From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #527 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, November 27 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 527 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Carly Simon bares her soul (NJC) [colin ] Re: njc [Catherine McKay ] Travelogue - finally! [Little Bird ] Re: "Joni bewildered by plan....." [Les Irvin ] Travelogue - some first/second/third impressions [Catherine McKay ] Aging, smoking singing ["Kate Bennett" ] Aging, smoking singing ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: Travelodge ["Heather" ] Re: Aging, smoking singing ["kakki" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #523 - Aging, smoking singing ["kakki" ] Re: Subject: Guns (NJC) [vince ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #362 [StDoherty@aol.com] Re: Carly Simon bares her soul (NJC) ["Mark or Travis" ] RE: Subject: Guns (NJC) ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Nodes (njc) ["kakki" ] Re: "Joni bewildered by plan....." ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Joni appearances ["kakki" ] Re: Travelogue - some first/second/third impressions ["Mark or Travis" ] RE: Nodes (njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] Travelogue [Chihuahua50@aol.com] Re: Nodes (njc) ["kakki" ] Re: Travelogue [vince ] Re: Travelogue [Janet Hess ] Joni's statue ["mia ortlieb" ] Re: Aging, smoking singing ["J. G." ] Re: Art criticism - why? [Michael Paz ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 00:25:16 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Carly Simon bares her soul (NJC) she hasn't had any tuicks-none at all. she photgraphs evry well. rewal life is another story. she has had a mastectomy tho. which was for health reasons obviously. SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 11/26/2002 4:11:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, steve@psitech.com writes: > > > >>...and that's a pretty sexy Christmas outfit she has! :) >> >> > >Yessiree, I'll meet her under the mistletoe ANY day...she has certainly aged better than JT who now looks like her Dad. He probably hasn't had all the tucks that she has though... > >And whattya think? I'll bet "River" is nowhere to be found on her Christmas CD! ;~) > >Bob > >NP: The Chieftains & Sissel, "Siuil A Run" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:32:53 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: njc --- Mickey Morose wrote: > Hi > This is my first posting, my name's Mike and I live > in england. Welcome to the list, Mickey/Mike (my Dad's nickname was Mick - at least that's what his parents and sisters and my Mum called him.) I got Travelogue today - finally. Yeesh, they already had it in France - and Sicily! - but they can't get it in Canada until a week after the Yanks. Enough of my whining. I've GOT IT! I've finally got it! (Now I'll have to find something else to whine about, dammit.) ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:34:54 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Travelogue - finally! I headed up Bank Street to the HMV on the corner of Sparks and there she was, two full rows of Joni looking longingly, sensually, out from her dark canvas at the passers by. The place was packed with noon-hour Christmas shoppers and a few of the albums had been snapped up already. I hastily grabbed my copy; $35.99 seemed more than worth it to me. The guy at the cash seemed happy I was buying it: "It's great," he said. "You'll love it." He was only about 28, three years my senior, and it pleased me to intereact with someone else my age, only briefly, who had affection for Joni. I rushed home, after stopping to get a few things at the grocery store, and tore open the package... Astounding! This is by far the most beautiful package design I've ever seen for a CD, excluding special editions, which always tend to be a little more glamourous. But this was exquisite. I gave it the attention it deserved, not playing the album until I had thoroughly scoured the contents of the design. I love the outer casing containing the CD booklet and the lyric booklet - it's like opening a little treasure trove, which I'm sure is the idea. The paintings within are incredible. They are so beautiful. They actually evoke a kind of subconscious soundtrack in and of themselves and their relevance to the album is subtle yet clear. When I saw Joni's palms with the golden eggs, that famous passage from For The Roses sprung to mind: "They toss around your latest golden egg/Speculation/Well, who's to know if the next one in the nest will glitter for them so." And we've been tossing around this golden egg for a week now with very mixed ideas about how well it glitters in the nest. My favourite painting is the cover portrait. Upon closer inspection it is extremely sensual and sexy, and this is coming from a man who is not attracted to women. The parted lips, the bedroom eyes, the shine of blond hair, the plume of smoke framing her face and the glisten of an earing. God, I wanted to kiss her! Joni's vanity is put to excellent use on that portrait - it's ghostly, haunting and so evocative. I'd love to see the "inverse" paintings all in a line, in a gallery. From the World Trade Centre to Osama, the bible in hand to the American flag, one after the other. Spectacular. My boyfriend and I pondered over these ones for a good 20 minutes, absorbing every detail. I also loved the very fractured photos of Joni's garden and her little puppy, the odd inclusion of her hand with a paint brush or a wayward foot stepping out onto the patio. She's the best. She is just the best. I'm not sure what else to say except that the presentation of this album is so classy and timeless. I may end up buying another copy of this album sometime down the road for posterity. Keep it safe for my little nephew to one day pass on to his children, etc. Stay tuned for my impressions of THE MUSIC, if you're interested. I need the night to absorb it all and probably won't post my opinions until tomorrow morning. I'm very excited about listening to this! love, Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:47:51 -0700 From: Les Irvin Subject: Re: "Joni bewildered by plan....." This expanded article appeared in the Regina Leader-Post today as well: - ------------------------ Mitchell bewildered by effort to honour her with statue by Darren Bernhardt Regina Leader-Post November 26, 2002 SASKATOON -- Joni Mitchell had yet to eat breakfast and shake the sleep from her head but her humour and humility were thoroughly intact about the idea of a statue honouring her in downtown Saskatoon. "I guess it would be a good place for birds to perch," she remarked. Mitchell was in Saskatoon for the weekend, spending time with her mother, Myrtle Anderson, before jetting back to Los Angeles on Monday. When asked about the idea, which went to council as correspondence last week, Mitchell teetered between being grateful and bewildered. "It's just such a strange question to be woken up to," she said. "It would be a true honour, it really would. But is this not something usually done post-mortem? "If I am alive to see it happen, I would hope it could be a decent likeness. I get all sorts of artwork done by fans and it can get pretty distorted in the proportions. ... My face caricaturizes easily. I can tell from my fan drawings." The idea of a statue of the multi-talented artist -- painter, poet, singer, songwriter and producer -- was actually raised by a British Columbia man. Mark Salzl wrote to Saskatoon's city council about the possibility of commissioning the statue. A fan of Mitchell's for many years. Salzl thought it only fitting the city recognize and celebrate her achievements as others already have. She has been inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, is listed No. 5 on VH1's list of "The 100 Greatest Women of Rock and Roll" and was given the Order of Canada earlier this year, the nation's highest honour for lifetime achievement. "She is surely one of the most famous daughters of the city. The city is even the subject of some of her songs," Salzl wrote. It is also the subject of her artwork. The Delta Bessborough appears in the background of her 1969 album cover for Clouds. Mitchell is in the foreground holding a prairie lily (the province's official flower) as the South Saskatchewan River reflects a stunning crimson sunset. "She's got stacks of trophies and awards," said Anderson. "But it's always nice to be recognized by your hometown." Mitchell admits her love affair with Saskatoon continues -- from visiting frequently to choosing the Mendel Art Gallery in 2000 for her art show. "I think it shows how much I'm in love with this town and think about it even when I'm not here," she said. Salzl believes the city should indicate the feeling is mutual. "It's worldly for a small Prairie city to have a statue of Gandhi but it has overlooked its own. I think it is incumbent upon City Hall to include the honouring of these famous and influential people in their yearly business," he said. The city does not have a program for commissioning artwork. Sculptures are donated through a sponsorship group. The Gandhi bust was donated by the Government of India by way of the India Consulate in Vancouver and a local India cultural group. The Denny Carr statue was made possible through fundraising efforts by his friends and family. "What we suggested to him (Salzl) is to find private sponsorship," said John Penner, the city's urban design coordinator. Salzl is determined to take up the effort another way, even without the city's assistance. "If all else fails, I was thinking of getting an existing group to take up the charge. If that wasn't possible, I'll try to start some sort of group to get this done," he said. From Paradise Hill, 75 kilometres northeast of Lloydminster, Salzl was educated at SIAST in Saskatoon. "Saskatoon is my 'home' city and I would like to return there to work or retire," he said. Admitting to feeling a little uncomfortable with the idea of her image being set upon a pedestal, a statue gives a sense of being monumental, something contrary to her nature. "I really liked playing in small clubs where the platform wasn't very high so you could step down and fraternize," Mitchell said. "And I feel that way when I come home to Saskatoon since the art show. There's a greater comfortability because I think people think of me more as a local and less exotic. ..." Mitchell suggested "something more functional" like a bench. One end could be her seated figure "with room to sit beside it." "If the statue is about me, it's about the essence of music and poetry coming from this town -- and painting. But rather than strap a guitar on there or have a handful of paintbrushes, maybe there's another way to make it more contemplative," she said. "Somewhere people could sit and muse. "And then I could come and sit there and when someone asks how I feel about it I can honestly say, 'I'm beside myself'." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:54:28 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Travelogue - some first/second/third impressions I had already heard and played a number of times the pieces from the Nonesuch site and those that another lister (I think?) posted. This album needs to be heard at least two or three times to come together. First impressions can be misleading. I've gone back and forth between thinking, "Yuck!" and "Holy crap, this thing is sublime!" My initial reaction to some of the songs was, fer Chrissakes, willya lay off the cigarettes? You sound like you've got emphysema! But of course, all that has now been said. Let's not talk about smoking now. I haven't heard the whole disc yet. Those songs I have heard are all songs I already heard from the downloads. The CD versions are, of course, better than the downloaded ones (I did burn a CDR of the ones I was able to copy from that tripod site and they weren't bad at all.) Here's a few impressions from my point-a-view. Flat Tires - well, hey, this is the song as it should have been done. I didn't care much for it on WTRF, but this one is great. Kind of like Peggy Lee, after she lost the little-girl sound, but before she became so laid-back as to be semi-comatose. This one swings, baby. Love that funk organ. Give me more! Slouching toward Bethlehem - lots of forward motion and dynamic sound in this. Stunningly arranged, this one. Lots of "beasty" noises from the orchestra, like elephant trumpetings and lions-and-tigers-and-bears (oh my!) growling and roaring. Sounds like the rough beast is moving relentlessly toward you, and past you and then on away from you. Think Juggernaut. Think big-budget bible movies, or Liz Taylor as Cleopatra. Crowd scenes, animals, all that stuff. Think the circus is coming to town as interpreted by Stephen King. (Mwa-ha-ha - the circus of eeeevil!) Be glad it didn't stop to eat you on its way through town to bigger things. The Last Time I Saw Richard - feels like Joni is speaking right in your ear. Wow - how LOW can you GO? Otis and Marlena - timeless and timely. (Small digression here - I always thought Otis would look like Abner Kravitz from the "Bewitched" TV show for some reason; and Marlena would be a tall blonde leggy woman with a big hat and dark glasses, maybe an ex-beauty-queen or wannabe. Kind of like Joni but more princess-y - one of those women who just *has* to have the latest everything.) Back to the CD track though - does the original DJRD version have that clarinet or oboe or high sax tweedling "by the dawn's early light" at the end of it too? Must give it a listen. Cherokee Louise - well, I think Joni captures a little-girl quality in the opening few lines; almost like she has become her younger self once again and remembers it like it just happened. One of the questions I would ask Joni if ever I met her would be, "So, why WERE the cops after Louise? Is it because she stabbed or attacked her foster father? (Jeez, I hope so!) or is it just because she ran away?" Has Joni ever said? This question has plague me ever since I heard the song. I'd also like to know what ever became of Louise; like is she OK?" More later. Maybe. Maybe not. TTFN. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:56:19 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Travelogue - finally! now njc --- Little Bird wrote: > I headed up Bank Street to the HMV on the corner of > Sparks and there she was, two full rows of Joni > looking longingly, sensually, out from her dark > canvas at the passers by. The place was packed with > noon-hour Christmas shoppers and a few of the albums > had been snapped up already. I hastily grabbed my > copy; $35.99 seemed more than worth it to me. Oh durn. I paid $38.99, but the guy at the cash at Indigo gave me a chocolate. Let's think of it as a $3.00 Hershey's kiss. I could've gone to hmv but I didn't feel like walking another block. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:57:44 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: "Joni bewildered by plan....." --- Les Irvin wrote: > This expanded article appeared in the Regina > Leader-Post today as well: > ------------------------ > Mitchell bewildered by effort to honour her with > statue > by Darren Bernhardt > Regina Leader-Post November 26, 2002 > > Mitchell suggested "something more functional" like > a bench. One end could > be her seated figure "with room to sit beside it." > "If the statue is about me, it's about the essence > of music and poetry > coming from this town -- and painting. But rather > than strap a guitar on > there or have a handful of paintbrushes, maybe > there's another way to make > it more contemplative," she said. "Somewhere people > could sit and muse. > > "And then I could come and sit there and when > someone asks how I feel about > it I can honestly say, 'I'm beside myself'." Oh, that Joni - so funny and so practical! I love it! ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 01:45:19 +0000 From: "Timothy Spong" Subject: "judgement" vs. "judgment"; Franklin Shea's compliment; "Travelogue" (SJC) I. A list member questioned, "What's with the extra 'e' in 'judgment'?" Someone else said there isn't any, and it looks better with. Someone else says either is acceptable. Well, yes, but it depends on the circumstances. British English, to which Canadian English largely adheres, has "judgement" as either the preferred, or perhaps the only permissible, spelling. It appears that way in my New English Bible, New Testament, for instance. Dictionaries of American (U.S.A.) English show "judgment" first as the preferred spelling, and then, "judgement." The AP Stylebook and Liability Handbook shows "judgment" as THE spelling to use when writing copy for them, or newspapers which use their standards. Perhaps an exception would be allowed when quoting directly from another printed sources which uses two "e"s, or perhaps not: It requires the spelling of one of the major political parties in the United Kingdom as "Labor Party," even though, clearly, the proper name of this organization is "Labour Party." II. Thanks to Franklin Shea for his compliment on Saturday for my post a few days earlier about "imagery" as a defining mark of real poetry. III. I have a copy of "Travelogue," and I really like it --- some tracks better than others --- no surprise here. Tim Spong Dover, Del., U.S.A. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:41:25 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Carly Simon bares her soul (NJC) In a message dated 11/26/2002 7:26:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, colin@tantra-apso.com writes: > she hasn't had any tucks-none at all. Well then, I stand corrected. I assumed she had...so that's good for her that she still looks that good just by taking care of herself! Thanks for setting me straight. Bob NP: Bush, "Everything Zen" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:44:06 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Travelogue - some first/second/third impressions In a message dated 11/26/2002 7:55:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, anima_rising@yahoo.ca writes: > Love that funk organ. Give me more! > Sorry, that's it. But ain't it nice while it lasts?! :~) Bob, trying to remember to say "I would have liked more Billy Preston" as opposed to "There should be more Billy Preston" ;~) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:46:53 -0500 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V2002 #523 - Aging, smoking singing Has Joni really toured that extensively to have her voice affected that much? Did Joni have a vocal teacher / coach? innocent questions ... Heather - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of kakki Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 12:16 PM To: Jenny Goodspeed; messling@enter.net; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #523 - Aging, smoking singing Jenny wrote: > Kakki - is it you who said Joni had throat surgery? > Do you know what it was for? I think she had some kind of polyps in her throat. She told a story about it at the PWWAM taping. I'll see if I can find some cites to it later. > On Joni's early recordings, I do not hear any vocal > strain - her high notes are light and in her head > voice where they should be. Performing live in large > venues is a whole different ball game, though, and > it's possible she did some damage in that way. But, I > have no idea if that is the case. I have no idea, either, it's just a theory. I would also think that the strain and wear and tear would have come from performing live on so many tours. To my ears, her voice changed markedly starting as far back as the time from Court and Spark to Hissing. I knew a girl in high school who was training to be an opera singer. Because of improper training (according our music teacher at school) she suffered almost permanent damage to her voice while still a teenager and her aspirations for a singing career were over. He used to tell us about this as a cautionary tale in choosing vocal coaches. There is also the hormonal aspect - I've read how hormones affect the vocal chords of some women as they age. Not that they make the voice deeper - but there is some kind of shortening or other physiological affect on the vocal chords. There was also an interview with Linda Thompson posted here a few months back that spoke of her almost complete loss of voice from just that which has now been resolved by botox injections. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:48:08 -0500 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V2002 #523 - Aging, smoking singing okay ... so which one of you are gonna tell Joni she's going through 'the change' ? ;-) Heather - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Jenny Goodspeed Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 1:48 PM To: kakkib@vzavenue.net; messling@enter.net; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #523 - Aging, smoking singing There is also the hormonal aspect - I've read how hormones affect the vocal chords of some women as they age. Not that they make the voice deeper - but there is some kind of shortening or other physiological affect on the vocal chords. There was also an interview with Linda Thompson posted here a few months back that spoke of her almost complete loss of voice from just that which has now been resolved by botox injections> I would say this is definitely one of many factors in Joni's voice change. I have heard Joan Baez mention on a couple of occasions that she had to see a voice teacher and learn to sing all over again when she hit menopause. Jenny Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:51:16 -0500 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V2002 #523 - Aging, smoking singing Bravo Catherine! Heather - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Catherine McKay Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 5:57 PM To: Murphycopy@aol.com; courtandspark@earthlink.net; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #523 - Aging, smoking singing --- Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: > Mack writes: > > << Sad, but obviously true, that the anti-smoking > agenda has even reached > here. >> > > Artists who have died of heroin overdoses don't get > the level of criticism > for their habits that Joni gets for her nicotine > addiction. > Kinda pointless. They're dead. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:00:14 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Subject: Guns (NJC) lol steve, this one's gonna look great in the archives....what happened to kate, she used to be such an avid pacifist? steve noted: >>Kate wrote: >i got a 45 & liked the results so i hope it is accurate! You got the Smith & Wesson? Or the Colt? Both are fairly accurate if used properly - you should probably got down to the range and blast through a few clips to get used to it. >i struggled with choosing my favorite color though! Gosh, they're available in colors now? My, times have changed... it used to be gun metal or basic black. Accurately yours,<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:00:21 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Aging, smoking singing i know quite a few singers who have had nodes on their vocal cords & surgery to remove them...a fellow musican told me joni had throat cancer awhile back...but i don't know if it is true... >>Kakki - is it you who said Joni had throat surgery? Do you know what it was for? << ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:00:22 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Aging, smoking singing thank you jenny & kakki for your intelligent & informed thoughts on the changes that happen to a woman's voice as she ages...i am sure menopause is a big factor & it affects women in so many different ways & to wildly different degrees...it is unfair & uninformed to assume that all the change is due to joni's smoking...i'm not a smoker, i have nothing to defend...but anyone who does not take the hormonal aspects of aging into consideration when speaking about voice change...well they are just talking out of their...you know what... jenny >>I would say this is definitely one of many factors in Joni's voice change. I have heard Joan Baez mention on a couple of occasions that she had to see a voice teacher and learn to sing all over again when she hit menopause.<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:03:59 -0500 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: Travelodge Hmmm... too bad we can't get E. H. Gombrich to dissertate for us on question #1. Vince and Kakki are the same person ... didn't anyone tell you?? ;-) Hmmm.. isn't Joni a specialist with open tunings? Of course Joni is better at some things than others ... that's why we listen to her music :-) Lovely thoughts, Gordon. Best always- Heather - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Gordon Mackie Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 5:06 AM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Travelodge Hi All you JMDlers.... Some brief thoughts for today are ; 1. Is there such a thing as good art? (an old philosophical question but it seems to be the root of a lot of discussion). Is all expression worthwhile no matter what the consequences. 2.How can I agree with Vince and Kakki...but I do 3. If Joni is against a "society of specialists", then it makes sense that she would 'particiapate' in many of the arts. Not as a (specialist) poet not as a painter but as a complete human being. 4. Is Joni 'better' at some things than others? I muse over these as rhetorical questions...you dont need to feel compelled to answer them...unless you can help. Gordon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 18:29:38 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Aging, smoking singing Kate wrote: > i know quite a few singers who have had nodes on their vocal cords & surgery > to remove them...a fellow musican told me joni had throat cancer awhile > back...but i don't know if it is true... She was diagnosed with it about 14 years ago but it wasn't true. (thankfully they didn't do radical surgery on her back then due to a misdiagnosis). Below is a relevant portion of an article that essentially relates what she spoke about at the PWWAM taping. I may be wrong about the throat surgery but could swear I heard about it somewhere. Maybe she will talk about it all in her bio. Joni Mitchell by Giles Smith London Independent October 29, 1994 Before Joni Mitchell consulted a mystic healer on the matter of the bleeding lesion in her throat, she asked some conventionally qualified, AMA doctors about it and they informed her it was what Sammy Davis Jr had. The late Sammy Davis Jr. They told her it was caused by smoking and gave her five years Five years later when Joni Mitchell tells this story, we are approximately half way through our interview and she is approximately half way through a packet of Marlboro Lights. Mitchell chain-smokes, and it's one of the smoothest chains you've ever seen. As her left hand stubs one out, her right is already loosening the next from the packet. She's been smoking since she was nine - maybe literally - and she wasn't about to quit simply because her voice packed up during a video shoot and doctors were showing her fibre optic shots of an open wound on her larynx. "I grasped that smoking was an irritant," she says, "I didn't believe it was a cause." So (and here the story takes a mildly Californian twist) she sought a second opinion from a Hawaiian mystic called Oleta. "She's a two-powered mystic. With you fully dressed and lying on a table, she can see into your body by going wall-eyed, seeing light and shadow through your clothes. I said, 'Look in my throat, Oleta. Do you see death there?' 'No,' she said. This sounds so crackpot: she sent me water. The water was electrically charged and commanded to sluice and slowly restore. She fixed me. "It's healed up. My voice is fragile, but I do believe I'm singing better than ever in my life. I'm on the brink of being a great singer. I've lost my high end but I don't miss it - you don't need it. I had three and a half octaves, all of that stratospheric stuff was just trying to impress. Billie Holiday had seven notes. And what she did with it." http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=169 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 18:32:09 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #523 - Aging, smoking singing Jenny wrote: > I have heard Joan Baez mention on a couple of > occasions that she had to see a voice teacher and > learn to sing all over again when she hit menopause. You don't know how many years I've held back and bitten my tongue from broaching this subject here until now. Must be the hormonal changes in me - acccck! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:33:46 -0500 From: vince Subject: njc questions from Gordon Gordon Mackie asked: 2.How can I agree with Vince and Kakki...but I do Heather replied: > Vince and Kakki are the same person ... didn't anyone tell you?? ;-) > I have been trying to think of an answer all day to this question. Kakki is the one with style, grace, class, beauty, charm, the ability to make great martinis, and the even greater ability to be the world's best host to everyone who comes near LA. She also is the one with great musical connections, a great job, and the intelligence and ability to put it all together. I am the one with no life, a keyboard that I overuse, a bunch of Eminem albums, and a grandson who likes to see movies over and over again. And both Kakki and I know where to hang out in the cyber world to encounter some of the best people ever. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:37:21 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: Subject: Guns (NJC) Kate Bennett wrote: > lol steve, this one's gonna look great in the archives....what happened to > kate, she used to be such an avid pacifist? Hell Kate, even a pacifist can enjoy target shooting. I am one hell of a shot myself. But don't archive this and ruin my reputation. Oops, too late - - Vince, NPIMH, happiness is a warm gun, yes it is, mama... bang bang shoot shoot > > > steve noted: > >>Kate wrote: > > >i got a 45 & liked the results so i hope it is accurate! > > You got the Smith & Wesson? Or the Colt? Both are fairly accurate > if used properly - you should probably got down to the range and > blast through a few clips to get used to it. > > >i struggled with choosing my favorite color though! > > Gosh, they're available in colors now? My, times have changed... > it used to be gun metal or basic black. > > Accurately yours,<< ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:43:10 EST From: StDoherty@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #362 In a message dated 11/26/2002 9:46:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, les@jmdl.com writes: > Why are you so sure it is all due to smoking? Thanks ... I'm a reformed smoker, but don't think that it's the root of all vocal evil. And when I'm 85 - I'm starting again (as long as I can tie my running shoes). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:43:50 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Carly Simon bares her soul (NJC) Thanks for posting this, Steve! If anybody has heard the Christmas cd I'd be very interested in knowing what you think. I've seen it but have hesitated about buying it. I'm very picky about Christmas music! And if someone has heard it and they didn't like it, DON'T YOU DARE SAY SO! **JUST KIDDING** Mark E in Seattle mulling over all the recent posts about critics and criticism > ...and that's a pretty sexy Christmas outfit she has! :) > > http://www.cnn.com/2002/SHOWBIZ/Music/11/26/carly.simon/index.html > -- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:45:35 -0500 From: vince Subject: Voice lessons now NJC > Jenny wrote: > > > I have heard Joan Baez mention on a couple of > > occasions that she had to see a voice teacher and > > learn to sing all over again when she hit menopause. > > In the current New Yorker, which I got in the mail last week, Paul Simon says that he was always troubled by his vocal range and feared it would limit his music - he can't write what he can't sing - so he has been taking voice lessons all his life. But I doubt there is a opera singer in the world who still doesn't practice voice, no matter how good she/he is. Tiger Woods still takes golf lessons. Before every baseball game, every player gets coaching and takes batting and infield practice. To take voice lessons is no big deal for anyone. Even I, believe it or not, even I practiced for hours over the course of weeks for my 5 minute gig chanting the litany at our community September 11th service. An d the only men-pause in my life was a dating slump. That will look good in the archives - I better continue to live in obscurity and die the same way because otherwise my biographer would have a field day researching these archives. Maybe the JMDL could raise big bucks by auctioning off the right to delete forever some of our posts... Vince ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:51:39 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Subject: Guns (NJC) vince >>Hell Kate, even a pacifist can enjoy target shooting. I am one hell of a shot myself. But don't archive this and ruin my reputation. Oops, too late<< you are right vince, & i did enjoy that...waaay back in girlscout camp (!)...i was actually quite good... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 18:59:21 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Nodes (njc) Kate, I found this little bit from some kind of a singers-ask-the-doctor website ;-) Apparently surgery is not good in the case of nodes (vs. polyps)! http://members.ozemail.com.au/~sollis/choir/singers-nodules.htm > i know quite a few singers who have had nodes on their vocal cords & surgery > to remove them ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:01:42 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: "Joni bewildered by plan....." > "And then I could come and sit there and when someone asks how I feel about > it I can honestly say, 'I'm beside myself'." > LMAO!! How can you not love this woman?? Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:09:32 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: njc questions from Gordon Vince! Only fragmented, fleeting parts of this is true!!! But i won't debate it with you LOL > Kakki is the one with style, grace, class, beauty, charm, the ability to make > great martinis, and the even greater ability to be the world's best host to > everyone who comes near LA. She also is the one with great musical > connections, a great job, and the intelligence and ability to put it all > together. This is 100% true, however: > And both Kakki and I know where to hang out in the cyber world to encounter > some of the best people ever. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:11:55 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Joni appearances Heather asked: > Has Joni really toured that extensively to have her voice affected that > much? Thanks to Simon's meticulous documentation over the years: http://www.jonimitchell.com/appearances.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:14:38 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Travelogue - some first/second/third impressions > Bob, trying to remember to say "I would have liked more Billy Preston" as > opposed to "There should be more Billy Preston" ;~) > Why not just say 'Mark E is full of s**t' and have done with it? M E I S ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:29:45 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Smokin voices Susan, Today while I was out on my smoking break (that quiet time where I sometimes ponder about topics on the list), I was running through my head the jmdler singers who smoke but who have not seemingly been affected by the awful habit and I swear you were right at the top of my list. (I've heard your absolutely amazing performance from the last J-Fest). I have an impressive list of members in mind but will not name them so as to not embarrass them. I've had the Joni smoking discussion with a couple of jmdler singers and they say, like you, that the problem is with her breathing - or lack of strong lung capacity probably due to the smoking. I would never disagree with that. What doesn't add up to me as far as blaming it completely on the smoking is that I heard her voice change significantly so many years ago - back in the 70s. The change to me seemed kind of sudden - that is why the smoking rationale doesn't add up 100%. And for many years, I was also very upset with it because I loved her early voice so much. I've thought for the past few years that she has consulted a vocal coach. I think she has had to do this. It also occurred to me, sadly, that maybe she is all too aware of how much her voice has changed and that may be one of the real reasons she keeps saying she is going to retire. I'm at the point where I don't care anymore what she sounds like - I'd just be happy for her to continue. T-Log sounds pretty good to me, all things considered. I also thought she sounded a lot like Peggy Lee. When BSN came out I played it for my parents to get their take on the remake of all their old fave songs, and my mother, who has heard the constantly playing of Joni's songs from the beginning, said very authoritatively "Now that is GOOD, she has FINALLY learned how to sing!" Go figure! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:32:14 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Nodes (njc) >Apparently surgery is not good in the case of nodes (vs. polyps)!< i guess that nodes is often used (incorrectly it seems) to describe polyps ... 2 of the singers i know had surgery & are better for it...they are full-time professionals who saw the best specialists available & my guess is that they actually had polyps... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 23:37:19 EST From: Chihuahua50@aol.com Subject: Travelogue I have been a Joni fan for over 30 years. I own all of her LPS/cassettes/CDS. There is no artist I think more highly of than Joni Mitchell. Travelogue, however, has been a major disappointment. It is definitely my least favorite CD of everything she has ever done. I've had it for a week now and listened to it every day since last Tuesday and several times in its entirety. I keep hoping something will kick in for me and I'll start liking it, but the last few listens have been painful. I have now retired it and filed it on my Joni shelf. Maybe I'll get it out and listen to it every now and again, but I really can't imagine why I would do that. I don't think there is a single song on Travelogue that is better than the original versions. The Travelogue versions aren't even interestingly different. Travelogue reminds me of a 101 Strings version of Joni Mitchell. Do you remember those? 101 Strings of the Rolling Stones, the Beatles, etc. Travelogue also reminds me of the times in the late 60s and 70s when older singers would try to perform some of the "hip" songs of the time. So you had Dinah Shore singing Paul Simon's 50 Ways to Leave Your Lover. But if some other singer, besides Joni, had made this album of Joni's songs she would be run out of town. Only Joni could get away with this, and get praised for it in some quarters. I know this is not a popular opinion on this list and at times I seriously have to wonder if I somehow got some kind of different version than the one everybody else is listening to. Maybe I got some kind of early demo version by mistake. The Emperor's New Clothes comes to mind.... Between the last two CDs and Joni's ranting in the press, my love for her is waning, and I can only hope that she will bounce back minus Larry Klein, and minus the orchestra, with some new material. Wouldn't it be nice to hear Joni in a studio with a guitar and a piano and some new songs? I'm not asking her to paint a starry night again. In fact, it seems like what she's attempted with Travelogue is to paint a starry night again, and it didn't work. Frank ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:54:01 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Nodes (njc) Kate wrote: > i guess that nodes is often used (incorrectly it seems) to describe polyps > ... 2 of the singers i know had surgery & are better for it...they are > full-time professionals who saw the best specialists available & my guess is > that they actually had polyps... Maybe nodes somehow has a nicer connotation than polyps. I didn't know the difference between the two until I read the Q&A. Kakki, needing some of those ENT specialists, too ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 23:59:53 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: Travelogue Oh my, Very well written post and all I can say is oh my. There may be others out there in JMDLer land who agree with you and have tried to say what you said so genteelly and gingerly that no one noticed. And here you went and said it. Oh my. There is at least one other JMDLer who is not me who is nodding in agreement with your post. I think of a few of the tracts rise above your description, but just a few. Your second paragraph is laugh at loud funny and too close to true to be anything but painful. Your last sentence is great. Oh my. Oh well, now I will be on the shit list with you. Oh my. I shant sign my name to this because I have less courage than you. Oh my. Chihuahua50@aol.com wrote: > I have been a Joni fan for over 30 years. I own all of her LPS/cassettes/CDS. > There is no artist I think more highly of than Joni Mitchell. Travelogue, > however, has been a major disappointment. It is definitely my least favorite > CD of everything she has ever done. I've had it for a week now and listened > to it every day since last Tuesday and several times in its entirety. I keep > hoping something will kick in for me and I'll start liking it, but the last > few listens have been painful. I have now retired it and filed it on my Joni > shelf. Maybe I'll get it out and listen to it every now and again, but I > really can't imagine why I would do that. I don't think there is a single > song on Travelogue that is better than the original versions. The Travelogue > versions aren't even interestingly different. > > Travelogue reminds me of a 101 Strings version of Joni Mitchell. Do you > remember those? 101 Strings of the Rolling Stones, the Beatles, etc. > Travelogue also reminds me of the times in the late 60s and 70s when older > singers would try to perform some of the "hip" songs of the time. So you had > Dinah Shore singing Paul Simon's 50 Ways to Leave Your Lover. But if some > other singer, besides Joni, had made this album of Joni's songs she would be > run out of town. Only Joni could get away with this, and get praised for it > in some quarters. > > I know this is not a popular opinion on this list and at times I seriously > have to wonder if I somehow got some kind of different version than the one > everybody else is listening to. Maybe I got some kind of early demo version > by mistake. The Emperor's New Clothes comes to mind.... > > Between the last two CDs and Joni's ranting in the press, my love for her is > waning, and I can only hope that she will bounce back minus Larry Klein, and > minus the orchestra, with some new material. > > Wouldn't it be nice to hear Joni in a studio with a guitar and a piano and > some new songs? I'm not asking her to paint a starry night again. In fact, > it seems like what she's attempted with Travelogue is to paint a starry night > again, and it didn't work. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 00:18:40 -0500 From: Janet Hess Subject: Re: Travelogue Vince, sweetie, I can't help myself. Some things that you work on are sometimes called "tracts." What Joni works - --and often plays-- on are sometimes called "tracks." I confess that I purely love your posts, and this one had the bonus of making my dimples ache. Cheerz, Janet and Deanna Ivy the Wonderkitty, neither of whom has yet heard "Travelogue" and both of whom are on the wrong tracts/tracks At 11:59 PM 11/26/2002 -0500, vince wrote: > >There is at least one other JMDLer who is not me who is nodding in agreement >with your post. I think of a few of the tracts rise above your >description, but >just a few. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 23:19:44 -0600 From: "mia ortlieb" Subject: Joni's statue Joni, on her own statue: "I'm beside myself". Joni, you are too much! Jimmy, I liked your mention of "I am not some stone commission Like a statue in a park". What about: "Joni's cast in bronze, and she's standing in a little park" or "In the court, they carve your legend with an extra seat" Anybody recall any other statue lyrics? Mia _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:29:58 -0800 From: "J. G." Subject: Re: Aging, smoking singing Just my two cents here... Pete Seeger is an example of someone who admits that improper vocal strain caused the marked decline of his voice. I know that Emmylou Harris smokes nearly as much as Joni does. Her voices has certainly changed from that "lear as a bell" brunette voice to the current "cracked crystal" sound of her silvery years. But I don't hear the same changes in her voice as Joni's. And she tours FAR more often. And it was only about four years ago, if memory serves, that Aretha Franklin quit her four pack a day habit. Certainly it had it's effects, she's said as much, but it did not give her a smoky rasp like The Mitch. And Leonard Cohen said not too long ago that he quit smoking some time ago and his voice continued to deepen. The mystery, well, deepens. Jerome p.s. some mention was made of vocal quality at PWAAM. I saw her perform a week before that taping and she sounded AMAZING. I believe she was sick during the taping or just prior to it. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 23:36:52 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Art criticism - why? At Studio 54 in Ethyl drag??? Love Paz on 11/25/02 9:59 PM, Murphycopy@aol.com at Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: > Paz writes: > > << absolutely was in mortal pain throughout the disco era. >> > > Funny . . . I was in moral ruin. > > XO, > > --Bob ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #527 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)