in Catholicism. And I can say that I have questioned my religion and the exisitence of "god" since I was 6 years old. In fact I remember that fearful moment exactly, as I sat in my religion class with my little Jesus workbook in front of me and suspected then what I have come full circle to believe in as an adult. Does this make me a sinner or wrong. I do not have that fear. That the teachings of the book are a guide for humanity to follow, -yes. But to be fearful of a god, and the very exisistence of one has hung over me for almost 40 years now, as a farce. I really thought that at the end of that little workbook they (nuns) were going to tell us that there was no god and that we must live a good life and be an asset to humanity by following the general teachings laid out by those prophets who once walked the earth. I believe now as you say Vince this was the right answer for me. When I see many of you, on both sides and I do not doubt, nor question your faith, spewing words that divide, and arguing semantics, I feel more and more confident in my choice. Not so much a choice even. - --- vince As Bonhoeffer wrote > (pastor, theologian, plotter in the assassination attempt, and killed by > the Nazis), we live in a world come up age, a world that in which we > have found religion to be empty and it impossible to believe in the old > ways anymore, which were probably all cultural conditioning anyway. The above is also something I can not believe so many do NOT understand. Cutures dictated much of how a religion was defined & written. Not to mention being a feminist and the sexismI find in almost evry religion. The times, the neccessities of surviving even. Most religious & ethnic groups rituals and traditions come right from this very thought. Everyone was looking for a reason to believe and found ways within their own culture to make it so. > > Atheism is a legitimate response to the question of God. While I do not require validation, I thank you Vince for yor open minded and fairness. I did not make this choice out of hate or spite, but out of a personal striving towards truth. Faith is not be a matter of > agreeing to a series of statements, agreeing to a set of intellectual > propositions, some or many or all of which may be questionable to a > thinking person. Faith is about living as if every other person is > equal and worthy and doing what one can for the sake of others. And I add, do no confuse an atheist with a selfish, hateful or uncaring person. Although I am sure some are. I like to call myself a humanist. And I too fail miserably everyday at this,and yet vow to get up tomorrow and make the effort again. > sl.m@shaw.ca wrote: > > > > I'm beginning to get worried here: am I really the only atheist on the > > list?? Colin, I know you're no fan of organized religion, but you > > believe in a higher power. Clearly Sara, you now know you are not alone here. And yet we both will take stands for and against the wars now being fought in the world in these times. Whenever i have tried here to explain my opinion on the war between the Jews and Arabs, I may not have been called so but the insinuation has been that I am Anti-Semmetic. So far from it, I am way way a supporteer of Israel. Remember the words "Silence = death." However, just as I am anti-war or violence here in America, this does not make me an expatriate or anti-American. I believe this makes me a practicing Amercian. This is using my humanity and my beliefs to further my personal crusade, for all to search for and hopefully find the common ground. And to act like HUMAN BEINGS, and not like two hockey teams ripping each other's throats out to win the right to the Holy Grail! Note to Canadians - I LOVE Hockey! By the way, WHAT is so funny 'about peace, love and understanding - and I must get this in, to those who would use those words against or to make foly or lightness out of them, I would say look at the very definition you expressed against my cheer and see if that does not define understanding and the quest for it. Surprisingly, I found this to be cheap & cold. Peace, love and understnding are found through listening, expressing ones side and perspective, KNOWLEDGE and a real DESIRE to find common ground and resolve! I realize I have tied into a few post but i believe the were all spawned from one another and divided here, so excuse me for saving it all up. Peace, Susan (proud humanist/atheist) Prepared for those who will choose to take issue here, but still hoping otherwise, nontheless. Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 22:56:09 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: prepare ye - njc rc In a message dated 1/9/2003 9:49:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, mitchell_list@yahoo.co.nz writes: > Now, > if you believe (as you have said) that there is some > kind of higher good or power (which I call God), then > you have to believe that there is also some kind of a > greater evil (which I call Satan, or the devil). > No. False. You don't HAVE to believe that at all. I believe in God, but I don't believe in Hell or Satan. I think Satan is man's creation in order to manipulate people & behavior. I believe that we are saved through God's grace, not through good acts. In much the same way, we are not condemned to Hell by our sins, for if we were that's where we're all going so f*ck it let's party! :~) Of course I also believe that everyone's relationship with or without God is a personal issue, so again I'm not trying to make converts... And in a series of interesting coincidences, my son & I had this same conversation at dinner. He started by asking me if I believed in demonic possession, to which I answered no. Also, I saw "Jesus Christ Superstar" tonight with Sebastian Bach (Skid Row) in the lead, and Carl Anderson (the same guy on Broadway and in the film) as Judas. Very moving and a terrific show. I had never seen a stage production of this one before. Not a flaw in the entire cast. Bob NP: Badly Drawn Boy, "Using Our Feet" ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #16 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)