From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #523 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, November 25 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 523 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Joni art, poetry, critics ["kakki" ] "It's comin' on Christmas" (NJC) ["Paul Castle" ] Re: awww [colin ] Re: Best Movie of the Year 2003 njc [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Travelogue review - painful! [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Best Movie of the Year 2003 njc [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] George Harrison, NJC ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: njc why criticism - [] Lama (NJC) [Steve Dulson ] For Annie Lennox fans - new song! [Little Bird ] Annie Lennox - try this one? [Little Bird ] njc - new Annie Lennox song [Little Bird ] Re: Adam Durtz Diaries [again?] ["Sybil Skelton" ] thoughts on criticism & ageing ["Kate Bennett" ] art criticism Why? Because njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: travelogue [Alison E ] The Dr. Phil Test (NJC) ["Erica L. Trudelle" ] The ageing female voice [Little Bird ] Re: "It's comin' on Christmas" (NJC) ["Erica L. Trudelle" ] Make that AGING female voice [Little Bird ] my take on T'log [vince ] NJC Re Dr Phil Test ["chuty001" ] Re: George Harrison, NJC ["hell" ] NJC More new in town info ["chuty001" ] JM mention on All Things Considered [vince ] Re: Art criticism - why? [Michael Paz ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 00:50:38 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Joni art, poetry, critics Been catching up with the digests at smoe.org from the past few days (my computer crashed in a power outageFriday and ate all the mail in my inbox ;-( Lots of good reading on critics and art and everything else. My 3 cents - Joni's art - She has always told us she was a painter first - from the time she was a child. I know what that is like because I was painting everything in sight from the time I was a toddler. It was like I was born with that and I wasn't much good at anything else except words and a love of music throughout school. A love for, and desire to want to do nothing but, painting from such a young age is something that is so inherently buried in me that it will always want to express itself. I had to do other things to make a living (having no benefactors or patrons to support me) and had to suppress the painting to a large extent when I "grew up." I did find a way to excel at other things that were more immediately "marketable" and provided a steady income. In a sense, that is what Joni did, too. Her music may always be regarded as superior to her painting, but as she has said a few times, that was more of a "job" to her. But her first love and urge is to paint! I don't have the luxury of time to indulge myself in painting as much as I'd like to, but if, and when I ever do, that it where you will find me. Not to become prominent or famous in the art world, not to compete with thousands of other painters, not to have the esteemed critics approve of me, but because it is something that is essential for me to do. It is another way of expressing what one sees, hears, thinks and imagines where words and sometimes even music fails. The other side of the artist coin are people like I met in college who had never drawn or painted or created anything before who enrolled in the arts program saying "I am going to be one of the greatest artists of all time." Disturbing to me then and now. I seriously doubt that Joni likes to include her paintings with her music packaging because she wants to split peoples' critical attention. "Oh why are you forcing me to look at these paintings of yours when all I want to do is hear your lyrics and music?" I think she simply does it because that is part of who she is. Hopefully it doesn't *detract* from someone's enjoyment of the music. I really don't think she is doing it so that people will now consider her a great "artiste." I don't think all of Joni's lyrics are poetry, but some definitely strikes me as brilliant and genuine poetry. My academic pedigree and achievements are not in the stratospheric level, but not entirely pedestrian, either. Many of her lyrics rank right up there with, or better, a lot of what I was exposed to in my advanced English classes. A number of Dylan, Van Morrison and Stevie Wonder (oh and Jim Morrison ;-) songs also qualify as bonafide poetry in my book. Critics - I mostly avoid reading the "professional" ones in advance - they rarely help me in choosing whether to buy a piece of music or art or a movie ticket. A few of the ones who have reviewed Travelogue truly do not seem to have really listened to it or have just turned in a hack job. The most insightful reviews of Joni's and many other artists' music I've ever read have been right here on this list. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:53:19 -0000 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: "It's comin' on Christmas" (NJC) What albums are you giving for Chrimble, other than T...? PaulC ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:48:24 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: awww >If you say you like something, or don't like it, you are giving it a >thumbs up or thumbs down, just like a critic. You're just not >saying why. > sort of. except if i like something or not, has no bearing on the validty ofthe piece. Just cos I like it, doesn't make it good, or bad if I don't like it. If i took notice of other people's opinions, there would be a lot of music I didn't hear and films I didn't see! I make up my own mind. I have all of Joni's albums. Those I like and those I dislike are the same despite 5 .5 years on this list. >RR ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 08:20:37 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Best Movie of the Year 2003 njc In a message dated 11/24/2002 9:48:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, revrvl@chartermi.net writes: > For those handful of people who saw YTMT, picture our little Potter boy > and Ginny, and Ron Weasley and Hermione reaching their teen age years > and having some Tenoch, Julio, and Luisa type road trips > adventures! Yes, I can see the title on the marquee now..."Harry Potter & the Steaming Car Windows!" :~) Bob NP: Peter Case, "Horse & Crow" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 08:26:33 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Travelogue review - painful! In a message dated 11/24/2002 11:17:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, littlebird3333@yahoo.com writes: > I think her next CD should be a tribute to Tom Waits, since > she is sounding more and more like him. Pitiful! That guy is on to something...we've knocked that idea around here a couple of times, and I'd love to see Joni do it. Might even inspire her to come up with some new ideas. Holly Cole did a wonderful Waits tribute. Maybe Tom can show her how he writes and records new songs without a choreographer & a hair extension. ;~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 08:30:52 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Best Movie of the Year 2003 njc In a message dated 11/25/2002 8:20:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, SCJoniGuy writes: > Yes, I can see the title on the marquee now..."Harry Potter > & the Steaming Car Windows!" :~) Of course, he'd better protect himself or else the follow-up will be "Harry Potter & the case of the Genital Hogwarts" :~D Bob NP: Peter Case, "Satellite Beach" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:43:58 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: George Harrison, NJC Since Travelogue isn't coming out in France until tomorrow, I got the ex-Beatles' last recording instead, after a JMDLer recommended it. The following is not an album review or critic, just a few personal feelings. I was curious to find how such a spiritual man would write in anticipation of his expected death. Well the album isn't only about that, but there are some very introspective songs. For example: Pisces Fish: "And I'm a pisces fish And the river runs through my soul". Any Road: "Ouee it's a game Sometimes you're cool And sometimes you're lame Ah yeah it's somewhere And if you don't know where you're going Any road will take you there". " (Can only) Run So Far": "Lonely days blue guitar There's no escape Can only run so far. Any way you get the idea... "Looking for my Life" is another. By the way, could someone please explain the meaning of the verse from that song: "I never got any GCE's". The musical compositions are cool, won't knock you over but pleasant enough. George's slide is very nice. The mood is of soul searching, not depressing. In summary, it's what I expected from George and I wasn't disappointed.. Also, there's a collector's edition for just $3 more with a DVD, etc in an appropriate engraved black box. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 22:42:02 +0800 (PHT) From: Subject: Re: njc why criticism - Thanks, Vince for the sermon, oops, I mean, for sharing with us your insightful thoughts on criticism in general. Funny, but your admission that you learned a lot of things from the critique of others (New York Times, etc.) made me learn a lot about criticism itself from your post. And I thought I learned a lot of things already in Literary Criticism in graduate school. As a teacher, I do seek, nay, crave some form of critique from students, colleagues and even from the University grapevine to improve myself. Its funny because I sometimes get reactions from students concerning what I do in class that I don't consciously think about. Whether positive or negative comments, I welcome all because it gives me a chance to assess myself. Its like the title of Horace Silver's song: "permit me to introduce you to yourself". Its nice to know what students find special and distracting about me. And student evaluation of teachers are taken seriously even if students' comments are (most of the time) directly proportional to their final grades (Those who don't do well in class, criticize quite bitingly while those who get high grades offer paeans as comments. Either comments bring me back to orbit but I always prefer the latter.). Like you, I rely on a few critics whose way of dissecting and deconstructing a piece I respect (not necessarily agree with). But I realize that one gravitates towards critics whose perspectives coincide with your own. Although I am not suggesting I am even remotely in the same universe as she is/was, I like the late Pauline Kael's take on movies and the one review of hers that I virtually agreed with (and that later on became the reason why I seek out her reviews in other films) was GONE WITH THE WIND. My late father who himself was a cineaste raved about it and so did my mother and virtually every living soul I encountered. While I was awed by the epic sweep of the movie, I was oddly not touched by it. Kael said in one of her books that GWTW wasn't much and I was almost afraid for her because she just said things contrary to popular opinions of this classic film, and although I was not sure I understood everything she said about GWTW but I thought (in my moment of Warholian self-importance) I had this connection with her, no matter how impossibly fleeting. There were things she said in subsequent films that I disagreed but still respect. I don't think she was kowtowing to some producer or actress or cinematographer or director because she always spoke her mind and not worry about being critiqued by other critics or by the public. I read one of her last interviews in Premiere Magazine where she confessed that actually she felt bad being in a room or restaurant where a person she critiqued harshly was also in. She said it was painful but that, too bad, she had to say things based on how she saw it. I wonder how Gene Siskel, Paul Tatara, Peter Travers, Owen Gleiberman, Jay Cocks and even Libby Gelman Waxner (who in reality is really Paul Rudnick???) are holding up in these situations. As for books, I had this love/hate relationship with Michiko Kakutani. I read really nasty things she said about fiction writers (especially one of Jay McInerney's novels). But although I am this close to being repelled by her vitriol-spewing pen, she completely (ironically) convinced me with some of the things she said and I found myself agreeing, sometimes reluctantly (that type of silent agreement where your conscious self even refuses to acknowledge). And when McInerney lashed back at his critics in one Esquire Magazine issue, I was ambivalently happy and sad for the things he said against Kakutani and that other curmudgeon Jonathan Yardley. While I qualify as a McInerney fan, Kakutani's biting comments about his novels quite accurately hit the mark. Much as I dislike admitting this, I had a problem with authors appraising the work of fellow authors. I have this feeling that when they evaluate other authors' oeuvre, they are subtly saluting themselves in the process. I know its a sweeping generalization but I can't quite shake off that feeling, knowing fully well that many critics are authors themselves. I am not that comfortable when Joyce Carol Oates assesses Cynthia Ozick's non-linear works, but I like the point-by-point dissection of the innate similarities of Suzanne Vega's lyrics with that of minimalist poet/short story writer Raymond Carver. Its even trickier when I apply the same way I regard critics in the context of the academe. If a Peter Haggett from the Bristol School of Thought in Geography critiques the pioneering work of influential French geographer Paul Vidal de La Blache on regionalist theories, I would have a sneaking suspicion that Haggett's pro-thematic stand may have something to do with his thrashing La Blache's anti-topical stance. But of course, I am just assuming that THAT was his motive. Bottom line: I would rather that a person do not come from the same field as the one whose work he/she is evaluating. I prefer someone with a more or less sound grounding on the same field but can see beyond the politics of academic turfing and analyze if indeed there are hidden agenda involved or there is only misreading and miscontruing. But are there that many people who can competently gauge a person's critique against another and not embroil himself/herself in the process? Even as I say this I have to realize that usually the best people to give a sound critique of another person's work are those who work in the same field, but ..... Anyway, thanks very much Vince for making me introspect in ways I wouldn't imagine doing. And just for the record, I always like versions of Joni's songs where artists take her song to new planes or levels. I quite can't stand straight readings, especially those who (consciously or not) copy Joni's inflections. I havent said so to Bob M. yet but I do like Lydia van Dam, Jacqui Fitzgerald and Counting Crow's versions of Joni's songs. They take them to places that makes the listeners renew their appreciation of these songs (By the way, thanks Bob! your CDs arrived today and the graphics and careful attention to small details are much appreciated. I see you as a meticulous producer someday. Really.). Joseph in Manila (unusually talkative lately ... must be due to the northeast monsoon) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 08:12:30 -0800 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Lama (NJC) >Lama, who will be creaking into his 47th year this week. An advanced happy birthday to you, Lamadama, you child you... - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:34:42 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: For Annie Lennox fans - new song! For any fans of Annie Lennox, here is a leaked preview of the first single from her upcoming solo album, due out in early 2003. It's called A Thousand Beautiful Things. http://th.t.free.fr/Audio/Annie%20Lennox%20-%20(New%20song!)1,000%20Beautiful%20Things.mp3 - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:36:51 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Annie Lennox - try this one? Note: forwarded message attached. Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now X-Apparently-To: littlebird3333@yahoo.com via 216.136.174.74; 25 Nov 2002 09:32:16 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from 216.136.174.74 (HELO web12907.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.174.74) by mta152.mail.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 09:32:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [64.230.144.194] by web12907.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:32:16 PST Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:32:16 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird To: littlebird3333@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 863 X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/alternative by demime 0.97c X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain http://th.t.free.fr/Audio/Annie%20Lennox%20-%20(New%20song!)1,000%20Beautiful%20Things.mp3 Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:38:19 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: njc - new Annie Lennox song I guess the link has been shut down. It's a lovely song, though! I heard it just in time, I guess. - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:20:59 -0600 From: "Sybil Skelton" Subject: Re: Adam Durtz Diaries [again?] This reminded me - I saw on Counting Crows' website that they have re-recorded Big Yellow Taxi with Vanessa Carlton and are releasing it as a single, complete with video. I listened to the song at the website, and it's pretty "poppy" sounding, so maybe radio will actually play it and earn Joni many more royalty pennies. Sybil _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:29:27 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Adam Duritz Diaries [again?] In a message dated 11/25/2002 1:20:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, sybilskelton@hotmail.com writes: > I saw on Counting Crows' website that they have > re-recorded Big Yellow Taxi with Vanessa Carlton and are > releasing it as a > single, complete with video. That's pretty interesting, Sybil, and a bit ironic that it seems to be the track from Hard Candy that's generating the most buzz. Have they released "Butterfly In Reverse" as a single? I think that's far & away the best thing on the disc. Like you say, good news for Joni, to be sure! Bob NP: Cat Power, "Peking Saint" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:41:09 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: happy birthdays njc to brei & lama, hope you guys had a wonderful birthday! i think we should all go over to lama's & listen to t'log on his cool stereo... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:41:11 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: thoughts on criticism & ageing andrew wrote >>>There are not that many office furniture critics, although they probably do exist<<< lol, andrew...that would be my husband, who as a designer, has strong feelings about such things! but really what i wanted to say is i really enjoy your thoughtful posts...how old are you? much wisdom for someone who i think said they were quite young... re: that amazon review....no doubt joni's voice has been affected by smoking (if my lungs could take it i might think of taking up smoking as i love that smoky voice...just kidding) what few seem to be talking about or taking into consideration is the natural ageing of a voice, especially a woman's, that happens anyway...& it really bugs me when people talk about her voice in comparison to when she was younger...i hear many of the same qualities in her voice now that was there when she was younger...but it is a voice that has aged... this is the work & the voice of an almost 60 year old woman...& i applaud her for her vitality at this stage of her life- to take on such a monumental project, not too just rest on her laurels...but to still be taking the risk, because it is quite a risk she took, redoing her songs in a new format & singing them again ... just look at all the criticism she is getting, most of which is in some way, comparing her songs & voice to the her original versions...honestly, i love both of her voices...the voice when she was young & the voice she has now...they are not exclusive of each other... this is not meant as a criticim of those who do not like the record for whatever reasons...there are plenty of things i just don't like & no argument from anyone can change my mind... however, there is a nagging thought that keeps coming up for me...& i may take some flack for this from those who will insist this is not why they do not like her voice...but i bring it up as a question to see if it is worth considering... if it is possible to put the smoking issue aside for one moment....is there some insidious youth culture in all of us (i include myself) that is afraid of ageing which makes it hard for us to accept the natural ageing process- especially that of a woman....it is so common to admire someone for their youthfulness rather than admire them for their age...& do we have difficulty seeing the beauty of age because we are so conditioned to only seeing the beauty of youth? why can't we see that both are beautiful in their own way? ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:41:13 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: art criticism Why? Because njc vince wrote >>>Which recorded version of Woodstock do we like best? The answer is a critical study of her various versions - not that critical means negative, it simply means a thoughtful examination based on one's knowledge, insights, and feelings. <<< good points vince...to the above question i would have to say all of them! maybe it's just me, but i really like hearing songs in a wide variety of arrangements, especially when it is the artist doing so...i know others are more likely to want to hear versions that stay close to the original version... this reminds me of my friend who told me about a bruce springsteen concert she went to years ago in town (she is a huge fan)...he played solo & really changed much of the arrangements around...different melodies, etc...she said a lot of people really were disappointed in the show...they just wanted bruce to be doing the songs they way they were used to hearing them... another example...hearing CPR doing a rocking version of 8 miles high (byrds)...i LOVED it...some didn't... interesting... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:49:44 -0800 (PST) From: Alison E Subject: Re: travelogue ok, folks, just got my shiny-wrapped-in-plastic copy of travelogue...it is stunning, more on that later...but first--- WHERE THE HELL IS DON ROWE WHEN YOU NEED HIM! the version of "you dream flat tires" on this album is AMAZING! it's like the song finally figured out what it is! and i LIKED the version on WTRF! man, it's really a brilliant interpretation. and now playing is "love"...seriously, i didn't think i was going to dig this. alison e. in slc np: joni, "love", travelogue. Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:53:08 -0500 From: "Erica L. Trudelle" Subject: The Dr. Phil Test (NJC) I'm just curious to see what other Joniphiles receive on this test! I got a 43 (just in case anyone wanted to know):) Good luck! Erica Dr. Phil gave this test on Oprah she got a 38. >Some folks pay a lot of money to find this stuff out. >Read on, this is very interesting! Don't be overly sensitive! The >following is pretty accurate. And only takes 2 minutes. Take this test >for yourself and send it to your friends, including the one who sent >it, and let them know who you are. The person who sent it placed their >score in the subject box. Please do the same before forwarding to your >friends. Don't peek but begin the test as you scroll down and answer. >Answers are for who you are now...... not who you were in the past. >Have pen or pencil and paper ready. This is a real test given by the >Human Relations Dept. at many of the major corporations today. >It helps them get better insight concerning their employees >and prospective employees. >It's only 10 simple questions, so...... grab a pencil and paper, >keeping track of your letter answers. >Make sure to change the subject of the e-mail to read YOUR total. When >you are finished, forward this to everyone you know, and also send >it to the person who sent this to you. >Make sure to put YOUR score in the subject box. >Ready?? Begin... > >========================================================== >1. When do you feel your best? >a) in the morning >b) during the afternoon & and early evening >c) late at night > >2. You usually walk... >a) fairly fast, with long steps >b) fairly fast, with little steps >c) less fast head up, looking the world in the face >d) less fast, head down >e) very slowly > >3. When talking to people you... >a) stand with your arms folded >b) have your hands clasped >c) have one or both your hands on your hips >d) touch or push the person to whom you are talking >e) play with your ear, touch your chin, or smooth your hair > >4. When relaxing, you sit with... >a) your knees bent with your legs neatly side by side >b) your legs crossed >c) your legs stretched out or straight >d) one leg curled under you > >5. When something really amuses you, you react with... >a) a big, appreciative laugh >b) a laugh, but not a loud one >c) a quiet chuckle >d) a sheepish smile > >6. When you go to a party or social gathering you... >a) make a loud entrance so everyone notices you >b) make a quiet entrance, looking around for someone you know >c) make the quietest entrance, trying to stay unnoticed > >7. You're working very hard, concentrating hard, and you're >interrupted, do you... >a) welcome the break >b) feel extremely irritated >c) vary between these two extremes > >8. Which of the following colors do you like most? >a) Red or orange >b) black >c) yellow or light blue >d) green >e) dark blue or purple >f) white >g) brown or gray > >9. When you are in bed at night, in those last few moments before going >to sleep, you lie... >a) stretched out on your back >b) stretched out face down on your stomach >c) on your side, slightly curled >d) with your head on one arm >e) with your head under the covers > >10. You often dream that you are... >a) falling >b) fighting or struggling >c) searching for something or somebody >d) flying or floating >e) you usually have dreamless sleep >f) your dreams are always pleasant > >POINTS: >1. (a) 2 (b) 4 (c) 6 >2. (a) 6 (b) 4 (c) 7 (d) 2 (e) 1 >3. (a) 4 (b) 2 (c) 5 (d) 7 (e) 6 >4. (a) 4 (b) 6 (c) 2 (d) 1 >5. (a) 6 (b) 4 (c) 3 (d) 5 (e) 2 >6. (a) 6 (b) 4 (c) 2 >7. (a) 6 (b) 2 (c) 4 >8. (a) 6 (b) 7 (c) 5 (d) 4 (e) 3 (f) 2 (g) 1 >9. (a) 7 (b) 6 (c) 4 (d) 2 (e) 1 >10. (a) 4 (b) 2 (c) 3 (d) 5 (e) 6 (f) 1 > >Now add up the total number of points. >OVER 60 POINTS: >Others see you as someone they should "handle with care". You're seen> >as vain, self-centered, and who is extremely dominant. Others may >admire you, wishing they could be more like you, but don't always trust >you, hesitating to become too deeply involved with you. > >51 TO 60 POINTS: >Others see you as an exciting, highly volatile, rather impulsive >personality; a natural leader, who's quick to make decisions, though >not always the right ones. They see >you as bold and adventuresome, someone who will try anything once; >someone >who takes chances and enjoys an adventure. >They enjoy being in your company because of the excitement you >radiate. > >41 TO 50 POINTS: >Others see you as fresh, lively, charming, amusing, practical, and >always interesting; someone who's constantly in the center of >attention, but sufficiently well-balanced not to let it go to their >head. They also see you as kind, considerate, and understanding; >someone who'll always cheer them up and help them out. > >31 TO 40 POINTS: >Others see you as sensible, cautious, careful & practical. They see you >as clever, gifted, or talented, but modest. Not a person who makes >friends too quickly or easily, but someone who's extremely loyal to >friends you do make and who >expect the same loyalty in return. Those who really get to know you >realize it takes a lot to shake your trust in your friends, but equally that it takes you a long time to get over it if that trust is ever broken. > >21 TO 30 POINTS: Your friends see you as painstaking >and fussy. They see you as very cautious, extremely careful, a slow and >steady plodder. It would really surprise them if you ever did something >impulsively or on the spur of the moment, expecting you to examine >everything carefully from every angle and then, usually decide against >it. They think this reaction is caused partly by your careful nature. > >UNDER 21 POINTS: People think you are shy, nervous, >and indecisive, someone who needs looking after, who >always wants someone else to make the decisions & >who doesn't want to get involved with anyone or >anything. They see you as a worrier who always sees >problems that don't exist. Some people think you're >boring. Only those who know you well know that you >aren't. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:13:17 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: The ageing female voice Wonderful point, Kate. I do think Joni's voice has changed drastically and a lot of it is probably to do with the simple process of ageing. The most marked difference came between Wild Things Run Fast and Dog Eat Dog, I think. After that it remained more or less consistent until Taming The Tiger, when I noticed a further lowering - "The general offered no apologies..." It rebounded quite a bit for Both Sides Now and on Travelogue it's back down to the base, and much dryer in sound, a thinner voice than on Both Sides Now. I am thinking of some of the other older women in music, like Tina Turner and Cher, and have to conclude that their voices have not changed as radically as Joni's has, which leads me to believe that it is the smoking that has affected it so noticeably. I have quite a bit of respect for Joni as an ageing woman in the entertainment business, but I think that's rare in our culture. She is the only woman her age who acts her age, really. She artistically writes about and sings about the themes and emotions that affect people of her generation, something other women have abandoned in favour of facelifts and tight leather outfits. (I'm refering to Cher's plastic visage and Tina Turner's dominatrix outfit from her previous tour.) I think Tina Turner is an incredible performer, but I think so many women love her precisely because she doesn't act her age. "Can you believe she's 63?" they all say. Yes, it's hard to believe that a 63 year-old woman can look so youthful, dance and kick in high-heels and rock the night away with the best of them, but it's not normal. She is a rarity. Our youth-obsessed culture, however, sees her as a beakon to women everywhere, like some final vestige of hope that 'you too can beat ageing!' Wrikles? Tina Turner doesn't have wrinkes! Lack of energy? Tina Turner runs 5 miles a day! It's unrealistic for the majority of women and yet I heard Oprah Winfrey say the other day that Tina Turner is her inspiration for how to age gracefully. What about Joni? Is she not ageing gracefully because she is content being a 59 year-old woman who LOOKS like a 59 year-old woman? I think Joni is ageing much more gracefully than Tina Turner, but tell that to a world obsessed with night creams and tummy-tucks. A few years ago Natalie Merchant was on The View and she pointed out that Joni Mitchell was the only female singer/songwriter she could think of who actually wrote songs about ageing and has invented a role for herself as an older female musician in a youth-obsessed culture. Right on, Natalie! I was talking to a friend of mine the other day about Joni's later body of work and he said that it reminded him of listening to a grandmother singing songs. And that's exactly what it is! I thought it was a beautiful observation. And there is a comfort in Joni's new voice, something familar and calm. It's dripping with wisdom and experience, which is so rare to hear these days. With Joni Mitchell, one is consistently witnessing history in the making. And the same holds true with Travelogue. She is breaking ground and the masses just don't see it yet. - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:15:03 -0500 From: "Erica L. Trudelle" Subject: Re: "It's comin' on Christmas" (NJC) Paul wrote: What albums are you giving for Chrimble, other than T...? I am giving several CD's to my good friends Susie and Josh, both of them know nothing about Joni and I have taken it upon myself to "educate" them. They are open minded people so it should be fun. I am getting them: "Blue" & "LOTC" "The Last Temptation of Christ"-soundtrack by Peter Gabriel "Jill Scott;820"- Jill Scott (this disc ROCKS!!) Hopefully they enjoy them as much as I have, Erica _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:27:16 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: The Dr. Phil Test (NJC) Just for fun Erica, and it was. I scored a 39. mack > I'm just curious to see what other Joniphiles receive on this test! I got a > 43 (just in case anyone wanted to know):) > Good luck! > Erica > > > Dr. Phil gave this test on Oprah she got a 38. > >Some folks pay a lot of money to find this stuff out. > >Read on, this is very interesting! Don't be overly sensitive! The > >following is pretty accurate. And only takes 2 minutes. Take this test > >for yourself and send it to your friends, including the one who sent > >it, and let them know who you are. The person who sent it placed their > >score in the subject box. Please do the same before forwarding to your > >friends. Don't peek but begin the test as you scroll down and answer. > >Answers are for who you are now...... not who you were in the past. > >Have pen or pencil and paper ready. This is a real test given by the > >Human Relations Dept. at many of the major corporations today. > >It helps them get better insight concerning their employees > >and prospective employees. > >It's only 10 simple questions, so...... grab a pencil and paper, > >keeping track of your letter answers. > >Make sure to change the subject of the e-mail to read YOUR total. When > >you are finished, forward this to everyone you know, and also send > >it to the person who sent this to you. > >Make sure to put YOUR score in the subject box. > >Ready?? Begin... > > > >========================================================== > >1. When do you feel your best? > >a) in the morning > >b) during the afternoon & and early evening > >c) late at night > > > >2. You usually walk... > >a) fairly fast, with long steps > >b) fairly fast, with little steps > >c) less fast head up, looking the world in the face > >d) less fast, head down > >e) very slowly > > > >3. When talking to people you... > >a) stand with your arms folded > >b) have your hands clasped > >c) have one or both your hands on your hips > >d) touch or push the person to whom you are talking > >e) play with your ear, touch your chin, or smooth your hair > > > >4. When relaxing, you sit with... > >a) your knees bent with your legs neatly side by side > >b) your legs crossed > >c) your legs stretched out or straight > >d) one leg curled under you > > > >5. When something really amuses you, you react with... > >a) a big, appreciative laugh > >b) a laugh, but not a loud one > >c) a quiet chuckle > >d) a sheepish smile > > > >6. When you go to a party or social gathering you... > >a) make a loud entrance so everyone notices you > >b) make a quiet entrance, looking around for someone you know > >c) make the quietest entrance, trying to stay unnoticed > > > >7. You're working very hard, concentrating hard, and you're > >interrupted, do you... > >a) welcome the break > >b) feel extremely irritated > >c) vary between these two extremes > > > >8. Which of the following colors do you like most? > >a) Red or orange > >b) black > >c) yellow or light blue > >d) green > >e) dark blue or purple > >f) white > >g) brown or gray > > > >9. When you are in bed at night, in those last few moments before going > >to sleep, you lie... > >a) stretched out on your back > >b) stretched out face down on your stomach > >c) on your side, slightly curled > >d) with your head on one arm > >e) with your head under the covers > > > >10. You often dream that you are... > >a) falling > >b) fighting or struggling > >c) searching for something or somebody > >d) flying or floating > >e) you usually have dreamless sleep > >f) your dreams are always pleasant > > > >POINTS: > >1. (a) 2 (b) 4 (c) 6 > >2. (a) 6 (b) 4 (c) 7 (d) 2 (e) 1 > >3. (a) 4 (b) 2 (c) 5 (d) 7 (e) 6 > >4. (a) 4 (b) 6 (c) 2 (d) 1 > >5. (a) 6 (b) 4 (c) 3 (d) 5 (e) 2 > >6. (a) 6 (b) 4 (c) 2 > >7. (a) 6 (b) 2 (c) 4 > >8. (a) 6 (b) 7 (c) 5 (d) 4 (e) 3 (f) 2 (g) 1 > >9. (a) 7 (b) 6 (c) 4 (d) 2 (e) 1 > >10. (a) 4 (b) 2 (c) 3 (d) 5 (e) 6 (f) 1 > > > >Now add up the total number of points. > >OVER 60 POINTS: > >Others see you as someone they should "handle with care". You're seen> > >as vain, self-centered, and who is extremely dominant. Others may > >admire you, wishing they could be more like you, but don't always trust > >you, hesitating to become too deeply involved with you. > > > >51 TO 60 POINTS: > >Others see you as an exciting, highly volatile, rather impulsive > >personality; a natural leader, who's quick to make decisions, though > >not always the right ones. They see > >you as bold and adventuresome, someone who will try anything once; > >someone > >who takes chances and enjoys an adventure. > >They enjoy being in your company because of the excitement you > >radiate. > > > >41 TO 50 POINTS: > >Others see you as fresh, lively, charming, amusing, practical, and > >always interesting; someone who's constantly in the center of > >attention, but sufficiently well-balanced not to let it go to their > >head. They also see you as kind, considerate, and understanding; > >someone who'll always cheer them up and help them out. > > > >31 TO 40 POINTS: > >Others see you as sensible, cautious, careful & practical. They see you > >as clever, gifted, or talented, but modest. Not a person who makes > >friends too quickly or easily, but someone who's extremely loyal to > >friends you do make and who > >expect the same loyalty in return. Those who really get to know you > >realize it takes a lot to shake your trust in your friends, but equally > that it takes you a long time to get over it if that trust is ever broken. > > > >21 TO 30 POINTS: Your friends see you as painstaking > >and fussy. They see you as very cautious, extremely careful, a slow and > >steady plodder. It would really surprise them if you ever did something > >impulsively or on the spur of the moment, expecting you to examine > >everything carefully from every angle and then, usually decide against > >it. They think this reaction is caused partly by your careful nature. > > > >UNDER 21 POINTS: People think you are shy, nervous, > >and indecisive, someone who needs looking after, who > >always wants someone else to make the decisions & > >who doesn't want to get involved with anyone or > >anything. They see you as a worrier who always sees > >problems that don't exist. Some people think you're > >boring. Only those who know you well know that you > >aren't. > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:34:37 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: The ageing female voice I just realized I "outed" myself as a viewer of Oprah Winfrey and The View. Don't beat me, please... - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:37:06 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Make that AGING female voice I'm a bad speller. I spelled beacon wrong too. Don't beat me, please... - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 16:59:10 -0500 From: vince Subject: my take on T'log This review will verify why some people hate critics! T'log was better than I thought it would be based on the sound clips. What I really felt over all was that this was like a very special evening with Rosemary Clooney or Peggy Lee or Frank Sinatra or Tony Bennett... not is not a negative comment, it just had that feel to me. As a fan, I would love it and be on my feet applauding were I in the audience. If I wasn't already a fan, no big deal. The loss of voice really got to me. I don't think it is just aging. Cough. Cough. "Love" did nothing for me the first time around and failed to do it for me on this. And Joni's voice doesn't rise above the orchestration. I finally heard Joni sing a version of Woodstock that I don't care for. And I hated the chorus in Sire of Sorrows and God must be a boogie man. Edit out those chorus singers and I would have loved these versions. All the passion and anger that drove For the Roses, and made it such a great recording,, is missing. The sense of an intimate conversation that was not ever vocalized but more of a continual vapor thought process crystallized in a moment for our hearing which is Amelia is missing. For the rest, I was reminded of why I am a Joni fan, why she is an all-time person with me. Slouching and Judgment (why the extra "e" on the track listings?) were made for this treatment. I'd like to remix them even more with a classical bent. Borderline, Dawntreader, and Last Time I Saw Richard were excellent. Refuge of the Road and Hejira lost their sense of freedom and movement, but these were certainly interesting interpretations. I suspect I won't play this much - I don't have those cultured evenings at home where I listen to classy music, and in the car, I like something that I can sing along to and the phrasing of these interpretations are so particularly Joni that I don't think I'll ever sing along with them. On the other hand, I listened to these while driving on open road in open country and the album lends itself towards that listening location - - space does affect our perception of what we hear, and perhaps it was where I was physically that allowed much of T'log to fill up all the space around me with beauty. I'm glad that I did not hear this the first time in an enclosed room. It was just so perfectly set for listening to in the wide open spaces. I sure would like new Joni lyrics for Circle Game. I wrote my own new lyrics years ago. The span of life of the song sounded so vast when I was 20 (and I wasn't as jaded as the boy in the song at 20) but with some new lyrics reflecting a (our) longer life span, it would be a life time anthem. It almost cramps the album to end with a song that thinks turning 20 is a final stage in the circle of life. I was thinking as I was listening about Joni and Eminem. Yes, of course I was. One artist got her ground of being of being in Detroit, one totally developed in Detroit, and both identify heavily with African American music. And for all the rap (clever pun) on Em being white in a black genre, at least he has never appeared on an album cover as black persons of various genders. Joni has always thought of much of her music as African American (I think I have read this in her interviews through the years). So I would like to hear Joni do her next set of remixes and interpretations - not with a rapper, that is just not her - but with a great blues band. I think that would pick up the rhythms and really put her music in some contexts where it would be so natural. Joni with her cigarette singing the blues with a great band at 2 am - now that I would love to see and ever more hear. Joni, come back to Detroit, or Chicago, or Memphis, someplace where the blues are thick and heavy and infuse yourself with some blues rhythms and give us that album... I think your whole oeuvre cries out for you to do that interpretation next. Just my random and meaningless thoughts. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 17:34:22 -0500 From: "chuty001" Subject: NJC Re Dr Phil Test I would have answered non of the above to at least five of them but answered as accurately as I could. 42 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:45:29 +1300 From: "hell" Subject: Re: George Harrison, NJC Laurent wrote: > "Looking for my Life" is another. By the way, could someone please explain > the meaning of the verse from that song: > "I never got any GCE's". GCE's are the most basic UK school qualification (you get one GCE for each subject taken, eg. Mathematics, History, etc.) - similar to a high school diploma, I think. I'm sure one of the UK jmdlers can be more specific! Hell ___________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman Hell's Home Page - NEW & IMPROVED! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:26:30 -0500 From: "chuty001" Subject: NJC More new in town info I got a couple of E-mails asking for a little more info about my self. This is one of the friendliest groups I've been in or it's the old know your enemy. Time will tell. I'm in Toronto Canada celebrating birthday week. I have a wife and 3 kids. We all have birthdays between Nov16 and the 27. Not planned that's just the way the cookie crumbles. I'm a song writer, guitar player, portraitist, carpenter, drywaller, etc... and earn a living fixing gym equipment and doing renovations on the side. All the trades allow me to keep making music and drawing pictures with out having to involve money. I could go on like this for many years as you are sure to find out so let me end it here by saying it's very nice to finally find a place where people know who Joni is with out any effort on my part. Dead Fred ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:35:28 -0500 From: vince Subject: JM mention on All Things Considered Since I wasn't paying attention very closely, I kept missing the first part of the announcement on All Things Considered that ended with "Joni Mitchell's new album which spans the length of her career." And then again, I am not even sure if that was on nation wide All Things Considered, or a sponsorship note from a Michigan sponsor on WUOM (University of Michigan). It possibly was Borders book store sponsoring the local broadcast or the national broadcast since I very faintly remembering hearing the word Borders when I wasn't listening. It was on at least twice so you'd think I would have caught it the second time, but nooooooo.... Just nice to hear Joni's name on the radio. Too bad I have no clue (how often that is true) about what was being said. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 17:42:14 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Art criticism - why? Hi Andrew- I am one of those freaks that you might be hard pressed to find. I don't mind coming out of the closet about artists I do like that are not necessarily cool to like. Britney is one of them that I DO like. I am not crazy for her, but I "get it" so to speak. I also LOVE Nsync and Backstreet Boys, Michael Jackson, Bee Gees (early years pre disco), Bread (yes I love that song Diary and If and It Don't Matter to Me and Guitar Man) and I even like Celine Dion (although I don't own any of her records. But then I have been up close and personal with lots of them and worked along side of them which might cause me a little biased. I usually prefer not to divulge in writing my dislikes, but for the sake of argument I can't stand Madonna or Donna Summer, absolutely was in mortal pain throughout the disco era. There is not that much music that I dislike. My friend Zachary Richard might have a cut on the new Celine album and I am praying for this cause I know it can help with his retirement. It's great to have diversity and people liking different stuff. What is really a drag is when people put down other people for their dislikes or likes for that matter. Best Paz P.S. You ought to hear this song my friend Beth Patterson wrote to the tune of the theme from Titanic. She works in an Irish bar a lot and when the movie came out she got asked all the time to play that song. It really is hysterical. I need to check and see if she has the lyrics posted some where and post them here. on 11/24/02 8:08 PM, Little Bird at littlebird3333@yahoo.com wrote: > I think we'd be hard pressed to find a major supporter of Britney Spears on > this list, and even if there was one, he or she would think twice before > coming out of the closet about it. Because, as critics (and we are all > critics!), we have defined Britney Spears as a lesser artist than Joni > Mitchell. And, she is a lesser artist than Joni Mitchell - it's just a fact of > life. But who defines that? Would a 16 year-old fan of Britney agree with that > evaluation or would she defend Britney to the end and denigrate Joni in the > process? Borderlines, baby. Borderlines. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #523 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)