From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #9 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, January 7 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 009 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: 'prepare' njc [colin ] re: 'prepare' njc [=?iso-8859-1?q?Joseph=20Francis?= ] Radio 2 ["Tamsin Lucas" ] Prepare, NJC ["Laurent Olszer" ] NJC Re: Joni Mitchell Tribute night at Club Passim [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Joni Mitchell Tribute night at Club Passim- Part 2 [AsharaJM@aol.com] Re: NJC Re: Joni Mitchell Tribute night at Club Passim [AsharaJM@aol.com] T'Log [Ron Greer ] Re: Travelogue/Performance thoughts [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: NJC Re: Joni Mitchell Tribute night at Club Passim [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Re: 'prepare' njc ["Mark Connely" ] Re: Prepare, NJC [colin ] Re: Prepare, NJCcorrection [colin ] NJC Grammy nominations announced [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Prepare, NJCMORE [colin ] Re: NJC Grammy nominations announced [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: NJC Grammy nominations announced ["Victor Johnson" ] 2003 NAMM (SJC) ["Happy The Man" ] Re: 'prepare' njc [sl.m@shaw.ca] prepare NJC ["kasey simpson" ] Re: prepare NJC [colin ] Hejira snippet on NPR ["Marianne Rizzo" ] Re: Hejira snippet on NPR [Jerry Notaro ] Re: 'prepare' njc [sl.m@shaw.ca] Magdalene sisters Coming to a cinema near you ( hopefully) [Chorando6@aol] Re: Chinese cafe lyrics etc... ["Stephen Toogood" ] Re: Stryngs - sample tracks on web (finally) (NJC) ["Stephen Toogood" ] Re: NYTimes.com Article: Joni Mitchell's Long and Restless Journey ["St] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 08:17:54 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: 'prepare' njc sl.m@shaw.ca wrote: > Colin, if you think anti-Semitism is vague, I will use Jew-hating > instead. > > You said that the propaganda from all sides is sick and disgusting. Do > you include your own views in that description? Or do the rest of us > only THINK we are right, whereas you ARE right? > Not as clever as you think. No where have I presented an' I am right' argument. I have merely pointed out that imo, all sides to this are are dishing out lies, bigotry, and manipulation. Labelling dissenters from your views as anti jewish is an attempt to bamboozleand just the same tactic as all despots have used. Most intelligent people recognize this attempt for what it is. As human beings everything is filtered thru our brain.The world we experience is not the world that IS but the world as interpreted by our brains and ideas. That is NOT Truth. Your hatred of the Arabs is based upon your ideas and interpretations, not Truth. In short, ideas are NOT truth. they are merely our ideas. There is 'good' and 'bad' amongst all peoples. to pretend otherwise is merely an attempt to bamboozle by those whose main aim is to have their idea preside over the ideas of others. Power is all about having one's ideas prevail. As Suzzi pointed out, this has beeen going on forever and no one has learned anything. It is still going on. If people here spoke about black people the way people are speaking about the Arab people, there would be uproar. If all black people were equated with Mugabe, the bigotry would be obvious. It seems to be bigoted towards Arabs is the in thing and acceptable. Shame. There is no doubt that a small number of people who have power in the middle East are indeed as bad as theyare painted. That is fair comment. To label ALL of the people's of the ME as such is ignorant. The majority of them are trapped. Tho as with most situations, it could be different if people worked together and rose up and overthrew these people. It is NO accident that societies and groups teach their children their ideas. It gaurantees adults who toe the line. This applies to all peoples, including our own societies. There is plenty of evil perpetrated in our societies but we ignore that in favour of looking elsewhere for it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 22:01:22 +1300 (NZDT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Joseph=20Francis?= Subject: re: 'prepare' njc Hmmmm, very interesting discussions. I agree with Sarah about the Jews being a little less bloodthirsty than Palestine. After all, the land in question was won when Palestine attacked Isreal way-back-when for no reason at all, and Isreal won against all odds and kept the land (sorry for lack of detail - I never was good at remembering facts and dates in History class......lol). >>>There is no truth in the world. Truth is a quality that attaches to ideas, or more accurately, to propositions. It is a quality that is given to certain propositions by human beings. Truth has no existence that is independent of propositions, and propositions are creations of the human mind.<<< As a Christian, I'd have to disagree with the above. I couldn't live like that. It seems a very despairing way to live and to think about the world. I believe in God (I have seen too many things not to), but of course you could say that this was only my version of "truth". But whether you believe it or not, there IS a universal truth - and a right and wrong. If we all decide what is right and wrong, what then? Who is right? Mother Theresa's version of 'right/truth' or Hitler's version? I think Joni gets to the crux of this in the lines: If you're smart or rich or lucky, Maybe you'll beat the laws of man But the inner laws of spirit And the outer laws of nature No man can. - -The Wolf That Lives in Lindsey. Yeah, damn straight :) I have to agree with that. Not to recognize that there is this universal law is a little childish I think, and it elevates a person to think he/she is the center of their own little universe ;) No offense intended. Still, interesting discussion :) Joseph http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies - - What's on at your local cinema? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 11:07:12 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: 'prepare' njc >As a Christian, I'd have to disagree with the above. I >couldn't live like that. It seems a very despairing >way to live and to think about the world. > it isn't desparing at all. It is liberating and joyous. > I believe in >God (I have seen too many things not to), but of >course you could say that this was only my version of >"truth". But whether you believe it or not, there IS a >universal truth - and a right and wrong. > There probably is but you do not know what it si and neither do I nor does anyone else. > >If we all decide what is right and wrong, what then? >Who is right? Mother Theresa's version of >'right/truth' or Hitler's version? > The point you are missing is that YOU have decided what is right or wrong. No one else has. the fact that you have decided to follow someone elses idea of right of wrong, does not mean you have not decided. > >I think Joni gets to the crux of this in the lines: > >If you're smart or rich or lucky, >Maybe you'll beat the laws of man >But the inner laws of spirit >And the outer laws of nature >No man can. > >-The Wolf That Lives in Lindsey. > >Yeah, damn straight :) > agree. pain and suffering are indications we have it wrong.(generally speaking of course -too many us this as an excsue to blame victims of disease etc) >I have to agree with that. Not to recognize that there >is this universal law is a little childish I think, > I am not sure anyone said there was no universal law. However, childishness to me is not being able to cope with uncertainty, having no answers, and following someone elses code of conduct instead of thinking for oneself. it is abdicating responsibility. I find it difficult to undnerstand why people cannot or will not see this. Even a person's faith, tho they say it is in God, is in fact faith in themselves and their own judgement. It is their own judgement that has decided that something or other is The Truth. Therefore the faith held is in that judgement, not in anything else. This is a dangerous situation b4ecause closed minds cannot be righted and much evil(look at the world) results from it. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 13:04:09 +0000 From: "Tamsin Lucas" Subject: Radio 2 Hello, I've been lurking about for the last couple of months and enjoying all the posts. De-lurking to tell you I heard the tail end of "Tracks of my Years" on Radio 2 this morning, once a week an arist picks a couple of songs which have meant a lot to them and explain why. Julia Fordham picked "A Case of You" (followed by Ricki Lee's Chuck E's in Love) and told a tale of her approaching JM after hearing her sing it (didn't catch when but must have been some time ago) and said "that's a wonderful song" (paraphrasing) to which JM replied "I know." She then explained that after that she bought Blue and really got into JM. Then they played the tracks, nice to hear in the office :) Back into lurk-dom, tamsin _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 13:21:34 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Prepare, NJC Laurent wrote: > >Those who chastised Bill for his use of the term "chosen people" are not aware > >of the meaning of these words. It simply means that God has chosen the jews > >to fulfill the 613 commandments of the Torah, for the benefit of the entire > >mankind. > > > >In other words jews have the responsibility to follow the law to ensure order > >in the world, whereas non-jews are not obligated. > > Colin wrote: > > > and this is where the argument falls flat on it's face. The above is > nothing more than an idea, it is not the Truth. If people cannot tell > the difference bewteen their ideas and 'Ttruth' there is little hope. > > > I am sick and tired of reading racist crap from both sides of this > argument. the propanganda for ALL SIDES is sick and disgusting. I AM RIGHT I AM RIGHT IAM RIGHT. Colin, You have an amazing capacity to: 1) pass judgment on things you know nothing about: A) Since when are you a religious scholar who can tell the rest of us what the meaning of the phrase "chosen people" is? Unlike what you think, I didn't just pop an "idea" out of the blue when I wrote this. Here is a phrase with a hidden meaning. If one listens to the words, one gets the wrong idea about its meaning (as has been used by antisemites to show that jews felt superior to non-jews). Hence the needed correction. B) "let alone the fact that arabs are semites": again this reflects your ignorance of the whole topic. Ever since the 19th century, "antisemitism" has been used exclusively to mean anti-jewish. If you had done your homework you'd know that. 2) simplify the argument to one phrase: One takes one "idea" out of a post which is flawed (in this case it wasn't, but let's assume it was since I make mistakes too) and then one "destroys" the whole argument. I've seen it happen many times on this list, instead of addressing the whole picture it's easier to just single out one idea, sometimes even out of context. In this particular case, my point about the "chosen people" was a mere disgression from the entire argument. So for you to say my whole "argument falls flat on its face" is intellectually wrong. Actually you didn't even say "whole" but it was inferred. See my point? Since you're sick and tired of this thread, may I suggest you refrain yourself from reading related posts and writing about it and by doing so you'll avoid adding fuel to the fire and keeping the thread alive. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 08:33:07 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: Joni Mitchell Tribute night at Club Passim > How can you not love a club that has this on their regular menu? > > "Painted Pony"- This selection is captive on the carousel > of time, using only > seasonal, local produce. And here I thought HORSEMEAT was only served in the finer South Carolina establishments! So glad to see you're off that vegetarian nonsense Ashara...and of course nothing complements a plate full of grilled pony like an icy cold KING COBRA! :~) All kidding out the window, THANKS for this great review (Part 1, and yes I'm waiting anxiously for Part 2). Like I said, I did catch the end of the night, wish I had heard it all but it was also very cool watching a basketball game in which my son made the winning shot at the buzzer. Whoo-Hoo! And I appreciate your comparisons of the night to the covers CD's...as YOU know, when you get 75% good, you've achieved something. Bob NP: Ani, "Going Down" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 08:37:15 EST From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Joni Mitchell Tribute night at Club Passim- Part 2 14) Stephen Kellogg- Raised on Roberry: "I got nervous on my way out of the dressing room becauseI have my guitar in a tuning it's never been in before, and I could never get it in again." Stephen proceeded to try to lay out 3 legal sized sheets of words on three stools and said he was "just getting to know Joni Mitchell. He did a fairly good rendition of the song, and had a good sense of humor. Halfway through the song, he said (while still strumming) "we're doing good, as it gets closer to this side of the stage (referring to his lyric sheets) I'll be able to look at you more." 15) Meg Hutchinson was also on the list, but wasn't there. 16) Anne Heaton- For Free: Anne came in from NYC for this, and sang a beautiful pretty much dead-on rendition of the song. Great piano chops and very sweet voice. 17) Vance Gilbert- Goodbye Porkpie Hat: "No one liked this album when it came out, no one knows this song, so I thought it would be a good song to do because none of you would know it if I f-ked it up!" Vance absolutely nailed this one. He totally brought it in, and owned this song. It was a great, really blusey, jazzy version and after "It's very unlikely we'll be driven out of town Or be hung in a tree" instead of "That's unlikely" he sang "although with this administration that's more and more likely" which sent absolute shivers down my spine. He even took a trumpet solo (mouth trumpet) which, if you closed your eyes, you would have sworn it was the real thing. Definite A+ on this one. 18) Gregory Douglas- Court and Spark: Again, a nice, authenic version. 19) Ari- Blue: Too much angst for me. 20) Christopher Williams- A Case of You: When Christopher started in his clear guitar style, we all looked at each other, trying to figure out what he was going to play. We couldn't guess until he sang the first few words. A ver sweet version with very different chording on the guitar. 21) Bridget Matros- Cactus Tree: When Bridget (who works with ChuckE) started out, I thought, " I like this. She has a sweet soprano voice, her guitar picking is nice, and the song fits her. Then, out of nowhere (and I think Anne described it best by saying it was a schizophrenic version of Cactus Tree) she started shouting, really shouting the song, which hurt my ears. At the end, she went back to the first style, and if she had kept that first style, I would have really loved this version. She was young, the song was a perfect fit, and without the shouting would have a been a great song for her. 22) Mark Erelli- Carey: "There are lots of reasons to like Joni- her angelic voice, impossibly difficult lyrics, but I like her for her interviews." What I can say about Mark is that this was the most fun song of the evening. Imagine a real twangy, cowboy-style version, and you've got this rendition. I swear I could hear the clip-clopping of Roy Rogers horse coming into the club! As Anne said, "Cowboy Joni!!" He definitely grabbed the audience, and in the middle (while still strumming) he sang, "I like the clapping- keep it up til the end of the song.......cuz Joni wouldn't even let you clap along.....!" Fun, and really different. 23) Dave Dersham- Cold Blue Steel: I would have like to have heard Dave pick one of Joni's slower, more ballady songs. Cold Blue Steel didn't fit him at all. He seemed to have a nice voice, and I was longing to hear it in one of her other songs. 24) Rachael Davis- My Old Man: When Rachael introduced this song as the song she couldn't get out of her mind when she first heard it 5 years ago when she was a senior in High School, (HIGH SCHOOL, no less!) After Anne (sweet, darling Anne) reminded me that I was the MOTHER of a High School senior 5 years ago, I was ready to *really* dislike this young woman! (kidding) Oh, this version was sweet, sweet, SWEET!! Rachael has the sweetest clear voice and was accompanied by a wonderful guitarist who stuck in a very unexpected chord- to my ears perhaps a Major 7th chord. Whatever it was it worked SO nicely and was SO unexpected! A+ for this version!! 25) David Goldfinger- Urge For Going: "I'm not sure why I was chosen to be last, but when Matt saw I was going to play Urge For Going, perhaps he thought it would be a great subliminal message for all of you. (As if sitting for 3 hours in a folding chair wasn't enough to get you to leave!)" David was joined by John Anderson on upright bass, which was a nice touch. He doesn't have a great voice, but it was a nice rendition, and one of my favorite Joni songs, so I was pleased. Wish you all could have joined us as it was a great evening with great friends and music. All 22 artists donated their time to benefit this incredible club which says so much about Passim. It's one of my favorite venues, and I am hoping it will be around for a long time to come! Thanks Matt and all the artists who made this such an enjoyable night. Hugs, Ashara (Who is eternally grateful that the listers here don't do such a brutally honest review of my performance at Jonifest!) :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 08:43:21 EST From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Re: Joni Mitchell Tribute night at Club Passim In a message dated 1/7/2003 8:33:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, SCJoniGuy writes: > And I appreciate your comparisons of the night to the covers CD's...as YOU > know, when you get 75% good, you've achieved something. > It's true. In honor of the evening, I threw in a disk or 2 of the covers project while typing up the review, and realized once again how precious the really good covers are in the sea of.....uh....well......not-so hot ones. :-) Thanks again and again for taking on this project. It's fun to hear so many different styles. (And yes, I *do* listen to them, Bob!! LOL!!) Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 15:49:14 +0200 From: Ron Greer Subject: T'Log Hi first off happy christmas, new year, hannukah, eid, whatever, etc to everyone!!! :-) ( i had a dead pc at home so i guess i missed all the festive stuff!!) so the other day i stopped at my local independendent cd shop to see about these special offers they were advertising. they proudly informed me that they had all the cds being advertised on tv at good prices. ignoring those racks i went straight to the bargain bins - leo kottke, john martyn, roger mcguinn, stevie nicks, inner circle - all for the ridiculous price of R 20.00 (currently around US$2.50) each. plus a further 10% discount for joining their club.... so just for the hell of it i asked them if they had travelogue. theyd never heard of joni mitchell (!!!) but they offered to phone head office - so he picks up the phone - & asks them if they've got any copies of "WATERLOG" by joni mitchell. once id finished laughing i corrected him & he told me they didnt have it. so off i go to the somewhat distant major cd chain which stocks quality cds. i was most amazed to see that they have it in stock, and at a reasonable price. so i take a listen to it through the headphones in the shop. strangely enough - "WATERLOG" is probably a very apt name for the album... :-) probably nice - but not my cup of tea. compare it back to back with "hejira" and its just not even in the same league. so i went & bought rory block's "confessions of a blues singer" instead. wow - - not just in the same league as, but a serious contender with "hejira" & "shadows & light" for the best album i have ever heard!!!!! ron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 08:51:57 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Travelogue/Performance thoughts Scott wrote: > Again - I've enjoyed the posts. Particulary the ones that > don't have NJC > in the subject heading. Hi Scott, and thanks for sharing your thoughts on T'log. While I'm less than blown away with it, I appreciate it for what it is, and hope that Joni still has some things left to say to us in the future. We need intelligent songwriters now more than ever! In regards to the "NJC" comment, just in case you don't know you can select an option that will automatically weed out those messages. People sometimes slip and forget to use NJC, but for the most part it works pretty well. I also enjoyed your "20 performances" list. I was surprised to see "Tea Leaf" there as I for the life of me find nothing of value in that song whatsoever. So if you feel like it, I'd be interested to know what you appreciate about it. Not so I can disagree, but rather so maybe I can listen for what you're hearing. I won't list 20, but among my favorites: Black Crow from Shadows & Light Down to You (sung with the perfect amount of emotional commitment/detachment, this song just sends me to another place) Woodstock from Canadaigua, NY 1983 (she gets carried off with the audience and just keeps jamming that closing riff for 6 minutes or so...very cool) Both Sides Now, Atlanta 98 (because I was there and was totally surprised and reduced to a puddle of whimpering goo) Little Green/Circle Game, Philadelphia Folk Festival 1968 (an amazing medley where she intertwines these two songs, mixing the joys of watching a child grow older with the sorrows of giving up those joys before they're even experienced - a revelation of a performance). Anyway, welcome, thanks for stepping out and speaking up. Bob NP: Ani, "Joyful Girl" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 09:23:35 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Re: Joni Mitchell Tribute night at Club Passim In a message dated 1/7/2003 8:43:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, AsharaJM writes: > (And yes, I *do* listen to them, Bob!! LOL!!) Whoa, THREE posts from Ashara in a 24-hour period...I am reeling! :~D Thanks again SO much for the detailed review(s), and realize that this does NOT relieve Chris and the rest from posting about this show! :~) Glad too that you do listen to my coasters. Modern technology being what it is, it's not too tough to make a mix of whichever ones tickle your fancy. But it's tough as the Covers VP for me to make those picks; for instance I LOVE that Steve Fisk techno-Woodstock on Volume 36, but I doubt that other would feel the same. And further to Anne's comment...Anne, this night was FAR from a "greatest hits" revue...of course, you're not going to have a Joni tribute night without a BSN, Woodstock & a BYT, but I found the choices to be very adventurous. Raised on Robbery, Cold Blue Steel, My Old Man (and such an outstanding version!), & the run from Black Crow-Borderline(!)-Morning Morgantown-Willy-Come In From The Cold(!!), NONE of these are commonly done. Matter of fact, there are NO released covers of Come In, Borderline, or VOCAL covers of My Old Man (believe it or not). Even her biggest hit, "Help Me" doesn't get covered much. As pretty as it is, it's NOT an easy song to sing - even kd lang struggled with it and she's a highly-skilled vocalist. Well, don't start me to talking 'bout covers as you know I can ramble all day. Bob NP: Ani, "Used To You" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 07:28:17 -0800 From: "Mark Connely" Subject: Re: Re: 'prepare' njc Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 22:33:02 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: 'prepare' njc At the risk of boring everyone with philosophical dissection: - -->And at the risk of creating a confusing three-way discussion.... sl.m@shaw.ca wrote: > I didn't say idea = truth. Not all ideas are true. You also said "What do you take "truth" to be, if not an idea?" - --->You have to distinguish between the idea of truth (truth per se), and that which is true (that which is the case). > In other words, truth is about LANGUAGE and perhaps thought. It is about us. > > It is correct to say that the idea of a tree is not a tree. But > there is nothing about a tree (or a waterfall) that is connected to > truth. There are more meanings to the word "truth" than the meaning you are giving it, as in 'something is true or false' (within the confines of logical thought). The truth is that which is. That which exists. - -----> Again, truth and that which is true are as different as "blue" and that which is blue. One is an idea, the other an actuality. > I would also say that an idea is not an image in the memory banks of > the brain. The brain, keeper of ideas, is a memory bank. - ------> And so much more! It can create new knowledge from existing facts! > The idea of "the Good" is not an image in the memory banks > of anyone's brain. You are saying an idea is not an idea? - ------> No, I believe she is saying that an idea is more than just a memory. It is a dynamic function of mind that allow new things to come to light. the mind (or brain, as you prefer) has this amazing ability to abstract the essence of things....from all blue things seen it creates the idea of blueness. This was Aristotle's great discovery, and it was how he turned Plato upside down. Thanks for this discussion. I love waking up to this stuff, starts the day on the right foot, ya know? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 16:12:14 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Prepare, NJC Laurent Olszer wrote: >Laurent wrote: > > >>>Those who chastised Bill for his use of the term "chosen people" are not >>> >>> >aware > > >>>of the meaning of these words. It simply means that God has chosen the >>> >>> >jews > > >>>to fulfill the 613 commandments of the Torah, for the benefit of the >>> >>> >entire > > >>>mankind. >>> >>>In other words jews have the responsibility to follow the law to ensure >>> >>> >order > > >>>in the world, whereas non-jews are not obligated. >>> >>> >>> >Colin wrote: > > >>and this is where the argument falls flat on it's face. The above is >>nothing more than an idea, it is not the Truth. If people cannot tell >>the difference bewteen their ideas and 'Ttruth' there is little hope. >> >> >>I am sick and tired of reading racist crap from both sides of this >>argument. the propanganda for ALL SIDES is sick and disgusting. >> >> > >I AM RIGHT I AM RIGHT IAM RIGHT. > > >Colin, > >You have an amazing capacity to: > >1) pass judgment on things you know nothing about: > and you dear man are very good at only reading what you wish to read. My comment has nothing at all to do with whetehr or not I or you are a religiuos scholar. it has to do with the the fact the whole idea of God and a 'chosen people' is just that-an idea. It is NOT the truth.it is merely something written in a book that you and others have chosen to believe and to kill over. It is not a fact. The very idea that people thru the ages have killed because of this ridiculous mistake is astounding. > > > > >One takes one "idea" out of a post which is flawed (in this case it wasn't, >but let's assume it was since I make mistakes too) and then one "destroys" >the whole argument. > as you have just done thru your misunderstanding. > Actually you >didn't even say "whole" but it was inferred. > Let me be more clear. i think your argument is without foundation. any argument based on a an idea of God's Will is without foundation for the reasons already given > See my point? > I see what you are attempting, yes. > >Since you're sick and tired of this thread, > I din't write that I was. i wrote I was sick and tired of reading racist crap. The threa ditself is itneresting. > may I suggest you refrain >yourself from reading related posts and writing about it and by doing so >you'll avoid adding fuel to the fire and keeping the thread alive. > Oh you mean like you do? Re startingg a thread weeks after it was last discussed? Ordo you eman you would rather just have your mails accepted and agreed with and not challenged? It baffles me that iotherwise intelligent people can not see the oh so obvious flaws in their argument. You CANNOT claim the your authority, or that of Israel's, comes from a book which only men, and all of them, have decided is the Word of God. This is not fact, just an idea. > >Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 16:21:20 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Prepare, NJCcorrection >It baffles me that iotherwise intelligent people can not see the oh so >obvious flaws in their argument. You CANNOT claim the your authority, or >that of Israel's, comes from a book which only men, and > the word NOT should be here. >all of them, >have decided is the Word of God. This is not fact, just an idea. > > > >>Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 11:25:49 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: NJC Grammy nominations announced Bruce, Norah, Eminem are all nominated. Mendoza too! For full list see: http://www.grammy.com/ Next year we'll see Joni on the nominee list. Also I want to thank Anne and Ashara for their reviews of the Joni Tribute last night. It sounds like you guys had a great time! Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 16:30:22 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Prepare, NJCMORE Laurent wrote: > > >Colin, > >You have an amazing capacity to: > Colin writes: and it seems to me that you also have an amzing capacity to misnterpret what is written to suit your aim. Laurent wrote: >>>Those who chastised Bill for his use of the term "chosen people" are not >>> >>> >aware > > >>>of the meaning of these words. >>> Colin:You assume too much. Having been broguht with religion. I know what is emant by 'chosen people', just as you go on to explain. >>> It simply means that God has chosen the >>> >>> >jews > > >>>to fulfill the 613 commandments of the Torah, for the benefit of the >>> >>> >entire > > >>>mankind. >>> >>>In other words jews have the responsibility to follow the law to ensure >>> >>> >order > > >in the world, whereas non-jews are not obligated. > Colin: it is this written above that I was referring to as being merely an idea. It has no basis in provable fact. it is just a belief, an idea, passed down from gen to gen. If you think an idea like this is adequate basis for an argument, for war, for killing, then yes, i firmly believe you have no argument that stands up to scrutiny. what i find most disturbing about such beliefs is that they are held by people who ought to know better, given their intelliegence. It then seems to me that such people are know this this and are deliberately trying to bambozzle, cynically and wickedly in order to gain some personal end. If there is no distiinction bewteen beliefs and ideas and facts, then we are well and truly stuffed. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 12:00:07 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Grammy nominations announced In a message dated 1/7/2003 11:25:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, FMYFL writes: > Next year we'll see Joni on the nominee list. In the meantime maybe she can enjoy the nominations for Wayne Shorter (his solo record) & Herbie, as well as Pat Metheny. (I wonder what her relationship is with Pat these days...it would sure be nice to hear them collaborate again.) I was glad to see Bruce & Elvis & Beck & Coldplay & Me'Shell and some others get nods. But then again so did John Tesh, so there you go. Bob NP: Ani, "Gratitude" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 12:3:38 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: NJC Grammy nominations announced > I was glad to see Bruce & Elvis & Beck & Coldplay & Me'Shell and some others get nods. And India Arie! Victor - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 12:10:09 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Grammy nominations announced In a message dated 1/7/2003 3:03:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, waytoblu@mindspring.com writes: > And India Arie! Amen! Maybe this year she'll get her due respect since she was ripped off by braid-head last year. Even her duet with Stevie Wonder on a bonus track got nominated, although I wasn't really crazy about it, but only because "The Christmas Song" is SO done. Bob NP: Ani, "32 Flavors" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 09:04:51 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: 'prepare' njc Mark Connely wrote: > -->And at the risk of creating a confusing three-way discussion.... > > > The idea of "the Good" is not an image in the memory banks > > of anyone's brain. > > You are saying an idea is not an idea? > > ------> No, I believe she is saying that an idea is more than just a memory. > It is a dynamic function of mind that allow new things to come to light. > the mind (or brain, as you prefer) has this amazing ability to abstract the > essence of things....from all blue things seen it creates the idea of > blueness. From past impressions! Sure memories mutate and comingle in the brain. The idea of blueness becomes another concept or memory. All thought is old. The only way around this is to quit thought-awareness. > > This was Aristotle's great discovery, and it was how he turned Plato upside > down. > Thanks for this discussion. I love waking up to this stuff, starts the day on > the right foot, ya know? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 11:47:32 -0600 From: "Happy The Man" Subject: 2003 NAMM (SJC) Anyone attending the NAMM concert? Like to hear how Diana Krall's and others do and what songs they cover by Sir EJ. I have learned to love Miss Krall since her Joni Cover. Peace, Craig NP: Caedmons Call - Ballard of San Francisco ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 11:46:35 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: 'prepare' njc If I say truth is an idea, that is not the same as saying all ideas are true. Orange is a colour, but not all colours are orange. The "truth" is not that which exists. Truth is a concept, a human construct. What is, is. It is neither true nor false. > > The idea of "the Good" is not an image in the memory banks >> of anyone's brain. > You are saying an idea is not an idea? No, I am saying an idea is not an image in anyone's memory banks. I think abstract ideas exist independently of whether anyone has them in their memory banks. I am arguing, following Wittgenstein, that the world is everything that is the case. And that this (what is the case) is a human construct, a quality of language. And we can't say anything beyond that, because we can't say anything beyond language. We can't know "the tree" because we have no direct access to it. As W. said, "Wovon mann nicht sprechen kann, dar|ber muss man schweigen." Whereof we cannot speak, we must pass over in silence. Sarah At 10:33 PM -0800 01/06/2003, Randy Remote wrote: >At the risk of boring everyone with philosophical dissection: > >sl.m@shaw.ca wrote: > >> I didn't say idea = truth. Not all ideas are true. >> >> I said truth is a quality that attaches to propositions, not to the world. > >You also said >"What do you take "truth" to be, if not an idea?" > >> >> >> In other words, truth is about LANGUAGE and perhaps thought. It >>is about us. >> >> It is correct to say that the idea of a tree is not a tree. But >> there is nothing about a tree (or a waterfall) that is connected to >> truth. > >There are more meanings to the word "truth" than the meaning you >are giving it, as in 'something is true or false' (within the confines of >logical thought). >The truth is that which is. That which exists. > >> It would be meaningless to say "this tree is true". > >I bumped my head on one once (which explains alot). The tree >was the truth. > >> >> >> Things in the world cannot be true or false. Only propositions can >> be true or false. The world as we know it (as we think and talk >> about it) is a series of facts and ideas, > >the world as we know, or concieve of it, is our image of it >filtered through thought. It is not the world. > >> which we express as >> propositions. So "this tree is green" may be true. But that is a >> sentence (a proposition), which is a human construct. It is not the >> world. It is not the tree. >> >> We do not have any direct knowledge of the world. > >When I bumped into the tree I did! The reason we are removed >from the truth of the world is because our brains conceptualize it. >We live in a false world of mentation which we separate and call >reality, or ourselves, ego, etc. > >> >> I would also say that an idea is not an image in the memory banks of >> the brain. > >The brain, keeper of ideas, is a memory bank. > > > The idea of "the Good" is not an image in the memory banks >> of anyone's brain. > >You are saying an idea is not an idea? >I would have to completely disagree with that. The idea of the >'good' is an idea, based on past programming about what we >have been taught is good, or an image used to simplify, like the >guy in the white hat. That's not to say that there is not real good >(an orange, a samaritan) or real bad (violence, cruelty). > >> It may be something that people think about, but > > it is not the same thing as their thought processes. > > > > Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 12:51:29 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: prepare NJC I have enjoyed reading this thread. It is easy to see the passion in each post. Colin, you are right about truth and ideas. But our own truths individually, or as a religion, society or country are how we conduct ourselves. If you came home to find someone pouring gasoline on one of your dogs, what would you do? More importantly why would you do it? Because your truth is that it is wrong. I don't think anyone had to tell you that, or it be passed down from one generation to another. I have a great deal of respect and sympathy for the Jews. Look at their history. The blacks, Native Americans, and Hispanics have rallies, demonstrations, protest marches, and even violent outburst to be heard, counted, and treated with equality. When have you ever heard of Jews doing this? Not as slaves in Egypt, or during the holocaust, not even here in the states. Jews have passed down a belief in a God that will deliver them, and I'm in amazement of it. Christians say turn the other cheek, Jews do it. Israel has run out of cheeks, there is nothing left for them to turn. I do agree that ideology is the base for hatred, and bigotry. I also agree that knowledge, and learning is a cure. I was taught that I would go to hell for being homosexual. I was an abomination in the eyes of God. I've come to know (believe) in my truth that there is a God, and he doesn't hate me. I've also learned from the Jews, that it's ok for others to hate me. If I give them the right to hate, I earn the right to be me. Unfortunately, I still haven't learned that turn the other cheek thing:) Maybe some day! KaseyGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 18:38:54 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: prepare NJC kasey simpson wrote: >I have enjoyed reading this thread. It is easy to see the passion in each >post. >Colin, you are right about truth and ideas. But our own truths individually, >or >as a religion, society or country are how we conduct ourselves. > I don't disagree with anything you write(except maybe for the turning the other cheek thing-israel certainly does not do that and I am not suggesting they should). What I don't like is the implication that beause a person does not think Israel is entirely legetimate or right, that wrong doing and wrong attitudes exist on both sides of this terrible situtaion, that one is anti Jew. that is not fair, not right, and is bigotry and an attempt to silence. It si not diiferent to the tactics used by many countries to silence their citizens. people, quite reightly, to do not accpet unaccpetable nbehaviour from adults juts because they were bnadly treated as children. Neither should we accept the same from states. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 14:29:18 -0500 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: Hejira snippet on NPR Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 07:31:42 -0400 From: Patti Witten Subject: knock-off of Hejira snippet on NPR >As many know, the NPR daily news show Morning Edition plays snippets >of unattributed instrumental music edited between the news stories. A >few >days ago I am certain that I heard the introductory chords to "Hejira" >Patti Patti, I am happy you mentioned this. I heard it too, HEJIRA on NPR radio! (just an instrumental part) It was on Thursday, January 2nd, at 5:48 am (eastern standard time). (I live in Rochester, NY). As you said, it was a very small segment. . . but it made MY morning as I was leaving for work! Best, Marianne _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 14:41:09 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Hejira snippet on NPR This morning they played a very nice guitar Up On the Roof. Jerry Marianne Rizzo wrote: > Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 07:31:42 -0400 > From: Patti Witten > Subject: knock-off of Hejira snippet on NPR > > >As many know, the NPR daily news show Morning Edition plays snippets > >of unattributed instrumental music edited between the news stories. A >few > >days ago I am certain that I heard the introductory chords to "Hejira" > > >Patti > > Patti, > > I am happy you mentioned this. I heard it too, HEJIRA on NPR radio! (just > an instrumental part) > > It was on Thursday, January 2nd, at 5:48 am (eastern standard time). (I live > in Rochester, NY). > > As you said, it was a very small segment. . . but it made MY morning as I > was leaving for work! > > Best, > Marianne > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 14:10:55 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: 'prepare' njc Regarding some of the anti-American sentiment I've seen expressed on this list in recent weeks, here's a quote from a speech Tony Blair gave today: "I am not surprised by anti-Americanism, but it is a foolish indulgence. For all their faults, and all nations have them, the US are a force for good; they have liberal and democratic traditions of which any nation can be proud. I sometimes think it is a good rule of thumb to ask of a country: are people trying to get into it or out of it? It's not a bad guide to what sort of country it is." Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 15:15:00 EST From: Chorando6@aol.com Subject: Magdalene sisters Coming to a cinema near you ( hopefully) a little something for one and all. The Magdalene Sisters: A controversial winner of the golden Lion at the 2002 venice film festival, Peter mullan's Magdalene sisters establishes the Actor/director as a vital and potent force in british Cinema. Set in Ireland during the 1960's, the film dramatises the lives of three young women sent to a catholic Church/Irish government sanctioned Magdalene laundry for fallen women as a punishment for their 'sins'. Cut off from their families by the sadistic nuns who run the establishment, the young women enter a world of insufferable pain and torment. A savage indictment of a vicious and uncaring system that emphasizes religious dogma above all else. The Magdalene sisters is a powerful and profoundly humane statement and an essential viewing experience. Opens in Brighton on the 21st Febuary....elsewhere check press for details. xxx Clive ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 20:18:19 -0000 From: "Stephen Toogood" Subject: Re: Chinese cafe lyrics etc... Yeah I always thought that line sounded a bit familiar. She mentions the name Carole in the song too! STEVE T. NP: 'Beautiful' ~ Carole King > Sorry if this has been mentioned before (it probably > has seeing I am new to the list) but anyway... > > I was listening to Chinese Cafe/Unchained Melody > today, and I noticed that in the second verse she > sings "you give your love so sweetly", which is > actually the second line from the Carol King song > "Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow" made famous by The > Shirelles - > > ---snip--- > > Tonight you're mine completely > You give you love so sweetly > Tonight the light of love is in your eyes > But will you love me tomorrow? > > ---snip--- > > I just wondered why the writers of Unchained Melody > are mentioned in the copyrights etc for the song, but > not Carol King? Maybe using one line isn't enough to > infringe on copyright? A lot more of Unchained Melody > was used, after all... > > Joseph > > > http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies > - What's on at your local cinema? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 20:18:27 -0000 From: "Stephen Toogood" Subject: Re: Stryngs - sample tracks on web (finally) (NJC) As you know Chris I've listened to most of it and I love it. Good luck with the release and you know you can put me down for a copy. "I heard it in the wind last night, sounded like applause." STEVE T. NP: 'Beautiful' ~ Carole King > Shameless self-promotion time once again folks. > > I'm playing bass these days in a band called "Stryngs", > along with our very own Martin Giles on guitar, and > Sarah Stringer (a.k.a Strings, not on the list, but likes > Joni anyway) on vocals. > > We've been burning up studio time like it's going out of > fashion of late, and we're still plugging away, but some > of the material is in a state where we can release a few > tasters in advance of the CD being ready. It's not > properly mixed yet, and there might yet be some other > changes, but this is stuff we're pretty damn happy with > so far. > > To that end, I've put sample fragments of four tracks > up on our web site, http://www.stryngs.com/ > > I've been looking forward to this point for so very long now: > being able to finally let you, my friends on the JMDL, hear > the fruits of our labours. I'm so looking forward to hearing > your feedback. > > If you want to reach the whole band, use bandATstryngs.com, > replacing "AT" with @ > > And yes, before you ask, our website is still under > construction. Aren't they all? > > Cheers, > > --Chris Marshall > chris@hatstand.org > > "The hearth rug of joy has been yanked from beneath my feet, > and as the cress seeds of self doubt germinate in the > beer-sodden student carpet of my mind, > I lay my face gently atop the threadbare pillow of despair." > > (Inspired by Douglas Adams book titles, and, well, other stuff) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 20:18:39 -0000 From: "Stephen Toogood" Subject: Re: Radio 2 Yes I heard it too. It's always nice to hear Joni on the radio. They played 'A Case Of You' last week aswell which makes a change from 'Big Yellow Taxi'. Now if R2 played something from THOSL that would really amaze me! STEVE T NP: 'Way Over Yonder' ~ Carole King > Hello, > I've been lurking about for the last couple of months and enjoying all the > posts. De-lurking to tell you I heard the tail end of "Tracks of my Years" > on Radio 2 this morning, once a week an arist picks a couple of songs which > have meant a lot to them and explain why. Julia Fordham picked "A Case of > You" (followed by Ricki Lee's Chuck E's in Love) and told a tale of her > approaching JM after hearing her sing it (didn't catch when but must have > been some time ago) and said "that's a wonderful song" (paraphrasing) to > which JM replied "I know." > She then explained that after that she bought Blue and really got into JM. > Then they played the tracks, nice to hear in the office :) > Back into lurk-dom, > tamsin > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 20:18:31 -0000 From: "Stephen Toogood" Subject: Re: NYTimes.com Article: Joni Mitchell's Long and Restless Journey Thats plain nasty! STEVE T NP: 'Way Over Yonder' ~ Carole King > Joni Mitchell's Long and Restless Journey > > January 5, 2003 > By JOHN ROCKWELL > > > JONI MITCHELL'S new "Travelogue" isn't billed as a > farewell, but it's hard to see it any other way. Ms. > Mitchell is 58, and her once-girlish soprano is now a frail > and unsteady mezzo. This personally (not to say > idiosyncratically) chosen, newly arranged collection of 22 > of her songs from 1966 to 1994 presumably represents some > sort of retrospective summa. > > Of course, it's always dangerous to presume anyone's > motivations, let alone those of an artist as hermetically > private as Ms. Mitchell. But in addition to this quasi > memorial to herself (Nonesuch, two CD's), she has chosen to > blast the music industry in a recent interview in Rolling > Stone, denouncing the business as a cesspool and MTV's > vulgarity, as she sees it, as "tragic." Having now fled her > longtime base of Reprise, she didn't flee too far, however, > since Nonesuch is also part of AOL Time Warner. > > As a longtime admirer of Ms. Mitchell - I even lived in her > Laurel Canyon neighborhood in the early 70's - I must > confess that my first reaction to this new set was one of > horror. Asked recently by WNYC-FM to appear on air with > some emblematic examples of American music in the 20th > century, I thought of her song "Amelia," which was once my > prime evidence when I called her a 20th-century American > Schubert. > > The song appears on Ms. Mitchell's 1976 album "Hejira," > which is full of songs about flight and wandering and > loneliness. "Amelia" is Amelia Earhart, the doomed > aviatrix. Ms. Mitchell's words tie together place and heart > and mind, myth and history, womanhood and a lost love. She > starts by evoking the emptiness of the desert and the sky, > six jet vapor trails "like the hexagram of the heavens, > like the strings of my guitar." Her "life becomes a > travelogue" - you see how central this one song is to this > new retrospective travelogue of her life in song. > > Suddenly she's missing a lover. She equates herself with > Amelia and with Icarus, "ascending on beautiful foolish > arms." > > "I've spent my whole life at icy altitudes," she muses. > "And looking down on everything/ I crashed into his arms." > > Finally she pulls in to a desert motel, showers and sleeps > "on the strange pillows of my wanderlust," dreaming "of > 747's/ Over geometric farms." > > On the original studio recording, the accompaniment is > electric guitars and vibraphones, electronically sustaining > Ms. Mitchell's own inimitable vocals, cool and clipped, and > almost pushing this sad, intimate, conversational song > along to its conclusion. Even better, really, is the live > version on her album "Shadows and Light" of 1980, just as > nervously forward-moving but with a guitar backing closer > to her folkish roots. > > The new version, indeed the entire album, comes dressed > (overdressed) in orchestral /soft-jazz arrangements by > Larry Klein. Mr. Klein and Ms. Mitchell were married for > eight years, and although they broke up domestically in > 1994, they have continued to collaborate professionally, > having now completed nine projects together. > > Having heard "Amelia" in its new guise, I think I called it > an abomination on the radio. Now I've listened to the whole > album. One must make allowances for an artist's right to > evolve and for fans' right to cling, even unfairly, to what > they once loved. And one must concede a certain winsome > communicativeness in Ms. Mitchell's vocal weaknesses. But I > still think this set is pretty terrible. > > Part of the problem is simple taste. I personally have > little use for the kind of bloated symphonic jazz heard > here. Ms. Mitchell clearly does have a taste for it, so > much so that she now chops up the urgent flow of "Amelia" > for soggy orchestral ditherings between the verses. > > Any artist must constantly question his or her past > accomplishments; to repeat oneself risks becoming a hack. > In fairness, Ms. Mitchell has undertaken a hejira of her > own over some 23 albums (depending on how you count). From > folk to folk rock to jazz (or jazz folk), all with her own > highly personal inventiveness, and now to this, it's been a > trip that has alienated fans along the way, throwing them > off the curves, as it were. But the journey has presumably > helped keep her fresh. > > That said, restless experimentation also suggests a quality > of unwelcome self-indulgence that has always marked her > music and her personality. When one confronts the really > naove paintings that proliferate in the lavish booklet with > which these two CD's are packaged - let alone the > rudimentary "multi-media content" on the one "enhanced > audio CD" - one has to wonder whether Ms. Mitchell has slid > too far into her own world. There is usually some kind of > healthy link between creator and public, or at least > imagined public, a link that sustains even the most private > artists and helps dampen the temptation toward vanity > projects like "Travelogue." > > Her early jazz experiments could be welcomed as the > honorable efforts of a folk-rock singer to connect with the > wider world of improvisation in jazz. One fears that this > album marks some sort of aspiration to "art" in the > classical, formalized sense. Nonesuch is, after all, AOL > Time Warner's prestige label, especially for classical > music and crossover projects of a certain vanguard sort. > But a self-conscious aspiration for gentility can kill the > essence of the idioms that Ms. Mitchell grew up with. > > Above, I called her singing inimitable. But of course it > isn't, quite. Right now, the best live Joni Mitchell is the > countertenor-falsettist-drag artist John Kelly in his > periodic revivals of his Joni Mitchell act, fabled in > downtown Manhattan. Mr. Kelly sings Ms. Mitchell far better > than she sings herself now. If you want her unadulterated, > buy albums like "Ladies of the Canyon," "Blue," "Court and > Spark" or "Hejira." If you want to see her in person, catch > John Kelly. > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/05/arts/music/05ROCK.html?ex=1042777812&ei=1& en=b93d8bcebd0f6a5e > > > > HOW TO ADVERTISE > --------------------------------- > For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters > or other creative advertising opportunities with The > New York Times on the Web, please contact > onlinesales@nytimes.com or visit our online media > kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo > > For general information about NYTimes.com, write to > help@nytimes.com. > > Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #9 *************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)