From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #529 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, November 28 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 529 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- carly njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Good bye to bad Art. [johnirving ] A Memoir ["Paul Castle" ] Re: Giving Vince Mendoza his due, part 1 of ?? was "wow, again." [FredNo] "Penitence of Spirit" ["Paul Castle" ] Re: Carly Simon bares her soul (NJC) [colin ] Re: "It's comin' on Christmas" (NJC) [Gertus@aol.com] M'Shell, NJC ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: Travelogue [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: "It's comin' on Christmas" (NJC) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] critics, blah [] statue [] Joni's Dinner at Prego [James Leahy ] RE: never inhaled - njc [Steve Polifka ] Re: Joni's statue [Steve Polifka ] Happy Birthday!(njc) ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: Joni's statue [Steve Polifka ] Today in Joni Smoking History: November 27 [Murphycopy@aol.com] Stuffin' ["Russell Bowden" ] Re: Joni's statue ["Erica L. Trudelle" ] Traveloge - the good, the bad, the ugly [Little Bird ] Re: "Penitence of Spirit" ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] RE: Travelogue ["Chris Marshall" ] RE: Travelogue ["Lori Fye" ] Travelogue [Seulbzzaj@aol.com] Re: critics, blah [colin ] Re: Travelogue ["laurent Fonquerne" ] RE: Today in Joni Smoking History: November 27 ["patrick leader" ] Re: Today in Joni Smoking History: November 27 ["kakki" ] Big Walt in SF - njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: A Memoir ["kakki" ] Thoughts on disc 2 [Little Bird ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #361 (njc) ["kakki" ] Re: Joni never inhaled [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Joni never inhaled [Little Bird ] Re: Joni never inhaled/Dole - njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Aging, smoking singing ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: carly njc & a bit of photoshop...you can tell the difference between the candid pic & the others... >Well then, I stand corrected. I assumed she had...so that's good for her that she still looks that good just by taking care of herself!< ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 01:44:40 -0600 From: johnirving Subject: Good bye to bad Art. "1. Is there such a thing as good art? (an old philosophical question but it seems to be the root of a lot of discussion). Is all expression worthwhile no matter what the consequences." Thank Goodness, Good bye to bad art, good art. I was beginning to worry... The guilt was crushing. Now I can indulge myself in an afternoon of Jerry Springer, a few Lenard Nimoy albums, and maybe a third or fourth viewing of Armegeddon. -I thought they were all crap on a stick. But now my eyes are revealed: it's all good. There is no bad. -What WAS I thinking??? If nothing's bad, can any of us be sure Travelogue is good??? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:19:43 -0000 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: A Memoir Kakki wrote >Maybe she will talk about it all in her bio. Seeing this reminded me that I recently came across a brief bio -quoted as from the 'Encyclopedia of Popular Music'- on Joni's MP3.com site (or, at least, a site that someone has set up in her name (sadly no songs to stream yet). On the information page - http://artists.mp3s.com/nn/artist_info/1/1647.html I found: >Recommended Books: A Memoir by Joni Mitchell and under BIBLIOGRAPHY: >Joni Mitchell, Leonore Fleischer. Both Sides Now, >Brian Hinton. A Memoir, Joni Mitchell. Complete >Poems And Lyrics, Joni Mitchell. Shadows And >Light: The Definitive Biography, Karen O'Brien. So, is "A Memoir" getting close? Reading this, from a few years ago (pre Kilauren) http://members.ozemail.com.au/~ghostv/joni.html > The three books Mitchell is working on are a volume > of song Iyrics, a coffee-table book of her paintings and > an autobiography. But don't expect a tell-all naming > lovers and settling old romantic scores. > "They want to know the celebrities I rubbed up against, > but I told them that's not the most interesting part of my life," > she explained. "To me the most interesting things have > been the synchronistic, mystical aspects." On the MP3.com site I was also interested to see her list of 'followers', a couple of whom I'd never heard. >Followers >Jewel (Folk Rock), Suzanne Vega, Mary Margaret O'Hara, >Julia Fordham, Jane Siberry, Wendy MaHarry, Prince, >Kristin Hersh, Rickie Lee Jones, Once Blue, Cassandra Wilson, >Tuck & Patti, Madeleine Peyroux, Victoria Williams, Sting Who are 'Once Blue'? or Madeleine Peyroux? PaulC np Indian Paintbrush - diane zeigler (oh my!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 04:34:05 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Giving Vince Mendoza his due, part 1 of ?? was "wow, again." Disclaimer first: I've only listened to Travelogue once through, but I won't let that stop me (insert emoticon here). There is sometimes a fine line between program music and its most base rendering, what is called "Mickey Mousing," most often heard in cartoons in which every action has an equal musical reaction. Obviously, we don't want that here (and I don't think that's what we get). But Joni has always used programmatic elements in her arrangements and orchestrations, like the example you gave of her original version of "Trouble Child" in conjunction with the line "breaking like the waves at Malibu." I dig Mendoza's version of this, as I do his rendition of the bombers "turning into butterflies above our nation." Being a painter at heart, she sees music as just another set of colors, which, of course, it is. I'm absolutely sure that Mendoza took no license he wasn't issued. Fred In a message dated 11/26/02 4:49:31 PM, jlamadoo@yahoo.com writes: >Thanks, Fred. The other day you hinted that you think >Mister Mendoza did some interesting things for >TRAVELOGUE. Others have problems with the 'liscence' >he took, creating "program music" rather than a >reserved supporting score, implying that he created >something akin to incidental music in a movie score >(like using a slide whistle when Oliver and Hardy are >doing slap stick). When you're ready, I'm keenly >interested to know how this shakes down, in your >brain, over time. > >Lama > > >--- FredNow@aol.com wrote: >> "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" >> writes: >> >> >In literature when an author gives human >> characteristics to an animal, >> >it's called anthropomorphism. Does anyone have a >> word for using instruments >> >to give sound to a thought? >> >> Yes, it's called "program [or 'programme'] music" -- >> music that tells a story >> or paints a picture -- as opposed to "absolute >> music" -- music written purely >> for its musical value. >> >> -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:34:27 -0000 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: "Penitence of Spirit" > To this day she bridles at the application of the term > "confessional" to her 1970s songs because to her, > confession implies information extracted under duress. > The term she prefers is "penitence of spirit". http://members.ozemail.com.au/~ghostv/joni.html That would make a great song theme, Joni C'mon - get that guitar out of its case! PaulC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 10:03:02 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Carly Simon bares her soul (NJC) Carly can sing anything, as you know, so buy it! I have it. Her voice is wonderful as always. Mark or Travis wrote: >Thanks for posting this, Steve! If anybody has heard the Christmas cd I'd >be very interested in knowing what you think. I've seen it but have >hesitated about buying it. I'm very picky about Christmas music! And if >someone has heard it and they didn't like it, DON'T YOU DARE SAY SO! **JUST >KIDDING** > >Mark E in Seattle >mulling over all the recent posts about critics and criticism > > > >>...and that's a pretty sexy Christmas outfit she has! :) >> >>http://www.cnn.com/2002/SHOWBIZ/Music/11/26/carly.simon/index.html >>-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 05:56:59 EST From: Gertus@aol.com Subject: Re: "It's comin' on Christmas" (NJC) In a message dated 26/11/2002 23:53:04 GMT Standard Time, pdcmusic@freeuk.com writes: > Funny you should mention Bert Jansch, Jacky. > I just was thinking the other day about albums > I've never owned - but felt like I did because > friends played them so often - and I'm always > amazed to find are not amongst my CDs when > I go looking. > > Jack Orion for one. Interesting. That's why I've been enjoying looking through the Transatlantic goodies on Sanctuary and choosing albums I didn't buy at the time for one reason or another - usually a combination of lack of funds and not quite loving the music enough, I guess. Re: Bert - I have a pretty extensive collection of his work and it still gives me great pleasure to listen to, including Jack Orion, although, at the time, I found that a very strange and difficult album - so different from his previous work. Since the publication of Colin Harper's book, I've been searching fruitlessly for a copy of "Avocet" which Bert, himself, rates as one of his best, but is unavailable. I'm desperate for it to be re-released. On a Joni note, one of my all time favourite albums is Bert and John (Renbourn, of course) which includes a beautiful version of Goodbye Pork Pie Hat. I wonder if Bob has that one? Good to hear from you, Paul, Jacky ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:03:47 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: M'Shell, NJC Saw M'Shell Ndegeocello last night. She can sing like Tracy chapman, plays bass like Darryl Jones, and grooves like hell. Perhaps a tad too repetitive though, but great sounding band with plenty of jazz soloing. She was wearing clothes like she belonged to a male gang. Apparently she used to be attractive on old CD covers but now well she's not the QUOMB. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:00:03 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Travelogue In a message dated 11/26/2002 11:37:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, Chihuahua50 writes: Maybe I'll get it out and listen to it every now and again, but I > really can't imagine why I would do that. I don't think there is a single > song on Travelogue that is better than the original versions. The Travelogue > versions aren't even interestingly different. Frank, I feel your pain...and here's the antidote - Rachel Z Trio, "Moon At The Window". Get it now, you can thank me later! ;~) I was driving my son to school yesterday, and playing this one in the car. My son commented (I quote) "Golly day, that lady can PLAY the piano", and he further commented (during Free Man In Paris which is truly amazing) that even though it was an instrumental you could almost hear the lyrics due to her expressive playing. (I'm sure he was just buttering me up because Christmas approaches, but it doesn't make it any less true). Travelogue is a CD I'll play for background music (If I can't find Norah Jones that is)...it certainly doesn't transport me the way her other work (including TTT) does, making me listen, feel, and analyze. I WILL add that I have no problem with her voice. It's the same fragile voice she displays on Brian Blades' cd, singing a haunting track called 'Steadfast'. Loved it. It's Mendoza's arrangements that I find lacking and dull, dull, dull, and there's nothing in Joni's vocals or the musicians' energy to perk things up. I don't hate it, it's just frustrating for me to hear so much potential and so little realized from an artist whom I put above all others. > Travelogue also reminds me of the times in the late 60s and 70s when older > singers would try to perform some of the "hip" songs of the time. > Oh, I know this too well! Tracking down all the cheesy BSN's done by The Ray Charles Singers, The Kings Road Singers, Jim Nabors (Jimmy you are totally forgiven!), etc. has made my brain squishy! Which is not to dismiss BSN covers! Just this morning I was listening to Dianne Reeves' studio version, and it is very powerful & moving. Made me misty-eyed and made reading Dear Abby all that much more of a challenge. I too hope she bounces back minus the orchestra, and as far as I'm concerned she can lose Shorter as well. His contributions here are mostly the same frilly cliches he's done ever since CMIARS. Klein can stay...he's a great bassist and a talented producer as he's proven on Joni's "Trouble Man" from Kyle Eastwood's CD. But then again, he may be more successful working independently from Joni as opposed to working with her. Bob NP: The Chieftains, "Santiago De Cuba" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:05:04 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: "It's comin' on Christmas" (NJC) In a message dated 11/27/2002 5:56:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, Gertus writes: > On a Joni note, one of my all time favourite albums is Bert and John > (Renbourn, of course) which includes a beautiful version of > Goodbye Pork Pie > Hat. I wonder if Bob has that one? Not yet, Jacky...but I'm aware of it. I'll get it eventually as I'm sure it's quite lovely. Bob NP: The Chieftains, "Dublin In Vigo" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 08:06:46 -0600 From: Subject: critics, blah I forget who posted the argument that there is value in good criticism. I know from experience that a good editor (one who knows her stuff) is a requirement for most writers, and this is a bit different from criticizing a finished product, as you mentioned someone criticizing yours in-progress so you could improve it before it was finished. But I have often thought that if I was in a business where expressing myself was my art -- like music, writing -- I might just avoid reviews altogether, both positive and negative, so as to stay tuned to my own muse and to hell what anyone else had to say. Most of us are far too affected by the perceptions of others, whether we want to be or not. We're too eager to please, and too sensitive to criticism. And then you can twist the old adage to: Those who can, sing and write; those who can't, criticize. Kate du Nord ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 08:06:46 -0600 From: Subject: statue > One end could > be her seated figure "with room to sit beside it." My instant image was of sitting beside the statue and hugging it. Wouldn't we all? Kate du Nord ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:22:43 -0500 From: James Leahy Subject: Joni's Dinner at Prego Here's a gossip column from Nov. 26 National Post (Toronto). Paul Gross, by the way, is a Canadian TV/movie star (is that an oxymoron? -- oops, sorry, Bush is the moron). Before he became ensconced in the firmament, Gross was a part of the memorable cast of Tales of the City (playing the straight hunk Brian, whom Mary Anne Singleton eventually hooks up with.) - ----------------- SCENE Then She Left in a Big Yellow Taxi? Joni Mitchell crosses paths (almost) with Paul Gross Shinan Govani Last Wednesday at Prego: a TV Mountie, a singing icon and a certain gossip columnist. The impeccably pecced Paul Gross missed Joni Mitchell by a whisker, but I caught both of them at the ever-popular eatery. He left just before she got there, although I'm not really sure if he left full. The guy smoked more than he ate ... Mitchell, so you know, arrived en famille, looking well-rested and frolicky. Nothing like the happy-challenged Joni Mitchell profiled in the current W, in which she talks about quitting the music biz ... Rather, the warbler seemed in serious grandmother mode, as she settled at a table with her formerly long-lost daughter Kilauren Gibb, and her kids, wrestling amiably with one of the tykes' coat zippers. All seems peaceful between Mitchell and daughter -- "hummin'" as she puts it in W ... FYI: Earlier that evening, just before Prego, I hear that Joni left a trail of gasps of recognition when she swept into a little cocktail party on Richmond Street. It was for some arty and media type organizations ... "I started smiling at her, because I thought I knew her," a spy tells me, "but I then realized I didn't really know her. Has that ever happened to you?" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 08:51:06 -0600 From: Steve Polifka Subject: RE: never inhaled - njc Well, I just have to say that there are a lot of weird things that can happen when you sing. The audible inhale is usually due to the anticipation of singing the next line or phrase, so your vocal chords restrict. It's difficult to let them relax all the way most times, but it is possible. Joni's vocal problems are not just her vocal chords, I suspect, but diminished lung capacity. (I feel for singers with asthma and other lung problems.)So when you say Joni's voice suffers because of smoking, I think you are on the money. When I heard her do The Dawntreader, I could actually feel her take that deep breath before 'silver- on a promise to be free...' She hits the note, but it is not as graceful as it once was. It makes me sad... Steve At 06:54 PM 11/26/02 -0500, you wrote: >>Has anyone else noticed that all the breaths (inhalations) have >>been deleted >>from T'log? > > >one of our clients is composer john corigliano, and one of his most >successful symphonic pieces is a flute concerto called 'pied piper fantasy', >written for the great irish flutist james galway. > >john had a tape of one performance, and he edited out all of galway's >inhalations, without telling him, and sent it to him. james said he >couldn't believe that he'd been able to play it that well without making >noise inhaling. when they recorded the album, galway's inhales were silent. >corigliano tricked him into believing he could do it. > >story just cracks me up. > >patrick > >np - t'log - love > > Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:03:28 -0600 From: Steve Polifka Subject: Re: Joni's statue Handy's cast in Bronze And he's standing in a little park With a trumpet in his hands Like he's listenin way, way back... At 11:19 PM 11/26/02 -0600, you wrote: >Joni, on her own statue: "I'm beside myself". Joni, you are too much! > >Jimmy, I liked your mention of "I am not some stone commission >Like a statue in a park". > >What about: > >"Joni's cast in bronze, and she's standing in a little park" > >or > >"In the court, they carve your legend with an extra seat" > >Anybody recall any other statue lyrics? > >Mia > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 10:10:27 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Happy Birthday!(njc) Happy Birthday Jenny! Welcome to 33...in 2002. How perfectly symmetrical! Victor - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:42:47 -0600 From: Steve Polifka Subject: Re: Joni's statue It's very obvious that I am NOT paying attention this morning! LOL! Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:33:45 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Today in Joni Smoking History: November 27 1952: Nine-year-old Roberta Joan Anderson buys her first pack of Pell Mell cigarettes and notices that the smoke looks like angel hair 1962: Becomes first Canadian woman ever unanimously voted Miss Winston/Salem 1967: Confused and unable to afford cigarettes, Joni accidentally marries Chuck Mitchell 1979: Presents Georgia O'Keefe with two cartons of Virginia Slims Menthol and a lovely cow skull ashtray 1983: Meets Lakota chief, extends thanks to all Native Americans for tobacco 1992: Accidentally puts out three cigarettes on greedy Guatemalan maid 1998: Tough California smoking ban takes effect, Joni blames record companies and all younger performers 2000: Booed off stage during finale of the Stop Smoking Now or Die/2000 benefit concert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 9:33:41 -0800 From: "Russell Bowden" Subject: Stuffin' Gang, Happy Thanksgiving to all....I'll be in Vegas for Sheryl Crow and The Rolling Stones at the MGM Grand.... Love, Russ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:44:02 -0500 From: "Erica L. Trudelle" Subject: Re: Joni's statue Mia wrote: Anyone recall any other statue lyrics? "...but the statue in hher garden, he always looked the same..." "...till he finds a lady statue standing in a door...." It's funny that I logged on to find this post, I've been listening to "Blue Boy" this afternoon and was humming it as I turned on the computer :) Erica _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:55:33 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Traveloge - the good, the bad, the ugly The following are opinions, not criticisms. They are totally subjective and personal feelings about the songs on disc 1. No point in trying to argue with it (although commentary is welcome!) since these are my FEELINGS not CRITICISMS and probably won't change. And this is not a long-winded account. 1. Otis and Marlena - love it. It's the best on this CD. I love the sparcity of the arrangement and the perkiness in her voice. I've always loved this song and this version has heightened the drama. 2. Amelia - this version made me reflect on the lyrics much more deeply than the original did, and is much more "arial" in feeling. I could imagine the sky and the clouds and the vast expanse of prairie land much more easily here. When she sang, "I dreamed of 747s over geometric farms..." the vision of that image was so strong here. 3. You Dream Flat Tires - excellent track! The funk organ someone mentioned is to-die-for. It's swingin' and, again, I like this version better than the original - it's found its best setting amid the orchestra and a 1940s pastiche. 4. Love - almost made me cry, but not quite. It tickled the tear ducts, is all. Still, a gorgeous version. [All songs on this album from Wild Things Run Fast I find much more agreeable and emotional than their originals, with the exception of Chinese Cafe whose original can never be outdone.] 5. Woodstock - didn't work for me. I've never liked the melody of the song anyhow, even the original is too much for me. This one I'll probably skip when playing the album, just as I skip the original on Ladies of the Canyon and Hits. 6. Slouching Towards Bethlehem - again, didn't work. I really don't like the choir. And when Joni sings, "Head of a maaaaaaaan" it sounds like she's going to combust. The production is almost melodramatic, to the point of being slightly humourous, which is not good. 7. JudgEment of the Moon and Stars - this one I'm sort of ambivalent about. I can take it or leave it. 8. The Sire of Sorrow - really didn't work for me. The instrumentation has an almost cartoonish feel to it, as it did on Slouching. Sort of like Bugs & Tweety in therapy. The spritely, almost mocking orchestra does not do the song justice. It weighs it down to the point of parody. And the choir brought to mind some tuxedoed group of white men in top hats and gloves: "We don't despise your chastening..." There's no feeling in their vocals - very wimpy for Antagonists. Joni's original is one of my favourite songs of all time, so this version had a lot to live up to for me, and didn't. It lost all its urgency and emotionalism for me. 9. For the Roses - this one really worked for me. I still prefer the original but thought the orchestra worked wonderfully, and the lyrics take on the life and spirit of the new, critical Joni Mitchell who is fed up with the biz. Very appropriate track for this record, for this place and time. 10. Trouble Child - another hit. I loved the original and this one adds new shades of colour and depth to the notes of the song. Joni's voice is in good form here. 11. God Must Be A Boogie Man - never liked this song. Still don't. I think the point of this record is not to make versions that are BETTER than the original, which would be a pointless and probably futile task. The objective is to prove (maybe to herself) that her songs have endless interpretive possibilities, even orchestral. Joni grew up listening to classical music and always had the urge to compose orchestral music, and now here she is, 50 years later, bringing that vision to life in its fullest form. I totally respect that and will take the album on that account. It's a marvelous collection. As for her voice, it's not that bad. I've heard worse. I think she is singing the best she can and it comes across as skillfull, nine times out of ten. It's even beautiful in some places. If you hate her voice, there is nothing much anyone can do or say to change your mind - it's a matter of opinion and taste. In the tradition of hasty journalism, I give the first disc a B. Miniscule thoughts on disc 2 are imminent. - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:58:26 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: has it been 20 years? I read something online that said that Joni and Larry were married 20 years ago today. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20021121/ap_en_ot/entertainm ent_history_1 Yikes! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 10:03:02 -0800 (PST) From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: "Joni bewildered by plan....." Gees, this "Joni" person is pretty clever with words. Maybe she should WRITE SOME SONGS!!!!!!! Lama - --- Mark or Travis wrote: > LMAO!! > > How can you not love this woman?? Joni said, >> "And then I could come and sit there and >> when someone asks how I feel >> about it I can honestly say, >> 'I'm beside myself'." Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 10:07:55 -0800 (PST) From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Travelogue TRAVELOGUE doesn't work for some people. That's cool. There's no way I can rebut something that is given a fair chance and is rejected. So far, almost all of the negative reviews have been respectful and that's an advantage that rightfully comes with having a huge catalog of well-regarded work. All of our old favorite versions are safe in our collections, of course. If TRAVELOGUE was magically empowered to replace those other versions, we'd all have reason to be upset. As it is, some people have listened and found no reason to prefer Vince's new "takes". That's cool. I'm sure there are some people who rejected Fred Simon's takes and David Lahm's takes, and Pat Metheny's takes. Lord knows no one wants to hear "Lama Sings Joni Mitchell". I'm not twisting arms and I'm not gonna invoke the cliched advice, "Give it another chance! You'll love it!" Me? I knew I'd get a wonderfully vivid studio version of my beloved "Judgement Of the Moon And Stars (Ludwig's Tune)". I did. I heard it from the 15th row during the "Both Sides Now" tour in Detroit in 2000 and I knew what to expect and I was _eager_ to get it. It was the first thing I played. I played that one track; I stopped the player. I swallowed a lump in my throat and sat, satisfied, in silence for a few minutes. It's bombastic but there are times when bombast works. "Ludwig's Tune" is a big statement about the very essence of creativity, talent, and fate. The song now has an alternative take that fleshes out the scale of the story. It works for me but you'll get no lectures from me on force-feeding TRAVELOGUE. Lama Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 10:09:52 -0800 (PST) From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: "Penitence of Spirit" Yo, Paul! Welcome back from the shadows. Maybe you already know this but "penitence of spirit" is the working title of the PBS film, due in Spring 03. Thanks for the link. Lama - --- Paul Castle wrote: > > To this day she bridles at the application of the > term > > "confessional" to her 1970s songs because to her, > > confession implies information extracted under > duress. > > The term she prefers is "penitence of spirit". > http://members.ozemail.com.au/~ghostv/joni.html > > That would make a great song theme, Joni > C'mon - get that guitar out of its case! Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:05:27 -0000 From: "Chris Marshall" Subject: RE: Travelogue Lama wrote:- > Lord knows no one wants to hear "Lama Sings Joni Mitchell". Oh but Jim, we *so* do :-) Northeast Jonifest 2003. Put it in your diary, and get practicing fella. And... there's hope for me yet. I've been listening to the web tracks, and they're growing on me. Quite a lot in fact. (Haven't managed to get the CD yet.) After BSN, I was afraid that Travelodge (LOL) would leave me out in the cold without a room for me. :-) - --Chris np: Car On A Hill... just the mood I'm in. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:56:58 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: RE: Travelogue > After BSN, I was afraid that Travelodge (LOL) Might this be the old Cactus Tree Motel, best known for its "blue room"? ; ) Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:01:55 EST From: Seulbzzaj@aol.com Subject: Travelogue Hi Joni Fans, I've was a member of this list apx. 2 years ago, but couldn't keep up with all the messages. The release of Joni's Travelogue prompted me to come back, but on Digest form, with Joni Only content. I'm surprised to see the number of negative posts on this album. As for the discussions about Joni's voice, as one gets older, the voice always becomes lower, and smoking does have an effect on the voice. I find her voice to be more beautiful than ever, and also, I feel that she sings withe more emotional depth than she ever mustered up before, so that's saying a lot. I think that you have to listen to this album repeatedly, to get used to her new interpretations of these classic songs. I was not craz about "The Last Time I Saw Richard" when I first heard it, but now I feel that it's the definitve version of the song. I find that the orchestration of "Sex Kills" is too bombastic, and I prefer the Turbulent Indigo version of "The Sire Of Sorrow." As for "Be Cool," "Just Like This Train," "Amelia," "You Dream Flat Tires," "Refuge Of The Roads," "Heijira," and "The Circle Game," I love all of them. Happy Thanksgiving to all of you, Scott Merrell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:15:20 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: critics, blah >Most of us are far too affected by the perceptions of others, whether we >want to be or not. We're too eager to please, and too sensitive to >criticism. > >And then you can twist the old adage to: >Those who can, sing and write; those who can't, criticize. > this is what i think too Kate. > >Kate du Nord ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 23:51:48 +0100 From: "laurent Fonquerne" Subject: Re: Travelogue I got the Cd just Yesterday and I think you're completely right. Joni's not the kind a person who makes a record just to make a record... She trys to transcend her own titles to make "the definitive version" of the songs. Remember BSN, Who doesnt't cry on Both sidesNow or A Case of You ? I'll say they are two kinds of productions in that double CD. The modern ones and the classical ones. Just listen to Hejira "It's really a test for us who are really fans". Hejira is now a classical song with modern jazz arrangements. Just because you can't translate that song into a song with only classical arrangements. You know that better than me. The caffee, the freeway, the large US spaces, you can't only make "classical arrangements" with that song. I really love that version of Hejira. I really love that version of Woodstock, I really love that CD, I Really love her. My English is not perfect and I can't explain more why, but guys this is not only the background CD you're playing, drinking a whisky coke. Just listen to it ten times and more. It's very clever and very beautiful. Laurent From Paris. - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 9:01 PM Subject: Travelogue > Hi Joni Fans, > > I've was a member of this list apx. 2 years ago, but couldn't keep up with > all the messages. The release of Joni's Travelogue prompted me to come back, > but on Digest form, with Joni Only content. > > I'm surprised to see the number of negative posts on this album. As for the > discussions about Joni's voice, as one gets older, the voice always becomes > lower, and smoking does have an effect on the voice. I find her voice to be > more beautiful than ever, and also, I feel that she sings withe more > emotional depth than she ever mustered up before, so that's saying a lot. I > think that you have to listen to this album repeatedly, to get used to her > new interpretations of these classic songs. I was not craz about "The Last > Time I Saw Richard" when I first heard it, but now I feel that it's the > definitve version of the song. I find that the orchestration of "Sex Kills" > is too bombastic, and I prefer the Turbulent Indigo version of "The Sire Of > Sorrow." As for "Be Cool," "Just Like This Train," "Amelia," "You Dream Flat > Tires," "Refuge Of The Roads," "Heijira," and "The Circle Game," I love all > of them. > > Happy Thanksgiving to all of you, > > Scott Merrell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:50:04 -0500 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: Today in Joni Smoking History: November 27 dear les: this is one for the site! brilliant, bob! especially 1998. >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of >Murphycopy@aol.com >Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 11:34 AM >To: joni@smoe.org >Subject: Today in Joni Smoking History: November 27 > > >1952: Nine-year-old Roberta Joan Anderson buys her first pack of Pell Mell >cigarettes and notices that the smoke looks like angel hair > >1962: Becomes first Canadian woman ever unanimously voted Miss >Winston/Salem > >1967: Confused and unable to afford cigarettes, Joni accidentally marries >Chuck Mitchell > >1979: Presents Georgia O'Keefe with two cartons of Virginia Slims >Menthol and >a lovely cow skull ashtray > >1983: Meets Lakota chief, extends thanks to all Native Americans >for tobacco > >1992: Accidentally puts out three cigarettes on greedy Guatemalan maid > >1998: Tough California smoking ban takes effect, Joni blames >record companies >and all younger performers > >2000: Booed off stage during finale of the Stop Smoking Now or Die/2000 >benefit concert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:03:42 -0700 From: Sarah Gibb Subject: New - Joni Mitchell Saskatoon statue committee This is just to let everyone know that a committee has been established in Saskatoon, for the purposes of fundraising for a Joni Mitchell statue in the town. In a recent article on the local newspaper the StarPhoenix, Joni Mitchell said, if such a statue were to be commissioned, she'd like to see a bench, with one side of it a sculpture of her, where people could come to sit and think. She said she'd come and sit there herself, then could truly say she was "beside herself". Although this was probably tongue in cheek, several of us though it was a lovely idea, so we've set up a committee called The Joni Mitchell's Beside Herself Fund, and we aim to raise money and awareness to get this bench made. I'm British and came over to live in Saskatoon last year to get married to a local man. The first thing I noticed when I visited the downtown area was the absence of a Joni Mitchell statue. We have one of Ghandi, and several of local sportsmen, but none for the greatest living singer/songwriter. If anyone on this list is from Saskatoon, please get in touch with me at sl.m@shaw.ca, and join the committee. I'll write again soon with our bank account details and the committee's email address, if anyone wants to donate or help in any other way. Thank you to the person who suggested: "He will come and very soon/He will find a lady statue/In a park in Saskatoon/Saskatoon..." We're going to have a poster made up for local distribution, so maybe we could use this on the poster. The Joni Mitchell's Beside Herself Fund membership so far is: Sarah Gibb, Mark Salzl and Tina Merrifield. I'm a freelance writer, Mark is a forestry researcher in B.C. (originally from Saskatoon) and Tina is with the communications department at the university of Saskatoon. Any offers of help or suggestions would be gratefully received. Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:44:17 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Today in Joni Smoking History: November 27 This gave me a great, coughing laugh this morning, too. However, as one who would know and has the date burned in her soul, the final vestiges (to include bars) of the rotten California smoking ban went into effect in 1997 ;-) Update: some establishments here and there are still defying the bar ban in L.A. while others have come up with alternatives which include beautiful, cozy and heated outdoor spaces ;-) Kakki > dear les: > > this is one for the site! brilliant, bob! > > especially 1998. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 20:08:22 EST From: KLCass21@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #362 In a message dated 11/26/2002 9:46:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, Andrew writes: > Stay tuned for my impressions of THE MUSIC, if you're interested. Andrew - Glad to hear you finally obtained your copy. I look forward to reading your musical impressions of T'log. You could write about your stroll to the mailbox and I'd be captivated! As someone on the list posted, you are wise for a man of your age. Thanks for sharing it. Kurt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 20:45:01 EST From: Hejira924@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #361 In a message dated 11/26/2002 3:02:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, les@jmdl.com writes: << Joni depicts the television news camera > images of the towers on fire, the faces in the smoke, and a president > bearing the weight of the catastrophe wrought by people whose motives are > unfathomable to most of us. >> As someone who is a longtime Joni fan who has not yet bought Travelogue, but has himself lived through Sept. 11, working 3 blocks away from the WTC when it happened and still suffering respiratory problems from it, I would have to say the meaning in the pictures is in the eye of the beholder. Why is a photo of President Bush interpreted as him "bearing the weight of the catastrophe," when it could just as easily be interpreted as the "guilty party"? From my perspective, he did too little too late, 3000 lives are cheap compared to the millions of dollars he spent distorting the politics of this country to keep himself and Republicans in power in 2002. If you think Joni has turned him into the hero that the rest of this misguided nation has, I think I will be more disappointed in her simplistic mind than in her losing the ability to write any new songs of substance in a time when we could have used them. What a sell out to repackage two albums worth of previously released songs! Is she planning on retiring? Alas, she is just too weak or insubstantial at her age. I would grieve for her, but I'm grieving too much for the loss of our democracy and freedoms. The capitalist big money interests have won, and Joni is just a pawn in their game. Sad! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:17:12 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Travelogue Hey you all - Andrew, Lama, Scott and Laurent, Have enjoyed your posts very much. I have found Travelogue/Travelodge (hahaha) so complex, dense and deep that I have not been able to fully take it all in, so I feel a lot of listening is ahead of me. I don't think the entirety of the music is 100% perfect, (but what is really "perfect") But I really love Mendoza's work on this album. I think it is very beautiful. I've been following Joni since the beginning and she has been an extemely major influence on me and a source of inspiration for my own personal art. I did something today that I have never done before - started singing out loud "Dawntreader" outside work while on my smoking break. I am re-inspired very much. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:39:01 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Big Walt in SF - njc I am worried about our friend Walt. He hasn't posted lately, and he has not responded to or even opened (you can tell from one AOL account to another) my e-mail. Has anyone heard from him? Thanks, --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:52:26 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: A Memoir Thanks for the info, Paul I cannot wait to hear it all from Joni herself. Won't that be beyond great?! I hope she goes on and on about everything, the brilliant talker that she is. Happy Thanksgiving to everyone including those who don't celebrate this specific holiday. Good food and drink and cheer to all. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:54:52 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Thoughts on disc 2 1. Well, it opens marvelously with "Be Cool" - a really fabulous version of it. As I said in an earlier post, all of the songs from Wild Things Run Fast, with the exception of Chinese Cafe, are given their ideal setting on Travelogue. It's as if this is what they were originally written for, maybe what Joni had in mind for them all along. Mendoza does great work on this track and Joni's voice is in good form. 2. Just Like This Train is a mediocre affair. The band does well at capturing some of the subtleties of the original but for the most part it loses its sense of fun and quirkiness. I always loved Just Like This Train for its very odd-ball phrasing, but it's lost here in this ultra-serious landscape. 3. Sex Kills is fantastic! She really gets it down on this one. I was very surprised by that, actually. In contrast to what I just wrote above, this song was ultra-serious to begin with and here it's got a more ironic feel to it. It ends wonderfully with that big crash of horns and Joni's extended finale: "Sex Kiiiiiiiiiiiiils!" 4. Refuge of the Roads is one of my favourites from Hejira. The harp work is excellent on this version. Here again, the orchestra added depth to the imagery and brought a more reflective mood to the song, just as it did on Amelia. 5. Hejira - well, nothing can beat the original. It's my favourite JM composition and holds enormous significance to me. But it's nice to have an alternate version by the artist herself, so I'll take it on that account. It's a lovely version at that. 6. Chinese Cafe/Unchained Melody - The only track from Wild Things Run Fast that doesn't quite work in this context. Thematically, it works marvelously, as a reflection on memories and the passing of time. Ideal for a "travelogue" of songs. But musically, it just doesn't fit the orchestra, or rather, the orchestra just doesn't fit the song. 7. Cherokee Louise. A great song to begin with and a much more grown up version here on Travelogue. The frantic phrasing of the original, like children skipping over bridges and train tracks, is subdued to a very slow and fluid re-telling. The orchestra here does tend to bury the subtleties a bit. 8. The Dawntreader. This version is superb! It evokes a wisdom and depth that the original didn't. Joni's lowered voice is purrrrfect for this rendition. It's lilting and soft and she doesn't over-do it, vocally. 9. The Last Time I Saw Richard. The original is one of the most wordy songs of her career, certainly one of the most conversational. Lots of "I said," "He said" phrasing. That just doesn't work with an orchestra. I did get a chuckle out of Joni's barmaid: 'Drink up now, it's gettin' on time to close!' much like her Miles of Isles performance. Totally fishnet stockins! But, basically, it's too conversational for a languid, orchestral backdrop. 10. Borderline is fantastic. It gains an added air of severity and Mendoza catches a nice little melody in the song and plays it up well. It's quite a sad song on this record, less reflective and more conclusive. 11. The Circle Game. This one almost moved me to tears too. It's a good song to end on, sort of noting that the seasons will continue to go round and round and round, regardless of age, that there may be more travelogues to come. The inclusion of this song indicates to me that this is not the end for Joni. There is something of a promise of more to come. I think Wayne over did it a bit here, too much spiralling sax. So, I like disc 2 better than the first. I give this disc an A. I haven't looked at the bonus gallery yet, but will do right after I send this off. This is a wonderful collection of songs. I wish more people saw it for what it is - a retrospective with enormous scope worthy of big sound and lots of attention. It demands patience, no question. But it's worth it. So worth it. - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:07:07 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #361 (njc) Hejira, It makes me very sad that you feel the way you do. Bush is the "guilty party?" "Too little, too late?" What parallel universes we all must live in. Do facts and reality never come into consciousness in the whole scheme of things? Do you mean to tell me you never heard of Al Qaida bombing U.S. citizens on several occasions from as far back as '93? It kills me, really, but it also makes me think there is no such thing as following facts anymore. Everything has to be partisan. What a narrow way to go. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 00:24:59 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni never inhaled >Has anyone else noticed that all the breaths (inhalations) have been deleted >from T'log? As an advertising copywriter, this is something I've done many >times while mixing final voice for mostly older actors or voice-over talent >who sort of wheeze or rattle during inhalation. I've never noticed it having >been done in music, although I'm sure this isn't a first. I hear Joni's inhalations, and no wheezing. But this reminds me of an anecdote about Barbra Streisand. Apparently, early in her career a recording engineer took it upon himself to "clean up" her vocals by removing all those "distracting" inhalations (and in those pre-ProTools days that meant physically slicing and dicing recording tape; doing that for a whole album's worth of tracks would have been an enormous task). Of course, the result sounded totally unnatural, and when Streisand heard it she flipped out (rightly so) and demanded they be put back in. I'm sure the engineer was very sorry by the time he finished. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:29:17 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: Joni never inhaled >>>Of course, the result sounded totally unnatural, and when Streisand heard it she flipped out (rightly so) and demanded they be put back in. I'm sure the engineer was very sorry by the time he finished.>>> Any mortal in the wake of a Streisand Diva-fit is a pitiable creature indeed. - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 00:43:49 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni never inhaled/Dole - njc Fred writes: << But this reminds me of an anecdote about Barbra Streisand. Apparently, early in her career a recording engineer took it upon himself to "clean up" her vocals >> And this reminds me of an anecdote about Bob Dole that I know is true because I knew and worked with the people involved. They were a group of advertising people who worked on a Dole political TV campaign. After working for many hours with a film editor to put together a TV spot, they decided to leave it in the editor's hands and come back and see his edit in the morning. Sometime during the night, the film editor began to be bothered by the fact that throughout the footage, Bob Dole only shook hands with his left hand. Well, you probably guessed it . . . The editor took it upon himself to "flip" all the images of Dole shaking with his left. In the morning the ad agency people were presented with a hew Dole for President commercial that featured a new -- healed! -- Bob Dole. --Bob, who would rather see Bob Dole advertise *himself* than Viagra ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 01:20:16 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Re: Aging, smoking singing Jerry finally kicked. For good. Honest. A shame he didn't clean up though. Lama Victor said, > Jerry should really kick off that heroin addiction. > I'll bet he's still shooting up. His voice would > sound so much better if he would just quit. Bob Murphy said, >> Artists who have died of heroin overdoses don't get the >> level of criticism for their habits that Joni gets >> for her nicotine addiction. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #529 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)