From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #7 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, January 6 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 007 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Joni Mitchell's Long and Restless Journey [David Marine ] Re: Covers comp? - NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: JMDL Digest V2003 #5 - Public displays of T'log affections ["Maggie M] RE: EXecution of anti Travoloers (njc) ["Maggie McNally" ] Tr: prepare NJC ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: Tr: prepare NJC [colin ] Re:Stryngs - more sample tracks (NJC) [Gertus@aol.com] Re: prepare NJC [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: Stryngs - more sample tracks (NJC) [Chris Marshall ] The Two Johns: Rockwell and Kelly ["PAUL PETERSON" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 00:21:54 -0800 From: David Marine Subject: Re: Joni Mitchell's Long and Restless Journey I find this an odd article. How is the fact that the writer lived near Joni in the 70s relevant when evaluating the recent project? Hmmm, so Joni was a 20th century American Schubert, but with the release of a single album is now a self-absorbed hack? How can one admit a prejudice against the very concept of the album, then go on to use words like "terrible" and "abomination"? Bottom line, he liked the old Joni. I agree in part with his assesment of the new lp, but this article is ridiculous. What's happened to the Times? It's the only daily that I can stand to read, but its "pop" reviews suck, vascillating between pretentiousness and idiocy. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 21:22:44 +1300 (NZDT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Joseph=20Francis?= Subject: Covers comp? - NJC As a newbie - would someone explain what this COvers Competition is? Thanks :) Joseph. http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies - - What's on at your local cinema? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 04:42:29 EST From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #5 - Public displays of T'log affections I> will say this - I'm tired of folks who know my fascination with JM coming > up to me and asking me (with expressions on their faces as though somebody > where holding a plate of shit under the nose...) "Did you HEAR the new Joni > CD?" - of course I've heard it, and once again will stand up as the > underdog, take the critique personally (I can't help it), and defend this > piece. I haven't experienced this sort of thing -- but I was sitting in Starbucks the other day when a friend passed by and excitedly mouthed something indecipherable through the window....he came in announced that T'log is totally marvelous and his favorite Joni album.... Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 12:16:29 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: The first to make "world music"? NJC David Sadowski wrote >>World music is a pretty broad term. If you think about it, when kids in England listened to blues from Chicago, wasn't that world music too?<< Fred added >>The phrase "world music" is meaningless ... it's an ethnocentric marketing designation connoting music from everywhere else on Earth other than the dominant USA/Euro culture; bottom line, isn't all human music "world music"?<< I agree with Fred (and David) but would add an important qualification to Fred's 'USA/Euro' definition. I believe what Fred is referring to (he'll correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure) is in fact 'USA/Anglo-Saxon' culture, i.e. everything sung in the English language. 'Latin American' music (sic) is Spanish and Portuguese, two European languages; 'African' music (sic) is largely in French, another European language. A lot of 'world music' comes from these two continents. Notwithstanding the fact that USA/Euro culture is everyday more USA and less European... mike in barcelona NP Annie Whitehead - Home ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 07:59:51 -0500 From: "chuty001" Subject: Re: NY Times review of Travelogue I think my 15 year old son who can't stand Joni would have given the album a farer review. Chuck - ----- Original Message ----- From: "PAUL PETERSON" To: Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 12:38 PM Subject: NY Times review of Travelogue > Here's a piece by John Rockwell, someone with a history of personal = > antipathy towards Joni's art. The idea that John Kelly is a better = > singer than Joni, past, present or future, is absurd! > > =20 > > January 5, 2003 > Joni Mitchell's Long and Restless Journey > By JOHN ROCKWELL > > =20 > ONI MITCHELL'S new "Travelogue" isn't billed as a farewell, but = > it's hard to see it any other way. Ms. Mitchell is 58, and her = > once-girlish soprano is now a frail and unsteady mezzo. This personally = > (not to say idiosyncratically) chosen, newly arranged collection of 22 = > of her songs from 1966 to 1994 presumably represents some sort of = > retrospective summa. > > Of course, it's always dangerous to presume anyone's motivations, = > let alone those of an artist as hermetically private as Ms. Mitchell. = > But in addition to this quasi memorial to herself (Nonesuch, two CD's), = > she has chosen to blast the music industry in a recent interview in = > Rolling Stone, denouncing the business as a cesspool and MTV's = > vulgarity, as she sees it, as "tragic." Having now fled her longtime = > base of Reprise, she didn't flee too far, however, since Nonesuch is = > also part of AOL Time Warner. > > As a longtime admirer of Ms. Mitchell - I even lived in her Laurel = > Canyon neighborhood in the early 70's - I must confess that my first = > reaction to this new set was one of horror. Asked recently by WNYC-FM to = > appear on air with some emblematic examples of American music in the = > 20th century, I thought of her song "Amelia," which was once my prime = > evidence when I called her a 20th-century American Schubert. > > The song appears on Ms. Mitchell's 1976 album "Hejira," which is = > full of songs about flight and wandering and loneliness. "Amelia" is = > Amelia Earhart, the doomed aviatrix. Ms. Mitchell's words tie together = > place and heart and mind, myth and history, womanhood and a lost love. = > She starts by evoking the emptiness of the desert and the sky, six jet = > vapor trails "like the hexagram of the heavens, like the strings of my = > guitar." Her "life becomes a travelogue" - you see how central this one = > song is to this new retrospective travelogue of her life in song. > > Suddenly she's missing a lover. She equates herself with Amelia = > and with Icarus, "ascending on beautiful foolish arms." > > "I've spent my whole life at icy altitudes," she muses. "And = > looking down on everything/ I crashed into his arms." > > Finally she pulls in to a desert motel, showers and sleeps "on the = > strange pillows of my wanderlust," dreaming "of 747's/ Over geometric = > farms." > > On the original studio recording, the accompaniment is electric = > guitars and vibraphones, electronically sustaining Ms. Mitchell's own = > inimitable vocals, cool and clipped, and almost pushing this sad, = > intimate, conversational song along to its conclusion. Even better, = > really, is the live version on her album "Shadows and Light" of 1980, = > just as nervously forward-moving but with a guitar backing closer to her = > folkish roots. > > The new version, indeed the entire album, comes dressed = > (overdressed) in orchestral /soft-jazz arrangements by Larry Klein. Mr. = > Klein and Ms. Mitchell were married for eight years, and although they = > broke up domestically in 1994, they have continued to collaborate = > professionally, having now completed nine projects together. > > Having heard "Amelia" in its new guise, I think I called it an = > abomination on the radio. Now I've listened to the whole album. One must = > make allowances for an artist's right to evolve and for fans' right to = > cling, even unfairly, to what they once loved. And one must concede a = > certain winsome communicativeness in Ms. Mitchell's vocal weaknesses. = > But I still think this set is pretty terrible. > > Part of the problem is simple taste. I personally have little use = > for the kind of bloated symphonic jazz heard here. Ms. Mitchell clearly = > does have a taste for it, so much so that she now chops up the urgent = > flow of "Amelia" for soggy orchestral ditherings between the verses. > > Any artist must constantly question his or her past = > accomplishments; to repeat oneself risks becoming a hack. In fairness, = > Ms. Mitchell has undertaken a hejira of her own over some 23 albums = > (depending on how you count). From folk to folk rock to jazz (or jazz = > folk), all with her own highly personal inventiveness, and now to this, = > it's been a trip that has alienated fans along the way, throwing them = > off the curves, as it were. But the journey has presumably helped keep = > her fresh. > > That said, restless experimentation also suggests a quality of = > unwelcome self-indulgence that has always marked her music and her = > personality. When one confronts the really na=EFve paintings that = > proliferate in the lavish booklet with which these two CD's are packaged = > - let alone the rudimentary "multi-media content" on the one "enhanced = > audio CD" - one has to wonder whether Ms. Mitchell has slid too far into = > her own world. There is usually some kind of healthy link between = > creator and public, or at least imagined public, a link that sustains = > even the most private artists and helps dampen the temptation toward = > vanity projects like "Travelogue." > > Her early jazz experiments could be welcomed as the honorable = > efforts of a folk-rock singer to connect with the wider world of = > improvisation in jazz. One fears that this album marks some sort of = > aspiration to "art" in the classical, formalized sense. Nonesuch is, = > after all, AOL Time Warner's prestige label, especially for classical = > music and crossover projects of a certain vanguard sort. But a = > self-conscious aspiration for gentility can kill the essence of the = > idioms that Ms. Mitchell grew up with. > > Above, I called her singing inimitable. But of course it isn't, = > quite. Right now, the best live Joni Mitchell is the = > countertenor-falsettist-drag artist John Kelly in his periodic revivals = > of his Joni Mitchell act, fabled in downtown Manhattan. Mr. Kelly sings = > Ms. Mitchell far better than she sings herself now. If you want her = > unadulterated, buy albums like "Ladies of the Canyon," "Blue," "Court = > and Spark" or "Hejira." If you want to see her in person, catch John = > Kelly. =20 > > > > > =20 > > [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of j.gif] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 08:08:18 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Covers comp? - NJC > As a newbie - would someone explain what this COvers > Competition is? Hi Joseph! Some time ago, I started gathering up (with the help of MANY in this group) covers of Joni songs and compiling them onto CD's to share with other Joni fans who enjoy them. That was a couple of years and 36 volumes ago! Each month, on or around the 1st of the month, I announce a new volume and just for the heck of it give a couple away. So as to make it fair I ask anyone interested to pick a song from one of Joni's records/cd's and send me an e-mail listing both the song title & the record/cd. For instance, this month's pick was: "Amelia" from Shadows & Light Since the song appears on 3 Joni records, it's important to name the record too, see? Anyway, this month Rose is the grand prize winner as she felt like a Black Crow flying in a blue sky, and she chose the Black Crow from S&L! Good job & congrats to you Rosalita! Runner-up & Miss Congeniality goes to Anne Sandstrom for picking "Wild Things Run Fast" from the album of the same name. Congrats to you too Anne, and please confirm your address so I'll send THIS CD to the right place! ;~) Hope that explains it somewhat Joseph. Be on the lookout for Volume #37, coming up in about a month. And of course I'm happy to make copies of this or any other volume for anyone interested. Just let me know. And if you want any more details about the project, tune into: http://www.jmdl.com/covers/ Bob NP: Death Cab For Cutie, "Styrofoam Plates" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 09:42:38 -0500 From: "Maggie McNally" Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V2003 #5 - Public displays of T'log affections In the same vein, I just came into work and my boss handed me the piece from yesterday's New York Times. She was almost apologetic about it, like I would be hurt to hear that a fan doesn't like Joni's latest work. I had to break it to her that John Rockwell was not the first fan to negatively review Travelogue. This is from the same person who came to me the other day to tell me about the Joni tribute concert (covers concert?) at Passim tonight. Exasperated, she declared that she couldn't tell me anything I didn't already know about Ms. Mitchell. True, at least so far, thanks to this list. Maggie > -----Original Message----- > From: BRYAN8847@aol.com [mailto:BRYAN8847@aol.com] > Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 4:42 AM > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #5 - Public displays of T'log > affections > > > I> will say this - I'm tired of folks who know my > fascination with JM coming > > up to me and asking me (with expressions on their faces as > though somebody > > where holding a plate of shit under the nose...) "Did you > HEAR the new Joni > > CD?" - of course I've heard it, and once again will stand up as the > > underdog, take the critique personally (I can't help it), > and defend this > > piece. > > I haven't experienced this sort of thing -- but I was sitting > in Starbucks > the other day when a friend passed by and excitedly mouthed something > indecipherable through the window....he came in announced > that T'log is > totally marvelous and his favorite Joni album.... > > Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 11:55:51 -0500 From: "Maggie McNally" Subject: RE: EXecution of anti Travoloers (njc) OK, I must jump in. For those of you who don't "get" the Grateful Dead, please go buy my brother's book, _A Long Strange Trip: The Inside History of the Grateful Dead_ by Dennis McNally (I might have bungled the latter part of the title). He was the band's publicist, came to them as a deadhead, and also has a PhD in cultural history. Chuck E. will back me up on this - once you read it, you'll "get" it. Now for the sisterly promotional thing: If you want to buy one of the few hardbound volumes left and want it autographed (it will be a collector's item, I'm sure!) call 800 499 3998, and say you want the book and you want it personalized -- they'll take a credit card # and take down the info. Think I'll sign this one: Dennis' sister Maggie > -----Original Message----- > From: RobSher50@aol.com [mailto:RobSher50@aol.com] > Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 5:47 PM > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: EXecution of anti Travoloers (njc) > > > Please don't get me started on the Grateful Dead! (now known > as "The Other > Ones") > > I work at the MCI Center in Washington, DC and had the pleasure of > encountering the "Dead Heads" while working the concert. On > the whole, they > were very nice people, but I haven't been around that much > marijuana since > high school! And I've never been around so much nitrous > oxide! Every employee > at MCI had the contact of a lifetime! Not caring for anything > mind altering, > it was hard to accept the fact that I and my cohorts were > seriously "high." I > told my daughter of the event and she laughed on the phone > hysterically! > > Musically, however, I did hear some things that I really did > like. There was > some very good music playing when I had a chance to listen. I > just don't get > the devoted following though. People came with one dog and > left with another. > The only thing I did not like was the dogs running loose in > the streets of DC > with leashes trailing behind them. Thank goodness there were > only a few. We > had people trying to bring full size kegs into the building! > If someone > understands the "Dead Head" philosophy, please let me know. I > prefer not to > judge, but rather take a "live and let live" approach to the > whole thing. I > don't think I want to participate in another concert event though! > > > > Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 14:35:28 -0500 > From: "William Chavez" > Subject: Re: Execution of anti-Travelogers?(njc) > > I guess you must have stated your dislike for the Greatful > Dead before I > came on the list because I don't remember reading that little > tid bit of > information. I'm not big on the Dead either and have never > figured out the > attraction. Jerry Garcia is kind of cool looking though(after > the grey came > in, his early photos with the black hair are pretty scary.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 12:19:52 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #5 - Public displays of T'log affections I've had three experiences in the last couple of months with people asking me if Joni Mitchell was dead. From the arse cashier at Borders..then my brother-in-law..and a niece. The inquiry from my brother-in-rile..was *probably* legitimate. The other two.. was to get my reaction..knowing damn well she is very much alive. Yes..this upsets..really upsets me..but I try to not let it show. Bree >I> will say this - I'm tired of folks who know my fascination with JM >coming > > up to me and asking me (with expressions on their faces as though >somebody > > where holding a plate of shit under the nose...) "Did you HEAR the new >Joni > > CD?" - of course I've heard it, and once again will stand up as the > > underdog, take the critique personally (I can't help it), and defend >this > > piece. > >I haven't experienced this sort of thing -- but I was sitting in Starbucks >the other day when a friend passed by and excitedly mouthed something >indecipherable through the window....he came in announced that T'log is >totally marvelous and his favorite Joni album.... > >Bryan _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 14:42:56 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Senator John Edwards/U.S. Politics NJC kasey simpson wrote: > > My limited understanding of unemployment is that it is an insurance paid for > by companies. On my pay stubs there's always a deduction for NY SUI/SDI, which is my "contribution" to the unemployment/disability insurance fund. It's a very small amount compared to the other taxes deducted, but it's something I pay into every time I get a paycheck. Since unemployment compensation is a combination federal/state program, maybe other states don't deduct anything from employees' paychecks for it, and only the employers in those states fund the program. Or perhaps the employees' contribution in those states is included in their state tax deduction. > The total amount is based on how many employees, and the > risk of lay offs in the given industry. Once a minimum is met, the company > doesn't pay any more in unless they have a lay off, and benefits are used. I'll take your word for all that since I don't know the exact formula used. I have heard that a company's premiums go up if they lay a lot of people off. One consequence is that the more heartless companies come up with all sorts of excuses for firing people rather than laying them off. Then they can fight the compensation claim those former employees file. Nasty. > Actions speak louder than words. I agree completely with that, and think it's true in general, not only in politics. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 21:08:18 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Tr: prepare NJC >>Mike wrote: Question: What made these people in Lebanon decide to launch suicide attacks Laurent: >>Well no matter how long this lie is being repeated in the media worldwide, I cannot understand how a tiny country of 5 million jews that control 1% of the middle east area would even dream of winning a war against 200 million surrounding arabs? One would have to be crazy to even think of engaging in such an aggression.<< Mike says Unless one had very powerful friends and one of the best-equipped and trained fighting forces on the planet. And regarding lies in the worldwide media, tell me please who distorts the news from the middle east the most. We disagree on this but I sent a lot of information on this off-list and have yet to see a reply. Can you not accept that the Israeli propaganda machine is infinitely superior to anything that the Palestine side could manage? Laurent said: >> Simply put, Israel is trying to survive, not expand. Territorial encroachments are for security reasons (eg Kibboutz in northern Israel being shelled daily).<< Mike says I simply do not believe this. I sent you evidence to disprove this, evidence based on the memoirs of such 'lefties' as Ben-Gurion and Yitzhak Rabin. 'Territorial encroachments', a lovely euphemism, are for wholly different reasons. Laurent said: >> No, the rhetoric has changed over the decades, it has become more clever, but the same hate still prevails.<< Mike says The rhetoric on both sides has indeed become more clever but you see only one side of it, as I imagine you would say about me. In my heart I have no hate for anyone and I imagine that you were not referring to me personally. I am engaged in an investigation to try to see what really happened here and what's really happening now. I know this is difficult and I will try to see all sides but what I have read has informed me, to a small extent compared to you, Laurent, I am sure, but please do not attribute hate to my motives. I do not attribute hate to yours, and in fact I wish you a very happy xmas too. Talk to you in the new year, Regards, Mike. Dear Mike, I have been enjoying our exchanges on and off list. Rest assured that I have not detected an ounce of hate in you ever. I have no doubt your motives are sincere but I believe you have perhaps fallen a little on the opposite side from me. Regarding your off-list communication of Christopher Hitchens book, I have not forgotten and will prepare a substantiated reply as soon as possible. I'm sending you an article off list too. Now regarding these past exchanges, do you really believe that Israel willingly and knowingly wants war with 200 million arabs, even with the US support? Come on, that would be suicidal because: as long as Israel wins the wars they stay alive, and they often give back the land they won on the battlefield. The one time, God forbid, they would lose 1 war, this will mean another holocaust. Israelis remember that the U.S wasn't always backing them up, so they've learned not to rely on anybody else but themselves for survival. I'll give you a couple of examples of that last point: Just before WW2, the U.S. sent back to Germany boats filled with German jews, to a certain death. During WW2, despite the many appeals, Roosevelt refused to bomb concentration camps or railroads leading to them, because those were not "military targets". After WW2, the U.S initially didn't want to vote for the creation of the state of Israel. The simple fact is the muslim propaganda has turned jews into pure evil (see the article I'm sending you off-list). If you read this press anything we do is wrong, isn't it? We jews have learned to take this press with a grain of salt. For the very reason that before we had a state and the ability to defend ourselves, the arguments of hate and of us being evil were the same, just presented slightly differently. About the only thing we can ever do which brings no protest or cristicism is letting ourselves being slaughtered. There's no question that generations of arab children are being indoctrinated at an early age to kill jews whatever the cost. Why so much hate? The question of the land is bullshit. This land became a desert after the jews were taken captive to Babylon and remained so for 2000 years. Nobody wanted this wasteland. The arabs who lived on it certainly had no official deed to it, no more and no less than the jews before them. So I personally interpret Bill Fowler's argument (JMDL on 12/25) differently. He simply meant that jews had historical and religious ties to this land which the arabs didn't. Those who chastised Bill for his use of the term "chosen people" are not aware of the meaning of these words. It simply means that God has chosen the jews to fulfill the 613 commandments of the Torah, for the benefit of the entire mankind. In other words jews have the responsibility to follow the law to ensure order in the world, whereas non-jews are not obligated. The key word here is responsability. There is no meaning whatsoever of a privilege of any kind. After all, if anybody thinks jews' ordeals over the ages is a privilege, we'll gladly trade it with another fate. So, to conclude, the question is not whose propaganda is stronger. The issue is that muslim propaganda is finding an echo among the muslim population worldwide. That echo is obviously stronger due to the sheer number of muslims compared to the number of jews. So this leads to more hate on a much wider scale. In my own country of France which is home to 5 million muslims and to 600.000 jews, the politicians have clearly made their choice of whose votes to cajole. Just 2 days ago, a liberal rabbi was stabbed with a knife in the synagogue where I send my children. A university in Paris voted last week to sever its ties with Israeli universities, despite the fact that those universities in Israel enroll students of all creeds and are at the forefront of the dialogue with Palestinians. No, it was easier to put all of israelis and their institutions in the same "evil" basket. There are hundreds of incidents in France, largely unreported. You may say that jewish extremists do similar things, true, but on an infinitely smaller scale. Of course it's not right. All I'm saying is the arab side is encouraging massive slaughter, and history has proven that it's very easy to convince people, even the most culturally advanced nations (as was Germany) to perform inhuman acts. When you think of it, what JUSTIFICATION did it take to convince a black african of one ethnic group in Rwanda to chop the head off another black african, times a few millions! So if men can do it to men of their own race and color and religion, think of what others can do when the other side is portrayed as pure evil and is of another religion. Happy and healthy 2003 to all of you. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 20:57:07 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Tr: prepare NJC >Those who chastised Bill for his use of the term "chosen people" are not aware >of the meaning of these words. It simply means that God has chosen the jews >to fulfill the 613 commandments of the Torah, for the benefit of the entire >mankind. > >In other words jews have the responsibility to follow the law to ensure order >in the world, whereas non-jews are not obligated. > > > and this is where the argument falls flat on it's face. The above is nothing more than an idea, it is not the Truth. If people cannot tell the difference bewteen their ideas and 'Ttruth' there is little hope. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 16:52:47 EST From: Gertus@aol.com Subject: Re:Stryngs - more sample tracks (NJC) In a message dated 06/01/2003 08:00:57 GMT Standard Time, les@jmdl.com writes: From Chris:- > If you liked what you heard, and care for > another visit chez http://www.stryngs.com > I've put three more track fragments up:- > > Bobblehats And Beer > Frank's Song > Trick Of The Light > > Feedback welcome :) > Yeah, they're wonderful too. Don't give us any more though please, cos we all need some treats to look forward to! Are you putting sleeve notes on the cover? I hope you do because I so well remember Strings' explanation of Frank's Song when you played it in the summer - everyone in the room was so moved by it. I love sleeve notes. I've just been reading some on the Jackson C Frank album I was given for Christmas and they really add a lot to the enjoyment of the album. It's a shame you don't often get them these days. Whadya think? Jacky ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 16:28:53 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: prepare NJC Hi everyone, Got back yesterday from a great holiday driving through British Columbia. The weather was lovely, but today it's back to 12 inches of snow and freezing temperatures. Holiday well and truly over. Laurent, thanks for sending the article by Nonie Darwish. She made some interesting observations on the nature of Arab society and Islam. The anti-Semitism I've encountered in Arab countries is amazing. You can't believe your ears when you first hear it. Professional people truly believe that Jews kill non-Jewish children to drain their blood for baking special bread needed for religious festivals. The President of Syria has written about it as though it's an established fact. That's just one example. There are thousands of others - rumours, myths, libels - the most absurd racism imaginable. It's no wonder the Jewish people expect a Holocaust at the hands of their Arab neighbours. If any ethnic group in the UK or USA was spreading rumours like these against any other ethnic group, they'd be condemned out of hand, no matter the cause of their original grievances. Try to imagine how a group of whites would be treated if they started spreading around (and publishing!) that black people bake bread with the blood of white children. They'd be prosecuted and ostracized. We wouldn't stop to ask what injustices, real or imagined, they might have suffered at the hands of black people. We wouldn't want to know. We'd take the view that this kind of extreme ignorance, stupidity and hatred cannot be justified, end of story. But when Arabs and Muslims make these claims against Jewish people, we rush to excuse them. I see this as an example, not only of anti-Semitism in the West, but also of racism against Arabs and Muslims - along the lines of "they're too primitive to know any better", which is basically what the Left in Britain and America thinks when dismissing the possibility of democracy in Arab countries - - calling the idea "naive" as someone on this list said. We should try to approach the problems in the Middle East by applying the same moral standards to everyone. For anyone interested, I'm pasting below an August 2002 article from the London Observer by Nick Cohen, on the hypocrisy of the Left in their opposition to war against Saddam. For those of you who don't know Nick Cohen, his own leftwing credentials are impeccable. There's also an excellent piece in the latest issue of Vanity Fair on how the CIA opposes the spread of democracy in Iraq and the Middle East generally (as does the British intelligence community). The article also claims that it's the CIA that is suppressing information on the pre-September 11 links between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden - because the intelligence is coming from the Iraqi National Congress (INC) in London, which the CIA doesn't like because the INC is a pro-democracy group. Sarah Who will save Iraq? Not the bishops nor the Left, who seem to have forgotten the real victims of Saddam's regime Nick Cohen Sunday August 11, 2002 The Observer The bad faith of the anti-war movement is revealed in what it doesn't say. For all its apparent self-confidence, the Left, reinforced by a small army of bishops, mullahs and retired generals, lacks the nerve to state that the consequence of peace is the ruin of the hopes of Iraqi democrats. The evasion is on a Himalayan scale. Unsurprisingly, the religious, with centuries of training in casuistry, are the most adept dodgers of the uncomfortable question: how can the peoples of Iraq overthrow their tyrant without foreign help? Many pious men and women signed the declaration of Pax Christi, the 'International Catholic Movement for Peace', which was presented to Downing Street last week. If the Prime Minister read it, he would have noted that in only one sentence did they accept that Iraq was a prison state. 'The people of Iraq,' Pax Christi said, 'must not be made to suffer further because they are living under a dictator who in his early years in power enjoyed the collusion and support of Western nations.' Pax Christi deserves credit for its scanty acknowledgement - Richard Harries, the Bishop of Oxford, managed to oppose war for 1,000 words on these pages last Sunday without once alluding to the nature of the Iraqi regime. But I would have thought that the dopiest theologian might have grasped that the people of Iraq are suffering, and will suffer further, precisely because they live under a dictator. The faithful can't say as much because the issue would then become whether the civilian casualties of a war would justify the removal of the oppressor. As important would be the nature of the new government after the likely victory. The Foreign Office, US State Department and CIA appear to favour the replacement of one goon with another. In that instance, war would probably not be worth fighting. But the moral calculus would change if the West met the demands of the Iraqi National Congress, a loose coalition of Kurdish, Sunni and Shia opposition groups, and for once supported democracy and secularism in the Middle East. The battle by the INC and others to win American backing for a democratic Iraq is being fought in Washington and London as I write. On Friday Colin Pow ell told opposition leaders 'our shared goal is that the Iraqi people should be free'. Whether his warm words were anything other than propaganda remains to be seen. His State Department had refused to talk to the INC for a year. Meanwhile George Tenet, the director of the CIA who, astonishingly, was not fired for his failure to protect his country on 11 September, has been an unyielding opponent of Iraqi democracy since he advised Bill Clinton in the mid-1990s. I'm not saying Iraqi opposition is perfect. Generals who want a pro-American dictatorship form a part of it, while the two Kurdish factions in the INC were engaged in a civil war as late as 1996. Nevertheless, the heroism of many dissidents can't be doubted by those who are prepared to do what the Bishop of Oxford won't do and look at Saddam's regime with clear eyes. Among Amnesty International's voluminous accounts of executions and amputations in Iraq are descriptions of the collective punishment of their families. The fate of al-Shaikh Nazzar Kadhim al-Bahadli was 'typical', we are told. His wife, father and mother were tortured in front of him until he confessed to organising protests against Saddam. The latest grim dispatches from Iraq brought news of the execution of Abd al-Wahad al-Rifa'i, a retired teacher, who was suspected of having links to the opposition through his exiled brother. The opponents of Saddam therefore include many brave men and women who are paying dearly to uphold the values of at least a part of the liberal-Left. They champion human rights and the protection of the Kurdish minority. Yet when they ask their natural allies to pressure Blair into supporting a democratic Iraq they are met with indifference or the preposterous slander that they are the stooges of the CIA. A part of the explanation for the bad mouthing of freedom fighters lies in the belief that Muslims cannot handle and do not want freedom. On Friday yet another bishop - Colin Bennetts, the Bishop of Coventry, this time - wrote in the Guardian that he opposed war because 'Muslim communities here in the UK would perceive a UK attack on Iraq as evidence of an in-built hostility to the Islamic world'. I bow before the Right Reverend's superior knowledge of the views of the superstitious, but can't for the life of me understand why he believes the rejection of appeals from Muslims for help in removing a secular dictator is anti-Islamic. The greater reason for hostility is the ground shared by Left and Right. Noam Chomsky and his supporters have become the mirror image of the hypocrisies of American power. If the US encourages the persecution of Palestinians, but belatedly fights against Serbian ethnic cleansing, they will support freedom in the West Bank but not in the Balkans. In Britain the supposed extremes have gone a stage further and merged. It was as predictable as Christmas that the voices of Douglas Hurd and Sir Michael Rose would be among the loudest crying to leave Saddam alone. As Tadeusz Mazowiecki, the former Polish Prime Minister, said of the struggle to persuade Europe to stop Milosevic: 'Any time there was a likelihood of effective action, Hurd intervened to prevent it.' Rose, while refusing to contemplate decisive intervention by his troops in Bosnia, decided that denunciations of the rape and murder of Muslims were the work of 'the powerful Jewish lobby', and chummily regarded General Ratko Mladic, the butcher of Srebrenica, as a fellow officer 'who generally kept his word'. Both have warned that an invasion of Iraq will destabilise neighbouring states. By this they must mean the theocracy of Saudi Arabia. You might have thought the prediction that war would set on fire a repellent Saudi monarchy whose religious police terrorise the population - and which sponsored the most brutal version of Islamic fundamentalism until one minute to midnight on 10 September - would have been met with the cry 'let it burn'. But the Left appears as anxious to keep the lid on popular fury in the region as the Right. In their Commons motion, which is rallying Labour opposition, Tam Dalyell and Alice Mahon write, 'an aggressive war by Britain and the US would destabilise Iraq, risk provoking further conflict in the region and, inevitably, alienate the Arab states'. There are honourable grounds for upholding the authority of the United Nations and opposing American global domination. What is dishonourable - indeed insufferable - is the pretence of everyone from Trots to archbishops that their animating concern is the sufferings of the peoples of Iraq. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 23:12:47 +0000 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: Stryngs - more sample tracks (NJC) On Monday, Jan 6, 2003, at 21:52 Europe/London, Gertus@aol.com wrote: > Are you putting sleeve notes on the > cover? I hope you do because I so well remember Strings' explanation of > Frank's Song when you played it in the summer - everyone in the room > was so > moved by it. I love sleeve notes. We're going to try to do something nice with the sleve: certainly we'll give you lyrics and nice pictures. As for what else, we'll see. We're punting for a 16 page booklet already, and that's pricey y'know. - --Chris Marshall chrisAThatstand.org (AIM: Chr15Marshall) "The hearth rug of joy has been yanked from beneath my feet, and as the cress seeds of self doubt germinate in the beer-sodden student carpet of my mind, I lay my face gently atop the threadbare pillow of despair." (Inspired by Douglas Adams book titles, and, well, other stuff) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 19:06:09 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Covers comp? - NJC In a message dated 1/6/03 8:08:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, SCJoniGuy writes: > Anyway, this month Rose is the grand prize winner as she felt like a Black > Crow flying in a blue sky, and she chose the Black Crow from S&L! Good job & > congrats to you Rosalita! > OOOOhhh Thank you Bob, must be my lucky day. Rosalita NP: Beth Orton, Stolen Car Better ask questions before you shoot Deceit and betrayal's bitter fruit It's hard to swallow, come time to pay. That taste on your tongue don't easily slip away Let Kingdom come. I'm gonna find my way Through this lonesome day ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 00:14:30 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: prepare NJC >If any ethnic group in the UK or USA was spreading rumours like these >against any other ethnic group, they'd be condemned out of hand, no >matter the cause of their original grievances. Try to imagine how a >group of whites would be treated if they started spreading around >(and publishing!) that black people bake bread with the blood of >white children. They'd be prosecuted and ostracized. We wouldn't >stop to ask what injustices, real or imagined, they might have >suffered at the hands of black people. We wouldn't want to know. >We'd take the view that this kind of extreme ignorance, stupidity and >hatred cannot be justified, end of story. > >But when Arabs and Muslims make these claims against Jewish people, >we rush to excuse them. I see this as an example, not only of >anti-Semitism in the West, > it would seem people see what you wnat to see. Just because people are against war, and against pain and suffering caused thru people ignorantly pushing their ideas as truth, does not make people anti semetic.(never mind that Arabs are semites too). People in both the States and the UK do make such ignorant comments about other ethnic groups and against homosexuals. Jews, Arabs Chritsians etc slander homsexual people all the time and it is allowed to be so. I am sick and tired of reading racist crap from both sides of this argument. the propanganda for ALL SIDES is sick and disgusting. None of you want peace. you just want to be right, you want to force your idea of the truth onto everyone else and fuck the rest of us who are going to preish because of it. And don't give me anymore crap about Arab children being taught hate. Jewish children are taught hate. Catholic children are taught hate.Protestent children are taught hate. Xtian fundy children are taught. ALL CHILDREN ARE TAUGHT HATE, be it of race, releigion or sexuality or gender or disability or whatever you damn well want to hate. And they are taught hate by people who blame everyone else but themsleves. They paint themselves as victims, as martyrs, as pious and faithful when they are as full of shit as their 'enemy'. No matter how often you poor on the pity and shame, no matter how much you lie and manipulate, you will not succeed in bamboozling me. Ideas are NOT and NEVER will be truth. Oh and if you wonder why the 'lie and manipulate' well you shoot yourselves in the feet by labelling everyone who has a different view as racist or anti semite. that will not work either. I have no truck whatsoever with BIGOTS of either persuasion. i find the whole situation sickening and it makes me very very very angry that daily children are being murdered to suit your need to be right and all you you can do is is scream I AM RIGHT I AM RIGHT IAM RIGHT. apart from the children, the lives of the rest of us are being eroded, where we live now with the constant threat of annihilation just so certain people can have their pride left intact. Our ideas, our thoughts, our beliefs are what make our world and we ARE responsible for them. We DO have blood on our hands oif our beliefs and ideas supoort the craziness going on. It seems to me that no one is interested in peace, just in being right. RIGHT AND DEAD along with the rest of us. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 20:17:00 -0500 From: "PAUL PETERSON" Subject: The Two Johns: Rockwell and Kelly I guess what I meant was that in spite of Rockwell's enthusiasm for Hejira, his praise has always been measured with a condescending tone , as if he is slightly ashamed of liking Mitchell's music, and so needs to either put her down personally or quote the attiudes of others who do. For example look at these quotes: Miss Mitchell's basic vocal color is schoolgirlish and dull. But she has worked on her phrasing and on certain tricks of vocal coloration The new Mitchell album's very title will annoy those who think of her already as a shallow and self-indulgent mannerist - it's called "The Hissing of Summer Lawns," and includes a narcissistic photo of the singer on the inside, floating embryonically in a swimming pool, surrounded by saccharine prose. And along with the same brittle, rhythmically displaced music is the same humorless self-absorption that has always marked Miss Mitchell's work, the same periodic blunt sermonizing (a song called "Harry's House" especially) and the same vocal mannerisms - she really ought to cast whole-note slides up to principal notes out of her arsenal of tricks forever. It's easy to get testy about Joni Mitchell. Originally yet another strumming folkie from the Village, she moved out to Southern California and steadily transformed herself into a mythological, icy glamour princess. Her album covers were testimonials to a grandiose narcissism, and her poetry and her music evolved inexorably into nervously self-absorbed introspection. But since then her delicate balance between art and artifice has tipped disturbingly toward mannerism and hollowness Another problem was her professional and personal liasions with a group of studio musicians whose jazzy backings enlivened "Court and Spark" but who seemed on repeated expoure to be simply facile. Now about John Kelly: Whether you want to split hairs about Rockwell's praise of John Kelly or not, the fact is, any comparison of John Kelly with the real Joni Mitchell that finds John Kelly even remotely approaching her artistry IS absurb. Have you ever actually heard this guy? His screeching, forced, often off key nightmare of a voice is an excrutiating ordeal. As a parody or a drag act, he may be entertaining, but to suggest that the voice I heard a couple of years ago on the Both Sides Now tour is not the best live Joni Mitchell, but that John Kelly is, may be a matter of taste to be sure, but not the taste of someone who should be reviewing Joni's latest CD. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 17:40:20 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: prepare NJC Bravo Brother Colin! I will follow you anywhere. What's so funny 'bout peace love and understanding? The other ways have not worked for thousands of years and yet ... Peace Susan - --- colin wrote: > >If any ethnic group in the UK or USA was spreading rumours like these > >against any other ethnic group, they'd be condemned out of hand, no > >matter the cause of their original grievances. Try to imagine how a > >group of whites would be treated if they started spreading around > >(and publishing!) that black people bake bread with the blood of > >white children. They'd be prosecuted and ostracized. We wouldn't > >stop to ask what injustices, real or imagined, they might have > >suffered at the hands of black people. We wouldn't want to know. > >We'd take the view that this kind of extreme ignorance, stupidity and > >hatred cannot be justified, end of story. > > > >But when Arabs and Muslims make these claims against Jewish people, > >we rush to excuse them. I see this as an example, not only of > >anti-Semitism in the West, > > > it would seem people see what you wnat to see. Just because people are > against war, and against pain and suffering caused thru people > ignorantly pushing their ideas as truth, does not make people anti > semetic.(never mind that Arabs are semites too). > > People in both the States and the UK do make such ignorant comments > about other ethnic groups and against homosexuals. Jews, Arabs > Chritsians etc slander homsexual people all the time and it is allowed > to be so. > > I am sick and tired of reading racist crap from both sides of this > argument. the propanganda for ALL SIDES is sick and disgusting. None of > you want peace. you just want to be right, you want to force your idea > of the truth onto everyone else and fuck the rest of us who are going to > preish because of it. And don't give me anymore crap about Arab children > being taught hate. Jewish children are taught hate. Catholic children > are taught hate.Protestent children are taught hate. Xtian fundy > children are taught. ALL CHILDREN ARE TAUGHT HATE, be it of race, > releigion or sexuality or gender or disability or whatever you damn well > want to hate. And they are taught hate by people who blame everyone else > but themsleves. They paint themselves as victims, as martyrs, as pious > and faithful when they are as full of shit as their 'enemy'. > > No matter how often you poor on the pity and shame, no matter how much > you lie and manipulate, you will not succeed in bamboozling me. Ideas > are NOT and NEVER will be truth. > > Oh and if you wonder why the 'lie and manipulate' well you shoot > yourselves in the feet by labelling everyone who has a different view > as racist or anti semite. that will not work either. > I have no truck whatsoever with BIGOTS of either persuasion. i find the > whole situation sickening and it makes me very very very angry that > daily children are being murdered to suit your need to be right and all > you you can do is is scream I AM RIGHT I AM RIGHT IAM RIGHT. apart from > the children, the lives of the rest of us are being eroded, where we > live now with the constant threat of annihilation just so certain people > can have their pride left intact. > > Our ideas, our thoughts, our beliefs are what make our world and we ARE > responsible for them. We DO have blood on our hands oif our beliefs and > ideas supoort the craziness going on. It seems to me that no one is > interested in peace, just in being right. RIGHT AND DEAD along with the > rest of us. Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #7 *************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)