From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #560 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, December 10 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 560 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Travelogue (those of a nervous disposition please avert your eyes ;-) [FredNow@aol.c] THAT C&S SONG ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] RE: ebay ["Kate Bennett" ] Canadians To Inspect US for Weapons NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Dylan and joni: Idiot Wind ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] Re: We love our lovin' [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: False alarms and mondegreens? - njc [colin ] Re: THAT C&S SONG [Deb Messling ] Re: False alarms now njc [Catherine McKay ] RE: Joni's pronunciation of Hejira [Catherine McKay ] TO EACH HIS OWN [] Re: False alarms ["Moni Kellermann" ] Re: Joni Mitchell Night at Club Passim, Boston, MA - January 6, 2003 [ann] Re: Joni Mitchell Night at Club Passim, Boston, MA - January 6, 2003 [Ash] Re: False alarms and mondegreens? - njc ["RSM" ] Re: false alarms [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Travelogue (those of a nervous disposition please avertyour eyes ;-) [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Joni's pronunciation of Hejira [Mags N Brei ] Re: Covers #35 contest is now history njc [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Travelogue (those of a nervous disposition please avert your eyes ;-) [AzeemAK@aol.c] Re: TO EACH HIS OWN [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Refuge of the Roads ["J.David Sapp" ] Re: Travelogue (those of a nervous disposition please avert your eyes ;-) [Steve Polifka ] Myths & Misc [Steve Dulson ] travelogue njc [colin ] Re: Travelogue (those of a nervous disposition please avertyour eyes ;-) [dsk ] Re: Travelogue (those of a nervous disposition pleaseavertyoureyes ;-) [d] Re: THE 3 GREAT "STIMULANTS" [Jenny Goodspeed ] Re: Travelogue (those of a nervous disposition please avertyour eyes ;-) [Susan Guzzi Well, I've slaved through the whole damn thing, and my overriding response >is a wish that Mr Mendoza had been shown the red card before the project got >the green light. Someone (one of the other Doubting Thomases) also flagged Wayne Shorter's >contributions as a major irritant, and I have to agree wholeheartedly: >to these ears they add nothing whatsoever. > >Joni's still the greatest; this album, for this listener, is a disaster. You don't dig it, that's cool. But why do you think Joni is so sold on Vince and Wayne? Is she mistaken? If given the chance, how might you have tried to talk her out of it? These are my questions. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 03:09:04 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: THAT C&S SONG Ken, welcome home. A wise lama said, only last week, that Joni is a treatment for depression. (NOT a cure! If you have depression get help!) Maybe I should invoke one of them-there 20 dollar kollege words: catharsis. In interviews, she has often said "I sing my sorrow and I paint my joy." I was convinced that she meant "I write my sorrow and I paint my joy", especially when she found her daughter and stopped writing. But in the wake of 911, it seems like seems like she was painting her sorrow. It doesn't look promising, campers. Most days, I think Simon was right....... Lama Ken said, >>>>>>>>> When I was a little boy, my younger brother died unexpectedly and I suffered from a sort of post-traumatic anxiety about 6 months after the event. I picked up Court and Spark, and gave it a listen and was absolutely transfixed. And Help Me transformed for me into a feel-good song ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 00:13:36 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: ebay yes, i think that is the reasoning, that the donor already took the deduction...i think the charity is supposed to let you know how much of the item is an allowable deduction (or rather is not deductible)... >>Is that the reasoning behind the tax code in this case - because Joni is already taking a deduction for part of it (a value I suppose she would determine absent a formal appraisal) the buyer can only take a deduction for the balance over and above what Joni takes?<< ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 00:23:53 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Canadians To Inspect US for Weapons NJC FW: [usob] Canadians To Inspect US for Weapons(a friend sent this to me & at first i thought it was a joke...apparently it is not...look at the bottom to see where it is from!) CANADIANS TO LEAD WEAPONS INSPECTION TEAM INTO USA Toronto November 21, 2002 http://www.rootingoutevil.org A coalition of Canadian peace groups today announced their intention to send an international team of volunteer weapons inspectors into the United States later this winter. The coalition, Rooting Out Evil, are recruiting inspectors through their newly launched website, ."Our action has been inspired by none other than George W. Bush," said Christy Ferguson, a spokesperson for the group. "The Bush administration has repeatedly declared that the most dangerous rogue nations are those that: 1) have massive stockpiles of chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons; 2) ignore due process at the United Nations; 3) refuse to sign and honour international treaties; and 4) have come to power through illegitimate means. "On the basis of President Bush's guidelines, it is clear that the current U.S. administration poses a great threat to global security," said Ferguson. "We're following Bush's lead and demanding that the U.S. grant our inspectors immediate and unfettered access to any site in the country "including all presidential compounds " so that we can identify the weapons of mass destruction in this rogue state," added David Langille. Visitors to Rooting Out Evil's website are invited to sign on as honorary members of the weapons inspection team. Honorary inspectors can participate in the action, or they can simply lend the support of their name as they would on a petition. The actual inspection team that crosses the border will be comprised of prominent individuals from Canada and other countries. The Rooting Out Evil coalition includes Greenpeace Canada, the Centre for Social Justice, and the Toronto Committee Against War and Sanctions on Iraq, and is supported by American groups such as the National Net work to End the War Against Iraq, Global Exchange and the US section of the Women's International League for Peace and Freedom. They oppose the development, storage, and use of weapons of mass destruction by any state. For information: David Langille or Christy Ferguson info@rootingoutevil.org Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada Phone (306) 664-6071 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: SunbeamsRus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 03:39:11 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: My ideas on Joni's statue Yeah, at the dedication, the adults would all go, "Oooh, words on glass. That's so sophisticated." Then, after dark on the first night, a bunch of kids would use it for target practice. Broken words. [Maybe it would only happen in the USA. You don't have guns in Canada, do you? :) ] Why are we discussing it, anyway? I mean, when a sculptor comes along, it's all going out the window anyway, right? It's going to be "his or her" creation and no part of this discussion will matter in the least. Lama npimh: "Haruph! Four hundred years old, am I. My OWN counsel will I keep." npimh: I don't want nobody comin' over da my table, I got nuttin' da dalk da anybody about. Jack opined: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know how practical glass would be, but I thought about having a large glass screen, maybe with a bronze in front of it. Etched on the glass would be the lyrics to Hejira, or some other song of choice. They could ask Joni what song to use, conduct a fan poll, or allow people making donations to vote on their choice of songs. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 03:49:58 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Dylan and joni: Idiot Wind BZZZT. The author of the "Blood On the Tracks" was freshly divorced, very disappointed, and hurt. Hence the album title. The ol' boy wasn't dancing that time out. He was telling it like it was. Word: "Sarah, oh Sarah Sweet virgin angel sweet love of my life Sarah, oh Sarah Don't ever leave me don't ever go." Not our lady of duality. Thanks for playing. Lama ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 03:57:53 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: We love our lovin' Many hot love affairs burn out and go cold. As a matter of fact, I've seen some hot, hot blazes reduced to simply smoke and ash. Adam wondered, >>>>>>> The way she sings "And I've seen some hard, hard places come down to - smoke and ash" is truly gorgeous (that "smoke and ash" particularly... why is that? Enunciation? Phrasing? Because I've a few beers inside me?) >>>>>>>> Yeah, she can chew up those angry words and spit 'em out too! Lama ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 01:23:44 -0800 (PST) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: We love our lovin' hadn't i known the lyrics i'd say she's singing "come down to smoking hash":) love, nuri - --- "Jim L'Hommedieu (Lama)" wrote: >Many hot love affairs burn out and go cold. As a matter of fact, > > >I've seen some hot, hot blazes reduced to simply smoke and ash. > > >Adam wondered, >>>>>>>> >The way she sings "And I've seen some hard, hard places come down to - smoke >and ash" is truly gorgeous (that "smoke and ash" particularly... why is >that? Enunciation? Phrasing? Because I've a few beers inside me?) >>>>>>>>> > > >Yeah, she can chew up those angry words and spit 'em out too! >Lama _____________________________________________________________ Free email, web pages, news, entertainment, weather and MORE! Check out -------------------------------> http://wowmail.com _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:25:16 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: False alarms and mondegreens? - njc Wally Kairuz wrote: >oh, i always thought it was: >''i'm your venus and your fire destroys desire'', which i thought >extraordinarily profound for bananarama. >and can you read my posts now, murphy adooooooored? >wallyK > > > i heard it as' i'm your venus, i'm your fire, your desire' ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 06:42:20 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: THAT C&S SONG Which Simon, our Simon? Right about what? At 03:09 AM 12/10/02 -0500, you wrote: >But in the wake of 911, it seems like seems like she was painting her >sorrow. It doesn't look promising, campers. Most days, I think Simon was >right....... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/02 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 06:45:53 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: False alarms now njc --- Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: > Heavenly Hell asks: > Well, Hell, just off the top of my head I can think > of quite a few Greek references in Joni's songs: > > Murphy, how do you do it? ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 06:52:02 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: RE: Joni's pronunciation of Hejira --- Wally Kairuz wrote: > > > incidentally, how many of you pronounce > *clandestine* the way joni does in > ''don't interrupt the sorrow''? is it the canadian > way? I usually don't pronounce it, as it doesn't come up in everyday conversation. ("Who was that clandestine lady I saw you with last night?" "That was no lady - that was my wife.") I probably would pronounce it the way Joni does, but I'm not sure if being Canadian has anything to do with it. I could look it up on a dictionary... naaah. I'm going to take this to work and see how people there pronounce it. The people I work with are always arguing about stuff like that (they're writers, what do you expect?) I seem to recall IV Paul or someone that nasty making an issue of this a few years ago (something along the lines of there being only ONE way to pronounce it and anyone who thought otherwise was just plain stupid.) ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:57:35 +0100 From: "Moni Kellermann" Subject: Re: False alarms and mondegreens? - njc Regarding the lyrics of "Venus": A few sources on the web quote the lyrics as follows: A Goddess on a mountain top Was burning like a silver flame The summit of Beauty in love And Venus was her name She's got it yeah, Baby, she's got it Well, I'm your Venus, I'm your fire At your desire Her weapon were her crystal eyes Making every man mad Black as the dark night she was Got what no-one else had I personally was a huge fan of the Dutch band Shocking Blue when I was in my early Teens. Their version is the "original", the 80's Bananarama one a cover. I used to listen to the Shocking Blue version a lot and to me the singer Mariska Veres sings "I'm your Venus, I'm your fire, Your desire" - there clearly is a pause between "fire" and "your", so to me there is no "at" in the last line of the refrain. By the way, another cover version of a Shocking Blue song came by Nirvana, who recorded "Love Buzz" for their album "Bleach", they also played that song a lot during their live concerts. moni ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 07:11:58 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: RE: False alarms --- "Mary E. Pitassi" wrote: > > As it is, I know that the > U.S. Navy's precision > flying squad, the Blue Angels, which performs in air > shows around the country, > completes its early training in late fall of each > year at the Naval Air > Station in Pensacola, FL. But then, around January, > the Blue Angels pack up > to begin even more serious training in--you got > it--the desert, in and around > Southern California. > > There are six Blue Angel planes in the squad. Their > "vapor trails," given the > intricacy and symmetry of their exercises, are quite > memorable. And Joni's Dad was in the airforce, so she probably pays more attention to planes than some might. Her Dad probably told her a lot about them. My Dad wasn't in the airforce, but he was in the army intelligence corps. Not "intelligence" as in James Bond spying, but something along those lines, sneaking around the Netherlands and so on to figure out what the Germans were up to. He was very good at figuring out things about planes just by their shape and by the sounds they made. I think people who have been in the military, especially during wartime, do pay more attention to that kind of stuff, and they would pass it on to their kids. I used to think that "hexagram" was another word for "Hexagon" ("It was the hexagram of the heavens, it was the strings of my guitar") and so I did visualize one of those airshow formations with the vapor trails making a hexagon shape in the sky. However, apparently it has to do with the I-Ching, which uses six-line (hexagram) combinations to provide clarity in personal situations and a whole bunch of other stuff that I couldn't explain, because I'm not into it, though I've tried it once or twice for fun. You can see more on - where else - the web - here's a url with some info on it: http://www.tarot.com/about-oracle/?l=20&file=faqs ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 7:44:42 -0500 From: Subject: TO EACH HIS OWN Hey AZEEM, I'm sorry that T'LOG is a "disaster" for you. And I'm not trying to change your mind. I mean, I'm not fond of DED or CMIARS -- though I wouldn't call either a disaster. I think of them as Joni explorations that -- for me -- were less successful than other explorations. I think you have to be careful , though, in how you phrase your criticism. Some of us really love the arrangements (count me in) and love Joni's passionate (if not always perfect) performances of these songs. So when you write, in reference to the new HEJIRA, "desecrated by the arrangements and rendered pitiful by the weakness of the singing," you're asking for trouble, pal! ;-) It's funny, I don't love every minute of T'LOG, but I think that this HEJIRA is perfection. I find the orchestration sweeping and succulent and full of feeling; and Joni's singing is riding the wave. But here I go, trying to change your mind. It ain't gonna happen, is it? And that's OK. Alot of folks don't like the T'LOG WOODSTOCK, but I do. A lot of folks love COME IN FROM THE COLD, but I don't. What am I trying to say?! Oh yeah: let's agree to disagree sometimes. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 13:43:10 +0100 From: "Moni Kellermann" Subject: Re: False alarms - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catherine McKay" > I used to think that "hexagram" was another word for > "Hexagon" ("It was the hexagram of the heavens, it was > the strings of my guitar") and so I did visualize one > of those airshow formations with the vapor trails > making a hexagon shape in the sky. However, apparently > it has to do with the I-Ching, which uses six-line > (hexagram) combinations to provide clarity in personal > situations and a whole bunch of other stuff that I > couldn't explain, because I'm not into it, though I've > tried it once or twice for fun. You can see more on - > where else - the web - here's a url with some info on > it: > http://www.tarot.com/about-oracle/?l=20&file=faqs The hexagrams of the I Ching consist of 2 parts, three lines each and representing differents elements: Heaven: - --------------- - --------------- - --------------- Earth: - ----- ----- - ----- ----- - ----- ----- Thunder: - ----- ----- - ----- ----- - --------------- Water: - ----- ----- - --------------- - ----- ----- Mountain: - --------------- - ----- ----- - ----- ----- Wind: - --------------- - --------------- - ----- ----- Fire: - --------------- - ----- ----- - --------------- Sacred Lake: - ----- ----- - --------------- - --------------- So, if you have a hexagram consisting of twice the "heaven" element it would look like - --------------- - --------------- - --------------- - --------------- - --------------- - --------------- and also look like six guitar strings. moni ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 04:45:14 -0800 (PST) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: Re: Joni Mitchell Night at Club Passim, Boston, MA - January 6, 2003 I am SO there!!!!! Let me know if you need me to pick up tix. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:00:28 EST From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Mitchell Night at Club Passim, Boston, MA - January 6, 2003 OK........So far there is me, Anne, Maggie, Chris, Ric, Jenny, and Erik. Any more takers? Chuck? Smurf? Brigitte? Stephen? :-) Please let me know soon! Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 05:07:15 -0800 From: "RSM" Subject: Re: False alarms and mondegreens? - njc But is it poetry? And what does it mean: The summit of Beauty in love.? Its been bugging me for some time. (About 20 seconds) ;P > Regarding the lyrics of "Venus": > > > A few sources on the web quote the lyrics as follows: > > A Goddess on a mountain top > Was burning like a silver flame > The summit of Beauty in love > And Venus was her name > > She's got it yeah, Baby, she's got it > Well, I'm your Venus, I'm your fire > At your desire > > Her weapon were her crystal eyes > Making every man mad > Black as the dark night she was > Got what no-one else had ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:36:24 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: false alarms PAUL PETERSON wrote: > I always associated this refrain with what I always felt was the key > confessional element of the song: "Maybe I've never really loved, I guess > that is the truth". The false alarm of every sexual relationship that felt > like love but wasn't. That is exactly how I've always interpreted the line. The beauty of Joni's brilliant lyrics is that they can mean the same, or so many different, things to so many different people. Jerry np: Shawn Colvin - Christmas Time Is Here ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:56:36 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Travelogue (those of a nervous disposition please avertyour eyes ;-) FredNow@aol.com wrote: > > > But why do you think Joni is so sold on Vince and Wayne? Is she mistaken? Fred, My opinion is that she is in the Comfort Zone, a place she never used to seek. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 06:22:18 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: leaving for a bit Hi all - I'm leaving the list for a week or so. Too busy with Christmas shopping and out-of-town excursions to really keep up. Au-revoir mes amis, mes amours. - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 06:39:22 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: Joni's pronunciation of Hejira wahwahjashuska asked: ><< incidentally, how many of you pronounce *clandestine* the way joni does in > ''don't interrupt the sorrow''? is it the canadian way?>> > > and then the devine Mr. M. in Seattle wrote: <<>> and now me chiming in: i pronounce clandestine in the same way. canadian mags You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:43:44 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Covers #35 contest is now history njc In a message dated 12/9/2002 9:59:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, anima_rising@yahoo.ca writes: > Muller is not only the > Kovers King, but the Inkorruptable Kovers King b) I'm > a lousy guesser at stuff like this (even when I do play). Well, I can't cast scandal on the JMDL Covers project! :~) But for what it's worth, I was pulling for ya kid. And believe me, everyone who wins always prefaces their guess with "I never win these things but..." so keep those guesses coming. Bob, still reCOVERing from last night's Bruuuuce show in SC!!! NP: Julian Coryell, "Gay's Flight" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:10:08 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Travelogue (those of a nervous disposition please avert your eyes ;-) In a message dated 10/12/2002 08:02:52 GMT Standard Time, FredNow@aol.com writes: << You don't dig it, that's cool. But why do you think Joni is so sold on Vince and Wayne? Is she mistaken? If given the chance, how might you have tried to talk her out of it? These are my questions. >> Thanks for your measured response Fred! Why is Joni so sold on VM and WS? Well, she likes the sound they make! I guess it's as simple and unfathomable as that. Perhaps, to her, they make her songs sound lush and full; perhaps they confer on the songs a patina of neo-classical credibility, as if they're part of the orchestral repertoire - and maybe that's TOTALLY wrong on my part, who knows but Joni? Is she mistaken? Well, to my subjective fan's ears, yes, she is mistaken, they ruin her songs - or to be more precise, they contribute to the ruining of her songs, along with the weakness of her singing. AND YET: at the risk of trotting out a platitude, I do realise that not everyone shares this view. << If given the chance, how might you have tried to talk her out of it? >> A really interesting question. I suppose, waving my hypothetical wand for a moment to facilitate this conversation, I'd have told her that the songs were great enough to stand alone, and that I didn't like Vince Mendoza's arranging style, and that I feared that it would swamp her songs in treacle. If I'd been feeling very brave, I might have said that her singing was getting so croaky that juxtaposing it with very lush orchestral arrangements would throw it into unfavourable contrast. I'm sure she would have thanked me profusely for my advice, smiling graciously as she operated the lever to the trapdoor... Azeem in London NP: Shawn Colvin - Whole New You (what a great record this is!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:20:27 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: TO EACH HIS OWN In a message dated 10/12/2002 12:46:04 GMT Standard Time, mtotzke@gosympatico.ca writes: << I think you have to be careful , though, in how you phrase your criticism. Some of us really love the arrangements (count me in) and love Joni's passionate (if not always perfect) performances of these songs. So when you write, in reference to the new HEJIRA, "desecrated by the arrangements and rendered pitiful by the weakness of the singing," you're asking for trouble, pal! ;-) >> I see your point, Michael, and I accept the collegial spirit in which it is given. However, there is a serious point, sort of, which is that I am absolutely not criticising anyone who likes this album. I'm saying I dislike it, and yes, I am saying so in strong terms. We're all adults here, and I would hope that we can hear criticism of records we like without feeling attacked ourselves - and this has indeed been the reaction of nearly everyone who has replied to my original post. If they think I've taken leave of my senses, they have not felt the need to say so, and that's as it ought to be. I didn't like it when a few listers put the boot into Matthews Southern Comfort's version of Woodstock, which I love and which was the first Joni song I can remember hearing. After getting a bit huffy for a moment I realised that it doesn't matter. << It's funny, I don't love every minute of T'LOG, but I think that this HEJIRA is perfection. I find the orchestration sweeping and succulent and full of feeling; and Joni's singing is riding the wave. >> Are you crazy, man? You must have taken leave of your senses!! ;-) Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:37:22 -0600 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: Re: Refuge of the Roads And let us not forget to include Muller's version from Jonifest '02 - great job Bob. peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:32:34 -0600 From: Steve Polifka Subject: Re: Travelogue (those of a nervous disposition please avert your eyes ;-) I wasn't going to go there, but I feel the same way about Wayne Shorter's playing. Okay, we know he can play... but what is he playing? Can this guy play ANYTHING remotely melodic or beautiful or even intriguing, stimulating,(on Joni's CDs)instead of this smattering of notes- like the swipe of a paintbrush at a canvas from 50 feet away?(lol) I don't understand. Please explain. Steve p.s. However, she's gotten better about singing her consonants... ;-) At 10:10 AM 12/10/02 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 10/12/2002 08:02:52 GMT Standard Time, FredNow@aol.com >writes: > ><< You don't dig it, that's cool. > >But why do you think Joni is so sold on Vince and Wayne? Is she mistaken? If >given the chance, how might you have tried to talk her out of it? > >These are my questions. >> > >Thanks for your measured response Fred! Why is Joni so sold on VM and WS? >Well, she likes the sound they make! I guess it's as simple and unfathomable >as that. Perhaps, to her, they make her songs sound lush and full; perhaps >they confer on the songs a patina of neo-classical credibility, as if they're >part of the orchestral repertoire - and maybe that's TOTALLY wrong on my >part, who knows but Joni? > >Is she mistaken? Well, to my subjective fan's ears, yes, she is mistaken, >they ruin her songs - or to be more precise, they contribute to the ruining >of her songs, along with the weakness of her singing. AND YET: at the risk >of trotting out a platitude, I do realise that not everyone shares this view. > ><< If given the chance, how might you have tried to talk her out of it? >> > >A really interesting question. I suppose, waving my hypothetical wand for a >moment to facilitate this conversation, I'd have told her that the songs were >great enough to stand alone, and that I didn't like Vince Mendoza's arranging >style, and that I feared that it would swamp her songs in treacle. If I'd >been feeling very brave, I might have said that her singing was getting so >croaky that juxtaposing it with very lush orchestral arrangements would throw >it into unfavourable contrast. > >I'm sure she would have thanked me profusely for my advice, smiling >graciously as she operated the lever to the trapdoor... > >Azeem in London >NP: Shawn Colvin - Whole New You (what a great record this is!) > > Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:40:31 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: false alarms colin wrote, about Wally's idea: > > >maybe joni means every time you fall in love you think it's the real thing > >but it's just a matter of time before your wax wings melt and you land on > >our ass. if that's what she meant, i agree with mitchell. > > > was she being that cyncical? not all love fails. Maybe not, but there's always change and almost always some disappointments when people get to know each other. Not that the disappointments have to lead to the end of the relationship, but it takes a lot of maturity and genuine love, not play love, to get beyond them, and focus on the good parts. It doesn't seem like many people can do that, at least not easily, myself included. > If, and only if, one > can take any credence in what has been written about Joni or what she > hereself has said, I imagine relationships with her would be veyr > difficult. she appears demanding and controlling and not very tolerant. I see her as creative and challenging and emotionally honest, and wanting that from people she's in a relationship with. I doubt that even her Sunday friends get away with much bullshit. To people who don't want such intensity with her, or who just don't think that way, she'd probably come across as unbearably demanding. Surely, though, her realness and charm would go a long way toward making a relationship with her enjoyable, at least in small doses. > I wonder if even Joni falls in love with her idea of someone instead of > the reality of someone? I think so. The line "and feeling proud to say I love you right out loud" to me is about her enjoying being in love, a self-satisfaction feeling, rather than a genuine feeling about a particular person. Even though she wrote it when she was young, it still makes sense to hear her sing it now. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 07:47:58 -0800 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Myths & Misc English s/ser Anne Lister has a beautiful song called "Icarus" that has been covered by Martin Simpson and a bunch of other folks. US s/ser Richard Berman has a song (title slips my mind) based on the famous painting of a farmer unconcernedly plowing his field, while off in the distance Icarus falls to the sea. It is a very powerful myth. Mary P. is right on about both the Blue Angels and USAF Thunderbirds practicing in the deserts of California and Arizona. Mary, I'm wearing my Pensacola sweatshirt as I type this. :) And I join with Deb regarding "Wolf that Lives in Lindsay" - it is one of my all time Joni faves. - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:55:21 +0000 From: colin Subject: travelogue njc Perhaps we should round up all those who don't like Travelogue, who think Joni can't sing anymore, try them(just a formality-they are as guilty as sin) and sentence them to death. who wants to be in the firing squad? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:23:30 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Travelogue (those of a nervous disposition please avertyour eyes ;-) AzeemAK@aol.com wrote: > > ... If I'd > been feeling very brave, I might have said that her singing was getting so > croaky that juxtaposing it with very lush orchestral arrangements would throw > it into unfavourable contrast. That's what bothers me the most, the contrast of her choppy singing and downturned phrases with the flowing stringy sound. Her inability to sustain a phrase is especially obvious when listening through headphones. It's not a matter of wanting her to sound like she used to because I like her lower voice, but why make her limitations so obvious by backing it with the lushness of an orchestra? I think the songs that work the best are the snappier jazz ones where the short phrases make sense. To add to my displeasure, those long intros, especially on disk 1, seem pretentious and remind me of a movie score, and after the big buildup the usually wimpy endings are unsatisfying. All in my opinion, of course. There are some beautiful moments in these songs, but mostly T'log annoys me, depresses me to hear Joni's lack of lung power, and/or puts me to sleep. Disc 2 is especially fine for drifting off to, a sure cure for insomnia. I do like the packaging, and the cds in a book idea, and seeing glimpses of Joni's life as a painter. That is all beautifully done and a pleasure to look through. And I'll probably be listening again to T'log and finding the highlights (Unchained Melody being one I recall) and trying to ignore the rest. If Joni does write again, perhaps it could be with someone else doing the singing so she could write freely rather than just write what she'd be able to sing. Think Joni would ever do that? And if there was someone to do Joni's singing for her, any ideas as to who that might be? Debra Shea NP: Henryk Gorecki, Symphony No. 3. Thanks, Joseph in the Philippines, for your mention of this a while ago. It's a heartrending beautiful piece of music. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:32:21 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Travelogue (those of a nervous disposition please avertyour eyes ;-) FredNow@aol.com wrote: > But why do you think Joni is so sold on Vince and Wayne? Is she mistaken? I think Vince's sweeping, dramatic arrangements remind her of the Hollywood movies she saw when she was a kid. They remind me of cinema scores from that era. As for Shorter, count me as another who just doesn't get anything out of his playing except maybe annoyance. Is she mistaken? Like Satchmo once said when asked what good music is, 'if you like it, it's good' . RR np (not playing) Travelogue ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:49:23 -0500 From: "Maggie McNally" Subject: RE: Travelogue (those of a nervous disposition please avertyour eyes ;-) Maybe it reminds her of the sounds that backed up Billie Holiday. I've been listening to Lady in Satin a lot lately and that struck me, although Travelogue's are way more extensive than LIS's. Maggie > -----Original Message----- > From: Randy Remote [mailto:guitarzan@direcpc.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 11:32 AM > To: FredNow@aol.com; joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Travelogue (those of a nervous disposition > please avertyour > eyes ;-) > > > FredNow@aol.com wrote: > > > But why do you think Joni is so sold on Vince and Wayne? Is > she mistaken? > > I think Vince's sweeping, dramatic arrangements remind her of > the Hollywood movies she saw when she was a kid. They remind > me of cinema scores from that era. > As for Shorter, count me as another who just doesn't get anything out > of his playing except maybe annoyance. > Is she mistaken? Like Satchmo once said when asked what good > music is, 'if you like it, it's good' . > RR > np (not playing) Travelogue ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:07:02 -0500 From: "Jerry Notaro" Subject: RE: Travelogue (those of a nervous disposition please avertyour eyes ;-) Maybe it reminds her of the sounds that backed up Billie Holiday. I've been listening to Lady in Satin a lot lately and that struck me, although Travelogue's are way more extensive than LIS's. Maggie Funny you should mention this. I listen to Lady In Satin often. When I listened to it last week I thought if only Joni's orchestra and arrangements would have been as lean. Those of Lady In Satin are those of a classic masterpiece. No comparison in my book. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:17:35 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: Travelogue (those of a nervous disposition please avertyoureyes ;-) > I do like the packaging, and the cds in a book idea, and seeing glimpses > of Joni's life as a painter. That is all beautifully done and a pleasure > to look through. And I'll probably be listening again to T'log and > finding the highlights (Unchained Melody being one I recall) and trying > to ignore the rest. I find myself also liking the snappier jazz numbers on Travelogue. As for Chinese Cafe/Unchained Melody, I found the arrangement lacking and somewhat muddy in all its lushness...too lush maybe and not enough body to it. Just the other day, I listened once again to the "Joni/James 1970 live performance in London." It is so strikingly beautiful and I love listening to it. I don't get the same reaction from listening to Travelogue...I listen more out of curiosity and out of a love for Joni Mitchell and her music rather than a love for Travelogue itself. For the most part, I think whatever joy I get from it is somewhat of a sentimental nature. This is not meant to be a criticism of Joni or to date her but just an honest observation, comparing my enjoyment of these two particular recordings, regardless of how I feel towards her as an artist. I have seen Kansas a few times in the past several years and I found Steve Walsh to have similar problems in his vocal delivery, especially on songs like "Dust in the Wind." He just can't sing them well anymore...it is a strain on his voice. While I enjoyed seeing them it definately took something away from the performance. I don't know if this is possible but I feel that I share both Kate's response and Azeem's. There is a part of me that loves hearing these songs and another part that can't stand it. As far as not liking everything an artist does, Neil Young has put albums out several times that many of his fans were less than thrilled about. I don't think they admire him any less for that but just accept it for what it is. Victor in Asheville - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:20:42 -0500 From: "Maggie McNally" Subject: RE: Travelogue (those of a nervous disposition please avertyour eyes ;-) Which is why I used the word extensive - I haven't made my mind up about Travelogue's orchestrations yet, but I do agree that the Lady in Satin's orchestrations are leaner...and time had certainly shown the album (orchestrations and all) to be a classic masterpiece. Only time will tell with Travelogue. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jerry Notaro [mailto:notaro@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 12:07 PM > To: Maggie McNally; 'Randy Remote'; 'JMDL (E-mail)' > Subject: RE: Travelogue (those of a nervous disposition > please avertyour > eyes ;-) > > > > Maybe it reminds her of the sounds that backed up Billie > Holiday. I've > been listening to Lady in Satin a lot lately and that struck me, > although Travelogue's are way more extensive than LIS's. > > Maggie > > Funny you should mention this. I listen to Lady In Satin often. When I > listened to it last week I thought if only Joni's orchestra > and arrangements > would have been as lean. Those of Lady In Satin are those of a classic > masterpiece. No comparison in my book. > > Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:47:40 -0500 From: Subject: THE 3 GREAT "STIMULANTS" Now, how do people feel about what I think of as Joni's "let's get serious" T'LOG triad -- namely SLOUCHING, LUDWIG and JOB? I really disliked them on first listen; then they grew on me and I found myself liking them. Now? My fondness for JOB has deepened to love, and I'm back to disliking the first two. You know what it is for me? It isn't the orchestrations; I like the bombast of them. It's Joni's performance. Both SLOUCHING and LUDWIG seem to be beyond her current vocal capabilities. On SLOUCHING, I wish someone had talked her out of her "Head of a man"s, I really do. (!) And Joni sounds so rough on LUDWIG that it feels like a first take. As for JOB, I think it's better than the original. I like the choir, which has a timeless, nationless, mysterious quality. And Joni's performance (that heartbreaking "Oh where is hope?") is magnificent. What do you think? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:50:36 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Travelogue (those of a nervous disposition pleaseavertyoureyes ;-) Victor Johnson wrote: > > ...I listen more out of curiosity and out of a love for Joni Mitchell and her > music rather than a love for Travelogue itself. For the most part, I think > whatever joy I get from it is somewhat of a sentimental nature. That's how I feel about it, which is why I hesitate to dismiss it completely. As always, I look forward to whatever Joni comes up with next. She's such a good storyteller, I wonder if she's ever thought to do a musical... Debra Shea NPIMH: Pirates of Penzance... very theatrical ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:05:14 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: THE 3 GREAT "STIMULANTS" I haven't commented on Travelogue much, but I had to chime in with I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE Joni's voice on Slouching. It is currently my favorite piece to listen too. Especially at the end - it is electric - full of power - a power that I would have liked to hear more of. So funny. I get such a kick out of the fact that Travelogue is generating such passionate, diverse, and often diametrically opposed opinions on the list. It may not be as perfect or sublime as many of us would have liked, but it sure packs a punch. Jenny - --- mtotzke@gosympatico.ca wrote: > Now, how do people feel about what I think > of as Joni's "let's get serious" T'LOG triad -- > namely SLOUCHING, LUDWIG and JOB? > > I really disliked them on first listen; then they > grew on me and I found myself liking them. > Now? My fondness for JOB has deepened to > love, and I'm back to disliking the first two. > > You know what it is for me? It isn't the > orchestrations; I like the bombast of them. > It's Joni's performance. Both SLOUCHING > and LUDWIG seem to be beyond her > current vocal capabilities. > > On SLOUCHING, I wish someone had talked > her out of her "Head of a man"s, I really do. (!) > > And Joni sounds so rough on LUDWIG that > it feels like a first take. > > As for JOB, I think it's better than the original. > I like the choir, which has a timeless, nationless, > mysterious quality. And Joni's performance > (that heartbreaking "Oh where is hope?") is > magnificent. > > What do you think? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:18:02 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Travelogue (those of a nervous disposition please avertyour eyes ;-) I guess I feel like I can analyze Joni's singing somewhat, because I feel I am going through the same struggles as she is with the changes in our voices. Or shed some light on it with my 2 cents. Sooooooooooo as much as I do love Travelogue, and much of Joni's new voice, she has a ways to go in perfecting or learning her best space in the jazzier style. Really, I think it is the phrasing. She may not be having as much trouble as we think with the breathing, but may actually be making a conscious choice in her phrasing. That's just one possibility. And I don't know if that's better or worse than having problems with the breathing. Cause I'd like to think she was forced to make these choices by limitations, rather than just making poor choices. I actually think it is a bit of both. NOT that I think it is all bad. Remember I had very low expectations for this album and I am very pleased with it - I give it a B, maybe a B+. So please don't make me run for cover. :-D But it is not perfect. Seems I have tried to express this here before, but there I went again anyway! ;-) This I think Deb, lends itself to your frustration with the "choppy" sound or singing. I think a lot of people have decent or even good voices, but it is their style, range and phrasing that sets them apart. I have heard this over the years and I know I heard Linda Ronstadt say something about phrasing being the key to a good singer, many years ago. And Deb you are exactly right - the snappier songs work especially well because of her phrasing, no matter what the reasoning or cause. However, I love the lushness of the orchestra! I just wish Joni could/would use her voice more to play more with the orchestra. That would be great - I think. Peace, Susan NPIMH: Zeus Must Be A Boogie Man - -- dsk wrote: > That's what bothers me the most, the contrast of her choppy singing and > downturned phrases with the flowing stringy sound. Her inability to > sustain a phrase is especially obvious when listening through > headphones. It's not a matter of wanting her to sound like she used to > because I like her lower voice, but why make her limitations so obvious > by backing it with the lushness of an orchestra? I think the songs that > work the best are the snappier jazz ones where the short phrases make > sense. > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 13:35:45 -0500 From: "blonde in the bleachers" Subject: Re: flase alarms The line before this though is "People will tell you where they've gone,They'll tell you where to go, But till you get there yourself you never really know.." I don't think she is being dismissive, Travelogue is her journey, these are her picture postcard charms that ultimately hold many special meanings to her and to us too, because she has let us in. I like to think of the phrase "Amelia it was just a false alarm" as kind of having the attitude that it never really happened, that Amelia is still flying her plane somewhere and that Joni's trials of the heart never diminished her appetite for finding it again.... >From: Bruce Kimerer >Reply-To: Bruce Kimerer >To: >Subject: Re: flase alarms >Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 14:41:14 -0400 > >Thanks everyone for your thoughts on this. I know I'm trying to be a little >too analytical about this. Joni's meanings (in her best songs) are conveyed >implicitly, not obviously. That's part of the beauty of them. I get caught >up on the word IT though -- so specific, so particular, yet with no clear >corresponding subject (maybe that's part of the point). I guess the song's >about the sadness (tragedy) of noble failure. > >So why title her latest work TRAVELOGUE, with the clear reference to Amelia >and a life filled with picture postcard charms. The regret in that verse >stems from the realization that the inspired urgency of exploration has >resulted in nothing more than a collection of sweet little snapshots. > >I wouldn't think she would view her life's work that way. Or does she see >the title to simply mean a tour of her work? But then she prints the >postcard line in the booklet. I read 'picture postcard charms' as a >dismissive phrase, signifying something of little lasting value. > >Bruce - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:36:45 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: Travelogue (those of a nervous disposition please avertyour eyes ;-) I agree Susan. And I think the slow (glacial) tempo of some of the songs combined with Joni's short phrasing makes it even more apparent. I think her choices are concious and well thought out - - perhaps they reflect her current vocal strengths and weaknesses - but, she has said in interviews that her singing style incorporates short or clipped phrasing. If the tempos on some of the numbers were kicked up a bit, I don't think I would mind the phrasing as much. Jenny - --- Susan Guzzi wrote: > I guess I feel like I can analyze Joni's singing > somewhat, because I feel I am going through the > same struggles as she is with the changes in our > voices. Or shed some light on it with my 2 > cents. Sooooooooooo as much as I do love > Travelogue, and much of Joni's new voice, she has a > ways > to go in perfecting or learning her best space in > the jazzier style. Really, I think it is the > phrasing. She may not be having as much trouble as > we think with the breathing, but may actually > be making a conscious choice in her phrasing. > That's just one possibility. And I don't know if > that's better or worse than having problems with the > breathing. Cause I'd like to think she was > forced to make these choices by limitations, rather > than just making poor choices. I actually > think it is a bit of both. NOT that I think it is > all bad. Remember I had very low expectations > for this album and I am very pleased with it - I > give it a B, maybe a B+. So please don't make me > run for cover. :-D But it is not perfect. Seems I > have tried to express this here before, but > there I went again anyway! ;-) > > This I think Deb, lends itself to your frustration > with the "choppy" sound or singing. I think a > lot of people have decent or even good voices, but > it is their style, range and phrasing that sets > them apart. I have heard this over the years and I > know I heard Linda Ronstadt say something > about phrasing being the key to a good singer, many > years ago. > > And Deb you are exactly right - the snappier songs > work especially well because of her phrasing, > no matter what the reasoning or cause. > > However, I love the lushness of the orchestra! I > just wish Joni could/would use her voice more to > play more with the orchestra. That would be great - > I think. > > Peace, > Susan > > NPIMH: Zeus Must Be A Boogie Man > > -- dsk wrote: > > > That's what bothers me the most, the contrast of > her choppy singing and > > downturned phrases with the flowing stringy > sound. Her inability to > > sustain a phrase is especially obvious when > listening through > > headphones. It's not a matter of wanting her to > sound like she used to > > because I like her lower voice, but why make her > limitations so obvious > > by backing it with the lushness of an orchestra? > I think the songs that > > work the best are the snappier jazz ones where the > short phrases make > > sense. > > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up > now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #560 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)