From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #580 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, December 21 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 580 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Garret NJC [Chris Marshall ] Re: Joni in the movie NJC [Chris Marshall ] riddle njc [colin ] Re: How do you plan on living through the end? [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #579 Peter Gabriel NJC [Aerchak@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #579 Peter Gabriel NJC [Chris Marshall ] Re: riddle njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: Mr Kratzman on Joni [Catherine McKay ] it's not the end [Aerchak@aol.com] * Last Call - Joni Offer 11/30/69 and 5/29/83 ["Music Is Special" ] oh, where is hope? [] Re: riddle njc ["kasey simpson" ] Re: Sweetest Voice Choice and JM NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: TTT challenge..........and Karen Carpenter NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Joni if the styles of the 40's and 50's? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Joni's not quitting [Little Bird ] john gorka njc [Mags N Brei ] Re: Garret NJC now "My Bad" ["RSM" ] Re: How do you plan...? NJC [dsk ] shawn and neil (NJC) [Mary Casey ] Re: Joni's not quitting [Catherine McKay ] Re: NJC "My Bad" [Catherine McKay ] Sweetest Voice Choice and JM ["Kate Bennett" ] alternative Karen njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: Karen Carpenter ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: john gorka njc [Fauchja@aol.com] re:travelogue progression/ the crone/happy winter solstice ["Kate Bennett] Critiques and stuff ["jacka1z" ] Mr Kratzman on Joni ["Kate Bennett" ] God must be a boogie man ["Mickey Morose" ] Re: john gorka njc [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: john gorka njc [Catherine McKay ] hey rosie!!! njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: hey rosie!!! njc [Susan Guzzi ] Re: was hey rosie!!!, now Merry Christmas njc [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: john gorka njc [Mags N Brei ] Re: Mr Kratzman on Joni [Mags N Brei ] Borderlines ["J.David Sapp" ] Re: How do you plan on living through the end?; njc really ["Jim L'Hommed] Re: 'prepare' njc [Randy Remote ] Re: How do you plan on living through the end? [Ricw1217@aol.com] Re: Joni's not quitting [Randy Remote ] Re: riddle njc [colin ] Re: 'prepare' njc [colin ] Joni's paintings [Little Bird ] Joni's voice and other stuff [colin ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 09:55:21 +0000 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: Garret NJC On Saturday, Dec 21, 2002, at 06:25 Europe/London, Chris Marshall wrote: > For anyone that wants to send birthday wishes to Garret, > be aware that he's not on list right now, so you'll need > to send messages direct: sproutulip@eircom.net Which should have read sprout@eircom.net. My bad, mixing up e-mail addresses. - --Chris Marshall chris@hatstand.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 10:15:29 +0000 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: Joni in the movie NJC On Saturday, Dec 21, 2002, at 03:45 Europe/London, Happy The Man wrote: > NP: Iona, Book of Kells (this would have been much better as the > soundtrack for The Two Towers! Agreed! Iona are a much underrated band in my opinion. I was lucky enough to seem them live a couple of times here in Cambridge, and they blew the house down. Such a shame that Nick Beggs left - the replacement bass player wasn't half as good :( Cheers, - --Chris Marshall chris@hatstand.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 10:22:45 +0000 From: colin Subject: riddle njc how do you get down from an elephant? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 06:12:53 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: How do you plan on living through the end? ET writes: << Joni definitely has the potential to equal or even surpassing Van Gogh & O'Keeffe. >> Um . . . okay. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 07:14:16 EST From: Aerchak@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #579 Peter Gabriel NJC What is the title of the new Peter Gabriel album? Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 12:24:38 +0000 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #579 Peter Gabriel NJC On Saturday, Dec 21, 2002, at 12:14 Europe/London, Aerchak@aol.com wrote: > What is the title of the new Peter Gabriel album? "Up" - --Chris Marshall chris@hatstand.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 07:40:40 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Garret NJC now "My Bad" --- Chris Marshall wrote: [re: Garret's e-mail address > Which should have read sprout@eircom.net. My bad, > mixing up e-mail addresses. > OK, I've heard so many people saying "My bad." What is up with that? Where did it come from? The first time I saw it in writing, I figured the person who wrote it didn't speak English as a first language. But I've heard it or read it countless times since then. Where does it come from and why is everybody saying it? This is driving me crazy - really! ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 07:41:12 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: riddle njc --- colin wrote: > how do you get down from an elephant? Shave its... armpits? ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 07:53:12 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Mr Kratzman on Joni --- Les Irvin wrote: > Joniphiles - - > Just found an interesting article which interviews > Mr Kratzman about his > school days with Joni: > http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=1038 > Check it out. > Les Les, that is a wonderful article. Mr. K. has led a very interesting life and I'm so glad his path crossed with Joni's. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 08:08:47 EST From: Aerchak@aol.com Subject: it's not the end Just a few comments. I loved John Irving's post. So eloguent and so right on. What's everyone so worked up about "the end" of joni's career? We're listening to a new album right now. Some of us like it. Some of us don't. Personally I think all of the judgement is arrogant. I am not equipped to judge a genius. I may prefer to listen to some albums more than others, but I refrain from passing judgement. And these neverending, sometimes cruel comments about her voice. And on and on about her voice. Her voice has changed. Her physical appearance has changed. Why don't people start talking about how she looks older too? And you know what, she's a little heavier than she used to be? Why not discuss that? No, that wouldn't be discussed because that would be in poor taste. Because we all know, one ends up aging in appearance. Well, the voice ages too, and surely her smoking has contributed. So I cannot help thinking there is a bit of judgement that it's her fault because she smoked. Nonsmokers think smoking is a character flaw and exsmokers think it's a character flaw too. Mainly it's just a horrible addiction that's more difficult to kick than heroin. The great sadness of it with Joni is that I fear she will die of lung cancer and that will be the end. But her music lives on and even if she never records one other thing we have a plethora of wonderful music to take us to our graves and I am so grateful for that everyday. Why don't we think about everything she has blessed us with instead of wanting more and more? Let the woman paint. Maybe she will start having art shows in the US. If she feels like writing some songs and recording she will. Joni does what she wants. And rightfully so. "It's coming on Christmas They're cutting down trees They're putting up reindeer And singing songs of joy and peace" Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 07:11:03 -0600 From: "Music Is Special" Subject: * Last Call - Joni Offer 11/30/69 and 5/29/83 If you want copies of the DAT>CDR transfers I did of Joni's Nov 30, 1969 appearance on PBS (audio only) or May 29, 1983 BBC appearance on "My Top 12", please send your trade list and mailing address if interested. These were previously treed on the list via cassette and DAT. cheers and happy holidays, Eric ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 09:00:03 -0500 From: Subject: Re: How do you plan on living through the end? On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 18:00:01 -0600 johnirving wrote: So the thought crossed my mind, > "Is this how the Joni journey ends for you???" > That you've travelled this winding > road and come to a point where you have to get > off the track because her voice > too painful to listen to?" It's not like she's > going to run out to the Winn-Dixie > and pick up a new voice. Time is not on her > side. I could be deeply wrong looking > at Joni as if she's got half a foot in the > grave. But for the most part, I see > her career as at its cusp. What we are left > with now will be 'What is.' > > With what serenity will you embrace the last > bit of a beautiful ride? Where will > you put the now in relation to all that was? > How do you deal with what is? That's > my point. That's my question. > > Face the direction of something you love. John, I guess to me it's not really that big of a deal, joni's voice not being what it used to be. I'm not writing her off but like many people, I'm just not that concerned and feel that she has already contributed so much rich material, if she stopped now I would be happy with what there is. What gets under my skin, is attributing motives to people who aren't listening to much of the current or new Joni, and/or might be more interested if she did things in a different way. The fact that this may be her last album doesn't really make a difference to me and is not going to change whether I enjoy it or not. That may seem callous but I just listen to what I love and am not really worried about it. Because her music will never end...it wll be here long after she is gone...just as Nick Drake's music has finally gotten widespread recognition 25 years later. I don't understand why I have to deal with anything I guess. Perhaps that means I've accepted things the way they are, with her career that is, and moved on. I accept the fact that her voice is not what it was. But just because I find it hard to listen to does not mean I want her to get a prettier voice. I don't want her to do anything. And it takes a whole lot of serenity and grace to get to that point. I'm not "getting of off a track" as I was never on a track to begin with. My Joni journey has not ended though and it never will end. Victor ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 9:13:58 -0500 From: Subject: oh, where is hope? JOHN: Loved your post. You articulated a lot of what I feel about T'LOG, about Joni (ALL of Joni), about life. And yeah, that "Oh, where is hope?" in JOB is amazing, isn't it? I wait for it every time, and it never fails to send a shiver down my spine. The Mitch has given us so much. I hope she has a little more (or, if we're lucky, a lot!) to give. Regards, MICHAEL in Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 09:37:25 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Re: riddle njc how do you get down from an elephant? You don't get down from an elephant, you get down from a duck! KaseyGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 10:08:06 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Sweetest Voice Choice and JM NJC Hi Toni, and welcome! You'll find lots of fellow Shawn fans and Patty fans here as well. Thanks for stepping up & chiming in...looking forward to hearing more from you. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 10:21:32 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: TTT challenge..........and Karen Carpenter NJC In a message dated 12/20/2002 4:04:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, hvnphun16@hotmail.com writes: > I was also thinking this a couple weeks ago...wouldn't "I'm > on the Top of > the World" make a good speed metal/punk rock tune? Mia, Shonen Knife thought the same thing and recorded "Top Of The World" as a punky speed-pop thing a couple of years ago on the wonderful & slightly uneven "If I Were A Carpenter" tribute project. If you haven't heard it and you're a Carpenter fan, it's worth a checkout. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 10:26:59 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni if the styles of the 40's and 50's? In a message dated 12/20/2002 5:36:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, ppeterson4@nyc.rr.com writes: > I > urge you to give the album a few more listens. Have no fear, Paul...I have been listening to these cd's a lot for awhile now and continue to do so. There is lots to enjoy, no doubt about it. And like another writer said, my hope is that Joni has processed this genre now and is ready to change gears. Tell you the truth, I would have no objections to her continuing in this style if she would just write some new stuff. BUT that doesn't mean I don't appreciate T'log. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 08:01:49 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Joni's not quitting 1970, Joni wrote: "I'm gonna make a lot of money, then I'm gonna quit this crazy scene..." Well, more than 30 years later, here we are with a new Joni Mitchell album. In a Canadian television interview that aired in 2000 she said that she was ready to retire from the beginning because she got "waylaid into music," which was deviant from her will, which was to develop her painting skills. She never liked the big stage, never enjoyed fame and never really felt like art could successfully meet commerce without one or the other suffering. She is not going to quit. She may feel like she wants to, but she's been feeling like that since before she was famous. Has it stopped her? Not one bit. She'll be around for years to come, provided she remains in good health. Even if her voice gives out entirely, she has so many options: instrumental work, painting, poetry, fiction, autiobiography. She's the personification of "art" and she will be true to herself no matter what the cost. So, let's all settle down, have some rum and egg-nog and just be glad we share a love of this great woman, despite differing opinions on how best to love her, which aspect of her work one should love the most, what she should do and should not do. We're all Joni fans, right? She is not going anywhere anytime soon, no matter how much or loudly she may lament. So, let's just relax! - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 08:55:43 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: john gorka njc can anyone recommend a john gorka cd to add to my wish list? just listening to him singing eric anderson's thirsty boots and it is absolutely gorgeous. john's voice reminds me a lot of our jack neilson. thanks ever so, mags. You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 09:00:10 -0800 From: "RSM" Subject: Re: Garret NJC now "My Bad" As I know it, "My bad" springs from the school playground games of my youth: Lost Angeles, SoCal, USA 1960's. It was an admitted error, usually causing a "do-over." For example, in handball, the server was allowed one "bad" before having to surrender the serve. Thus, if the server would hit the ball directly into the handball wall, he or she could declare "my bad" and get a "do-over." [On a related subject, does anyone remember "tapping" for exceptions and limitations to the games: "I tap no slicers!"?] It carried over to other sports, particularly basketball, where a player would confess an error in judgment or execution to his teammates such as one leading to silly turnover of the ball. Its like saying my fault, but slightly less pejorative or serious. I think it is used in this latter sense, meaning "I screwed up, but it aint all that big of a deal." A wonderful notion, as admitting error should be encouraged; it liberates the soul. Ron Los Angeles | OK, I've heard so many people saying "My bad." What is | up with that? Where did it come from? The first time I | saw it in writing, I figured the person who wrote it | didn't speak English as a first language. But I've | heard it or read it countless times since then. Where | does it come from and why is everybody saying it? This | is driving me crazy - really! | ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 12:24:12 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: How do you plan...? NJC Eric Taylor wrote: > > Debra wrote in response to John Irving's incredibly moving post: Eric, I responded to Victor's message and mentioned things both you and John had written and which, to me, expressed an attitude so off-putting I chose to comment on it. I suggest you read my message again, and if you would like to praise John's post that you do so without involving me. > ZEALOTS??? > Is that any less insulting than calling T'log fans "joni pod people"??? You proudly express your zeal, i.e., fervor for a particular person, so, yes, I'm calling you a zealot. Your behavior fits the definition. I have no comment on the joni pod people characterization. I do agree it's confusing to call John a zealot. His post was quite complex and my comments were only regarding the annoying, to me, sections describing people's supposed, less than completely Joni-adulating behavior. I leave it to others to respond to the more positive aspects of what he wrote. > Geez, Debra, you've been on this list since I first joined in > 1997 & should know a thing or two about flaming. I do. I know a flamethrower when I see one, and still end up getting hooked sometimes. > There was nothing zealous about John's beautiful post! > Perhaps you are blurring this with my comment a few days ago: *To > me if a listener always skips over Paprika Plains when they play DJRD, > they are not truly a Joniphile! Does this make me a Joni > Fundamentalist???* It makes you a harsh judge of other people's behavior. If I recall correctly, your comment was after someone recently mentioned that they skip Paprika Plains, so according to you they should check out of joni fanhood since they're not following one of your "rules". You don't see anything odd about imposing your rigid attitude onto everyone else? > I plead guilty to being a fervent Joni pod zealot. There's no need for you to plead to anything. You've shown it all clearly. > Now can you admit that you are an aging baby boomer wishing that > everything was just like it was in the good old days? I've shown it all clearly also, and if you want to imagine that's the way I am, go right ahead. You've made all sorts of incorrect assumptions about many people, so your imaginings are not anything for me to be concerned about. > What frustrates me even more is how dismissive so many seems to > be about her increasingly gorgeous paintings. I've read many positive comments about her paintings, especially the ones in T'log. If you're trying to pick a fight with me in particular, no thanks. Been there, done that. I'm not interested in discussing Joni's paintings again. > How many Help Me die hards grasp the magnitude of Joni's post > 70's artistic genius anyway? > THIS IS NOT MEANT AS A PUT DOWN TO ANYONE. > I'm just expressing my honest opinion. To avoid it coming across as a put down, I suggest you answer such questions for yourself (now THAT would be expressing an honest opinion) and leave it to others to answer for themselves in their own way. Leaving off dissy labels like "Help Me die hards" would help also. > Dreading the hammers & the boards & the nails, Then why write as you do? Take care, Eric. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 09:27:52 -0800 From: Mary Casey Subject: shawn and neil (NJC) Craig wrote: love shawn she is always willing to lend her talent to anyone when they pass through Austin (her and Neil Finn are awesome together. Craig, you don't happen to have anything like that recorded do you? I LOVE Neil Finn and Shawn Colvin and would really enjoy hearing them together. Mary ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 13:05:26 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Joni's not quitting --- Little Bird wrote: > 1970, Joni wrote: "I'm gonna make a lot of money, > then I'm gonna quit this crazy scene..." Well, more > than 30 years later, here we are with a new Joni > Mitchell album. > > In a Canadian television interview that aired in > 2000 she said that she was ready to retire from the > beginning because she got "waylaid into music," > which was deviant from her will, which was to > develop her painting skills. "Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans." John Lennon. > So, let's all settle down, have some rum and egg-nog > and just be glad we share a love of this great > woman, despite differing opinions on how best to > love her, which aspect of her work one should love > the most, what she should do and should not do. > We're all Joni fans, right? No thanks, but I'll have a beer, thank you very much. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 13:13:30 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: NJC "My Bad" --- RSM wrote: > As I know it, "My bad" springs from the school > playground games of my youth: > Lost Angeles, SoCal, USA 1960's. It was an admitted > error, usually causing > a "do-over." For example, in handball, the server > was allowed one "bad" > before having to surrender the serve. Thus, if the > server would hit the ball > directly into the handball wall, he or she could > declare "my bad" and get a > "do-over." [On a related subject, does anyone > remember "tapping" for > exceptions and limitations to the games: "I tap no > slicers!"?] Verrrry interrrresting. I thought maybe they were trying to say, "Am I bad!" and just screwed it up somehow, except, if that's the case, everyone's screwing it up the same way. If it's been around that long, I wonder why so many people are saying it now. I don't think they've been saying it all along and I only just noticed. Very weird how expressions get around the world so quickly and all of a sudden *everyone* is saying them. (I completely do not understand your "tapping" thing, by the way, but I always avoided sports like the plague, except for track and field.) ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 10:34:30 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Sweetest Voice Choice and JM hi toni! huge shawn colvin & patty griffin fan here! speaking of patty, here is my review (only 90 words!) of her latest: http://www.independent.com/a&e/criticspiks.html >>I've seen Patty G. and Shawn's mentioned here. They are not Joni and I know they would not claim to be, but I do think their talent is awesome. Just wanted to share. Thanks!<<< Toni ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 15:51:32 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: alternative Karen njc there's a tribute cd called ''if i were a carpenter'' on which shonen knife (did that band EVER exist????) does ''top of the world''. the album is very weird and fun. american music club does a creepy version of ''goodbye to love''. sonic youth: ''superstar'', sheryl crow: ''solitaire''. my favorite is dishwalla doing ''it's going to take some time''. even the cranberries (for some profound and yet unveiled reason my most hated band) are good on this cd. wallyK - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de mia ortlieb Enviado el: Viernes, 20 de Diciembre de 2002 06:05 p.m. Para: joni@smoe.org Asunto: TTT challenge..........and Karen Carpenter I was also thinking this a couple weeks ago...wouldn't "I'm on the Top of the World" make a good speed metal/punk rock tune? I hope you all have a joyous Holiday! Mia ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 16:06:24 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Karen Carpenter clive, i couldn't go out of the house for three days when i heard karen had died. it was all so strange and shocking. my parents were watching the news and just like that the news person said, ''karen carpenter died today of heart failure''. i was just passing by the tv set and thought i had misheard the name. i asked my father a million times what he had heard. he said, ''that girl you like, she's dead''. i waited until 2 am for the morning papers to come out. i still believed it couldn't be true. although my sister was anorexic, i had never heard of karen's illness. karen was my girl. for the last 20 years, richard carpenter has been releasing and cashing in on rare karen material or outtakes: he'd release a cd with 10 old songs and one previously unreleased track (like the ella-karen duet). his vaults are full of stuff that he'll release on this or that anniversary, birthday, etc.. by the dose. he's still pumping money out of karen's talent and memory. what a disgraceful behavior. wallyK - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Chorando6@aol.com Enviado el: Viernes, 20 de Diciembre de 2002 11:20 p.m. Para: joni@smoe.org Asunto: Re: Karen Carpenter My first awareness of death came when my dad bought tickets for us to see the Carpenters at the Palladium Clive xx ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 14:08:40 EST From: Fauchja@aol.com Subject: Re: john gorka njc I like Jack's Crows.... Fauchja ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 11:04:55 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: re:travelogue progression/ the crone/happy winter solstice >>her voice. I personally have accepted it with open arms - I love the quality, the feminine darkness of it - it is bravura. very sexy, candle lit.Stephen<< there are 3 stages of the goddess...the maid, the mother, the crone...in speaking of joni & travelogue, i find it important to realize that we are discussing an artist who has entered the third stage of life, that of the crone... "The Crone is the ancient holy one. She is grandmother, witch and hag. She has been ignored, trivialized, blamed and feared, for she holds powers that others deny. Powers of time and transformation. Powers we may fear, but would do better to understand...She is the One Who Knows Death. She will introduce you to your shadow. She can free you from your fears. The Crone is She Who Has Gone Beyond. She has lived many years and many lives. Her feet know the paths of the Ancestors. Through her we can touch those who have gone before. She has lived for love, for power, for grace. Now she lives for herself and her journey. She travels new roads and dares the unknown. She is ancient, but not always aged. She may be beautiful, but she's not pretty. She Who Has Gone Beyond goes beyond our idea of what a deity or a woman may be." http://www.croneways.com/ "The Dark Mother is the most misunderstood of the triple aspects of the Goddess...The greatest fear in Western Society is the fear of death and so many have turned away from this face of our Mother. We see this in our fevered need for eternal "youth and beauty" (as defined by society)... Advanced age should be a time to look forward to in our lives. We should be able to look back and remember all that has happened to us with wisdom and good humor. We should be given the chance to relax and rest and contemplate our lives in preparation of a joyful reunion with the Dark Mother, come to take us into Her starry womb once more. Instead because we don't build a comfortable relationship with the Crone early in our lives, near the end all we feel is frustration and fear. ...First we must realize that Death is not the only domain of the Crone. Endings of all sorts fall under Her sway, and endings always lead to new beginnings...The Dark Mother also covers trance states, spirit communication, and prophecy. http://www.waningmoon.com/guide/library/lib0015.shtml happy winter solstice to all! ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 14:22:47 -0500 From: "jacka1z" Subject: Critiques and stuff Well, I've been enjoying the continual pros and cons for Travelogue and Joni's life's works. Very good points by all. The same thing is going on at YesTalk.org. When artists stick around this long and have devoted fans who love to speak their minds, it's wonderful. Sure occasionally people react to their own projections of what the other says, that's because we live in our own dreamtime. Anyway, I'm switching gears because rarely do I get to speak about my favorite Joni moment, and that was the concert for Amnesty International about 12 years ago. It was put on for 3 days by MTV, but the last evening was switched to network primetime. At 7 or 8 whenever it started, Bryan Adams came on and rocked the house, I guess. I really didn't understand why he was there at all, I figured someone paid for that time slot. So he "rocked" then they cut away to commercial. When they came back the crowd was in a pop frenzy, chanting "We're number one, we're number one". Joni comes out and starts a solo slow acoustic version of The Three Great Stimulants. Through at least the first half of the song, people were screaming and just partying, loud and proud. But by the end of the song the majority had finally remembered what the concert for Amnesty International was about, that people were being tortured and dying everyday by brutal tyrants, some of which (not all) were supported by western civilization "Oh these times, oh these brutal times". Then she brought an impromptu four-piece band, Larry Klein, Manu Katche (who plays with Peter Gabriel) and Dolette McDonald (who backed up vocals for Sting) and they played Number One which grooved, further redefining the concert from chanting "We're number one" to "honey, did you win or lose?". Then Larry and Joni finished with Hejira, "Then I looked at myself here, chicken-scratching for my immortality." That's when I became an absolute fanatic of Joni's expression. Jack ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 11:35:28 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Mr Kratzman on Joni what a great article...to read how absolutely critical his influence was on her creativity...thanks les... >>Just found an interesting article which interviews Mr Kratzman about his school days with Joni: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=1038<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 20:45:17 +0000 From: "Mickey Morose" Subject: God must be a boogie man I've finally listened to the first tlog cd. Its huge isn't it? There's just so much music here i'm not surprised a lot of people (me included) are taking a long time getting into it. Its much bigger than The White Album or Blonde on Blonde or DJRD or any of the other double albums which - if you're like me - we took a long time "getting" when they first came out. And I think another problem is when listening to it we may have to do some unlearning and relearning cos we all know and love all the songs but done very differently, so can't help having preconceptions and expectations. But - - hey - life's for learning and something's lost but something's gained by living every day. But what I really came on to say was that I enjoyed cd1 on first listen - I'm going to listen again now - but was blown away by GMBABM - this to me is how the song should be done - I enjoyed it a million times more than the Mingus version, and also more than the Shadows and Light performance. By the way, I've listened to Hejira again, and thanks for the correction - it was before the "hope and hopelessness" bit, where she says each so deep and so superficial between the forceps and the stone oh-oh-oh. WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_addphotos_3mf ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 16:06:44 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: john gorka njc In a message dated 12/21/02 11:56:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, magsnbrei@yahoo.com writes: > can anyone recommend a john gorka cd to add to my wish list? just listening > to him singing eric anderson's thirsty boots and it is absolutely gorgeous. > john's voice reminds me a lot of our jack neilson. Hi Mags et al! I've been back for a while now. Highly recommend Jack's Crows. No Jersey Girl should be without it. I love the song houses in the fields & I'm from NJ, of course! Gorka is an excellent songwriter and a first-rate live performer. rosalita in nj ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 16:23:49 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: john gorka njc --- RoseMJoy@aol.com wrote: > Hi Mags et al! I've been back for a while now. > Highly recommend Jack's Crows. No Jersey Girl should > be without it. Hey, nice to see you back! ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 18:38:40 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: hey rosie!!! njc so happy you're back, naughty girl! love, wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 13:58:39 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: hey rosie!!! njc Look who's home for the holidays! Cool Rose ... great to see you again. I don't care if you were back for awhile, we couldn't see you till you posted - glad you did! Peace, Susan NPIMH: Joan Armatrading/Rosie Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 17:31:45 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: was hey rosie!!!, now Merry Christmas njc In a message dated 12/21/02 4:59:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, groovchacha@yahoo.com writes: > great to see you again. I don't care if you were > back for awhile, we couldn't see you till you posted - glad you did! > > Thank You Suzie and Wally. It sure is good to be back home. For Xmas I got a little present for yaw'll. Go here: http://springsteennews.net/ then hit the download tab. There are 2 audio downloads Kitty's Back and Merry Christmas Baby from Conan 12/12/02 It was the best feckin rock performance I've seen live on late night television. NJ's finest accompanied by South Side Johnny, LaBamba and those Miami horns. LMAO It may help Lama et al with those Christmastime blues much love, peace & happiness Rosalita ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 14:52:35 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: john gorka njc RoseMJoy@aol.com wrote: Hi Mags et al! I've been back for a while now. Highly recommend Jack's Crows. No Jersey Girl should be without it. I love the song houses in the fields & I'm from NJ, of course! Gorka is an excellent songwriter and a first-rate live performer. Rosalita!!! welcome back honey!!! good to see you again, hope you enjoyed your rest. ;~) thanks for the John Gorka recommendation..hey does that mean I'm a Jersey goil too? okay re ; Jack's Crows, I have it down on my wish list . I meant to mention that I heard John on the Bleeker Street CD which is a compilation of many artists...and is wonderful wonderful food for the soul. We've had quite a day of travelling round the CDs . Moogs, still an alien shiksa ;-) np: Yvette in English performed by David Crosby's Thousand Roads, another gem. You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 14:57:01 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: Mr Kratzman on Joni yes, a wonderful article about a wonderful man! Thank you Les for posting this. Kratzman is such a sweetheart, warm and sincere, just as he comes across in the article. At the Hommage in Toronto last year, Joni was so surprised to see him and she was gushing and so excited, almost as though she became that young school girl again. They were both beaming! So sweet to see that connection. Mags. np:Columbus, David Crosby Kate Bennett wrote:what a great article...to read how absolutely critical his influence was on her creativity...thanks les... >>Just found an interesting article which interviews Mr Kratzman about his school days with Joni: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=1038<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 18:15:44 -0600 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: Borderlines The tone of the discussion of late prompts me to post the following - I can't say it any better: Everybody looks so ill at ease So distrustful so displeased Running down the table I see a borderline Like a barbed wire fence Strung tight strung tense Prickling with pretense A borderline Why are you smirking at your friend? Is this to be the night when All well-wishing ends? All credibility revoked? Thin skin thick jokes! Can we blame it on the smoke, This borderline? Every bristling shaft of pride Church or nation Team or tribe Every notion we subscribe to Is just a borderline Good or bad we think we know As if thinking makes things so! All convictions grow along a borderline Smug in your jaded expertise You scathe the wonder world And you praise barbarity In this illusionary place This scared hard-edged rat race All liberty is laced with Borderlines Every income every age Every fashion-plated rage Every measure every gauge Creates a borderline Every stone thrown through glass Every mean-streets-kick ass Every swan caught on the grass Will draw a borderline You snipe so steady You snub so snide So ripe and ready To diminish and deride! You're so quick to condescend My opinionated friend All you deface all you defend Is just a borderline Just a borderline Another borderline Just a borderline peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 19:49:23 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Re: How do you plan on living through the end?; njc really John, I haven't been following this thread so I'm not taking sides. As someone who was inappropriately but thoroughly taught to always express every opinion, this post is a help. Along with the big-brother advice from an honorary Native American, this is a keeper. Thanks. Lama, a gentleman in training John Irving said, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I stand firmly on the side of people listening to what they love: Love what you like. Like what you love. Don't like something? Move on. Find the things you like and love and love it to death. I couldn't be more thrilled that Bob has so much beautiful music to fill his life with. With what serenity will you embrace the last bit of a beautiful ride? Where will you put the now in relation to all that was? How do you deal with what is? That's my point. That's my question. Face the direction of something you love. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 17:26:31 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: 'prepare' njc colin, you pretty much nailed it. Bush has been planning this attack and he is not about to let facts or anything else get in his way. Iraq's 'dossier' was given to the US before anyone got to see it. Our mainstream media is not reporting that it was censored to remove pages in which US (and foreign, particularly German) weapons makers were named who contributed deadly products to Sadam right up until the month before Bush Sr's Gulf "war". (As Bill Hicks said a war is when TWO nations fight). In their campaign to sell this folly to the US people, the big media here (now owned by 5 megacorporations) does not want this kind of uncomfortable information widely known. The only ones carrying it are the alternative media. The irony (also never mentioned) is that this is only going to create more hatred for the US, more terrorists, and we will be less safe than ever. Thanks George. Guess all that schoolin' paid off. RR colin wrote: > Our govt has told us that the services here are preparing for war 'just > in case'. do these people(Bbush and Blair) think we are stupid? As if we > didn't know that they are going to war regardless? we knew the 'dossier' > was going to be a 'pack of lies' before it was even delivered. Why do > politicians treat us all like arseholes? oh, because we let them...... > > Also we have been warned to expect a terrorist incident soon, probably > in London. I am just glad John is home for two weeks now. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 20:36:47 -0500 From: Ricw1217@aol.com Subject: Re: How do you plan on living through the end? joni has the potential of surpassing van gogh and/or o'keefe? oh for chrissakes. this is just embarassing. even joni, in her most egotistical megolamanical moments would probably not say something quite so obtuse. i certainly hope not, anyway. i'm not sure if you are currying favor with the pod people (and anyone who gets insulted by that needs to thicken up the old epidermis) or you are just being silly. whatever the motivation, (even, as frightening as it maybe, if this is something you sincerely believe) all you are REALLY doing is revealing how little you know and understand about art. (you realize of course, i am only sacrificing myself for YOU, by presenting a bigger, more tantalizing target for the flamers.) enter the multitudes... ric ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 17:44:49 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Joni's not quitting Little Bird wrote: > n a Canadian television interview that aired in 2000 she said that she was ready to retire from the beginning because she got "waylaid into music," which was deviant from her will, which was to develop her painting skills. She never liked the big stage, never enjoyed fame and never really felt like art could successfully meet commerce without one or the other suffering. I had the occasion a couple years ago to visit a gallery showing of John Lennon's art. It was enjoyable, but the feeling I had afterward was, yes, he was artistic, but suppose he had never made music. Would his art have moved millions of hearts? (I am a huge Lennon fan BTW). I guess I feel the same about Joni's art. I know she is driven from a deep place to create and paint. But will her art ever be a rosetta stone that all other painters will gush about and say that it influenced them? In the case of both of them, their music was so undeniably head and shoulders above their contemporaries. As far as their art, it is nice enough, but there are probably thousands of artists who are as good or better, and were it not for their celebrity, we probably would have never been aware of their work. So thank goodness Joni was "waylaid" by her music carreer. It's strange that she is almost complaining about having been a trailblazing composer. I guess what I'm trying to say, to sum up, is that as a musician and songwriter, Joni is in the top 1%. Had she poured all her talent into painting, I doubt we would be signed onto a discussion list for it..... RR ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 02:28:43 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: riddle njc smartarse! kasey simpson wrote: > > > > > how do you get down from an elephant? > > You don't get down from an elephant, you get down from a duck! > > Kasey > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 02:36:37 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: 'prepare' njc Randy Remote wrote: >colin, you pretty much nailed it. Bush has been planning this >attack and he is not about to let facts or anything else get in >his way. Iraq's 'dossier' was given to the US before anyone >got to see it. Our mainstream media is not reporting that it was >censored to remove pages in which US (and foreign, particularly >German) weapons makers were named who contributed deadly >products to Sadam right up until the month before Bush Sr's >Gulf "war". (As Bill Hicks said a war is when TWO nations >fight). In their campaign to sell this folly to the US people, the >big media here (now owned by 5 megacorporations) does >not want this kind of uncomfortable information widely known. >The only ones carrying it are the alternative media. The irony >(also never mentioned) is that this is only going to create more >hatred for the US, more terrorists, and we will be less safe >than ever. Thanks George. Guess all that schoolin' paid off. >RR > > > I wonder if he is about to attack NK? or is China a bit too close? One of our newspapers yesterday had a whole frontpage warning the world about a mad man with weapons of mass destruction-accomanpied by a pic of Bush. I said on the list years ago that a ,lot of us non Americans felt that WW3 would be started by the USA. It is not just non whites who fear the USA. And it has othing to do with hatred of the uSA. It has to do with genuine, fact based, fear. It seems the uDSA is answerable to no one and expects eveyone else to answer to it. As for Blair-how shameful.One opion here is that the reason he is behaving as he is is ebcause he wants to Pres be of the USE. Seems daft to me as I have nasty feeling there won't a USE to be pres of-or a USA or anywhere. I hate to be so pessimistic, and I truly hope I am wrong, but it gets increasingly diffiuclt to believe we are not all fucked. For years I kidded myself that no one was as mad as this, that no one would dare start a game. But then i didn't undertadn how far fundametalism had spread and that the worlds greatest power(after China) would be so influenced by it. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 18:37:07 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Joni's paintings I absolutely agree with Randy's assessment of Joni's art. It's good, it's pretty, it's nice, and certainly isn't anything to sneeze at. As for making statements as profound and meaningful as her songwriting, there is no question that it's just not as poignant, and will not be remembered as being on the same level as her musical contributions. Similarly, it's not even close to the level of excellence that the masters demonstrated. And there are painters who are not at all famous who paint better than Joni. I think Joni understands this. She said once that she usually paints as a form of meditation and that she usually does art that will look good in her living room. A writer for the Ottawa Citizen wrote exactly the same sentiment as Randy's - that the exhibit at the Mendel would never have existed if Joni wasn't a world-famous personality. Having said that, I love her artwork. As I say, it's very beautiful ("40 below 0," "Hyde Park" and "Valentino" being my favourites) it just won't likely be remembered as Joni's primary contribution to the world. But it sure is a wonderful bonus feature! - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 02:48:27 +0000 From: colin Subject: Joni's voice and other stuff we have been up to Wallasey today(Liverpool is just over the river-thru the Mersey Tunnel). Got to speak to a voice coach and an opera singer. both of whom are really up on music and modern singers too. One thing i asked was about celine dion, having read so much vitriol about her here and not understanding it. According to these two, the reaosn THEYY don't like her is that she 'performs' and isn't a singer. To put it simply, she has no soul. She couldn't do what she does without being taught every step. They mentioned Joni, Carole King, Carly Siimon, Barbar Striesand as being people who sang from within. HOWEVER, both felt Joni was not a singer but a performer. Hang on I said, you juts said the reaosn you think Celine is bad is because she is a performer not a singer! No, I had misundertood. Joni performs from her soul but does not have a singers voice. So that is what they said. They also said that was a great artist in her writing and music ability, truly innovative. They also said that the deterioration in her voice is down to age and that she deosn't have a singers voice to begin with. They said that smoking has very little to do with it and that many great singers smoke/smoked and still had wonderful voices even after years of smoking and age. Oh and obviously they do not desrivbe her early voice as soprano. Now i just pass the above on. None of it is what is say(cos i don't udnerstand half of it). i found it interesting. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #580 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)