From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #593 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, December 29 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 593 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #591 -- Pirates NJC [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #591 -- Jaco's death [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #591 [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #591 - Time mag ad [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #592 [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #592 -- npr t'log review [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: jaco NJC [colin ] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #592 [Kardinel@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #592 [Kardinel@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #592 NJC [Catherine McKay ] How do you cope and let go? njc [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: Kennedy Center Awards: Paul Simon and JT - SJC (trace elements) [Chih] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #592 Paul Simon at Kennedy Center Awards [Aerchak@] Re: Kennedy Center Awards: Paul Simon and JT - SJC (trace elements) [Cat] Re: How do you cope and let go? njc [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Chogyam Trunpa Rinpache SJC [Aerchak@aol.com] Re: jaco NJC [Mags N Brei ] Re: jaco NJC [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: How do you cope and let go? njc [colin ] Re: jaco NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: native peoples in the US NJC ["Cynthia Vickery" ] Re: Disappointment NJC [Susan Guzzi ] RE: Disappointment NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: How do you cope and let go? njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] birthday wishes ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: How do you cope and let go? njc [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: Disappointment NJC [Michael Paz ] Re: birthday wishes [colin ] Re: Disappointment NJC [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: Disappointment NJC [FMYFL@aol.com] Album of the year? njc [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Disappointment NJC [Susan Guzzi ] Re: Album of the year? Now Phoebe njc [Susan Guzzi ] Re: How do you cope and let go? njc ["kakki" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 03:02:07 EST From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #591 -- Pirates NJC Wow. I haven't heard Rickie Lee Jones' Pirates in so many years. What a rush. It hit me in the belly. Isn't this one of the best albums ever? It is indeed a stunning work, probably on par with anything Joni has done (how hard it is to get me to say that). It must be one of the saddest, bluest collections of songs ever put together...listen to "Skeletons" and try to keep from crying. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 03:08:11 EST From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #591 -- Jaco's death I> Yes. He slumped into cocaine addiction, became a street person > in Florida, and sadly, died. I didn't NJC this because...well, because Jaco's work is so essential to some of Joni's best work. Anyway, I don't really know, but I have read that the "street person" aspect of his final days is a myth. Apparently, Jaco was beaten by a bouncer at a club and died from the injuries. There is disagreement on whether he provoked the conflict or not. Isn't there a biography on Jaco, his life and death? Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 03:16:30 EST From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #591 I> did I just hear and watch a tv commercial sponsored by Circuit City > and the Department of Defense? using Joni's "River"? to solicit > messages to "our boys" who can't be home for christmas...? they > direct you to: http://www.messagefromamerica.com . . . > why oh why would anyone sell the rights to this song to the US military? We've discussed this before....but anyway, I believe that as a composer, Joni would have no chance to allow (or not) the use of a song in a commercial. The decision of whether to allow the recording to be used would belong to whomever holds the copyright to that particular recording, which in this case would probably be the record company that released it. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 03:23:53 EST From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #591 - Time mag ad PS - I saw a 1/3 page ad for T in this week's Time Magazine. Price was right, no doubt :~) You're kidding. Which Time rag* is that, what's on the cover? The ad must have been booked before Nonesuch stopped promoting T'log. *remember Joan Baez' song "Time Rag," from the album Blowin' Away? I said Time Time mag, mag You've got me On the rag, rag Take your insults About the Queen And shove them up Your royal Timese machine I never did know whom Joan was referring to as "the Queen." Herself? Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 03:36:25 EST From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #592 Not sure about this, but I think Janet Jackson owns the rights to Joni's songs. Huh? I don't think so (unless I missed that news somehow). I don't think Joni would sell her catalog to anybody. Maybe you're thinking of Janet's sampling of Big Yellow Taxi in one of her songs. Or Michael Jackson's buying of the Beatles song catalog...or was it Elvis'? Or both? Anyway, again, I don't think so... Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 03:48:22 EST From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #592 -- npr t'log review here's the link http://discover.npr.org/features/feature.jhtml?wfId=891774 bryan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 10:17:49 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: jaco NJC >Colin, I'm happy for you that you are able to take >care of yourself without medication. Many people can - >Patti Duke is one of them. If you haven't read her >autobiography, I'd recommend it. She had a very weird >childhood. > >However, medication does work very well for some >people and I'm sure you're not implying that no one >needs medication. > nope. it is not my business what other people do. I would recommened tho that people find out as much as they can about their illness and the treatments. Not all symptoms are the same either-I was never into thinking i was soemone esle or paranoid. I was violent on two occasions-on both osccasions i was pumped full of Chlorpromazine(Largactil). It is a truly vile drug with terrible side effects. I had cirrhosis from it. I was not told it was the drug that caused it till i found that out for myself. I knew I didn't drink much at that time so I found out what i could about the drugs I was on. It was then I lost trust in the medical people. They lied to me. I was in hospital for weeks, sick, two biiopsies etc and they never said a word. I was ill for a long time. Maybe things are different here. All that ever happened to me was hospitaliization in horrid wards with sometimes violent patients an staff. no treatment other than drugs. If one refused drugs, one was held down and forced to take them. I could have ended up in there for life as it is a new shrink took over my ward after a year and she released me and urged me to do everything I could to avoid flling into that trap again. She eventually went to the USA as she couldn't stand the system here. Pyschiatric wards are not the cosy caring places people like to think they are. A few years after this experience I was contacted about one of the staff who was being investigated for cruelty. I was asked why i didn't say anyhting at the time. I did, i replied, but you lot didn't believe me and upped my meds instead. This sort of thing was not just confiend to me ward but to hospitals all over the uk. Oh, and another thing, here in the UK a person with a psychitric illness is considered an unreliable witness in court so people get away with a lot of things. I found this out after a 3 day interview regarding one of my ex teachers who was child pornographer. Even tho the poilice knew of my history, they still put me thru it and then told me they could not use me as a witness. the moral of the story being that if you are going to fuck someone over, do it really well so they are damaged and then no one will believe them. So this man has got away with his crimes and may still be abusing children. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 08:42:24 EST From: Kardinel@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #592 Andrea, I can't agree more with you. During Vietnam all the poor and working class kids had to go. The others got student deferments or in the case of George Bush, Dad pulled some strings and got him in the National Guard. Did you know he was awol for 14 months from the guard? We can't treat these young kids like we did the Vietnam Vets. They are pawns in the game and so very, very young. I hate to see any of them die and it breaks my heart. Maureen ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 08:56:15 EST From: Kardinel@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #592 Colin, I agree with much you said. I work in a mental health center. I have seen so many people walk through the door who see themselves as only a label. They also believe or have been lead to believe that drugs are the only answer. Never mind they don't have friends or family, or a decent place to live, or a car etc. The loneliness and isolation I see is devastating. Also I have run into people I haven't seen for a couple of years and they are physically destroyed by the huge amounts of drugs they have been given. They have gained tons of weight, are totally flat etc etc. Some people think they are doing better because they are not bothering anyone-don't have the energy. I think it's very hard for a person with bipolar or other illness to know what to do. I recently asked a clinican,"What percentage of your practice is loneliness?" She said, "50-70percent. Not that some don't have something wrong, but if someone cared about them, most would be alright." Most of my job focuses on people's loneliness and isolation, and poverty. there is no pill for that-although I can imagine the drug companies trying to market a pill that way. Maureen ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 09:45:22 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #592 NJC --- Kardinel@aol.com wrote: > Colin, I agree with much you said. I work in a > mental health center. I have > seen so many people walk through the door who see > themselves as only a label. > They also believe or have been lead to believe that > drugs are the only > answer. Never mind they don't have friends or > family, or a decent place to > live, or a car etc. The loneliness and isolation I > see is devastating. ... > I think it's very hard for a person with bipolar or > other illness to know > what to do. I recently asked a clinican,"What > percentage of your practice is > loneliness?" She said, "50-70percent. Not that some > don't have something > wrong, but if someone cared about them, most would > be alright." Most of my > job focuses on people's loneliness and isolation, > and poverty. there is no > pill for that-although I can imagine the drug > companies trying to market a > pill that way. I agree with this as well. If you had a good look at the people filling the wards of the publicly funded psychiatric hospitals, I'm sure you'd find the majority are from low-income backgrounds and people with no families. It's a lot easier to pump these people full of drugs and warehouse them than to take the time to help them find meaning in their lives. Then, of course, once they're full of drugs and as long as they're not violent, out they go again because otherwise it costs the taxpayers too much money to provide for them. So they end up living in the streets, going off their meds, and back into the psych hospital again in a vicious cycle. There seemed to be a trend in the 50s and 60s, (certainly in the US, based on the books and movies made about this), of putting upper- and middle-class kids who were acting out into fancy psychiatric hospitals. Maybe this was a form of daycare for teenaged children of wealthy people who didn't know how, or didn't want, to deal with adolescent angst in any other way. Send 'em for therapy, give 'em drugs and wait a few years until they see the light; in other words, send them away until they've gone through puberty - boarding school, psych hospital, whatever, just get them out of the way until they grow up (?) NP - My dog panting like a fiend - probably needs to go out. P.S. Maureen, try to remember the njc in the subject line or someone who is a joni-only will come after you. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 09:52:03 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: How do you cope and let go? njc I f anyone out there has gone through a separation and or divorce, then you know what I'm going through. Yes, I'm the hurt spouse. I could use just a little help right now and any advice would be greatly appreciated. How did I deal with all these intense emotional feelings, such as: despair, resentment, self defeating anger, rage, depression, hatred, hopelessness, intense emotional distress, loneliness, low self esteem? Is there a medication I could take that would help with some of the stress and anxiety? rosie in nj ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 09:59:19 EST From: Chihuahua50@aol.com Subject: Re: Kennedy Center Awards: Paul Simon and JT - SJC (trace elements) In a message dated 12/29/02 3:00:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, les@jmdl.com writes: > > Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 11:05:55 EST > From: Bobsart48@aol.com > Subject: Re: Kennedy Center Awards: Paul Simon and JT - SJC (trace elements) > > Saw the Kennedy Center Award ceremony on the boob tube last night. Paul > Simon > was one of those honored. A few observations: > > 1. Paul's "hair" looked like Michael Jackson's face. How could he have > left the house like that ? On one hand, I agree. His hair looked terrible and I think he would look a lot better if he just shaved the top of his head. On the other hand, I really respect people like Paul Simon, James Taylor, and Edie Brickell (Paul's wife, who was sitting behind him), for swimming against the current tide in our culture of artificial celebrities. It didn't look like anyone had "done" Edie's hair or make-up. She didn't look like she even had any make-up on, and she's beautiful. I feel the same way about James Taylor. He's a bald man who walks out on stage and does his job and I think he looks pretty damn good doing it. The music and his integrity speaks for himself. I'm not so sure if I can say the same thing about Joni. "Even on the scuffle, the cleaner's crease was in [her] jeans...." That's okay. A crease is one thing. But I have very little respect for the completely artificial stars like Brittney Spears, etc. I'm always amazed that pop stars will actually list on their CDs the person responsible for their make-up, hair, clothing, shoes, etc. It makes you wonder if the person can go the bathroom without having an official butt-wiper. I like what Grace Slick said in the recent women in rock Rolling Stone issue. She said something along the lines of, 'in the old days we used to just grab whatever was available, put it on, and walk out on stage.' Because ----- it was all about the music ----- and not the image, the video, the marketing, the demographics, the packaging. So, yeah, on one hand Paul Simon looked like he just got out of bed. But on the other hand, it takes a lot of courage to walk out there and say, hey, this is who I am and what I look like, and I kind of had the idea that you were all honoring who I am, and not what I look like. I also have a lot of respect for Paul finally tossing the rug that he's worn for so many years. I think that must have taken a lot of courage for a child of the 50s and 60s like Paul who grew up in the age of Elvis, the Beatles, and Hair. Now it's time for them to honor Joni. Frank ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 10:05:35 EST From: Aerchak@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #592 Paul Simon at Kennedy Center Awards I missed the show but was Paul Simon actually not wearing his baseball cap. I'm surprised he has any hair. I figured that's why he always wears a stupid baseball cap. He probably took it off right before he went on stage so he had hat head ot hat hair. I'm so sorry I missed that. I saw Paul Simon once in the city at FAO Schwartz in 1977 or 1978 and he smiled right at me. He had hair then. Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 10:52:17 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Kennedy Center Awards: Paul Simon and JT - SJC (trace elements) --- Chihuahua50@aol.com wrote: > On the other hand, I > really respect people like Paul Simon, James Taylor, > and Edie Brickell > (Paul's wife, who was sitting behind him), for > swimming against the current > tide in our culture of artificial celebrities. It > didn't look like anyone > had "done" Edie's hair or make-up. She didn't look > like she even had any > make-up on, and she's beautiful. I feel the same way > about James Taylor. He's > a bald man who walks out on stage and does his job > and I think he looks > pretty damn good doing it. The music and his > integrity speaks for himself. > I'm not so sure if I can say the same thing about > Joni. "Even on the scuffle, > the cleaner's crease was in [her] jeans...." That's > okay. A crease is one > thing. But I have very little respect for the > completely artificial stars > like Brittney Spears, etc. I'm always amazed that > pop stars will actually > list on their CDs the person responsible for their > make-up, hair, clothing, > shoes, etc. It makes you wonder if the person can > go the bathroom without > having an official butt-wiper. You forgot the part about them thanking God for their talent and so on. God gets a credit on a lot of pop music CD covers these days - I wonder if he gets royalties? I get a bit tired of people with perfect hair and perfect teeth. Brittney Spears is really pretty, that's for sure, and I'm sure she credits her orthodontist somewhere - the teeth are a bit too white and straight, aren't they? Maybe we could all be that pretty if we had the bucks. I'm always amazed at the fact that people "wear" these expensive designer fashions that leave nothing to the imagination. It seems like the less material is involved, the more expensive the clothing - like the see-through dresses with the halter-style tops slashed down to the navel (let's face it, there are very few people, IMO, that look good in a halter top; if they want people to see their tits, why bother wearing anything on top at all?) And let's not forget the bum-floss bottoms. Then again, there's the strategically ripped T-shirts and cut-off jeans - like these people can't afford to buy new clothes? they've got to wear the ripped stuff? I didn't see the show. I'm remembering Paul Simon's fuzzy head of hair from his last CD, so I think I can imagine. Maybe he should just shave his head after all. Here we go with the bald-headed thing again. Some baldies are so cute. JT does look cute and he always dresses very nicely, but doesn't overdo it. He always manages to look like a real gent. Joni likes to dress well - she always did. Some of the outfits she wears these days are pretty laughable, IMO, but at least she's not hanging out all over and she carries it off well. Few of us could wear those Issey Miyake kite-dresses or puffy things and get away with it. The stuff Joni's wearing these days (in concert, anyway) do suit the glam-style orchestrated stuff, but would look weird if/when Joni decides to go it alone with a small band. In the PWWAM video, her clothing is simpler but still quietly glamourous. She always looks well put-together (even the "terrible" DED perm suited the times - everyone needs to experiment with bad hair at least once in their life!) ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 11:34:44 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: How do you cope and let go? njc In a message dated 12/29/2002 9:52:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, RoseMJoy@aol.com writes: > Is there a > medication I could take that would help with some of the stress and > anxiety? > I for one hate to see medication as a first resort...Joni says "Doctor's pills give you brand new ills..." and I agree with her. My two bits of advice would be to begin a steady exercise program, even if it's just consistent brisk walking, and find some kind of support group where you can talk about your feelings and know that there are others that are dealing with the same stuff. And of course, know that you have a pretty good support group here Rose, but sometimes you need a friend to give you a hug & a shoulder to cry on, and a computer cannot do that. Love ya, Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 11:45:41 EST From: Aerchak@aol.com Subject: Chogyam Trunpa Rinpache SJC Ron, Thank you for answering my question about the painting of this man in the T'logue liners. That's absolutely who it is. I had started to think it was Hu Jintao, China's new guy ( I was reading Newsweek). I read that article you directed us to and Joni said he was green on his death bed. Made me wonder if he died of cirrhosis since he was such a drinker. My mother had cirrhosis of the liver and she was chartreuse. Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 08:59:14 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: jaco NJC thanks to Colin, Andrea and Catherine for coming forward with this discussion. To do drugs or not to do drugs, that is a big question. The whole thing about "mental illness" comes down to, as Catherine mentioned, the stigma, the godawful stigma of needing support/help..I wonder where that all stems from? If you had a broken leg, no one would flinch..but say you are having emotional struggles and they look the other way. And if there is a chemical imbalance, what are you supposed to do about that on your own? And if you are impeded by overwhelming feelings or lack of money, the reality is, sometimes you feel so stuck in the mire of your situation and cannot for the life of you see a way out. From the people that I know who are on meds, some people do benefit from them and I know people who feel that they can now live a full life with that help. It's a tough call. Yes there are side effects sometimes when taking them, and then there are the effects of not taking them, as Catherine mentioned. And yea, Catherine, some people think that just because someone isnt doing it all on their own, then that means weakness...or as you said, they are not trying hard enough or are giving up. Sometimes the fight is just too goddamned hard to do alone so thats why people end up going for help via meds and counselling. I agree with Bob, that exercise does help as does meditation and just taking good care of yourself through good nutrition and sleeping and all kinds of good ways to take care of yourself. It all helps. But what if you are just too tired to try. What if . And Rose, as Bob said,a support group helps because you can then touch base in person when you need to. And I acknowledge that it is very difficult to pull it together and find the appropriate support or to even gather the energy to go on that walk because you are feeling so overwhelmed as Rose is now. It's a long and winding road they say, and there is help out there, it's just so hard to find it. And then there's the issue of cutbacks in funding for programmes and such..and on and on it goes. I appreciate this discussion and I think it's so important to reach out, even if all you can do in the moment is to tell all of us Rose. So thanks for that, because now we are more aware and can at least offer an ear and an idea or two. Networking is a good way to go. People go through rough times alone far too often, which is sad too.And if you cant reach out to your jmdl community, then that's really sad. Mags, rambling on a sunny sunday. Catherine McKay wrote:--- colin wrote: > > The really sad part is that Jaco Pastorius was > >bipolar (manic depressive). It is not uncommon for > untreated manics to spiral > >into addiction as self medication. > > > I think the main reason being that the 'treatment' > is often worse than > the complaint. Certainly all the drugs that I know > of have unacceptable > side effects, sudden and early death being two of > them. Apart from that, > the drugs don't actually do a lot except make other > people feel better > and like they are doing something. They make the > taker feel dreadful and > often far worse than when they were unmedicated. Colin, I'm happy for you that you are able to take care of yourself without medication. Many people can - Patti Duke is one of them. If you haven't read her autobiography, I'd recommend it. She had a very weird childhood. However, medication does work very well for some people and I'm sure you're not implying that no one needs medication. Not all doctors and shrinks are out to get everyone on drugs - some of them actually do seem to know what they're doing and do care about their patients' welfare. My brother-in-law is bipolar and, without his medication, becomes paranoid and delusional and unable to function. (He usually thinks he's in the CIA, which being Canadian, is pretty unlikely in any case!; except that being in the CIA or being a spy, or else being watched by the CIA or some other spy group is pretty common with delusional people for some reason.)Fortunately he does not become violent (not usually, although being violent - getting into a bad fight with someone when he was in his late teens or early twenties - was what led to his being diagnosed, and having a psych evaluation was what kept him out of jail.) As long as he takes his medication (it was lithium, but now he's on something else, I'm not sure what), he can be successful at his work and be there for my sister and their kids. He is a wonderful and caring person. When he's not on medication, he makes not just his life, but their lives, and the lives of his parents, complete hell. These medications work very well for some people. It is true that there are side effects and that they can cause damage and possibly premature death (it's either the kidneys or the liver that has to be monitored); however, the alternative for many people is an even earlier death - by their own hand. People who recognize their illness and take responsibility for it themselves (that is, not leaving it up to others to make them get help), by taking care of their bodies, eating properly, getting enough sleep and so on, are in a better position to deal with it without medication. Unfortunately many people go into denial about it and there's still a huge stigma attached to it - after all, mental illness is a "weakness" and not a *real* illness in the minds of many people, so, maybe if you ignore it, it will just go away. Or maybe you're just not trying hard enough. Still others use alcohol as a form of self-medication, although they may not be aware that's what they're doing. If people looked at these things the same way as they do something like diabetes, the whole thing makes much more sense. It's a chemical imbalance, so you need to get your body back into balance. Some diabetes (the late-onset/lifestyle-induced kind) can be controlled strictly through healthy lifestyles and diet. Other people need to take insulin. Once again, I'm happy for you that you can do it without medication. That's always the preferred choice, IMO; unfortunately it's not the answer for everyone. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 12:03:41 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: jaco NJC In a message dated 12/29/02 11:59:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, magsnbrei@yahoo.com writes: > I appreciate this discussion and I think it's so important to reach out, > even if all you can do in the moment is to tell all of us Rose. So thanks > for that, because now we are more aware and can at least offer an ear and > an idea or two. Networking is a good way to go. People go through rough > times alone far too often, which is sad too.And if you cant reach out to > your jmdl community, then that's really sad. > Thanks sweetie. NP: Tunnel of love ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 17:19:37 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: How do you cope and let go? njc RoseMJoy@aol.com wrote: >I f anyone out there has gone through a separation and or divorce, then you >know what I'm going through. Yes, I'm the hurt spouse. I could use just a >little help right now and any advice would be greatly appreciated. >How did I deal with all these intense emotional feelings, such as: despair, >resentment, self defeating anger, rage, depression, hatred, hopelessness, >intense emotional distress, loneliness, low self esteem? Is there a >medication I could take that would help with some of the stress and anxiety? > Useless right now, I am sure, but all this WILL pass. in the meantime, you need suport form your firends or a group or a helpline or something. Don't be afraid or ashamed to ask. sometimes I have sopoken anonymously on a hlep line like The Samaratans(I would think there is somehting similar in NJ). The suffering you are experiencing will ease - it takes time. Try to go with it and don;t fight it. You have very right to be feeling this way. love colin > >rosie in nj ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:31:26 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: jaco NJC --- Mags N Brei wrote: > To do drugs or not to > do drugs, that is a big question. The whole thing > about "mental illness" comes down to, as Catherine > mentioned, the stigma, the godawful stigma of > needing support/help..I wonder where that all stems > from? If you had a broken leg, no one would > flinch..but say you are having emotional struggles > and they look the other way. And if there is a > chemical imbalance, what are you supposed to do > about that on your own? That's a tough one. If you can see the broken leg, you know the person has been hurt. I'm sure the stigma of mental illness (I don't even like the term "mental illness" because it also carries a stigma) relates to its invisibility. You can't see what's wrong. Sometimes people behave badly or strangely but they're not mentally ill (that we know of.) So, if someone is behaving badly, maybe it's because they choose to. Which means, they can choose not to - pull up their socks, behave like an adult and so on. In the old days, people might have thought they were possessed by devils or whatever, so maybe it meant they were evil or deserved it. I'd be a bit reluctant to talk to people about my depression if I thought they'd try to do an exorcism or burn me at the stake! When my mother was ill with cancer, her doctor asked if she would like to talk to a psychiatrist - instead of seeing this as possibly a good thing (she could talk about her feelings), my mother was insulted - she thought her doctor was telling her she was nuts! I think for a lot of us, we can help ourselves by taking care of ourselves, eating a good, balanced diet, but not depriving of ourselves by some of the food we really love (like chocolate!); by exercising and getting fresh air; by having balance in our lives (recognizing that our job is not us, spending time with our friends and family). Today's society is so rushed that often taking a drug for something is a quicker fix than changing lifestyle. This will ultimately be to our detriment though, so it's best to take the time now. Which is not to say that there aren't people out there who genuinely benefit from taking the medication; but I think doctors are too quick to prescribe medication when there are alternatives. That's going to be my mantra for 2003, that's for sure. I've been taking Zoloft for depression for three or four years now, but I'm slowly cutting back on the dose in the hope of going off it altogether. I think I understand enough about myself to do what I need to do if I feel myself slipping too far down - also you can't cut that stuff right off without having horrible symptoms, including dizziness and nausea, so it has to be done slowly. If that doesn't work, I'll stay on the stuff, but I'm certainly eager to try it without. There are too many side-effects (not major ones, but annoying ones, like the fact that the capsules it comes in often make me throw up, so I have to break them open and mix the powder with juice - it tastes awful! - or the feeling of being somehow distanced from people and things). ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 12:55:55 -0600 From: "Cynthia Vickery" Subject: Re: native peoples in the US NJC Ron said: <> and me: geez.... i don't know enough about politics to fill a thimble, but here i go anyhow - when alison said: <> i suspect she meant (and i'm sure that she'll correct me if i'm wrong) that the native americans are forced by their financial situation (since they can't have said casino) to store nuclear waste on their reservation, and that the dangers that that presents (from leakage, from the targeting of that waste in war, etc etc) is a kind of passive genocide. i mean, no one's lining up begging to store nuclear waste on their property, are they? cindy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 21:22:47 +0000 From: colin Subject: Disappointment NJC I just opened my mail to find a mail headed; I am Hungry For You Colin Finally, someone on the list really has the hots for me! But no it was a woman with huge tits suggesting I go and visit her site sometime. oh well. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:28:28 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Disappointment NJC Colin, Did I not ask you to keep that e-mail confidential? Really!! ;-D Peace, Susan - --- colin wrote: > I just opened my mail to find a mail headed; > > I am Hungry For You Colin > > Finally, someone on the list really has the hots for me! > > But no it was a woman with huge tits suggesting I go and visit her site > sometime. > > oh well. Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 19:30:39 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Disappointment NJC that happens to me all the time!!!! how do they know one's name and address???? lately i've been bombarded by ''teenage girls have barn sex with horse''. why would they? there's always michael paz for example. wallyK - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de colin Enviado el: Domingo, 29 de Diciembre de 2002 06:23 p.m. Para: joni@smoe.org Asunto: Disappointment NJC I just opened my mail to find a mail headed; I am Hungry For You Colin Finally, someone on the list really has the hots for me! But no it was a woman with huge tits suggesting I go and visit her site sometime. oh well. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 19:58:16 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: How do you cope and let go? njc dearest rosie, first you let go, and then you cope. it takes TIME. the pain seems to go and then it comes back. it's a spiral. each time the pain is less sharp and the feeling of well being more encompassing. the key element is to first let go. there are no recipes, and it is the hardest thing part of all. there is no medication for this because it is not a disease. it is the normal reaction of a healthy person who is grieving. talk about it but don't let the topic become an obsession or a way to cover up the real pain. the pain has to burn itself down to ashes and for that you have to feel it when it comes and goes. be aware of all the little tricks that you'll play yourself in order to avoid the pain. do not sugar it, intellectualize it or distort it into guilt, daydreaming or escape routines. you have to live with this pain and all its horror until the natural process has come to an end. it's almost like a bad cold. only you learn very little about yourself from bad colds, while these events in our lives are the sources of the most profound self-examination and learning. when your life together with someone else comes to an end, your life also comes to an end. rebirth and newness can occur only when you have distilled out of your body, system, soul, heart, mind, you name it, every atom of your previous life. what must remain will stay of its own accord. death is total but death is not final. in short, do NOTHING. devote yourself to the practical aspects of life, the things that you can and must control. stay away from substances that might give you temporary oblivion but that will only delay the effects of the blow. absorb the impact and be patient. if this change has come to your life, it is because your life will be better. death and rebirth in one's own lifetime is a gift that not everybody is given. i know the pain, the sense of futility, the ego wound, the black and empty days ahead. all the symptoms. i've gone through it and i'm going through it as i write (had fate been different, i would have had my commitment ceremony with alberto two days ago, and here i am, always a bridesmaid...) and yet, i can tell you all these things because i believe them, because they have happened to me and because they are natural. welcome change, however deeply it may hurt. it means that you are slowly getting ready for something special. all my love, wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 23:12:56 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Disappointment NJC Susan Guzzi wrote: >Colin, > >Did I not ask you to keep that e-mail confidential? Really!! ;-D > but i kept my word. I didn't mention that 'guzzle susan's guzzi's' was written right across your HUGE mams. I am a gentlemen and would never reveal your sluttishness to anyone. never. > >Peace, >Susan > >--- colin wrote: > > >>I just opened my mail to find a mail headed; >> >>I am Hungry For You Colin >> >>Finally, someone on the list really has the hots for me! >> >>But no it was a woman with huge tits suggesting I go and visit her site >>sometime. >> >>oh well. >> >> >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. >http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 20:29:13 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: birthday wishes i want to thank and hug all the beautiful people that sent messages on my birthday. i send a big hug too to those who forgot or didn't know or didn't want to or were away or had a toothache or simply don't have the slightest idea of who one is. it was a GOOD birthday, considering. and you jmdlers were the best part of the day! i want to give special thanks to (alphabetically!!!): catherine mckay chris marshall colin cindy jimmy jim lama jody kakki kate magsie and duckie boi marian mark connely (*****) michael paz raffaele rosie stephen epstein stevie mitchell susan guzzi i'm not njc-ing because i don't know who's which on my thank-you list. to all the jmdl family: I L O V E Y O U wallyK, now 42 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 18:30:29 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: How do you cope and let go? njc In a message dated 12/29/02 5:58:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, wallykai@fibertel.com.ar writes: > and yet, i > can tell you all these things because i believe them, because they have > happened to me and because they are natural. > welcome change, however deeply it may hurt. it means that you are slowly > getting ready for something special. > Oh Wally, you are such a wise and insightful man. You old goat you! lol I love you dearly. I know all of what you are saying is true. I know all about the hope traps, the mourning the death of the marriage, the changes I must adjust to, etc., etc. A very wise woman over there in MA told me of a self help book I've been reading. You all know who she is ;0) It's helped me a lot. The problem I am having is that he is still here. It's very difficult to let go of someone when you have to share the same living quarters. He's unemployed, I'm only temporarily employed and so the story goes....I need to gain my independence in order to successfully readjust to my new single life. A hot shot attorney at work has been a huge support to me. It's funny how you find that in the strangest places. much love, roses blue, but looking forward to a beautiful life ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 17:47:30 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Disappointment NJC As a last resort BEFORE the farm animals??? What exactly do you mean here Walter?? Paz on 12/29/02 2:30 PM, Wally Kairuz at wallykai@fibertel.com.ar wrote: > that happens to me all the time!!!! how do they know one's name and > address???? lately i've been bombarded by ''teenage girls have barn sex with > horse''. why would they? there's always michael paz for example. > wallyK > > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de colin > Enviado el: Domingo, 29 de Diciembre de 2002 06:23 p.m. > Para: joni@smoe.org > Asunto: Disappointment NJC > > > I just opened my mail to find a mail headed; > > I am Hungry For You Colin > > Finally, someone on the list really has the hots for me! > > But no it was a woman with huge tits suggesting I go and visit her site > sometime. > > oh well. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 00:19:12 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: birthday wishes >wallyK, now 42 > you bastard! you ahev 2 years on me. I thought you wqetre the OLDER one! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 19:24:43 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Disappointment NJC Thanks for the chuckle, U guys are a hoot! Sick bastids. btw, I keep getting enhance the size of your penis emails, and I don't have a dick! oops, sorry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 19:39:27 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Disappointment NJC In a message dated 12/29/02 4:23:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk writes: > I just opened my mail to find a mail headed; > > I am Hungry For You Colin > > I thought i was getting the same spam email, except the subject was "I am Hungry for your colon" :~) sicko Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 19:39:28 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Album of the year? njc Well, I finally got the album I'd been suspecting would be a highlight of 2002, and it's exceeded my already high expectations: Out Of Season by Beth Gibbons (her out of Portishead) and Rustin Man (Paul Webb, formerly bassist with Talk Talk). It's simply stunning, full of beautiful songs, spine-tingling singing, imaginative arrangements and a general air of quiet melancholy. The first song - Mysteries - is worth the price of admission on its own, and throws into an unfavourable light many more widely touted releases this year. If you enjoy Portishead and/or Talk Talk (although it is essential Beth Gibbons's solo debut) you need this record. Anyone else give it a listen if you can, I'm sure you won't be disappointed. Azeem, back in London after Xmas in Worcester, not far from a village called Wyre Piddle. Really. NP: Phoebe Snow - Never Letting Go (has she made a better album? I've got the self-titled one and Rock a Little, which aren't as good as this one) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 17:16:07 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Disappointment NJC COLIN! Now you've really done it! Well Colin I think our plan worked, my e-mail box is beginning to fill up with "hungry" interested women's responses. Thanks! LOL! And thanks for the laughs Colin! And yes Jimmy - you are very sick! LOL! But then, I think that quality of yours is my favorite. :-P Rose, I am going to refrain from further tempting comments that you left yourself open for ... think about it - see what I mean? :-o Peace, Susan - --- colin wrote: > but i kept my word. I didn't mention that 'guzzle susan's guzzi's' was > written right across your HUGE mams. I am a gentlemen and would never > reveal your > sluttishness to anyone. never. Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 17:55:08 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Album of the year? Now Phoebe njc Hi Azeem, I love seeing Phoebe get mentioned here! What a great voice and under appreciated talent. And how funny, but I had not listened to that album in years. Until last night, as I was making a tape for an Ex of mine. "Never Letting Go" was her favorite song and album. So it was great to hear much of it again. Needless to mention, but I will, I got ALL the albums in that break-up years ago - hence the need for me to make HER a tape! But I must say, her self titled debut album is quite delish as well. I can't believe I just said that ... delish?! You may be right about "Never Letting Go," being her best. I'll have to have an all Phoebe listening day and determine that. I think "Rock Away" was her worst, and the reason I don't own it. But I love "It Looks Like Snow" ... and "Against the Grain" is pretty good too. I love her and have seen her live ... at least 8 or 9 times - even more than Joni! Not that I do anymore and not that it's any great compliment, (but of course I have a Phoebe story), I used to be told I looked like her. The hair and glasses and well you know. So after a show one night I was smothered by adoring fans, all 6 or 7, who demanded I get MY SISTER to come out and give them all autographs. I tried to tell them it just wasnt so, but finally I relented, as I was backed into a corner. And I walked right up to her dressing room door where I asked " Can I please see my sister now?" I was led right in and over to Phoebe, no questions asked! We both kind of stared at eachother for a moment, then had a short friendly exchange and I got her autograph. I'm still don't see the resemblance - I'm cute! :-D Pardon me if I told that story before, I have no memory anymore! Still waiting for my meeting with Joni! Peace, Susan NP: Jonatha Brooke/Out Of Your Mind - --- Azeem wrote: > NP: Phoebe Snow - Never Letting Go (has she made a better album? I've got the > self-titled one and Rock a Little, which aren't as good as this one) Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 21:17:20 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Album of the year? Now Phoebe njc In a message dated 12/29/2002 8:56:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, groovchacha@yahoo.com writes: > But I love "It Looks Like Snow" Hey - me too, especially "Stand Up On the Rock"! It's just one of those songs that make you FEEL good, y'know? Of course Phoebe does a bang-up version of "A Case of You", and her live take on "At Last" (from Rock & Soul Revue) is SO fecking unbelievable, puts poor Joni's BSN take to shame. Bob NP: Rachel Z Trio, "Lakota" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 18:25:08 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: birthday wishes Well, I just turned 26 on the 27th. It feels no different and I've been told the older you get the younger you feel! Andrew (Waiting to be pounced on by boom-boom baby boomers) - --- colin wrote: > >wallyK, now 42 > > > you bastard! you ahev 2 years on me. I thought you > wqetre the OLDER one! Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 18:03:32 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: How do you cope and let go? njc Hi Rose, > A hot shot attorney at work has been a huge support to me. It's funny how you find that in the > strangest places. Wally K's words are full of wisdom. In my experience with particularly tortuous loss and grief, it was also the least likely people in my life who were the best medicine and support. I have a friend right now who is going through a situation much like yours. She was one of the unlikely ones who helped me a few years ago, so now I want to return the support as best I can. I know those feelings of seething rage and resentment and finally learned that the more one focuses on them, the longer they last because they have a toxic way of being self-perpetuating. I've had friends ask me at times how I ever finally got over certain bad times and in some cases it was because I simply got sick and tired of listening to myself focus on them! One day you will be there, too, Rose, and it will all be good. In the meantime, try to get some sunshine, try to remember to take your vitamins, take long soaks in the tub and listen to beautiful music. These simple things do help. And know that you have more people who care then you can imagine. Kakki ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #593 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)