From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #583 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, December 23 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 583 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: The New Orleans Report (VLJC) [Mags N Brei ] Re: The New Orleans Report (NJC) [RoseMJoy@aol.com] NJC.....December 23rd [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: 'prepare" njc [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: NJC.....December 23rd [Catherine McKay ] john gorka njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: 'prepare' njc [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: 'prepare' njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: 'prepare' njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: 'prepare' njc [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: john gorka njc [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: 'prepare" njc [AzeemAK@aol.com] RE: john gorka njc ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: 'prepare' njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Sire of Sorrow [cul heath ] Re: 'prepare' njc [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: 'prepare' njc ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] njc to colin and randy remote [cul heath ] Re: NJC.....December 23rd [Mags N Brei ] Re: 'prepare' njc [colin ] Re: 'prepare" njc [colin ] Re: 'prepare' njc [colin ] :PS 'prepare' njc [colin ] Re: Sire of Sorrow [colin ] Re: Mr Kratzman on Joni, njc now ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: Discussion List? ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: 'prepare' njc [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: 'prepare" njc [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: 'prepare" njc [sl.m@shaw.ca] Court and Spark Question [Shnootre@aol.com] Top ten from LA Times (njc) ["kakki" ] Re: Court and Spark Question [KJHSF@aol.com] Today's Library Links: December 23 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Today in History: December 23 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] RE: NJC.....December 23rd ["Wally Kairuz" ] yet another december 23rd-er njc ["Wally Kairuz" Subject: Re: The New Orleans Report (VLJC) well Michael, if your plan was to make us all blubber by the end of this beautiful heartfelt post of your, congratulations. collectively we cry in our liittle home n woodbury nj. bring on the tissues man. waaaaaaa. blessings of the season to you and yours Michael and give Christina, Jack, and Mary when you see her tomorrow a big warm hug from Brian and I. We are thrilled beyond thrilled for the success of all of you. Michael, we received the PazFest CD recently as a gift and it is everything you've said it is and more. For the first time Brian and I get to be together in our home for the holidays...(he's not going anywhere and neither am i..and my futon is still in his livingroom .. the standing joke between us...anyway ..we/ve been celebrating holidays since the first night of the festival of the lights which began November 29th. Sad to say that I am away from my other family who are still in Canada and it's not easy being away from one in particular so maybe you could all send thoughts and love and light and prayers and all good things to my daughter Mimi. Id appreciate that so much. love, mags. and brian too. xoxoxoxoxo You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 18:46:28 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: The New Orleans Report (NJC) In a message dated 12/22/02 6:00:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, michaelpazz@directvinternet.com writes: > Welcome back Rosalita > (altho you never really left me!!!!) ATTENTION!!!!! I NEED 2 BRU-U-CE GA'S FOR THE PIT IN ATLANTIC CITY FOR MARCH 7TH!!!!!! They haven't gone on sale yet. Don't feckin leave me out in the cold for this one Paz. I'm way too jealous that Muller did the PIT and I didn't. LMAO love, Rosie in NJ putting up the Xmas stockings ;0) PS: GA stands for General Admission ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 19:05:09 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: NJC.....December 23rd The old-ex-DBF doesn't remember many jmdler's birthdays, but this one I do. He probably just woke up "in the land down under", so good morning and a happy happy birthday to my favorite Aussie mate. Happy Birthday John Low in Sydney! You're truly a GREAT man (and teddy bear). Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 18:28:44 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: 'prepare" njc My own opinion, Colin, is that we're already in deep shit and that the war (Islam versus the West) began in the 80s with the first suicide attacks in Lebanon, and the rise of the Moslem Brotherhood, and it has just taken a while to make itself felt around the world. I also believe it'll get worse whether US-UK attacks Saddam or not, but probably won't be so bad if he's deposed, because then at least there's a chance that Iraq will develop into a democratic Arab nation, and that others will be inspired and will also try to liberalise (e.g. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Syria, Jordan, Libya). It will take decades, but getting rid of Saddam could kickstart it. I think the military plan is to destroy infrastructure, not people, and to invade Baghdad within days (within 2 days, they're saying) of the war beginning. And then I think the assumption and hope is that the Iraqi people will joyfully surrender, and Saddam and his clansmen will flee the country, probably to Libya. Gadaffi has already said he'll give Saddam's family sanctuary. People say this will make America hated even more within the Arab world, but I don't agree. Saddam is loathed almost universally. He has no support among Islamists, and very little elsewhere - some support in Jordan, some in Palestine, but really it is minimal. People know what he's like. Sarah Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 23:26:32 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: 'prepare' njc I ahev no objection to Saddam himself being killed. i think it is okay to kill a person if by doing so one saves the lives of many others. HOWEVER< i don't think that is what is going to haopen here. i think many people will be killed and that this war will spread all over the world. I think we are in deep shit in other words. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 19:34:07 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: NJC.....December 23rd --- FMYFL@aol.com wrote: > The old-ex-DBF doesn't remember many jmdler's > birthdays, but this one I do. > He probably just woke up "in the land down under", > so good morning and a > happy happy birthday to my favorite Aussie mate. > > Happy Birthday John Low in Sydney! You're truly a > GREAT man (and teddy > bear). I'll second that emotion. John was one of the first people to welcome me to the jmdl when I joined about three years or so ago. He's a true gentleman - and a scholar. It doesn't get much better than that. Have a great day, John. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 16:17:13 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: john gorka njc I decided to post these lyrics but really you have to hear the beautiful music & his soul stirring voice singing them...the lyrics were written by a nurse who i think took care of soldiers but i can't recall which war or how john came by these lyrics...anyway he set them to music & as i mentioned, the song is on his latest release, The Company You Keep... Let Them In Let them in, Peter, they are very tired Give them couches where the angels sleep and light those fires Let them wake whole again, to brand new dawns Fired with the sun, not wartime's bloody guns May their peace be deep, remember where the broken bodies lie God knows how young they were, to have to die God knows how young they were, to have to die Give them things they like, let them make some noise Give roadhouse bands, not golden harps, to these our boys And let them love, Peter, 'cause they've had no time They should have trees and birds' songs and hills to climb A taste of summer in a ripened pear and girls sweet as meadow winds with flowing hair Tell them how they are missed and say not to fear It's gonna be alright with us down here ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 18:43:09 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: 'prepare' njc Hi Kate, I wonder - is this courageous? We wouldn't regard people who volunteered to be human shields for Adolf Hitler as courageous, even if the intent was to protect the German people, not Hitler himself. We'd still think they were, at best, naive, and at worst, fascists. I'm surprised at people on the left who oppose this war. It seems to me this is a just war, and a necessary one. It's hard to imagine what the alternative would be, other than to do nothing and leave Saddam in power. But the Iraqi people have suffered so long at Saddam's hands - they deserve and need to be liberated and I don't see how anything but an invasion will do that. I've never been someone who would support the Republican party, and I remember holding my head in my hands on September 11 when I saw the second plane fly into the WTC, when it became clear it was a terrorist attack and not an accident, moaning: "oh no, George Bush is president. He'll start the third world war over this." But in fact, I have to say I think his responses have been measured and justified, apart from the loss of civil liberties in the U.S. Getting rid of the Taliban was long overdue anyway, and it's a shame that their war on women wasn't reason enough to attack them. Similarly, although Iraq is better for women than Afghanistan was, it's still a disgrace. Your husband is allowed to kill you if he even suspects adultery. Sarah Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 11:42:56 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: 'prepare' njc there is a group called www.becomethechange.org that is organizing a human shield to go to iraq in january to try & prevent an attack by the usa....they need 5,000 people...very courageous ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 19:49:15 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: 'prepare' njc --- sl.m@shaw.ca wrote: > Hi Kate, > It seems to > me this is a just war, and a necessary one. It's > hard to imagine > what the alternative would be, other than to do > nothing and leave > Saddam in power. But the Iraqi people have suffered > so long at > Saddam's hands - they deserve and need to be > liberated and I don't > see how anything but an invasion will do that. Call me naive, but I can't understand how a group such as the CIA can't get in there and assassinate the bastard. Have I seen too many movies along the lines of Mission Impossible and Spy Game? OK, so Saddam apparently has a bunch of lookalikes running around the country pretending to be him. So they could knock them all off - I don't imagine they're Joe NiceGuy if they're in on this weird game and it's better than bombing the crap out of kids and innocent people who have done nothing to us apart from being born in the "wrong" country. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 19:49:15 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: 'prepare' njc --- sl.m@shaw.ca wrote: > Hi Kate, > It seems to > me this is a just war, and a necessary one. It's > hard to imagine > what the alternative would be, other than to do > nothing and leave > Saddam in power. But the Iraqi people have suffered > so long at > Saddam's hands - they deserve and need to be > liberated and I don't > see how anything but an invasion will do that. Call me naive, but I can't understand how a group such as the CIA can't get in there and assassinate the bastard. Have I seen too many movies along the lines of Mission Impossible and Spy Game? OK, so Saddam apparently has a bunch of lookalikes running around the country pretending to be him. So they could knock them all off - I don't imagine they're Joe NiceGuy if they're in on this weird game and it's better than bombing the crap out of kids and innocent people who have done nothing to us apart from being born in the "wrong" country. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 19:11:18 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: 'prepare' njc Catherine, I believe there have been many attempts, but he keeps himself so hidden. And it's not just Saddam who needs to go -it's the whole extended family, and there are scores of them. If Saddam himself were to die, then one of his sons would take over, and they are - hard to believe - even worse than him. Saddam "trained" his elder son Uday to become a psychopath by acquiring a sheep for him around age 10 and teaching him how to kill it as slowly as possible by disemboweling it. For his coming of age party, Uday was allowed to shoot a political prisoner. He now has his own torture chamber. Even Saddam got so angry with him once that he shot his own son. This was after Uday had strangled Saddam's food taster with his bare hands. . . The best that can be said about that family is that they're insane. Sarah At 7:49 PM -0500 12/22/2002, Catherine McKay wrote: >Call me naive, but I can't understand how a group such >as the CIA can't get in there and assassinate the >bastard. Have I seen too many movies along the lines >of Mission Impossible and Spy Game? OK, so Saddam >apparently has a bunch of lookalikes running around >the country pretending to be him. So they could knock >them all off - I don't imagine they're Joe NiceGuy if >they're in on this weird game and it's better than >bombing the crap out of kids and innocent people who >have done nothing to us apart from being born in the >"wrong" country. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 20:12:43 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: john gorka njc Here's one of my faves....... "Houses In The Fields" by John Gorka 1991 They're growing houses in the fields between the towns, And the Starlight Drive-In movie's closing down, The road is gone to the way it was before, And the spaces won't be spaces anymore. Two more farms were broken by the drought, First the Wagners now the Fullers pulling out, Developers paid better than the corn, But this was not the place where they were born. (CHORUS) There's houses in the fields, no prayers for steady rain this year, Houses in the fields, there's houses in the fields, The last few farms are growing out of here. At first he wouldn't sell and then he would, Now there'll be children playing where the silos stood, The word came from the marrow of his bones, It was the last sure way to pay off all the loans. The new streets will be named for kings and queens, And a ransom will be paid for every castle's dream, The model sign is crested with a lion, And the farmers they will have enough to die on. (CHORUS) Oh, I guess no one should be afraid of change, But tell me why is there a fence for every open range? It's a sign I'm getting on in years, When nothing new is welcome to these eyes and ears. (CHORUS) They're growing houses in the fields between the towns, And the Starlight Drive-In movie is all closed down, The road is gone to the way it was before, And the spaces won't be spaces anymore, No, the spaces won't be spaces anymore. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 20:15:38 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: 'prepare" njc In a message dated 23/12/2002 00:26:18 GMT Standard Time, sl.m@shaw.ca writes: << People say this will make America hated even more within the Arab world, but I don't agree. Saddam is loathed almost universally. He has no support among Islamists, and very little elsewhere - some support in Jordan, some in Palestine, but really it is minimal. People know what he's like. >> This may be true, and it is largely irrelevant. Does anyone believe that bombing a beleaguered country, causing the death of who knows how many civilians, is a way of raising the popularity of "The West" among people in Muslim countries? What if Saddam Hussein isn't killed or deposed (after all he wasn't last time)? How long does the bombing have to continue? When will be enough? Does anyone have any good information as to what a post-Saddam regime might look like? Anyone fancy Saddam's son Uday as the next head of state? Thought not. And as to the idea that deposing Iraq's dictator would inspire people in other nations to rise up and throw off their chains, that is simply laughable. I don't claim to have the answer; my contention is that bombing Iraq isn't it. One suggestion is that we stop selling arms to countries like Iraq. It won't help the situation in Iraq now, but it might help in the future. Then again, that wouldn't ensure votes any time soon, so that's not gonna happen, is it? The UK's economy relies to a very depressing extent on the so-called defence industry. And people in that line of business are very good at denial about the consequences of what they do (and I'm not talking completely out of my hat here, I know someone very well who used to work in the arms trade until very recently). Oh, and the best suggestion I heard about trying to get a good inventory of Iraq's "weapons of mass destruction" (why don't we use that term about our own weapons) was to check our own records - after all, The West sold most of them to Saddam. That's enough politics from me. Time to get back to slagging off Travelogue... Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 16:58:44 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: john gorka njc brilliant song! & welcome back rose! ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 16:58:42 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: 'prepare' njc yes, i do consider this to be very courageous...to put one's beliefs into actions...i do not consider this idea to be either naive or facist... the purpose of the human shield is not to protect a leader who we all agree should be stopped but to try & stop a war that many do not believe is wise or justified... if we attacked iraq it would be the first time the USA has ever attacked another country, unprovoked...that in itself is alarming...in addition, before we send our children over to fight a war in iraq, i would like some real facts as to why this is neccessary & why this must happen now... >>Hi Kate, I wonder - is this courageous? We wouldn't regard people who volunteered to be human shields for Adolf Hitler as courageous, even if the intent was to protect the German people, not Hitler himself. We'd still think they were, at best, naive, and at worst, fascists. I'm surprised at people on the left who oppose this war. It seems to me this is a just war, and a necessary one.<< ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 17:46:20 -0800 From: cul heath Subject: Sire of Sorrow Wow...I spent a day driving around town in the rain while Joni's Sire of Sorrow from Indigo played itself over and over in my head. I had no idea what prompted it but by the time I got home I went straight to the keyboards and without ever having played before or even having looked at any transcription of it, I just started playing in Am ... I sang "let me speak..." and the whole thing just flowed out of me as though it were something I had written and didn't even have to think about. I just empathized the emotions and it carried me along. What a treat! Anyone else ever have Joni's music possess them like that. Just curious. cul heath ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 20:55:19 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: 'prepare' njc In a message dated 23/12/2002 00:41:05 GMT Standard Time, sl.m@shaw.ca writes: << I'm surprised at people on the left who oppose this war. It seems to me this is a just war, and a necessary one. >> I couldn't disagree more, Sarah. There is no evidence whatsoever that Iraq poses a threat to the USA or the UK. They had nothing to do with the September 11th attacks and there is precious little evidence that there is any Al Qaeda presence in Iraq. This does not, of course, mean that Iraq does not have the potential to cause a lot of trouble in the surrounding countries. However, this is NOT a justification for war. << Getting rid of the Taliban was long overdue anyway, and it's a shame that their war on women wasn't reason enough to attack them. >> Are you serious? Because a government does objectionable things, we declare war on them? Let's declare on Saudia Arabia - their record on women's rights is awful, not to mention on human rights in general. Mauritania still executes people by burying them in sand up to their necks and stoning them to death. Let's invade Mauritania, perhaps? Russia is prosecuting a brutal campaign in Chechnya - where do I sign up? USA is putting to death people who are mentally ill and who were under the age of majority when they committed their crimes - push the button! OK, I'm pushing this ad absurdem - but where do you draw the line? I don't think the USA, UK or any other country has any right to go bombing other countries because we don't think much of what they do - especially when there is a good reason to suspect that there is an undeclared agenda. Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 20:55:53 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Re: 'prepare' njc Okay. But what is this group doing to keep Iraq from running over the Kurds again? Or Iran again? It must be an anti-USA thing or a pro-Iraq thing cause keeping us (USA) out won't help Iran or the Kurds. (?) Lama Kate said, >>>>> there is a group called www.becomethechange.org that is organizing a human shield to go to iraq in january to try & prevent an attack by the usa....they need 5,000 people...very courageous ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 18:16:02 -0800 From: cul heath Subject: njc to colin and randy remote You have no idea how great it is to witness your dialogue on the antics of Boy Wonder and his Power Rangers. I use my weblog called ratboy's anvil (http://www.supernovajuice.com/cul/) as a fliter all the time for those news items that are censored out of the commercially based media. "they're gonna slam free choice behind us" was never truer than what is going on right now... and as an expat yank in canada, I am sickened both by the weak transparent crap the American public is willing to swallow from these guys and by the sheer cluelessness of what is going on in the world around them. sad sad sad... anyway thanx to both of you for being conscious :) cul ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 18:34:25 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: NJC.....December 23rd happy birthday John!!! love, MagsnBrei xo FMYFL@aol.com wrote:The old-ex-DBF doesn't remember many jmdler's birthdays, but this one I do. He probably just woke up "in the land down under", so good morning and a happy happy birthday to my favorite Aussie mate. Happy Birthday John Low in Sydney! You're truly a GREAT man (and teddy bear). Jimmy You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 03:06:56 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: 'prepare' njc sl.m@shaw.ca wrote: > Hi Kate, > > I wonder - is this courageous? one: Bush doesn't give ashit about the Iraqi people. two. how does killing the Iraqi help the Iraqi people? three: I think it is naive to think this war is just or about justice. and if you are going to bring up people's treatment of other people you need llook no furthere than your country. what civilised country executes the mentally retarted? I am sure you don't wnat any killing but to support killing is still a moral choice, still something you willbe responsible for. Kill Hussein by all means. but don't bomb and kill the Iraqi people. There is pleanty wrong with Britian and the USA so we ought to be less judgemental about others. our hands are just as bloody. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 03:12:20 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: 'prepare" njc > (Islam versus the West) it is just this sort of ignorant statement that makes me feel despair. the media do their job very well and we the people just lap it up. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 03:15:34 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: 'prepare' njc since Iran is one of the countries that Bush calls the axis of evil, do you think he gives a shit? It is simpler for some Americns to think that those that oppose the war are aniti American. It makes them feel righteous and prevents them looking in the mirror. Jim L'Hommedieu (Lama) wrote: >Okay. But what is this group doing to keep Iraq from running over the Kurds >again? Or Iran again? It must be an anti-USA thing or a pro-Iraq thing >cause keeping us (USA) out won't help Iran or the Kurds. (?) > >Lama > >Kate said, > > >there is a group called www.becomethechange.org that is organizing a human >shield to go to iraq in january to try & prevent an attack by the >usa....they need 5,000 people...very courageous ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 03:16:40 +0000 From: colin Subject: :PS 'prepare' njc PS oh an we must be anti Biritish too because we want the war too! Jim L'Hommedieu (Lama) wrote: >Okay. But what is this group doing to keep Iraq from running over the Kurds >again? Or Iran again? It must be an anti-USA thing or a pro-Iraq thing >cause keeping us (USA) out won't help Iran or the Kurds. (?) > >Lama > >Kate said, > > >there is a group called www.becomethechange.org that is organizing a human >shield to go to iraq in january to try & prevent an attack by the >usa....they need 5,000 people...very courageous ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 03:19:47 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Sire of Sorrow >Anyone else ever have Joni's music possess them like that. > can't say i have but I bet there are few here who wish Joni would possess them. you know, the zealots and joni pod people. for a more serious response, I find it thrilling that this happened to you. Not because it was Joni but because soemthing major happened within you which i find fascinating. > >cul heath ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 20:23:56 -0800 (PST) From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Mr Kratzman on Joni, njc now Ditto. I really enjoyed that article, Les. It's as if you gave it to us "for Christmas". Lama Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 21:18:43 -0800 (PST) From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Discussion List? Typical, Catherine! This is exactly the kind of response one would EXPECT from a duck-down, two-layer Gore-Tex Squall parka with a waterproof and very breathable nylon laminate. (Available now from www.rei-outdoor.com) Lama I am cracking myself up so it must be time to go to bed..... - --- Catherine McKay wrote: > Welcome to the list. I think. What is a close-minded > anorak? > I didn't realize they could have minds, closed or > otherwise. Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 23:45:09 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: 'prepare' njc Azeem, were you opposed to the West's intervention in Bosnia? Most of the Left, in Europe anyway, were angry that the West took so long to intervene there, and the argument was that it was because "only" Moslems were being killed, and the West's failure to act faster was in part racist etc. Yet the Taliban waged a brutal war against women for years, and you're saying that wasn't justification for intervention? These women had no possible way of defending themselves, no way to acquire arms or train people how to use them, no organization that was able to reach out effectively to the West (although they did very bravely try). Saudi Arabia's treatment of women is appalling too, I agree. But the Taliban took it twenty steps further, and institutionalized a hatred of women that was virtually psychotic. In my view, that was grounds for war, definitely, and I wish we'd airlifted in a bunch of American women soldiers to blow their stupid heads off. We went to war against Hitler because of his failure to recognize borders and because of his contempt for human rights. Are you also saying that wasn't a just war? If you are, then you're saying war is never justified. That's a respectable view, so long as you're consistent and are prepared to stand by and let any dictator terrorize his fellow countrymen and, if he chooses to invade, his neighbours too. With respect, there IS evidence that the Iraqi government was involved with al-Qaeda before September 11th (although not conclusive) just as they were or are involved with the Abu Nidal group and all the Palestinian rejectionist groups. Saddam Hussein is a financial backer of most of the major terrorist groups in the Middle East. You can't know that Iraq had nothing to do with the September 11th attacks. I don't think anyone outside Iraq and al-Qaeda will know that until after the regime has broken up - then people who were close to Saddam might begin to speak out. Those who oppose war against Iraq must offer a realistic alternative. We can't pretend to live in a moral vacuum. If the West is in a position to help the Iraqi people, but chooses not to, then we are responsible in part for their situation, particularly as it was the West that strengthened Saddam's regime as a bulwark against the Islamists. Saddam does have weapons of mass destruction. I'll send you an article I wrote recently if you're interested. He is torturing his own people. He employs so-called "offical rapists" to deal with women who are disloyal, or whose husbands are suspected of political crimes. So if not war, then what? The sanctions can't continue because they're causing horrible poverty among ordinary people and not affecting Saddam at all. We can't do nothing and wait until he threatens someone with a nuclear weapon. So what do we do? Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 23:46:51 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: 'prepare" njc Couldn't agree more. Sarah At 8:15 PM -0500 12/22/2002, azeemak@aol.com wrote: One suggestion is that we stop selling arms to countries like Iraq. It won't help the situation in Iraq now, but it might help in the future. Then again, that wouldn't ensure votes any time soon, so that's not gonna happen, is it? The UK's economy relies to a very depressing extent on the so-called defence industry.. . >Oh, and the best suggestion I heard about trying to get a good >inventory of Iraq's "weapons of mass destruction" (why don't we use >that term about our own weapons) was to check our own records - >after all, The West sold most of them to Saddam. > >Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 23:51:43 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: 'prepare" njc Now why do you find that ignorant, Colin? From the point of veiw of Islamists, there is certainly a war against the West. They've felt that for many years, and have said so openly, but weren't taken seriously. Sarah At 3:12 AM +0000 12/23/2002, colin wrote: > (Islam versus the West) > > >it is just this sort of ignorant statement that makes me feel despair. >the media do their job very well and we the people just lap it up. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 00:54:03 EST From: Shnootre@aol.com Subject: Court and Spark Question Hello, I'm ducking out from lurkdom to post a question. I feel certain that I read a quote from Joni where she stated that on the album Court and Spark, she jammed with the band in the beginning, but ultimately told everyone exactly what to play and when. I don't remember where I read this, or what the wording was. And, it may actually have been in reference only to the song "Court and Spark," and not the whole album. Does anyone recall seeing such a quote? Dan S. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 22:26:09 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Top ten from LA Times (njc) The results are in from the L.A. Times music critics collective top ten for 2002. Joni/T'log didn't make it, not even on her most loyal critic, Robert Hilburn's, personal list. However, I think a number of you here will like the year-end assessment ;-) 1. Beck "Sea Change" 2. Eminem "The Eminen Show" (oh the humanity ;-) 3. Wilco "Yankee Hotel Foxtrot" 4. Queens of the Stone Age "Songs for the Deal" 5. Bright Eyes "Lifted or the Story in the Soil, Keep Your Ear to the Ground" 6. The Roots "Phrenology" 7. Bruce Springsteen "The Rising" (hi and welcome back Rose!) 8. Tom Waits "Alice" 9. Flaming Lips "Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots" 10. Elvis Costello - "When I was Cruel" (hi Bob on 1,7,8 and 10 ;-) Hilburn placed Eminem at No. 1, Norah Jones at 4 and The Hives at 9. I may be checking out The Hives based on Hilburn's description of their "Your Favourite Band" album - "this inspired update of '60s garage rock exuberance is the 2002 album most likely to put a smile on your face." Nice to have received a Borders gift certificate as an early Christmas present ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 01:59:30 EST From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Re: Court and Spark Question In a message dated 12/23/2002 12:55:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, Shnootre@aol.com writes: > I feel certain that I read > a quote from Joni where she stated that on the album Court and Spark, she > jammed with the band in the beginning, but ultimately told everyone exactly > > what to play and when. I don't recall Joni being quoted in this way, but I do recall a musician who toured with Joni after Court & Spark as having to be taught how to play some of the licks on Help Me in the exact way that whoever (Robben Ford?) originated them for the recording. Ken ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 02:15:49 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: December 23 On December 23 the following item was published: 1998: "The Intermedia Expressions of Joni Mitchell" - Bloomington Independent (Biography) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=55 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 02:15:48 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: December 23 1976: Hejira was certified Gold by the RIAA - ---- For a comprehensive reference to Joni's appearances, consult Joni Mitchell ~ A Chronology of Appearances: http://www.jonimitchell.com/appearances.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 04:23:49 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: NJC.....December 23rd happy birthday, john!!! from your fellow capricorn, four days behind you. love, wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 04:41:23 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: yet another december 23rd-er njc dear raffaele, happy birthday! no abundantia melancholiae at least for today. wallyK ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #583 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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