From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #15 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, January 9 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 015 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: "prepare" (njc) pc and rc (religious content) ["mike pritchard" ] re: pigs etc - njc [=?iso-8859-1?q?Joseph=20Francis?= ] Re: pigs etc - njc [colin ] I'll take Manhattan [Gordon Mackie ] Re: pigs (njc) [colin ] Re: prepare - njc - rc [colin ] Re: press and propaganda NJC [colin ] Re: press and propaganda NJC ["kakki" ] Re: press and propaganda NJC [colin ] Re: press and propaganda NJC ["kakki" ] Music discoveries of 2002- NJC ["Laurent Olszer" ] Little Green/Circle Game Medley [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] WEIRD NJC [colin ] Long good-bye, short hello ["Louis Lynch" ] Subject: neil finn NJC [Mary Casey ] (NJC)Re: Long good-bye, short hello [FMYFL@aol.com] NJC Re: Long good-bye, short hello [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Rufus Wainwright [Harry83house@aol.com] Subject: Re: TOP CD's of 2002 - VLJC [Mary Casey ] Re: Isolatonism pc njc [Jerry Notaro ] o pig (njc) (npc) (nrc) (nracon) (no joni content; no political c ontent;no religious content;not really any content of note) [] Re: NJC Re: Long good-bye, short hello [Deb Messling ] McGarrigles NJC WAS Re: Rufus Wainwright [Deb Messling ] prepare, more info please? NJC ["Laurent Olszer" ] Prepare, NJC ["Laurent Olszer" ] Bible quote, njc ["Laurent Olszer" ] Top cds of 2002 ["blonde in the bleachers" ] Re: Bible quote, njc [colin ] RE: Pigs NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] moreRe: Bible quote, njc [colin ] Deuteronomy NJC [colin ] Bible quotes and Pius XII, njc ["Lavieri, Vince [185776]" ] Re: Bible quotes (njc) ["Lori Fye" ] apology to Joni Onlys ["Lavieri, Vince [185776]" ] Re: Bible quotes (njc) [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Deuteronomy njc [colin ] Best 10 CD's of 2002 [BRIANASYMES@aol.com] Re: Deuteronomy njc ["Lavieri, Vince [185776]" ] Re. prepare, more info please NJC (LONG) ["mike pritchard" Subject: Re: "prepare" (njc) pc and rc (religious content) From: anne sandstrom >>Mainstream Christianity still has a stranglehold on politics in the U.S.<< From Sarah: >>But sure, I see that it plays a much bigger role in people's lives in America than in the UK or Canada. Mike notes that in the Spanish press today (El Pais) Bush's speechwriter, who coined the phrase 'axis of evil' (David Frum), reports that he felt strange in 'the extreme religiousness of the environment' (around the presidential team). Bush apparently opens all meetings with a prayer and his assistants dedicate some time to bible study every day, presumably the Old Testament. Only good taste prevents me from commenting on the apparent incongruity of this when dealing with the important points on the day's agenda, i.e. the imminent destruction of Iraq and/or North Korea and a possible high number of civilian and military lives lost. This is a high price to pay, as Bush mentioned recently but one which he said must be paid. Easy to say when for one who avoided going to the frontline himself. mike in barcelona, expecting snow at any moment... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 09:39:20 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: press and propaganda NJC Laurent wrote >>For some reason, Mike believes the propaganda from the opposite side, and each of us thinks the other one believes the wrong propaganda of course.<< I agree totally with this statement. Nice to agree with Laurent on something, LOL. >>By the way, I hear journalists in Spain do a terrific job since they have access to places that U.S journalists don't.<< Well, I cannot comment authoritatively on this although my impression is that Laurent's statement is also correct, although the paper I read most (El Pais) is what would he would call a 'lefty' paper, though not as lefty as the Guardian, say. Talking of the press, I do not know the political affiliations of Le Nouvel Observateur but today's El Pais carries an interview with Kenize Mourad who was for many years their (LNO) correspondent in the middle east. The headline is 'The state of Israel does terrible things and the world says nothing'. Is this typical of the French paper's stance? Finally for today I would like to say something that I forgot to mention the other day in the heat of the argument. I see nothing heroic or romantic in the suicide bombing of civilians and I condemn it totally, without reservation. It must be terrible to live in this way and I feel for Laurent and his fears for his children when he takes them to his synagogue. There is however, a difference between dying for a belief and killing for a belief, although they are similar in that lives are lost based on what someone believes. mike in barcelona ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 21:41:50 +1300 (NZDT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Joseph=20Francis?= Subject: re: pigs etc - njc This topic reminds me of an interview I read with Steve Vai, the guitarist (you may know him for playing "the devils' guitarist" in the 80's movie Crossroads, with Ralph Macchio.) Anyway, Vai's female cat was tearing up all the furniture and so he took it to the vet to find out what was wrong with it. Turns out it was on heat, so the vet recommended he take the cat home and, er, relieve it with a thermometer, which he did. But, get this... He *records* the, er, howling the cat makes during this process, slows it down and reverses it or something, and ends up putting it on a song on his album "Passion and Warfare"....ewwwww.... Wierd, huh? Joseph. http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies - - What's on at your local cinema? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 09:54:30 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: Pigs NJC >>And as for the Boys they are just as comical, have seen them dance and shake and grunt only till they fill a thermos cup or two for you so they definetly orgasm.HH >> I don't really want to get too deep into the pig thread but couldn't let this pass. Orgasm happens in the brain and ejaculation happens to the penis. These two things are not necessarily related and evidence of ejaculation is not evidence of orgasm. This is a common, errr misconception and Tantric sexual exercises make it clear that orgasm and especially multiple male orgasm can be separated from ejaculation. See 'The Multi-Orgasmic Man' by Mantak Chia and Douglas Abrams for more info on this. milk in barcelona NP Everyone's fucking but me - Durwood Douche (Thanks, Jerry) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 09:49:03 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: pigs etc - njc > Turns out it was on heat, so >the vet recommended he take the cat home and, er, >relieve it with a thermometer, which he did. > it works too. If you stick a cotton bud up there, the female thinks she has been mated and shuts up. Handy when you have several females calling. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 09:50:07 +0000 From: Gordon Mackie Subject: I'll take Manhattan Dear NYC Jmdlers I will be in NYC from this Saturday evening till Wednesday and then from the following Thursday till Saturday. If you wanna meet a member from the Scottish chapter,let me know...asap...I think I have left this a little bit late but not been around for a while. Oh...and Floridians....I will be near St Pete Beach (Tierra Verde) in between my two stays in NYC...so if you wanna meet, let me know Gordon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 09:47:31 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: pigs (njc) >Okay, since you asked, this is also from a pig site (Colin started this >thread, so don't blame me.) > you big wimp! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 10:00:09 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: prepare - njc - rc >Let's just say for a moment that I am an unbeliever, >and I die but find out that The Bible and everything >in it is true. I would have lost SO MUCH by not >following it on earth. > It sounds to me it is fear that instructs your faith. > Having the creator of the >universe there to help me, someone who loves me that I >can talk to, and who talks back to me (and he does >talk to us in many ways - you'd be surprised). > One does not have to believe the Bible literally nor be a Xtian to have this experience. > > You only have >to look around at creation. > yes creation speaks of a Hiher Power. It doesn't speak of a literal Bible. Bombozzling people is to confuse htem, to offer up arguments that sound plausible, and to be illogical but sound logical. an obvious piec of bambozzling, which describes it better than I can explain, is telling people that it is the Devil who is putting the seeds of doubt in their minds when they express disbelief or doubt in the legitimacy of the Bible. Or when one points out that what keeps one from believing in the lietral truth of the bible is that much of it offends intelliegnece and a sense of morality. There is much in it that goes against the godd conscience of many. The assertion that God is Love on one hand and the assertion on the hand that people who dipelase God will go to hell, is yet another example of bamboozling. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 10:03:19 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: press and propaganda NJC > I see nothing heroic or romantic in the >suicide bombing of civilians and I condemn it totally, without reservation. > here here > It >must be terrible to live in this way > it is > There is however, a >difference between dying for a belief and killing for a belief, > certainly. To be prapred to lose your life(not to kill) for your beliefs is often a magnifcent thing. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 02:08:13 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: press and propaganda NJC Um, but in the case of the suicide bombers in Israel, are they not deliberately going into large groups of people to die for their beliefs in order to maximize the terror and carnage?? They are also deliberately killing people. Isn't this beyond obvious? > > There is however, a > >difference between dying for a belief and killing for a belief, > > > certainly. To be prapred to lose your life(not to kill) for your beliefs > is often a magnifcent thing. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 10:19:51 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: press and propaganda NJC i don't understand your point. Both Mark and I have condemned the suicide bombings. did you think my last sentence supported the suicide bombers? kakki wrote: >Um, but in the case of the suicide bombers in Israel, are they not >deliberately going into large groups of people to die for their beliefs in >order to maximize the terror and carnage?? They are also deliberately >killing people. Isn't this beyond obvious? > > > >>> There is however, a >>>difference between dying for a belief and killing for a belief, >>> >>> >>> >>certainly. To be prapred to lose your life(not to kill) for your beliefs >>is often a magnifcent thing. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 02:23:04 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: press and propaganda NJC Sorry Colin, my misinterpretation. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:29:46 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Music discoveries of 2002- NJC Peter Gabriel UP is great. For me, the great discoveries of 2002 were Ryan Adams, Patricia Barber, Dominic Miller and Los Lobos. There's no need to elaborate on Ryan or Patricia Barber, they've both been posted about many times. Great talents. Dominic Miller: well known as Sting's guitarist, made 2 CDs playing classical/jazz/soothing music of the spheres, all on classical guitar. Los Lobos: Until now, I only knew them as a rock band made famous by La Bamba and How Will the Wolf Survive. What I discovered is a very eclectic band of fine talented musicians who can play anything. What blew my mind is KIKO because the music is impossible to describe. I'd say "experimental" for lack of a better term. Their album contain a mix of garage rock, Mexican music (love that accordeon, an instrument which I normally can't stand) to darker moods. The albums are as varied as Joni's IMHO. My other favorites CDs by them are This Time and The Neighborhood. I was in L.A. when the band first emerged. I remember people had this good conscience attitude which said in essence that Los Lobos made it even though they are all Chicanos from East L.A. Personally, I feel that if they weren't Chicanos they'd probably be as big as U2 (just as I always felt that Chuck Berry would have been bigger than Elvis had he been white). Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 09:50:31 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Little Green/Circle Game Medley For those who may be interested in Joni Mitchell, I mentioned a couple of days ago about a performance at the 1968 Philly Folk Festival in which she played a medley of Little Green & Circle Game, which I find very moving because of the themes (and realities behind them) of the 2 songs. I converted the track to a .wma file last night (plays on Windows Media Player) to share electronically with whoever might want to hear it. So if you are interested, let me know. Note: this medley runs over 8 and a half minutes, so if you're on a dial-up it's about a 20-minute download. I don't know if Macs can handle a .wma file. Speaking of Mack, I was glad to hear from you again yesterday Mack! Bob NP: Dire Straits, "Portobello Belle - Live" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 14:58:19 +0000 From: colin Subject: WEIRD NJC what is this? A funny/peculiar coincidence? John 'phoned late last night from London. He had fallen over in the snow and ice and landed on his coccyx and left buttock.This morning he has gone to work and feels fine. On the other hand, the base of my spine is very painful, down the left hand side, i am finding it difficult to move and have had to take some codrydamol to try and dull the pain. I have not fallen nor have i done anything unusual. i was in bed when he 'phoned and awoke this morning with this pain. I have heard of twins having these experiences and have even heard of men suffering labour pains when their wives/girlfriends have babies. I am going to bed again and perhaps when I awake I'll find I was dreaming. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 10:28:06 -0500 From: "Louis Lynch" Subject: Long good-bye, short hello Hello everyone, It's Harper Lou, longlost Joniphile, correspondent and occasional = nemesis! After a longish break, I decided to catch up on how the Joni world is = doing. Glad to see many of you are still posting. =20 The digest has so much interesting stuff, from pig orgasms to Jesus' = Godhood, that I am overwhelmed. =20 I bought Travelogue and enjoy it. The harps on "Refuge of the Road" are = absolutely killer. How did I miss a gig like that? I like the album overall. A lot, in fact. Much better than Taming the = Tiger. And, since I saw her concert at Madison Square Gardens, it's = meaningful, too. Joni's vocals are slipping -- although her phrasing is as rich as ever = and her voice is lovely still, it's sad to hear the difference over 30 = years. Wondering why Baez and Collins still sound so bell-like -- is it = the smokes? Any confirmed opinions? This professional singer may have = to quit smoking yet again because of the negative inspiration. I've been busy, now self-employed as a full-time musician. The computer = office was killing me. I find myself a lot calmer now, don't know how = or why -- perhaps poverty helps one chill. Unfortunately, as a full-time musician, I was forced to go commercial. = I recorded a new musical medical product -- a harp album for massage = therapy sessions. =20 I also cut my hair -- no more two-foot ponytail. Just an ordinary = looking middle-aged man now. =20 I'll look forward to reading your posts. Hope you all are well. Regards, Harper Lou [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type text/x-vcard which had a name of Louis Lynch.vcf] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 07:15:03 -0800 From: Mary Casey Subject: Subject: neil finn NJC yael wrote: i'm SO excited about neil finn's tour - i have a ticket to see him in detroit feb 4th. hooray. I am also SO excited about Neil coming around again that I'm goint to the warfield show in SF and then traveling up to portland for his show 2 nights later. I love his music. Now if only Joni would tour Mary ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 10:24:43 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: (NJC)Re: Long good-bye, short hello In a message dated 1/9/2003 10:14:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, harp@louislynch.com writes: > It's Harper Lou, longlost Joniphile, correspondent and occasional = > nemesis! > Welcome back Lou !!! It's been almost a year since you've been gone hasn't it? Glad to hear you're still plucking along in the music business. I remembered you played a few Joni songs on the harp. Hopefully you'll cut a CD of Joni covers. Looking forward to reading your posts again. (Maybe Don Rowe will return again too) Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 10:27:26 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: Long good-bye, short hello > Unfortunately, as a full-time musician, I was forced to go commercial. I recorded a new musical medical product -- a harp album for massage therapy sessions. Hiya Harper Lou! I thought about you the first time I heard those ROTR harps. Glad to hear you're well and working as a professional musician. Don't be too upset about doing that commercial stuff; after all, you still get to make a living doing what you have a true passion for. Great to hear from you. Bob NP: Dire Straits, "Where Do You Think You're Going" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 10:29:05 EST From: Harry83house@aol.com Subject: Rufus Wainwright Richard! I saw the PBS Broadcast of "A DEATH IN AN AMERICAN FAMILY" about Lance Loud the other night, too. Rufus' version of OVER THE RAINBOW with his mother Kate accompanying him at the funeral was so beautiful and moving. The whole show packed quite a wallop, emotionally speaking. Anyway, I have a question...has Joni ever done any recording or touring with Rufus' mother and aunt, Kate and Anna McGarrigle? Plus, can anyone recommend any of The McGarrigle sisters' albums. I see their names pop up in some Top 100 Album lists and wonder about them, but can't find them in the record shops. Were they ever "big" in the states? Just curious. Best , Harry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 07:44:55 -0800 From: Mary Casey Subject: Subject: Re: TOP CD's of 2002 - VLJC My list, in no particular order: Elvis- When I was Cruel (nominated for a grammy, yeah!) Neil Finn- One All (I actually like One Nil the UK version better, but that was released last year) Peter Gabriel- Up (I think this is a brilliant piece of work and don't understand why it is getting trashed by the critics... anyone?) Tori Amos- Scarlet's Walk Beth Orton- Daybreaker David Gray- a new day at midnight Joni- Travelogue (IMHO: I will burn the songs I like from this on to one cd for my own listening pleasure (mostly to avoid Sire of Sorrow) the packaging alone puts this effort on my top CD for 2002 list. (I know that we are talking about music here, so packaging may not be relevant, but, I can't help it, I'm a graphic designer) Caron Vikre- A Likely Story (an amazing local artist (Sacramento, CA) who writes intelligent, emotional songs that make me smile even though they are often very dark and melancholy. An example: "As I become a bother I move to meet the Father And tarnish the immaculate text I'm selling off the crystal to buy a loaded pistol but can't remember what to do next" Mary ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 11:20:33 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Isolatonism pc njc kakki wrote: > >That said, there is a difference between being Anti-war and Isolationism. > > What do you think it is? I think both stances are concerned with wanting > peace and self-preservation and not aggravating situations. > > Kakki Hi Kakki, The vast majority of Isolationists would support a war if our borders or troops were attacked, as was the case in W.W.II. Anti-war activists are against any war or violence on principle. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:14:48 +0200 From: Ron Greer Subject: o pig (njc) (npc) (nrc) (nracon) (no joni content; no political c ontent;no religious content;not really any content of note) hi RSM wrote: > A pig's orgasm lasts 30 minutes. > > (In my next life, I want to be a pig.)............ > > Banging your head against a wall uses 150 calories an hour. > > (Do not try this at home...... maybe at work.) well the 30 minute orgasm is clearly a myth. if banging your head uses 150 calries an hour, how many calories would a thirty minute orgasm use??? pigs are still fat. i rest my case :-) ron np meret becker & ars vitalis - jockey full of bourbon (nice take on a tom waits cover - now if only shed do joni!!!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 11:15:26 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: NJC Re: Long good-bye, short hello Hey, welcome back, Lou! I've been thinking about you as we played your "Quiet Christmas" CD this season. It's a really beautiful collection. At 10:27 AM 1/9/03 -0500, you wrote: - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.434 / Virus Database: 243 - Release Date: 12/25/02 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 11:20:28 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: McGarrigles NJC WAS Re: Rufus Wainwright Depends on how you define "big," but the McGarrigles got some recognition in the 70s when Linda Ronstadt and Maria Muldaur recorded some of their songs. I own their debut, "Kate and Anna McGarrigle." It's quite beautiful and quite sad. Includes "Heart Like a Wheel" which Ronstadt made famous. I also like their 2nd album, "Dancer with Bruised Knees" - a bit quirkier than the first one. At 10:29 AM 1/9/03 -0500, you wrote: > Plus, can anyone recommend any of The >McGarrigle sisters' albums. I see their names pop up in some Top 100 Album >lists and wonder about them, but can't find them in the record shops. Were >they ever "big" in the states? Just curious. Best , Harry - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.434 / Virus Database: 243 - Release Date: 12/25/02 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:41:21 +0200 From: Ron Greer Subject: top cds of 2002 VLJC hi my top cds ive bought - not necessarily cds released in 2002 not necessarily in any order patti larkin - perishable fruit rory block - confessions of a blues singer beth orton - superpinkymandy gillian welch - revival billy bragg - back to basics maria muldaur - southland of the heart leo kottke - ice water four blind boys of alabama - spirit of the century los lobos - kiko ernie hawkins - bluesified ron np - meret becker & ars vitalis - god bless the child ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:44:22 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: prepare, more info please? NJC Hello Mike, Never heard about Israel in Latin America. Could you please elaborate. When you write about the hijacking of ships, are you refering to the boat filled with weapons that was seized a few months ago and which Arafat said he knew nothing about even though everybody on the boat was Palestinian? Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 19:07:43 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Prepare, NJC Sorry it's a little long but includes crucial information (2nd topic) to the understanding of the Palestinian motives and the Israelis' actions. Joseph wrote: > > The fact is that the Vatican saved between 740,000 and > 860,000 Jews from extermination. The Pope used the > assetts of the Vatican to ransom Jews from the Nazis > and ran an extensive network of hideouts. After the > war, the World Jewish Congress made a large cash gift > to the Vatican in thanks. Moshe Sharrett, former > Foreign Affairs Minister and Prime Minister of Israel > went to see Pius XII "to thank the Catholic CHurch for > what it did to save the Jews in all parts of the > world". Rabbi Herzog, of Jerusalem, sent a special > blessing to the Pope "for his lifesaving efforts of > behalf of the Jews during the Nazi occupation of > Italy". > > When Pius XII died, Golda Meir wrote: "During the Nazi > terror, when our people were subjected to a terrible > matyrdom, the Pope's voice was raised to condemn the > persecutors and to offer mercy to their victims. We > mourn over the death of a great server of peace." > Hi Joseph, Could you please list your sources for this info. I am not saying it's not true, I just thought the whole matter was very murky and unclear. In fact I recently read in the newspaper that the Vatican is finally going to release Pius XII's private archives. The article states that until now, historians who were mandated to determine the Pope's true role during WW2 said they couldn't reach any definitive conclusion because the Vatican only gave them access to limited archives and not the whole thing. > FOr some reason, the media is all against Israel. > They'll take any shot at them they can get. We hear > all about the wrongs Israel has done, but hardly > anything bad that Palestine does. I have noticed it on > the evening news. You see atrocities committed by > Palestine only in short snippets in the newspaper, and > they aren't mentioned at all on TV. The media likes to > spin it> > All I know is, it takes TWO to tango. But, to me, I > can't see how Israel defending themselves is wrong - > they are the defender. Palestine is the attacker - and > a vicious one at that. Maybe just my naive view again. > Well I'm glad someone sees the reality through the bull. This is really the crux of the matter. I wish to throw a few facts to back this up, taken from the PLO Charter, written in 64 and revised in 68. * Article 19 states that the divide of Palestine and the creation of Israel as voted by the UN in 47 are null and void, regardless of how long how a time has elapsed... * Article 20 clarifies that the Balfour declaration, the mandate over Palestine and everything that follows to prove an historical link between jews and Palestine are null and void. Not only that but what the PLO REALLY wants is the entire Palestine as defined by the British mandate, this includes Transjordan which became the kingdom of Jordan. (Remember "black september" in 1970 when King Hussein of Jordan, sick and tired of the PLO ransacking the population, killed tens of thousands of Palestinians and expelled the rest, I should add after making a final conciliatory attempt when Hussein offered Arafat the position of prime minister which he turned down). So that there should be no doubt on this matter, * Article 2 states: "Palestine within the borders of the British mandate constitutes an indivisible entity" * A commentary to Article 6 adds: "the aggression against the Palestinian people began in 1917 (the year of the Balfour declaration) and every trace must be erased up to that date, not just to the war of june 67" So it's pretty clear that the PLO wants all sovereignty over the entire territory, with all the jews thrown out (or worse). Some may think these demands have assuaged over time, I wish it were true. But the world refuses to hear the true demands, just like it didn't believe Mein Kampf which had all spelled out. I'm quoting from a 1981 book, so the evidence below is from around this time. Nothing has changed since. * On 2/11/80, Arafat was interviewed by the newspaper El Mundo in Caracas, Venezuela. He declared: "Peace for us means the destruction of Israel. We are preparing ourselves for a total war which will last for generations. We shall not rest until we return home and have destroyed Israel...The destruction of Israel is the goal to our fight. The orientations of our fight have not varied since the creation of the Fatah in 65: 1) Revolutionary violence is the only means to free up our ancestors' home 2) The objective of this violence is to destroy zionism in all its forms: political, economical, military, and to throw it out of Palestine. 3) This will be a long fight. We know some arab leaders want to end the conflict via peaceful means. If this should happen, we would fight it...." (remember Sadate?) * the PLO representative in Saudi Arabia, Mr. Rafik Natche, declared in april 80 in the Al Ryad paper: "One should clearly understand that any Palestinian entity on any part of Palestinian land should only be the stepping ground to liberating the other parts of Palestine....of the entire Palestine" "When the PLO was created in 64, it was not to liberate Hebron, Nablus or Gaza, which were liberated; but thruthfully to liberate Haofa, Jaffa, Ramla and the Neguev" * Hani el Hassan, the PLO representative in Iran, was interviewed on radio-Teheran in mai 80: "The Iranian revolution and Khomeiny are great allies for us. Within 5 years we will create a Palestinian government and within 15 years we hope to destroy Israel. We hope that Iranian and Palestinian leaders will march through Jerusalem hand in hand. * Georges Habache declared in an interview to the Greek paper Apoyvmatini on 12/15/79: "Yes in the beginning we will accept a portion of Palestine. But we will never agree to be satistied with that. We will fight until we take it all, until the last inch." * Ibrahim Souss, PLO representative in Paris, on Europe 1 radio on 3/10/80: - -"Our rights are on the entire Palestinian land, we shall never give up our rights" - -journalist: "But where?" - -"On the entire Palestinian land" - -"In place of Israel?" - -"For us a Palestinian state means an independant state right now on any portion of the land, because from there we will take back the whole". * Yasser Arafat himself at the "Firm Front" meeting in Tripoli on 4/14/80, as broadcasted on Radio Monte Carlo: "Khadafi's speech in which he demanded that zionist invaders return to their original country, and the removal of Israel from the map are the PLO guidelines and we will work fully to this goal". Finally, so that one does not believe the above are personal declarations, the Fatah (the PLO main branch, of which Arafat is the leader) adopted in its congress in Damas from 5/28-31/1980 a Political Program, so a well thought of and binding document, published on 6/2/80 by El Liwa, a Lebanese paper. The 1st paragraph: "The Fatah is a revolutionary independant organization, whose goal is to liberate Palestine completely and to eliminate the zionist entity politically, economically, militarily, culturally and ideologically. The only way to achieve our goal is popular armed revolution. The armed revolution of the palestinian people is the decisive factor in the struggle leading to the liberation and the elimination of the zionist presence. This fight will end only after the zionist entity will have been eliminated and Palestine liberated". One can see that the PLO clearly states its goals in its Charter and in all its declarations, as crudely as Hitler had stated his in Mein Kampf . The same people who didn't believe Hitler then and brought about the Holocaust, are shutting their eyes now to the fact that the PLO wishes what it says. Thus, the Israeli position can be summarized in 2 words "never again". Everything else is moot. How do you negotiate with someone who wants you dead? One can relay the world media position about Israel, but who can say Israelis want to eliminate Palestinians? The reverse is sadly true. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 19:13:36 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Bible quote, njc Colin wrote: you could look in the Bible and read how the idea 'ethnic cleansing' got started, how God told his people to 'clean the land', how he told his people to kill men women and children and animals.....to rid the land of those that were different. Assuming one believes it of course, that it is indeed the history of the Jewish people(OT).>>>> What's your biblical reference for this? I hope you can back up your statements. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 13:36:28 -0500 From: "blonde in the bleachers" Subject: Top cds of 2002 My favorite new cds of the year..... 10. Dave Matthews Band-Busted Stuff 9. Tori Amos-Scarletts Walk 8. Norah Jones-Come Away With Me 7. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The new MSN 8 is here: Try it free* for 2 months ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 13:40:47 -0500 From: "blonde in the bleachers" Subject: Top cds of 2002 *lets try this again! 10. Dave Matthews Band-Busted Stuff 9. Tori Amos-Scarletts Walk 8. Norah Jones-Come Away With Me 7. Alanis Morrisette-Under Rug Swept 6. Ryan Adams-Demolition 5. Jack Johnson-Brushfire Fairytales 4. Aimee Mann-Lost in Space 3. John Mayer-Room for Squares 2. Joni Mitchell-Travelogue 1. Wilco-Yankee Hotel Foxtrot - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Help STOP SPAM: Try the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:43:23 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: multi-orgasmic males NJC >>And as for the Boys they are just as comical, have seen them dance and shake and grunt only till they fill a thermos cup orthis is true. and i think that there is much prejudice against mutli-orgasmic males. once i was having sex with a guy and i had two or three orgasms long before i ejaculated. he said,"that's so like a woman!", which i thought was such an irrelevant comment, especially when one's cumming. but then i realized that males are supposed to grunt and squirt and be done. the idea of having an orgasm and not ejaculating evokes so many misconceptions. even among apparently *evolved* gay guys there is still so much sexism. i am very comforted to see that someone wrote a book about it. incidentally, i am also happy to see that there's someone else in the world that knows "Everyone's fucking but me" (apart form john van tiel, that is). i'll go play it right now since it is still at least 10 hours until my next orgasm. wallyK, multi-O -----Mensaje original----- De: mike pritchard [mailto:ink08@hotmail.com] Enviado el: Jueves, 09 de Enero de 2003 05:55 a.m. Para: list CC: colin; wally kairuz Asunto: Re: Pigs NJC multiple male orgasm can be separated from ejaculation. See 'The Multi-Orgasmic Man' by Mantak Chia and Douglas Abrams for more info on this. milk in barcelona NP Everyone's fucking but me  Durwood Douche (Thanks, Jerry) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 18:54:23 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Bible quote, njc Laurent Olszer wrote: > Colin wrote: > > you could look in the Bible and read how the idea 'ethnic cleansing' > got started, how God told his people to 'clean the land', how he told > his people to kill men women and children and animals.....to rid the > land of those that were different. > Assuming one believes it of course, that it is indeed the history of the > Jewish people(OT).>>>> > > What's your biblical reference for this? I hope you can back up your > statements. > Try reading all of Numbers for starters. I note you still have not explained how you can justify your stance on the rightness of Israel based on a story, rather than fact. > Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:55:52 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Pigs NJC >>And as for the Boys they are just as comical, have seen them dance and shake and grunt only till they fill a thermos cup orthis is true. and i think that there is much prejudice against mutli-orgasmic males. once i was having sex with a guy and i had two or three orgasms long before i ejaculated. he said,"that's so like a woman!", which i thought was such an irrelevant comment, especially when one's cumming. but then i realized that males are supposed to grunt and squirt and be done. the idea of having an orgasm and not ejaculating evokes so many misconceptions. even among apparently *evolved* gay guys there is still so much sexism. i am very comforted to see that someone wrote a book about it. incidentally, i am also happy to see that there's someone else in the world that knows "Everyone's fucking but me" (apart form john van tiel, that is). i'll go play it right now since it is still at least 10 hours until my next orgasm. wallyK, multi-O -----Mensaje original----- De: mike pritchard [mailto:ink08@hotmail.com] Enviado el: Jueves, 09 de Enero de 2003 05:55 a.m. Para: list CC: colin; wally kairuz Asunto: Re: Pigs NJC orgasm and especially multiple male orgasm can be separated from ejaculation. See 'The Multi-Orgasmic Man' by Mantak Chia and Douglas Abrams for more info on this. milk in barcelona NP Everyone's fucking but me  Durwood Douche (Thanks, Jerry) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 19:00:01 +0000 From: colin Subject: moreRe: Bible quote, njc colin wrote: > >> > Try reading all of Numbers for starters. It is really rather nasty. The Israelites going iinto other people's lands and getting rid of the people's. It's okay tho isn't it because the Lord is telling them to do it. Of course it is just astory but it is amazing when you read it and other books in the bible how we see not much has changed. I accpet that perhaps this is a 'history' of sorts, maybe the Israelites did do this. What I doubt compeltely is that God told them too! The God written about in this book, Numbers, is nothing more a wicked tyrant, made in Man's image. > > > I note you still have not explained how you can justify your stance on > the rightness of Israel based on a story, rather than fact. > >> Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 19:11:17 +0000 From: colin Subject: Deuteronomy NJC try Deuteronomy 9. but why stop there, try reading all of it. And then move onto Joshua. There is much ethnic cleansing tho admittedly it is a good ethnic cleansing as God is commanding it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 14:32:03 -0500 From: "Lavieri, Vince [185776]" Subject: Bible quotes and Pius XII, njc http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140296271/qid=1042138359/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-1391187-1303963?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 The above link is to a book titled Hitler's Pope. I am posting this link as requested as I try very hard to not get involved in every thing. But Pius XII is to my mind as close to a war criminal as one can get and not be a Nazi. Pius XII had a long history as the Vatican's man in Germany, then Vatican Secretary of State, then Pope. The man was personally an anti-seminte and his role vis a vis the Nazis is extensively reviewed in this book. How did those cattle cars packed with Rome's Jews roll by the Vatican with no protest being lodged.... There was a long, long history of Pacelli and the Nazis long, long before Pacelli became pope and the concordat signed with the Nazis in 1933 was just one piece of the fruit of that. Of course I expect responses that good old Pope Pius was just a real nice guy and "quit picking on Pius" websites abound for those who do a net search. That does not obscure the truth, although those websites do a lot of skating around the truth. Most of them are "some catholics were persecuted by the Nazis and Pius was head of all catholics (and he was such a saintly man) so Pius was a victim of Nazis and was against Nazis." Very poor logic and historically wrong. This is not to discount at all the various individual Roman Catholics who helped rescue Jews and/or opposed Nazi-ism, at great personal cost, because of their faith. Those people should be honored. Pius should not be. (Side note: this is not to be read as an anti-catholic screed, the usual charge when one speaks of historical reality as opposed to pious sentimentality. You want Protestant neo-war criminals as an analogy, start with Bishop Ludwig Miller of the German Church, and a whole lot of, people that I am embarrassed about. Paul Althaus was a great Lutheran theologian who also was a neo-Nazi/Nazi and you all should have been there the days his book on ethics came up in my Ethics class iin seminary. To kill 6 million Jews, Hitler couldn't do it alone. There were many, many, many accomplices who made it all possible, and of all Christian faith communities; it should all make us all weep at the oven and at the cross for what we have done.) And as far as the Bible with "ethnic cleansing" portions, there are some cultic prescriptions in Judges and other (as Christians count them) historical books of the Prime Covenannt (aka Old [sic] Testamnent). They were very par for the times (10-14 centuries Before the Common Era, and Before the Common Era and Common Era are preferred terms for the Christo-centric and narrow BC and AD, BCE and CE long used by Biblical scholars). Even from obvious evidence, let alone the last 150 years of Biblical scholarship, these passages are cultic, ritual sayings and never happened, and the "historical" books are not read as history, they have a different purpose altogether and it would take forever to recount what the last 150 years of Biblical research tells us about those passages. As far as those passages apply to the the teachings of the Scriptures, they were never Torah, never teachings, and remind us always that people can too easily twist their faith into ways it should not go. If one wants to obsess about those ancient cultic passages, read the 8th century BCE prophets in particular Amos and Micah and see how God speaks in total opposition to such things. It is easy to pull any text out of the Bible with no referance to context (the process is called proof-texting) to make the Bible say anything anyone wants to make it say. Never take a particular minute piece and try and to make it the whole. Now I have said enough. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 14:36:29 -0500 From: "Lavieri, Vince [185776]" Subject: Re: Deuteronomy "try Deuteronomy 9. but why stop there, try reading all of it. And then move onto Joshua. There is much ethnic cleansing tho admittedly it is a good ethnic cleansing as God is commanding it." Colin, there is much more to the Scriptures than that and I would suggest some courses in modern Biblical scholarship before one attempts to make those passages normative for the Scriptures. Ancient remnants of cultic, ritual language that was overblown bs in its own day is NOT normative of the Scriptures. I have posted elsewhere on that subject. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 11:38:55 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Bible quotes (njc) All this talk about holiness now It must be the start of the latest style Is it all books and words Or do you really feel it? Do you really laugh? Do you really care? Do you really smile When you smile? Lori, wondering WWJD? (What would Joni do?) : ) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 14:41:49 -0500 From: "Lavieri, Vince [185776]" Subject: apology to Joni Onlys To all the joni-onlys: my deepest , deepest apologies for forgetting the NJC tag since this is the stuff you want to ignore and I may go joni-only and join you. Vince "try Deuteronomy 9. but why stop there, try reading all of it. And then move onto Joshua. There is much ethnic cleansing tho admittedly it is a good ethnic cleansing as God is commanding it." Colin, there is much more to the Scriptures than that and I would suggest some courses in modern Biblical scholarship before one attempts to make those passages normative for the Scriptures. Ancient remnants of cultic, ritual language that was overblown bs in its own day is NOT normative of the Scriptures. I have posted elsewhere on that subject. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:32:11 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Bible quotes (njc) Lori asks: << (What would Joni do?) >> She'd probably smite everyone. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 20:35:20 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Deuteronomy njc >Colin, there is much more to the Scriptures than that and I >would suggest some courses in modern Biblical scholarship >before one attempts to make those passages normative for >the Scriptures. > 3 whole books are minute passages? > > >Ancient remnants of cultic, ritual language that was >overblown bs in its own day is NOT normative of the >Scriptures. > > > As I am sure you know, i don't hold it as true anyway. However, some people do take it literally and use it to justify the ME situation, with refernece to the 'prmosied land' and the 'chosen people'. These books tell how the promised land was taken. The whole idea that this ME situation is based on an idea based on these stories is pretty sick to say the least. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 15:58:10 -0500 From: BRIANASYMES@aol.com Subject: Best 10 CD's of 2002 Well, I will have to admit my addiction here to JM. Travelogue Disc one and Two and the other 8 are the CD's from 2002 Joni Fest Tops are Kate B with that Harmonica Man behind her & Gregg C's songs, and sneeking in at 11 is the Special Amelia Cover CD SCJoniguy made for Amelia's Fourth Birthday, all the Finest Amelia's Covers put on one CD even Yael Harlap from jf2002 which Amelia makes me replay. NP Borderline TT JM Brian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 16:04:11 -0500 From: "Lavieri, Vince [185776]" Subject: Re: Deuteronomy njc I bored everyione to hell by saying: Colin, there is much more to the Scriptures than that and I would suggest some courses in modern Biblical scholarship before one attempts to make those passages normative for the Scriptures. Colin replies: 3 whole books are minute passages? That is very unfair to say there are 3 "whole" books of that type of stuff. And the Scriptures themselves address those issues in later writings. These passages serve as a humbling reminder that none should pick and chose a few passages out of someone else's religious texts and try and make that stand for the whole, as is happening a lot recently with Islam and the Q'ran. I also agree with you whole heartedly that passages that are historically relevant in the era Before the Common Era that are cited to "give" the land to anyone are not valid now. Those promises are not, were not granted in perpetuity and if God intended such, I am sure God would have produced legal descriptions of the land and the deeds. (Even then, exactly what land - there was no such thing as national boundaries in those days.) Twice theologically we understand that possession of the land was taken away, in the Babylonian Exile and in 70 CE with the fall of the 2nd Temple. The earth belongs to the Lord, not to any one or any group of people. And especially in the Deuteronomic covenant and the Levitical code and in the prophets we are enjoined repeatedly to welcome the alien and give them their choicest location in our community and supply to them, for we were once homeless and aliens, a wandering Aramaian was my ancestor... It is an irony that of we believe that God acts in history, then surely it was God's intent, out of a sense of humor or a reminder that none of us are so damned special, that locations holy to 3 faiths are located in the exact same place. Maybe God has deliberatly done such so that are reminded of the commands to live with, and share with the alien, the stranger, the wayfarer, the widow and orphan, for God says, look, I share this land with the humanity that I have made, now you learn to share what is mine. The religious zealots on all sides are the people exactly who never should be allowed to control anything. There is no question that Israel must be a safe and secure nation for its people. And there is no question that Palestine must be a safe and secure nation for its people. And there is no such thing as "a people" for we are all but images of God and we are all commanded to welcome the alien. But safety and security must prevail - for everyone. Now how we do that... who knows untgil people stop dwelling on what is "mine" and start dwelling on the concepts that everything is God's, not theirs, that the religion they espouse does not condone killing others but teaches that hospitaklity and welcome, safety and security, must be extended to all, to all, damn it, why does no one understand that, to all, to all. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 22:32:56 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re. prepare, more info please NJC (LONG) >>Hello Mike, When you write about the hijacking of ships, are you referring to the boat filled with weapons that was seized a few months ago and which Arafat said he knew nothing about even though everybody on the boat was Palestinian? Laurent<< No, I was thinking about the following incidents, in fact. All secondary references are to Chomsky, as you may have guessed. ...There is no doubt that Israel has been carrying out hijacking operations and kidnapping at sea for many years, with little notice and no concern in the U.S. over this crime, which arouses great passion and anger when the perpetrators are Arabs. It was not even deemed necessary to report the fact that the Israeli High Court in effect gave its stamp of approval to this procedure. In the case of an Arab who appealed against his imprisonment on grounds that he was captured outside of Israeli territorial waters, the High Court ruled that "the legality of sentencing and imprisonment is unaffected by the means whereby the suspect was brought to Israeli territory," and held (once again) that an Israeli court may sentence a person for actions outside of Israel that it regards as criminal... (Ha'aretz June 12th 1986) ...In 1976, according to Knesset member (General, ret.) Mattityahu Peled, the Israeli Navy began to capture boats belonging to Lebanese Muslims - turning them over to Israel's Lebanese Christian allies - who killed them - in an effort to abort steps towards conciliation that had been arranged between the PLO and Israel. Prime Minister Rabin conceded the facts but said that the boats were captured prior to these arrangements, while Defense Minister Shimon Peres refused to comment. After a prisoner exchange in November 1983, a front-page story in the Times mentioned in its eighteenth paragraph that 37 of the Arab prisoners, who had been held at the notorious Ansar prison camp, "had been seized recently by the Israeli Navy as they tried to make their way from Cyprus to Tripoli," north of Beirut, an observation that merited no comment there or elsewhere. (New York Times Nov 25th 1983, Jan 26 1984) ... In June, 1984, Israel hijacked a ferryboat operating between Cyprus and Lebanon five miles off the Lebanese coast with a burst of machinegun fire and forced it to Haifa, where nine people were removed and held, eight Lebanese and the ninth Syrian. Five were freed after interrogation and four held, including one woman and a schoolboy returning from England for a holiday in Beirut; two were released two weeks later, while the fate of the others remains unreported. (Chomsky, p.64) ... The London Observer suggested a "political motive": to compel passengers to use the ferry operating from the Maronite port of Jounieh instead of Muslim West Beirut or to signal to the Lebanese that they are "powerless" and must come to terms with Israel. Lebanon denounced this "act of piracy," which Godfrey Jansen described as "another item" in Israel's long list of international thuggery." "To maintain the maritime terrorist fiction," he adds, "the Israelis then bombed and bombarded a small island off Tripoli which was said to be a base for PLO seaborne operations," a claim that he dismisses as "absurd." The Lebanese police reported that 15 were killed, 20 wounded and 20 missing, all Lebanese, fishermen and children at a Sunni boy scout camp which was the "worst hit" target. . (New York Times June 30th, July1st 1984; Middle East International, Boston Globe, Middle East Reporter, London Observer also at these dates) ... In its report on the Israeli "interception" (more accurately, hijacking) of the ferryboat, the Times observes that prior to the 1982 war, "the Israeli Navy regularly intercepted ships bound for or leaving the ports of Tyre and Sidon in the south and searched them for guerrillas," as usual accepting Israeli claims at face value; (Chomsky, p.64) ... Similarly, Israel's hijacking of a Libyan civilian jet on February 4, 1986 was accepted with equanimity, criticized, if at all, as an error based on faulty intelligence. (Thomas Friedman, New York Times Feb5th; Los Angeles Times, same date) ...On April 25, 1985, several Palestinians were kidnapped from civilian boats operating between Lebanon and Cyprus and sent to secret destinations in Israel, a fact that became public knowledge (in Israel) when one was interviewed on Israeli television, leading to an appeal to the High Court of justice for information; (News from Within, Jerusalem Nov 1 1985) ... Even terrorism against Americans is tolerable. The Israeli terrorist attacks against U.S. installations (also, public places) in Egypt in 1954 in an attempt to exacerbate U.S-Egyptian relations and abort secret peace negotiations then in progress were ignored at the time and are barely remembered, much as in the case of the attempt to sink the U.S. spy ship Liberty in international waters in 1967 by Israeli bombers and torpedo boats that even shot lifeboats out of the water in an effort to ensure that no one would escape, with 34 crewmen killed and 171 injured, the worst peacetime U.S. naval disaster of the century, but dismissed as an "error" - a transparent absurdity - and barely known. (See James Ennes' 'The USS Liberty: Back in the News', American-Arab Affairs, also A Journey Through the Cold War Brookings Institute 2001) Chomsky notes that Raymond Garthoff, a highly respected scholar with close intelligence connections and personal experience, writes that "Our military and intelligence agencies were unanimous in finding it to have been a deliberate and unprovoked Israeli air and sea attack, but President Johnson was determined to accept belated Israeli apologies and claims that it had resulted form misidentification of the US ship, no matter how lacking in credibility these excuses were" (Chomsky footnote 106 , p198) ...Similarly, torture of Americans by the Israeli Army in the West Bank and southern Lebanon is barely noted in the media, with Israeli denials highlighted and verification by the U.S. Ambassador in Israel ignored. (see Middle East International May 16 1986, Boston Globe April 15, NYT April 16 1986. See Houston Chronicle May 18, 1984 for details of businessman Mike Mansour's detention and torture) To finish with a comment on airplane hijacking, Chomsky states that "The first airplane hijacking in the Middle East was carried out by Israel in December 1954, when a Syrian Airways civilian jet was intercepted by Israeli fighters and forced to land at Lydda airport"... Prime Minister Moshe Sharrett wrote privately that "we had no justification whatever to seize the plane" and that he had no reason to doubt the truth of the factual affirmation of the US State Department that our action was without precedent in the history of international practice." None of the above prevented Benjamin Netanyahu going on national television and accusing the PLO of "inventing the hijacking of airplanes and the killing of diplomats". As for killing diplomats, what about the assassination of UN Meditator Folke Bernadotte in 1948 by a terrorist group led by Yitzhak Shamir? >>Never heard about Israel in Latin America. Could you please elaborate.<< I'll get to that in a day or two. mike in barcelona ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #15 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)