From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #586 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, December 24 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 586 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #585 -- more on River [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Fwd: merry everything!!!!! (message from Wally K) for all you AWOL AOLers [Catherine McKay ] Bree ROCKS NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Beck (njc) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] the cover of Hejira was shot in Madison [Aerchak@aol.com] Re: Kratzmann, Australia & Exams [Mags N Brei ] "Joni Mitchell's Four Periods", an essay for the Internet community ["Jim] Re: the cover of Hejira was shot in Madison [Susan Guzzi ] Re: the cover of Hejira was shot in Madison [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] joke njc [colin ] Re: Merry Festive Period! (NJC) ["Lori Fye" ] Prepare, njc ["Laurent Olszer" ] RE: prepare NJC ["mike pritchard" ] Re: merry everything!!!!! NJC [Alison E ] Re: Of Interest to Old Hippies (NJC) ["chuty001" ] Re: joke njc ["chuty001" ] Merry Christmas Every one NJC ["chuty001" ] RE: joke njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] re: John gorka NJC [Alison E ] Canadian punk ["chuty001" ] Re: Canadian punk NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: joke njc ["Erica L. Trudelle" ] Re: Prepare, njc [sl.m@shaw.ca] Elvis Costello on Travelogue [Tara Lindsay ] NJC NJC for all you animal lovers and for those who aren't. ["gene mock" ] Re: CAS to Mingus [Bobsart48@aol.com] Merry Christmas and happy holidays (njc) ["kakki" ] Fw: NJC NJC for all you animal lovers and for those who aren't. ["gene mo] Last Travelogue Track/Circle Game question [NJC] ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 03:08:25 EST From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #585 -- more on River The singer is Robert Downing Jr. That would be Downey. I knew he had recorded the song but didn't know that was his vocal. I read somewhere recently that Joni liked his performance of the song. Speaking of Downey/Downing, I always watch one his films around this time of year, '"Home for the Holidays," also starring Holly Hunter and others. A fun film. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 06:50:45 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Fwd: merry everything!!!!! (message from Wally K) for all you AWOL AOLers --- Wally Kairuz wrote: > From: "Wally Kairuz" > To: > Subject: merry everything!!!!! > Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 02:15:52 -0300 > > no long messages this year -- not much imagination > available. > > just wanted to say > > I L O V E Y O U > > jmdle family!!! > > have a merry and peaceful time! > > i know a million aol-ers won't get this message > (jimmy, bob murphy [so > beloved, so unattainable]). aol-can't read me. > please somebody copy and send > this back to the list at large (yes, joni onlies > too!) so that everyone will > know how much i love and miss you all. > > thinking of my dear friends all over the world, > > wallyK ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 13:01:51 -0000 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: Re: Kratzmann, Australia & Exams John wrote: >The most general comment from adults hearing >about her appearance in the exam was "but the >kids wouldn't know who Joni Mitchell is!" >I think they might have been surprised. Yes, she is taught here in the UK too, John - if one North London school is representative, at least. I recently asked one young teenager whose music he liked best - and was surprised that I shared 'one' of his two favourites! PaulC wishing everyone a happy holiday - NP Hockey by Jane Siberry (the foeckeless version - with dogs a'barking to conceal the expletive) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 08:17:47 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Bree ROCKS NJC Well, I came home from a short travel yesterday to many packages...it was like an early Christmas. Among the parcels was my "winnings" from Bree, her buckeyes and Christmas confections, as well as a whole 'nuther box of candy! Well done, Bree! Luckily I have a teenage son who will help me devour these and I won't start 2003 looking like a piglet. In case you didn't already know...you rock, my friend! :~) Bob NP: Blue Tapestry, "California" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 08:24:16 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Beck (njc) In a message dated 12/23/2002 9:03:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, kakkib@vzavenue.net writes: > This is amazing, Bob - have you been corresponding with Robert Hilburn?! ;-) Or maybe Hilburn's been reading my posts? ;~) It's actually a pretty easy comparison...very open and raw emotionally, it reminds you of Blue fairly easily. Besides that the "Madman Across The Water" - strings and "Kid A" production values are also easily noted. I'm anxious to hear your thoughts when you hear it. I loved it at first listen. Bob NP: The Greene String Quartet, "Goodbye Pork Pie Hat" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 08:31:21 EST From: Aerchak@aol.com Subject: the cover of Hejira was shot in Madison A few weeks ago or so someone wrote a post about the view from her office window overlooking the lake in Madison. She also said that she always thought that the cover/liner photos must have been shot there. Well, I always thought so too. Joni had appeared there at UW in February, 1976 and Joel Bernstein was with her. I know because I was in grad school and went to the show. There's more to the story but I won't go on about that now. Anyway, the concert wasn't even listed on the "appearances" section of the official website. I did more research and it was the last concert of that tour, 2/29/76. So last night I'm reading Shadows and Light (the book) which finally arrived after purchasing from ebay and there's this whole thing about how Joel Berstein took those pictures on the lake in Madison. Everybody left and they stayed on in Madison. They were staying at this hotel on the lake. I believe it was called The Edgewater but I haven't been back to Madison in 26 years. So if you were the person that wondered about the cover, that was Joni skating on your lake and if you know the person who wondered please let me know so I can email her w/ my whole great story of that Joni in Madison experience. I wish I had a river (but it ended up being a lake) I could skate away on. Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 05:50:14 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: Kratzmann, Australia & Exams birthday boy John Low wrote: >The most general comment from adults hearing >about her appearance in the exam was "but the >kids wouldn't know who Joni Mitchell is!" >I think they might have been surprised. and then Paul wrote: <> and now moi: my daughter had to present a poem at school and she chose Joni Mitchell's work , and the other day on the phone, she even quoted Joni lyrics within the context of a conversation we were having. Miranda loves Woodstock, so I turned around and sent her the CD (Ladies) . :-) Mags. You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 09:28:32 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: "Joni Mitchell's Four Periods", an essay for the Internet community To new subscribers to the Joni Mitchell Discussion List, Welcome to the list. I think you will find this "place" to give you a rich environment for reflecting on some of the finest songwriting of my generation. I'm re-posting one of my essays today. Lama - --- I apologize in advance for the amateur psychology presented here. If one finds this kind of thing offensive, one is invited to delete it, unread. Joni Mitchell is a person, of course, and I respect that very much, but reviewers have always been allowed a certain amount of latitude. As you will see, I've taken considerable liberty with mine. "And so, I sit up here, the critic." (1) - --- ====================== "Joni Mitchell's Four Periods", an essay for the Internet community ====================== Contrary to popular opinion, I believe Joni Mitchell's recording career should be divided into four periods so far, not three. 1. Early Portraits 2. Master Storyteller 3. Intellect Engaged 4. In Pain No More In historical context, here's my argument. From the beginning, Joni was an artist. As a child, she sang and painted. Her Mom developed her intellect and discipline. At 9, her backbone was twisted up with polio. She underwent "the application of scalding compresses to her legs. The compresses were then removed, bringing the raw skin to the brink of blistering. Many doctors would later question the efficacy of this method, believing that its most lasting effect was not the physiological but psychological: the memory of the searing pain." (2) To escape the pain she took refuge in art. In the next passage from Karen O'Brien's book the emphasis is mine. "She'd been sent a colouring book to keep her occupied; the pictures were of old-fashioned English carol *singers*, with the *lyrics* printed alongside. Joan used cotton swabs - stained purple from the gentian violet used to treat her mouth ulcers - to *colour the illustrations*." (3) I am sure that Karen did not notice when she wrote her book how much is in those two sentences. Joni's whole career is right there. Nine-year-old Joan was meditating on singing, lyrics, and painting to offset her pain. It's all right there, at nine years old. Joan, nicknamed "Joni", evolved into a teenaged performer then began playing in coffee houses. As an art college student she obviously had tons of undeveloped talent but couldn't raise the dues to become a unionized nightclub singer. Her career was deadlocked. Then came Kelly/Kilauren. Joni kept an enormous and painful secret; she kept her daughter a secret from her parents. Ultimately, there was only one solution for her; she gave up Kelly/Kilauren for adoption. She must have been in severe anguish. She coped exactly as she did when she was nine. Joni meditated on singing, lyrics, and painting to offset her pain. Carrying an unbearable secret compelled Joni to become the exact opposite of a secret-keeper. She became the epitome of, the very embodiment of, the overtly open poet. I believe that withholding information was so disturbing that it empowered her to compensate by beautifully saying what was left to share. "The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away..."(4) It was impossible to express a single secret to her mother, but she became a vividly gifted lyricist, expressing everything else to the whole English speaking world. 1. Early Portraits "In the beginning," Joni said, "I had a soprano voice so everyone compared me to Baez. I'd written a couple of songs but I just decided that the only way that I was going to be able to differentiate myself from any other of the singers was to have original material."(5) When others picked up on the quality of the early songs, some were covered by others in the coffeehouse circuit. A few, like "Both Sides, Now", had lives as a singles on the radio way before Joni had a recording contract. "The cover versions of her songs had inevitably brought interest from the recording industry, but the offers were far from irresistible: 'Record companies offered me terrible slave labour deals in the beginning and I turned them down. I turned down [independent folk label] Vanguard. They wanted three albums a year or something. In the folk tradition, they come and stick a mike on the table in front of you, and they collect it in an hour and that's the album. And that output - I already saw Buffy [Saint-Marie] struggling under the weight of it. So I thought, no way.'" (6) She hired Elliot Roberts as her manager and apparently, assigned to him the task of getting the "right" deal. He said, ".... It was a transitional period in society and in history and you either *got* it or you didn't get it. We had to search for people who got it and once we did and found them, we found that there were an awful lot of them but they were just either underground or just coming [up], society was just changing, the long-hairs were just coming in, the war was just becoming a major issue, civil rights were [in] transition... we didn't have a niche yet, there was a very small underground, [Greenwich] Village, everyone had their little quaint, Bohemian areas, but there were very few forums for artists like Joan or for poetry or poets." (7) So Elliot kept looking for an understanding and flexible company. Karen noted, "Major labels like Columbia - an obvious choice given that it was home to Bob Dylan - and RCA turned him down."(8) This next bit is crucial to understanding what releasing records means to Joni. "Electra had another chance to sign Joni but again opted out. Danny Fields, an Electra A&R man, had urged the company to take her on. Electra's high profile and acclaimed roster of folk-rock and neo-folk artists seemed to hold out the promise of fame and fortune - until, says Fields, Joni asked to design her own album covers. The Electra art department refused and the corporate hierarchy supported the decision. 'They said, no way. Our art department does the covers. You write the songs, you sing the songs. That's as far as it goes,' Fields recalled."(9) "Elliot Roberts flew out to California armed with twenty of Mitchell's songs - almost all of the material that would later appear on her first two albums, including 'Both Sides, Now', 'Chelsea Morning', 'Michael From Mountains', 'That Song About The Midway', 'I Had A King', and 'I Don't Know Where I Stand'. He didn't have to do much persuading: 'Those are some of the greatest songs in history. How could you not hear that and go, 'I'd take a risk on that person'? And that's really what it was... the songs spoke for themselves literally, they really did.' The success of the cover versions of Mitchell's songs had also put Roberts in a strong bargaining position and he was able to negotiate an almost unprecedented concession, particularly for a new artist; his client was given complete artistic control over her albums, ranging from the cover art to sleeve notes and musical content: 'That was the hard part. They were not used to anyone saying, 'It has nothing to do with the money, we need creative control.' We had a long-term goal, Joan had a long-term goal and knew how her record should sound. She hadn't learned the craft yet but she knew she was going to. It was new and a bit different for [Warners] to give up control but they could see that times were changing drastically... Mo [Ostin] was an innovative man, he did the same for Hendrix and Van Morrison and Van Dyke Parks in that era, where he let them have pretty much creative control. No one understood the music, there were all these young kids, ... [the major labels] understood that there was a whole new generation and they looked a lot different [from] the generations they had previously been selling music to.'" (10) Joni naively and rightfully saw her future albums as art projects- each one a whole. With the early albums, her palette of colors was word-play and open tunings on acoustic guitar. On the debut album, "Song To A Seagull", Joni plays guitar almost exclusively. The first period I'll call "Early Portraits". The lyrics were largely about personal reflection or portraits of a single person. The characters, like "Nathan LaFraneer", were usually set in isolation, not in interaction. 2. Master Storyteller In the second period, "Master Storyteller", she rendered exquisitely detailed stories and worked with a larger palette of players and layers. Her expanded palette included different instruments, including dulcimer and a fully-exploited piano. The stories were often about love engaged, entangled, dissolving, or disassembled. She included "found" objects like the Burundi warrior drummers. She consciously sought out a jazz-rock band then recruited particular players who had been innovators from Miles Davis's work. The "Master Storyteller" period includes an long, unbroken string of brilliant and innovative albums that no solo Beatle has yet matched. Her collaborators pushed her musically, taking her albums far beyond the beautiful-chick-with-a-guitar clichi to which she is forever bound in the public's eye. 3. Intellect Engaged The third period, "Intellect Engaged", saw her create 'thinking-woman' takes on poverty, famine, AIDS, and the myriad collection of what the modern world considers problems. Joni had come to an uneasy but long-lasting truce with her secrets. She often reflected on irony. Her main collaborator during this period, her long-time husband Larry Klein, brought a cool reserve and technical polish to these albums. These are very much studio creations; she commissioned countless sax solos, and moved them around as desired. This period was characterized by guest vocals from artists who happened to be renting studio time down the hall. As if the "kiln" had cool, each project took longer to "fire" than the last. The third phase drew to a close as the divorce with Larry was happening and Turbulent Indigo was being formed in 1994. Divorce is never easy. Ripe to revisit her own pain, Joni immediately became inspired by a tabloid article and wrote about the societal misery inflicted upon unwed mothers in a bygone era. Kelly/Kilauren was suddenly in the foreground again. 4. In Pain No More The third and fourth eras overlap but they are very different. In my opinion, 'hits' and 'misses' were the beginning of the fourth phase, "In Pain No More". Gone is the studied art work. Previously she revisited canvases over and over again, tweaking and daubing. In contrast, she used the first pun that popped into her head for the image on the cover of her greatest hits collection- a person who has been "hit" by a car. For 'misses', she decided that mooning the viewer was a good way to express her distain for a public who had ignored her bravest work. The photo shoot for both albums was done in one day, as if on a single roll of film. The reckless packaging decisions are certainly a break with the endless polishing of the "Intellect Engaged" phase. The person who worked and reworked the sendup of a self-portrait, "Turbulent Indigo", is not the same person who pasted up deliberately skewed, misshapen letters for her own greatest hits package. In the past she took deliberate pains with sequencing an album but suddenly she chose the cuts for "Misses" in a single day. The perfectionism is gone. Joni delights now in delegating and making decisions quickly. The greatest hits collection helped the press and the public "put a frame around her" so to speak, to see her in the context of artists who have made rich contributions. Joni's career began to get recognition again as an innovator. By September 1996, she had won Billboard Magazine's Century Award, a Grammy for Turbulent Indigo, and was reluctantly inducted into the Rock And Roll Hall of Fame. To steal a line from Shawn Colvin, Joni was "knee deep in accolades". I suggest that something eased inside her. Perhaps more confident than ever, in December 1996, she suddenly granted lots of interviews and talked at length about an old, private topic that was suddenly open for public discussion: Joni was searching for Kelly/Kilauren. Joni was looking to stop running, to right a wrong, to move on, to get past the pain. Next came the album, "Taming The Tiger", and the rapid-fire approach continued. She invented a spirited carnival sound in "Harlem In Havana", swallowed Donald Freed's words for "The Crazy Cries Of Love", and threw a drink in "Lead Balloon". The cohesiveness of the lyrics from the "Master Storyteller" phase has been replaced with broad brush strokes. Taking a scattershot approach to modern ills, Joni took swipes at attorneys, rapists, sunshine, pawnbrokers, and astronauts in a single song, "No Apologies". Ironically, she even insults those who provided reefer in the old days, fearing that "drug lords" are buying up the banks. The old brilliance shone through though. Read as text, this lyric beautifully expresses a new kinship, possibly a reunion. 'This is really something. People will be envious, But our roles aren't clear, So we musn't rush. Still, we're burning brightly, Clinging like fire to fuel. I'm grinning like a fool. Stay in touch. We should stay in touch. Oh! Stay in touch In touch Part of this is permanent. Part of this is passing. So we must be loyal and wary Not to give away too much Till we build a firm foundation.' (11) Joni's secret daughter was revealed to the world in an Associated Press story on March 20, 1997. Perhaps the reunion brought a resolution to the anguish of giving up her daughter, Kelly/Kilauren. Perhaps she was relieved of hiding from her mother. Pain-free, her interest in writing began to wane. Who needs catharsis if you don't have a problem? Joni has often said, "I sing my sorrow and I paint my joy." Here's the proof. Joni decided not to write for the next project. She hired Vince Mendoza to write new arrangements. She even delegated to Larry Klein the joy of picking songs. "Both Sides Now" was a critical success. Still under contract and possibly without the 'fire in her belly' to write new songs, suddenly her first-ever sequel sounded like a good idea. The Internet community is wondering if "the next one in the nest will glitter for [us] so." (12) The audience tapes of the "Both Sides Now" tour clearly show that Vince has cooked up more wonderful arrangements. My personal favorite is the upcoming "Judgement Of The Moon And Stars, (Ludwig's Tune)". Even if she never writes another word, she's given the world so much superlative work that her place in history is assured. Of course, she was not aiming to secure a place in history; she was just working through her pain. Jim L'Hommedieu June 02, 2002 Sources - ------------ 1. "For The Roses", JM 2. "Shadows and Light: The Definitive Biography", Karen O'Brien, Virgin Books Ltd, London 2001, p 24 3. Ibid, p 25 4. King James Bible, Job 1:21 5. "Shadows and Light: The Definitive Biography", p 48 6. Ibid, pp 63-64 7. Ibid, p 67 8. Ibid, p 66 9. Ibid, pp 66-67 10. Ibid, pp 68-69 11. "Stay In Touch", JM 12. "For The Roses", JM 13. "California", JM Thanks to Stephanie Morrison for getting me inspired. Thanks for the research assistance go out to Deb Messling, Brenda of JMDL, Jerry Notaro, Catherine McKay, and Vince Lavieri. As always, thanks to Les Irvin, Jim Johanson, and the late Wally Breese for hosting the articles and discography (consulted but not noted, eh?) at jmdl.com & jonimitchell.com. "Will ya take me as I am? Will ya take me as I am? Will ya? Will ya take me as I am?" (13) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 07:02:25 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: the cover of Hejira was shot in Madison Hey Andrea good job of researching! That was our friend Mary E Pitassi. I think she is aware that the cover was shot there, but I know she'd love to read that article. She's very busy celebrating Christmas in New Orleans right now, however! Merry Christmas! Peace, Susan - --- Aerchak@aol.com wrote: > A few weeks ago or so someone wrote a post about the view from her office > window overlooking the lake in Madison. She also said that she always thought > that the cover/liner photos must have been shot there. Well, I always thought > so too. Joni had appeared there at UW in February, 1976 and Joel Bernstein > was with her. I know because I was in grad school and went to the show. > There's more to the story but I won't go on about that now. Anyway, the > concert wasn't even listed on the "appearances" section of the official > website. I did more research and it was the last concert of that tour, > 2/29/76. So last night I'm reading Shadows and Light (the book) which finally > arrived after purchasing from ebay and there's this whole thing about how > Joel Berstein took those pictures on the lake in Madison. Everybody left and > they stayed on in Madison. They were staying at this hotel on the lake. I > believe it was called The Edgewater but I haven't been back to Madison in 26 > years. So if you were the person that wondered about the cover, that was Joni > skating on your lake and if you know the person who wondered please let me > know so I can email her w/ my whole great story of that Joni in Madison > experience. > > I wish I had a river (but it ended up being a lake) I could skate away on. > Andrea Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 15:08:18 +0000 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Merry Festive Period! (NJC) Well, hey, it's Christmas eve, and I'm preparing to go over to friends for a few days and enjoy the holiday period in the traditional way -- drinking too much, and getting fat(ter). I just wanted to wish you all a very happy holiday period, and hope that you all have a good 2003. Special wishes go out to my JMDL support network, who know who they are, and one or two special people who also know who they are. Raising a glass in everyone's direction, - --Chris Marshall chris@hatstand.org NP: Gemma Hayes, "Back of my hand" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 10:25:32 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: the cover of Hejira was shot in Madison An interesting sidenote, also gleaned from reading "Shadows & Light", was that Bernstein originally wanted that Hejira photo shoot to have been for Blue, the whole "skating away on a river" thing...but Joni wanted the cover & artwork to be as released. So Joel just waited til the moment was right, got his photos, and used them Hejira. They work just as good imo. Bob NP: Sheryl Crow, "a change would do you good" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 15:55:26 +0000 From: colin Subject: joke njc i heard an offensive sick little joke yesterday told by my friend's daughter. but as it involved the Irish, the disabled, babies and knitting, I couldn't possibly share it. I think such jokes are oppressive and do nothing to encourage world peace, as well as serving only to degrade and belittle the human race. This is exactly what i told my friend's daughter too. once I had stopped laughing. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 08:32:50 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Merry Festive Period! (NJC) > I just wanted to wish you all a very happy holiday period, > and hope that you all have a good 2003. Chris, how sweet of you to think of the women here! ; ) > Raising a glass in everyone's direction, Back at'cha! Lori, who won't attempt to join Mensa because it reminds her of ... well, you know ... ~ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 17:41:08 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Prepare, njc Mike wrote: Question: What made these people in Lebanon decide > to launch suicide attacks? Whim? Folly? High spirits? Or perhaps a reaction to > earlier events? Maybe we should look at these events before making such a > statement. Perhaps a good place to look for anti-Islam acts is the career of > Ariel Sharon, a veteran of over 50 years of atrocities against the Palestine > people. Yes, The same Ariel Sharon who George Bush calls 'a man of peace'. > Check the records, it's all there. As a journalist you must know this. > First, let me wish a warm welcome to Sarah who recently joined the list. She appears to have a broader historical culture than a great number of journalists, at least the french ones I read. So, she made a blunder about Islam vs human rights. Well who doesn't? FYI, Senegal is a muslim country where, according to a Senegalese friend, there are no human rights violation and women are rising up the social ladder. The only drawback is of course excision which is hard to eradicate. Regarding Mike's comment: we had this discussion before, and we'll probably have it again. Just like Azeem and Sarah, I'm leaving for vacation tomorrow so I'll make it short. Mike, I assume (I could be wrong) you're referring to Lebanese attacks after Israel invaded Lebanon. Then I will use the same argument you're using: what prompted Israel to invade Lebanon? Whim? Folly? Or perhaps it's the same leftist theory that Israel wants to invade and annex the entire area? Well no matter how long this lie is being repeated in the media worldwide, I cannot understand how a tiny country of 5 million jews that control 1% of the middle east area would even dream of winning a war against 200 million surrounding arabs? One would have to be crazy to even think of engaging in such an aggression. Simply put, Israel is trying to survive, not expand. Territorial encroachments are for security reasons (eg Kibboutz in northern Israel being shelled daily). Your 2nd point is about Sharon. Again, there is a tendency to put all the blame on him. The issue for me isn't Sharon. The issue is that arabs wanted the entire area for themselves from day minus 1: arab armies attacked Israel as it was a few hours old in 1948. Sharon didn't start the 2nd intifada all by himself. In fact it started before him and was a premedidated and planned action. Sharon was elected as a result of the intifada, not as a cause. Going back in history: there were suicide bombings after Oslo too, in fact terrorists attacks against jews have never stopped regardless of who was Israel's pm and whatever the concessions he's made. Who can explain to me why the arabs were getting ready to attack Israel in 67 when Jerusalem and the so-called "occupied territories" were Jordanian? What were they trying to free up then? No, the rhetoric has changed over the decades, it has become more clever, but the same hate still prevails. Merry X-mas to all and see ya next year. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 18:19:39 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: RE: prepare NJC >>Mike wrote: Question: What made these people in Lebanon decide to launch suicide attacks? Whim? Folly? High spirits? Or perhaps a reaction to earlier events? Maybe we should look at these events before making such a statement.<< Laurent replies: >> Mike, I assume (I could be wrong) you're referring to Lebanese attacks after Israel invaded Lebanon. Then I will use the same argument you're using: what prompted Israel to invade Lebanon? Whim? Folly?<< I was speaking in general about Sarah's comment that "the war (Islam versus the West) began in the 80s with the first suicide attacks in Lebanon", and I was not trying to say that the other side started it, only that it goes back a long way, as you well know, and it is tremendously difficult, if not impossible, to say 'who shot first'. I mentioned Lebanon because it was a direct quote from Sarah, no more reason than that. Laurent: >>Or perhaps it's the same leftist theory that Israel wants to invade and annex the entire area?<< Mike says This is not a leftist theory. Laurent: >>Well no matter how long this lie is being repeated in the media worldwide, I cannot understand how a tiny country of 5 million jews that control 1% of the middle east area would even dream of winning a war against 200 million surrounding arabs? One would have to be crazy to even think of engaging in such an aggression.<< Mike says Unless one had very powerful friends and one of the best-equipped and trained fighting forces on the planet. And regarding lies in the worldwide media, tell me please who distorts the news from the middle east the most. We disagree on this but I sent a lot of information on this off-list and have yet to see a reply. Can you not accept that the Israeli propaganda machine is infinitely superior to anything that the Palestine side could manage? Laurent said: >> Simply put, Israel is trying to survive, not expand. Territorial encroachments are for security reasons (eg Kibboutz in northern Israel being shelled daily).<< Mike says I simply do not believe this. I sent you evidence to disprove this, evidence based on the memoirs of such 'lefties' as Ben-Gurion and Yitzhak Rabin. 'Territorial encroachments', a lovely euphemism, are for wholly different reasons. Laurent said: >> No, the rhetoric has changed over the decades, it has become more clever, but the same hate still prevails.<< Mike says The rhetoric on both sides has indeed become more clever but you see only one side of it, as I imagine you would say about me. In my heart I have no hate for anyone and I imagine that you were not referring to me personally. I am engaged in an investigation to try to see what really happened here and what's really happening now. I know this is difficult and I will try to see all sides but what I have read has informed me, to a small extent compared to you, Laurent, I am sure, but please do not attribute hate to my motives. I do not attribute hate to yours, and in fact I wish you a very happy xmas too. Talk to you in the new year, Regards, Mike. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 09:34:37 -0800 (PST) From: Alison E Subject: Re: merry everything!!!!! NJC Hello all, Just throwing out my wishes for love and peace and hope to all of you during this holiday season. i finally got slugged by the spirit of the season last night as i was planning to cook the first christmas dinner for my landlord...i mean boyfriend... ;-) so that got me all sentimental and stuff. just me and he, so i'm making a little turkey and stuffing and potatoes and hey, why not a couple of pies, too? i haven't been around as much as i would like to, but i have been trying to keep up with posts as i can. a belated happy birthday to colin, a dear, dear man, and garret, who i've not met but who is spoken of very kindly by the jmdlers across the pond who know him. anyone else i missed happy birthday to you as well! sorry about the late nature of my greetings! in any case, because we never say it enough and because it is the season... i love you all so much, and wish that we could all be together more frequently than once a year! i hope the new year finds you all well, your families healthy and happy, and the world a more peaceful place. merry christmas, happy hannukah, fruitful kwaanzaa, and so on. love and hugs, alison e. in slc np: river, on radio paradise. - --- wrote: > > thinking of my dear friends all over the world, > > > > > > wallyK Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 12:47:48 -0500 From: "chuty001" Subject: Re: Of Interest to Old Hippies (NJC) > Joe Strummer of the Clash died yesterday too. It pleases me that somebody else took note of this. I got the news early yesterday morning and have been in a daze ever since. I met with Joe in coranation park this summer. We had a cigarette and discussed a few things but I had to run and cut him off. Wish I had of stayed. He was a good man. Chuck ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 12:55:19 -0500 From: "chuty001" Subject: Re: joke njc Colin darling you have an offensive sick little joke and you didn't share it with me. Come on don't tease me like that it's Christmas. Mail it to me Please please please. Chuck - ----- Original Message ----- From: "colin" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 10:55 AM Subject: joke njc > i heard an offensive sick little joke yesterday told by my friend's > daughter. > but as it involved the Irish, the disabled, babies and knitting, I > couldn't possibly share it. I think such jokes are oppressive and do > nothing to encourage world peace, as well as serving only to degrade and > belittle the human race. > > This is exactly what i told my friend's daughter too. once I had stopped > laughing. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 12:59:15 -0500 From: "chuty001" Subject: Merry Christmas Every one NJC A Merry Christmas to all wishing you the best. Chuck ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 14:57:08 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: joke njc i want to hear too, but only for anthropological purposes, of course. wallyK - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de chuty001 Enviado el: Martes, 24 de Diciembre de 2002 02:55 p.m. Para: joni@smoe.org Asunto: Re: joke njc Colin darling you have an offensive sick little joke and you didn't share it with me. Come on don't tease me like that it's Christmas. Mail it to me Please please please. Chuck ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 10:00:25 -0800 (PST) From: Alison E Subject: re: John gorka NJC maggsie! if you don't have "jack's crows", this MUST BE THE ONE that makes your wish list! i hope i am not too late! as a devoted follower of john g, (i even stalked him for a time! it was boring. never stalk a folksinger, they don't do anything! i'm kidding!). it is one of the best albums ever created! I'M SERIOUS! it's an all time favorite of mine. also, temporary road is a very good one, as is his new one, the company you keep. and have a merry christmas! love to you and brei. alison e. in slc Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 13:05:38 -0500 From: "chuty001" Subject: Canadian punk I posted earlier this week about SNFU doing a song about listening to Mitchell and asked if anybody had heard it. No reply. So if anyone is actually interested in hearing a Canadian punk band acknowledge Joni let me know and I'll see about getting it up to my site. Chuck ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 13:29:56 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Canadian punk NJC In a message dated 12/24/2002 1:05:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, chuty001@hotmail.com writes: > No reply. So if anyone is actually > interested in hearing a Canadian punk band acknowledge Joni > let me know and > I'll see about getting it up to my site. Hi Chuck...I've heard of that track from "Something Leafy This Way Comes", but I've never actually heard the track. I'd appreciate hearing it if you can post it. Bob NP: Sheryl Crow, "Steve McQueen" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 13:39:50 -0500 From: "Erica L. Trudelle" Subject: Re: joke njc awwwww come on!!! You big tease! who could ever be offended here??:) I promise not to be.... Erica From: colin Reply-To: colin To: joni@smoe.org Subject: joke njc Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 15:55:26 +0000 i heard an offensive sick little joke yesterday told by my friend's daughter. but as it involved the Irish, the disabled, babies and knitting, I couldn't possibly share it. I think such jokes are oppressive and do nothing to encourage world peace, as well as serving only to degrade and belittle the human race. This is exactly what i told my friend's daughter too. once I had stopped laughing. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_smartspamprotection_3mf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 13:25:36 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Prepare, njc Laurent, thanks for the welcome to the list and for the example of Senegal, which I hadn't thought of. You're right - the government does support parliamentary democracy and human rights, and there is universal franchise. Women do still have a tough time though: poor access to education, female genital mutilation, no legal access to their husband's property, and abortion is illegal. But even so, it's a lot better than any of the examples I gave earlier. Hope you have a great holiday! Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Jan 1980 21:38:53 -0800 From: Tara Lindsay Subject: Elvis Costello on Travelogue Hi and Merry Christmas, I can't add anything to the Travelogue debate till Santa comes with my copy. I heard Just Like This Train and Last Time I Saw Richard on the radio show that Elvis Costello and John Kelly do together here in Dublin,Ireland. Elvis Costello was in a real Joni mood and expressed a lot of love for Travelogue and For The Roses. He also played Lesson In Survival from For The Roses and A Case Of You by Diana Krall. I always try to listen when Costello is on. Such an interesting man. He points out little things in the music that only a musician would notice, Tara. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 13:58:36 -0800 From: "gene mock" Subject: NJC NJC for all you animal lovers and for those who aren't. - ----- Original Message -----=20 From: gene mock=20 To: Biblettuce1@cs.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 1:51 PM Subject: Fw: ALONE IN THE HOUSE thought you might enjoy this. gene Subject: Fw: ALONE IN THE HOUSE - ----- Original Message -----=20 From: b.k.reed=20 To: carole harris ; Bob Reed ; beth reed=20 Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 5:41 PM Subject: Fw: ALONE IN THE HOUSE Subject: Fw: ALONE IN THE HOUSE They were together in the House. = =20 = =20 Just the two of them. It was a cold, dark, stormy night. The storm had come = quickly and =20 each time the thunder boomed he watched her jump.=20 She looked across the room and admired his strong = appearance...and wished that he would take her in his arms, comfort her and = protect her=20 from the storm.=20 She wanted that...more than anything. ..Suddenly, with a pop, the power went out. She screamed... He raced to the sofa where she was cowering.=20 He didn't hesitate to pull her into his arms.=20 He knew this was a forbidden union and=20 expected her to pull back. He was surprised when she didn't resist but instead clung to = him. The storm raged on...as did their growing passion. And there came a moment when each knew that they had to be = together. They knew it was wrong... Their families would never understand... So consumed were they in their passion that they heard no opening of doors...just the faint click of a camera...... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> > =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/gif] [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/jpeg] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 18:15:12 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: CAS to Mingus Mike P wrote > There are people who like the > CAS to Mingus streak as her finest work. I would put myself in this last > group. I find that interesting in two respects, Mike. First, I went over 20 years (from 1975 - late mid 1990's) having essentially abandoned Joni's work after C&S. I knew she was going places I could not handle at that time (I believe I was not alone among Joni's early fans), and I suspected that it was "all my fault". For all 20 years, she remained my #1 solely on the basis of her first 6 albums. I suspected that she was not as good at what I saw as the "jazzy" stuff as she was at her earlier "folky/classic/pop" blends - how could she be the best at both ? - but I had a lot of admiration for her, so I could not be certain. Anyway, I bought and eventually rejected (i.e., failed to get into) THOSL, Hejira, WTRF and DED. After DED, I stopped listening altogether to the post-C&S stuff for at least 10 years. Then, I picked up TI and NRH, liked them a lot, and proceeded backward in time. Eventually, I fell in love with the whole period you cite (except Mingus - which I now know is still my fault - though I was listening to and loving TWTLIL yesterday). Did you hear those albums first - i.e., before hear earlier work? How did you come to like them - quickly, or after many listens ? How do your tastes in music run, outside of Joni ? My "feel" here is that some people (like you ?) are more intuitive, natural and perhaps more sophisticated listeners and appreciators than others (like myself), who need to work at listening to more complex stuff, until we have absorbed it analytically, which then frees us up to listen to it aesthetically and emotionally. Anyway, I ramble sometimes. Second, I find it interesting that C&S was the first in your "magic" string, and the last in my original magic string. It made both our lists. This reinforces for me that C&S was really her transitional album. Maybe it was all of those non-tonic bass chords (put to more use than in earlier albums). And, IMO, C&S got "jazzier" even within itself - with the earlier cuts more accessible on balance, and the later ones taking more time for me to warm up to. And the band, too, was a change, by and large. Ironically, her transitional album proved to be her most popular - she passed through the plane of mass appeal briefly on her otherwise largely off-plane journey to the top of the mountain. Hmmm. Bob S ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 14:38:59 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Merry Christmas and happy holidays (njc) Merry Christmas and warm holiday wishes to everyone. Thanks to you who give so much of the tangible (CDs, candy and other goodies) and intangible (love, friendship, comfort, insight, wit, wisdom and hilarity ;-) throughout each year. Love, holly & mistletoe, Kakki NP: The Nearness of You - Norah Jones live at House of Blues 4/16/02 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 16:58:15 -0800 From: "gene mock" Subject: Fw: NJC NJC for all you animal lovers and for those who aren't. merry christmas people. if this doesn't get sent correctly i had good = intentions. take care and a safe holiday. gene - ----- Original Message -----=20 From: gene mock=20 To: gene mock=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 4:51 PM Subject: Fw: NJC NJC for all you animal lovers and for those who aren't. - ----- Original Message -----=20 From: gene mock=20 To: joni=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 1:58 PM Subject: NJC NJC for all you animal lovers and for those who aren't. - ----- Original Message -----=20 From: gene mock=20 To: Biblettuce1@cs.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 1:51 PM Subject: Fw: ALONE IN THE HOUSE thought you might enjoy this. gene Subject: Fw: ALONE IN THE HOUSE - ----- Original Message -----=20 From: b.k.reed=20 To: carole harris ; Bob Reed ; beth reed=20 Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 5:41 PM Subject: Fw: ALONE IN THE HOUSE Subject: Fw: ALONE IN THE HOUSE They were together in the House. = =20 = =20 Just the two of them. It was a cold, dark, stormy night. The storm had come = quickly and =20 each time the thunder boomed he watched her jump.=20 She looked across the room and admired his strong = appearance...and wished that he would take her in his arms, comfort her and = protect her=20 from the storm.=20 She wanted that...more than anything. ..Suddenly, with a pop, the power went out. She screamed... He raced to the sofa where she was cowering.=20 He didn't hesitate to pull her into his arms.=20 He knew this was a forbidden union and=20 expected her to pull back. He was surprised when she didn't resist but instead clung to = him. The storm raged on...as did their growing passion. And there came a moment when each knew that they had to be = together. They knew it was wrong... Their families would never understand... So consumed were they in their passion that they heard no opening of doors...just the faint click of a camera...... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> > =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/gif] [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/jpeg] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 23:06:57 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Last Travelogue Track/Circle Game question [NJC] A Jedi master once wrote: "part of this is permenant. part of this is passing." Richard Goldman asked: >>>>>>>>> on disc two, The Circle Game, on Travelogue, and... at the end...it kept looping and looping, playing over and over: "and go round and round and round in the circle game". Over and over. Endlessly. Until I stopped the player. So I thought: "huh, wow!" and took the disc out and went over to a friend's. But ... it only did it that once. It did not do it over at my friends later on, and...it won't do it again on my CD player. Hello? Did I just have a major hallucination? or ... is this some sort of cosmic trick!? ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #586 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)