From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #588 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, December 25 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 588 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- happiness greetings to all [cul heath ] Re: happiness greetings to all [colin ] Merry Christmas [Catherine McKay ] Re: Elvis Costello on Travelogue NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] A Christmas Joni Morning Memory [Mark129@cs.com] Re: A Christmas Joni Morning Memory sjc [RoseMJoy@aol.com] An Apology and Goodbye [nyroman ] Re: Kratzmann, Australia & Exams ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: An Apology and Goodbye [RoseMJoy@aol.com] thanx for the best wishes [cul heath ] a joni classic ["Marianne Rizzo" ] Re: (Kept On) By Her Own Devices LP [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: thanx for the best wishes NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: thanx for the best wishes NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] njc [cul heath ] Re: thanx for the best wishes NJC [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: thanx for the best wishes [colin ] Re: An Apology and Goodbye [colin ] RE: Islam versus the West njc ["Nikki Johnson" ] RE: Islam versus the West njc ["Nikki Johnson" ] Re: a joni classic ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: 'prepare' njc [WILLIAM FOWLER ] RE: Heart-mandolins and lutes NJC ["Nikki Johnson" ] Joni on orchestration in 1968 ["PAUL PETERSON" ] Re: Islam versus the West njc [colin ] December 26th!!!!!!! [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: December 26th!!!!!!! NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Pods & Cheaters NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: Islam versus the West njc ["Nikki Johnson" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 01:36:49 -0800 From: cul heath Subject: happiness greetings to all A silent night indeed in coastal vancouver Since roomie/mate is in the interior of BC to dance the holiday familial with kin and since this year I am taking a break from that sort thing, I'm alone in the house and feeling it. May I borrow your ear? Its not bad; its spacey and reflective and being filled with playing the keys creatively... sometimes Joni , sometimes me, sometimes things I don't think anyone owns yet. One of the aspects of Joni music that I have always treasured is how it has always been the best tutor one could ever hope for; and on so many levels. Joni educated me. She expanded my musical abilites in an immense way and more importantly perhaps, she has been a great instructer of attitude and what it means to be an adult. I think that's why I was so obsessed (in a good way of course) with her for so many years; I used her as the centerpiece of my social evolution. I am a woman of heart and mind With time on her hands No child to raise You come to me like a little boy And I give you my scorn and my praise You think I'm like your mother Or another lover or your sister Or the queen of your dreams Or just another silly girl When love makes a fool of me Ah, the salad days of romance and and naive certainties. All situations resolved to snippets of Mitchell lyric...it was incredible how easily her lyrics fit so many different random circumstances. She occupied at least a third of my communications. Yes I was a bonafide Joni Pod Person...an enslaved JPP...its true. But I feel better in these days of middle age...less capitivated by the iconic. I don't idolize things anymore. I am still fascinated by creation, but I have assumed a certain responsibility for my own and that means idols and gods and nations do not evoke any allegiance in me beyond showing respect for that which evidences itself as "something to grow on". And that is a good description of how I now attach to Mitchell. I lose myself in one of her tunes and ideas of my own spill out and I find myself fluidly playing things that are unique and bizarre and stretch me. Mitchell is a fabulous tool for the ear and emotional center. So this is Christmas... Outside it is still and frosty. What was supposed to be rain today turned into a hour or two cascade of fat snowflakes. It was enough to leave a scattering of white on lawns and trees and parked cars, but melted on the streets. The Christians were calling it a miracle. All it for me was evoke thoughts of the drifts on Myrtle's lawn and all those harsh winters in Winnipeg walking on snow that squeaked underfoot. That began the sequence of noticing my solitude tonight. god goes up the chimney like childhood santa claus a good slave loves a good book a rebel loves a cause I wish peace. thanx for the ear. cul ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 11:15:26 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: happiness greetings to all >I don't idolize things anymore. > >I am still fascinated by creation, but I have assumed a certain >responsibility for my own >and that means idols and gods and nations do not evoke any allegiance in >me beyond showing respect >for that which evidences itself as "something to grow on". > > thanks for your post , michael. I never really had any idols(unless you count Samantha, the witch). It is good to have people on a levelplaying feild. good for our growth and our humanity. 'a good slave loves a good book' i wonder if she means those who slavishly follow everything written in whatever book they have decided is 'The Truth'? be happy colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 07:34:14 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Merry Christmas Merry Christmas, boys and girls, women and men, jc and njc, joni-fans and pod-people. I hope Santa was good to you. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 08:20:19 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Elvis Costello on Travelogue NJC In a message dated 12/24/2002 4:38:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, walkinggreen@eircom.net writes: > Elvis Costello was in a real Joni > mood and expressed a lot of love for Travelogue and For The Roses. Thanks for the post Tara - I wish I could have heard the broadcast, I would have LOVED to have heard what Elvis had to say about T'log. He's a gen-yoo-wine musicologist, he had a great piece in this year's Vanity Fair Music edition, if anyone read it. I refer to myself as a slut but I pale next to the master. Bob NP: Ballroom Band, "Both Sides Now" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 10:35:04 EST From: Mark129@cs.com Subject: A Christmas Joni Morning Memory Happy Christmas, Many years ago before Mr. Springsteen and before I fell in love and married,there was a radio station in the Jersey area which decided as a Christmas present to fans to play the entire double album Miles of Aisles from her tour. For those of you who would dwell today on The River or a theme of Romance,my wish for you is what we all have had with Joni's career and artistry;the ability to grow old with great music or different music and to look at Joni's backside from For the Roses (it's a guy thing) and be glad Joni and her daughter reconnected so that even if Joni has mantroubles forever,she will always have Love which is what we all want in addition to a reunion tour with Pat Matheny,James Taylor and Carole King and the Persuasions or the Brecker Bros. Hey,I can dream...later,mark in jersey who has Travelogue and one day will figure out Quicktime so I can view the paintings. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 12:36:33 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: A Christmas Joni Morning Memory sjc In a message dated 12/25/02 10:36:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, Mark129@cs.com writes: > Many years ago before Mr. Springsteen and before I fell in love and > married,there was a radio station in the Jersey area which decided as a > Christmas present to fans to play the entire double album Miles of Aisles > from her tour. Mark and my other Joni fans, Happy Holidays from Exit 9 off the NJ Turnpike LOL! It's been a great year for music. Joni released her Travelogue album; I had a blast this summer at Jonifest and, following Bruce's Tour and his reunion with the E-Street Band along the East Coast and around the world. There's more to come and I'm real excited about the next leg of the tour as it continues in February 2003! Will this man ever burn out?? Faith will be rewarded as I continue to dream/hope of meeting this guy in a South Jersey bar or restaurant. What would I say? I feckin love you man! LMAO It's a Jersey girl thing. Rediscovering my roots here. Meeting a lot of NJ musicians. Thinking about Gregg Cagno. I watched your video yesterday morning Gregg. His birthday is tomorrow BTW. I'll be the birthday fairy Wally and Jimmy and give you the day off ;0) Looking forward to the redevelopment of Asbury Park. Hoping to see Joni tour again and Tillie all lit up and the Carousel returned to her rightful home. Rosalita in a now rainy NJ it washed away all our feckin snow NP: Sheryl Crow live, Heart of Gold ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 13:04:04 -0500 From: nyroman Subject: An Apology and Goodbye Dear Friends of Joni, Hoping I too may bend your ear on this Christmas day. The past year for me has been especially difficult, as a very few of you know. It seems I've been plagued with financial and personal problems and had hoped that my move to Los Angeles this year from Detroit would help me to find hope, a new start and a little happiness in my ability to sing. Unfortunately that was not the case. I left a job of 17 years to make the move, stayed with people that I thought were my friends, only to leave saddened and disappointed. Since my return to Detroit, I have found only minimal work, and have been notified by the people that I am staying with that my room has been rented and that I must vacate at the end of the month. I am not sure that things could possibly get worse at this point. I have never been at the brink of homelessness before, and such minimal work; and I do not have a network of friends for support, except for two or three who simply are not able to help. I have only my mom left, who was admitted to the hospital on Monday with COPD and a collapsed lung. I am expecting that my last day at this residence will be December 31st, so I will be leaving the list on that date. Do know how much I will miss the friends I have made here, as well as those I don't know personally, but feel I know so well by their posts during the past two years. I am sorry to be using the list for this one last request, but as one who loves Joni as much as the rest of you obviously do, I hope you won't mind this last request too much. If there is anyone out there who is in the position of hiring for employment, please do write me, and please, OFF LIST, and I would be happy to discuss my qualifications in greater depth. I would be most grateful. There is no reason for me to necessarily continue living in Michigan in the future, if an opportunity presents itself elsewhere. Or if you have suggestions, they too would be gratefully received. I will be at this e-mail address until the 31st; and after that, I am not sure where I will be. I do maintain a hotmail account which I will check when I can, so for future reference, I can be reached at nyroman98@hotmail.com. If I have the means, I'll rejoin you all on the list as soon as I am able. Thanks for reading my poor and weary words, especially at this time of the year. But if my post does one thing for any of you, I hope it is that you will realize how lucky you are to have family still living; brothers or sisters you can rely on, a warm place to live, and people who love you. This is the time when Joni and my love for her and her music, particularly hits home for me and brings the tears..."I wish I had a river, I could skate away on....." Peace and blessings to you all! Gary Zack P.S. Please forgive the njc - I wanted to reach as many of you as I could. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 09:42:28 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Kratzmann, Australia & Exams mags >>my daughter had to present a poem at school and she chose Joni Mitchell's work , and the other day on the phone, she even quoted Joni lyrics within the context of a conversation we were having.<< woohoo mags, you raised her well! what a proud parenting moment for you... happy holidays to all you wonderful jmdl folks, pods & nonpods alike! lol...have a lovely day ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 13:51:42 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: An Apology and Goodbye Gary, Your post touched my heart. I'm so sorry for the bad turn of events in your life. Hopefully someone here can help u. Does anyone have a place for this brother to stay till he gets back on his feet? It hasn't been a good year for me either. I lost my sister this year Right now my husband is still unemployed and I have only a temp job that I know will end soon. I may be in the same situation soon, so I totally empathize with you. NP: Bruucce live in Philly 10/06/02, Land of Hope And Dreams I was there! This is for you Gary....... Land Of Hope And Dreams Grab your ticket and your suitcase Thunder's rolling down the tracks You don't know where you're goin' But you know you won't be back Darlin' if you're weary Lay your head upon my chest We'll take what we can carry And we'll leave the rest Big Wheels rolling through fields Where sunlight streams Meet me in a land of hope and dreams I will provide for you And I'll stand by your side You'll need a good companion for This part of the ride Leave behind your sorrows Let this day be the last Tomorrow there'll be sunshine And all this darkness past Big wheels roll through fields Where sunlight streams Meet me in a land of hope and dreams This train Carries saints and sinners This train Carries losers and winners This Train Carries whores and gamblers This Train Carries lost souls This Train Dreams will not be thwarted This Train Faith will be rewarded This Train Hear the steel wheels singin' This Train Bells of freedom ringin' This Train Carries broken-hearted This Train Thieves and sweet souls departed This Train Carries fools and kings This Train All aboard This Train Dreams will not be thwarted This Train Faith will be rewarded This Train Hear the steel wheels singin' This Train Bells of freedom ringin' Wishiing u the best my friend hugs, rosalita it's feckin snowing here again ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 12:02:11 -0800 From: cul heath Subject: thanx for the best wishes Thanx to the people who sent me warm responses to my last post about being alone on Christmas eve. You are all so kind. To give credit where it is due, I used the term "Pod People" to describe the condition of being slavishly dedicated to an idol or an idea, credit for such a perfect term goes to Colin. He used it in a recent email to me and I found it so ideal that I of course immediately adopted it as my own. Pardon me, Colin for the blatant and uncredit theft. :) I spent the whole night until about 4am composing and playing music with nearly no breaks...it was wonderful and I learned more Mitchell tunes in the process. I plan to spend all of today doing the same...its my little christmas gift to me :) hope you are all having a sweet day...I know I will. cul ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 15:28:52 -0500 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: a joni classic Happy holidays Everyone. I wish you all good things. . . I am not caught up with the joni digests so excuse me if this question has been asked before. . . I was listening to James Taylor's "Have yourself a Merry Little Christmas" on the radio yesterday and I wondered, if Joni were to record one classic holiday song, which one might it be? or which one do you think she should do? I am thinking that the lyrics of the song must resonate with her. . . What do you think? Also I wanted to say something to Rudolf and don't know how else to contact him. "Happpiest holidays to you Rudolf. . . . . and I loved you before everyone else did." My best to all you beautiful Joni people. Love Marianne _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 16:08:17 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: (Kept On) By Her Own Devices LP In a message dated 12/25/2002 2:49:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, rwynnycky@hotmail.com writes: > Some of the above only came out in '72 on FTR, so I have doubts about them > being performed in Oct. '70. > > How come I can't find a mention of (KO)BHOD anywhere? > > Well, that's a good point, Roman...I guess now that I look at it, this particular boot is a blending of several appearances, much like the "Lights Out In Georgia" bootleg. The setlist would dictate that it is actually several different shows. I've always said that what JM.com lacks is a proper discography, detailing not just Joni's LP/CD releases, but singles and EP's. And like them or not, there should be a spot somewhere with some info on the many Joni bootlegs out there. For all of its faults, the Brian Hinton biography "Both Sides Now" does offer some details about Joni bootlegs, plus it gave some neat covers info. I've got a copy of the Hinton book, I'll see what he says about KOBHOD, even though he's probably wrong. ;~) Bob NP: Some cheesy version of "Away In A Manger"...Mannheim Steamroller or some such ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 16:12:42 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: thanx for the best wishes NJC In a message dated 12/25/2002 3:02:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, culheath@telus.net writes: > To give credit where it is due, I used the term "Pod People" to describe > the condition of being slavishly dedicated to > an idol or an idea I always thought the phrase "pod people" was associated with the film(s) "Invasion of the Body Snatchers", to indicate the brainless "pods" who were controlled by others. Was that the intent of the phrase. Trivia: which actor appeared in both the original & the remake of the film? Bob NP: "Do You Hear What I Hear" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 16:19:34 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: thanx for the best wishes NJC Bob asks: << Trivia: which actor appeared in both the original & the remake of the film? >> Bette Midler? Merry Christmas! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 14:25:32 -0800 From: cul heath Subject: njc Hi Bob :) Yes, that was the intent. I have no idea about the actor who appeared in both the original and remake(s). There were two remakes I believe, one in the late 70's and one in the mid-90's. When Colin mentioned the term that was the first thing that came to mind, but I didn't know it was a common term with such a specific reference behind it. Any any rate, it certainly fits the temper of the the times we are in and the Body Snatchers in general is a perfect allegory for the group-think allegiances being demanded by the so-called war on terror. Be cool, cul SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: To give credit where it is due, I used the term "Pod People" to describe the condition of being slavishly dedicated to an idol or an idea I always thought the phrase "pod people" was associated with the film(s) "Invasion of the Body Snatchers", to indicate the brainless "pods" who were controlled by others. Was that the intent of the phrase. Trivia: which actor appeared in both the original & the remake of the film? Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 17:41:02 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: thanx for the best wishes NJC In a message dated 12/25/02 4:13:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, SCJoniGuy@aol.com writes: > Trivia: which actor appeared in both the original & the remake of the film? > > Kevin McCarthy I cheated though ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 23:53:04 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: thanx for the best wishes cul heath wrote: > Thanx to the people who sent me warm responses to my last post about > being alone on Christmas eve. > You are all so kind. > > To give credit where it is due, I used the term "Pod People" to > describe the condition of being slavishly dedicated to > an idol or an idea, credit for such a perfect term goes to Colin. He > used it in a recent email to me and I found it so ideal > that I of course immediately adopted it as my own. Pardon me, Colin > for the blatant and uncredit theft. :) Cul-it wasn't me-honest! I did use yes but it wasn't me who used it in the first place. Soemone used it about T'log, or rather about the people discussing it. I can't recall which side it was meant for! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 23:58:18 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: An Apology and Goodbye Gary-I am not in your situation but i used to be. i was homeless, family less, penny less. I never thought it would work out. It did. It will for you too as long as you keep aware. love colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 19:17:14 -0500 From: "Nikki Johnson" Subject: RE: Islam versus the West njc I am a little wary of joining in this complex debate...but just wanted to add a small thing in and that is that Islam actually does teach respecting humanity and human rights...however I will not disagree that in many ways this is not played out in practice. I have not lived in a Muslim country but I have experienced the stares of Americans from having my hair covered and the disbelief that someone would choose this path when superficial media knowledge prevails and guides the dominant discourse. Love Nikki > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of > sl.m@shaw.ca > Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 3:08 PM > To: azeemak@aol.com; joni@smoe.org; joni-digest@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Islam versus the West njc > > > Azeem, why is it offensively ignorant to say that Islam as practised > by the overwhelming majority of countries in which it's the ruling > ideology doesn't respect human rights? > > No, I've never lived in a Moslem country, but yes, I've visited Arab > countries many times. And I am not way off track. I agree that the > picture is complex, more so than can be conveyed in a discussion > list. But it's important not to use complexity as an excuse not to > condemn. The reasons behind paedophilia are complex, but that > doesn't mean it's okay to rape children. > > I take your point about the English tourist getting lost in Pakistan > and being treated well. I think it could happen in Britain with a > lost tourist from Pakistan, and I'm thinking particularly of > Scotland. Maybe not so likely, I concede that. > > How has the USA participated in the genocide of its native peoples > within recent living memory? What are you thinking of exactly? > > I agree about Britain. Almost everything that's happening now in the > Middle East is because of British foreign policy and it's carving up > of land, which is why so many of the borders are straight lines. > There will have to be a realignment before there's peace in the > Middle East and it's going to take a very long time. This stand-off > between Bush and Saddam is almost a side issue in the big picture of > the Arab world finding its post-colonial feet. > > But I think "we" in the West are right about many things, and > shouldn't be ashamed to say so. We live in vibrant cultures, we > have access to wonderful art and literature, education, a lot of > freedom, good medical care (however much we moan about it, a lot > better than most of the world). We respect other people's rights, we > allow immigrants into our countries and do our best (not always > successfully) to welcome them and we respect their rights to practise > their own religions and cultural values after they come to live with > us. This doesn't ever happen in the Arab world, I can promise you. > Go live there and you do as they say, and stuff your own cultural > values. > > The first time I was in Syria, I met this woman through work, and we > became great friends in the three weeks I was there. She was in her > 30s, modern, clever, educated. At the end of my stay, I gave her my > address in London and invited her to come and visit me, and to stay > as long as she wanted. She burst into tears. She explained how much > she would love to do that, but she wasn't allowed because she was a > woman. She would need her father's written permission before she > could leave the country and he would never give it. Even with > written permission, she would have to find a male relative to > accompany her. Her only hope for freedom, she said, is if she's > lucky enough to marry an Arab man who has been educated in the West > and who has respect for women. But such men are hard to find, and > they tend to prefer women who have also been educated in the West. > So she saw her future as very bleak, and she doesn't believe she will > ever see London. > > That was in Syria, which is liberal compared with some Islamic > countries, and where women are not expected to wear the veil and are > allowed to work and go to college. > > This is disgraceful, and we should not support it. Sometimes > complexity can be reduced to very simple moral issues, Azeem. > > Sarah > > > > > At 1:20 PM -0500 12/23/2002, AzeemAK@aol.com wrote: > >In a message dated 23/12/2002 16:16:25 GMT Standard Time, > sl.m@shaw.ca writes: > > > ><< But Islam as practised by the overwhelming majority of countries > >in which it's the ruling ideology does not respect human rights at > >all. >> > > > >This is offensively ignorant. Have you ever spent time or lived in > >a Muslim country? I have, and I can assure you that you are way off > >track. I've had many debates with my family in Pakistan around this > >subject, and the picture is much more complex than you seem to be > >seeing it. I am not a Muslim, and disagree violently with what is > >happening in some predominantly Muslim countries. I also disagree > >with what happens and has happened in some predominantly Christian > >countries. > > > >If, say, an English tourist gets lost travelling through Pakistan > >and knocks on someone's door, they will be taken in and given > >shelter and food, even if the household can barely afford to feed > >itself. Imagine a Pakistani man knocking on a door in a village in > >England, unable to speak a word of English. Maybe he will be shown > >that level of hospitality; more likely he will be told to "get the > >hell off my property". > > > >Australia and the USA have participated in the genocides of their > >native peoples; in the case of the former this was happening within > >recent living memory. Britain has colonised large swathes of the > >world, subjugated local people, stolen their land and their > >resources and swiped many cultural treasures. > > > >The thing that appals me about the West is the assumption that "we" > >are right and have the right to tell other countries what to do. > >Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 19:17:14 -0500 From: "Nikki Johnson" Subject: RE: Islam versus the West njc I am a little wary of joining in this complex debate...but just wanted to add a small thing in and that is that Islam actually does teach respecting humanity and human rights...however I will not disagree that in many ways this is not played out in practice. I have not lived in a Muslim country but I have experienced the stares of Americans from having my hair covered and the disbelief that someone would choose this path when superficial media knowledge prevails and guides the dominant discourse. Love Nikki > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of > sl.m@shaw.ca > Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 3:08 PM > To: azeemak@aol.com; joni@smoe.org; joni-digest@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Islam versus the West njc > > > Azeem, why is it offensively ignorant to say that Islam as practised > by the overwhelming majority of countries in which it's the ruling > ideology doesn't respect human rights? > > No, I've never lived in a Moslem country, but yes, I've visited Arab > countries many times. And I am not way off track. I agree that the > picture is complex, more so than can be conveyed in a discussion > list. But it's important not to use complexity as an excuse not to > condemn. The reasons behind paedophilia are complex, but that > doesn't mean it's okay to rape children. > > I take your point about the English tourist getting lost in Pakistan > and being treated well. I think it could happen in Britain with a > lost tourist from Pakistan, and I'm thinking particularly of > Scotland. Maybe not so likely, I concede that. > > How has the USA participated in the genocide of its native peoples > within recent living memory? What are you thinking of exactly? > > I agree about Britain. Almost everything that's happening now in the > Middle East is because of British foreign policy and it's carving up > of land, which is why so many of the borders are straight lines. > There will have to be a realignment before there's peace in the > Middle East and it's going to take a very long time. This stand-off > between Bush and Saddam is almost a side issue in the big picture of > the Arab world finding its post-colonial feet. > > But I think "we" in the West are right about many things, and > shouldn't be ashamed to say so. We live in vibrant cultures, we > have access to wonderful art and literature, education, a lot of > freedom, good medical care (however much we moan about it, a lot > better than most of the world). We respect other people's rights, we > allow immigrants into our countries and do our best (not always > successfully) to welcome them and we respect their rights to practise > their own religions and cultural values after they come to live with > us. This doesn't ever happen in the Arab world, I can promise you. > Go live there and you do as they say, and stuff your own cultural > values. > > The first time I was in Syria, I met this woman through work, and we > became great friends in the three weeks I was there. She was in her > 30s, modern, clever, educated. At the end of my stay, I gave her my > address in London and invited her to come and visit me, and to stay > as long as she wanted. She burst into tears. She explained how much > she would love to do that, but she wasn't allowed because she was a > woman. She would need her father's written permission before she > could leave the country and he would never give it. Even with > written permission, she would have to find a male relative to > accompany her. Her only hope for freedom, she said, is if she's > lucky enough to marry an Arab man who has been educated in the West > and who has respect for women. But such men are hard to find, and > they tend to prefer women who have also been educated in the West. > So she saw her future as very bleak, and she doesn't believe she will > ever see London. > > That was in Syria, which is liberal compared with some Islamic > countries, and where women are not expected to wear the veil and are > allowed to work and go to college. > > This is disgraceful, and we should not support it. Sometimes > complexity can be reduced to very simple moral issues, Azeem. > > Sarah > > > > > At 1:20 PM -0500 12/23/2002, AzeemAK@aol.com wrote: > >In a message dated 23/12/2002 16:16:25 GMT Standard Time, > sl.m@shaw.ca writes: > > > ><< But Islam as practised by the overwhelming majority of countries > >in which it's the ruling ideology does not respect human rights at > >all. >> > > > >This is offensively ignorant. Have you ever spent time or lived in > >a Muslim country? I have, and I can assure you that you are way off > >track. I've had many debates with my family in Pakistan around this > >subject, and the picture is much more complex than you seem to be > >seeing it. I am not a Muslim, and disagree violently with what is > >happening in some predominantly Muslim countries. I also disagree > >with what happens and has happened in some predominantly Christian > >countries. > > > >If, say, an English tourist gets lost travelling through Pakistan > >and knocks on someone's door, they will be taken in and given > >shelter and food, even if the household can barely afford to feed > >itself. Imagine a Pakistani man knocking on a door in a village in > >England, unable to speak a word of English. Maybe he will be shown > >that level of hospitality; more likely he will be told to "get the > >hell off my property". > > > >Australia and the USA have participated in the genocides of their > >native peoples; in the case of the former this was happening within > >recent living memory. Britain has colonised large swathes of the > >world, subjugated local people, stolen their land and their > >resources and swiped many cultural treasures. > > > >The thing that appals me about the West is the assumption that "we" > >are right and have the right to tell other countries what to do. > >Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 19:31:52 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: a joni classic Good question ..Marianne! Hmmmmm..either I saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus or the Hippotamisses song. Just fooling! Maybe.. Blue Christmas or Chestnuts (The Christmas Song) (Geez..I don't know why that would come to me?) I hope you had a lovely holiday too! Love... Bree >Happy holidays Everyone. >I wish you all good things. . . > >I was listening to James Taylor's "Have yourself a Merry Little Christmas" >on the radio yesterday and I wondered, if Joni were to record one classic >holiday song, which one might it be? > >or which one do you think she should do? > >I am thinking that the lyrics of the song must resonate with her. . . > >What do you think? > >Also I wanted to say something to Rudolf and don't know how else to contact >him. "Happpiest holidays to you Rudolf. . . . . and I loved you before >everyone else did." > >My best to all you beautiful Joni people. > >Love Marianne > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online >http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_addphotos_3mf ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 19:50:53 -0800 From: WILLIAM FOWLER Subject: Re: 'prepare' njc Many things can be said about the current state of world affairs. First of all, I am an American, and a Republican, conservative one, at that. I voted for George Bush, and I think he is doing an excellent job. One can look at America in several ways. First, the Japanese "surprised" the American public (but not FDR and his cronies) with Pearl Harbor, and we all know what happened after that. Hussein and his Al-Quaida terrorist friends must pay for what they are doing in the world. They seek out the destruction of Israel and hate the USA because we stand with Israel. God promised Israel their land. It does not belong to the Palestinians or the Arabs in general. It belongs to the Jews, God's chosen people. Terrorists and those who harbor them must pay the price for September 11. The Bible talks about the end times, the time before Jesus' return, as a time of wars and rumors of wars. This is such a time. Of course, there is another way of looking at things, too. We look down the course of history at great empires such as Rome, and how they overextended themselves, leading to ruin and the collapse of that particular civilization. Maybe in some way, although I hope not, this is what is happening to the USA. Between Afghanistan, North Korea, Iran, Iraq, etc., etc., maybe the sweeping hand of history is now turning towards the USA, although I hope not... Bill > colin wrote: > > > > > I wonder if he is about to attack NK? or is China a bit too close? > > > > One of our newspapers yesterday had a whole frontpage warning the world > > about a mad man with weapons of mass destruction-accomanpied by a pic of > > Bush. I said on the list years ago that a ,lot of us non Americans felt > > that WW3 would be started by the USA. It is not just non whites who fear > > the USA. And it has othing to do with hatred of the uSA. It has to do > > with genuine, fact based, fear. It seems the uDSA is answerable to no > > one and expects eveyone else to answer to it. > > As for Blair-how shameful.One opion here is that the reason he is > > behaving as he is is ebcause he wants to Pres be of the USE. Seems daft > > to me as I have nasty feeling there won't a USE to be pres of-or a USA > > or anywhere. I hate to be so pessimistic, and I truly hope I am wrong, > > but it gets increasingly diffiuclt to believe we are not all fucked. For > > years I kidded myself that no one was as mad as this, that no one would > > dare start a game. But then i didn't undertadn how far fundametalism had > > spread and that the worlds greatest power(after China) would be so > > influenced by it. > > Not just fundamentalism (though it always helps to have God on > your side)--money and control of the world's resources. There are > plenty of evil despots around. Some of them are our allies like > Turkey. Some of them supply terrorists who blow up skyscrapers > in New York (Saudi Arabia). Iraq sits on the second largest oil > reserves in the world. > But you just never know how history is going to play out. Who > could have predicted the fall of the Berlin Wall, Nixon's resignation, > withdrawl from Vietnam...there is certainly reason to fear the > nuclear sword being waved. Maybe there is still hope that the > American public will wake up and oust the scoundrels, though > the last election wasn't encouraging. Probably the only thing > that will really get their attention is the falling economy and a > 200 billion dollar pricetag for the "war" against Iraq. > While people suffer in Iraq due to a horrible excuse for a > human (Sadam), somehow, killing them with bombs will probably > not help their plight. > RR ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 19:52:23 -0500 From: "Nikki Johnson" Subject: RE: Heart-mandolins and lutes NJC Oh well thank you :-) Obviously it is one of my favorite lines and songs also. The guitar is amazing on it. I also love the mandolin - Les maybe you could get cracking on how to add mandolin into more songs? lol. I met Ann one summer and her and a few guys on the Abbey Road tour were jamming and I said what about Joni? And Ann went "Joni?!" and smiled and we started singing BYT. It was a lot of fun. Those Wilson sisters are mad talented and like someone else pointed out only get recognized for the 80's stuff but have done a lot more. Love Nikki np: Lauren Hill Unplugged > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of > William Chavez > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 2:01 AM > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Heart-mandolins and lutes NJC > > > >"Ever since I was a baby girl the one thing I wanted most in this >world > >was to keep my love alive..." ~ Heart > > I LOVE this line, I LOVE this song and I LOVE the guitar work on > this song. > This is one of my all time favorite Heart songs and album. And > "Dream of the > Archer"... why doesn't anybody do songs centered around a mandolin > anymore??? Even in Bluegrass(which I can listen to only in small doses) > always uses them in the background or minor leads. This is a > bunch of crap. > Someone needs to bring this instrument (and the lute) back into > rock/pop and > most definitely back into classical! > Have any of you noticed that their is a lute playing a tiny part in T'log? > Will > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 02:20:41 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: 'prepare' njc > God promised Israel >their land. It does not belong to the Palestinians or the Arabs in general. >It belongs to the Jews, God's chosen people. Terrorists and those who >harbor them must pay the price for September 11. The Bible talks about the >end times, the time before Jesus' return, as a time of wars and rumors of >wars. This is such a time. > and you wonder why so many think the USA and it's fundies are nuts. The above sort of claptrap is no different to the hatred being spewed by the fundy Islamists. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 21:45:46 -0500 From: "PAUL PETERSON" Subject: Joni on orchestration in 1968 "If I'd recorded a year ago," as Joni tells it "I would have used lots of orchestration. No one would have let me put out an acoustic album. They would have said it's like having a whole paintbox and using only brown. But today is a better time to be recording. It's like in fashion. There's no real style right now. You find who you are and you dress accordingly. In music today I feel that I can put down my songs with an acoustic guitar and forget the violins and not feel that I need them." Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. 34 years later and she found who she is and dressed accordingly. Lovely ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 02:56:53 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Islam versus the West njc > but >I have experienced the stares of Americans from having my hair covered > I have no problem with people following their beliefs until they start to force it upon others. I also understand that islam does teach about human rights etc. However, I find it it difficult to marry this with the idea that women must cover themselves. If men had to as well, that would put it in a different context. Mind you, Islam is not the only one. Catholic women should cover their hair in church. certain Jewish women cover their hair by wearing a wig, which is quite absurd.(it is also stated in the New Testament that women should be quiet in church too whcih certainly counts out female envangelsts etc but little deatils like that never did get in the way of fundy thinking) All three faiths, Xtian, Muslim and Jewish have killed(and still do) in the name of their God, the irony of which seems to escape all of them. Although, when one reads the bible at least, it is not surprising people(who floow that system) think it is okay to kill for their God. It is sick, to say the least, that these fundy types are so eager to see Armageddon, to have their sick fantasies and visions fulfilled. Only a twisted human could have such an idea of God, made in their image. For truly the God they speak of is but their idea, based on the negative of man's nature-vengeance, jealousy, vanity, cruelty, conditional love (which is an oxymoron). Although I would argue that these things are not really man's nature but the result of fear. I think we as human beings are capable of so much more, have far more power than we believe we have, and in fact are afraid of it. So we abidicate our repsonsibilty, instill fear into our children(that is where the rot starts) and blame God or the devil for our ills. I believe what Jesus is supposed to have said: 'the kingdom of heaven is within' and that god dwells within us, not without us. It follows that we can never be separate from god, except in our thinking. The only 'unforgivebale sin' is that of a closed mind. A closed mind cannot be changed. The world is such a mess today because we all look outside of ourselves to find the answers. We think that education will solve everything. We even think we know how to solve the problems-by getting others to chnage! We really have not evolved in our thinking despite all the evidence that shows our thinking is crap! And those puffed with pride(and inwardly shaking with fear) sneer at those who offer peace and not killing as an alternative. The meek really will inherit the earth. And no meek does not mean doormat, nor does it mean the firghtened ones who let the enemy walk over them. It means those who are free in their minds, who have open minds, who do not succomb to fear and pride and passion, who do not grasp tightly to their inflated ideas of themselves and what they think The Truth is. Meekness is a virute, not a weakness. it is the ability to think without prejudice, without pride, without fear. the ability to change. Those of us that are always right are condemed to suffer the consequences. The world needs more meek people. As it is it is in a mess ebcause of those who think they are right beyond doubt and because the rest of us are too scared or self involved to do anything about it. If we really want peace, then we will bring it about within ourselves first. if we reallyt want peace, we will let go of the need to be right. It seems being right is worht more to most of us than peace. I belive we as human beings have what it takes to live in peace, to always have postive regard for eachother, to truly love oneanother. I believe we can conquer our fear. we either live in love or in fear. the choice is ours. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 22:28:02 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: December 26th!!!!!!! He's a gifted singer/songwriter/guitar player who's got the groove. He's got a smile that will melt your heart. Join me in wishing a wonderful birthday to Mr. Gregg Cagno over there in a snow laden Pennsylvania I'm sure. Happy Birthday Gregg!! missing you Rosie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 22:55:16 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: December 26th!!!!!!! NJC Hi Gregg, and Happy Birthday, and a big hey to Maggie too! Really dug y'all's holiday CD, it helped to lift me out of my Bah-Humbug mood. Maggie's really a very talented singer, youse guys can go ahead and start your own little King family! (Once you get married...):~) Many happy returns of the day my friend! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 22:58:36 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Pods & Cheaters NJC In a message dated 12/25/2002 5:42:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, RoseMJoy@aol.com writes: > Kevin McCarthy > I cheated though > Shame, Rosie...I was hoping someone else knew it without cheating. He was the lead actor in the original, made in the 50's, and had a bit part as a panicking person in the street in the re-make in the late 70's or maybe even the 80's. The original was a better film but the remake had a nice shot of Brooke Adams nekkid. Bob NP: Trapt, "Stories" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 23:56:19 -0500 From: "Nikki Johnson" Subject: RE: Islam versus the West njc Islam actually allows for other religions to practice their religion and for those who do not follow Islam to reach God so I think that makes it easy to not force it on others. It is also suggested men cover. If you look at what is at the heart of covering it is modesty. Also, killing is prohibited unless attacked and necessary in self defense. A lot of people (Both Muslim and non-Muslim) take the idea of Jihad as waging a physical war. There is much evidence in the Quran that the Jihad is an inner war, not an external one, with yourself to follow the path to God. I guess that much of what you talk about is again, what is played out, and not how I and many others interpret the religion. And, I suppose it is those who interpret it differently that have power and are the loudest. Also, it seems as if when you talk about responsibility that it is very important to take responsibility for your own actions. That is also stressed in Islam. I guess I am replying just to say that you mention a few common things that people say and when you actually look and study what is in the Quran it is not necessarily what you have heard about it or have seen people on TV act. Love Nikki > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of colin > Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2002 9:57 PM > To: joni@smoe.org > Cc: joni-digest@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Islam versus the West njc > > > > but > >I have experienced the stares of Americans from having my hair covered > > > I have no problem with people following their beliefs until they start > to force it upon others. > I also understand that islam does teach about human rights etc. > However, I find it it difficult to marry this with the idea that women > must cover themselves. If men had to as well, that would put it in a > different context. > > Mind you, Islam is not the only one. Catholic women should cover their > hair in church. certain Jewish women cover their hair by wearing a wig, > which is quite absurd.(it is also stated in the New Testament that women > should be quiet in church too whcih certainly counts out female > envangelsts etc but little deatils like that never did get in the way of > fundy thinking) > > All three faiths, Xtian, Muslim and Jewish have killed(and still do) in > the name of their God, the irony of which seems to escape all of them. > Although, when one reads the bible at least, it is not surprising > people(who floow that system) think it is okay to kill for their God. > > It is sick, to say the least, that these fundy types are so eager to see > Armageddon, to have their sick fantasies and visions fulfilled. Only a > twisted human could have such an idea of God, made in their image. For > truly the God they speak of is but their idea, based on the negative of > man's nature-vengeance, jealousy, vanity, cruelty, conditional love > (which is an oxymoron). Although I would argue that these things are not > really man's nature but the result of fear. > I think we as human beings are capable of so much more, have far more > power than we believe we have, and in fact are afraid of it. So we > abidicate our repsonsibilty, instill fear into our children(that is > where the rot starts) and blame God or the devil for our ills. > > I believe what Jesus is supposed to have said: 'the kingdom of heaven is > within' and that god dwells within us, not without us. It follows that > we can never be separate from god, except in our thinking. The only > 'unforgivebale sin' is that of a closed mind. A closed mind cannot be > changed. > > The world is such a mess today because we all look outside of ourselves > to find the answers. We think that education will solve everything. We > even think we know how to solve the problems-by getting others to > chnage! We really have not evolved in our thinking despite all the > evidence that shows our thinking is crap! > > And those puffed with pride(and inwardly shaking with fear) sneer at > those who offer peace and not killing as an alternative. > The meek really will inherit the earth. And no meek does not mean > doormat, nor does it mean the firghtened ones who let the enemy walk > over them. It means those who are free in their minds, who have open > minds, who do not succomb to fear and pride and passion, who do not > grasp tightly to their inflated ideas of themselves and what they think > The Truth is. Meekness is a virute, not a weakness. it is the ability to > think without prejudice, without pride, without fear. the ability to > change. Those of us that are always right are condemed to suffer the > consequences. > > The world needs more meek people. As it is it is in a mess ebcause of > those who think they are right beyond doubt and because the rest of us > are too scared or self involved to do anything about it. > > If we really want peace, then we will bring it about within ourselves > first. if we reallyt want peace, we will let go of the need to be right. > It seems being right is worht more to most of us than peace. > > I belive we as human beings have what it takes to live in peace, to > always have postive regard for eachother, to truly love oneanother. > I believe we can conquer our fear. > we either live in love or in fear. the choice is ours. > > bw > colin ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #588 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)